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Leased Casas For A400 Delay  
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5077 times:

Because of the delay of the A400M EADS has offered Casa aircraft for lease to France, Spain and the United Kingdom.
However there are differences between Germany and EADS because Germany does not want the third tranche of Eurofighters and EADS demands payment while on the contrary Germany demands payment for the delay of the A400M.

Link in German
http://www.aero.de/EADS_vermietet_Tr...flugzeuge_an_A400M-Kunden_7330.htm


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7701 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4964 times:

What type of aircraft is CASA proposing to supply?.

User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4933 times:

I guess it would be the C295.


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7701 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4912 times:

Surely the C295 is somewhat smaller than the A400M?. It carries about 8T compared to 32T on the A400M.

User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4791 times:



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 3):
Surely the C295 is somewhat smaller than the A400M?. It carries about 8T compared to 32T on the A400M.

The Casa is not meant to fill the gap until the A400 arrives but it can be used to spare some C160s or older C130s in the UK.
Use the C295 instead of a Transall and use the Transall for flights that would be done with the A400 instead.

France already bought a couple of C295s a few years ago in order to safe some Transalls and Turkey also has C295s in their fleet.

I hope Germany -despite the differences with EADS will do this, too.
The Transalls are really old and need replacements as soon as possible.
New transport aircraft and helicopters are the most important need for the German military in my opinion. Currently we rely on 40 years old Transall and Bell UH 1 that were bought in a cold war scenario and were meant for domestic use or some short European flights.

Now the Transalls fly to the training bases in the US, to the Kosovo, Afganistan and if needed all over the world for relief flights.

I would prefer some C17s or C130Js instead of the CASAs but that won´t happen.
So if there is a chance to get the Transalls some rest do it.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4881 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4767 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 4):
I would prefer some C17s or C130Js instead of the CASAs but that won´t happen.
So if there is a chance to get the Transalls some rest do it.

Since Germany seems at odds with EADS, maybe this could be a viable stopgap compromise as it offers improved capability over the Transall?.....

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"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4724 times:

I'd love to see someone try a transatlantic deployment with a horde of Casa 212's!


The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4674 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 4):
I would prefer some C17s or C130Js instead of the CASAs but that won´t happen.

Well, if they started a rush order for C-17s, the Luftwaffe could have the in a few months, like Canada and Austrailia did. An airplane already in production for the USAF could be sold to Germany, then simply add another USAF order at the end of the line.


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7385 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4639 times:



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 5):
Since Germany seems at odds with EADS

Is not Germany a board member of EADS???? A disagreement on a particular a/c is one thing, being at odds with yourself?

If it is about numbers, they can be played with.
1. A need was identified to replace the Transalls, air frame hours was one factor.
2. Request issued for replacement, enter the A400M
3. A400m is delayed, rework the figures originally provided to justify the replacement.

In the world of high finance, we can be sure that a more in depth analysis of the Transalls will find that they are good for another 5-10% increase in air frame hours than was previously stated, this will cover the time lost with the A400M delivery, the other requirements can easily be delayed, range, increase payload, etc. etc. Those missions are probably contracted, so what are you loosing other than the continuation of what is presently being done.

Also, this method is a lot cheaper than buying new a/c which will be sold once the A400M arrives. The A400M is coming, it is only a question of when.


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4881 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4628 times:



Quoting Par13del (Reply 8):
Is not Germany a board member of EADS???? A disagreement on a particular a/c is one thing, being at odds with yourself?

Germany is not EADS. It's just "supporting" the company, and doing so gives it the right to question things. Obviously, there will be those within the Government who would be either for or against how a certain program is run.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 8):
Also, this method is a lot cheaper than buying new a/c which will be sold once the A400M arrives. The A400M is coming, it is only a question of when.

Perhaps a Smiley should've been added to my "Spartan" post as I was ribbing Columba about the C295s - which if accepted would've been less than a "slap on EADS' wrist" so to speak. Reply 129 in the other thread would show I generally concur with what you say about the A400M.....

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/military/read.main/88569/#129

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 129):
Somehow I don't see them wanting the billion Euros they have sunk into the program go down the drain, jeopardize local jobs and further delay deliveries of their much anticipated for airlifters.




"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4614 times:



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 9):

Perhaps a Smiley should've been added to my "Spartan" post as I was ribbing Columba about the C295s - which if accepted would've been less than a "slap on EADS' wrist" so to speak. Reply 129 in the other thread would show I generally concur with what you say about the A400M.....

A slap on EADS would be the C130J or C17. The Spartan and the C295 are only half capable of what the C130 and C160 can carry. The idea behind the C295 that it could take away some flying hours of the C160 but it is no replacement.
The C295 is the only military cargo plane offered by EADS and the only aircraft that EADS could offer but in fact it is offering like a Freightliner "Sprinter" to somebody how needs a overland truck.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12742 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4485 times:



Quoting Par13del (Reply 8):
Is not Germany a board member of EADS???? A disagreement on a particular a/c is one thing, being at odds with yourself?

Yes, along with France and Spain. And it apparently has been the French contingent that insisted on a European engine, which is the root cause of the delay. It seems the French are extremely EU-centric, and have to keep reminding their German collegues to stay on-board the grand EU experiment.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineR2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2688 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4373 times:

Such an offer could actually make sense for countries that are already operators of the type, such as Spain and France. Maybe they could try to get the airplanes as compensation payment, rather than money. Just like it is rumored that Airbus is offering very cheap aircraft as compensation for A380 delays. Spain has a lot of old C-212s that will need replacement by CN-235s and/or C-295s sometime soon, they could take advantage of it.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 3):
Surely the C295 is somewhat smaller than the A400M?. It carries about 8T compared to 32T on the A400M.

The C295s would not replace the A400M but the old C160s, by taking over some of their missions and thereby reducing the hours they fly, so that their life can be extended up until A400M EIS.

Quoting Columba (Reply 10):

The C295 is the only military cargo plane offered by EADS and the only aircraft that EADS could offer

No, there is also its little brother the CN-235, as well as the their predecessor the C-212. But these would be too small for the task.


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4689 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4367 times:



Quoting Revelation (Reply 11):
and have to keep reminding their German collegues to stay on-board the grand EU experiment.

Nobody has to help us recognize the benefits, we're smart enough.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3513 times:

The German Luftwaffe demands compensation for the delays how are the chances that we will see this compensation in CASA cargo aircraft ?
I see the huge need to put flying hours and cycles off the Transalls, while the C295 is not optimal (I would vote for the C130J or C17 as an interim solution until the A400M arrives) it is the only aircraft EADS has to offer.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3333 times:



Quoting Par13del (Reply 8):
In the world of high finance, we can be sure that a more in depth analysis of the Transalls will find that they are good for another 5-10% increase in air frame hours than was previously stated, this will cover the time lost with the A400M delivery, the other requirements can easily be delayed, range, increase payload, etc. etc. Those missions are probably contracted, so what are you loosing other than the continuation of what is presently being done.

While I agree there is most likely 5%-10% of life still in the C-160s, it is still flying/using the aircraft close to the safety margins of individual airplane structual lives. Are you willing, and are those missions important enough to risk all that?

Remember a few years ago, a former USAF C-130A, being used for firefighting in California by a private comapny had both wings snap off during a fire retardent drop? That is a good reason why you are very careful when using aircraft at or near the structual end of their useful lives.

Quoting Columba (Reply 14):
I see the huge need to put flying hours and cycles off the Transalls, while the C295 is not optimal (I would vote for the C130J or C17 as an interim solution until the A400M arrives) it is the only aircraft EADS has to offer.

Wouldn't the real question be, which interim aircraft can you put into service first, the C-17A, C-130J, or C-295J? I think that will really answer your question. The next question is, if the C-17A or C-130J can be gotten fairly quickly, and it eventually fills the roles you really need, do you then cancel the A-400M order and keep the new selection?


User currently offlineTancrede From Finland, joined May 2006, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3267 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 15):
The next question is, if the C-17A or C-130J can be gotten fairly quickly, and it eventually fills the roles you really need, do you then cancel the A-400M order and keep the new selection?

Stop dreaming. That is a political question, and it has already been settled in favour of the A-400M.

[Edited 2008-12-06 08:21:09]

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3138 times:



Quoting Tancrede (Reply 16):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 15):
The next question is, if the C-17A or C-130J can be gotten fairly quickly, and it eventually fills the roles you really need, do you then cancel the A-400M order and keep the new selection?

Stop dreaming. That is a political question, and it has already been settled in favour of the A-400M.

While I agree with you, it is a political question, we also know politicians decisions are almost never based on military needs or reality.

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