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Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight  
User currently offlineCTR From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 303 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6479 times:

Tonight at 10:00 PM Eastern there is Military Channel special on the V-22s deployed to Iraq that is supposed to contain honest facts and commentary regarding the aircrafts history and capability.

http://military.discovery.com/tv/osprey/osprey.html

Have fun,

CTR


Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineWvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6334 times:

It was pretty enlightening if anyone else watched it.

User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 6133 times:

I didn't get to see it. Were the results as bad as were predicted by some? I'm inclined to think of the Osprey as a kind of boutique aircraft - expensive but useful in small numbers for specialized missions. Sort of like the SR 71 or U-2. I'm incline d to doubt it will be either cheap or effective enough to replace all the aircraft it was supposed to replace. But maybe its flaws have been exaggerated - it will be interesting to see.

User currently offlineFlipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1578 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 6130 times:
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I didn't see the program but according to a few sources which I am not at liberty to name this machine is a bit of a death-box. Any parts of this come up on the show?

Fred


User currently offlineCTR From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 12 hours ago) and read 6106 times:



Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 3):
but according to a few sources which I am not at liberty to name this machine is a bit of a death-box.

I just returned from the AHS International Forum in Montreal. The key note speaker at the opening of the forum was Thomas E. Laux, NAVAIR Program Executive Officer for AIR ASW, Assault and Special Mission Programs. After highlighting the impressive sucesses achieved by the V-22 in it's first deployment, Mr. Laux stated in brief "The doom and gloom experts that predicted the failure of the V-22's deployment are going to need to find something new to pick on". The entire room broke into applause following that statement. Including the CEOs and employees of Sikorsky, Agusta-Westland and EuroCopter.


Watch the program...

Have fun,

CTR



Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6065 times:

Did it actually show both sides or was it the usual Military channel propaganda?

User currently offlineCTR From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6059 times:



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 5):
Did it actually show both sides or was it the usual Military channel propaganda?

Although mention is made of the troubled history of the V-22, the program centers on the aircrafts Iraq deployment and the personnel piloting, flying in and supporting the aircraft. So for those hoping to see an in depth rehash of every problem experienced by the V-22 over the past 20 years, there may be some disappointment.

Compared to the Time article, the program is very well balanced.

Have fun,

CTR



Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
User currently offlineBingo From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 359 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6007 times:

The first squadron of the V-22s just got back from their first deployment to Iraq. I read that the deployment went well but they want to put a turret gun on the bottom to be manned by an onboard gunner. Should be interesting to see this bird evolve....

User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5989 times:

Is Iraq as it currently stands truly a good test for the bird? Most of the danger now comes for IEDs.We are pretty close to winning, if you measure victory in purely military terms. The environment in 2003 or 2006 was definitely more dangerous. And now large areas are pretty much pacified, so the bird could be used only in these areas to make it look better, or to protect soldiers from its perceived flaws.

User currently offlineCTR From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5976 times:

Cloudy,

Have you seen the program yet?

The Marines have stated "We are not claiming that the V-22 has won the war of proving it's worth, but it has won a major battle".

Watch the program and read the latest reports.

Have fun,

CTR



Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5925 times:



Quoting Bingo (Reply 7):
I read that the deployment went well but they want to put a turret gun on the bottom to be manned by an onboard gunner.

Just to clarify, DID reports that only SOCOM's CV-22s are in line to get the belly guns for now. The Marines do not have a contract for their MV-22Bs to be similarly equipped.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...s-turret-to-trial-in-cv-22s-04618/

Quote:
"Now BAE Systems has announced that will develop this Remote Guardian System for the CV-22 Ospreys that will be flown by US special forces. The $491,000 U.S. Special Operations Command contract calls for rapid development, installation, testing, and qualification of this solution, and has a potential value of $16.3 million if all options are exercised and the solution goes into production for the SOCOM fleet. The US Marine Corps' MV-22B tilt-rotors are not involved in this contract, nor have they signed a separate contract with BAE Systems at this time."

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/ORD_RWS_RGS_on_MV-22_Slide_lg.jpg
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/.../ORD_RWS_RGS_on_MV-22_Slide_lg.jpg

"May 1/08: Production begins. BAE Systems Inc. in Johnson City, NY receives a FFP pre-priced contract modification for $8 million for a CV-22 interim defense weapon system productions option in support of U.S. Special Operations Command and NAVAIR. Work will be performed in Johnson City, NY from April 30/08 through Jan 31/09, using FY 2006 SOCOM procurement funds and FY 2008 Navy aircraft procurement funds. This is a within scope modification to a competitive contract where 2 offers were received (H92222-08-C-0006-P00003).



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineBingo From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 359 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5904 times:



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 10):
Just to clarify, DID reports that only SOCOM's CV-22s are in line to get the belly guns for now. The Marines do not have a contract for their MV-22Bs to be similarly equipped.....

Its not a contract that they lack its money. I wouldnt be shocked if the Devil Dawgs at MARCORSYSCOM invent a better system at half the cost and in 3 months. The Marines have always had to do more with less. They arent going to let a contract stand in the way of protecting this evac angel. Hell they'll tie 3 really pissed off Gunnys to the bottom of these birds with 9mms if they have to....but she will make it out of any hornet's nest they send it to. All this so the Navy can buy some new expensive toy..... Big grin  stirthepot 


User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5874 times:



Quoting CTR (Reply 9):
Have you seen the program yet?

The Marines have stated "We are not claiming that the V-22 has won the war of proving it's worth, but it has won a major battle".

I havn't seen it yet. What question does the program seek an answer to?

If the question is: Will the V-22 be capable in succeeding in missions like the one that helped inspire its development (that is , long range, high speed commando raids and search and rescue)? Could it have pulled off Desert One? My guess is that the answer to this question is yes.

If the question is: Will the V-22 be cheap enough, tough enough, survivable enough, and reliable enough to replace all the helicopters it is supposed to replace? My guess is the answer to this question is no. Procurement cost alone could ensure that most of the aforementioned helicopters will be replaced by helicopters, however reluctantly. We could easily see scattered. very small Osprey units doing rescue work, while a couple squadrons would be available for commando missions - unless costs go way down.

IN SHORT - my guess is the Osprey will survive, but only as an expensive boutique aircraft for highly specialized missions. Sort of like the SR71 and the U2.


User currently offlineCTR From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5848 times:



Quoting Cloudy (Reply 12):
What question does the program seek an answer to?

Unlike the V-22 Time Ragazine article that had a blatent agenda, this Mil Channel program on the V-22 is more about the deployment of Marines flying and supporting the aircraft. Comparativly little is about the Osprey itself.

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 12):
IN SHORT - my guess is the Osprey will survive, but only as an expensive boutique aircraft for highly specialized missions. Sort of like the SR71 and the U2.

Now that the Osprey is deployed, we don't need to guess. We only need to watch.

I wonder if 60 years ago Sikorsky, Bell, Kaman and Pieseki were told that the helicopter with it's complexity, high maintenance, high cost, low payload and low range would never ammount to more than "an expensive boutique aircraft for highly specialized missions".

Have fun,

CTR



Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
User currently offlineBingo From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 359 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5826 times:



Quoting CTR (Reply 13):
Now that the Osprey is deployed, we don't need to guess. We only need to watch.

Agreed, they still havent figured out the tactics for it yet. At the risk of making a bad comparison they are kind of at a place where they were pre-vietnam when figuring out the Air Cav. They know what the bird is capable of, they just need to figure out the best ways to utilize it's strengths. It wont be until later build blocks that we see the true effect of this bird.


User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5788 times:



Quoting CTR (Reply 13):
I wonder if 60 years ago Sikorsky, Bell, Kaman and Pieseki were told that the helicopter with it's complexity, high maintenance, high cost, low payload and low range would never ammount to more than "an expensive boutique aircraft for highly specialized missions".

Helicopters do fill a more limited role than fixed wings. There are simply a lot more fixed wing aircraft than helicopters, even if you only consider the size range in which it competes. With fuel prices where they are, we may see auto-gyros or fixed wing aircraft replace the helicopter in some roles. If you include cost in the comparison, the auto-gyro may be a more practical compromise between fixed wing and helicopter in many applications. A more fair comparison is to compare the Osprey to the FIRST generation of helicopters. The first generation of OPERATIONAL helicopters WERE more or less boutique aircraft. It wasn't until the UH-1 generation that helicopters began to fulfill their promise. I have no doubt that future tilt rotors will be more widely applied than the Osprey, though probably they won't be as popular as helicopters for a long time.

Quoting CTR (Reply 13):
Now that the Osprey is deployed, we don't need to guess. We only need to watch.

Even considering current deployments, we won't know how vulnerable the beast is to enemy fire until we see it confront a more hostile environment (and a more capable enemy) then today's insurgents in Iraq. We won't know how much it costs compared to the helicopters it is supposed to replace until the later blocks come out. These questions are the most critical in determining if the Osprey fulfills the original claims of its backers.

Current tests do reveal that it is not as bad in missions suited for it as its critics claimed, however. That makes its complete cancellation unlikely.

However, I still see reason to believe that tilt-rotors will for some time not be mature enough to replace the majority of Marine helicopters. When/If the Marines use a tilt rotor replaces the bulk of their helicopter fleet, they will use something very much different than the Osprey. They will use the next generation of tilt rotors - which will make use of the experience of building the Osprey.

In the far future, assuming continued high fuel prices, we might see the helicopter's role narrowed somewhat. It will find itself squeezed by the tilt-rotor on the high end and the autogyro on the low end.


User currently offlineCTR From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5768 times:

Cloudy,

Good thoughtful analysis.

Have fun,

CTR



Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 5402 times:

Hasn´t it been awful quiet about this bird for a while, any news?

User currently offlineBingo From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 359 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 5359 times:

No news is usually good news.  Smile On a different note... back on May 31st they dedicated a memorial to two crews who died in 2000 while testing the bird. One crash was in April and the other was in December. The memorial is at the USMC museum in Quantico, Virginia. Its absolutely beautiful and very fitting.
http://www.ospreymemorial.com/


User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3425 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 5350 times:



Quoting Cloudy (Reply 12):
If the question is: Will the V-22 be capable in succeeding in missions like the one that helped inspire its development (that is , long range, high speed commando raids and search and rescue)? Could it have pulled off Desert One? My guess is that the answer to this question is yes.

I think the development is going well, people forget this in effect trying to build a blackhawk with NO helicopters ever being built before it. My guess is that it will take another 10 years to really hit its stride in all its desired missions.

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 12):
If the question is: Will the V-22 be cheap enough, tough enough, survivable enough, and reliable enough to replace all the helicopters it is supposed to replace?

I don't think it will ever replace the helicopter completely. Just too many applications where the smaller footprint and frontal area of a conventional helicopter is more important than raw speed. Also heavy lift might say with "conventional" tandem rotor helicopters since they put the lift and load into the fuselage instead of having to have very strong wings to keep it all together. Quad rotor tilt rotors might be the spoiler in this relm as if they can replace C130 sized transports AND do heavy lift in vertical applications.... The engineering on a quad rotor tilt rotor is going to be difficult at best though.


User currently offlineDragon6172 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 5334 times:



Quoting Bingo (Reply 18):
back on May 31st they dedicated a memorial to two crews who died in 2000 while testing the bird. One crash was in April and the other was in December. The memorial is at the USMC museum in Quantico, Virginia. Its absolutely beautiful and very fitting.

I have been meaning to go check out the new museum up there, and this adds another reason to go. SSgt Nelson was one of my instructors when I was going thru H-46 mech school, and Cpl Kelly was one class behind me and lived in the barracks room next to me. Actually came across these two and had a few drinks the night prior to the crash. The radio call for all assets to RTB due to an "aircraft down in LZ Osprey" sticks with me, as does seeing the wreckage show up at the hanger on flat bed trailers a few days later.
Good Marines all of them.



Phrogs Phorever
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