Sponsor Message:
Military Aviation & Space Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (6 years 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 11163 times:

During his most recent visit to Tripoli,Vladimir Putin clinched a deal under which Libya would supply oil against Russian Sukhoi-35 jets.It is unknown what quantities are involved.
Will feed more as news become available

http://www.knaapo.ru/media/News/maks2007/su35eng.swf

[Edited 2008-04-17 00:34:15]


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11012 times:

that is a mean machine.

Notice how they used silouets of the JSF in the optical location system graph..


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4696 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10805 times:

So, if this is confirmed, it means Dassault's Rafale lost again?


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 10683 times:

With our great revolutionary leader one never knows-maybe he buys both aircraft ...


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineNavion From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1010 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10637 times:

That's not the JSF in the optical location system graph, those are F-22's. They can dream all they want but I'll take the F-22 all day every day over the SU-35.

User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1529 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 10551 times:



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 1):
That's not the JSF in the optical location system graph, those are F-22's. They can dream all they want but I'll take the F-22 all day every day over the SU-35.

Well, the F-22 is still pretty much detectable at BVR range with an IRST under the right conditions(and thats what the graph its trying to explain, before you get your knickers in bunch or your patriotism, whatever), and apparently the russians developed a new IRST sensitive enough for the Su-35.
We'll see(no pun intended).


User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 days ago) and read 10425 times:



Quoting Navion (Reply 4):
That's not the JSF in the optical location system graph, those are F-22's. They can dream all they want but I'll take the F-22 all day every day over the SU-35.

you are probably right, but the picture looked if the plane only had 1 engine. Confused me a bit


User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10377 times:



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 2):
So, if this is confirmed, it means Dassault's Rafale lost again?

That SOB (Khadafi) promised to Sarkozy (the french president) to buy Rafales last year, in exchange for his fastouous visit in Paris and getting out of the "terrorist mantra" with the caution of Sarkozy.

Khadafi 1 : 0 Sarkozy


PS. Lybia is a small country, will never bother with mixed fighter fleet.


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7210 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10344 times:

I some ways the F22 is irrelevant.

Firstly, it is not for sale to anyone in the region, (except Israel). This means that for Libya, (and most countries) it is not an option.

Secondly, even if he could buy the F22, the US and Israel will get more.


User currently offlineJutes85 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10303 times:

Does anyone have a cost list of all the new-gen fighters (f-22, 35, SU-35) etc?

User currently offlineRJAF From Jordan, joined Jan 2007, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10275 times:

What a waste of money! The money could be better spent for example in upgrading Libya's miserable and decaying infrastructure.

Who are they going to fight against anyway? These aircraft will collect dust and will probably be used only for fly-pasts and army parades

My  twocents 



Chance favors the prepared mind
User currently offlineWvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 10197 times:



Quoting Acheron (Reply 5):
Well, the F-22 is still pretty much detectable at BVR range with an IRST under the right conditions(and thats what the graph its trying to explain, before you get your knickers in bunch or your patriotism, whatever), and apparently the russians developed a new IRST sensitive enough for the Su-35.
We'll see(no pun intended).

Yes the Russians seem to develope alot that never reaches the production lines also keep that in mind. I agree the SU-35 especially in Lybian hands is not a real threat to the F-22.

Quoting RJAF (Reply 10):
What a waste of money! The money could be better spent for example in upgrading Libya's miserable and decaying infrastructure.

I agree I was hoping that Khadafi was actually changing his ways and was wanting to help his people but now I think its obvious he just wanted money to build his military back up again, what a shame.


User currently offlineCURLYHEADBOY From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 940 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 20 hours ago) and read 10155 times:



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 9):
Does anyone have a cost list of all the new-gen fighters (f-22, 35, SU-35) etc?

Roughly, from the cheapest to the most expensive, the list goes as following.

- SU-35: US $35 million
- Rafale C: US$62.1 million (2006)
- SAAB JAS 39 Gripen: US$76.1 million
- F-35: US$83 million (flyaway cost in Then-Year dollars)
- Eurofighter Typhoon: $122.5 mil. (2007 flyaway cost)
- F-22: US$137.5 million (2008 flyaway cost)



If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 19 hours ago) and read 10132 times:



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 8):
Firstly, it is not for sale to anyone in the region, (except Israel). This means that for Libya, (and most countries) it is not an option.

Unless something has changed very recently the F-22 is not for sale to anyone.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8205 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (6 years 19 hours ago) and read 10130 times:



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 8):
Secondly, even if he could buy the F22, the US and Israel will get more.

Why is the Libyan AF even potentially relevant to the USA and/or Israel? There is no scenario in which Libyan AF survives such a fight. Therefore, it is unclear why he needs SU-35s.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7917 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 10005 times:



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 12):
- SU-35: US $35 million
- Rafale C: US$62.1 million (2006)
- SAAB JAS 39 Gripen: US$76.1 million
- F-35: US$83 million (flyaway cost in Then-Year dollars)
- Eurofighter Typhoon: $122.5 mil. (2007 flyaway cost)
- F-22: US$137.5 million (2008 flyaway cost)

Those are crazy numbers, I'm sorry. Rafale is not (much) cheaper than Typhoon and certainly not cheaper than the Gripen. Maybe it has got something to do with the conversion into USD, but I would take this chart with a whole pint of salt.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineCURLYHEADBOY From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 940 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9966 times:



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 15):
Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 12):
- SU-35: US $35 million
- Rafale C: US$62.1 million (2006)
- SAAB JAS 39 Gripen: US$76.1 million
- F-35: US$83 million (flyaway cost in Then-Year dollars)
- Eurofighter Typhoon: $122.5 mil. (2007 flyaway cost)
- F-22: US$137.5 million (2008 flyaway cost)


Those are crazy numbers, I'm sorry. Rafale is not (much) cheaper than Typhoon and certainly not cheaper than the Gripen. Maybe it has got something to do with the conversion into USD, but I would take this chart with a whole pint of salt.

Sorry about that, you're likely right. I just did a quick search and that's why I wrote "roughly", I'll go check if I can find more precise figures, though prices may change a lot, depending on the source... never easy to tell with accuracy.



If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8205 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9965 times:

I am shocked they are all so much money. Maybe due to currencies like you say? Thought the F-22 was by far the most expensive fighter. If not, man you Europeans really got screwed. My assumption is that the F-22 is the best, but I have no expertise here.

User currently offlineCURLYHEADBOY From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 940 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9808 times:



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 16):
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 15):
Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 12):
- SU-35: US $35 million
- Rafale C: US$62.1 million (2006)
- SAAB JAS 39 Gripen: US$76.1 million
- F-35: US$83 million (flyaway cost in Then-Year dollars)
- Eurofighter Typhoon: $122.5 mil. (2007 flyaway cost)
- F-22: US$137.5 million (2008 flyaway cost)


Those are crazy numbers, I'm sorry. Rafale is not (much) cheaper than Typhoon and certainly not cheaper than the Gripen. Maybe it has got something to do with the conversion into USD, but I would take this chart with a whole pint of salt.

Sorry about that, you're likely right. I just did a quick search and that's why I wrote "roughly", I'll go check if I can find more precise figures, though prices may change a lot, depending on the source... never easy to tell with accuracy.

I did a search on the topic and found this very interesting document, have a read if you're interested:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae...uniques/FighterCostFinalJuly06.pdf

Unfortunately the SU-35 is not included and figures are updated as per 2005, so the €/$ change is no longer valid, but the numbers are (according to this study) not too far from what I found and posted previously.

Excerpt:

Rafale C (EUR 51.8) $ 62.1 (EUR 113.2) $ 135.8 Air force single-seat (inc VAT)
Rafale M (EUR 56.6) $ 67.9 (EUR 121.4) $ 145.7 Naval version (inc VAT)
JAS-39C Gripen (Poland bid) $ 68.9 (SEK 552.9) $ 76.07 Swedish version (inc VAT)
F-18E Super Hornet $ 78.4 $ 95.3 MYP II contract
Eurofighter (Germany) (EUR 85.7) $ 102.8 (EUR 118.3) $ 141.9 Tranche 2, Dec. 2003 prices
F-15E Strike Eagle $ 108.2 Not significant FY06 order
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter $ 115.0 $ 112.5 LRIP aircraft (estimates)
Eurofighter Typhoon (UK) (GBP 64.8) $ 118.6 (GBP 78.6) $ 143.8 Tranche 2, July 2004 prices
Eurofighter (Spain) Not available (EUR 105.6) $ 126.7 Tranche 2, mid 2005 prices
F-22A Raptor $ 177.6 $ 338.8 FY06 contract



If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 12 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9704 times:



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 12):



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 18):

Interesting figures!

The numbers from the first post are quite similar to the ones in the second one so $35M for the SU-35 is perhaps not far-fetched. That is surprisingly cheap, alot of fighter for your money!

Also surprising is the low price for the Rafale. I've always seen is as similar to the EF and this makes me wonder why they are struggling in their exporting attempts.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7917 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (5 years 12 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9628 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 19):
Also surprising is the low price for the Rafale. I've always seen is as similar to the EF and this makes me wonder why they are struggling in their exporting attempts.

A difference of $ 8 million is not that big.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 12 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9576 times:



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 20):
A difference of $ 8 million is not that big.



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 12):
- Rafale C: US$62.1 million (2006)
...
...
- Eurofighter Typhoon: $122.5 mil. (2007 flyaway cost)



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 18):
Rafale C (EUR 51.8) $ 62.1 (EUR 113.2) $ 135.8 Air force single-seat (inc VAT)
...
...
...
Eurofighter (Germany) (EUR 85.7) $ 102.8 (EUR 118.3) $ 141.9 Tranche 2, Dec. 2003 prices

(Quotes edited to add emphasis)

$8M? Looks more like $40M if my math isn't all wrong at this early hour...

What about maintenance cost and other costs not related to the initial purchase?
Rafale vs EF, and what about the SU-35 (since thats what Libya is going for)


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7917 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (5 years 12 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9550 times:

Quoting TGIF (Reply 21):
$8M? Looks more like $40M if my math isn't all wrong at this early hour...

Reply 12 was discussed previously. If you take USD prices from say 2001 and compare those to more current numbers, the exchange rate will blow things out of proportion. Back then 1 Euro was more or less worth 1 USD, whereas today it's more like USD 1.60. Thus, if one Typhoon sold for USD 75 million in 2001, it now sells for USD 120 million.To determine and compare prices, care needs to be taken, not to compare Rafale's 2001 fly-away costs with Typhoon sales from 2006.

Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 18):
Rafale C (...) $ 135.8 Air force single-seat (inc VAT)



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 18):
Eurofighter Typhoon (UK) (...) $ 143.8 Tranche 2, July 2004 prices

Difference: $ 8 million

Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 18):
Eurofighter (Spain) (...) $ 126.7 Tranche 2, mid 2005 prices

Difference: $ 9 million in favor of the EF.

Or do I miss something?

[Edited 2008-04-24 23:46:49]


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 12 months 23 hours ago) and read 9519 times:



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 22):

True, I stand corrected. Thanks for clearing things out.
Flyaway costs and procurement costs got me all confused for a while...


User currently offlineCURLYHEADBOY From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 940 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (5 years 12 months 23 hours ago) and read 9514 times:



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 22):
Reply 12 was discussed previously. If you take USD prices from say 2001 and compare those to more current numbers, the exchange rate will blow things out of proportion. Back then 1 Euro was more or less worth 1 USD, whereas today it's more like USD 1.60. Thus, if one Typhoon sold for USD 75 million in 2001, it now sells for USD 120 million.To determine and compare prices, care needs to be taken, not to compare Rafale's 2001 fly-away costs with Typhoon sales from 2006.

So true, that's why I stressed the currency change issue in my above post. Nevertheless I think is quite safe to say that, with all the needed caution, that the Su-35 is at the cheap end of the list while the F-22 is undoubtedly the most expensive of modern fighters. Also the price gap between the two is huge to say the least. Useless to address the reasons why now, those have been discussed very well and in-depth many times here in Military Aviation, and since the thread is about Libya, maybe the main reason why they went for the Su-35 is that it's cheap enough to afford for them.



If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
25 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : Apologies for digging up a two-year+ old thread, but I came across this..... http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-35-Mystery-Fighter-No-More-04969/
26 LimaNiner : What does Russia want with Libyan oil? They've got plenty themselves...?
27 Post contains images lumberton : I agree and I think it will be a huge humiliation for Sarko. Add this to the worrisome news that the decision on Brazil's procurement will be delayed
28 wvsuperhornet : because they are like the US they would rather export it and get more money than keep it for themselves. Alot of people don't realize the US exports
29 Post contains links UH60FtRucker : I'm sorry, but I just have to correct this wacky comment. 2009 US oil export: 2.02 millions barrels a day 2009 US oil import: 12.22 million barrels a
30 pylon101 : Lybian oil is obviously not going to go to Russia, as much as oil from Venezuela. It's government support of LUKOIL and the likes. Nothing new, really
31 Post contains links and images Flagon : It is quite confusing, according to the link below, negotiations are on going between France and Lybia regarding the Rafale http://www.militaryphotos.
32 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : The statements in the report seem eerily familiar. The datelines do not include the year - better check the dates on the reports from that link strai
33 Flagon : In the same link, the second article "Dassault in Rafale deal talks with Libya - report" basically says the same thing and is translated from the fre
34 pylon101 : I don't have enough knowledge to compare Rafael and SU-35. Could anybody try to present an objective assessment of both? I mean not a couple of phrase
35 Flagon : I am clearly not the best person to ask, as I am sure a lot of people who contribute to this forum would be in a position to give a comprehensive and
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Military aviation related posts only!
  • Not military related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Former Boeing Engineer Charged In Selling Shuttle Info To China.... posted Mon Feb 11 2008 11:06:36 by OA260
U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel posted Tue Jul 31 2007 09:32:18 by Playloud
SU-35 Vs. Su-30 Mkiii posted Thu Nov 18 2004 23:44:39 by PPVRA
Difference Between Su-35 And Su-37 posted Fri Sep 7 2001 13:31:42 by Gdarm
Indons To Buy 8 Su-30MKs & 4 Mi-35 Helos posted Thu Nov 30 2006 01:03:15 by DEVILFISH
Four New Su-30MKMs Delivered To Malaysia posted Tue Mar 4 2008 10:19:55 by DEVILFISH
U.S. To Shoot Down Errant Satellite posted Thu Feb 14 2008 09:59:26 by Tugger
Norway Is Selling 15 F5 Freedom Fighters To The US posted Tue Jan 15 2008 23:45:42 by Mortyman
Report: Libya To Order Rafale posted Tue Jan 16 2007 11:53:41 by Lumberton
Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran posted Tue May 16 2006 19:24:40 by JakeOrion

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format