Brazil issues 120-aircraft request to five fighter manufacturers
By Craig Hoyle
Brazil has revived its delayed search for a next-generation multirole combat aircraft, and in early June issued requests for information to five bidders for its new F-X2 contest. Its initial requirement is for a batch of 36 fighters, although the total programme is for 120 aircraft to be delivered from 2014 until post-2020.
Bidders for the new contest have been restricted to the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen NG (Next Generation) and the Sukhoi Su-35. The selected type will replace some of the Brazilian air force's Alenia/Embraer AMX ground-attack aircraft and its upgraded Northrop F-5 fighters, plus a recently acquired batch of ex-French air force Dassault Mirage 2000s.
Industry sources say the RFI requests the delivery of an "established, proven airframe" with supersonic performance, network connectivity and multirole capabilities. The document does not specify whether companies should offer an active electronically scanned array radar with the aircraft, but says both within- and beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles should be supplied.
The F-X2 programme also includes an offset requirement worth 100% of the total acquisition costs, with licensed manufacturing of the selected fighter's airframe, avionics and engines requested during the life of the programme.
Brazil's earlier F-X fighter contest was abandoned in 2005 due to budgetary pressures, and the replacement project had been tipped for launch early this year. However, the defence ministry's new shortlist will come as a disappointment to Lockheed, which was interested in offering its F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
Speaking earlier this month, Embraer officials said that unlike the previous contest, local industry will not be encouraged to partner directly with the bidding F-X2 companies, and that the Brazilian government and air force will instead head this part of the project.
N328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6222 posts, RR: 3 Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I guess one question is — will this be an interim buy or long-term? Seems like a lot of countries are just biding their time until the F-35 comes online.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
Dougbr2006 From Brazil, joined Oct 2006, 383 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I am really surprised that Embraer didn't't look into building their own strike fighter to fill this role, after all they have had the time and also experience with the AMX joint venture, surely home built would be cheaper and also good for the economy of the country too !
Also surely the USAF has some good condition low timers laying around in the desert to offer, also new high tech from the USA will have restrictions for Brazil, I can't remember the level of restrictions, but all aircraft supplied in the past ex USAF were degraded technology machines. Even the two blackhawks given to Brazil for drug patrilling had most of the high tech gear ripped out prior to delivery !!!
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8492 posts, RR: 43 Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Addd (Thread starter): The F-X2 programme also includes an offset requirement worth 100% of the total acquisition costs, with licensed manufacturing of the selected fighter's airframe, avionics and engines requested during the life of the programme.
Might as well save the trouble and just pay a visit to Moscow. This requirement makes it extremely difficult for other manufacturers.
Personally, I hope that somehow we end up with Rafales.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
Scouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3255 posts, RR: 10 Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3): Might as well save the trouble and just pay a visit to Moscow. This requirement makes it extremely difficult for other manufacturers.
IIRC some of the building work on the Saudi Eurofighters (if it ever happens) will happen locally.
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4429 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Addd (Thread starter):
Bidders for the new contest have been restricted to the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen NG (Next Generation) and the Sukhoi Su-35. The selected type will replace some of the Brazilian air force's Alenia/Embraer AMX ground-attack aircraft and its upgraded Northrop F-5 fighters, plus a recently acquired batch of ex-French air force Dassault Mirage 2000s.
It is curious that the Gripen NG is the lone single-engined entry among this batch of medium to heavy multirole fighters. The Falcon looks like a natural fit for the missions and aircraft to be replaced, and obsolescence in the F-16's case seems to be a lame excuse for there is also the F-35 from LM. Sanction concerns also do not fly, as the Gripen with a high US content and the Super Hornet are in the shortlist. It's almost as if a close decision on the most capable affordable offering is being avoided like in the Swiss contest.
Quoting N328KF (Reply 1): I guess one question is — will this be an interim buy or long-term? Seems like a lot of countries are just biding their time until the F-35 comes online.
The article stated that the 36 frames would just be the initial buy. The expected completion of the project after 2020, places it in the medium term.
Quoting N328KF (Reply 1): Seems like a lot of countries are just biding their time until the F-35 comes online.
Of course, a lot of things could happen in the meantime. However, LockMart's F-16 and F-35 not being shortlisted for this competition doesn' paint a very rosy picture.
Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 4): IIRC some of the building work on the Saudi Eurofighters (if it ever happens) will happen locally.
A broadly similar arrangement was offered to India.....
Quote: "EADS, representing the European consortium that manufactures the Eurofighter Typhoon, says: 'As part of our industrial co-operation offer, we invite India to become a member of the successful Eurofighter family. India is our partner of choice and we are interested in long-lasting political, industrial and military relations'."
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3): Quoting Addd (Thread starter):
The F-X2 programme also includes an offset requirement worth 100% of the total acquisition costs, with licensed manufacturing of the selected fighter's airframe, avionics and engines requested during the life of the programme.
Might as well save the trouble and just pay a visit to Moscow. This requirement makes it extremely difficult for other manufacturers.
I am sure that Eurofighter would be happy for local assembly of the Typhoon airframe but is it realistic to ask for local manufacture of all the major systems in the aircraft?
N328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6222 posts, RR: 3 Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Art (Reply 6): I am sure that Eurofighter would be happy for local assembly of the Typhoon airframe but is it realistic to ask for local manufacture of all the major systems in the aircraft?
The way 100% offset is achieved is that...well, say the value of the sale to Nation Y from Nation X is US$5bil. Nation X does not have to build the entire aircraft and all components there. Instead, Nation X may build enough of a certain component across more airframes than Nation Y is buying. This means that if Nation Y is buying 50 airframes, Nation X may achieve the offsets by simply having the rear fuselage of 200 airframes built by a manufacturer in Nation Y.
The offset doesn't even have to come from the same project. Nation X, home to a large multi-disciplined defense concern, may choose to build $5bil of tank hulls in Nation Y as part of the offset agreement. This could be the case if the original company from Nation X is the integrator of those tanks or even if the tanks are a product of another company from that nation.
It gets complicated, but the end result is that 100% offsets means that the offering company must spend as much as it takes in.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting N328KF (Reply 7): The offset doesn't even have to come from the same project.
I understand from your post that this is a practical way of achieving offset but the Flight article refers to "licensed manufacturing of the selected fighter's airframe, avionics and engines".
N328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6222 posts, RR: 3 Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Art (Reply 8): I understand from your post that this is a practical way of achieving offset but the Flight article refers to "licensed manufacturing of the selected fighter's airframe, avionics and engines".
Then it sounds like the approach that I mentioned where you would give a Brazilian firm or firms the contract for components beyond that of just Brazilian airframes, so airframes of the same type for other nations.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
Quote: "Boeing, Dassault and Saab on 2 February submitted their responses to an October 2008 request for proposals for Brazil's F-X2 fighter procurement.
Respectively tendering proposals for the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale F3+ and Gripen NG, the companies are contesting a $2.2 billion requirement for an initial batch of 36 aircraft. However, the F-X2 programme is expected to run well into the 2020s, with subsequent orders expected for a further 64-84 fighters."
AirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2529 posts, RR: 6 Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I'll be surprised if the Rafale F3+ doesn't win this one...
TGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 273 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 10): the companies are contesting a $2.2 billion requirement for an initial batch of 36 aircraft.
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 11): I'll be surprised if the Rafale F3+ doesn't win this one...
I agree. It seems as Brazil and France have increased their cooperation lately and the Rafale seems like a logical continuation, unless they're looking to diversify.
$61M a piece shouldn't be a problem for SH and Gripen NG but are there any official quotations for the Rafale F3+? This is perhaps a non-problem since I'd guess Dassault would do anything to get an export customer. I'm sure Dassault wouldn't mind losing a couple of bucks in Brazil if it meant they would gain a whole lot more in India.
Quote: "March 24/09: Dassault’s acquisition of a large stake in Thales led to Thales’ refusal to sell Saab the RBE2 AESA radar beyond the Gripen Demo stage. In response, Saab and SELEX Galileo sign an agreement to develop an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar for the JAS-39NG. The arrangement is initially aimed at Brazil’s fighter competition, where it leverages Selex Galileo’s strong pedigree equipping Brazil’s F-5BR fighters (Grifo-F radar) and AMX light attack jets (Scipio radar). Once integrated and proven, however, the AESA upgrade would be available to any Gripen customer."
Dassault is working hard to bolster its position in this contest. Not to be outdone, SAAB does some maneuverings of its own, after being denied by Thales.
Quote: "Per Aviation Week’s March 10/09 report from Aero India, the radar will use a Vixen 500 AESA front end, with 'back end' modules from the existing PS-05/A. Using those back end modules simplifies integration, and also avoids the control issues inherent in American alternatives. As it happens, the 2 firms have a long history of radar partnerships. Ericsson (now Saab’s) partner on the original PS-05/A was Ferranti, which became GEC-Marconi, then BAE Systems, and now Selex Galileo. Selex was also Saab’s partner in the recent M-AESA R&D project."
It looks like this development has strenghtened Rafale's bid a bit, but at the same time, removed one uncertainty for the Gripen. It remains to be seen if the $2.2B budget would buy 36 twin-engined Rafales, or just be enough for 36 single-engined Gripen NGs - if that.
JoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5051 posts, RR: 29 Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3): Might as well save the trouble and just pay a visit to Moscow. This requirement makes it extremely difficult for other manufacturers.
I don't know about that. Look at the issues India is having with Russia on thier aircraft carrier/Mig program.
Acheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1418 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 15): I don't know about that. Look at the issues India is having with Russia on thier aircraft carrier/Mig program.
I think Sukhoi has been able to really stand out among all the russian plane makers, so I wouldn't rule them out. And I'm pretty sure they have been able to learn a thing or two while having Boeing giving a bit of guidance in the SSJ program.
So, equaling Sukhoi to MiG its out of the question, IMHO.
JoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5051 posts, RR: 29 Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
My point was concerning Russian industry in general, not Sukhoi in particular. The past decade has given us a plethora of Russian industrial horror stories.
The question is not whether or not the Russians can produce quality products, it is whether or not you can trust Russian companies to deliver what was promised.
Acheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1418 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 17): My point was concerning Russian industry in general, not Sukhoi in particular. The past decade has given us a plethora of Russian industrial horror stories.
The question is not whether or not the Russians can produce quality products, it is whether or not you can trust Russian companies to deliver what was promised.
True, but I think things need to be put in context as well. The carrier for example, has been pretty much neglected for who knows how long, and I don't think it was meant to be a full lenght deck carrier, so given the complexity of the project, I would have been surprised if it didn't face any kind of delay and going over budget.
And in the end, delays and budget overruns are not a russian thing alone. Just ask Bell.
Anyway, I do think that Sukhoi at least can deliver on its promises. The other russian companies...well...
TGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 273 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 14):
It looks like this development has strenghtened Rafale's bid a bit
Would you say the Thales RBE2 have greater potential than a Selex/Saab AESA? Selex and Saab aren't exactly beginners when it comes to AESA technology and I'm sure the end result will please Brazil or any future Gripen costumer.
Rule them out of what? Sukhoi weren't among the shortlisted and despite what the minister of Def said in the news some month ago, they, EF or F-16 aren't coming back into the evaluation. This is between Boeing, Dassault and Saab. Final technical evaluation has just begun:
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4429 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting TGIF (Reply 19): Would you say the Thales RBE2 have greater potential than a Selex/Saab AESA? Selex and Saab aren't exactly beginners when it comes to AESA technology and I'm sure the end result will please Brazil or any future Gripen costumer.
The advantage is not with the radar capability itself but the headstart that the RBE2 enjoys.
Quoting TGIF (Reply 19): This is between Boeing, Dassault and Saab. Final technical evaluation has just begun:
This is where Boeing's strength will come to the fore.....
Quote: "they will be visited and evaluated as to their industrial and logistic installations, maintenance workshops, laboratories for the development of systems, and operational squadrons.
[.....]
During this process, the Project Management Group maintained its focus on the aspects of the competing bids as regards commercial, technical, operational, logistic, offset-related, technological and technology-transfer issues."
.....perhaps with the "technology transfer" card being its weakest suit.
Rheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2066 posts, RR: 6 Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 5): It's almost as if a close decision on the most capable affordable offering is being avoided like in the Swiss contest.
Switzerland did not avoid anything reasonable. It would not be logical to include a looser of the nineties-contest again (the Gripen lost too in the nineties, but was not proven enough at that time).
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4429 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 21): Switzerland did not avoid anything reasonable. It would not be logical to include a looser of the nineties-contest again (the Gripen lost too in the nineties, but was not proven enough at that time).
We've been over this in the F-5 replacement thread.....
I refer you back to Replies 58, 67, 73, 80 and 83. The simple answer is -- it was a different aircraft that lost then, to a different fighter, under different mission parameters. More damning were reports of JAS-39 not meeting IAF requirements. I highly doubt the proposed Super Viper would yield anything to a Gripen NG.
If anything, current offerings may even need to be "dumbed-down" if only F-5 type missions would be all those will have to do for their forecast life. I had even granted that the Gripen was well suited for that requirement - but not in this case. However, we're dragging this thread off-topic, now that the Falcon is already eliminated. Here's something to right the course.....
"However, its single engine might deter the Brazilians should they seek to diversify their inventory and operating capability. The engine is a General Electric F414G, similar to the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet's F414-400."
What if the FAB pulls a Ching-kuo with the Gripen together with Embraer?
That would look interesting. Much pricier though.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4429 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 23): What if the FAB pulls a Ching-kuo with the Gripen together with Embraer? duck
That would look interesting. Much pricier though.
That's plausible -- joint production would gain Embraer valuable experience making modern jet fighters while SAAB gets to enjoy lower manufacturing costs and Embraer's big, established civilian operations --- and perhaps, wider global exposure and more sales as a result (especially in an economic climate such as this). In a limited way, they had already done it with the ISR variants of the E-145. And it's a long, expensive road even to a medium, multirole fighter only. However, the possibility that Embraer might overwhelm them could give SAAB some pause.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
25 Wvsuperhornet: I wouldn't say that the US offered the same deal to india with the Superhornet and I would expect them to do the same with Brazil. The rafales would
26 PPVRA: Latest news is that there's three teams of pilots and engineers heading to the US, France and Sweden to test the aircraft. Expectation is that we will
27 Acheron: I meant it as not to rule them out as manufacturer. I'm very aware they are out of the FX-2. The chances of a conflict between Brazil and Venezuela a
28 Rheinwaldner: If the F-16 got better since then by an amount X then the F-18, Gripen, Rafale got better by more than X. In any ranking surely the F-16 would not be
29 TGIF: Yea, can't argue against that. And they'll be able to demonstrate it during the trials, if they fixed the hiccups from the Swiss evaluation. Not sure
30 DEVILFISH: Except that there is no assurance that the competition got better by more than the quantity "X". You are grossly underestimating the amount of develo
31 Acheron: And then, there is this one: http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090407/120955182.html So, either the brazilians plan to cancel the competition(again) or this
32 DEVILFISH: Or, the Russians are trying very hard to get back into the game after being eliminated. From the link..... Quote: "MOSCOW, April 7 (RIA Novosti) - Ru
33 Acheron: This is not the first time the PAK-FA and "Brazil" have been mentioned in the same news piece. Actually, it happened several times a few months ago s
34 DEVILFISH: But not the "Su-35 and Brazil" in the same breath -- as I take it to be "the aircraft" that was being referred to in the article. A lot of us here we
35 Acheron: Well, to be honest with you, we can only assume what's going on right now in the F-X2 competition but at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if everyt
36 Wvsuperhornet: I know but judging from the counter insurgency that columbia has done at will in venezuelan territory Hugo may want to think twice about attacking th
37 Acheron: They have?. Sorry, care to tell me where, or maybe you are confusing Ecuador with Venezuela?. And in the end, it doesn't mean anything because Venezu
38 F27Friendship: so what did they get for buying 15 frames?? I only know the offer for the Netherlands which would include buying 85 frames wasn't really impressive..
39 SAS A340: When South Africa chose the Gripen platform for its future defence, it did in many ways mark a new beginning. Through technology transfer, education
40 DEVILFISH: Here we go again..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ew-hope-for-fx-2-fighter-deal.html Quote: "Current economic conditions could force the Br
41 PPVRA: I just read on a Brazilian "Airliner.net" that the FAB has asked Embraer to "start talking" to the prospective companies. The news story is linked bel
42 TGIF: I also think this makes some sense, if the economy allows it. The F-X2 deal stays at the 36 frames and instead of using the option to buy 120-somethi
43 Lumberton: If the Brazilians open the competition to the F-35 this will be another huge blow to the Rafale. Rafale is considered the front runner here and Sarko
44 DEVILFISH: Update: Best and final offers submitted by the F-X2 competing companies..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...lian-f_x2-fighter-competition.html
45 SAS A340: Ok,soon there probably will be a decision.... Brasilia is expected to announce in September which shortlisted company -- Boeing of the United States,
46 EBJ1248650: This one will go to either the Rafale or the Super Hornet. And I wouldn't be surprised to see the Rafale get it.
47 PPVRA: There's a small scandal going with the purchase of French Scorpenes. The deal cost about 10X as much as Thyssen's HDW sub deal and are apparently more
48 Wvsuperhornet: You dont know much about current conflicts, suggest you read up a little. " target=_blank>http://www.thelocal.se/21062/20090803/ This has been going
49 TGIF: It is NOT "the only bid that includes an offer to share technology with Brazil." Sharing technology is a part of the requirements. Both Saab and Boei
50 EBJ1248650: It might be that drop tanks are included as a normal part of the airplane and extra tanks would be included in the logistics support part of the deal
51 PPVRA: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/an-ale-47.htm IR countermeasures are in there. By the way, news in Brazil is that they should pick the wi
52 DEVILFISH: The French must be careful not to overdraw from that wellspring of goodwill, or they might find the Morocco scene reprised.
53 Baron95: Not a big deal The Mirage 2000 and F5-E "front line" fighters are very young and capable.
54 Baron95: I find it odd that the package includes 28 Slammers and 28 Sidewinders - meaning the request if for 28 BVR and 28 WVR/IR missiles. Are they going to a
55 AirRyan: Well that's easy, just don't go rogue dictator on the world and you'll be fine. That Super Hornet deal looks awfully hard to beat, especially for the
56 PPVRA: Not so simple. When we had a dictator that was basically on the pockets of the CIA, we still ended up with a ban on US arms imports. Another thing is
57 EBJ1248650: Rafale has growth potential, to be sure, but it's already in service and doing well with the French AF and Navy. I suspect that cost, more than anyth
58 SAS A340: It's now delayed until October at the earliest.....
59 Wvsuperhornet: Then it will be next year and so on...blah blah blah!!!
60 Acheron: Considering I live there, had relatives serving in the venezuelan armed forces and friends serving in the colombian side and been on the border sever
61 DEVILFISH: Well, if this is any indication..... Quite unusual for the President of the buying country to tout an entrant..... French firm ahead in race for Brazi
62 SAS A340: It sounds like it is the sharing of technology that makes the biggest bang...and totally independent regarding technology from the US(???) President "
63 Flagon: I found this extract from the french news paper "Le Point" Rafale in danger in Brazil….but in sight in Kuwait The sale of the Rafale to Brazil might
64 AirRyan: The Gripen is probably the least qualified of all the candidates; it's payload and range are just too low. But given the way Brazil has run this cont
65 EBJ1248650: Kuwait is looking to replace it's Hornets?
66 PPVRA: The most I've heard so far from the Gripen is that it may be the airforce's commander favorite choice. Also Embraer's as well as many industry partne
67 DEVILFISH: Premature public releases may be counterproductive. Early announcement is again the norm there. http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?Item
68 SAS A340: He also used the word STRATEGIC. The news today has been that Rafale was now offered at a 40% discount but that has bean denied by Dassault Aviation
69 DEVILFISH: Another instance of the left hand not knowing what the right was doing? And from the link..... Quote: "PARIS, Nov 6 (Reuters) - French aircraft manuf
70 SAS A340: Some update. Seems like the decision not will pop up before Christmas,the three choices has bean under evaluation where the Gripen was supposed to be
71 EBJ1248650: Kuwait's F/A-18Ds aren't that old, are they? Are the Rafales to replace them or augment them?
72 Lumberton: Decision could be a long time coming.... http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest
73 Lumberton: More anxious nights for Sarko! http://www.reuters.com/article/idCNN0510539620100105?rpc=44
74 Lumberton: Lula's term is up next October and he is constitutionally barred from running for a third. Since he has a personal stake in the Rafale selection, they
75 Wingman: The report sounds a bit bogus, it claims the Rafale placed last in the technical evaluation with the primary Air Force concern being price, certainly
76 Lumberton: This site is pretty much...IMVHO... an advocacy site of European aviation solutions, but its advice to the French is interesting--discount! http://g2g
77 TGIF: The evaluation report is not made by "FAB", but from a committee called COPAC (Coordinating Committee for the Combat Aircraft Program). Hence, it doe
78 Lumberton: See the article I posted above where this thing could drag out past Lula's term. Even if Lula does "select" a winner, his successor could "reopen" th
79 TGIF: Yea, I totally agree. I Forgot to add that to my post. I can really see this become a F-X3 thing... which I think is unfortunately for all parties in
80 DEVILFISH: Not too far-fetched with the disagreements being aired..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ntest-prompts-further-dispute.html And this time a
81 Devilfish: And not to be outdone..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...ahead-of-fighter-jet-decision.html "Swedish royals visit Brazil ahead of fighter jet
82 SAS A340: And what can they do?? smile and shake hands,doesen't mean **** by the time they are on the plane back home,seriosly,this has to go to the Dassault,B
83 Shmertspionem: They could lobby with the Norwegian Nobel committee to give Lula the 2010 peace prize? after all Obama got it for his first 14 days in office in whic
84 Devilfish: We will soon see how effective those are after Easter (if they abide by their announced schedule).
85 Devilfish: As their self-imposed deadline had come and gone, another possibility surfaces..... http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...Fighters-Au-Courant-in-Time
86 DEVILFISH: Defense-Aerospace reports that the deal between Dassault and the UAE is moving. Maybe we'd see some movement here, too.
87 DEVILFISH: http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale_brazil2.jpg http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...fale-News/page101&highlight=rafale Quote: "Regarding Brazil, M
88 Lumberton: Yes, still up in the air.... http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest
89 DEVILFISH: That might explain the disappearance of an earlier report from Farnborough saying an announcement for the Rafale's selection was forthcoming. This cam
90 DEVILFISH: Supplier selection expected to resume in November..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...de-on-new-fighter-in-november.html Quote: "Jobim reitera
91 DEVILFISH: The latest in a long line of pronouncements..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...ghter-jet-tender-soon%3A-lula.html Brazil to decide fighter je
92 TGIF: There has been at least one report like this every month for over a year. Lula and Jobim have the decision making skills of a four year old in a cand
93 CamiloA380: The ideal fighter IMO, is the JAS-39. It is small, fast, high-tech, manoeuvrable in low altitude, and the most important thing is that it doesn't have
94 JoeCanuck: I was a supporter of the F-35 for Canada but I have come around to the 'get more for less' side. I think the Gripen is a fantastic plane for 1/3 - 1/4
95 DEVILFISH: Guess that's why Sarko wants to pull them aside and push them "discreetly" towards the "right" direction once more..... http://www.defense-aerospace.
96 SAS A340: Rumor says that even Mr Lula prefer the Gripen now.....? Decision is near. Date. Nov 9 , 2010 "Representatives from the Brazilian sector aeorespacial
97 DEVILFISH: It seems it has now become a battle of press releases and the readers are left to decide which source to believe..... http://www.defenseindustrydaily
98 DEVILFISH: This may yet be Boeing's strongest offer..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...nk-in-bid-for-brazil-contract.html Boeing proposes Embraer link i
99 Lumberton: The timing is very interesting as well.
100 AirRyan: Those would be an excellent purchase for the new Iraqi Air Force. And with the UK axing up to 40% of their Challenger tank force, hey - spend some of
101 DEVILFISH: It was reported that the UAE was trying to sell those to Egypt..... http://tacticalreport.com/view_news/...gypt_Rafale_and_Mirage_2000-9/1303 .....Bu
102 Spacepope: http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-mar...brazil-air-force-prefers-f-18-jets Wikileaks claims Brazil prefers the Super Bug, but tech transfer issues are
103 DEVILFISH: While France is willing to give it all (at least, according to this)..... "France prepared to give Brazil fighter jet's hi-tech: cables" http://www.de
104 keesje: The cable last January said, however, that Brazilian Defense Minister Nelson Jobim was showing renewed interest in Boeing's “industrial cooperation
105 DEVILFISH: As near as it ever was (could be?)..... "Brazil close to deciding fighter jet buy: press" http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...ding-fighter-jet-buy
106 SAS A340: Finally,it will be nice when this comes to a end,and sadly i think that SAAB once again has to step aside for the "big boys" The Air force want the G
107 Shmertspionem: Here's something interesting I didn't know about ... given the recent gripen radar episode wrt Norway. i'm wondering how this will play. I'm also surp
108 SAS A340: I am starting to sense a " it's our way or the highway" or "either are you with us or against us" propaganda here if the above is true. Don't underes
109 TGIF: On the other hand, we have this: http://oglobo.globo.com/pais/mat/201...e-cacas-cabera-dilma-923210650.asp Google-English: http://translate.google.co
110 SAS A340: Your guess are probably very well founded,the Swedish TV Chanel 4 report that the decision is postponed to the future to the exact reason you are ref
111 mffoda: Quote: The U.S. cables also contended that the Rafale had "a high level of U.S. content" - and said the French bid could be undermined by telling Bra
112 DEVILFISH: And according to defense-aerospace, we might have to wait for F-X3..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...on-brazil-fighter-competition.html Quo
113 mffoda: There is more on aviationweek... Embraer Suggests Super Tucano-F/A-18 Linkage http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...%20Super%20Tucano-F/A-18%20Linkag
114 mffoda: There is more on the strategypage from Wikileaks.... Rafale "yesterday's technology." "France's Rafale fighter continues to have a hard time getting e
115 DEVILFISH: France remains very optimistic..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...winning-brazil-plane-contract.html France 'confident' of winning Brazil pl
116 keesje: I think we have familiar to the tone US diplomats used when discussing competitors, heads of states with an own opinion or the ones that a different
117 mffoda: I think we have familiar to the tone US diplomats used when discussing competitors, heads of states with an own opinion or the ones that a different o
118 flagon: I am not sure whether having the best product or not is really the point when selling fighters, as you probably agree it has a lot to do with politic
119 keesje: I was talking about about you taking the cable of a US diplomat as an indication of the quality of a competing aircraft. It has become embarrassing c
120 wingman: That's their job. Some diplomats deal with visas and others deal with promoting their country's goods and services. I would challenge you to name a si
121 mffoda: I agree with you for most part Flagon. My comments were more directed at post before mine where that individual insinuates that US Diplomats are any
122 DEVILFISH: Latest news is the recent floods could jeopardize the Gripen's and Rafale's prospect in Brazil..... http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...8fc2ff-b256
123 cpd: That'd be the same as a foreign diplomat describing the Super Hornet as a sluggish sitting duck, or a tarted up old airplane. You'd give that about a
124 DEVILFISH: Well, since they're back to talking used aircraft, any chance of getting the price of the UK's T1 Typhoons for retirement low enough to be competitive
125 DEVILFISH: Update: It appears the defense minister spoke too soon..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...n-fighter-competition-in-flux.html Dilma Pushes Fig
126 tarheelwings: Update: According to Bloomberg, Brazil's new president (Dilma Rousseff) is now saying that Boeing's F-18 is the best option for the nation's air forc
127 SandroMag: Its official, the FX-2 Programme was suspended by the brazilian presidente Dilma Rousseff. Bye Bye new fighters
128 A342: Ok, what about those ~60 Mirage 2000s that the UAE wants Dassault to buy back as part of a potential Rafale deal? I imagine this could be a good optio
129 DEVILFISH: Not quite yet, it appears. Brazil does not seem to be interested in used fighters anymore. Latest news here..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles
130 CamiloA380: Quite interesting Sukhoi wants to gets back in the game ... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...g-push-for-f-x2-bid-in-brazil.html
131 A342: From what I can see, the article neither explicitly states that or implies it...
132 DEVILFISH: I was among those here to first suggest the UAE's Mirage 2000-9s as a very good, lower cost alternative for the FAB. News of French-Brazilian contact
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