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Top Guns: World's Meanest Fighter Aircraft?  
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11455 times:

In reading DEVILFISH's thread on the MMRCA deal for the Indian Air Force to buy 126 'Medium' fighters, I was wondering which fighter would A.Net's Top Guns use to defend their borders? Scenario: High altitude Himalayas on one flank, and enemy F-16 squadrons based less than 10 minutes away on the other.

RAFALE
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Rafale_ag1.jpg/800px-Rafale_ag1.jpg

TYPHOON
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Eurofighter_Typhoon_2.jpg/800px-Eurofighter_Typhoon_2.jpg

F-16
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9d/F-16e_block60_2.jpg/800px-F-16e_block60_2.jpg

F-18F


GRIPEN
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Swedish_JAS-39_Gripen_landing.jpg/800px-Swedish_JAS-39_Gripen_landing.jpg

MiG 35
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/00/MiG-35_1_main.jpg/800px-MiG-35_1_main.jpg


Pictures courtesy Wikimedia Commons License

84 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineChecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11390 times:

I'd simply use one squadron of Raptor's...should do just fine as far as the AtA threat goes. Maybe a squadron of Super Hornets for additional AtA and to mop up the AtG.

User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11379 times:



Quoting Comorin (Thread starter):
F-16

That is the UGLIEST looking F-16 I have seen since the wreckage of the T-bird Solo.

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 1):
I'd simply use one squadron of Raptor's

 checkmark 


User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 881 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11378 times:



Quoting Comorin (Thread starter):
which fighter would A.Net's Top Guns use to defend their borders?

There are a few questions that need to be answered before I could make a definitive answer.
Will the platform be used solely for air defence or is there an air to ground component (does destroying the enemy F-16 squadrons on the ground count)?
What is the standard weapons fit the Indians..oops A.net top guns will be getting with each aircraft?

Without answers to the above, my first choice is the Typhoon with AMRAAM/ASRAAM combination with the AMRAAM replaced by METEOR when it enters service.

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 1):
I'd simply use one squadron of Raptor's

Cheat  Wink


User currently offlineAlien From Romania, joined Oct 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11374 times:

Super Hornet is hands down the best of the bunch listed. The question is do the A.Netters think that the US is "reliable" enough? Otherwise Mig-35 or Rafale

User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11376 times:



User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11355 times:

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 1):



Quoting TedTAce (Reply 2):



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 5):

Alas, the Raptor /YF22 is not for sale.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 3):
Will the platform be used solely for air defence or is there an air to ground component (does destroying the enemy F-16 squadrons on the ground count)?
What is the standard weapons fit the Indians..oops A.net top guns will be getting with each aircraft

There is an a2g component as destroying bases are critical. I'm not sure about anti-tanks though (Warthog stuff?).

A.net top guns will get the an unrestricted weapons fit, including state of the art radar.

Quoting Alien (Reply 4):
The question is do the A.Netters think that the US is "reliable" enough?

I'm trying to keep that discussion off the table as it'll end up derailing a fun thread into a political thread  

It's a real treat for me to hear from all you experts out there - a.net is tops.

[Edited 2008-04-29 20:33:56]

User currently offlineChecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11342 times:



Quoting Comorin (Reply 6):
Alas, the Raptor /YF22 is not for sale.

Alas, it was simply a senario/question...we are all aware the F-22A is not for sale. The YF-22? I think you need to catch up with the times...


User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 20 hours ago) and read 11252 times:



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 7):
The YF-22? I think you need to catch up with the times...

I was referring to flyf15's graphic - does it say YF-22 or is it the YF-23?


User currently offlineChksix From Sweden, joined Sep 2005, 345 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 19 hours ago) and read 11236 times:

Since it's the beautiful aircraft of the two contenders it's the YF-23 in the pic.


The conveyor belt plane will fly
User currently offlineJackonicko From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2008, 472 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 19 hours ago) and read 11221 times:

Alien,

I applaud your loyalty to Boeing, but A-A the F/A-18E/F is far from being "hands down the best of the bunch listed."

Quite the reverse. The Super Hornet is probably better than the MiG-35 and F-16 BVR (though if you're talking F-16E/F it's close), but the SuperBug is no match for the MiG-29/35/Gripen WVR.

And it's no match for Rafale or Typhoon.

It's a respectable A-G machine, however.

In an Indian scenario, I'd question whether anything but the Typhoon or F-22 would give the kind of exchange ratio you'd need against Chinese 'Flankers'. Typhoon would give you twice as many aircraft as F-22 for the same cost, and would be better if you wanted air-to-ground capabilities, and if you wanted to deploy to austere forward bases, but F-22's Stealth advantages are compelling, if you can be sure of getting the full-spec aircraft, and can guarantee US support.

Gripen NG (as long as you get Meteor with it) would also be an interesting choice - especially as you'd get the benefit of large numbers for the same cost.


User currently offlineAlien From Romania, joined Oct 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 18 hours ago) and read 11187 times:

Other then some Boeing stock Jack I have no particular loyalty to Boeing. I own some NG and LM stock as well. If I look hard enough I probably have some BAE ADRs somewhere. Now that said who is the cheerleader here Jack/BAE fan boy?

Lets start the fact that you are even mentioning the Eurofrauder and Raptor in the same sentence. They are not equivalent, they are not even in the same league. This has been discussed ad nauseum and the conclusion always is the same. Tiffie may one day be a pretty good interceptor once it gets an AESA radar and all the bugs are ironed out. Lets be honest the only reason why people like you try to make the association is that you all know that Raptor is not for sale so you try (notice I said try) to make the argument that you could get a near equivalent in the frauder. That just does not hold water whenever actual experts (Singapore, South Korea) have to make a real aircraft choice. They know that the next best thing right now for a large long range multi role interceptor is an upgraded Eagle. That however is not what the Indians are looking for.

Gripen actually makes a pretty good point interceptor now at a very affordable price. The problem is that it is nowhere near as capable as a Super Hornet which is available now as well. Gripen NG sounds very much like Super Hornet light. The problem is that it won't be available until 2015 at the earliest and despite SAAB/BAE's claims to the contrary, actual cost is an unknown at this time.

Last Jack, both the Eurofraduer and the Gripen have a lot of US tech in them. The Indians have this anti US fetish. If their fetish wins out over common sense then they will buy either the Mig-35 or the Rafale, otherwise the Super will be bought.

About your Flanker comment, they have Flankers of their own that are probably the best example of them in the world. This buy is not primarily for air superiority mission. This is a Mig -21 replacement buy. But you should know that being the posh journo that you fancy yourself to be.


User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 11099 times:



Quoting Alien (Reply 11):
The Indians have this anti US fetish.

I'm trying to find out which plane is the best from a mission capability point of view - which is why we're leaving politics and India out of the discussion  Smile

I'm hoping members will also express why they think one fighter choice is better suited to the mission than the other.

Some questions that entered my mind:

1. BVR capabilities- isn't this independent of the aircraft - just Avionics?
2. Is Dogfighting still a part of modern aerial combat or do you just fire your missiles and hope for the best?
3. Stealth - Is it a matter of time before signal-processing technology makes today's stealth planes spottable?


Thanks.


User currently offlineChecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 11094 times:



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 10):
but the SuperBug is no match for the MiG-29/35/Gripen WVR.

And it's no match for Rafale or Typhoon.

Only your opinion, not fact.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 10):
Typhoon would give you twice as many aircraft as F-22 for the same cost

No it wouldn't. They are not as cheap as people make them out to be.


User currently offlineChecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 11087 times:



Quoting Comorin (Reply 12):
1. BVR capabilities- isn't this independent of the aircraft - just Avionics?

Pretty much. A good RADAR and good BVR missile are key.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 12):
2. Is Dogfighting still a part of modern aerial combat or do you just fire your missiles and hope for the best?

For most civilized warfare, dogfighting will still be in the mix due to the need to identify the target first. It may not be a close turning fight, but still WVR.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 12):
3. Stealth - Is it a matter of time before signal-processing technology makes today's stealth planes spottable?

That capability has been around a long time. We (the US) take measures to ensure that no one is able to take RADAR samples of our aircraft while 'stealthed up'. These can be seen on F-117's (now retired) and F-22A's.


User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2252 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 15 hours ago) and read 11083 times:



Quoting Alien (Reply 11):
Last Jack, both the Eurofraduer and the Gripen have a lot of US tech in them. The Indians have this anti US fetish. If their fetish wins out over common sense then they will buy either the Mig-35 or the Rafale, otherwise the Super will be bought.

Ah well, I hoped to respect Comorin's desire to keep politics out, but since that hasn't remained the case, let me counter this. It has nothing to do with an 'anti US fetish'. The US is not a reliable supplier from our perspective; at best youre a temperamental control freak with ridiculous EUMAs attached to every military sale.

We're not an ally, nor are we geopolitically inclined to back US actions unquestionably. The US *cannot* handle military ties with such a nation. It simply doesn't work. You have a whole host of laws that kick in when any military customer does anything that gets in your way.

The last thing I want to see is, say us testing more nukes, and ending up with 125 glorified hangar queens when the US F-18 spares as part of a broad embargo in a vindictive hissy fit. That's why the Russians or French are better - not because they're longtime allies of any kind, but because they do business like businessmen, not as overarching globocops with too many conflicting interests that get in the way.

The deal is not about the best technical aircraft. It's about the best long term choice from a variety of perspectives, geopolitical included. Since the premise of this thread is to argue about the planes on solely a technical basis, keep it on those lines, and I will too...



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlineAlien From Romania, joined Oct 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 11031 times:



Quoting BarfBag (Reply 15):
Ah well, I hoped to respect Comorin's desire to keep politics out,

Lets set the record straignt as to who brought politics into this.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 10):
In an Indian scenario,

Reply 10

Quoting Alien (Reply 11):
The Indians have this anti US fetish.

Reply 11

Now Barfbag since you decided to write a thesis about the Indian fetish I will reply only with this. The US, as with any nation has a right and an interest in controlling who gets the technology that was bought and payed for by their own citizens. The fact of the matter is that the US, not the UK, not France and certainly not Russia will get stuck holding the bag if things go south in your neck of the woods. Tell me why should we trust a nation that still has significant anti US tendencies, that still has running sewage in their streets and who cannot keep the lights on for all of it's citizens yet has delusions of regional grandeur with some of our best technology.

So if you really want to talk about India I think we would be crazy to allow TOT and we would be foolish not to be willing to cut off your spares should you use the equipment we sell you in a way contrary to our interests. Rest assured the UK, France and Russia will cut you off just as quick if they thought you where using something they sold you counter to their interests.

Sorry for being so forthright with you Barf and I had deliberately stayed away from the actual MRCA thread but really this is all just think thinly vialed anti Americanism under the guise of "we don't trust you". Like I said, it's laughable. The trust is on the other foot and only Indian arrogance is blinding you to that fact.

Feel free to PM me or start another thread. I don't want to hijack this thread any more than either you or Jack have already.


User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2252 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 11011 times:

Once again, I'll respond on this thread, since you started the subject on this thread, and not IM you.

All this talk about 'Anti-Americanism' is nonsense. More to the point, I'll call you out on your Anti-Indianism, and unless you desist, I'll respond accordingly and reject such accusations, whether or not you choose to pretend it amounts to Anti-Americanism.

The simple reason why the potential for conflicts of interest with France or Russia is low is that they simply do not have so many interests the region, and to put it more bluntly, do not interfere in the area much at all, compared to the US.

The US ought to sell its wares to those who'll follow you in your global wars. You simply do not have the systems in place to make it work when it comes to selling offensive weaponry to nations who pursue their own paths regardless of what US interests may be.

The so called 'arrogance' cuts both ways - we take our desire to act in our interests whatever anyone else's may be, just as well as you do. If its in our interest to work with the US, we will. If its better off that we not deal with you, we will. If we can get away with screwing you, we will. I fully expect the US or anyone else to have exactly the same approach.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3495 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 13 hours ago) and read 10982 times:



Quoting Comorin (Reply 6):
I'm trying to keep that discussion off the table as it'll end up derailing a fun thread into a political thread

It was a nice try. Would have been a fun thread too, but.....  pessimist 



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineDalb777 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 13 hours ago) and read 10968 times:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1099/976687171_80fcf0d227_o.jpg


Geaux Tigers! Geaux Hornets! Geaux Saints! WHO DAT!!!
User currently offlineJackonicko From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2008, 472 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 12 hours ago) and read 10937 times:

Alien,

You’re right, F-22 and Typhoon aren’t in the same league. The F-22 enjoys a level of superiority over the Typhoon in the air-to-air role – though when Stealth is not required, though its lack of connectivity makes it less useful in a net enabled battlespace. It urgently needs the datalinks that will allow it to contribute seamlessly to the Global Information Grid.

Given some RoE, it also badly needs a helmet and a real off boresight weapon.

The Typhoon is not a ‘near-equivalent’ to the F-22 (nothing is) but if the threat is posed by teen-series fighters or ‘Flankers’ it will provide a similar degree of superiority. (With an F-22 you’ll win 95% of the time, with a Typhoon 80% of the time, and with an F-15 you’ll do well to achieve parity, given equal pilot skills, radar performance and weapons).

Against Iraqi MiG-29s an F-15C is a ‘near equivalent’ to the F-22 in that it will give a very high exchange ratio, and will provide cheap air dominance.

But against better opposition, the F-15 and Super bug will struggle, while the Typhoon provides real superiority. And interestingly, when pitted against the F-15, the Typhoon was preferred by the Singaporeans – the RSAF evaluation team wanted Typhoon and were overruled by the MinDef. Not by the Koreans – but that was long ago, when the aircraft’s maturity was such that entering a competition was pretty silly. The Typhoon is also replacing F-15s with the Saudi air force, and the JASDF team who flew the aircraft (all F-15 pilots) regarded it as a giant step forward compared to what they were used to. The JASDF want the F-22, of course, but if they can’t have it, I can guarantee that the JASDF choice will be the Typhoon, if the politicians allow it.

Checksixx,

The Typhoon’s superiority over the Teen Series is not my opinion, it is fact.

Typhoon flyaway costs are in the £42 m (RAF, Tranche 2) €61 m (Austrian) ballpark. That’s about $80-85 m – which is about half the cheapest flyaway cost of the F-22.


User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 12 hours ago) and read 10912 times:

I'll try do put some logs on the fire to get this threat back on track. The topic is interesting and definatly worth discussing. I have several thoughts about the US/Indian relationship but I'll just have to bite my tongue.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 12):
1. BVR capabilities- isn't this independent of the aircraft - just Avionics?
2. Is Dogfighting still a part of modern aerial combat or do you just fire your missiles and hope for the best?
3. Stealth - Is it a matter of time before signal-processing technology makes today's stealth planes spottable?

1. I'd say for offence it's all about avionics. The airframe won't make any difference. A nice set of BWR missiles is of course important. Meteor should suit India well (and it not from US  duck  ). Defending your self BWR, stealth is of course important. Passive, little radar reflexion, as well as active, Jamming etc.
Regarding our six candidates I frankly don't know and given that many of the Indian versions just left the drawing table I think it's difficult for anyone to know.
2. Over the years (from WW2 to the wars in Iraq) there has been less and less dogfighting and I think (unfortunately for us "top gun fans") that trend will continue. If you do find your self in a dogfight situation I'd say you want to be in a tight turning fighter that will maintain its kinetic energy through those turns. With the countermeasures improving a Helmet Mounted sight might be a good aid.
3. None of the six candidates can, IMO, be considered as stealthy. I think a good "stealth" feature here can be a data link. This will enable you to retrieve information about your enemies without having to turn on your radar (I like the torch in the dark closet analogy. If you use your torch, you might find something but your foe will likely spot you.). Passive sensors are of course usefull here.

So... feel free to comment on this and hopefully we can discuss some about India's future fighter choice. I'm no expert, this is just my opinion...  Smile


User currently offlineJakeOrion From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1255 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 10895 times:

And the reason why the F-35 hasn't been mentioned in this list is because...?


Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 10882 times:



Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 22):
And the reason why the F-35 hasn't been mentioned in this list is because...?

It's not a contender in the Indian MMRCA deal and thats why the F-35/F-22 etc are not involved in this discussion.


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4987 posts, RR: 40
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 10871 times:
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I know it is a bit off-topic, but since the picture of it was posted in this thread, I just wanted to express this personal opinion of mine. When the race for the ATF was still on, I liked the YF-23 design better than I did the YF-22 design. Just for the looks and beauty of it. I do not know if it was better or worse performing in flight testing, and also do not know if it was more promising or less promising then the YF-22 which now has become the Raptor. I just do not know enough about the quality of both the designs. I only know that I liked and still like the YF-23 design, which looks a little bit like a Lockheed Blackbird, a lot better.

Sorry for the interruption, back to the topic. Here I can not say which fighter plane would be better for India. There are so many good designs out there nowadays. Many newly designed planes, but also some very mature and proven to be still highly capable designs. Whatever will be selected will be the plane the Indians like best for the price they have in mind. I have no idea which way this will go.


25 JakeOrion : My mistake, I didn't read the OP's statement correctly.
26 Jackonicko : Alien The OP set the Scenario: “High altitude Himalayas on one flank, and enemy F-16 squadrons based less than 10 minutes away on the other.” Then
27 MDorBust : Hows that Russian carrier coming for you guys?
28 Checksixx : First...yes, it is your opinion, not a fact. Advanced systems are great and all, but there has been no combat between the two to make that a fact...s
29 Jackonicko : $138 m is the F-22A 2008 unit flyaway cost to the US DoD. It's been higher. It will be higher again. The price will certainly be higher to non US cust
30 KAUSpilot : That F-16 is the meanest looking one to me. It looks like some kind of vicious insect with all the protrusions and bristling hardpoints. Based on econ
31 Post contains links Alien : Now Jack don't make me quote some of your material from another forum. I am priveledged to be able to talk to a great many people in the know, and al
32 Checksixx : Sweet...please list some and post some links to the results, I'd love to see them. " target=_blank>http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...urope Doesn
33 TGIF : Since the F-22 isn't in the Indian MMRCA contest, will you please use some other thread (Best fighter WVR thread or something) to play F-22 vs. EF...
34 Alien : Back on topic. The following assumes Anetistan does not have the same anti American fetish that some other nations that border Pakistan and the Himala
35 Wvsuperhornet : Until they need something then we will see.
36 IronDuke08 : Well, if it were my money, at the moment, I'd say my finalists are the Typhoon and F/A-18E/F, and I would select the Super Hornet because of its excel
37 Jackonicko : Alien, I'd question whether anyone who can't spell the word 'priveledged' and who makes the judgements that you do is likely to have much access to go
38 Checksixx : Since this discussion is about a hypothetical situation simply based on that discussion, will you please refrain from telling us to use another threa
39 Post contains links MDorBust : Apparently the cost is more in line with $136.3mil http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,353665,00.html
40 Jackonicko : Yeah, that's right. Because Fox (how apposite that they use the Sun as their source) know better than the UK MoD, the UK NAO, their equivalents in all
41 MDorBust : Never consider that people other than the Govt are capable of doing simple math, and that maybe the Govt doesn't want to admit how much the aircraft
42 Alien : It's not just Fox Jack. It's Bloomberg, The Financial Times and the Saudi MOD. Lets give you the benefit of the doubt though. You where using old num
43 Comorin : Thanks all for the wonderful information presented here. I was too busy watching 'Carrier' on PBS last night (amazing!) to step back in. Some observat
44 Post contains links Alien : Well Jack both Bloomberg and The Financial Times are good enough for CEOs CFOs., CIOs, investors, bankers as well as other people in financial and ex
45 Jackonicko : If you believe Bloomberg and the FT over the NAO and UK MoD, then there's no arguing with you. Bloomberg and the FT rely on non specialised journalist
46 Comorin : Enough already with the ding-dong battle on F-22 vs Typhoon - its off-topic and in the olden days, this would have been settled with a Duel
47 EPA001 : You are right about that. Although it can be very informative to read about different opinions about different planes, the F-22 is not for sale to an
48 Jackonicko : The F-22 wins over Typhoon, no arguments, no controversy. No need for duelling. Alien is trying to make out that a warmed over teen series fighter (th
49 EPA001 : That is indeed highly debatable compared to the Eurofighter, Rafale, Grippen, the MiG's,......
50 Alien : Sorry Jack, wrong again, the Super was designed in the late 80's early 90's time frame. You as the posh, expert, journo you make yourself out to be s
51 Jackonicko : The Super Hornet shares the same basic aerodynamic configuration as the Heritage Hornet. It dates back to the YF-17. The Typhoon is a fully unstable d
52 Jackonicko : You accuse me of "spouting nonsense" and of not backing up what I say with verifiable sources. I'm content that any intelligent reader can read here w
53 Comorin : Alien, I'm confused: Is the Delta/Canard combo outdated? Does that imply Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen are aerodynamically outdated?
54 Jackonicko : Ask an American, and he'll tell you that Delta Canards are outdated. Ask a European and he'll tell you the opposite. I'd suggest that a Canard is a mo
55 Comorin : Thanks for explaining! Fluid Mechanics same in UK and US, I presume!
56 NoUFO : And so on ... I can only speak for Luftwaffe (not that I'm a spokesperson, but in this case I followed a debate between people who really know a thin
57 Checksixx : It shares a basic design, thats all. The aerodynamic config of the super bug is WAY different than the heritage hornet. This is not the place for a f
58 Jackonicko : In service RAF Typhoons have now dropped EPW and PW, and dumb 1,000-lb bombs. They've also done day and night strafe. By July 2007, the only Block II
59 Alien : AESA equiped Rhinos have been out in the fleet for a while. They have not yet been deployed in squadron service. Detachments of AESA equiped Rhinos h
60 Jackonicko : I'll be interested to see whether Rosey actually goes. Whether -106 and -213 go with it. And if they do, with what Bu No.s. And if they are Block IIs
61 Post contains links Alien : Exact performance of the APG-79 is classified so frankly you don't know what you are talking about. But since you insist here are just a few examples
62 Ferrypilot : Shooting another guy in the back is "mean as you can get" ...no matter what kind of flying machine is employed.
63 Checksixx : That's excellent news...I wish we got more coverage of stuff like that over here. Alien, in all fairness to Jackonicko, both types of RADAR offer adv
64 Alien : You are of course forgetting leading edge root extensions which do everything a canard does without any of the disadvantages such as weight, compleci
65 Jackonicko : LERXes and fixed Canard foreplanes serve the same purpose in a stable aircraft. You don't need me to explain why a powered, moving canard control surf
66 Checksixx : You can't use any RADAR without alerting everyone of your presence.
67 F27Friendship : I explained the difference to Alien in a different thread some time ago, it seams he has a very short memory.
68 Jackonicko : I don't think that fact, explanation, correction, argument or debate will ever deflect Alien from what he "knows" to be right.
69 Alien : No, it is a very inefficient and sloppy method for improving lift at high AOA. LERX and large control surfaces perform the same function more efficie
70 Jackonicko : A LERX generates lift ahead of the centre of gravity. At some angles of attack it will generate vortices which may help high Alpha handling and which
71 MadameConcorde : From all the live demos I have seen at air shows I would choose Eurofighters-Typhoons. A whole squadron of them.
72 F27Friendship : no, you are mixing up 2 things (again). Yes, a strake (what you call a LERX) is more efficient in creating a higher CL-max and thus higher angles of
73 Comorin : Mme. Concorde, do civilians get to see military jets in action at air shows? If so, can you recommend any? Thanks
74 CHRISBA777ER : Have to say Alien, you come across as incredibly casutic and arrogant on here. Why you feel the need to be this way is unclear to me.
75 F27Friendship : well, ILA Berlin starts in 2 weeks!
76 Flipdewaf : I think i'm right in saying this (not so big on stability and control) but don't fixed canards tend to operate in a semi stalled condition so that MT
77 F27Friendship : well, I don't think that is the case, as a stalled surface would create a lot of turbulent flow that would f*&k up the flow over your wing. What you
78 Pope : These are absurd hypotheticals. Aircraft are purchased to complement one another within the entire military capability of the country doing the buying
79 F27Friendship : I think the scenario was described in the opening post
80 ANZUS340 : These arguments are always so easy to predict. The Europeans say the Typhoon is equal to the Raptor in capabilities.The Americans harp on about what a
81 Jackonicko : I don't think anyone is claiming that Typhoon and F-22 are equal. It's about availability, versatility and cost effectiveness.
82 Post contains links Alien : Agreed. At 50 million each you get a Super Hornet that does everything you need as well as the availability to land on a carrier. http://www.aviation
83 Jackonicko : Typhoon is NOT "$125 m a pop." It's £42 m, €62 m unit flyaway. That's about $80 m. You've been told the real, fully audited and validated unit flya
84 Pope : But you don't describe what they already have. Is this the very first aircraft they are purchasing? How much will they have left for ammo and missile
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