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War In Georgia Questions?  
User currently offlineSIBILLE From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 479 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8270 times:

Seems the Russian airforce lost 2 or 4 aircrafts today in Georgia (South Ossetia). Any idea of wich type and how (ground fire, air to air)?

82 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8263 times:

This is what we hear from the media but is there a proof that these aircrafts were "lost"? With wars often comes propaganda.

Quoting SIBILLE (Thread starter):
Seems the Russian airforce lost 2 or 4 aircrafts today in Georgia




There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineFVTu134 From Russia, joined Aug 2005, 173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8261 times:

Lots of speculation. Nothing confirmed yet. The video footage which I saw only had Su-25's but those were Georgian. Since Su-24's were used in the strike my guess that's where the the damage could be. But again, nothing is confirmed yet... let's wait and see what happens, and hope that cooler heads prevail as this could bad for the whole region.

FVTu134



who decided that a Horizon should be HORIZONtal???
User currently offlineCURLYHEADBOY From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 940 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8171 times:



Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 2):
Lots of speculation. Nothing confirmed yet. The video footage which I saw only had Su-25's but those were Georgian. Since Su-24's were used in the strike my guess that's where the the damage could be. But again, nothing is confirmed yet... let's wait and see what happens, and hope that cooler heads prevail as this could bad for the whole region.

Definitely. I also saw footage of a couple destroyed tanks that could be Su-25s' job



If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9623 posts, RR: 68
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8182 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Here is a photo of a SU-24 taken over Georgia after a bombing run.

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20080808/i/r3349196071.jpg


User currently offlineCURLYHEADBOY From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 940 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8145 times:



Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 4):
Here is a photo of a SU-24 taken over Georgia after a bombing run.

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids...1.jpg

Here is some footage of a plane going down, can't tell what kind of jet is it though.




If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8112 times:



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 1):
This is what we hear from the media but is there a proof that these aircrafts were "lost"? With wars often comes propaganda.

Damn, I'm agreeing with Madame.

Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 2):
let's wait and see what happens, and hope that cooler heads prevail as this could bad for the whole region.

Doesn't matter anymore, things are going to go downhill from here.



LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineOsprey88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8079 times:



Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 4):
Here is a photo of a SU-24 taken over Georgia after a bombing run.

I saw that same picture here in a Reuters story and originally thought that aircraft was a MIG-31, which, in retrospect did not make a lot of sense, since I doubt you would see a -31 on a CAS mission. Definitely an SU-24 now that I look at it, the smaller swing wings give it away.

As to the original topic, I'll bet that the Russians probably lost those planes to ground fire, maybe from an SA-8 or SA-11, I'm fairly sure the Georgian's have both models. As for the Georgian Air Force, on paper they are supposed to own around 10 MIG-25's, but does anyone know if any of these are in a condition to fight?



"Reading departure signs in some big airports reminds me of the places I've been"
User currently offlineCURLYHEADBOY From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 940 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8062 times:



Quoting Osprey88 (Reply 7):
on paper they are supposed to own around 10 MIG-25's, but does anyone know if any of these are in a condition to fight?

Judging from the news coming in, looks like they have some and used them. Possibly they also lost one in the video I posted above, though I tend not to trust the news when it comes to early stages of a conflict.



If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
User currently offlineSIBILLE From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7911 times:



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 5):
Here is some footage of a plane going down, can't tell what kind of jet is it though

The cockpit window (I don't know the exact english word) seems intact and far from the main wreckage on the video. Seems the pilot ejected before the crash.


User currently offlineCURLYHEADBOY From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 940 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7835 times:

Russia reportedly aknowledged the loss of a Su-25 and a Tu-22M, while Georgia claims to have downed un to 10 Russian planes.
I am quite impressed of how daring those bomb runs at low altitude are carried out by the Russian AF, very risky indeed, not something you see from western forces that are usually very prudent until they're confident to have suppressed the most of the enemy air defences...



If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
User currently offlineFVTu134 From Russia, joined Aug 2005, 173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7803 times:

The crash footage is from an Su-25 which could be either Russian or Georgian as both have them. Since Russia confirmed they lost one, it could be that one. I also think the pilot ejected as early in the footage ground troops seem to have the canopy in their hands and it is some distance from the rest of the wreckage.

I was surprised to hear that a Tu-22 had been lost which means they are doing a lot more then ground support for their troops and they are indeed doing "strategic" bombing. It was also confirmed that Shipyards in the sea port had been hit which would be a confirmation that Russia is out to deliver some punch in stead of just supporting their ground troops.

As I said before, I hope that cooler heads will prevail. This is a tiny nation which has no value for either Russia or the US. They just happen to be at the centre of the political chess board.

FVTu134



who decided that a Horizon should be HORIZONtal???
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7756 times:

Russian news agency "War between Russia and Georgia orchestrated from USA"  Yeah sure

http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/co...09-08-2008/106046-russia_georgia-0

09.08.2008



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7711 times:



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 10):
I am quite impressed of how daring those bomb runs at low altitude are carried out by the Russian AF

The Su-25 doesn't do high altitude. If you want to hit something you're going to go low (and if you don't, you get Grozny).

Even in Afghanistan, the Su-25s constantly made their bomb/rocket runs within the launch envelope of rebel MANPADS and AAA, relying on their armour for survival. This worked out fairly well, with Soviet Su-25 losses in the 2nd half of the 80s being very low everything considered.

Su-17s in Afghanistan flew their missions to the outer edge of the range of the rebel air defenses, sacrificing a bit of accuracy for protection. Generally, Su-17/20/22s were only lost when pilots mistakenly descended too low on sorties.

Back to Georgia, the employment of the Tu-22M by the RuAF is more bad news for the region. It just spells 'random bombing'.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineGsosbee From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7704 times:



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
Russian news agency "War between Russia and Georgia orchestrated from USA"

We have seen this act before.  banghead 


User currently offlineSkywatch From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 923 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7679 times:



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
Russian news agency "War between Russia and Georgia orchestrated from USA"

I think I'm gonna print that out and frame it! So classic! Big grin

---Skywatch



------Forever Watchin' The Sky------
User currently offlineOsprey88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7663 times:



Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 11):
I was surprised to hear that a Tu-22 had been lost which means they are doing a lot more then ground support for their troops and they are indeed doing "strategic" bombing. It was also confirmed that Shipyards in the sea port had been hit which would be a confirmation that Russia is out to deliver some punch in stead of just supporting their ground troops.

It does seem as though they are starting to target Georgia's infrastructure, and I certainly hope that things do not escalate further, although I can only remember Russia's use of SCUDs and Fuel-Air Explosives on the Chechens in the 1990s.



"Reading departure signs in some big airports reminds me of the places I've been"
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7642 times:

The type of aircraft used and Putin's most recent remarks (..he does not seek an outright war..) seem an indication they would like to keep it appropriate in response.Of course the Russians are mad,because some of their troops have been killed and they willdo a great lot of dammage to Georgia. (The bombing of the harbour of Poti is an example ).
But so far Russia has not send large bombers or used big ordinance bombs...
Albeit the west is quick in pointing the finger on Moscow and use Chechnya as example,we should not forget who started that bloody aggression two days ago ..



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineSIBILLE From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7618 times:



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 10):
am quite impressed of how daring those bomb runs at low altitude are carried out by the Russian AF, very risky indeed, not something you see from western forces that are usually very prudent until they're confident to have suppressed the most of the enemy air defences...

Remember the Royal Air Force Tornados during first Irak war. They lost at least 7 or 8 aircrafts in the same conditions.......


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7610 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 17):
But so far Russia has not send large bombers

I don't know about you, but a Tu-22M seems pretty big to me.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 17):
we should not forget who started that bloody aggression two days ago

Let's not do the whole chicken-or-the-egg thing here, because Georgia has lots of stories to tell too. Just because it wasn't on TV two days ago doesn't mean that there wasn't stuff going on.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7587 times:

BTW, a story has been going around that Georgian forces just demolished a highway tunnel near the Georgia(S.Ossetia)/Russia(N.Ossetia) border. This is essentially the only prepared route connecting the two parts of Ossetia, and was reportedly used for the insertion of further Russian troops over the past day or two into S.Ossetia.

If the Georgians indeed succeeded in destroying this link, that could very well mean that there's a relatively small Russian military contingent (on the order of a mechanized/infantry regiment/brigade at most) cut off inside of S.Ossetia.



LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7567 times:

It's funny that Russia's past position on Kosovo (that it was an internal Yugoslav/Serbian matter) would seem to support Georgia.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 17):
But so far Russia has not send large bombers or used big ordinance bombs...

I guess they're holding off on the the 95s and 160s and nukes.  Yeah sure

Can the 95s or 160s carry any conventional "precision" weapons (like the SEAD Kh-15P)?

I doubt Russia would like to lose a Tu-95, let alone a Tu-160. That would be pretty embarrassing.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
Russian news agency "War between Russia and Georgia orchestrated from USA" Yeah sure

Funny how the first sentence reads: "The US administration urged for an immediate cease-fire in the conflict between Russia and Georgia over the unrecognized republic of South Ossetia."

Quoting LY744 (Reply 19):
I don't know about you, but a Tu-22M seems pretty big to me.

For this kind of conflict, where the 7000km range is not required, isn't it pretty similar in capability to the F-111?


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7558 times:



Quoting Analog (Reply 21):
isn't it pretty similar in capability to the F-111?

Way bigger.

Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 11):
doing a lot more then ground support for their troops and they are indeed doing "strategic" bombing. It was also confirmed that Shipyards in the sea port had been hit which would be a confirmation that Russia is out to deliver some punch in stead of just supporting their ground troops.

I think it's more of a sign that the RuAF is under pressure to do something. Actual CAS is a very difficult task that the Russian military, in its current state, is ill equipped to conduct. Bombing large static targets is much easier obviously, not requiring real time intelligence and co-ordination.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13184 posts, RR: 77
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7529 times:

Well the reports seen to suggest the Russians have lost at least one SU-25 and one TU-22M (Backfire).
Presumably, the TU-22M was outside the envelope of any MANPADS, it seems Georgia has the SA-11 system, so likely that downed it.
What kind of MANPADS do they have? Presumably Russian too, probably better than the ancient SA-7's, more likely the later ones, roughly comparable with the US Stinger.
A successful engagement with SA-11 does however suggest at least a partial AD network, which presumably the Russians will want to suppress.

Using TU-22M's seems a very blunt instrument, unlike B-52's, they won't be dropping JDAM style PGM's, is use of this aircraft to prove a point, or is using it a sign of the general lack of Russian PGM capabilities?
(Not saying they have not developed or deployed PGM's, they have, it's a case of have they got them in regular operation in most units?)

The low level attacks are not really like the RAF Tornados in 1991, 7 or 8 were not lost in low level, but they did undertake attacks to try and disable the (huge) Iraqi airfields, using JP223 anti runway weapons. SAM suppression largely worked, but the bases were teeming with AAA, even if largely fired blind, there was a lot of it.
These raids stopped when 1) It was clear the Iraqi AF were not going to put up a real fight, b) the stocks of JP223 were largely expended!


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7472 times:



Quoting GDB (Reply 23):
Using TU-22M's seems a very blunt instrument, unlike B-52's, they won't be dropping JDAM style PGM's, is use of this aircraft to prove a point, or is using it a sign of the general lack of Russian PGM capabilities?

There is another possibility: reconnaissance, apparently some Backfires have recce capability.

As for PGMs, there is nothing to suggest that the Russians have used any at all so far, and Chechen experience shows that they are not terribly likely to use them. Pilot qualification is probably still an issue, and the cost of PGMs is an important consideration too. I can see them using some of their anti-radar missiles to try and suppress Georgia's air defenses though (although that is only really applicable to the SA-11 batteries/detachments, the rest of their systems, SA-8, ZSU-23-4 etc. don't rely too heavily on radar).

BTW, if anyone is interested, 3 of the 4 crew members of the downed Backfire have been captured alive by the Georgians, while the 4th was apparently killed.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
25 Post contains links StasisLAX : The scope of the conflict is rapidly growing and is threatening to explode into an all-out Russian-Georgian war - it's getting uglier by the minute. I
26 StasisLAX : Great strategic move on Georgia's part. South Ossetia controls access to the vital Roki tunnel, one of a limited number of routes that cross the nort
27 CURLYHEADBOY : Of course I do mate! We lost one of our IDSs that way, downed the first day of war by AAA! Let's say at least we tried at night and not in full dayli
28 LY744 : It would have been, but the story has been proven false in the meantime, the tunnel appears to be intact and fully passable as of 10pm local time. Th
29 LY744 : More updates: - captured Tu-22M pilot (50 y.o. Colonel) in a hospital bed 'interview' stated that his mission was reconnaissance, not bombing - a Russ
30 StasisLAX : An important historical note: there has been considerable tension between Georgia with Russia for 15 years! Russia accused the Georgian government as
31 Post contains links StasisLAX : We don't have any reports on the extent of the damage, but the Russian military bombed Georgia's International Airport in the capital city of Tblisi e
32 Mig21UMD : Bad news, but if anyone would like to know how this will pan out I suggest you get your hands on Tom Clancy's novel / video game GHOST RECON. Made 7 y
33 Bjornstrom : Let's put some NATO fighters on CAP and try to calm down the situation. Im sure the Russians would prefer not to go into dogfights with Eurofighters a
34 StasisLAX : IMHO, yes. The U.S. looks at Georgia has a balance of power in the Caucasus region and a big nasty thorn in Putin's new Russian (nationalism's) side.
35 Analog : Sure, but I was talking about "capability," which can mean a lot of things, but usually doesn't refer to the capability to burn fuel, occupy tarmac (
36 Beaucaire : Russia just opened a second front-line by positioning part of it's Black Sea fleet in front of Abkhazia ports,and carry an estimated 6000 land-troops
37 Mig21UMD : Never say never. We (humans) always fall into a sense of naivety/comfort during times of peace but fail to realise how close nations come to war ever
38 Par13del : Never happen for a number of reasons: 1. Demonstrations in the EU on US aggression - Remember Kosovo, the US campaign started without UN approval, th
39 RayChuang : I think the Georgians will surrender within four days for a number of obvious reasons: 1) The Georgians don't have enough weapons to hold out. 2) A LO
40 LY744 : It goes back to a little earlier, when the Russians blatantly backed the brutal and pointless 'liberation' of Abkhazia in 92-93... Just like the F-11
41 Post contains links Highlander0 : Georgia "pulls out" of S. Ossetia Thought that might be of some interest.
42 A342 : Baku is in Azerbaijan...
43 LY744 : The Russians have been spreading some sexy stories about foreign guns for hire doing Georgia's fighting: - an African American U.S. citizen sapper was
44 GDB : Par13del, NATO aircraft have already provided CAP's for some of the smaller former WarPac states/ex Soviet Republics. US, UK, Dutch, Danish, Norwegian
45 A342 : Most Su-25s were actually built in Tbilisi. Now there are reports that Russia has attacked the factory. IF Su-25s were used in this mission, that wou
46 Post contains links StasisLAX : The Russians and the Georgian diplomats at the United Nations are now accusing each other of waging genocide, and the Russians are claiming that the U
47 HanginOut : I posted this in the other thread, concerning TBS being attacked and you may find it of interest. Interestingly, Finnish Foreign Minister Stubb (in hi
48 Post contains links StasisLAX : Additional news on Russian bombing activities in Georgia. Account to an article in the Daily Mail, Russia has succeeded in ‘completely devastating
49 Par13del : I'm not a politician, but for arguments sake, lets say that you are correct, now what? Getting past all the rhetoric at the UN, someplace, somewhere,
50 Sv7887 : Georgia over-reached and now Comrade Putin is teaching them a lesson. Anyone stupid enough to believe Russia wouldn't fight is asking for it. Politic
51 LY744 : Russia is like one airstrike away from being the worst peace keeper in the history of the world. LY744.
52 LY744 : Updates: 1. Situation on the ground: - Russia has amassed something of a makeshift infantry division on the ground in S.Ossetia, composed mostly of ba
53 Post contains links and images StasisLAX : Eastern Europe wishes that Vladimir Putin and the Russian Bear would just go back to sleep - many of these nations are rightfully terrified of Russia
54 STT757 : I know this would be a huge escalation, but I feel the US should send a Patriot Missile battery to TBILISI and set up Combat air patrols over Georgian
55 Sv7887 : It's not that I disagree with you, but they will send a S-300 battery to Tehran and possibly give them even more to kill US Soldiers in Iraq..It woul
56 NBGSkyGod : I don't think the conflict will see any direct US combat involvement. Our response will be filtered through NATO and the EU in the form of humanitaria
57 Wvsuperhornet : I think your reading too much into it, it seems like to me that both the Russian and Georgian Presidents which are fairly new are trying to make a po
58 StasisLAX : Thinking along those lines - would Russia support and assist militarily with the formation of the Republic of Kurdistan in northern Iraq and eastern
59 Bennett123 : This sounds like a re run of the domino theory.
60 Mig21UMD : Russian original plan in the 80's was for an invasion of Iran after Afghanistan. Anyway, just a thought – As an ex KQB agent and what looks like an
61 Mig21UMD : Or is it KBG?
62 Atmx2000 : Aren't they going to do that anyway?
63 Bennett123 : As an ex KQB agent and what looks like an ultra nationalist, I wonder if Putin would like to see the old USSR back so much that at any opportunity he
64 LY744 : The U.S. has already done more than I expected them to, by supplying airlift to get some of those Georgians home from Iraq. All in all, seems like a p
65 StasisLAX : Komityet Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosty (KGB) or the Committee for State Security - better known as Comrade Putin's playhouse.
66 11Bravo : Actually most of this thread sounds more like the typical misinformed teenage anetter taking themselves way too seriously and engaging in far-fetched
67 Pelican : like Germany... The Kremlin won't even think of attacing Turkey. That would lead to a state of defence according to article 5 of the NATO treaty lead
68 StasisLAX : Comrade Putin apparently wins this battle by occupying a large portion of Georgia, but he also ushers in the 21st century Cold War - a war that will
69 Post contains links STT757 : The US is using military cargo planes (C-17s) and Naval warships to bring "humanitarian relief" to Georgia. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_
70 Pyrex : Actually, CAS is something the Russians have always been very good at, since the Shturmovik (unlike the U.S., which seems to always be trying to find
71 SIBILLE : Any idea about possible air to air kills? Or only aircrafts shot down by AAA or SAM?
72 Post contains links Beaucaire : This one was a great example of Western Peace-keepers extraordinary efficiency.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op%C3%A9ration_Turquoise
73 LY744 : Russian journalists have suggested that at least one of the Su-25's the Georgians lost was shot down from the air. What they are basing this on is un
74 Wvsuperhornet : And risk going up against a well trained Turkish Army and a Battle hardened US Military I doubt mr Putin is that Stupid (although he is a politician)
75 LY744 : ...which are like most of the country. But the Russians wouldn't have much support there. Now, if there was a, um, genocide to take place in Crimea a
76 F27Friendship : Thank you Bravo for that comment. Why on Earth would they want to get to Turkey?! I am very worried about this, and even more about what comes next,
77 Post contains links StasisLAX : And the new Russian-American "Cold War" moves into manned space flight and seriously threatens continued ISS operations. According to an article publi
78 Wvsuperhornet : And I totally agree!!! While I am a fan of space exploration the only way to Hurt the Russians right now for us, is in the Wallets. While I am not to
79 MCIGuy : A good case for 1000 F-22s?
80 LY744 : More updates: - Russian forces don't seem to be in any hurry to leave the Georgian towns of Poti, Senaki, and Gori, despite the signed ceasefire agree
81 Post contains links StasisLAX : The Russian military is continuing military ops within Georgia, even as U.S. Secretary of State Rice is meeting with the Georgian government in Tbilis
82 LY744 : Or they could just throw money at whatever opposition Saakashvili has in Georgia, and achieve regime change through elections. Democracy at work. At
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