TGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 273 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10014 times:
Hats off for LM, hope they'll manage to satisfy the Norwegians.
It would be interesting to see what capabilities the Gripen NG didn't meet. Will there be an official statement summarizing requirements vs. capabilities?
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 21 Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9976 times:
Quote: STOCKHOLM -(Dow Jones)- Norway's prime minister's office Thursday said the country has decided to buy Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) planes made by the U.S.' Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT), rather than Saab AB's (SAAB-B.SK) Gripen jet fighter.
It said the JSF planes are the only ones that meet operational standards set by Norway's government for the country's future military air force.
Quote: OSLO, Nov 20 (Reuters) - The Norwegian government said on Thursday that it would pick Lockheed Martin's (LMT.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter over Swedish Saab's (SAABb.ST: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) Gripen to replace its ageing F-16 war planes.
NATO member Norway has said it aims to buy 48 combat jets in a deal that would be the biggest defence investment in Norwegian history, and is estimated to be worth as much as $14 billion over the lifetime of the aircraft.
[Edited 2008-11-20 08:48:46]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
Mortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3230 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9926 times:
The desicion was dropped like a bomb. Neither the Swedish Gripen company, Swedish embassy, American Lockheed Martin or the American embassy had been told beforehand. Everyone had expected the announcment / desicion of aircraft to be on the 19th of December.
It was decided to announce it now because the information was considered stockechange sensitive.
Brendows From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 1020 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9904 times:
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 3): Let's hope that the Norwegian parliement agrees....
The parliament will agree, the only party that may disagree is SV, and if they disagree they will show that their decision is not based on performance/cost.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22064 posts, RR: 51 Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9851 times:
While the JSF is shaping up to be a good aircraft and obviously a major future NATO fighter, the Gripen in my opinon would have privoded the greatest benefits for the Norwegians with the proposed volume participation of Norwegian industry and given Norway the best bang for its money.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Mortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3230 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9832 times:
Lockheed Martin: - We surpass our competitors
USA ( US ambassadeur to Norway ) - Strengthens our relationship
Saab / Sweden: - Very dissepointed
Eurofighter: - Norway is gone from our map*****
Minister of defence Norway: - Even though the Swedish offer was better from an industrial relationship point of view, the conclusion was that the F 35 was clearly better from a defence point of view. The desicion was made after a heavy evaluation of our military defence analysists and checked by two different external evaluators.
The operation capabilities of the planes were set against 4 different threats. 3 domestic and 1 international. Amongs these are: Defence of land area ( Domestic ), defence of sovereignity of the areas of the North ( domestic ), defence of populated areas ( domestic ) and NATO's security of peace operations ( international )
JSF made it through all the 4 operational scenarions, while Gripen NG only managed the international part. JSF was considered best at information gathering, survailance and eliminate targets on ground and sealevel.
There is however questions and doubts regarding wether the US will be able to make and deliver the planes in the end because of the financial crisis. - This is a question that we will have to follow up on with the United States and Lockeed Martin.
( ***** Eurofighter was no longer part of the final competitors. They left the bidding process along time ago due to the fact they felt that the competition was not real )
OyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2577 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9811 times:
Quoting TGIF (Reply 1): It would be interesting to see what capabilities the Gripen NG didn't meet. Will there be an official statement summarizing requirements vs. capabilities?
According to the NRK news, SV would like to delay a decision to make the requirements public.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6): While the JSF is shaping up to be a good aircraft and obviously a major future NATO fighter, the Gripen in my opinon would have privoded the greatest benefits for the Norwegians with the proposed volume participation of Norwegian industry and given Norway the best bang for its money.
The Swedish deal was very attractive, if Gripen is sold in many examples. But Norwegian industries also benefit on the F-35 program.
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 7): There is however questions and doubts regarding wether the US will be able to make and deliver the planes in the end because of the financial crisis. - This is a question that we will have to follow up on with the United States and Lockeed Martin.
I have heard only one self appointed expert saying that the JSF probably won't happen, but I have a hard time believing that. I mean, it is the future combat airplane for the US. That are the chances of the JSF not happpening?
Quoting SASDC8 (Reply 8): It will pass threw parliament with the support of Høyre and FRP without a hitch, no matter what SV says/decides on
Let's hope that you are right in this regard
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
Mortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3230 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9801 times:
Quoting OyKIE (Reply 9): I have heard only one self appointed expert saying that the JSF probably won't happen, but I have a hard time believing that. I mean, it is the future combat airplane for the US. That are the chances of the JSF not happpening?
Yes I am aware of this self appointed expert that you are referring to and I agree with you, he is'nt very trustworthy. However this question has gotten attention in the Norwegian parliement and therefore will proabably be adressed.
SAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 693 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9776 times:
Quoting OyKIE (Reply 9): have heard only one self appointed expert saying that the JSF probably won't happen, but I have a hard time believing that. I mean, it is the future combat airplane for the US. That are the chances of the JSF not happpening?
Well,i have read that the type of F-35 that Norway wants is of no intrest for the US and therfore more expensive for LM to produce,because of the low airframe nr ordered,and therefor in these finacial times would be at risk,not the F-35 program itself,right?
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 7): ***** Eurofighter was no longer part of the final competitors. They left the bidding process along time ago due to the fact they felt that the competition was not real )
I can't blame them, a lot smarter than SAAB,they have my respect!
I'm only halfway through the report so it's to soon to tell if it's useful.
Norwegian is a tricky language... I which I spent more weeks skiing in Trysil as a kid
Quoting OyKIE (Reply 9): I have heard only one self appointed expert saying that the JSF probably won't happen, but I have a hard time believing that. I mean, it is the future combat airplane for the US. That are the chances of the JSF not happpening?
Saying the JSF won't happen is bull IMO. Fewer built planes than first expected is however a possibility...
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 21 Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9728 times:
Quoting OyKIE (Reply 9): The Swedish deal was very attractive, if Gripen is sold in many examples. But Norwegian industries also benefit on the F-35 program.
Quote: Combat aircraft is a crucial capability for Norway's defence," Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg said in a statement on Thursday.
"The Joint Strike Fighter is clearly best at fulfilling the requirements we have set, and in addition (it) is the cheapest plane," Stoltenberg told a news conference.
Norway said the U.S. planes would cost 18 billion Norwegian crowns ($2.54 billion), which it said was 6 billion crowns cheaper than the Gripens. Defence officials said that stealth technology was one feature that put the F-35 ahead of others.
The defence ministry said total costs of owning the Gripen plane over a 30-year lifetime were estimated at 20-30 billion crowns higher than the JSF lifetime costs.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
SAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 693 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9702 times:
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 13): Reuters reports that the F-35 was cheaper
People involved in the program here are very confused where theese figures coming from,they clame the opposit??
And Norways defends analyst,John Berg says that the JSF will cost twice as much as the Gripen??? Future will tell i guess!
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16264 posts, RR: 52 Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9629 times:
Which version of the F-35, the B model would be cool.
SCAT15F From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 402 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9558 times:
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 11): Well,i have read that the type of F-35 that Norway wants is of no intrest for the US and therfore more expensive for LM to produce,because of the low airframe nr ordered
An air defense variant of the F-35A that is lighter, perhaps?
EBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9537 times:
Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 18): Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 11):
Well,i have read that the type of F-35 that Norway wants is of no intrest for the US and therfore more expensive for LM to produce,because of the low airframe nr ordered
An air defense variant of the F-35A that is lighter, perhaps?
What is the source; i.e. where did that information come from? What's the difference between what the Norwegians want and what US armed forces want and will get?
Yes, the F-35 is designed from the outset to be cheaper to maintain than legacy platforms. Smile
It will be cheaper than legacy platforms, i.e. teen series fighters. LM guesstimated the F-35 will be 30% cheaper to operate than the F-16. Thailand says Gripen will be 50% cheaper than the F-16 to operate. Gripens proven track record is however nothing compared to LM's estimations...
As SAS A340 said, the only way to find out is to wait ~10 years since the F-35 isn't operational in Norway yet.
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 17): I'm not sure if this is the real thing or if it's a mock up, but the picture is from Bodø airport in Norway earlier this year.
Mockup. The AA-1 (the only F-35A flying) is to precious to risk crossing the Atlantic with to participate in airshows etc.
Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 18): Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 11):
Well,i have read that the type of F-35 that Norway wants is of no intrest for the US and therfore more expensive for LM to produce,because of the low airframe nr ordered
An air defense variant of the F-35A that is lighter, perhaps?
The only difference I'm aware of is the landing chute for icy runways.
Brendows From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 1020 posts, RR: 4 Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 9464 times:
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 14): And Norways defends analyst,John Berg says that the JSF will cost twice as much as the Gripen?
John Berg was referring to fuel burn (he believed the F-35 would burn twice as much fuel as the Gripen NG,) not life-time cost. I'm actually puzzled that people listen to this guy (John Berg)...
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9419 times:
Good news for LM; bad news for Saab.
I am baffled how LM is going to deliver the frames at a cost of $61 million each from 2014 when the USAF F-35's are budgeted to cost over $90 million each in 2013. I think the US Congress may also be baffled about this when it comes to approving this export deal. How will LM be able to explain charging the US government 50% more per F-35 delivered in 2013 than it proposes charging the Norwegian government for aircraft delivered from 2014?
Mortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3230 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9367 times:
Quoting Art (Reply 22): Norwegian government for aircraft delivered from 2014
The Norwegian ones will start being delivered between 2016 - 2020.
Final cost and number of aircraft is still a matter of negotiation.
It might be that the industrial contracts in Norway are calculated and deducted into the final cost ?? I don't know.
But it's a long way to go.
The Norwegian government hope to get acceptance and approval from parliment to start negotiating final cost and number of aircrafts in December this year.
Final contract for delivery wont be signed before 2014 proabably.
Mortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3230 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9359 times:
In a report the Norwegian airdefence analysists recomends that Norway should buy 56 and not 48 JSF as previously said.
However there will no doubt be serious discussions about how many fighters Norway need. So we'll just have to wait and see.
Personally I'm hoping for 56 or more...
25 Art: My mistake. Thought it was 2014 delivery start. Why so long? By then Norway would have to accept whatever price LM asked for.... unless the price was
26 Mortyman: The Norwegian F 35 will also be able to carrie the Norwegian NSM missile. I seem to recall that Lockheed Martin had to make some adjustments to fit t
27 TGIF: Aha... I was under the impression that the NSM (or JSM) would be offerd to all JSF partners. Thanks for the info!
28 Mortyman: I did'nt say that it would'nt. I only said that the use of NSM with the JSF was an important issue for Norway. I'm sure that the countries that buy J
29 TGIF: OK, I misinterpreted you, sorry about that. I responded to this: I thought the landing chute feature would make Norway’s JSF version unique, or wil
30 Mortyman: I think it was only Norway that added braking parachutes to it's F 16 and I think that is still the case. Anyone who wants a braking parachute install
31 Tancrede: Decision not to be made before 2015 by Finland, for a new fighter to be delivered by 2030.
32 OyKIE: Wouldn't new carbon fiber bakres make a parachute less critical? It seems old fashion to install a parachute on a future airplane! Wow much do you ga
33 TGIF: The main reason, as I've understood it, is ability to stop on icy runways where breaking capacity is limited. Breaking distance on a dry surface can'
34 Olle: The swedish ministary of defence asks norway to explain their explainations..... This can get long term consequenses..... How much military equipment
35 N328KF: I honestly don't understand why he (or anyone) is surprised. F-35 was the lead horse from the beginning...
36 Nomadd22: I'm not sure how carbon brakes would help on an icy runway. Norway's ops would be kind of limited if the plane could only land on ice free surfaces.
37 SAS A340: Anger over Norway's fighter plane rejection Published: 21 Nov 08 16:39 CET Online: http://www.thelocal.se/15858/20081121/ A former Saab executive lash
39 TGIF: Sounds like his feelings are similar to the ones expressed by Boeing when NG/EADS won the KC-45 deal. I think one big issue is that Norway says that
40 SAS A340: One of them was the costs,Norrway clamed that the Gripen costs during a 40 year span would have a pricetag of about 22 bilj dollar,and according to S
41 Mortyman: Press release from LM: http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/p...08/112008ae_f35_norway-future.html
42 OyKIE: There was an article in Aftenposten today, who says all the experts did the analysis one more time, since they were surprised that the difference was
43 Someone83: Maybe the Swedish minister need to be reminded who our main allies are?....one hint: NATO! Not sure, but just because we don't want your planes, does
44 Mortyman: From what I have heard, Sweden does'nt buy equipment from other nations because of their neutral policy. Norway has bought CV 90's from Sweden and Str
45 MCIGuy: There are plenty of AT-4s in use by the US as well, another Saab product.
46 Moriarty: I don't think we know all the facts behind the Norwegian decision. But judging by what's being said up to this point I think the above is head on. Of
47 TGIF: Does that mean Norway don't need to explain them selves to non-NATO members? And because they are part of NATO, non-NATO nation’s proposals may be
49 Someone83: Which false grounds? Several independent analysis have judged the JSF to be a better aircraft, which is not surprising considering it is a generation
50 TGIF: I've never said that the JSF wasn't a better aircraft. I'm saying that the Norwegian evaluation seem to have left out some Gripen NG capabilities. On
51 TGIF: If you by any chance haven't seen this you might want to. Regarding the Norwegian cost estimations. http://www.aftenposten.no/meninger/kommentarer/ar
52 SAS A340: Maybe Norway runs it's airforce in a very very very very different way,i don't know but Norway was told that it was real hard to tell for sure what t
53 Scooter01: Just remember, -the customer is ALWAYS right. Scooter01
55 OyKIE: This might be a bit out of topic. But how much do the F-22 and F35 have in common? Is the fuselage almost identical?
56 MCIGuy: There's almost no commonality. The biggest thing they have in common is the engine, or more precisely, the engine core. The F135 engine is a derivati
57 LNv22: Heh, yeah, and by the way, F22 got two of them (P&W F119-PW-100) F35 is a single..
58 N328KF: AvWeek says you're wrong. The same F-22 articles I mentioned above (from the January 8, 2007 edition) describe the avionics. The F-35's avionics are
59 MCIGuy: Yeah, I did, but I don't know if I consider that a lot of commonality. They're both made of carbon fiber, so I guess thay have that in common too. I
60 N328KF: Right, well pick up a copy of the AvWeek in question. That and many other sources illustrate how much the F-22 and F-35 share, technologywise. And th
61 MCIGuy: Well sure, I wouldn't argue that they don't have a lot of technology in common, of course they do. As for part-for-part commonality, not so much.
62 Art: I understand that there is a debrief scheduled for 4th December. Could be interesting. Norway has basically said that when they evaluated the cost of
63 TGIF: Indeed that will be an interesting debriefing. As I've understood it, Saab were selling the Gripen NG to Norway through FMV (Swedish Defense Material
64 SAS A340: It will be really interesting to hear! there must be huge costs outside the Gripen itself that we don't know about,due to the fact that the whole Gri
65 OyKIE: Thank you for your answers. You gave me a better knowledge of what they have in common. I have read the article N328KF quotes, and that was a very in
66 MCIGuy: Yeah, I think that's more about keeping the LockMart assembly line personell working. They want the folks who are currently building Raptors to smoot
67 TGIF: So it begins... Although I did expect it, I didn't expect increased cost estimates this soon. http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...6cAAABS&prod=1003
68 SAS A340: I wonder if all this will have such a "domino effect" to the F-35 for ex. Denmark's decision to replace the old F-16,s.....Would't you want to know wh
69 TGIF: Saab has made a public response to the debriefing they have been given by Norway. http://www.saabgroup.com/en/MediaRel...omments_on_norwegian_evaluti
70 Alien: Sour Swedish grapes. Here are some things not given in Saabs's reply. F-35 Acquisition costs 1/3 less than Gripen NG. Even if F-35 production run is
71 TGIF: Of course Saab is upset. Their credibility is at stake because of Norway's inability to acquire correct data from the proposers and to evaluate them
72 SAS A340: so you find this more correct... Apparently not.......
73 TGIF: Saab has done new cost calculations based on the new information given to them by Norway at the press conference the 20th of November and during the b
74 Mortyman: The Norwegian government has today officially asked the Norwegian parliment for permission to open negotiation with LM for delivery of 56 JSF. The Nor
75 F27Friendship: hey, how did they go from 48 to 56?
76 TGIF: A conclusion from the evaluation was that 52 aircrafts were needed to fulfill the operational needs and another 4 were needed for education. The numb
77 Mortyman: I beleave that 19th of december was the original date set for the announcment of what plane to go for by the government. The announcment came several
78 TGIF: Yeah, who will ever forget that. I thought an announcement could be made around the 15th and that the bill would be passed the 19th. Perhaps I'm naiv
79 Art: Based on initial indications and inquiries from Obama’s transition team, Air Force Maj. Gen. Charles R. Davis said he’s confident the F-35 program
80 TGIF: It doesn't IMO... This is although closer: Norway’s JSF Price Tag is $3.2 Billion and Rising A guy on another forum tried to explain it by saying (
81 SAS A340: True,according to media in Denmark,Norway and Sweden,pricetag for one Norwegian F-35 is now for the plane alone 130 US million $ / plane, and close t
82 Brendows: There's much confusion on how much a F-35 will cost, and I'd that's because there are several types of prices, and I wouldn't be surprised if the gen
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