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How To Fight Pirates?  
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4675 posts, RR: 3
Posted (5 years 5 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6069 times:

The recent developments around the Horn of Africa got me thinking: What is the best way to combat pirate ships/boats?

IMO the large "motherships" are relatively easy to fight: They have a big radar signature and conventional anti-shipping missiles or large caliber guns (mounted on warships) can be used.

But what about small boats such as zodiacs? Their radar and IR signatures must be very small, so they are hard to find. If they are within visible range of a warship, small guns (20 - 30 mm) can be used effectively. But can they be detected over large distances? And once you find them, how do you sink them? Most anti-shipping missiles are way to large and unpractical for these small, maneuverable boats. Using guns mounted in combat aircraft / helicopters can't be a very good solution either.


What are your thoughts concerning this issue?


A342


Exceptions confirm the rule.
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCurlyheadboy From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 940 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6043 times:

Interesting thread A342,
I agree that sinking larger vessels should be relatively easy with anti-ship missiles, those can be launched directly from navy ships, helicopters, fighters and anti-submarine aircrafts. Getting an Harpoon hit on a large target, with no counter-measures should be very easy and a single hit should sink or at least permanently disable the opponent vessel.
When it comes to small boats that are not within visual range and cannot be detected or fired upon with small guns, I think you're kinda forced into considering them targets of opportunity: Once you can get a positive ID that the particular boat is a legitimate target, you send what you have.
Every navy has its own weapon systems, needless to say. I think the US Navy can launch AGM-65 missiles from the F-18... and the AGM-114 from SH-60s, that's what I would use if the target was offrange (but you must have a carrier in the theatre and that's not always the case). Other than that, everything would work on a small boat, yet it's very difficult to get there in the first place, that's a reason why piracy is such a pain to fight.
IMO the ideal would be having UAVs armed with AGM-114s patrolling the area from the sky but the operating range of current versions make it difficult to put this into practice...



If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6043 times:



Quoting A342 (Thread starter):
Using guns mounted in combat aircraft / helicopters can't be a very good solution either.

Why? While I can imagine that detecting zodiacs isn't easy I don't see any problems why hunting zodiacs with choppers shouldn't be a good solution. Choppers could be used to find them in the first place, too.

pelican


User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5990 times:

The best defense is a killer offense.  Wink


Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineAreopagus From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1368 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5958 times:

Equip the tankers with Phalanx close-in weapons systems.

User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8215 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5957 times:

How to fight pirates... India will enjoy using them for more target practice.

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16694 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5945 times:



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 3):
The best defense is a killer offense

Absolutely, hire some rival pirates to harass pirates. It worked in Anbar Province in Iraq, the Marines brought the local Sunni insurgency into their payroll and rolled Al Qaeda out of Abhar.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5943 times:

A couple of considerations.

1.Just like fighting an insurgency, good intel is paramount.
2. Given the huge swath of ocean these criminals are capable of operating, the few warships available must be augmented by effective maritime recon aircraft, who can vector the nearest naval platforms to make the intercept.

Of course, the problem with this is gathering actionable intelligence and who will contribute the necessary assets?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3186 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5934 times:



Quoting A342 (Thread starter):
But what about small boats such as zodiacs? Their radar and IR signatures must be very small, so they are hard to find. If they are within visible range of a warship, small guns (20 - 30 mm) can be used effectively. But can they be detected over large distances? And once you find them, how do you sink them? Most anti-shipping missiles are way to large and unpractical for these small, maneuverable boats. Using guns mounted in combat aircraft / helicopters can't be a very good solution either.

Take out the pirates before they get into the little boats.. ala air strike.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5908 times:

Just how do they get on board the Tankers from those Zodiac's?

User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5808 times:



Quoting A342 (Thread starter):
But what about small boats such as zodiacs?

Tankers around Thailand and Indonesia have had trouble with pirates before this Somalian crisis. From what I'm heard, deck lighting during night and water canons have worked out quite well. A zodiac will fill-up quite fast...  Smile


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12065 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5766 times:



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 3):
The best defense is a killer offense.

I agree, use the AC-130s  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1907 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5767 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):
Just how do they get on board the Tankers from those Zodiac's?

The large oil tanker hijacked this week was entered with ropes, just like the old days. The crew of the tanker was found surprised, because the pirates were operating miles away from their normal territory. The tanker was going along near Mombasa, Kenia.

Cheers!  wave 



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlineCURLYHEADBOY From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 940 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5757 times:



Quoting Pelican (Reply 2):
Why? While I can imagine that detecting zodiacs isn't easy I don't see any problems why hunting zodiacs with choppers shouldn't be a good solution. Choppers could be used to find them in the first place, too.

I agree, but the main point is that you need to be there at the right time. Once they seize a ship with all the crew you're done, they win. I don't think you can effectively fight them at sea, you should rather find their land bases and JDAM the living daylight out of them.
But, then again, if the discussion is about how to sink a zodiac, I agree a simple machine gune on a helicopter can do the job.



If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3186 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5638 times:



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 13):
you should rather find their land bases and JDAM the living daylight out of them.

Yep.. At this point the whole piracy thing is a very low risk venture for these pirates. A couple of airstrikes would go a long way to changing that mindset.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineGST From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 930 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5575 times:



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 13):
you should rather find their land bases and JDAM the living daylight out of them.
But, then again, if the discussion is about how to sink a zodiac, I agree a simple machine gune on a helicopter can do the job.

That is all well and good but in a lawless country such as somalia there is no reason to suppose the pirates are not operating from busy ports used by fiishing fleets and the population at large. AIr strikes would in these cases achieve a huge ammount of human suffering for relatively low odds of seriously damaging the pirates ability to put to sea. I suppose you could get boots on the ground but that seems hellishly likely to bring us back to the 1993 scenario.


I agree however that helicopters are the best means of dealing with them, perhaps the USMC cobras are the ultimate, a navilised gunship with weapons capable of cutting zodiacs in half and crippling fairly large base ships.

Is there any reason why chinooks couldnt deploy boats like they already can recover special forces zodiacs? On clam water days I'm getting an image of a cobra and chinook being vectored to pirate speedboats by maritime patrol aircraft, the cobra firing warning shots and being generally ready to hose the target whilst the chinook puts marines in their own zodiacs "feet wet" to make a stop and search on the target, with the possibility of taking prisoners if weapons are found. Perhaps a fantasy but it makes me smile.


Regardless any serious attempt to stop piracy in the region requires massive cooperation. Effective maritime patrol aircraft are required, to communicate with naval units and other assets, all if possible backed up by boots on the ground giving info like where the bases are and when pirates put to sea etc.


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6739 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5562 times:

I posted this option in the political forum, will add it to this thread. My theory is to harden the target, as no one right now has any desire to correct the problem within the country - Somalia -, it has been lawless for years and no one really cares, UN, EU, US, etc. so my options are:

1. Establish bases with troops and helicopters in the friendly countries neighbouring Somalia, essentially at the northern and southern end of the shipping lane.
2. When vessels are about to enter the shipping lane, fly armed troops out to the ship with the intent of repelling boarders
3. When the vesseles are leaving the shiping lane, helicopters go out and pick up the troops.
4. This venture would be paid for by the insurance and shipping companies who are presently paying ransom

This would be much cheaper than invading Somalia and attempting to establish a functioning govt. Navy ships can continue to patrol the lane, when the zodiacs are repelled and contact their mother ship for help, those on the target ship would do the same, who would get their first? Navy ships also have helicopters, so if the mother ship comes to the rescue they would have to expose themselves which presently they do not want to do, India got lucky and caught one, the first so far in the months since international navies have been on the scene

Pirates made one fatal mistake and got unlucky on another, the ship with weapons and the tanker. The school of thought who say that everything is done for oil will now have to stand up and be counted as they are now attacking tankers.


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4675 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5547 times:



Quoting Pelican (Reply 2):
I don't see any problems why hunting zodiacs with choppers shouldn't be a good solution.



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 13):
But, then again, if the discussion is about how to sink a zodiac, I agree a simple machine gune on a helicopter can do the job.

I'm no expert, but I think this is only feasible if the guns/canons are moveable. Aiming at a zodiac with fixed weapons must be a nightmare.
We should also consider the need to minimise the risk for aircraft / ship crews. It's better to fight the pirates from a distance where they can't use machine guns themselves.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 8):
Take out the pirates before they get into the little boats

If possible, that's the best option of course. But in many cases, you can only see them when it's too late.


But the question how to find them over long distances is still largely unanswered. Does anyone know the typical detection range of a maritime radar for small boats with little metal content?



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5492 times:

Well, it´s a wast area, I´m not too convinced about an military solution. I think a creation of
Somaliland which could jail pirates (and keep them in, the recent jailbreak shows that these
are well organized) and it would shrink the coastline with 25% which the pirates can operate from. A functioning government in Hargeisa recognized by all but Mogadishu would be the ultimate.
Pic from http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/Saaylac.jpg
Showing how the coastline can look in Somaliland, not all of Somalia is a desert, the impression you easily get by the media coverage from the Mog.

[Edited 2008-11-21 10:45:07]

User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1717 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5470 times:



Quoting A342 (Reply 17):
If possible, that's the best option of course. But in many cases, you can only see them when it's too late.

But the question how to find them over long distances is still largely unanswered.

Excellent points, and frankly points that have no easy answer. On any given day, the waters off the Somali coast are populated by hundreds of small boats and ships any one of which might be a pirate vessel. I don’t think the problem is detecting ships, or the range at which that can be done, the problem is determining which boats are actually pirate “targets” and which are not.

I support the notion that it is appropriate to attack and destroy these pirates using naval and/or air assets, but I suspect that is much easier said than done. If we blow up some fishing boat by mistake, and kill a bunch of civilians, that would very likely be viewed as unacceptable by the international community.



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3186 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5347 times:



Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 19):
If we blow up some fishing boat by mistake, and kill a bunch of civilians, that would very likely be viewed as unacceptable by the international community.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but.... if we did do that, perhaps said citizens wouldn't be so quick to support the pirates anymore. Sadly Somalia is a mess these days and something is going to have to give or it won't stop any time soon.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 915 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5340 times:



Quoting Par13del (Reply 16):

1. Establish bases with troops and helicopters in the friendly countries neighbouring Somalia, essentially at the northern and southern end of the shipping lane.
2. When vessels are about to enter the shipping lane, fly armed troops out to the ship with the intent of repelling boarders
3. When the vesseles are leaving the shiping lane, helicopters go out and pick up the troops.
4. This venture would be paid for by the insurance and shipping companies who are presently paying ransom

This would be much cheaper than invading Somalia and attempting to establish a functioning govt.

It's still a huge recurring cost compared to other options, though. This is a costly nuisance for sure, but I think it's important to avoid getting drawn into a prolonged police action.

I think the best solution was hit upon right here:

Quoting Curlyheadboy (Reply 1):
IMO the ideal would be having UAVs armed with AGM-114s patrolling the area from the sky but the operating range of current versions make it difficult to put this into practice...

This option would allow the most aggressive pursuit of pirates for the manpower cost or risk. The U.S. Navy is already operating an advanced decedent of the Predator known as the MQ-9 Reaper, which as the Wikipedia article states is bigger, longer-ranged, and carries more weaponry.

With a claimed endurance of 36 hours and a 220 kt cruise speed, that's essentially a range of 7,000 miles. That should be plenty of endurance to base patrol missions from an existing USAF air field.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MQ-9_Reaper


User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5298 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 3):
The best defense is a killer offense.

I agree, use the AC-130s

You read my mind! Big grin

Quoting GST (Reply 15):
I agree however that helicopters are the best means of dealing with them, perhaps the USMC cobras are the ultimate, a navilised gunship with weapons capable of cutting zodiacs in half and crippling fairly large base ships.


A few Hellfires near the water line and/or into a magazine and it's game over for the mother ship too.  Smile



Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineTIMC From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5288 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):

Absolutely, hire some rival pirates to harass pirates. It worked in Anbar Province in Iraq, the Marines brought the local Sunni insurgency into their payroll and rolled Al Qaeda out of Abhar.

I'm sorry but I think that is a particularly naive way to go about things. If you empower a rival group of pirates, once you've got rid of the original problem, you've then got the people you hired to deal with.

This has happened time and again throughout history. A lot of the problems in Afghanistan can be traced to various countries arming the population there in the late 70s and early 80s against the Soviets and that has led to rival factions becoming the al-Qaeda we know today. Arming a group of unaffiliated people is a very dangerous road to go down as you don't know how many other groups it will splinter off into and what will come back to bite you later on.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (5 years 5 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5281 times:

Quoting GST (Reply 15):
AIr strikes would in these cases achieve a huge ammount of human suffering for relatively low odds of seriously damaging the pirates ability to put to sea.

Agreed. As for striking their ships, terrorists in Iraq and the Taliban in Afghanistan have learned to (skillfully) exploit the media by using non-combatants as cover. When casualties occur, the initial reports are generally not favorable and inflame public opinion in the Islamic world. The pirates could take a page out of the same play book and use a "human shield" approach, only the non-combatants would be children. What then? That's why intelligence is vital.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 16):
1. Establish bases with troops and helicopters in the friendly countries neighbouring Somalia, essentially at the northern and southern end of the shipping lane.

Yes, but who is going to provide the assets?

Edit: Well, the Saudis want to play now.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...7&sid=af9WnV_oByg8&refer=worldwide

[Edited 2008-11-21 16:40:20]


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
25 MCIGuy : CIA and/or Special Forces on the ground, buying intelligence.
26 Post contains links Cloudy : http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htseamo/articles/20081119.aspx This seems like a good summary. The reason the problem has grown.... ....The pirates a
27 Par13del : Since they will only be travelling on the ship for a day or two you probably don't need special troops, regulars should be ok, as you are only harden
28 Flexo : I think sinking the motherships will solve most of the problem. With their little zodiacs they can't go that far out so their effective operating ran
29 Cpd : I also believe that getting rid of the mother vessels will sort most of the problem out. Most ships can then venture as they wish, staying out of rang
30 GST : Perhaps the freighters could learn a thing or two from the Japanese whaling ships and how they defend themselves from protesters.
31 Ozair : Are you brave enough to fire a water cannon at a guy in a boat while he is aiming an AK or RPG at you? Settle down there....popping off a radar guide
32 CURLYHEADBOY : If the missile malfunctions, it could either just dive into the sea, and that's just a miss, or sink a cargo ship or blow a fishermen's boat into the
33 R2rho : A ver interesting thread with no easy answers! Lots of interesting thoughts, but many of them not realistic given current conditions: the US are fight
34 Okelleynyc : Interesting thread... I don't have a clue as to how realistic this may be, but I'm reminded of the strategies used during World War II to protect troo
35 Lumberton : Let's back up one war...WW1. Remember "Q" ships? These were very armed merchants, masquerading as unarmed ships. The idea was to bring a U boat to cl
36 Post contains links R2rho : The region is worth a google maps visit to give you an idea of the kind of places these guys operate from: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=1...631&
37 Max Q : Q Ships are a great idea Lumberton, I would love to see the look on their faces when they realise the 'lamb' is a Wolf ! Just the uncertainty they wou
38 KC135TopBoom : My guess is the pirates are not useing much preplanning. I believe they set sail for open waters, and attack targets of opportunities. A lot of peopl
39 GST : These days GPS systems are dirt cheap too, so there is no reason they don't know exactly on the face of the globe they are, positioning themselves ex
40 Post contains links Lumberton : And there would be insurance considerations as well.... I threw it out there though as an alternative. Without dedicated intel assets to vector scarc
41 Par13del : And thats the reason why I think it will be difficult to get rid of the mother ships, under what laws are you going to board and search them, whose f
42 MCIGuy : If we have to do it ourselves then "coordinate this"!
43 Bennett123 : Personally , I favour Phalanx rather than missiles, (you have a better idea where your projectiles will end up). Helicopters, (even armed UHI/Lynx) wo
44 Woodreau : There's one other place (well two) other places that I am aware of that are similar but not the same in terms of interdicting pirates. You'll have to
45 Post contains links PPVRA : http://www.blackwaterusa.com/ Unlike Iraq, the Gulf of Aden shouldn't be a controversial place for them.
46 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Up close and personal. The AC-130 may be considered overkill by some, but I see it as a highly efficent weapons platform that gets the job done, over
47 SP90 : This is becoming the mess it is right now because up until now no one really gave a crap since the actions were low profile and ransom demands low. Ri
48 Mortyman : A Norwegain captain of a tanker fought the pirates off using a powerful water cannon. after 30 minutes they pirates had had enough. There was another
49 Bennett123 : KC135TopBoom IMO Self Defense is generally up close and personal, (so are RPG's). I think that it is important to remember that there is a distinction
50 Flexo : Yes it does, but sometimes sacrifices have to be taken to defend and ensure freedom. We tend to take our freedom for granted because the last large s
51 Bennett123 : I think that if you read all of my comments, you will see that I am not advocating pacifism. I agree that you can not make an omellete without breakin
52 Post contains links Bennett123 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-7 As a matter of interest, I note that it has a range of 900M, (does anyone know the effective range). By effective,
53 R2rho : This may be politically incorrect, but why not 'encourage' Ethiopia to take control over Somaliland, with Western 'consent'...?
54 Bennett123 : I think that this has already been tried. Given that Ethiopia and Somalia were at war in 1976/1977, this may not be a good idea.
55 Post contains links MCIGuy : NATO Rejects Naval Blockade: Military.com
56 Post contains links MCIGuy : Breaking: Pirate Ship Sank By Indian Navy Actually A Hijacked Vessel CNN
57 Flexo : Well, according to the article that is not 100% clear yet. You omitted the last, important, part of the headline: 'Owner Says' But here we see the ma
58 MarSciGuy : I am fairly certain that arming merchant marine vessels is against a whole slew of international norms, treaties, laws, what have you...though I could
59 Luv2cattlecall : I know it would involve some modifications and pumps...but they could theoretically put a "ring" of down facing water jets around the perimeter...and
60 Post contains links Lumberton : It appears that it was a Thai fishing vessel that had been seized by the criminals, not a "pirate ship". http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081126/ap_on_re
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