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Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?  
User currently offlineEpten From Macedonia, joined Sep 2007, 184 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 18215 times:

Tight turns, IR guided missiles, guns, heavy g-loads, steep climbs and all that... What do you think, which of the current fighter aircraft seems to be best at it? Let's, for a moment, forget about stealthiness and BWR engagements. It's a clear day with beautiful weather. If you were to choose an aircraft for a close 1 on 1 engagement, which would it be?

MiG-29OVT?
Su-30?
F-22?
Typhoon?

163 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineA320ajm From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 18169 times:

I *think* the F22 would be the best, due to all the secrecy around it, and i believe it has the latest technology e.g. the best stealth system. I think the Eurofighter would have a good chance as well.
Feel free to criticise!
Regards
A320ajm



If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
User currently offlineEpten From Macedonia, joined Sep 2007, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 18156 times:



Quoting A320ajm (Reply 1):
I *think* the F22 would be the best, due to all the secrecy around it, and i believe it has the latest technology e.g. the best stealth system.

On a clear day within visual range radar invisibility is is not much of an advantage. Guns don't care about the RCS.


User currently offlineArniepie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 18143 times:

There are also some older ones that can hold their own in a dogfight.
A lot of them are flown by very experienced (2000 hrs+) pilots that can get the full potential out of their airplane.
I'm thinking about
-F16
-M2000 (late models)
-Harrier (only with real TVC)
-F15

As for the new fighters I would take the EF, F22, Rafale, they seem to be the top dogs in this discipline for a long time to come.



[edit post]
User currently offlineChecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 18093 times:

I'd take the F-22A. If that wasn't available, then I'd go for the Eurofighter. Its has though, already been proven that its difficult to lock on an IR missile unless your right behind the Raptor.

I'm only going with the F-22A because of its excess power and maneuverability edge...not stealth reasons...the thread starter clearly ruled out a BVR situation in this case.


User currently offlineFVTu134 From Russia, joined Aug 2005, 173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 18054 times:

Why does everybody here forget about the SU-27 Series (mainly -30/-35). When stealthiness is out of the picture and pure aerodynamics come into play I doubt many F-15 and even F-22 drivers would be happy to be up against a Flanker.

They can win in the electronics department (although that gap is not as big as it used to be) but when it's within visual range the Flanker has a lot of potential.

Just my two cents



who decided that a Horizon should be HORIZONtal???
User currently offlineChecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 18033 times:



Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 5):
Why does everybody here forget about the SU-27 Series (mainly -30/-35).

Well I didn't forget them, just wouldn't want to be in one. Not sure about the Typhoon, but they certainly wouldn't hold any special advantage over the Raptor maneuverability wise. Course, they can sling a lot more missiles though...


User currently offlineHighlander0 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 18013 times:



Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 5):
SU-27

Well, maybe (not likely to happen) some RAF Typhoon pilots could let us know what went down when the IAF came over to the UK?

 Big grin  Big grin  Big grin


User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 18007 times:

I would say Typhoon and latest Flanker with 3d Thrust Vector Control

User currently offlineA320ajm From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days ago) and read 17937 times:



Quoting Highlander0 (Reply 7):
Well, maybe (not likely to happen) some RAF Typhoon pilots could let us know what went down when the IAF came over to the UK

Thats a low blow to the Russians, but funny  biggrin 
LMAO
A320ajm



If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
User currently offlineJackonicko From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2008, 472 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 17832 times:

MiG-29OVT with a decent HMS would take a lot of beating, 1 v 1.

Once Typhoon's helmet is operational, it will be a very formidable WVR aeroplane, but until then aircraft with thrust vectoring will present a real challenge, especially if they have a helmet.


User currently offlineMciguy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 17763 times:



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 10):
Once Typhoon's helmet is operational, it will be a very formidable WVR aeroplane, but until then aircraft with thrust vectoring will present a real challenge, especially if they have a helmet.

Well, the AIM-9X was originally designed with the F-22 and it's small shoulder bays in mind. If I'm not mistaken, the plan is to eventually equip the Raptor with an HMD system a la the F-35. The F-35 isn't even being built with a HUD in favor of the HMD.
I agree with Checksixx, BTW. A fact that's often lost is that the Raptor was also designed with IR cross section in mind. The composite skin just won't conduct heat like metal will. The best hope with the Raptor is that you sneak up behind him with IRST and get a lucky shot, not likely with modern AWACS in the battle.
I think with the way things are shaking out in the world, we probably won't have to wait more than ten years to find out for sure. Everyone and their brother are buying SUs and MiGs nowadays.  Smile



Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 17613 times:

You can't say which is best unless you clearly define the scenario objectives and the rules of engagement. Fighter pilots don't just go into a furball for nothing - they are trying to accomplish something.

For example, if it is just an air superiority/attrition campaing, then the F22 would just supercruise away and re engage BVR or WVR using stealth. If on the other hand it is defending a high value target (e.g. a fleet of tankers or an AWACS) against a single intruder, then it will be a single head-on pass with several missiles launched by the Raptor (and probably the adversary) as soon as they are within missile parameters; in which case turn performance means nothing. The intruder would die and the Raptor would probably also be destroyed.

So you need to postulate a scenario if you want to judge aircraft performance. In any case, in the age of AIM9x and the like, all of the planes mentioned here that got within visual range of one another with both pilots having tally-ho would result in both planes lost most of the time. I launch mine and before mine get to you you launch yours. Mine get you. Yours get me.



Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1689 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 17603 times:

Su-35.

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 9):
Thats a low blow to the Russians, but funny

Why?. The results are not going to be published, and pretty much anything else, most likely than not, will be speculation or assumptions.


User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 17543 times:



Quoting Baron95 (Reply 12):

I agree but again, with modern AWACS in the mix, there's little chance those adversaries will get anywhere near a high-value asset like a tanker. They'd likely get picked up at several times the distance of their weapons range and have a pack of Raptors on them like bears on honey.
You made another good point, the Raptor's range and supercruise ability. They could just make the enemy chase them around the sky until they're bingo.  Smile



Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineChecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 17487 times:



Quoting Mciguy (Reply 11):
Well, the AIM-9X was originally designed with the F-22 and it's small shoulder bays in mind.

Got a source for that? AIM-9X was never planned for F-22 integration...still isn't as far as I know. Did I let some news slip by me?


User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 17474 times:

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 15):
Got a source for that? AIM-9X was never planned for F-22 integration...still isn't as far as I know. Did I let some news slip by me?



Quote:
Meanwhile, the Air Force was pursuing a parallel effort to develop a compressed carriage version of Sidewinder for the F-22 called Boxoffice.



Quote:
The wings and fins of the AIM-9X are much smaller to accommodate two each per side bay in the F-22 Raptor as originally planned, AIM-9X control surfaces are reversed from earlier Sidewinders with the control section located in the rear, while the wings up front provide stability.

Link

Quote:
A high priority is the introduction of AIM-9X short range heat-seeking air-to-air missiles. Although the Raptor has provisions for two AIM-9X missiles carried in the side weapons bay, they were not integrated yet into the system, as the Raptor relies on six AMRAAM missiles used primarily for BVR kills. When the Sidewinders will be included, pilots may reconsider the use of helmet mounted cueing system (JHMCS) which hasn't been included in the current avionics suite.

Link

Quote:
It is to be carried on all U.S. fighter aircraft, including the F-22.

Link



PS> The Raptor is especially steathy in the head-on aspect. If reports are to be believed, simply lauching a bunch of BVR radar missiles at it head-on would be all but futile.  Smile

[Edited 2008-03-25 06:45:03]


Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 17447 times:



Quoting Baron95 (Reply 12):
if it is just an air superiority/attrition campaing, then the F22 would just supercruise away and re engage

Well it could super cruise away from a Harrier (although not its missiles) but it is not going to get away from a Typhoon all that quickly?


User currently offlineChecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 17419 times:

MCI...yeah, I've seen all of those...nothing official though. AIM-9X was not in the works for the Raptor and as of late, still isn't. Neither is any type of HMD/CS. There isn't any double launcher for the side bays either. Would like to see it integrate eventually though...

User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 17319 times:



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 18):
...nothing official though.

Yeah, some of those sources could be questioned, but the one link was to a GAO report.  Smile



Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 17247 times:

Pfffff... you silly fixed wing pilots, talking about who will kill who in a dogfight!

My comrades and I, will swat both of you out of the sky with our glorious surface to air missiles, the most advanced in the world!

While you foolishly dogfight, we will destroy your imperialist aircraft from high altitude with our S-300/SA-20 Gargoyle!
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g52/UH60PilotIraq/Random%201/48N6E-5P58TE-3-S.jpg

And if you capitalist pigs attempt to dive, we will snarl you in our glorious trap, using our TOR-M1s!


Signed,

Fatherland Russia & Weapon Sales Customers!


User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 17193 times:



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20):
Fatherland Russia & Weapon Sales Customers!

Russia is usually referred to as "the Motherland"

happy birthday MCIguy!


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 17187 times:



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 21):
Russia is usually referred to as "the Motherland"

No need to crush the mood!!!

I was not terribly concerned with exact details.... seeing as the post itself was simply intended to be light-hearted!

-UH60


User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 17173 times:



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 22):
I was not terribly concerned with exact details.... seeing as the post itself was simply intended to be light-hearted!

so how would you see my post then? terribly serious?


User currently offlineEpten From Macedonia, joined Sep 2007, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 17134 times:

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 4):
I'm only going with the F-22A because of its excess power and maneuverability

I wonder if it is F-22 or EF with fuel for equal time of fighting with the higher t/w ratio.

As for the maneuverability - if wikipedia articles are correct, EF seems to have lower wing loading than F-22. Wouldn't that automatically mean tighter turns and broader flight envelope? Just asking here, not sure myself: if lower wing loading equals tighter turn.

Also, I suspect that most of the time canards can have the same effect on the flight envelope as vectored thrust, especially 1D as found in F-22. EF has canards (big ones!).

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 10):
Once Typhoon's helmet is operational, it will be a very formidable WVR aeroplane, but until then aircraft with thrust vectoring will present a real challenge, especially if they have a helmet.

Doesn't the EF have HMS already?

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 12):
You can't say which is best unless you clearly define the scenario objectives and the rules of engagement. Fighter pilots don't just go into a furball for nothing - they are trying to accomplish something.

That's an exellent point. I'll try explaining what I meant when I asked "Which is currently the best dogfighter".

Let's imagine that dogfighting is a sport. The rules are simple: both aircrafta meet at a certain point at 10000 ft from oposite directions at speed of 300 knots. They pass each other closely and from then on everything is allowed (guns, hms, missiles...). No awacs, no ground support, no ground fire. Flat ocean/desert, just two armed fighters. Pilots are equaly proficient/trained/physically tough.

My bet, at the end of the day, after taking everything in consideration, goes to EF, with Sukhois and Raptors very, very close behind. It has the lowest wing loading, auto trigger, superior (considering ballistics) cannon, climbs like hell, ASRAAM (90 degrees sensor) and burns least fuel compared to others (will last longer).

On the other hand I might be wrong of course.

[Edited 2008-03-26 05:15:33]

25 F27Friendship : I fully agree with your analysis. I think the Raptor might even be a little further down, compared to the Sukhoi.
26 Checksixx : You'll have to keep wondering, the actual numbers for the Raptor are classified. Nope, not always. Different systems in play here. The way the Raptor
27 Epten : I'am pretty sure that the same goes for EF too. Pilot doesn't have the control of the control surfaces. All decisions are made by the computer. Very
28 F27Friendship : the total area is available and I believe the weight is also not far off. So wing loading is not really that classified EF has the most advanced arti
29 Flipdewaf : Ever thought that that might be because the numbers might show the raptor is a bit expensive for what you get? Personally I go for the Typhoon becaus
30 Baron95 : You are kidding right? One of the top missions the Raptors are flying in mock up combat is taking out the AWACS. AFAIK the AWACS are picking up the h
31 MCIGuy : Sure, I won't argue with that, but aren't we comparing apples to coconuts? I can't see a scenario where our tankers would be attacked by F-22s, can y
32 Baron95 : So long as we all agree that this is not a realistic war scenario, I'll play along (by the way could you define the weapons? Can I assume AIM9x and S
33 Checksixx : I disagree...show me one example. Who care's, were not talking stability. Nope, they are not in complete control. When they begin them, yes, but not
34 Acheron : Actually, the latest Su, the Su-35BM, has a lighter airframe and the dorsal airbrake was removed and a new fuel deposit was added, which means even m
35 Post contains links and images Flyf15 : It really depends on the pilots, the information, the situation, etc. Heck, in some situations, I'd hate to be dogfighting against an A-10... even in
36 F27Friendship : stability has EVERYTHING to do with manoeuvrability. how can you make such bold statements and lack basic knowledge like this? just have a look at ai
37 Rwessel : Unfortunately your math is off. 600kts is one mile every *six* seconds. An average of 1200kts for 15 seconds works out to 5nm separation.
38 Alien : Actually, no. In fact instability contributes to maneuverability. That, thrust, size of the control surfaces, ability to create wing vortices via can
39 Post contains links Pelican : Where did you get those numbers from? The air force says it's $159.9 million for the raptor. http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=199 The
40 F27Friendship : that is correct. I never said stability was the only factor, simply pointing out it has a major contribution. it is irrelevant as it is stealth that
41 Post contains images MCIGuy : Exactly what we're suggesting. The F-117 "wobbly goblin" was designed with stealth primarily in mind. It relied heavily on it's FBW just to remain in
42 Post contains images Epten : You mean 2D? If the nozzle moves only up/down it moves through one axis, one dimension. If the nozzles move both up/down and left/right, they move in
43 Post contains images FVTu134 : I thought that was wat WVR was all about. You may go knife edge, but once you start to turn and burn, it's all about who gets on somebody else's tail
44 Post contains images MCIGuy : So are you saying the Raptor is less aerodynamically efficient than say, the F-15? The engines don't make that much more thrust than the F-15's and t
45 F27Friendship : I am afraid you are not quite well informed about how stealth characteristics are and have been determined and how this is/was taken into the design
46 Epten : Oh, I see. So the thrust itself is a dimension. Hmm, makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
47 MCIGuy : All I know is what the Raptor engineer said, that stealth and aerodynamic efficiency aren't mutually exclusive, and I believe they are not. As for th
48 Checksixx : Where did I say it didn't?? I said we wern't talking about it specifically. The SU's? Nope, they sure are not...sorry, but anyone can see that after
49 Post contains images Baron95 : Hey, thanks for pointing that out. My apologies for the incorrect math - I was rushing the post ;(. I somehow knew that my scenario was too easy for
50 Post contains links Alien : Bloomberg, 4.43 Billion pounds for 72 Eurofighters, Sept 17 2007. So it’s even more now. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...1085&sid=a_tmH4i16w
51 Epten : What do you mean "there is no helmet mounted sight on the Tiffy"?
52 Post contains links F27Friendship : one does not exclude the other, but you do have to make a compromize, as with EVERYTHING when you design an aircraft. When you want to have both (and
53 Post contains links Pelican : And where does the article state that this is the fly away price? What is included in the price? I know that the Austrian payed a fly away price of 6
54 CURLYHEADBOY : I think it's extremely hard to tell which of the latest developed fighters is the best in WVR, mainly because they've never been in a real dogfight. W
55 Checksixx : Well all I can say is that if you watch any video of the two performing, its clear the Raptor has the advantage. If you won't watch them, oh well. As
56 Checksixx : No they weren't. I'd be nervous if I was in the F-15 WVR with a SU-27 (pilot of equal training and experience)...I love my country, but I keep it rea
57 Post contains images Baroque : While it might not be as much as when the burners are on, how stealthy is an F22 in supercruise. That extra thrust must come at some penalty in a hea
58 Post contains links Pelican : Maybe because I used the source Alien provided in this thread? And maybe because his source is part of the budget itself, isn't it? Could you please
59 Post contains links Checksixx : Source? Sure... http://www.defenselink.mil/comptroller/defbudget/fy2008/index.html If you can't find the numbers from there, let me know and I'll poi
60 F27Friendship : Ow I have watched them allright. Have one myself of the Su-37 (it's an older VID) where they demonstrate how they can do a supercobra and break it of
61 CURLYHEADBOY : Are you sure? I knew they were all AIM-120 kills... or maybe you mean they had some visual of the enemy aircraft, don't know but, AFAIK they never en
62 Rwessel : I can't comment on the former (frankly no one else here can either, except in the general and vague sense of noting that having more conflicting requ
63 Checksixx : Wow...havn't seen that one. Funny how all these countries want the Raptor and not a SU series aircraft huh? Guess they don't know what they're missin
64 MissedApproach : Could be wrong, but I believe it won't be fielded until the Tranche 3 airplanes deploy. The newest all-aspect IR missiles track in both IR transmissi
65 Baron95 : Here is a simple way to tell which is the more capable fighter... Do you think Chine would be more upset if: Taiwan bought 60 SU-35s or Taiwan bought
66 NoUFO : F-22a Procurement (Million USD): 2008: 157.635 / each " target=_blank>http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factshe...D=199 So Pelican was right. And he was o
67 F27Friendship : what does this have to do with anything in this discussion? We are discussing dogfights here, nothing more nothing less, so stop pulling in stuff int
68 Checksixx : Sorry...Flyaway Unit Cost was being discussed, therefore, my figures were correct. You have now simply twisted it into total weapon system cost for t
69 F27Friendship : Yes I brought up a video that demonstrates that the SU's with Thrust Vector Control are much more in control than you are suggesting. This has nothin
70 Pelican : Nope. About $ 155 million is right. The total weapon system cost is more about $ 190 million. BTW the source provided by Alien and used by me is part
71 Post contains links Checksixx : Your right...video of demonstrations directly leading to countries begging for the Raptor has no bearing here...I'll stay on topic if you will...Capi
72 Checksixx : Exhibit P-40, Budget Item Justification Date: February 2008 Appropriation (Treasury) Code/CC/BA/BSA/Item Control Number P-1 Line Item Nomenclature Air
73 F27Friendship : now hold it right there mister. If you re-read the discussion YOU started mentioning video's where if you compare the raptor and SU doing the same ma
74 NoUFO : Advance Procurement Cost is not the same as Total Procurement Cost! Advance Procurement Cost per unit usually includes inline modernization funding (
75 Checksixx : Would you believe it from the horses mouth?
76 Alien : I am most impressed at the depth of detail and level of expertise exhibited by many posters in this thread so I am curious. What is it that you do F27
77 Post contains images AutoThrust : I think you have posted quite some interesting stuff. The IRIS-T has already been delivered to some airforces so the ASRAAM and AIM-9 are not in the
78 F27Friendship : I'm more "into modern medicin" compared to "traditional whitchdoctors" Aerospace Engineer with very large personal interest in military aviation. I s
79 Wvsuperhornet : The F-22 it was designed to counter all of these aircraft with maybe the exception of the typhoon but with the thrust vectoring I would give the edge
80 Post contains links Checksixx : Worked in/around/with Raptor's and the program. For security reason's, what I do is none of your business...respectfully. I would venture to guess th
81 Alien : I would suggest you re-read what I wrote and how I asked you. While I may not know what you do I can infer it does not include tact or common courtes
82 Post contains images MCIGuy : Very well said! While I'm sure the Typhoon will be effective, it's not even in the same class with the Raptor. I'd also say the comparison to the Sup
83 F27Friendship : great comparison. The EF is the size of an F-18 with the payload capacity of an F-15. There is one feature that has not been mentioned before. Struct
84 Checksixx : LoL...twist my words away...guess you forgot to quote the portion where I put 'respectfully' huh? Not fact, but only your opinion. Others have one ab
85 F27Friendship : it's an opinion based on a lot of simulations, of which some are publically available. I believe one was posted on the forums somewhere even..
86 Alien : Payload Capacity Super Hornet 8050Kg EF 6500Kg F-15E 11136Kg Care to supply a link so we all can see these publicly available simulations.
87 HaveBlue : The F-15 is within 3' of the F-18 in wingspan, length and height, so they are basically the same size with the exception of weight.
88 Post contains images LongbowPilot : SAMs scare me, but MANPADS scare me more... -Attack
89 Post contains links Analog : LMCO used to have Stong Bad in the cockpit in that F-22 picture. The bastards took it out. I can't find a copy of that picture...
90 F27Friendship : I'd have to look..
91 F27Friendship : -EF's external stores can be overloaded to 7500 kg (source: Jane's all the world's aircraft) -Superhornet has indeed 8028 kg (Jane's), but is "fatter
92 Alien : So? I am sure you could overload a Super Hornet as well and it's its payload capacity would be greater as well. No matter, even "overloaded" Tiffie d
93 F27Friendship : no they are not! they are very very different. As different as an F-18C and F-18E
94 MCIGuy : Not really, the Superbug is literally an entirely new frame. The Strike Eagle is basically the standard two-place Eagle with comformal fuel tanks and
95 Alien : Care to cite something on that. Everything I read and am told says different. The avionics are different and they carry the conformal fuel tanks that
96 LH498 : Going back to the discussion SU vs F-22, I've found this video, that compares the SU-30 with the F-22. I guess a SU-37 would have been a better candid
97 Alien : That you cannot be serious. We do not know the camera angles, distances or focal lengths. We don't know altitude or air speed. We never see how each
98 Tancrede : By the way, do we have any official proofs of these facts, from reports or peoples who have witness its supremacy before other fighters (through offi
99 Flipdewaf : Maybe its secret because they don't want tax payers to see it was a waste of money or that other nations have no real need to be scared? Fred
100 Beaucaire : For the price of one F-22 one can buy 5 or 6 SU-35 - so is the F-22 five times better than the SU-35 ??? I dare to have my doubts - for the overall fi
101 Wvsuperhornet : [quote=Tancrede,reply=98]By the way, do we have any official proofs of these facts, from reports or peoples who have witness its supremacy before othe
102 Wvsuperhornet : Yes it is. You had better check your figures last time I looked the F-22 was more expensive but not buy much it was like more of a 2-1 ratio you can
103 PolymerPlane : Did you actually do the calculation? I did from wikipedia data ______________________________EF____________________F-22 Wing area(m^2) ______________
104 MCIGuy : Yeah, I'd heard that, and it just warms my heart.
105 Checksixx : Wasn't aware that any Eurofighter has participated in Red Flag...source? Well specific to the video you posted it clearly shows that the SU has nowhe
106 Sprout5199 : To put my . I remember people saying stuff like that when the F-117,M1 Abrams,M2 Bradley, Apache, Black Hawk came out. If all I can go by is past per
107 Tancrede : There weapons are good, that is right, but there is others non-US which are as good as that ones.
108 Post contains images AutoThrust : Source? Can you back this up? All EF Batch 2 and Block 2B have Helmet Mounted Sight. Production started 2007. Your marketing fluff rather. While the
109 Sprout5199 : How long did it take for the other weapon systems to catch up? So how long will it take to catch up to the F-22? Is there situations that the F-22 "m
110 Tancrede : Just give facts, not wishes (I do not care about it) When did we saw a real air combat between world's major powers? We did not yet.[Edited 2008-04-0
111 Sprout5199 : So how can I give one without the other? paper fights and mock combat may say one thing but true combat is the only way to prove it, look at Vietnam,
112 Post contains links MissedApproach : Actually we did, in Korea. The Russians rotated entire air regiments through the area. The idea was not so much to beat the UN/US, but to give their
113 Post contains links Alien : Still in development as of November 2007 with service entry in 2009 they hope. http://www.baesystems.com/Newsroom/N...eleases/autoGen_1071012112625.h
114 Post contains links and images MissedApproach : Using the wayback machine, you can also see an IR tracker on the F-101B. View Large View MediumPhoto © Burger Collection There is no free lunch.
115 Alien : AESA also has better target discrimination for a given range, better jam resistance at a given range in fact while it may be true that you generally
116 Tancrede : And that is just the problem with you. I never said that any or some aircrafts would be superior to the F-22, neither I would said for sure that the
117 Alien : Absolutely correct, I agree there are many uncertainties in war but I am not so sure about this one.
118 EBJ1248650 : I suspect that if the Typhoon was at Nellis for Red Flag some of the a.net photographers would have gotten pictures. It's fair to say the Typhoon wil
119 ArniePie : This whole discussion seems to have turned out between the RAPTOR and the TYPHOON. This has me wandering; are there any pilots (US, UK, .... ?) who ha
120 Baron95 : Spoken like a person that never had to field, train, deploy an airforce. First, your figures are innacurate. The F22 is at most 2x to 2.5x what an SU
121 Alien : While that may be a bit of a stretch I do have to agree that that other than dumb luck or tactical incompetence (ala F-117 shoot down) that is one of
122 Jackonicko : As far as I'm aware only General Jumper has flown both in their production form. He did not fly a representative sortie in Typhoon. There may be more
123 Post contains links AutoThrust : There are diffrent timelines i found after searching but i tend to agree with you. Oh please, PESA Radars are so a technological deadend. We have dis
124 Post contains links ArniePie : After some surfing I found this; http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...news/2006/07/mil-060726-afpn09.htm To partly answer my own question, it seems
125 Post contains links Alien : John Jumper 2005: http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123010102 Also in regards to an F-18/Tiffie comparison: http://www.ausairpower.net/typhoon.html
126 Post contains links ArniePie : I'm sorry but you can't take anything from such a dubious source as C. Kopp as anywhere even remotely serious. He is usually perceived to be a self p
127 PADSpot : Sorry, I haven been around for a couple of weeks ... Wrong. The EF has a helmet-mounted sight, which is being introduced these days with the RAF and
128 MCIGuy : Like I said, I know read it somewhere, I'm not imagining it, that when the HMD for the F-35 is proven, they're going to integrate it into the Raptor.
129 Post contains links MCIGuy : Here we go.
130 Post contains links Alien : Yes, just now. I wonder if it will be back fitted to the tiffies already delivered. Wrong. Just a few sources. You can easily google more if you like
131 AutoThrust : Some facts about the PIRATE: Passive air-to-air intercept and air- to-ground sensor • Very long range passive air-air capability • Improved situa
132 F27Friendship : never mind. I'm glad you could join the discussion afterall
133 Checksixx : I don't know why...it would only be a waste of money.
134 Alien : Marketing hype you mean. Lets really dissect this shall we. Less then 30 miles in ideal conditions. Infrared has far greater attenuation than RF. No
135 AutoThrust : Rather your opinion. This are direct quotes of all 3 manufacturers of the PIRATE Sensor. According to you? Agreed. Wrong the EF doesn't have any Lase
136 Alien : Yes, that's why it's called marketing hype. Thank you for clarifying that these claims came from the manufacturer. Go do some research. That should b
137 Epten : The IR tracking system on EF is completely passive. The image obtained from the IR "eye" is subject to very fast, real-time digitalization, bitmappin
138 Post contains links Baroque : I am not quite clear what could be done to hide these, they might be dissipated, but to lose them, you would have to turn the donkeys out to pasture.
139 Alien : Don't you understand? Once you use the radar it is not passive. No, more like 35 years ago in the F-14D. It very well must be. You said so. All very
140 MCIGuy : Maybe, but I'm still convinced the Raptor will get equipped with AIM-9X and JHMCS. It only makes sense to equip your best fighter with the best weapo
141 Checksixx : While in legacy fighters you would be correct, that isn't entirely correct with the Raptor. I'm in the Raptor's corner here, but the Typhoon is an aw
142 Alien : True but CAPTOR is not LPI. It certainly has the potential to be a top non stealth fighter like the Super Hornet. It still needs an AESA, Meteor, a w
143 MCIGuy : I'm talking about equipping the Raptor with serious off-boresight capability. I know it's not budgeted any time soon but again, it just doesn't make
144 AutoThrust : Wrong you don't understand. Thats why the EF has more then just Radar or PIRATE. The Sensorfusion can identify itself targets completly passive. Ok t
145 LuvJetFuel : Eurofighter Typhoon all the way !!! .. have you seen the turningh circle on that thing!
146 Post contains links Alien : Do you even know what the "Sensorfusion" is? You have a radar(not even LPI), some newer planes have an IR sensor, a laser range finder, and RWR suite
147 IronDuke08 : I was able to fly in LM's "declassified" (read: lower performance numbers than actual capabilities) F-22 sim in Pentagon City two years ago when I was
148 Post contains images ArniePie : Not really 100% relevant to the topic at hand but wasn't the F22 chosen over the F23 because it had superior handling performances? I've always been l
149 Post contains images AutoThrust : Yes i know the Sensorfusion of the EF and you are plain wrong, you lack of knowledge which sensors are onboard. Please do yourself a favor and inform
150 ArniePie : Not sure but I think that the F22 is also super-maneuvrable, i.e. they are basically both the only fighters that posses sustained high G maneuverabil
151 Post contains links Alien : While I would not put much faith in simulators: But that and the thrust vectoring speaks volumes. Notice, infrared missile. Not a bad one at that. Tha
152 Epten : It's not a question of types of sensor. It's a question of what you do with the data obtained from them.
153 Checksixx : Then you just havn't heard it. Just because you havn't, doesn't mean it can't. The bottom line is that the Raptor, whether anyone likes to admit it o
154 AutoThrust : If so why has this never been published anywhere? Its not such a big secret everyone knows the F-22 is extremly agile. Of course is it. Its sure the
155 Checksixx : I'll go further and say...so you only believe things that are physically published?? Come on man. Okay, your right...I don't know that for sure. Mayb
156 F27Friendship : come on man, stop posting this crap. actually, there were others as well, during RAF USAF exchanges
157 Post contains links Alien : Checksixx can speak for himself but I will tell you that he works with these planes and does know directly what he is talking about. So what part of
158 F27Friendship : well, first of all, anyone familiar with the extensive regulations, security measures etc in military related industry (especially in the US) would k
159 Post contains links Checksixx : Crap? Come on...there's video proof of everything I've said! There was this RAF officer selected to fly the Raptor: http://www.af.mil/news/story_prin
160 Alien : Agreed, but he did not also fly the EF and that was the original point. There is only one person (that I know of) that has flown the F-22 and the EF
161 F27Friendship : it seams I am not allowed to reply to this thread properly anymore. Posts get deleted. If the other participatns of this thread won't have me posting
162 Epten : So, any new information? Which modern figther makes the tighter turn?
163 Post contains links Keesje : Well the Mig35 flies and is offered for sale. It has a better power to weight ration as most, 3D thrust vectoring, an agile AESA radar, passive vision
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