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Usaf Vs IAF At Red Flag/War-Games  
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 18462 times:

How badly did the United States Air Force get beaten by the Israeli Air Force during Red-Flag Excercizes or War-Games exercizes (ones that are not classified)?


Blackbird

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 18467 times:



Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
How badly did the United States Air Force get beaten by the Israeli Air Force during Red-Flag Excercizes or War-Games exercizes (ones that are not classified)?

These games are political theater and I doubt the USAF was bringing it's full suite of capabilities to brunt. They had similar games with India a few years ago and the Air Force made a big thing about how great the Indian pilots were and how poorly the US did. Never mind they were using F-16s and probably ordered their pilots to tank the exercise.

It was a ploy for funding. The USAF pilot training is second to none. Then add in the F-22, AWACS, Drones,J-Stars. and Electronic intel and you have quite the force. It isn't just the individual pilot or even plane but the whole suite of combat systems that are put into play.

Israel has the Phalcon (Their own version of the AWACS) and a battle tested Airforce of some good F-15's and F-16's but it's hardly a fair comparison.


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4810 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 18442 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 1):
They had similar games with India a few years ago and the Air Force made a big thing about how great the Indian pilots were and how poorly the US did. Never mind they were using F-16s and probably ordered their pilots to tank the exercise.

They had one this year, and India Defence reported their Flankers were handicapped.....

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3988

Exercise Red Flags: Indian Air Force Su 30 MKI Fighters Operated with Handicaps

Dated 24/8/2008



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 18372 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 1):
These games are political theater and I doubt the USAF was bringing it's full suite of capabilities to brunt. They had similar games with India a few years ago and the Air Force made a big thing about how great the Indian pilots were and how poorly the US did. Never mind they were using F-16s and probably ordered their pilots to tank the exercise.

Yes, they could never get owned by better aggresive pilots / aircraft / tactics, that 's simply impossible. And if so : not.

I knew a former IAF (A4) pilot once that told me there are internal competitions in the squadrons & every yr the 1 or 2 pilots with the lowest scores are replaced. It caused contineous stress / competition among the pilots. Very respected pilots (even aces) fell off.


User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1099 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 18339 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
Yes, they could never get owned by better aggresive pilots / aircraft / tactics, that 's simply impossible.

Hehe, my thought.

How on earth could anybody else on the planet be a better fighter pilot than his US counterpart.
Arrogance like that helped lose wars a lot in history.

The better equipment might get the edge for the US though, I firmly believe.

But that didn't help the far superior german tanks in the 2nd WW against a 36-times superiority in numbers brought to the battlefield by US Shermans.

Maybe the Chinese at some day will bring their "Shermans" in sheer numbers in the air...who knows.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 18301 times:



Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 4):
But that didn't help the far superior german tanks in the 2nd WW against a 36-times superiority in numbers brought to the battlefield by US Shermans.

Tsk tsk, the Ronsons won by sheer determination and force of goodness.  duck  While the Tiger and KT were superior, the poor performance of theoretically superior items like the Elefant (high kill rate but poor reliability and mobility) and the non appearance of the Maus do give one pause for thought about what is actually going to be the better performing as opposed to theoretically superior in terms of equipment.


User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18294 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
Yes, they could never get owned by better aggresive pilots / aircraft / tactics, that 's simply impossible. And if so : not.

Appreciate the sarcasm. Can you name the last modern conflict where US airpower was "Owned" by anyone in air to air combat? In the beginning the Vietnam war they had their issues, but if I recall my history those odds significantly improved by the end of the war. The Americans aren't exactly slouches and their record speaks for itself. Until someone comes along and beats them they still hold the crown in Air to Air.

Factoring in Russian SAMs is another story, but we're talking Air to Air. Blackbird was specifically referring to the exercises, and I pointed out that they usually have a political dimension to them as was the case in the US-Indian air exercises. Even with "Friendly" countries do you think either side is going to showcase their very best capabilities? Maybe the US and Britain do considering their very close ties, but is likely the exception to the rule.

The F-15 has never lost an air to air engagement and until recently that was the prime USAF's air superiority fighter. So I don't see any "ownage" there....

You say there are better pilots, but you don't give any examples, you say there are better aircraft, yet nothing so far has equaled the F-22. You speak of tactics, yet nothing has been successfully deployed against the F-15 thus far.

I've had the pleasure of meeting many Air Force pilots and their training is nothing to sneeze at either. They just don't let anyone fly a $40 Million jet or in the case of an F-22 a $150 million + jet.

If you consider the original example, the Israeli Air Force F-15's going against the USAF F-22 and F-15s. Both have AWACS Support, though the Phalcon isn't quite as good as the E-3.

The F-22's definitely have the advantage. The F-15s? now that would be an interesting fight.

If you're thinking Russian:

Then factor in AWACS. What good is a SU-35 if an AWACS can see it long before they can even attack an F-22? Then there is the F-22's datalink capabilities, stealth, and BVR ability. Not exactly an easy kill.

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 4):
The better equipment might get the edge for the US though, I firmly believe.

But that didn't help the far superior german tanks in the 2nd WW against a 36-times superiority in numbers brought to the battlefield by US Shermans.

Now this is a valid point. I read somewhere the Chinese are building 10 aircraft for every F-22 the US builds.


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4763 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18292 times:
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Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 2):
They had one this year, and India Defence reported their Flankers were handicapped.....

when the IAF flankers went to the UK a year or two ago, same thing, radars were not used for BVR


User currently offlineAlien From Romania, joined Oct 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 18262 times:



Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 4):
How on earth could anybody else on the planet be a better fighter pilot than his US counterpart.
Arrogance like that helped lose wars a lot in history.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
Yes, they could never get owned by better aggresive pilots / aircraft / tactics, that 's simply impossible

Where did he say any of this? All he said was that exercises are just that, exercises. they are scripted events used to train personnel in the use of the desired tactics and techniques being taught that day. Red forces usually SIMULATE the tactics and capabilities of a potential adversary. So what he was clumsily trying to say is that only an idiot would take ANY exercise results and try and extrapolate from those results who is the better airman. I know it's just common sense but it seems that quality seems to be sorely lacking on your side of the Atlantic lately.

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 4):
Maybe the Chinese at some day will bring their "Shermans" in sheer numbers in the air...who knows.

I bet you would like that wouldn't you. I think it may be fun to watch the Chinese run things. Kind of like how the Russians dictate terms to the Germans because they can cut off your natural gas supply in an instant. Nothing like exchanging the devil you don't know for one you do.


User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 911 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 18194 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 6):
Now this is a valid point. I read somewhere the Chinese are building 10 aircraft for every F-22 the US builds.

Yeah, I read that somewhere too. And that is why the F-22 needs F-15, and F-16s to back it up. The F-22 may be all high and mighty, but when a flight of say... 6 F-22s get swarmed by 60 J-10s or SU-35s, things will change. Even if the F-22s expend all their rockets, there is still going to be alot of opponents left.

The US counts on opponents playing fair, that will not happen. China knows it would not win with conventional tactics, so they will invent new tricks that will work against the F-22 and the USAF network.


Red Flag is a glorified airshow. It is not all out war games to see who is better, there is a script, and everyone plays their part. The USAF F-15s and F-16s on thier own would be a match for anyone on the planet, add the F-22, F-35, and all the other goodies and the balance changes very quickly.


User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 18190 times:



Quoting Oroka (Reply 9):
Yeah, I read that somewhere too. And that is why the F-22 needs F-15, and F-16s to back it up. The F-22 may be all high and mighty, but when a flight of say... 6 F-22s get swarmed by 60 J-10s or SU-35s, things will change. Even if the F-22s expend all their rockets, there is still going to be alot of opponents left.

I completely agree! Given the fiscal restraints on the USAF they seriously need to think about maintaining and perhaps ordering new build F-15s to back up the F-22s. I'm all for new tech, but what's the point if you can only afford 189 of them? From what I hear the new build F-15s with the latest tech (The Singapore version?) is pretty bad ass in its own right. The Eagle is still a formidable airplane and I can imagine Boeing would give the USAF a sweetheart deal to replace the F-15C

This is my problem with the USAF weapons procurement program. How can you replace 700 or so F-15s with 189 F-22s?

Stealth and all the belts are whistles are great, but quantity does matter. If we reduce ourselves to a boutique military with high tech but limited numbers what does that do for power projection?


User currently offlineJohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 922 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 18143 times:



Quoting Oroka (Reply 9):
The US counts on opponents playing fair

Not that I am aware of. It's war, not a football game.


User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 18115 times:



Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 4):
But that didn't help the far superior german tanks in the 2nd WW against a 36-times superiority in numbers brought to the battlefield by US Shermans.

Maybe the Chinese at some day will bring their "Shermans" in sheer numbers in the air...who knows.

Isn't that what the RAND-report suggested?  Smile

As many above stated, stealth and gadgets are really nice but what happens when you're out of AAM's and the Su's just keep on coming. I think this at least applicable when fighting away on Chinese turf. At home, SAM's and stuff would change the conditions.


User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 911 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 17925 times:



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 11):
Not that I am aware of. It's war, not a football game.

So what good is a high stealth plane if the Chinese stay in the weeds? A big shiny target, that is what. Yeah, radar might not be all that good, but thermal will work to a certain extent, and you can always use optical solutions. If I were an American opponent, I would be developing cheap alternative detection systems and giving it to every other chinese villager with a radio to call in sightings. Stealth defeats radar, so just revert to pre-radar tactics.

I think they F-22 is frigging awesome, but as the allies (including us Canuckastanians) have learned, conventional war tactics don't work. The Taliban, and alQueda seem to be having more success with unconventional tactics than they would have had by giving their fighters tanks and guns and putting them all in one place.

The US and her allies have the 'conventional' war thing pretty well mastered, and no self respecting force would face all that power on a level playing field.

The F-22 is a conventional weapon and will be no help in a guerilla war. You have to admit, the Korean war was not won and was called as a stalemate. Vietnam was another guerilla war, and that was lost. Look how well the first Gulf War went for Iraq... epic FAIL. How about the second time around... FAIL. Some president even declaired the war was over... but when the 'unconventional' crap hit the fan... all that tech got you what? 4000+ dead servicemen and women.

whooooooo.....

[/rant]

GO LEAFS GO!  Wink


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17877 times:



Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
How badly did the United States Air Force get beaten by the Israeli Air Force during Red-Flag Excercizes or War-Games exercizes (ones that are not classified)?

These excercises are not meant to be country a vs country b. In them there are mixing of units from all countries involved.


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 17822 times:

Keesje,

Quote:
I knew a former IAF (A4) pilot once that told me there are internal competitions in the squadrons & every yr the 1 or 2 pilots with the lowest scores are replaced. It caused contineous stress / competition among the pilots. Very respected pilots (even aces) fell off.

When you say replaced, you mean like stripped of their wings and everything?


Blackbird


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 17747 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 6):
You say there are better pilots, but you don't give any examples, you say there are better aircraft, yet nothing so far has equaled the F-22. You speak of tactics, yet nothing has been successfully deployed against the F-15 thus far.

Mostly when a rooky meets an experienced smart opponent he gets owned, regardless of flags.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 6):
Can you name the last modern conflict where US airpower was "Owned" by anyone in air to air combat?

Can you name me 1 serious A to A conflict during the last 30 yrs? Untrained, fleeing, defective, grosly out numbered opponents apart..

Check the report on the bottom of this page. In any war truth is the first victim. On recent wars didn't get the truth either, deep down we knew didn't we..

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...ownload-infamous-rand-air-pow.html


User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 17741 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 16):
Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 6):
You say there are better pilots, but you don't give any examples, you say there are better aircraft, yet nothing so far has equaled the F-22. You speak of tactics, yet nothing has been successfully deployed against the F-15 thus far.

Mostly when a rooky meets an experienced smart opponent he gets owned, regardless of flags.

What's your point? You think F-22 and F-15 USAF pilots are Rookies??

Quoting Keesje (Reply 16):
Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 6):
Can you name the last modern conflict where US airpower was "Owned" by anyone in air to air combat?

Can you name me 1 serious A to A conflict during the last 30 yrs?

Again you're the one maintaining that the US is beatable. I asked you if there exists a situation where the US has been beaten badly in an A2A engagement. The only major engagement was in Vietnam.

That Rand report highlighted a potential conflict between the US and China. They seem to ignore US SAM capability from Aegis ships, a US pounding of Chinese bases from Cruise Missiles, and the presence of attack submarines in the region.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 17736 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 17):
Again you're the one maintaining that the US is beatable. I asked you if there exists a situation where the US has been beaten badly in an A2A engagement.

I can´t. And can can´t name one where the US won either. There haven´t been any.

And yes the US is beatable. Sorry if I hurt your feelings Vietnam, Jemen, Beirut were not won to say it mildly despite superior weapons. The war on terrorist has not been won either, some people feel more scared then ever.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 17):
That Rand report highlighted a potential conflict between the US and China. They seem to ignore US SAM capability from Aegis ships, a US pounding of Chinese bases from Cruise Missiles, and the presence of attack submarines in the region.

It was not pointing at the China situation. Attacking a country with a nucliar arsenal will always be avoided. The report places interesting sidelines on he proclaimed past successes you feel you can be proud of) as your could have read.

Btw I feel I cannot be proud on past achievements of fellow countryman I never met - knew without taking responsibility for bad things others did.


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7149 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 17722 times:

The US Air Force wanted to get rid of its agressor squadrons and its version of top gun air to air training a couple years ago, even the Navy was supposed to get involved with this, did they carry through with these plans? I know Red Flag and Top Gun still exist, but the pressure was building, I believe the powers that be are still into missile tech being the end all and air to air combat is a thing of the past, same thinking said guns were no longer needed.

The Red Flag excersize now appears to be more about teaching / showing how co-ordination on the battle field works, rather than pitting dissimilar a/c against each other, during the cold war it was about learing the strengths of your a/c and how to avoid its weakness, there really never was true competition against a/c, except un-oofficially by "hot head" pilots.


User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 17669 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 18):
I can´t. And can can´t name one where the US won either. There haven´t been any.

And yes the US is beatable. Sorry if I hurt your feelings Vietnam, Jemen, Beirut were not won to say it mildly despite superior weapons. The war on terrorist has not been won either, some people feel more scared then ever.

We were talking in the context of Air to Air combat. The Vietnam campaign was a political failure, you'll see the US forces there fought courageously. Yemen and Beirut were terrorist attacks.

The day someone succeeds in shooting down F-22s in a Air to Air engagement I'll admit US Airpower is beatable. To date that hasn't happened, though we'll find out sooner or later I'm sure.

The War on Terror has been strife with misteps and idiocy on the Bush administrations part. There is also a political element that no F-22 can fix.

I noted the F-86 vs MiG 15 slides in the back.From what I gathered it said that the MiGs were damaged but destroyed. It also mentioned some of the problems with the missiles the US used.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 18):
Btw I feel I cannot be proud on past achievements of fellow countryman I never met - knew without taking responsibility for bad things others did.

Its perspective. A few of my friends are in the military. So I take pride in their service. My father worked for the USAF so I spent a lot of time surrounded by military environments, hence my love for aircraft.


User currently offlineJonasJ From Sweden, joined Aug 2005, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 17585 times:

For each generation of fighter planes, lesser and lesser planes have been built. I dont see why the fifth generation would be any different. Also, Im not seeing any boom in Su-35 or J-10 factories. In fact, F-22 are being produced in larger numbers than both Su-35 and J-10 together. So to speak of 60 vs 6 F-22 isnt really viable IMO.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 16):
Can you name me 1 serious A to A conflict during the last 30 yrs? Untrained, fleeing, defective, grosly out numbered opponents apart..

Desert Storm. Granted the Iraqi pilots were outnumbered overall, but in the actual engagements, ratios were usually even (2v2, 4v4 etc).

But the fact is, many of the Iraqi pilots had alot of combat experience from the Iran-Iraq war, while most USAF had none. The MiG-29 has excellent performance, especially in CAC. As I stated earlier, ratios in each engagements was usually equal. Despite this, US didn't loose a single aircraft in the air-to-air arena.



JonasJ
User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1099 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 17363 times:



Quoting Alien (Reply 8):
I bet you would like that wouldn't you.

Hmm, you are taking arguments as the US did when it came to the "coalition of the willing".
If you are not with us, you are against us?
Sorry pal, no thats not the way.

Just because I don't support the US with anything I write I do by no means wish anything bad for the ally I was once so proud of for many many years!!
The military skill, the technological know-how, the true friend of Germany and the defender of the free world which I was so proud of?
Not anymore, unfortunately.

Quoting Alien (Reply 8):
I think it may be fun to watch the Chinese run things.

The US is good, the China bad?

Quoting Alien (Reply 8):
Kind of like how the Russians dictate terms to the Germans because they can cut off your natural gas supply in an instant

Oh really?  Wink
So the Russians aren't dependend to the same amount by needing german heavy machinery, heavy industry products, ...?

So again, why did the US attack without any reason the Iraq? Was it oil, by any chance?

Quoting Alien (Reply 8):
Nothing like exchanging the devil you don't know for one you do.

Many thought they know the US before they invaded Iraq, reasoned by lies all over.


Please please stop this hipocrisy, Alien, and accept I mentioned a valid argument, not because its anti-US but because its true and confirmed by other posters.


User currently offlineAlien From Romania, joined Oct 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 17262 times:



Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 22):
Just because I don't support the US with anything I write I do by no means wish anything bad for the ally I was once so proud of for many many years!!

And just how old are you? I bet you don't even remember the time when West Germany was an active partner in NATO and had an armed force with some teeth. I bet you don't remember the days when the Soviets divided your capital with a wall. It is shame that all the effort was put in to keeping Germany free just to watch it sink the level of laptog of Russia.

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 22):
Not anymore, unfortunately.

Yes, I guess Germany has changed.

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 22):
Oh really? Wink
So the Russians aren't dependend to the same amount by needing german heavy machinery, heavy industry products,

All things they can get elsewhere. What will Germany do if the Russians turn off your gas this winter? If I where you I would stock up on blankets because Germany has chosen to become dependent on Russia for the vast majority of it's natural gas. Remember what they did to the Ukraine?

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 22):
So again, why did the US attack without any reason the Iraq? Was it oil, by any chance?

If we wanted to take oil we could just as easily march into Canada or Mexico. If we really wanted to make a statement about oil there is always Venezuela just a stones throw away. No NICCO. If it was about oil it was oil for Europe. In fact other than Saudi Arabia which accounts for about 13% of our imports, we get very little oil from the ME in general and Iraq (about 3%) in particular. In fact we get about the same amount of oil from the Caribbean as we do Iraq. Claiming Iraq was about oil is just pure ignorance. Just look at a map. There are easier places for us to take over oil fields if we wanted to but don't let facts get in the way of your left wing brainwash.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/military/read.main/98046/

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 22):
Please please stop this hipocrisy,

Please stop the stupidity and look at the facts.


User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1099 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 17197 times:



Quoting Alien (Reply 23):
And just how old are you?

1. Its not your achievement that you're older.
2. Being older doesn't qualify you per se for better judgements about the past.

Quoting Alien (Reply 23):
I bet you don't even remember the time when West Germany was an active partner in NATO and had an armed force with some teeth

The younger always can educate themselves on topics they couldn't experience first hand.

Quoting Alien (Reply 23):
I bet you don't remember the days when the Soviets divided your capital with a wall.

Same goes here.
And trying to teach me anything about OUR history is not something Americans are very good at.

Quoting Alien (Reply 23):
It is shame that all the effort was put in to keeping Germany free just to watch it sink the level of laptog of Russia.

While I understand that I cannot challenge or change your opinion on this, repeating it doesn't make it true.

Quoting Alien (Reply 23):
Yes, I guess Germany has changed.

Of course we did. What about you?

Quoting Alien (Reply 23):
All things they can get elsewhere.

You tell me to learn the facts. Then here you are in dire need to do your homework.

Quoting Alien (Reply 23):
What will Germany do if the Russians turn off your gas this winter? If I where you I would stock up on blankets because Germany has chosen to become dependent on Russia for the vast majority of it's natural gas.

They can't and they know that. I told you so but you don't agree. Fair enough. Talking about black and white thinking, eh?

Quoting Alien (Reply 23):
Remember what they did to the Ukraine?

That statement of yours even supports my argument. What does Ukraine bring as counterweight to the table?

Quoting Alien (Reply 23):
Iraq was about oil is just pure ignorance

Yes, true. Utterly my fault. It was about weapons of mass destruction, right?
Sorry, totally forgot the danger the world was living in due to Iraqs force of intercontinental NBC weapons.

Quoting Alien (Reply 23):
left wing

Far from it, actually.

Quoting Alien (Reply 23):
look at the facts

Okay, I admit, you are older, you have a lot more "life experience" for what it may be worth. So take your chance and educate me.

Whats it all about? What about the Russian-German relationship? What about the Ukrainian-Russian in contrast?
What about the reasons for Iraq war?

I would appreciate if you don't just say "its not worth it to educate some german youngster".


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9000 posts, RR: 76
Reply 25, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 17127 times:
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Looking For The Red Flag Accident Video posted Fri Oct 20 2006 21:35:14 by RichardPrice