Sponsor Message:
Military Aviation & Space Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Bob Hoover -- As Much Of A Badass As Yeager?  
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 18998 times:

Check this out:

http://www.au.af.mil/au/goe/Templates/eagle_bios/2002/hoover_2002.html

Yeager (per his own bio) escaped the Nazis and rescued another flyer (amputating that flier's leg in the process). During the process, he also made bombs (we would now call them IEDs) for the French resistance. Hoover spent several months in a camp, escaped, and stole an Fw-190 (which he had never flown) to freedom. Badasses of the same calibre? What happened to that Fw-190?

EDIT: Fixed ambiguity.

[Edited 2008-04-16 11:05:07]


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJackonicko From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2008, 472 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 18973 times:

Read Yeager's book and you'd think (as he does) that he was the greatest of all time.

But he bad-mouthed countless good men and b*ll**itted wildly - after he'd flown the X-4 and found it wanting he insisted that they 'junked it then and there' - which must be news to the other X-4 pilots, who flew many missions after him, and who suggested only that the aircraft did require a pilot with 'finesse'.

It's a pity, because if you can put aside the boasting and tall tales, Yeager was a giant, whose achievements were legion and considerable. Just not in the same class as some of those he bad-mouthed - most notably Frank 'Pete' Everest.

And yes, he was a shining light within the 357th FG, just not as bright a light as Carson, England, Anderson, Peterson, Foy or Bochkay.......

Having watched his Mustang and Commander displays, I'd say that Hoover could fly rings around Yeager. Jimmy Doolittle agrees describing Hoover as "... the greatest stick-and-rudder man who ever lived." (He's wrong, of course - that honour should go to Jan Zurakowski, Neil Williams, or perhaps even Ray Hanna).


User currently offlineDODCFR From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 18904 times:

There are some people I know who refer to Chuck Yeager as "Anything for a Buck Chuck". He earned this name by charging the firefighters a dollar for an autograph. And this was after he kicked all of the firefighters out of their dayroom during an airshow. But I don't mean to sell him short because he did acomplish a great many things.

User currently offlineMissedApproach From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 713 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 18869 times:



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 1):
the aircraft did require a pilot with 'finesse'

That reminds me of an account I read which said he had "mishandled" the F-104 during his altitude record attempt, resulting in a full departure & the loss of the airplane. I wish I could remember where I read that...

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 1):
that honour should go to Jan Zurakowski, Neil Williams, or perhaps even Ray Hanna

Yay! http://www.avroarrow.org/AvroArrow/JanZurakowski.html



Can you hear me now?
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29832 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 18838 times:



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 1):
was a giant, whose achievements were legion and considerable.

And only because he was an instrumented aircraft. It is pretty much accepted that George Welch beat Yeager to the sound barrier on at least 3 occasions with the XP-86, later the F-86A Sabre including a flight he made on the morning prior to Yeagers famous flight.

He just didn't have an instrumented aircraft to record the event and the USAF didn't want to advertise the fact that they just blew a bunch of money on the X-1, when their new fighter just did the thing the X-1 was designed to do.

The F-86A was proven to be supersonic in a dive, and Welch, as I said was able to get the same behaviors out of the prototype that line pilots in the F-86 reported when they where supersonic.

Quoting MissedApproach (Reply 3):
That reminds me of an account I read which said he had "mishandled" the F-104 during his altitude record attempt, resulting in a full departure & the loss of the airplane. I wish I could remember where I read that...

You are thinking of Tom Wolfes "The Right Stuff"

Actually Yeager doesn't deserve the blame for that loss.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineFridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18772 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Great pilots, one and all.

But my favorite will always be Scott Crossfield. He and Yeager did not get along, but they respected each other's abilities.

RIP Scott.

F



The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 18570 times:

Hoover is the man, game, set, match. I was lucky enough to see him fly the commander and his jet (forgot what it was) @ ISM 'with' the Thunderbirds about 20 years ago. Awesome show, I learned a lot about 'energy management' from it. I'll never forget.

User currently offlineFerrypilot From New Zealand, joined Sep 2006, 897 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 18437 times:



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 1):
Read Yeager's book and you'd think (as he does) that he was the greatest of all time.

My copy of Yeager's book is twenty years old and I am still only about half way through it. ...I have never been a great reader of books, but also Yeager is so full of himself and so full of b.llsh.t I can't swallow more than a few pages at a time. Also it occurs to me that since the book was written for him, that he lacked the intelligence to write it himself.

Having said that he obviously was born with sufficient judgement and dexterity to handle some fairly awesome flying machines. Although in the case of the Bell X1, I have to think equally skilled but more intelligent pilots would surely have preferred to back away from that machine, especially when faced with pushing it through the sound barrier for the first time.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © AirNikon


From what I have read of Yeager I have gained an inkling or suspicion that he may not quite have had the ultimate finesse that the very best "stick and rudder" guys are capable of displaying. But after the war he had deliberately taken every possible opportunity to fly very many different aircraft types and I think that fund of experience and valuable practice is quite likely to have blurred any distinction between Yeager's "raw handling skill" and that of any other hotshot. "Practice makes perfect" ...as they say.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Suresh A. Atapattu


Obviously Yeager has massive confidence in his own ability and he seems to have been fearless in the air. I suspect that it was those traits that were first and foremost in enabling him to face down some very dangerous moments in his career. As for his personality, well I very much doubt that many people can have found him to be good company and his book certainly suggests when he was young, that he was frequently pulling dumb ass stunts that could quite easily have got someone hurt. ...And it is on that score that Yeager probably formed a mutual self appreciation society with Bob Hoover.

In the book Bob Hoover flying chase in a Shooting Star is criticised by Yeager for deliberately buzzing him whilst on his first ride in the X1 and still attached to the B29 mother ship. ...So close Yeager says that as he ran his checks just prior to release from the B29, Hoover's jet exhaust nearly knocked him loose instead. ...If that isn't dumb ass jerking around I don't know what is!


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8508 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 18404 times:



Quoting N328KF (Thread starter):
Badasses of the same calibre?

Yeager was a badass, and so was Hoover, but as aviators I would definitely rank Hoover over Yeager for several reasons.

Quoting Ferrypilot (Reply 7):
Also it occurs to me that since the book was written for him, that he lacked the intelligence to write it himself.

That's a bit unfair. Many perfectly intelligent people aren't good enough writers to write an entire book.

Quoting Ferrypilot (Reply 7):
In the book Bob Hoover flying chase in a Shooting Star is criticised by Yeager for deliberately buzzing him whilst on his first ride in the X1 and still attached to the B29 mother ship. ...So close Yeager says that as he ran his checks just prior to release from the B29, Hoover's jet exhaust nearly knocked him loose instead. ...If that isn't dumb ass jerking around I don't know what is!

Frankly I'd be inclined to doubt Yeager's account about that.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29832 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 18346 times:



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 8):
Quoting Ferrypilot (Reply 7):
In the book Bob Hoover flying chase in a Shooting Star is criticised by Yeager for deliberately buzzing him whilst on his first ride in the X1 and still attached to the B29 mother ship. ...So close Yeager says that as he ran his checks just prior to release from the B29, Hoover's jet exhaust nearly knocked him loose instead. ...If that isn't dumb ass jerking around I don't know what is!


Frankly I'd be inclined to doubt Yeager's account about that.

Truth be told, Hoover was supposed to be flying the X-1 but got busted for something in the weeks prior, making Yeager the #1 pilot and Hoover the backup.

And if Yeager had told somebody he broke his ribs falling off a horse the night before Hoover would have made the flight anyway.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineFerrypilot From New Zealand, joined Sep 2006, 897 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 18314 times:



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 8):
That's a bit unfair. Many perfectly intelligent people aren't good enough writers to write an entire book.

Perhaps I'll give you that, ...on reflection I guess you need a fairly strong inclination and commitment towards writing in order to complete a whole book.


User currently offlineFerrypilot From New Zealand, joined Sep 2006, 897 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 18207 times:



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 1):
Jimmy Doolittle agrees describing Hoover as "... the greatest stick-and-rudder man who ever lived." (He's wrong, of course - that honour should go to Jan Zurakowski, Neil Williams, or perhaps even Ray Hanna).

I have two of Neil Williams books, ...acquired after seeing him fly at an airshow at Sywell near Northampton in 1977. I had watched with much interest as the renowned British aerobatic champion displayed a Bucker Jungmann.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ian Woodcock


As he finished his routine and came into land I was aware that most of the crowd had stopped looking at the small biplane. But I remained curious and pushed up on to my toes to see over the heads of those in front of me. I wished to see Neil Williams land the Jungmann and which I was aware had a reputation as being tricky in that respect.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jens Wiemann


He proceeded to wheel the vintage biplane on flat, ...but the wheels remained in contact with the turf only very briefly. ..."To my utter astonishment" and in the blink of an eye, Neil hauled his machine back into the air and "flick rolled" it. Then immediately on recovery he settled the biplane back on to the grass for a perfect 3 point landing.

"It remains to this day the bravest and most extraordinary stunt that I have ever witnessed in my life"


User currently offlineFerrypilot From New Zealand, joined Sep 2006, 897 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 17910 times:



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 1):

Having watched his Mustang and Commander displays, I'd say that Hoover could fly rings around Yeager. Jimmy Doolittle agrees describing Hoover as "... the greatest stick-and-rudder man who ever lived." (He's wrong, of course - that honour should go to Jan Zurakowski, Neil Williams, or perhaps even Ray Hanna).

Ray Hanna may very well be the outstanding aviator mentioned on this thread. Especially since he led the Red Arrows for four consecutive years and which is a record for the maintenance of that position. There are two obvious conclusions :- ...1st that the RAF establishment favoured and trusted him.
and 2nd that eight other carefully chosen "Reds" who would also be "well above average air force pilots" were impressed by both his leadership and aircraft handling skill.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © YU Ming


About six years ago I saw Ray Hanna display the actual Spitfire seen in the photo below at the Wanaka Airshow here in New Zealand.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Harry Follas


It was far and away the most spectacular and exciting routine that I have ever seen flown in a Spitfire. He flew that "Spit" the way it was meant to be flown. ...And it was all the more impressive because I figured that Ray was well over 70 years of age at the time.


User currently offlineJackonicko From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2008, 472 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 17880 times:

Ray was perhaps the ultimate showman, though Neil Williams was just as good, and perhaps a more complete 'aviator'.

In the Lightning and Typhoon, I've never seen anything to equal Keith Hartley's displays.

In his more narrow field, Brian Lecomber (who I flew with in a Stampe), is an equally impressive airshow display pilot.


User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2776 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 17857 times:

I'm certain he is not very close to Hoover in terms of flight skills, but I'm pretty amazed no one has talked about John Mohr! That guy can fly a Stearman like no one else. Go to 9:40 for example.  Smile



[Edited 2008-05-08 06:40:03]


View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 17815 times:

Hoover was definitely a better pilot.

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 5):
But my favorite will always be Scott Crossfield.

Although he didn't have the same war stories as Yeager, Crossfield was 5 times the pilot and 25 times the professional as Yeager. He was the first to break mach 2. Not to mention that with his Masters Degree in Aeronautical Engineering he designed and flew the X15. He not only had the balls, but the brains as well.


User currently offlineFerrypilot From New Zealand, joined Sep 2006, 897 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 17771 times:



Quoting KPDX (Reply 14):
I'm certain he is not very close to Hoover in terms of flight skills, but I'm pretty amazed no one has talked about John Mohr! That guy can fly a Stearman like no one else.

Yes that video is impressive and well worth watching. ...But I have to think that is certainly not a stock Stearman and which originally would have been equipped with a 220hp Continental. Taking a guess I would say that aircraft has been re-equipped with a 450horsepower Pratt Whitney 985 + an inverted fuel system. Although the pilot is obviously skilled and well practised he is also very deliberately exploiting stacks of additional power in that airframe and which makes his performance look unusual and spectacular. I doubt he would look so impressive in a stock Stearman.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29832 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 17768 times:

Quoting Ferrypilot (Reply 16):
But I have to think that is certainly not a stock Stearman and which originally would have been equipped with a 220hp Continental. Taking a guess I would say that aircraft has been re-equipped with a 450horsepower Pratt Whitney 985 + an inverted fuel system.

One of the old issues of Sport Pilot in the john at work has an article about him.

It is a connie powering that stearman, you can clearly tell in the photos.

He talks about how he always wanted a 985 powered one but never got around to doing the conversion.

I think it said he paid 9 grand for the machine back in the 70's.

[Edited 2008-05-08 19:14:52]


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineFerrypilot From New Zealand, joined Sep 2006, 897 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 17764 times:



Quoting L-188 (Reply 17):

One of the old issues of Sport Pilot in the john at work has an article about him.

It is a connie powering that stearman, you can clearly tell in the photos.

He talks about how he always wanted a 985 powered one but never got around to doing the conversion.

OK, ...if you say so, but he must at least have done something with the Continental to make it keep running for so long inverted.


User currently offlineJeffSFO From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 845 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 17723 times:



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 1):
Having watched his Mustang and Commander displays, I'd say that Hoover could fly rings around Yeager. Jimmy Doolittle agrees describing Hoover as "... the greatest stick-and-rudder man who ever lived." (He's wrong, of course - that honour should go to Jan Zurakowski, Neil Williams, or perhaps even Ray Hanna).

Don't forget John Boyd:

http://www.aviation-history.com/airmen/boyd.htm

I'm a big fan of Bob Hoover though. He comes across very humbly in this great video:



User currently offlineF4wso From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 974 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 17700 times:



Quoting Ferrypilot (Reply 16):
Yes that video is impressive and well worth watching. ...But I have to think that is certainly not a stock Stearman and which originally would have been equipped with a 220hp Continental. Taking a guess I would say that aircraft has been re-equipped with a 450horsepower Pratt Whitney 985 + an inverted fuel system. Although the pilot is obviously skilled and well practised he is also very deliberately exploiting stacks of additional power in that airframe and which makes his performance look unusual and spectacular. I doubt he would look so impressive in a stock Stearman.

He does use a stock engine. The 220 hp motor coughs and belches flames throughout his demonstration. I flew a trip with a relative of his who was telling me that the stock Stearman is his preference for aerobatics because it doesn't have the heavy nose that the 450 hp conversions have. The 450s have more vertical performance but the stock engine, with good energy management, is a aerobatic machine.

Because Yeager was from West Virginia, he was a boyhood hero of mine. It is a shame that his personality doesn't match his flying skills. I've seen Bob Hoover perform at shows in the Sabreliner and Commander and have seen him conduct himself as a real gentleman at the airshow galas. Scott Crossfield was another sterling individual that I held in hero status because I was fortunate to grow up when test pilots accomplishments were big news. I had opportunities to talk to him at the Dayton Air Fair, Civil Air Patrol National Congress of Aero Space Eduction, and at the X-15 40th anniversary at Edwards.

The Edwards show had the four X-15 pilots at a table signing autographs. The handlers were curt about keeping the line moving. I broke protocol when I asked Scott which hangar wall he taxied the F-100 into. He leaned back with a big grin and spun the whole story for us.

Over the years I have learned to respect individuals for their accomplishments but not suprised if they don't measure up in other areas.

Having met Gordo Cooper at the Air Force Museum, brings to mind, "Who's the greatest pilot you ever saw? You're looking at him."

Gary
Cottage Grove, MN, USA



Seeking an honest week's pay for an honest day's work
User currently offlineFerrypilot From New Zealand, joined Sep 2006, 897 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 17620 times:



Quoting F4wso (Reply 20):
He does use a stock engine. The 220 hp motor coughs and belches flames throughout his demonstration. I flew a trip with a relative of his who was telling me that the stock Stearman is his preference for aerobatics because it doesn't have the heavy nose that the 450 hp conversions have. The 450s have more vertical performance but the stock engine, with good energy management, is a aerobatic machine.

It appears I have underestimated the performance of a stock Stearman on 220hp. And on reflection I realise I might have only ever seen a Stearman fly at an airshow on one occasion in the past. ...Having said that I remain unconvinced that the aircraft seen in the video above has a stock fuel system. Simply because the pilot seems to be able to power through quite long periods of inverted flight. But I don't mean to take anything away from him by that comment and his performance is remarkable. ...I particularly liked his slow rolls and especially his eight point slow roll.


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 17610 times:

Having met both gentlemen I don't think I would call either one a "Bad Ass". I met them about 20 years apart at Edwards AFB open houses.

User currently offlineLobster From Germany, joined Oct 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 17593 times:



Quoting KPDX (Reply 14):
'm pretty amazed no one has talked about John Mohr! That guy can fly a Stearman like no one else

I actually got to fly with him once in his personal plane. Some friends of my folks were staying at their cabin who happened to be friends with John. He stopped in on his float plane for the day, and we ended up taking a tour of Lake Vermilion by air. Nice guy, never seen him fly an airshow though.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 17588 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 22):
Having met both gentlemen I don't think I would call either one a "Bad Ass". I met them about 20 years apart at Edwards AFB open houses.

What would you call two men who escaped capture or prisoner of war camps, achieved high levels of skills, and in one case, hauled a fellow flier to safety--having had to amputate that flier's leg?

It's not a reference to their personal temperament...



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
25 474218 : How about HEROS.
26 Ferrypilot : Something about Yeager's account of that in his book does not sit well with me. ...Although he strongly infers that he made a heroic effort to save h
27 IntruderPC : Unfortunately, I never met Yeager or saw him fly. I did however read most of his book and see development as a plane jockey thru the accounts of fello
28 Ferrypilot : I agree with that. Especially because ultimately I don't necessarily consider the "raw handling skill" necessary to be acknowledged as a great pilot
29 Prebennorholm : Not entirely correct. Yeager proposed Hoover as his backup to their common commander colonel Boyd. Col. Boyd asked him for the reason, and Yeager tol
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Bob Hoover -- As Much Of A Badass As Yeager?
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Military aviation related posts only!
  • Not military related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Soviet Use Of U.S. Aircraft As Aggressors posted Fri Aug 31 2007 04:30:06 by RC135X
Death Of Air Shows As We Knew Them? posted Sun Jun 2 2002 23:51:24 by ChrisNH
F-105 And F-111 As Drones posted Wed Dec 26 2007 13:04:38 by EBJ1248650
Interesting Article On AF1 F/As posted Wed Nov 28 2007 06:25:43 by Ryu2
US Considers A380 As AF1 And C-5 Replacement! posted Wed Oct 17 2007 04:08:39 by LifelinerOne
Joining The ANG As A Pilot posted Thu May 31 2007 17:24:53 by CX747
Delta Chosen As KC767 Maint. Contractor posted Tue Apr 17 2007 22:46:25 by Litz
Dovers 326th AS Flies Final C-5 Flight posted Wed Mar 14 2007 03:44:29 by Galaxy5007
Using The Prop As A Weapon (WWII) posted Sat Feb 3 2007 01:01:24 by Sean1234
Mossie As Close In Support Plane? posted Sat Dec 16 2006 04:18:34 by MD11Engineer

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format