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MiG-29/Su-27 Aerodynamic Question  
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9390 times:

The MiG-29 and Su-27, like the F-14 have a wide spacing between the engines forming a lifting-surface known as a tunnel (or in the F-14's case, a pancake) which adds additional lifting area to the plane over just that of the wings.

How much extra lifting-area does the MiG-29 and Su-27's tunnels add in addition to the lifting area of the wings?


BTW: As an interesting note, the F-14's tunnel/pancake adds 443 extra square feet of wing-area (which is actually greater than the entire wing-area of the F-100, or F-8) which is almost that of the wings themselves, at 565 square-feet, which equate to a total lifting area of 1,008 square feet!


Blackbird

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSovietjet From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2003, 2648 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9379 times:

Blackbird, you're killing us with these detailed technical questions  Smile . I will try to find out for you but it's a rather challenging task.

User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9270 times:

Sovietjet,

Quote:
Blackbird, you're killing us with these detailed technical questions  Smile . I will try to find out for you but it's a rather challenging task.

Thank you for your assistance -- My apologies, by the way, about all the questions (especially with the rapid frequency in which I've asked them).


Blackbird


User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6539 posts, RR: 54
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8976 times:

Dear Blackbird, wingspan is a much more efficient lift generator than area.

The reason for the quite widely spaced engines is to make room for a lot of internal fuel near the center of gravity of the plane. At a place which is already seriously obstructed by the landing gear wells.

The area between the engines does produce lift at high angle of attack. But not nearly as efficiently per square foot as the wing.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineLoran From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 554 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8661 times:

AFAIK this is also a safety feature in case of engine fire, particularly important for naval aircraft.

Loran



703 717 727 732-9 747 757 767 777 787 AB2/6 310 318-321 330 340 380 D8M D91/3/5 D1C M11 M81-90 L10 IL8/6/7/W/9/4 TU3/5/2
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6965 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8305 times:



Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 3):
The area between the engines does produce lift at high angle of attack. But not nearly as efficiently per square foot as the wing.

Let's not forget that it adds drag too to have a large surface area between the engines...

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 8285 times:

Prebennorholm,

Quote:
Dear Blackbird, wingspan is a much more efficient lift generator than area.

The reason for the quite widely spaced engines is to make room for a lot of internal fuel near the center of gravity of the plane. At a place which is already seriously obstructed by the landing gear wells.

The area between the engines does produce lift at high angle of attack. But not nearly as efficiently per square foot as the wing.

I just wanted to know for statistical purposes what the area of the pancake/tunnel area was. As I said, I know what the pancake/tunnel area is for the F-14 (443 square feet) -- I, however, do not know the surface area of the MiG-29 and Su-27's tunnel/pancake


Blackbird

[Edited 2008-10-04 13:52:32]

User currently offlineFerrypilot From New Zealand, joined Sep 2006, 897 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7918 times:



Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 1):
Blackbird, you're killing us with these detailed technical questions Smile . I will try to find out for you but it's a rather challenging task.

...Can't refuse a lady eh!  Smile


User currently offlineJackonicko From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2008, 472 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7865 times:

Don't make the mistake of assuming that 1m2 between the engines gives the same lift as 1m2 on the wing area.

Back in 1988, when the MiG-29 made its Farnborough debut, Valery Menitsky estimated that the tunnel added "somewhere between 10 and 20%" to overall lift."

As MiG's then Chief Test Pilot, I believed him!


User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 4005 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7842 times:



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 6):
I just wanted to know for statistical purposes what the area of the pancake/tunnel area was. As I said, I know what the pancake/tunnel area is for the F-14 (443 square feet) -- I, however, do not know the surface area of the MiG-29 and Su-27's tunnel/pancake

Yesterday you think Russia is going to launch a Tu-160 attack against the US from Venezuela, and today you think it is such an open society that the exact dimensions of the bottom parts of the MiG-29 and Su-27 are public information?

You ought to travel a bit.

Peter Smile



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineJohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 956 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7836 times:



Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 9):
Yesterday you think Russia is going to launch a Tu-160 attack against the US from Venezuela, and today you think it is such an open society that the exact dimensions of the bottom parts of the MiG-29 and Su-27 are public information?

I don't understand how some people on this forum can be so interested in military aircarft while at the same time be so anti-military. This hardware was NOT produced to look cool or entertain you but to further its country's aims and goals and (get this) kill people and fight wars...


User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 4005 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7833 times:



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 10):

And how does this relate to what I said?



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineJohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 956 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7825 times:



Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 11):
And how does this relate to what I said?

I was agreeing with you that some members are living in their own little, happy world.


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7758 times:

Johns624,

I know exactly what the purpose of a military aircraft is designed for -- shoot down opposing countries planes, and bomb the living snot out of a variety of ground targets (which can include boats, and ships).


Blackbird


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