Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/non_aviation/read.main/1441120/

Topic: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AAFLT1871
Posted 2006-11-20 18:23:02 and read 5765 times.

How far he has fallen



http://www.tmz.com/

http://us.video.aol.com/video.index.adp?mode=1&pmmsid=1772645

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Charlienorth
Posted 2006-11-20 18:29:32 and read 5752 times.

Joining the Mel Gibson club???

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: SlamClick
Posted 2006-11-20 18:40:06 and read 5730 times.

Well, I just checked the Apollo Theater website. He is NOT on their calendar.

Yet another reason why I don't much care what celebrities have to say when they are not performing. They have an act and that is about it, damn few of them have an actual personality or mind or any character behind it.

Drugs maybe?

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AAFLT1871
Posted 2006-11-20 19:03:42 and read 5694 times.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 2):
Drugs maybe?

Quite Possible. I had met this man a few years ago at a charity dinner and he was a very soft spoken person. So to see this was a shock to me. If not drugs or alcohol, maybe the frustration has gotten to him that he really has found no success since Seinfeld ended. He will always be typecast as a Kramer type character. I am sure his PR people will try and save face by annoucing that Michael is going into some type of rehab facility.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: ArmitageShanks
Posted 2006-11-20 21:11:04 and read 5608 times.

"Richards, who played the wacky Cosmo Kramer on the hit TV show "Seinfeld," appeared onstage at the Laugh Factory in West Hollywood. Kyle Doss, an African-American, told TMZ he and some friends were in the cheap seats and he was playfully heckling Richards when suddenly, the comedian lost it. "

They were being assholes and he called them on it. You don't go to a comedy club and heckle the comedian. That's not the place for you to voice your opinion. You go there, listen and leave. If you don't like what's going on get up and leave.

They deserved it.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: UALPHLCS
Posted 2006-11-20 21:16:52 and read 5596 times.

WOW...

All I can say is...WOW.

So from what I can see he flipped out because some black folks where talking during his routine. I know that can be annoying. It is rude. I've been in audiences at comedy clubs and movies where people, did that. But WOW. To single them out like that and say what he said? It was uncalled for. He's supposed to be a funny guy. Black comedians make fun of the tendency for Black people to talk at shows all the time. You'd think he could have retooled one of their jokes to make his point and make it funny.

You do have to wonder if he is frustrated over the lack of post-Seinfeld success. However, when someone really comes unhinged their true feelings come out, so I think he was showing his true colors.

I think we have the 2006 winner of the Saddam Hussein Career Move Award.

Previous winners include Shelly Long and David Caruso. He just leaped into the lead formerly held by John Kerry.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: SlamClick
Posted 2006-11-20 21:17:18 and read 5596 times.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 4):
They deserved it.

Well...

They deserved any barbs he felt like sending their way, or even being bounced from the club. On the other hand, hurling the N-grenade like that is an insult and offense to ALL African-descended persons and indeed to anyone who cares about other humans.

What is more, it is almost certainly actionable in court.

P.S. Yes world! There are cameras on you.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: UALPHLCS
Posted 2006-11-20 21:32:10 and read 5574 times.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 4):
They were being assholes and he called them on it.

I agree.

But if he was a good comedian he could have done it in a funny way without resorting to demeaning people.

They were assholes and he became one himself because he couldn't think of a way to make people laugh at them.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: CastleIsland
Posted 2006-11-20 21:45:48 and read 5551 times.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 7):
They were assholes and he became one himself because he couldn't think of a way to make people laugh at them.

For example, he could have said: "Hey, pipe down there in front, or I'll have to knock a Titleist into YOUR blowholes."

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: PROSA
Posted 2006-11-20 22:04:42 and read 5544 times.

Seinfeld is one of the most popular TV shows in syndication, being shown by stations all over the country and undoubtedly earning a fortune. It'll be interesting to see if some stations are pressured into dropping the show. Of course Richards is just one of four major characters, but the extreme nature of his outburst might lead to some pretty extreme reactions.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: ArmitageShanks
Posted 2006-11-20 22:18:48 and read 5524 times.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 6):
What is more, it is almost certainly actionable in court.

You're kidding right? You can't go to prison for calling someone a nigger. Sometimes free speech is offensive.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AAFLT1871
Posted 2006-11-20 22:22:00 and read 5518 times.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 4):
They were being assholes and he called them on it

Calling them on it is one thing, turning it racial is another.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 4):
You don't go to a comedy club and heckle the comedian

I have been to several comedy clubs where this has happened including the Laugh Factory in this video, and each time the comedian will come back and work off of the heckler drawling laughter from it. If the heckler gets too bad, maybe just a person who was born an ass and wants to keep going, club bouncers are to escort the heckler out of the building so not to ruin the other partrons time.

Quoting PROSA (Reply 9):
. It'll be interesting to see if some stations are pressured into dropping the show

That will not happen

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Jaysit
Posted 2006-11-20 22:25:11 and read 5513 times.

"How to tell a Joke" by Kramer and Kerry.

Now priced to go for only $ 0.99 with "How to stay thin by hating" by Ann Coulter and "Teletubbies take over Hanoi" by GWB and Angela Merkel.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: APFPilot1985
Posted 2006-11-20 22:35:37 and read 5499 times.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 5):
You do have to wonder if he is frustrated over the lack of post-Seinfeld success.

I'm sure that he is still loaded and could care less.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2006-11-20 22:40:00 and read 5492 times.

I dunno....was he trying to do a Lenny Bruce type thang?

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: FSPilot747
Posted 2006-11-20 23:11:33 and read 5477 times.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 4):

They deserved it.

Ok Strom.

When Mel Gibson went on his drunken rant, it was "breaking news" and "headline news" and was a front page story.

Richards loses his cool and goes off by calling audience members niggers and making historical references to discrimination (in public, even) and it gets barely a mention on the networks.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Bobster2
Posted 2006-11-21 01:20:33 and read 5377 times.

Reminds me of "The Doors" infamous Miami concert. Alcohol. Main difference was Richards didn't get arrested.

The important thing is "Seinfeld" season 7 is released tomorrow. Woo-hoo!!!

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: ANCFlyer
Posted 2006-11-21 01:26:55 and read 5364 times.

What Richards did and said was way over the line . . . period. Not funny and racist. He's a has been and has been for a while. The short lived series he had (and Jason Alexander had) after Seinfeld simply sucked. He's fallen even further with this stunt.

Now . . . .

Let me ask a question: If the comic using the "N" word had been a black man or woman, would there be an uproar?

What makes it OK for someone of color to use that word - repeatedly - in their 'comedy' routines, but as soon as a white man says it, it makes National News?

Hypocrites anyone?

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: NIKV69
Posted 2006-11-21 01:31:16 and read 5355 times.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 4):
They were being assholes and he called them on it. You don't go to a comedy club and heckle the comedian. That's not the place for you to voice your opinion. You go there, listen and leave. If you don't like what's going on get up and leave.

They deserved it.

Are you for real? Sure they deserved it but why call them niggers? Why make racial slurs? He crossed the line. Big time. What shocked me more was when they got up and were walking they were telling him that what he said was uncalled for and he said "That is what happens when you interrupt the white man!" That was a little telling. He screwed the dog bigtime here. He almost looked like he was melting down. He better get on camera and make a sincere apology now. What he did was wrong.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: DavestanKSAN
Posted 2006-11-21 01:42:29 and read 5337 times.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 4):
They deserved it.

Uhmmm NO they didn't. There was no need to bring race into the situation. Especially when a white man calls a black man the N word.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Let me ask a question: If the comic using the "N" word had been a black man or woman, would there be an uproar?

What makes it OK for someone of color to use that word - repeatedly - in their 'comedy' routines, but as soon as a white man says it, it makes National News?

Hypocrites anyone?

Sorry ANC I'm gunna have to disagree with you here. It's not hypocritical. A white person can never call a black person the N word. Period. Plain and simple.

Dave

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: APFPilot1985
Posted 2006-11-21 01:47:37 and read 5327 times.

Whats funny is that those people who were heckling him were no better, they turned around and called him a cracker.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: ANCFlyer
Posted 2006-11-21 01:49:15 and read 5325 times.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 19):
A white person can never call a black person the N word

I quite agree. Absolutely.

I think you miss my point here. IF Michael Richards had been a black man, would there be the uproar over his use of the "N" word?

Answer: NO. It is socially acceptable IMO for a black man to use that word in reference to other black persons. That makes anyone using that word, and then complaining about it be directed towards them, a hypocrite . . .

Sorta like the assmonkey that doesn't vote but goes on to bitch about the administration!

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: UALPHLCS
Posted 2006-11-21 01:55:44 and read 5314 times.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 19):
Especially when a white man calls a black man the N word.



Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 19):
It's not hypocritical. A white person can never call a black person the N word. Period. Plain and simple.

While I agree that it is wrong for anyone to call anyone else the "N" word, I fail to see why Richards' being white makes the word WORSE. I know, I know, Black comedians and Black people call one another that all the time, but frankly if they want the word to disappear then it has to be taboo to use for everyone, Black, White, Asian, Pink polka dots.

It is hypocritical to use that word privately then get upset if someone else uses that word, especially if you make using it worse if someone is of another race. Its reverse racism. It perpetuates hate. people shouldn't use it no matter who they are and everyone ought to be outraged no matter who says it.

Let me ask you this:

Why does Quentin Tarantino get to use it with impunity in Pulp Fiction and other movies, while Richards doesn't? I think both uses are wrong, and the difference in the way people react to the two situations IS hypocritical.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: JFK69
Posted 2006-11-21 02:05:43 and read 5300 times.

One great thing about cringe comedy is that the comedian will not only think the worst thing, but then go ahead and say what we are all thinking, but don't have the balls to. I am not saying I agree or disagree with "Kramer" here but the sad part here is probably about half the comedy club were thinking the same thing.....He just happened to be the one that called them out on it.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: DavestanKSAN
Posted 2006-11-21 02:10:56 and read 5284 times.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
think you miss my point here. IF Michael Richards had been a black man, would there be the uproar over his use of the "N" word?

Answer: NO. It is socially acceptable IMO for a black man to use that word in reference to other black persons. That makes anyone using that word, and then complaining about it be directed towards them, a hypocrite . . .

Sorta like the assmonkey that doesn't vote but goes on to bitch about the administration!

I see what you're saying my friend however, if a Black person uses that word it doesn't have the same aggression and hatred behind it as opposed to another race using it. I mean look at the history of the word, and how it was used by whites. When a Black person calls another Black person the N word, 99% of the time it is not meant in the hateful way it would be if someone from another race called a Black person the word. Even if a white person calls a Black person the N word, and doesn't intend to mean it hatefully, it is nearly impossible to distinguish that he or she didn't mean it offensively.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 22):
While I agree that it is wrong for anyone to call anyone else the "N" word, I fail to see why Richards' being white makes the word WORSE. I know, I know, Black comedians and Black people call one another that all the time, but frankly if they want the word to disappear then it has to be taboo to use for everyone, Black, White, Asian, Pink polka dots.

Again, look at the history of White people using it against Black people. You do make a good point about the word should be taboo for all, however refer to my reply to ANC's post.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 22):
Why does Quentin Tarantino get to use it with impunity in Pulp Fiction and other movies, while Richards doesn't? I think both uses are wrong, and the difference in the way people react to the two situations IS hypocritical.

Because they are movies. Richards was performing at a live event. It was real life.

Dave

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: UALPHLCS
Posted 2006-11-21 02:29:47 and read 5270 times.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 24):
Because they are movies. Richards was performing at a live event. It was real life.

That's splitting hairs. A performance is a performance.

It's just as wrong for Richards to use it as it is for Tarantino to use it in an artistic way.

The word will never go away if people keep using it black and white.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: DavestanKSAN
Posted 2006-11-21 02:38:02 and read 5341 times.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 25):
That's splitting hairs. A performance is a performance.

Yes, but Richards was being heckeled. His commentary was not part of his performance, it was added. Unless it was some big PR stunt to get his name out there, which I doubt.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 25):
It's just as wrong for Richards to use it as it is for Tarantino to use it in an artistic way.

True, it makes things a bit complicated. But when an actor or actress plays a murderer in a movie, is he or she one in real life? I think people see the difference between when the word is used in a movie or script, as opposed to real life situations.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 25):
The word will never go away if people keep using it black and white.

This is true.

Dave

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In
Username: FSPilot747
Posted 2006-11-21 02:46:56 and read 5339 times.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Answer: NO. It is socially acceptable IMO for a black man to use that word in reference to other black persons. That makes anyone using that word, and then complaining about it be directed towards them, a hypocrite . . .

ANCFlyer, when blacks use it, it's usually a socially jovial form of referring to each other. Blacks generally say it to blacks, among blacks, in a certain type of context.

The way Richards said it was more of a hate thing. His underlying racist attitudes surfaced when he became infuriated. It's very different from what, say, Chris Rock might call an all black audience. "What's up niggas!" vs. "You fucking nigger! Get them out of here!"

The contrast is crystal clear.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: QANTASforever
Posted 2006-11-21 03:01:04 and read 5324 times.

Look kids! A falling star!

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 4):
They were being assholes and he called them on it.

No, this is not how a comedian of talent 'calls someone'. Heckle them back, be witty, be clever - but dropping an n*bomb? Nooooo way.

QFF

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: ShyFlyer
Posted 2006-11-21 03:35:21 and read 5295 times.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 4):
That's not the place for you to voice your opinion. You go there, listen and leave. If you don't like what's going on get up and leave.

Well, yes, this is true. However:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 7):
But if he was a good comedian he could have done it in a funny way without resorting to demeaning people.

It you are going to make it in Stand Up, you've got to be able to deal appropriately with the hecklers.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 5):
You do have to wonder if he is frustrated over the lack of post-Seinfeld success.

That's what crossed my mind. There might be some personal issues at play as well. To be honest, such thoughts are just speculation at this point.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2006-11-21 03:39:52 and read 5288 times.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 24):
I see what you're saying my friend however, if a Black person uses that word it doesn't have the same aggression and hatred behind it as opposed to another race using it. I mean look at the history of the word, and how it was used by whites. When a Black person calls another Black person the N word, 99% of the time it is not meant in the hateful way it would be if someone from another race called a Black person the word. Even if a white person calls a Black person the N word, and doesn't intend to mean it hatefully, it is nearly impossible to distinguish that he or she didn't mean it offensively.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 22):
While I agree that it is wrong for anyone to call anyone else the "N" word, I fail to see why Richards' being white makes the word WORSE. I know, I know, Black comedians and Black people call one another that all the time, but frankly if they want the word to disappear then it has to be taboo to use for everyone, Black, White, Asian, Pink polka dots.

Again, look at the history of White people using it against Black people. You do make a good point about the word should be taboo for all, however refer to my reply to ANC's post.

I think you're bending over backwards here. It's offensive. Racial stereotypes are in poor taste at best no matter who uses them-why give permission?

If black folks figure it's not a bad thing because one of their own uses the hateful word, then they're fools because it's so value laden. I'm not about to make that assumption that I'm per se off base in my choice of language because of my skin color and they're OK because of theirs-that's the worst sort of patronization.

And it is value laden in a way that other ethnic epithets are not...f'rinstance that man in the audience called Richards a cracker....well, I guess I'm a cracker (I know for sure my old man was a Florida cracker) and I do not feel particularly offended...that farther along the continuum you get the more hateful the words become....

It's a question of pointing out the mote in thy brother's eye while ignoring the beam in one's own, right?

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AerospaceFan
Posted 2006-11-21 04:01:46 and read 5261 times.

I've just had the chance to view CNN's news story on Richards' little rant. What a complete disaster for him. His tirade was truly uncalled-for. But worse, it makes me question what he really thinks, underneath all that Hollywood glitz.

Brave men and women of all colors are dying overseas just so that people like Richards can say whatever they desire in peace. For this, the public receives the filth of the kind he said in fury, meant, apparently, to injure and disparage to the core. It saddens me greatly that a public figure like him cannot set a better example.

[Edited 2006-11-21 04:18:46]

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: ANCFlyer
Posted 2006-11-21 04:03:15 and read 5256 times.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 24):
I see what you're saying my friend however, if a Black person uses that word it doesn't have the same aggression and hatred behind it as opposed to another race using it.

But it should.

Quoting FSPilot747 (Reply 27):
ANCFlyer, when blacks use it, it's usually a socially jovial form of referring to each other. Blacks generally say it to blacks, among blacks, in a certain type of context.

Same answer.

Quoting FSPilot747 (Reply 27):
The way Richards said it was more of a hate thing.

Agreed, as you can see, I've made that clear way back.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
What Richards did and said was way over the line . . . period. Not funny and racist. He's a has been and has been for a while. The short lived series he had (and Jason Alexander had) after Seinfeld simply sucked. He's fallen even further with this stunt.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Bobster2
Posted 2006-11-21 04:04:53 and read 5252 times.

Richards went on the Letterman show to apologize. He was surprisingly honest, he admitted to feeling rage and hatred, took full responsibility without blaming alcohol or any other substance. Seinfeld was on Letterman to plug the new DVD, but he had to give up some of his time to deal with the Richards disaster. Pre-taped for broadcast later tonight at the regular time.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AerospaceFan
Posted 2006-11-21 04:08:27 and read 5245 times.

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 33):
Richards went on the Letterman show to apologize.

That's awfully big of him. I guess this is what happens "when a white man" commits an offense. [/Sarcasm, directed at Richards.]

As Mel Gibson did before, Richards did what I think was irreparable damage to his career. What a fool. Now that I think about it, it seems to me it couldn't happen to a "nicer" guy.

[Edited 2006-11-21 04:16:34]

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: FSPilot747
Posted 2006-11-21 04:17:47 and read 5231 times.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 34):
Richards did what I think was irreparable damage to his career

What career? I think that's what those guys were making fun of, in fact.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AerospaceFan
Posted 2006-11-21 04:19:46 and read 5229 times.

Quoting FSPilot747 (Reply 35):
What career? I think that's what those guys were making fun of, in fact.

Oh, he may have a long career ahead of him yet -- as a has-been who, just perhaps, never was.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Jaysit
Posted 2006-11-21 04:20:35 and read 5228 times.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Answer: NO. It is socially acceptable IMO for a black man to use that word in reference to other black persons. That makes anyone using that word, and then complaining about it be directed towards them, a hypocrite . . .

Then you just don't get it.

When black people use the N-word, its co-opting that word and rendering it harmless. The use of the N-word by black folk is to take a demeaning invective and turn it into the nothing it is through context.

Its the same thing with every minority. The terms wog, fag, spic, whatever when used by the minority itself turn an offensive term upside down. When anyone else uses that term as an invective it is just that - an invective.

Just think about it. When family members make fun of one of their own, its all acceptable. But when an outsider comes in and does the same, its no longer acceptable. Anyone with half a brain would get it.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Bobster2
Posted 2006-11-21 04:20:48 and read 5238 times.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 34):
irreparable damage to his career

What career? I looked him up on Wikipedia and half the article is devoted to his racist rage. They have the uncensored transcript of what he said. He didn't have much of a career other than playing Kramer on "Seinfeld".

edit:

Quoting FSPilot747 (Reply 35):
What career?

We both said the same thing.  Smile

But this doesn't change the fact that he was great on "Seinfeld". I'm not going to let this ruin the new DVD release.

[Edited 2006-11-21 04:24:49]

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AerospaceFan
Posted 2006-11-21 04:30:53 and read 5211 times.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 37):
Just think about it. When family members make fun of one of their own, its all acceptable. But when an outsider comes in and does the same, its no longer acceptable. Anyone with half a brain would get it.

Agreed.

This is also why it is that although I often criticize Democrats and leftists in America, when it comes right down to it, I feel protective of all Americans, regardless of political affiliation. Deep down, whether we're left or right, we all share this country, and we all share in its fate. We're all Americans.

For blacks to criticize their own is different from when any outsider does it, and particularly when the outsider does it in anger as if the use of the vilest of language, and the most horrific of metaphors, is in any way justified in an attempt to vent and, apparently, to injure. No one has the moral right to use such words except one who lives with the hurt that it inflicts. The fact that someone like Richards has the legal right to say what he did, does not in any way mean that it was right to do so.

It would be as if a Hollywood celebrity had said in anger, to a Jewish audience member, "You're a big man here, aren't you? Too bad Hitler couldn't have killed you all, you dirty k*ke." Even as a non-Jew, I would be infuriated by any such reference. What Richards did was, in my view, comparable, as against black Americans, and it was far beyond merely unacceptable. It was absolutely sickening. In my opinion, Richards deserves all the criticism he gets.

[Edited 2006-11-21 04:48:34]

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: ANCFlyer
Posted 2006-11-21 04:41:00 and read 5190 times.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 37):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Answer: NO. It is socially acceptable IMO for a black man to use that word in reference to other black persons. That makes anyone using that word, and then complaining about it be directed towards them, a hypocrite . . .

Then you just don't get it.

I get it better than you do apparently.

Read the rest of my posts, this thread.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 37):
Just think about it. When family members make fun of one of their own, its all acceptable. But when an outsider comes in and does the same, its no longer acceptable. Anyone with half a brain would get it.

We're not talking about making fun of a family member here. You make fun of mine (save for my Mother) and I'll buy you a beer, or three. Apples and oranges.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 37):
The terms wog, fag, spic, whatever when used by the minority itself turn an offensive term upside down.

And the term remains offensive, and the person using said term is ignorant and demeans themselves with the use of the term. Nope, Jaysit - it's YOU that doesn't get it.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: THVGJP
Posted 2006-11-21 05:15:39 and read 5159 times.

[quote=Bobster2,reply=38]He didn't have much of a career other than playing Kramer on "Seinfeld".[/quo
You said it, the guys typecast as Kramer and thats it. I did see him in a old Miami Vice eposode a cople of months ago. It was filmed befor Seinfeld, tough seeing him act as a coked out drug dealer in the rerun.. all I can think of was Kramer

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: FSPilot747
Posted 2006-11-21 05:38:00 and read 5137 times.

ANCFlyer, kind of like how only Jews can make fun of jews?

Sacha Cohen goes off on Jews a lot, and so do pretty much all Jewish comedians. The reaction would not be the same if some Arab guy said the same stuff.

You can make fun of yourself, but when others pounce on you, it's different.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Allstarflyer
Posted 2006-11-21 06:03:24 and read 5109 times.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 19):
There was no need to bring race into the situation. Especially when a white man calls a black man the N word.



Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 19):
It's not hypocritical. A white person can never call a black person the N word. Period. Plain and simple.



Quoting Jaysit (Reply 37):
When black people use the N-word, its co-opting that word and rendering it harmless. The use of the N-word by black folk is to take a demeaning invective and turn it into the nothing it is through context.

Maybe it's harmless among blacks, but to say that among a mixed crowd, at the least, would probably make most people uncomfortable. Would you be comfortable if you were in a mixed group (whites, blacks, latin folks, etc.) and you heard a couple of the black guys calling each other the "N" word? Or if two of the white guys in the same group were Jews, would be as permissive if they called themselves the "K" word?

If I talked amongst other white folks - and only white folks - and spoke of my pasty, white, Caucasian butt, it probably would not be a big deal. Now if I spoke of my pasty, white, "cracker" butt, it probably would still not be a big deal - but it might make some people uncomfortable. Now if I said that last one in a mixed crowd (blacks, latins, whites, Asians), it would probably raise a few eyebrows. Whether blacks say the "N" word amongst each other or if whites tossed around "cracker" amongst each other - to do that in public puts images in other people's minds, namely "so is it ok to say stuff like that, or not?" . There can't be a double-standard, or else

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 25):
The word will never go away if people keep using it black and white.

Edited for grammar.

-R

[Edited 2006-11-21 06:05:20]

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: ANCFlyer
Posted 2006-11-21 06:15:24 and read 5094 times.

Quoting FSPilot747 (Reply 42):
ANCFlyer, kind of like how only Jews can make fun of jews?

I get it, believe me . . . . I get it.

I simply don't condone it - whether in racially mixed company or in ones own back yard - it's ignorant, degrading and doesn't speak well of whomever is using it. It's reflective of defective upbringing. And it's perpetual. Kids listen to parents and think it's okay and the cycle perpetuates itself. It's improper, it's bad form, it defies logic, ill-mannered, ignorant. It's NOT funny.

"Comedians" that think it's funny are ignorant. It's NOT funny. Chris Rock may be a funny sonofabitch but when he resorts to using the "N" word he loses credibility. Sacha Cohen - and Jackie Mason - my be funny as hell, roll on the damn floor funny - but using racial epithets to describe someone is ignorant and they lose credibility. I can do without their "comedy".

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AirWillie6475
Posted 2006-11-21 07:21:51 and read 5070 times.

That black guy called Richards a "cracker-ass", sorry but where is the outrage on that?? I am in no way defending what Kramer said but there is a big double standard here. It's ok for the black guy to call the white a cracker but when he's called a nigger its bad.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: FlyingTexan
Posted 2006-11-21 07:40:38 and read 5052 times.

Whew! I just saw that. Ooo Ooo Ooo. Guy is a racist.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 4):
They were being assholes and he called them on it.

Yea they were being assholes. He could have called them assholes but he called the niggers instead. That is different my friend.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AerospaceFan
Posted 2006-11-21 08:00:12 and read 5041 times.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 45):
That black guy called Richards a "cracker-ass", sorry but where is the outrage on that?? I am in no way defending what Kramer said but there is a big double standard here. It's ok for the black guy to call the white a cracker but when he's called a nigger its bad.

No, that's not right, either. And I'm not defending it.

But, as I see it, Richards is primarily at fault because, as a show business professional, he shouldn't have lost his cool.

I'm not a big fan of "no-fault" analyses. There is a measure of fault that is to be allocated here and it should be done fairly. If it hadn't been for Richards' racist comments to begin with, the audience member wouldn't have been provoked to -- childishly -- respond in kind.

Further, Richards' share of the blame is also much larger because he made so many more offensive remarks than the audience member.

Finally, there is the question of whether Richards' diatribe had been part of a comedic act. There is some indication that he tried to mitigate his remarks with asides that could be taken to show that he wanted them to be seen in this way. Ironically, had Richards not subsequently conceded that he had said what did out of rage, I would possibly have given him the benefit of that doubt. Now that he's admitted that he lost his temper, I see no reason to consider doing so.

[Edited 2006-11-21 08:04:01]

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: SESGDL
Posted 2006-11-21 08:45:34 and read 5017 times.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 45):
That black guy called Richards a "cracker-ass", sorry but where is the outrage on that?? I am in no way defending what Kramer said but there is a big double standard here. It's ok for the black guy to call the white a cracker but when he's called a nigger its bad.

Huh? I doubt that they called him a "cracker ass" first. He went on his racist tirade and them he was called names. I would've done the same thing if I was in the audience having my race attacked like that. Totally uncalled for. Hopefully what he had left of a career is over, people like this shouldn't be in the public eye.

Jeremy

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AirTranTUS
Posted 2006-11-21 08:56:04 and read 5011 times.

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 1):
Joining the Mel Gibson club???

I think this incident is worse, partly because it was taped and was released to the public, and partly because it seems drugs/alcohol were not a factor. I never saw Mel get on TV and apologize though, maybe because it wasn't taped?

I watched Richards on Letterman and he did seem very serious about his apology for his actions. Both he and Seinfeld were displeased when members of the audience laughed.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In
Username: Csavel
Posted 2006-11-21 10:41:04 and read 4982 times.

Is Cracker as bad as Nigger?
I think not because of the history of how the word was used. To even hae to go into that and explain is kind of astounding to me.

And who exactly is a Cracker anyway? I alwasy thought cCracker was specifically a white, lower class racist probably or possibly Southern, the classic In the Heat of the Night kind of guy. Sort of synonymous with "White Trash"
If someone called me a Cracker, I'd be more puzzled because I am a New York Kike, er Jew (I can say it you can't) Never occurred to me that I am in that category. Or am I? Am I a cracker?

At any rate, as many people have said, even thought he hecklers were assholes he could have called them on their asshole-ishness, but in stead he used the N-word. He chose the latter.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: DavestanKSAN
Posted 2006-11-21 11:01:38 and read 4960 times.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 30):
And it is value laden in a way that other ethnic epithets are not...f'rinstance that man in the audience called Richards a cracker....well, I guess I'm a cracker (I know for sure my old man was a Florida cracker) and I do not feel particularly offended...that farther along the continuum you get the more hateful the words become....

You've basically answered your own question here. Ask youself why you don't feel offended when you hear the word cracker. Why? Because it doesn't have the same history as the N word. It is still offensive, but it's not associated in the same terms as the N word. It doesn't bring up images of slavery and hatred. I am not condoning the use of the word, I agree I think it should not be said. But once again, look at the history behind the N word specifically when used by whites.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 43):
Maybe it's harmless among blacks, but to say that among a mixed crowd, at the least, would probably make most people uncomfortable. Would you be comfortable if you were in a mixed group (whites, blacks, latin folks, etc.) and you heard a couple of the black guys calling each other the "N" word? Or if two of the white guys in the same group were Jews, would be as permissive if they called themselves the "K" word?

To answer your question, yes I would feel comfortable. Maybe it's because I've grown up around it. But I see your point however, and it is valid.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 40):
And the term remains offensive, and the person using said term is ignorant and demeans themselves with the use of the term

Edit: Sorry it's late, grrrh I read your reply wrong. Ok let's just say for the N word: True it remains offensive, but to say a Black person who chooses to use the word is ignorant is not exactly true. I've met many Black people who use the N word who are amazing human beings. They are very aware of the history of the word and its negative connotations.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44):
I simply don't condone it - whether in racially mixed company or in ones own back yard - it's ignorant, degrading and doesn't speak well of whomever is using it. It's reflective of defective upbringing. And it's perpetual. Kids listen to parents and think it's okay and the cycle perpetuates itself. It's improper, it's bad form, it defies logic, ill-mannered, ignorant. It's NOT funny.

Thanks for that, I can see what your position is and understand your previous replies better because of that post. Again, I don't think you can say that if a Black person uses the word, he or she is automatically ignorant. There are always of course exceptions.

Dave

[Edited 2006-11-21 11:07:49]

[Edited 2006-11-21 11:10:48]

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: NIKV69
Posted 2006-11-21 12:09:22 and read 4941 times.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 22):
Why does Quentin Tarantino get to use it with impunity in Pulp Fiction and other movies, while Richards doesn't? I think both uses are wrong, and the difference in the way people react to the two situations IS hypocritical.

It is clear that the word nigger is being used in a totally different context in Pulp Fiction. Not even close to being the same. If you watch Richard's video it's easy to see.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 25):
It's just as wrong for Richards to use it as it is for Tarantino to use it in an artistic way

No, It's not. The word nigger alone doesn't mean anything. It's how it's used. Richards IMO showed a little racism there. Pulp Fiction did not. Pulp Fiction used it in a whole different manner and didn't offend.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In
Username: 767Lover
Posted 2006-11-21 12:50:00 and read 4929 times.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 43):
Maybe it's harmless among blacks,



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 43):
Whether blacks say the "N" word amongst each other or if whites tossed around "cracker" amongst each other - to do that in public puts images in other people's minds, namely "so is it ok to say stuff like that, or not?" . There can't be a double-standard,



Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 51):
Because it doesn't have the same history as the N word. It is still offensive, but it's not associated in the same terms as the N word. It doesn't bring up images of slavery and hatred.

Exactly why I hate to hear black people call each other "My n---er." Clearly in this context it is meant to be demeaning to the other person rather than empathetic.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44):
It's improper, it's bad form, it defies logic, ill-mannered, ignorant. It's NOT funny.

 checkmark 

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 47):
as a show business professional, he shouldn't have lost his cool.

 checkmark 

Quoting Csavel (Reply 50):
New York Kike, er Jew (I can say it you can't)

I have honestly never heard that term until now.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: UALPHLCS
Posted 2006-11-21 14:11:53 and read 4906 times.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 34):
As Mel Gibson did before, Richards did what I think was irreparable damage to his career. What a fool. Now that I think about it, it seems to me it couldn't happen to a "nicer" guy.

In fairness to Mel Gibson, without condoning his tirade, at least Mel was drunk. I mean look at the Drunk guys in Borat. Alcohol impairs judgement and people begin to say stuff they don't really mean, or at least say it in a manner that is easily misconstrued.

Richards did not say he was impaired in anyway. He was filled with rage, which I think made the truth behind a mask come out.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 36):
Oh, he may have a long career ahead of him yet -- as a has-been who, just perhaps, never was.

Yes he has a long career ahead of him opening K-Marts in East Jabip.

Other past winners of the Saddam Hussein Career Move award:

Danny Bonaduci

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 37):
When black people use the N-word, its co-opting that word and rendering it harmless. The use of the N-word by black folk is to take a demeaning invective and turn it into the nothing it is through context.

I think this is something they try to tell themselves. The "N" word is too well known and too filled with meaning. It would be like trying to take the Swastika back. Or the failed attempts to take back the Confederate Battle Flag. The Only successful symbol co-option has been the Pink Triangle. That was successful because it was not a symbol on par with the Swastika.

BTW I want to announce I'm joining Randal. We're taking Porch Monkey back.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: JFK69
Posted 2006-11-21 15:34:50 and read 4880 times.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 49):
I think this incident is worse, partly because it was taped and was released to the public, and partly because it seems drugs/alcohol were not a factor. I never saw Mel get on TV and apologize though, maybe because it wasn't taped?

I watched Richards on Letterman and he did seem very serious about his apology for his actions. Both he and Seinfeld were displeased when members of the audience laughed.

I don't necessarily see this as worse. Michael Richards is a washed up actor. He shoulnd't have any influence on hollywood, or the rest of the entertainment world. If Michael Richards wasn't Kramer, this would not have even made the news. it would have been just another ol' comedian who said the "N" word. It would have been forgotten hours after. Does anyone remember that comedian in Seattle who was being heckled by women in the crowd so he called them "C _ _ N T S". They then proceded to get on stage and start throwing punches. This is the media blowing this crap out of proportion.

Mel Gibson is a guy who has influence on the media and society. Look at what he did with the Passion. He is a man that people listen to and form opinion from. if people are forming opinions from Kramer, then they should slip in a puddle of AIDS.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: 767Lover
Posted 2006-11-21 16:00:20 and read 4862 times.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 49):
I watched Richards on Letterman and he did seem very serious about his apology for his actions.

Are all of these public apologies really meaningful? If I am a black person, does the apology make any difference? Did Mel Gibson's apology mean anything to Jews?

I'm not directing this at AirTranTUS, I just pulled the quote to highlight the issue of apologies.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: 767Lover
Posted 2006-11-21 16:03:47 and read 4859 times.

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 55):
if people are forming opinions from Kramer, then they should slip in a puddle of AIDS.

Huh?

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Vikkyvik
Posted 2006-11-21 16:14:27 and read 4855 times.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 54):
Richards did not say he was impaired in anyway. He was filled with rage, which I think made the truth behind a mask come out.

Rage can impair your judgment just as much as alcohol. Look at all the cases of road rage.....

Neither, though, is an excuse for your actions.

Honestly, he sounded quite contrite and repentful on Letterman. You cannot say that his true colors were showing through, because you really just don't know.

Anyway, at least he's apologizing.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: UALPHLCS
Posted 2006-11-21 16:23:57 and read 4850 times.

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 58):
Anyway, at least he's apologizing.

So did Mel Gibson, yet people keep hammering him.

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 58):
Rage can impair your judgment just as much as alcohol. Look at all the cases of road rage.....

Neither, though, is an excuse for your actions.

Agreed. However, I still see being impaired chemically by alcohol, makes you less capable of controlling yourself and less responsible for what you say. It does NOT make you less responsible for what you DO.

Richards allowed himself to spin out of control. He had the mic. He had the stage. He should have had the ability to control himself and the situation. Gibson was on his own, not on stage, not at a public appearance. He was not in control of himself or the situation. The difference is extreme, Richards had the ability and responsibility as the performer to handle the situation without losing control.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Vikkyvik
Posted 2006-11-21 17:11:30 and read 4831 times.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 59):
So did Mel Gibson, yet people keep hammering him.

True.....I don't hammer either of them. Hopefully they're doing what they need to do to come to terms with what they said, but it's not my problem.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 59):
Agreed. However, I still see being impaired chemically by alcohol, makes you less capable of controlling yourself and less responsible for what you say. It does NOT make you less responsible for what you DO.

I see absolutely no difference between respobsibility for what you SAY and what you DO. You're just as responsible for both, whether you're under the influence or not.

Besides which, in the case of rage, you could say you're chemically impaired as well, with all the adrenaline coursing through your system. Doesn't make a bit of difference.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: 767Lover
Posted 2006-11-21 17:16:38 and read 4830 times.

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 58):
Anyway, at least he's apologizing.

I wish he had left "the rest of us" out of his apology and focused solely on his mistake. Instead of saying "The rage in all of us..." of whatever it was he said exactly.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Queso
Posted 2006-11-21 17:27:55 and read 4826 times.

It's clear to see that there are two sides to offensive terms- those who use terms in an offensive manner and those who choose to be offended.

I've been called "gringo", "redneck", "cracker", "white bread", "white trash", etc, etc many times before and groups of people just like me have been stereotyped and referred to using those terms, but these are not perceived by large populations to be offensive. Why is that?

You are offended by what you choose to be offended by. When people hear the term "nigger", they are using that as a rallying point, nothing more. We are many generations removed now from the origin of the term but it still remains offensive because a certain ethic group has convinced the whole of society that it is morally unacceptable, effectively forcing their own idea of what is morally acceptable on everyone else. Even using the word itself in reference is looked upon as being less acceptable than outwardly using profanity in many cases, and has recently, for PC purposes, been re-labeled "the n-word".

Now, let's turn this around. If someone refers to me using a demeaning term, it really is only demeaning if I allow it to be demeaning. And that's where the line is drawn. If you become agitated at the use of the "n-word", you are no different from those who choose to become agitated at a cartoon drawing of a religious figure.

Perception and reaction, folks. That's what it all comes down to. Nobody is pissed off if someone calls me a "redneck", but you can be sure if I call someone a "nigger" that I will be universally scorned.

Replace Michael Richards in this case with Chris Rock, or Eddie Murphy.....how about Richard Pryor, and replace the word "nigger" with "cracker". Nary a word would be said about it if the same situation occurred and it would be accepted as great humor. And I can't think of a single person that would expect Richard Pryor to apologize for his comments, had he said something like that. I sure wouldn't and it's because I (being white) would not choose to be offended by a comment like that, even if said directly to me.

I'm not trying to stir the pot. I'm just telling you how things look from "over here".

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: UALPHLCS
Posted 2006-11-21 17:38:13 and read 4815 times.

Quoting Queso (Reply 62):
Nary a word would be said about it if the same situation occurred and it would be accepted as great humor.

The famous Chevy Chase/Richard Pryor word association sketch on SNL comes to mind.

Chevy Chase : Spear Chucker
Richard Pryor : Honky

Chevy Chase : Porch Monkey
Richard Pryor : Honk Honky

Chevy Chase : Nigger
Richard Pryor : Dead Honky

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AAFLT1871
Posted 2006-11-21 18:12:31 and read 4789 times.

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 16):
Reminds me of "The Doors" infamous Miami concert. Alcohol. Main difference was Richards didn't get arrested.

And Richards did not whip out his dick on stage either as Morrison did

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 52):
Pulp Fiction used it in a whole different manner and didn't offend.

So when Tarentino was talking to Jackson in the kitchen over coffee going off about having a dead nigger with his head blown off in his garage, it was a different manner?

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 55):
Does anyone remember that comedian in Seattle who was being heckled by women in the crowd so he called them "C _ _ N T S"

Too many spaces if you were trying to spell Cunts

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: UALPHLCS
Posted 2006-11-21 18:43:33 and read 4760 times.

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 64):
So when Tarentino was talking to Jackson in the kitchen over coffee going off about having a dead nigger with his head blown off in his garage, it was a different manner?

"Dead Nigger Storage" is apparently OK according to NIKV69.

BTW isn't it interesting to see how the media is covering Richards' apology with the way the media covered Rush Limbaugh's comments about the media's coverage of Donovan McNabb.

[Edited 2006-11-21 18:51:44]

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AAFLT1871
Posted 2006-11-21 18:57:29 and read 4757 times.

http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=242631>1=7703

Has some interviews with other comedians to get their feedback on the incident.


From Fox 5 News D.C

Who knew you spelled Kramer with 3 K's

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: JFK69
Posted 2006-11-21 19:33:52 and read 4745 times.

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 64):
Too many spaces if you were trying to spell Cunts

My Bad....I didn't know how much I had to cover myself. I am glad I live in a country where I can use Cunts on a airliners message board. Freedom of speech rocks.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AAFLT1871
Posted 2006-11-21 21:29:39 and read 4705 times.

His apology on Letterman

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2006-11-21 21:38:40 and read 4701 times.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 37):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Answer: NO. It is socially acceptable IMO for a black man to use that word in reference to other black persons. That makes anyone using that word, and then complaining about it be directed towards them, a hypocrite . . .

Then you just don't get it.

When black people use the N-word, its co-opting that word and rendering it harmless. The use of the N-word by black folk is to take a demeaning invective and turn it into the nothing it is through context.

Its the same thing with every minority. The terms wog, fag, spic, whatever when used by the minority itself turn an offensive term upside down. When anyone else uses that term as an invective it is just that - an invective.

Just think about it. When family members make fun of one of their own, its all acceptable. But when an outsider comes in and does the same, its no longer acceptable. Anyone with half a brain would get it.

I do not concur. If blacks choose to call each other niggers or niggaz or whatever, they're fools. If I say that's fine, it is permitted, then I'm an enabler. It's a hateful word that nobody ought to use, and layering context on top of it does not sanitize it. Not to mention it's appallingly bad taste to attack someone with a value laden word such as nigger, spic, wop, fag, kike, mick, polack and so on. These words are intended to demean and belittle. Let's not legitimate them.

Now....before you jump all over me. I said upthread a little that if someone called me a cracker I'd probably not be too insulted, and my father was a Florida cracker.

The Urban dictionary says it's because the old slave driver cracked his whip.

It may well refer to the Florida cowboy/cattle herder. This from rootsweb.

http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~fcc/main/what's_a_cracker.htm

However, there's no difference of opinion as to whether "nigger" is a hateful word. There is no other way to characterize it. It really stands out in a conversation or as in Richards' case, a tirade.

As an aside, the one fellow from the audience who called Richards a fucking cracker ass or whatever showed us something important. There is not a word ever made that can hurt a white person as much as one can hurt a black person by using the word "nigger"...it's a difference not only in degree, but in kind. This word's different.

Quoting Csavel (Reply 50):
And who exactly is a Cracker anyway? I alwasy thought cCracker was specifically a white, lower class racist probably or possibly Southern, the classic In the Heat of the Night kind of guy. Sort of synonymous with "White Trash"
If someone called me a Cracker, I'd be more puzzled because I am a New York Kike, er Jew (I can say it you can't) Never occurred to me that I am in that category. Or am I? Am I a cracker?

Do you eat grits with breakfast and work outdoors and did you grow up poor in dixie? You might be a cracker.

Quoting Queso (Reply 62):
It's clear to see that there are two sides to offensive terms- those who use terms in an offensive manner and those who choose to be offended.

I've been called "gringo", "redneck", "cracker", "white bread", "white trash", etc, etc many times before and groups of people just like me have been stereotyped and referred to using those terms, but these are not perceived by large populations to be offensive. Why is that?

You are offended by what you choose to be offended by. When people hear the term "nigger", they are using that as a rallying point, nothing more. We are many generations removed now from the origin of the term but it still remains offensive because a certain ethic group has convinced the whole of society that it is morally unacceptable, effectively forcing their own idea of what is morally acceptable on everyone else. Even using the word itself in reference is looked upon as being less acceptable than outwardly using profanity in many cases, and has recently, for PC purposes, been re-labeled "the n-word".

Now, let's turn this around. If someone refers to me using a demeaning term, it really is only demeaning if I allow it to be demeaning. And that's where the line is drawn. If you become agitated at the use of the "n-word", you are no different from those who choose to become agitated at a cartoon drawing of a religious figure.

Perception and reaction, folks. That's what it all comes down to. Nobody is pissed off if someone calls me a "redneck", but you can be sure if I call someone a "nigger" that I will be universally scorned.

Replace Michael Richards in this case with Chris Rock, or Eddie Murphy.....how about Richard Pryor, and replace the word "nigger" with "cracker". Nary a word would be said about it if the same situation occurred and it would be accepted as great humor. And I can't think of a single person that would expect Richard Pryor to apologize for his comments, had he said something like that. I sure wouldn't and it's because I (being white) would not choose to be offended by a comment like that, even if said directly to me.

I'm not trying to stir the pot. I'm just telling you how things look from "over here".

Good insights.

As a point of historical information the trend with this particular word has become increased in offensiveness...back when Joseph Conrad wrote "The Nigger of the Narcissus" it didn't have that visceral punch that it has today...

We can't tolerate a double standard with the use of this word. If you do, you're enabling its perpetuation.

It'd be a good thing if one found "nigger" in a dictionary of obsolete language that said it was used by fools and idiots in an unenlightened age.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: PIA777
Posted 2006-11-21 21:59:29 and read 4690 times.

He should not be allowed to work in that town or on any show again.
What a loser. It was shocking.

PIA777

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Queso
Posted 2006-11-21 22:20:27 and read 4683 times.

Quoting PIA777 (Reply 70):
It was shocking.

No, 9/11 was shocking. The tsunami in 2004 was shocking. Kennedy's assasination might have been shocking.

The word "shocking" is highly overused, especially by the media.

Now, we can debate people's reaction to the use of the word "shocking" the same as we can debate the use of the "n-word".

Why? Why do Michael Richards' comments hold the significance to be characterized as "shocking" to PIA777? Because he allows them to and I do not. See the correlation?

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: NIKV69
Posted 2006-11-21 23:23:26 and read 4654 times.

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 64):
So when Tarentino was talking to Jackson in the kitchen over coffee going off about having a dead nigger with his head blown off in his garage, it was a different manner?

Yes, Pulp Fiction is a movie. It isn't real. What Richards did was real. He lost his temper and showed a little bit of his personality. Which if you watched the whole thing and listened to his other remarks such as the reference to lynching and his "That is what happens when you interrupt the white man" remark you can see some racial overtones. Tarentino was using the word nigger in a whole different way.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 65):
"Dead Nigger Storage" is apparently OK according to NIKV69

That part of the movie was funny but again it has nothing to do with Richards.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: KLMA330
Posted 2006-11-22 00:28:34 and read 4613 times.

I couldn't even finish watching the apology. Whatever... and this coming from one of the biggest Seinfeld fans.... Shame. Heckling isn't cool, but that was so NOT the way to handle it. Period.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AerospaceFan
Posted 2006-11-22 00:52:46 and read 4591 times.

I'm not a particular fan of the television series, Seinfeld, but I would imagine that this recent controversy wouldn't affect my enjoyment of the program if I were. The fact is that there is a difference between the actor and his character. Seinfeld was a humorous series for many reasons. Given that, I think that I could probably separate Richards from the character he played.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: 777236ER
Posted 2006-11-22 00:53:19 and read 4596 times.

I think it's telling that some people have posted in this thread simply to suggest that words can be offensive regardless of context, rather than condemning a white man calling a black man a nigger.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AerospaceFan
Posted 2006-11-22 01:04:05 and read 4587 times.

I think that part of what sealed the deal -- i.e., drew me to the conclusion that the use of the "N" word was unjustifiable in context -- was the acknowledgment by Richards himself that he was enraged when he used it. Another part was his use of historically offensive metaphors involving lynching and the submission of the black man to white masters. These things could have been outrageous enough in themselves, but the purpose for which they were used made them especially sickening.

Some hours ago, I read a blog written by a black man (and I knew he was black because he posted a picture of himself on the blog) who said that the use of the "N" word among blacks was acceptable in the same sense that a brother could use the word "idiot" to refer to a younger sibling; the use of the same word, "idiot", to refer to that same sibling by an outsider, however, could easily invoke the older sibling's anger. I think that this makes sense.

It's a more complicated question as to whether the usage of the "N" word means that Richards is a racist. Personally, I have strong doubts that Mark Fuhrman of O. J. Simpson fame was racist simply because he used that word on occasion. On the other hand, there are strong arguments that only someone who sees people by the color of their skin could so readily come up with such offensive and repeated attacks as we see occurred in the case of Richards. From his apology, however, Richards apparently thinks that the use of that word, and references to historically offensive metaphors, should not be seen as racially motivated as much as they were simply race-neutral products of his own anger. The suggestion is that when one is angry, one can use the most hurtful of words and metaphors without subscribing at all to their independent meaning or implication. Speaking personally again, I remain a bit skeptical of such an explanation.

[Edited 2006-11-22 01:19:01]

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AerospaceFan
Posted 2006-11-22 01:04:37 and read 4586 times.

[Sorry -- double post.]

[Edited 2006-11-22 01:07:22]

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Bobster2
Posted 2006-11-22 01:08:31 and read 4584 times.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 74):
Seinfeld was a humorous series for many reasons.

The irony here is that "Seinfeld" the TV series was no friend of the African-Americans. There were very few black characters. Time Magazine reported that "Seinfeld" was ranked 89th among black viewers in 1996. George paid a black person to pretend he was George's friend to impress his black boss. Elaine dated a man because she couldn't tell if he was black or white and she was curious to find out which; turned out he was white. Seinfeld made his little speech about black and white cookies being a symbol of racial harmony, saying "Look to the cookie", but where was the racial harmony on "Seinfeld"?

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AerospaceFan
Posted 2006-11-22 01:10:28 and read 4581 times.

I've seen the "it's all white" criticism leveled at Friends, as well.

These are criticisms that seem to deserve a second look when incidents such as this Richards controversy occur.

What's even more ironic, however, is that there might indeed be racial cliques of the kind depicted in both series in real life. Such social groups may be far more common than believes even in 2006. There might indeed be numerous yuppie or yuppie-wannabe types who self-segregate themselves even in cities as diverse as New York or any other major American city. I've seen defenses of Friends that hew to this belief, and that also point to the fact that there are "black sitcoms", such as some of those seen on the former UPN network that don't incur charges of racism simply because the vast majority of their characters are of one race.

[Edited 2006-11-22 01:18:01]

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Bobster2
Posted 2006-11-22 01:52:12 and read 4563 times.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 76):
The suggestion is that when one is angry, one can use the most hurtful of words and metaphors without subscribing at all to their independent meaning or implication.

Of course. It shows he has a serious problem, but we don't actually know exactly what the problem is. Could be racism, but likely he just picked words to be hurtful, and would have picked different words for a woman or Hispanic.

I believe Richards even said that the worst part wasn't captured on the video. The argument started before the video did. But I tend to believe that it wasn't about racism.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: 767Lover
Posted 2006-11-22 02:19:00 and read 4544 times.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 79):
I've seen the "it's all white" criticism leveled at Friends, as well.

The irony for me is that the only person in my circles who still faithfully watches every re-run of Friends, is, well, black.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: UALPHLCS
Posted 2006-11-22 02:21:33 and read 4551 times.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 72):
That part of the movie was funny but again it has nothing to do with Richards.

Granted the scene was funny, but it goes to show how the use of this word is very hypocritical. What Tarantino did was even worse because 1) he used it such a casual off hand way. 2) He WROTE it and PLANNED it.

Richards tirade was offensive and wrong but he was angry and wasn't thinking. Tarantino's use of it was premeditated and delivered without any anger.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 76):
From his apology, however, Richards apparently thinks that the use of that word, and references to historically offensive metaphors, should not be seen as racially motivated as much as they were simply race-neutral products of his own anger. The suggestion is that when one is angry, one can use the most hurtful of words and metaphors without subscribing at all to their independent meaning or implication. Speaking personally again, I remain a bit skeptical of such an explanation.

I couldn't agree more. That apology was weak and confusing and just about the lamest apology I've heard. John Kerry's apology was better and more sincere than that.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AerospaceFan
Posted 2006-11-22 02:23:17 and read 4545 times.

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 80):
I believe Richards even said that the worst part wasn't captured on the video. The argument started before the video did. But I tend to believe that it wasn't about racism.

The way I heard it, there were initially some black patrons who were talking amongst themselves in a way that distracted Richards from his material and made him feel as if he were treated with disrespect. It wasn't so much heckling as impoliteness that started Richards along his path to rage, according to this account.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Bobster2
Posted 2006-11-22 03:40:25 and read 4521 times.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 83):
made him feel as if he were treated with disrespect.

If you saw Letterman last night, he twice referred to Richards as "the guy who played Kramer", and didn't actually speak his name prior to the apology. You would think that Richards would be used to disrespect by now.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 82):
That apology was weak and confusing

Confusing maybe, but not weak. It took guts to admit that he felt rage and hatred. That made the apology more credible to me.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In
Username: JFK69
Posted 2006-11-22 03:44:49 and read 4508 times.

Quoting PIA777 (Reply 70):
He should not be allowed to work in that town or on any show again.
What a loser. It was shocking.

Ummm......NO. I don't think he should be blackballed for this one incident. As a jew, I could care less if Mel Gibson works again. People may boycott if they want, but the guy should still be able to earn a paycheck.

Quoting Queso (Reply 71):
No, 9/11 was shocking. The tsunami in 2004 was shocking. Kennedy's assasination might have been shocking.

The word "shocking" is highly overused, especially by the media.

Now, we can debate people's reaction to the use of the word "shocking" the same as we can debate the use of the "n-word".

Why? Why do Michael Richards' comments hold the significance to be characterized as "shocking" to PIA777? Because he allows them to and I do not. See the correlation?

 checkmark 

Why are we letting a washed up character rile us up....Do we really have this much time on our hands?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: DavestanKSAN
Posted 2006-11-22 12:24:15 and read 4441 times.

Quoting Queso (Reply 62):
You are offended by what you choose to be offended by. When people hear the term "nigger", they are using that as a rallying point, nothing more. We are many generations removed now from the origin of the term but it still remains offensive because a certain ethic group has convinced the whole of society that it is morally unacceptable, effectively forcing their own idea of what is morally acceptable on everyone else. Even using the word itself in reference is looked upon as being less acceptable than outwardly using profanity in many cases, and has recently, for PC purposes, been re-labeled "the n-word".

Hey Queso, how's it going?

I'm gunna have to strongly disagree with you here. People are offended by a white man calling a black man the N word because....well do I really have to explain? Look at the history of White people using the word against Black people. A 'certain ethnic group' did not have to convince anyone that it is offensive and morally unacceptable. Slave owners and racists have made it quite clear that it is. It's really plain and simple. A simple look back into history will show the hatred this word entails. In addition we may be several generations from the origin of the term, but the term has been used to promote hatred in this current generation. Just because a word originated many years ago does not mean it doesn't have the same hatred around it when it's said today.

Quoting Queso (Reply 62):
Perception and reaction, folks. That's what it all comes down to. Nobody is pissed off if someone calls me a "redneck", but you can be sure if I call someone a "nigger" that I will be universally scorned.

Again, because of the history of the word. White people were not made slaves and called "Rednecks."

Quoting Queso (Reply 62):
Now, let's turn this around. If someone refers to me using a demeaning term, it really is only demeaning if I allow it to be demeaning. And that's where the line is drawn. If you become agitated at the use of the "n-word", you are no different from those who choose to become agitated at a cartoon drawing of a religious figure.

Well yes, but it's not really that simple. I mean that argument can be applied to anything. Like, if someone punches me in the face, I only will be upset if I allow myself to be. So if someone punches me in the face, maybe I should stand there and think about why they did that. Was it meant in a hostile manner? Did the person intend to hurt me? Most likely the answer is yes, which provokes a response from my end. Same thing with the N word. A White person calls a Black person the N word. Did the White person mean it in a hostile manner? Did they intend to hurt the Black person they called the N word? Most likely yes. And the answer is yes because of the history of White people using it against Black people.

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 85):
Why are we letting a washed up character rile us up....Do we really have this much time on our hands?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Because it's quite sad in the year 2006 people still say things like this.

Anyway have a good night guys.

Dave

[Edited 2006-11-22 12:25:14]

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In
Username: Itsjustme
Posted 2006-11-22 13:58:28 and read 4433 times.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 79):
I've seen the "it's all white" criticism leveled at Friends, as well.

These are criticisms that seem to deserve a second look when incidents such as this Richards controversy occur.

Sorry, but I find it extremely difficult to give any credibility to "all white" criticism leveled at any show when we have networks such as BET, the STARZBLK channel, beauty pageants titled "Miss Black America" and entertainment venues such as The Apollo that feature only black entertainers.

Quoting FSPilot747 (Reply 15):
When Mel Gibson went on his drunken rant, it was "breaking news" and "headline news" and was a front page story.

Richards loses his cool and goes off by calling audience members niggers and making historical references to discrimination (in public, even) and it gets barely a mention on the networks.

Just a couple of observations. Gibson is about a bazillion times as famous as Richards is and makes great copy for the media. Also, Gibson was in the process of being arrested for a criminal act when he went off on his rant. Richards was doing a stand up routine at a small comedy club.
As far as it barely getting a mention, I have to disagree with that. Not only was it the lead story on every newscast in the LA area, but it was covered on CNN and MSNBC as well.

Bottom line, what Richards said can be summed up in 2 words: "So what"? Wow, he referred to some black hecklers as "Niggers". In a time when we have our men and women dying on a daily basis in Iraq and when some not so nice folks are developing nuclear weapons, is it really that big of a deal that some has been actor called a couple of black people "niggers"? Sure, it is despicable and yes it was absolutely wrong of him to do so and yes he obviously has some racist issues but, geez, does it really warrant the "outrage" it has caused? Accept his apology - don't accept his apology - buy the Seinfeld DVDS - don't buy them - whatever. There are truly more important things that we should be concerning ourselves with right now.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AAFLT1871
Posted 2006-11-22 16:52:06 and read 4407 times.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: JFK69
Posted 2006-11-22 18:00:19 and read 4402 times.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 87):
Bottom line, what Richards said can be summed up in 2 words: "So what"? Wow, he referred to some black hecklers as "Niggers". In a time when we have our men and women dying on a daily basis in Iraq and when some not so nice folks are developing nuclear weapons, is it really that big of a deal that some has been actor called a couple of black people "niggers"? Sure, it is despicable and yes it was absolutely wrong of him to do so and yes he obviously has some racist issues but, geez, does it really warrant the "outrage" it has caused? Accept his apology - don't accept his apology - buy the Seinfeld DVDS - don't buy them - whatever. There are truly more important things that we should be concerning ourselves with right now.

DING DING DING!!!!!!

A man who gets it. Welcome to my RU list sir.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2006-11-22 18:07:00 and read 4391 times.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 83):
The way I heard it, there were initially some black patrons who were talking amongst themselves in a way that distracted Richards from his material and made him feel as if he were treated with disrespect. It wasn't so much heckling as impoliteness that started Richards along his path to rage, according to this account.

What standup comic has not been heckled by rowdy patrons in a venue? That's part of the landscape. He lost it badly.

I'm in mind of one time I was walking across campus at Long Beach State and I saw a group of orientals-young men, Vietnamese or Cambodians perhaps talking and calling each other "nigga".....I was bemused....it seemed so odd.

The takehome?

There's a dialogue going on about the use of the terms "nigger" and it's derivatives "nigga" and "niggaz", and whether anyone is or should be permitted to use these words in public without censure. It is a good thing that this is talked about, if only for the benefit of people who need to take a good look at language.

There's clearly a double standard here. For a white person to call a black a nigger is the kiss of death-it has the stink of decomposition all over it-it is taboo. On the other hand if blacks call each other nigger or nigga or niggaz (plural) it seems to pass with a nudge nudge wink wink boys will be boys and so on. We even have rap groups like NWA....it's a common part of the lexicon in rap.

My opinion? They cheapen themselves and they're fools if they choose to use.

There's also an element of silliness and political correctness in calling it the "N-word". Let's say what we're talking about. Air out the dirty laundry, in other words. A sunshine policy.

But, having said all this, when the dialog's done, let's hope the term falls into disuse and some time in the future people with an interest in arcane language will scratch their heads and say "What COULD those folks back in the 21st century have been thinking about?"

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: PIA777
Posted 2006-11-22 19:10:36 and read 4370 times.

His apology was BS. You just can't apologize for something like that. He said
it and he ment it. He needs to pack up his bags and find another line of work. I think the KKK is looking for new members.

PIA777

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: NIKV69
Posted 2006-11-22 20:26:19 and read 4340 times.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 82):
Richards tirade was offensive and wrong but he was angry and wasn't thinking. Tarantino's use of it was premeditated and delivered without any anger.

Richard's outburst showed a deep down racial feeling toward blacks my friend. You are trying to tell me that since he was mad that those words were coming out of his mouth he wasn't aware of them? Please. He got caught with his hand in the cookie jar, his apology was a fake as Jerry Seinfeld sitting there on letterman trying to stick up for him. Give me a break. Tarentino wrote a script for a movie it's not even close.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 87):
In a time when we have our men and women dying on a daily basis in Iraq and when some not so nice folks are developing nuclear weapons

Jesus can we stop with the Iraq propaganda? Let em get this straight. Since there is a war going on and people (both military and civilian) are dying someone in the US here can spew racial comments and it's no big thing? What planet are you from?  confused 

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2006-11-22 20:35:22 and read 4337 times.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 92):
Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 82):
Richards tirade was offensive and wrong but he was angry and wasn't thinking. Tarantino's use of it was premeditated and delivered without any anger.

Richard's outburst showed a deep down racial feeling toward blacks my friend. You are trying to tell me that since he was mad that those words were coming out of his mouth he wasn't aware of them? Please. He got caught with his hand in the cookie jar, his apology was a fake as Jerry Seinfeld sitting there on letterman trying to stick up for him. Give me a break. Tarentino wrote a script for a movie it's not even close.

Dude, if you're going to slag someone at least take the entire quote-taking a line or two out of context and then making a big stink out of it is lame.

Here's the entire deal:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 82):
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 72):
That part of the movie was funny but again it has nothing to do with Richards.

Granted the scene was funny, but it goes to show how the use of this word is very hypocritical. What Tarantino did was even worse because 1) he used it such a casual off hand way. 2) He WROTE it and PLANNED it.

Richards tirade was offensive and wrong but he was angry and wasn't thinking. Tarantino's use of it was premeditated and delivered without any anger.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 76):
From his apology, however, Richards apparently thinks that the use of that word, and references to historically offensive metaphors, should not be seen as racially motivated as much as they were simply race-neutral products of his own anger. The suggestion is that when one is angry, one can use the most hurtful of words and metaphors without subscribing at all to their independent meaning or implication. Speaking personally again, I remain a bit skeptical of such an explanation.

I couldn't agree more. That apology was weak and confusing and just about the lamest apology I've heard. John Kerry's apology was better and more sincere than that.

That looks a lot different to me.

You did it again.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 92):
Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 87):
In a time when we have our men and women dying on a daily basis in Iraq and when some not so nice folks are developing nuclear weapons

Jesus can we stop with the Iraq propaganda? Let em get this straight. Since there is a war going on and people (both military and civilian) are dying someone in the US here can spew racial comments and it's no big thing? What planet are you from?

Here's the entire quote.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 87):
Bottom line, what Richards said can be summed up in 2 words: "So what"? Wow, he referred to some black hecklers as "Niggers". In a time when we have our men and women dying on a daily basis in Iraq and when some not so nice folks are developing nuclear weapons, is it really that big of a deal that some has been actor called a couple of black people "niggers"? Sure, it is despicable and yes it was absolutely wrong of him to do so and yes he obviously has some racist issues but, geez, does it really warrant the "outrage" it has caused? Accept his apology - don't accept his apology - buy the Seinfeld DVDS - don't buy them - whatever. There are truly more important things that we should be concerning ourselves with right now.

there's plenty to get pissed off about without taking things out of context.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: NIKV69
Posted 2006-11-22 20:54:07 and read 4333 times.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 93):
there's plenty to get pissed off about without taking things out of context.

It's taken perfectly in context. First off I don't agree with the outrage either but that is the media and they do that with everything. As far as Richards goes. His career is in the toilet and has been long before this but if he has saved a quarter of his Seinfeld money he is set. I just don't agree with the more important issue crap and I don't agree with using the war in Iraq to make light of anything. Yes I know the war is very important but it doesn't affect issues here.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: FSPilot747
Posted 2006-11-22 21:33:06 and read 4316 times.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=U3RjiVcIlhY>

They didn't call him a cracker ass first. He went off on them, THEN they called him a cracker ass after being called nigger 10 times.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In
Username: Itsjustme
Posted 2006-11-23 00:12:42 and read 4247 times.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 94):
I just don't agree with the more important issue crap and I don't agree with using the war in Iraq to make light of anything.

You apparently missed my point. First off, I was not making "light" of anything. Perhaps you should look up the meaning of words like "despicable" and phrases like, "absolutely wrong" (which is how I characterized Richards' outburst) before accusing me of making light of anything.
My point, which maybe I didn't make clear enough, is we have bigger problems right now than some has-been actor hurling racial slurs at some audience members during a comedy routine. Again, it was undeniably wrong of him to do so. He's been appropriately denounced and now the "victims" of his verbal onslaught are apparently making the talk show circuit as they appeared with their attorney, Gloria Allred on "Today" with Matt Lauer. And my day wouldn't have been complete without seeing the Rev. Al Shaprton in an outrage over it as well. Dwelling on it serves no purpose. It's time to get back to being concerned with and addressing the real problems we are facing. And, like it or not, the war in Iraq is one of the real problems we are facing.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: A346Dude
Posted 2006-11-23 00:13:59 and read 4247 times.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 97):
So you're suggesting white people are smarter than black people?

 banghead 

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2006-11-23 03:50:05 and read 4216 times.

What is interesting is that a number of true stand-up comedians (George Lopez among them) who've seen Michael Richards' tirade said it demonstrates that Richards shouldn't be doing stand-up comedy in the first place, because Richards acted very poorly after the heckling.

A true master stand-up comedian can turn that heckling into a major advantage for the comedian, if you've seen performance by the likes of the late Sam Kinison or more recent stars like Chris Rock. t

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Lucky42
Posted 2006-11-23 05:37:44 and read 4180 times.

Look I might agree that Micheal Richards might not be the right candidate for a stand up career...He got pissed and made a mistake and apologized for it. Now it seems the hecklers have retained famed feminist lawyer Gloria Allred to represent them. Of course they are playing the traumatized victims of Richards tirade and are looking for a payout. But my opinion is that the hecklers brought it on themselves. They spewed bullshit to upset Richards and he did the same to them case closed. What Richards did was wrong but what they did wasn't right either......

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: UALPHLCS
Posted 2006-11-23 06:14:28 and read 4161 times.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 92):
Richard's outburst showed a deep down racial feeling toward blacks my friend. You are trying to tell me that since he was mad that those words were coming out of his mouth he wasn't aware of them? Please. He got caught with his hand in the cookie jar, his apology was a fake as Jerry Seinfeld sitting there on letterman trying to stick up for him. Give me a break. Tarentino wrote a script for a movie it's not even close.

Did you even READ what I wrote?

First off I've been down on Richard's and his comments from the very beginning. My point in bringing Tarantino into the conversation was to point out the hypocrisy in the use of the word.

If we are going OT get rid of this word from use it has o be eliminated from society's daily vocabulary. Casual use by Black Comedians, and especially from "approved" white people like Quentin Tarantino are never going to make that word acceptable.

Now let me ask you, which is worse, the angry unthinking use of an offensive word, or the premeditated, planned writing of a script using that same word?

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: SESGDL
Posted 2006-11-23 07:26:37 and read 4131 times.

Quoting Lucky42 (Reply 103):
Look I might agree that Micheal Richards might not be the right candidate for a stand up career...He got pissed and made a mistake and apologized for it. Now it seems the hecklers have retained famed feminist lawyer Gloria Allred to represent them. Of course they are playing the traumatized victims of Richards tirade and are looking for a payout. But my opinion is that the hecklers brought it on themselves. They spewed bullshit to upset Richards and he did the same to them case closed. What Richards did was wrong but what they did wasn't right either......

I disagree completely. I'm going to use one of my terrible analogies, but if I laugh at someone when they're giving a formal speech they're allowed to punch me or assault me or verbally abuse me? No. While it's wrong to heckle someone doing standup, calling them the most offensive word that can be used is outrageous. Calling someone an asshole and calling them a nigger are entirely different things. I can't believe someone would try to blame it on the men in the audience who didn't use any kind of racial terminology. You're dead wrong.

Jeremy

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In
Username: 767Lover
Posted 2006-11-23 17:00:02 and read 4086 times.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 108):
Intelligence has little to do with race and all to do with education and wealth.

I wouldn't say intelligence is gained by wealth. Knowledge perhaps can be aligned to wealth--because of access to information--but certainly not intelligence.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Seb146
Posted 2006-11-23 18:47:39 and read 4063 times.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Let me ask a question: If the comic using the "N" word had been a black man or woman, would there be an uproar?

What makes it OK for someone of color to use that word - repeatedly - in their 'comedy' routines, but as soon as a white man says it, it makes National News?

Hypocrites anyone?

I find a black person calling me "cracker" is just as offinsive as me calling a black person "nigger." But, when black people call me "cracker" it is funny and I have no recourse. But, if I call a black person "nigger" I will get beat up and sued. Don't dish it out if you can't take it.

My other point would be: Richards will make a contribution to NAACP or some similar group and all will be forgiven. If Joe Schmoe would have said all that stuff, he would be in jail nursing his wounds or worse. Just because he is a former celeb he gets better treatment? How wrong is that?

GO CANUCKS!!

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Cptkrell
Posted 2006-11-23 19:00:40 and read 4054 times.

While I agree that "Kramer's" obviously mentally incapacitated tirad is pretty damn offensive, what, pray-tell, could the 'victims' possibly sue him for??

If their complaints take up even ten minutes of court time, then that's just as offensive in the larger scheme of things. Any lawyer that would take on the "case" is just as mentaly incapacitated as Richards (unless, of course, he actually issued a threat, which I did not hear and I believe I heard all the uncut, unbleeped "show"). Regards...jack

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2006-11-24 01:26:10 and read 4000 times.

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 20):
Whats funny is that those people who were heckling him were no better, they turned around and called him a cracker.

What's wrong with CRACKER?

There's a painting at SRQ titled "Aching Cracker"

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: JFK69
Posted 2006-11-24 02:41:28 and read 3983 times.

Maybe they could hire Jackie Childs...Kramer should recommend him.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Tsaord
Posted 2006-11-24 03:20:08 and read 3977 times.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 4):
They were being assholes and he called them on it. You don't go to a comedy club and heckle the comedian. That's not the place for you to voice your opinion. You go there, listen and leave. If you don't like what's going on get up and leave

Jesus.

But just about all the time a white person called a black person the N word they used it in a deameaning way. Some black people believe the word "Nigga" Nicca" is not the same as Nigger!

Yes most black comedians use it during their shows but never in a deameaing way. I dont like the word or any variant of it.

here is an example http://www.swacfans.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24057

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Tsaord
Posted 2006-11-24 03:37:03 and read 3974 times.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 39):
For blacks to criticize their own is different from when any outsider does it, and particularly when the outsider does it in anger as if the use of the vilest of language, and the most horrific of metaphors, is in any way justified in an attempt to vent and, apparently, to injure. No one has the moral right to use such words except one who lives with the hurt that it inflicts. The fact that someone like Richards has the legal right to say what he did, does not in any way mean that it was right to do so.

Hit the nail on the head

But didn't the guy in the video say called richards a cracker after the fact they were called niggers? didnt he say something like how would you like it if i called you a cracker? i need to watch the video again.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2006-11-24 04:25:43 and read 3949 times.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 94):
It's taken perfectly in context. First off I don't agree with the outrage either but that is the media and they do that with everything. As far as Richards goes. His career is in the toilet and has been long before this but if he has saved a quarter of his Seinfeld money he is set. I just don't agree with the more important issue crap and I don't agree with using the war in Iraq to make light of anything. Yes I know the war is very important but it doesn't affect issues here.

No it isn't.
You snip pieces out of what other people have posted, take them out of context and use them as straw men for your arguments, and that's kind of hokey-they weren't even really disagreeing with what you said.. This has nothing to do with Richards. As you say if his career was not in the toilet it is now...at least for a while until the moral outrage blows over and we go back to enabling people by implying a certain sort of moral relativity that does nopt, in fact, exist.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Lucky42
Posted 2006-11-24 04:48:32 and read 3947 times.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 101):
No. While it's wrong to heckle someone doing standup, calling them the most offensive word that can be used is outrageous.

Sorry but the blacks have overplayed this to death....If this particular word was so offensive to them they wouldn't throw it around themselves to each other...so blatantly.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: SESGDL
Posted 2006-11-24 06:04:44 and read 3925 times.

Quoting Lucky42 (Reply 110):
Sorry but the blacks have overplayed this to death....If this particular word was so offensive to them they wouldn't throw it around themselves to each other...so blatantly.

It not the same when black people say it to eachother. I'm black, don't use the word, and my friends don't either. I wouldn't like it if they did, but if they called me "nigga" or even if my white friends said it to me it's not as offensive as some random comedian going on a tirade a calling me a "nigger." These are not even remotely the same. What do people not understand about that? I don't like that anyone uses the word, but calling someone a nigger in a offensive way is uncalled for.

Jeremy

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AAFLT1871
Posted 2006-11-24 17:33:41 and read 3878 times.

Richards hires ‘crisis management’ expert


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15859121/

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: AAFLT1871
Posted 2006-11-30 05:57:24 and read 3783 times.

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 55):
Does anyone remember that comedian in Seattle who was being heckled by women in the crowd so he called them




Now Kramers rap video, you knew it was coming

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Dan2002
Posted 2006-11-30 23:12:27 and read 3741 times.

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 113):

That was one of the funniest parodies I have ever seen.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Jetjack74
Posted 2006-12-01 03:13:40 and read 3718 times.

Gloria Allred is now representing one of the people that Richards called the N-word. He's suing Mr Richards for over 10 million in damages. Pardon the Scott-Trade intro.
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player...Your%20World&-1&Business&280&&&new

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Queso
Posted 2006-12-01 03:24:06 and read 3718 times.

T-shirt Hell's newest offering:

www.tshirthell.com

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA
Username: Mika
Posted 2006-12-01 09:43:02 and read 3673 times.

In Sweden this probably would have been a very legitimate case, insulting or discriminating people because of their ethnicity is illegal here. And i'm very glad about that.



I think that this dude needs some time off and a reality check, what he did was nothing but extremely stupid and as the dude in the audience says; very uncalled for.

Topic: RE: Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In
Username: Itsjustme
Posted 2006-12-01 13:23:39 and read 3663 times.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 101):
While it's wrong to heckle someone doing standup, calling them the most offensive word that can be used is outrageous.

The most offensive word to whom? You? Personally, I find the word cunt to be a lot more offensive than nigger.

As for Richards - he just needs to shut the hell up. He's gone on national TV and apologized and he's had a sit down with Rev. Jackson. What's next, the "Richards Farewell Apology Tour"? It's obvious the only people interested in keeping this story alive are a few select black folks. Oh, and Ms. Allred, too, but her interests are purely financial. It's time to move on boys and girls.


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/