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Topic: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: FlyUSCG
Posted 2007-03-07 08:20:29 and read 2954 times.

Maybe some of you have heard this and maybe some of you haven't. I just got it in an e-mail from my uncle and agree 100%. I also checked online to verify it's authenticity and it checks out. I'm very interested to see any arguments against this...

Quote:

I HAVE A PLAN TO DESTROY AMERICA
RICHARD D. LAMM

I have a secret plan to destroy America. If you believe, as many do, that America is too smug, too white bread, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that hard to do. History shows that nations are more fragile than their citizens think. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and they all fall, and that 'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.' Here is my plan:

I. We must first make America a bilingual-bicultural country. History shows, in my opinion, that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. One scholar, Seymour Martin Lipset, put it this way:

The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy. Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans.
II. I would then invent 'multiculturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal: that there are no cultural differences that are important. I would declare it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rate is only due to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out-of-bounds.

III. We can make the United States a 'Hispanic Quebec' without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarx said in the Atlantic Monthly recently:
... The apparent success of our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved! Not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentrically and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together.
I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with a salad bowl metaphor. It is important to insure that we have various cultural sub-groups living in America reinforcing their differences, rather than as Americans emphasizing their similarities.

IV. Having done all this, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated - I would add a second underclass: unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% drop out rate from school.

V. I would then get the big foundations and big business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology'. I would get all minorities to think their lack of success was the fault of the majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population.

VI. I would establish dual citizenship and promote divided loyalties. I would 'celebrate diversity'. 'Diversity' is a wonderfully seductive word. It stresses differences rather than commonalities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other - that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together, and we can take advantage of this myopia. Look at the ancient Greeks. Dorf's World History tells us:
The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshiped the same gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic Games in honor of Zeus and all Greeks venerated the shrine of Apollo at Delphi. A common enemy Persia threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to over come two factors: . . . (local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions . . .)
'E. Pluribus Unum' --- From many, one. In that historical reality, if we can put the emphasis on the 'pluribus' instead of the 'Unum,' we can balkanize America as surely as Kosovo.

VII. Then I would place all these subjects off limits - make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity'. I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'xenophobe' that halts argument and conversation.

Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra - that because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant sympatric and ignore the cumulative impact.

VIII. Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson Davis's book Mexifornia. --- This book is dangerous --- It exposes my plan to destroy America. So please, please --- If you feel that America deserves to be destroyed --- Please, please --- Don't buy this book! This guy is on to my plan.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/lamm.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lamm (speech is discussed in "activities" section)

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: San747
Posted 2007-03-07 08:27:32 and read 2945 times.

As liberal as I am, I live in Southern California, and it can't be denied that what is stated in that email you got is too true. We have to be careful... Legal immigration is great- my best friend is a legal immigrant from Guatemala. He is fluent in English, totally assimillated into American culture, and considers himself an American. He loves his native culture, but limits its affect on his daily life now that he's here.

That is the ideal situation for immigration, in my opinion. What's going on with illegal immigration are a bunch of people coming over here for "jobs we won't do" and having no loyalty to the country, no civic responsibilities, and sending benefits back to Mexico, which more than encourages the whole she-bang.

That needs to change, or America as we know it will cease to exist...

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: NWA742
Posted 2007-03-07 08:33:46 and read 2930 times.

It's scary how the majority of Americans seem to not have the slightest idea of much we are destroying ourselves from the inside. Either this country is going to fail because of this, or we're going to get a hell of wake-up call hopefully in time to rebound. Political correctness is one of the most harmful acids eating at us - we're now refusing to uphold our own laws and ways of life out of bullshit fear of offending people. It makes me sick.

It seems none of our major political parties are going to do anything about it either - why? Because they are POLITICIANS. That's really all it's coming to now. They're out to get votes, not to solve problems.

If we don't change - we fail, and sooner than you may think. <---- mark those words.



-NWA742

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2007-03-07 08:36:51 and read 2921 times.

It seems former Gov. Lamm, is taking the blame game a bit too far. In the wikipedia article you linked it says:

"In July 2006 Dick Lamm said that many Blacks and Hispanics had formed an underclass whose cultures were "not success-producing" in the midst of a national immigration debate that is especially strong in Colorado."

The thread I read through just before this one was:

Last One In Michigan, Plz Turn Out The Lights! (by Dtwclipper Mar 6 2007 in Non Aviation)

You could easily replace "union workers" for "Blacks and Hispanics" and "outsourcing debate" for "immigration debate", and arrive at the same conclusions about an underclass destroying America. While immigration and assimilation are important aspects of U.S. history, I don't believe it should be used as the scapegoat for our problems, without looking at other factors as well.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Bill142
Posted 2007-03-07 08:36:53 and read 2921 times.

Well you can preach all you want Mr Lamm, but until get into a position of power, your not so secret plan will be nothing. Something else for the rest of us to go "awww geez. not this shit again". In the mean time, lay off the crack.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2007-03-07 08:40:14 and read 2905 times.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 4):
Well you can preach all you want Mr Lamm, but until get into a position of power, your not so secret plan will be nothing.

He was in power at one time, as the governor of Colorado. If you read his speech carefully, it's a parody of sorts, outlining some of the problems we face, and usurping them as "his plan".

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: San747
Posted 2007-03-07 08:40:19 and read 2905 times.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 2):
It's scary how the majority of Americans seem to not have the slightest idea of much we are destroying ourselves from the inside.

Apathy is a dangerous thing, and people seem either not to know or not care about the negative direction the country is heading. Especially older Americans, who figure they'll be dead by the time this "supposed change" will come about, so why should they care?

Well, I'm a young American, who probably has at least 60 more years to live, and I'm the one who's gonna get screwed over by all this! Sometimes, when I'm on myspace or whatever, I think to myself, why isn't anyone doing anything or at least saying anything to try and right the wrongs of this country?

Are we too obsessed with "American Idol" and "Dancing with the Stars" to care anymore? I always thought George Carlin was just exagerrating for humor when he said "we use television and sports in this country to distract people from how bad they're being f---ed..." But I'm really starting to think he has a point... Where is the outcry to all this? There is none, because its easier for people to ignore it, especially if they feel it doesn't affect their daily lives.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: NWA742
Posted 2007-03-07 08:40:55 and read 2903 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
You could easily replace "union workers" for "Blacks and Hispanics" and "outsourcing debate" for "immigration debate", and arrive at the same conclusions about an underclass destroying America.

Why not blame both?



-NWA742

[Edited 2007-03-07 08:41:18]

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: FlyUSCG
Posted 2007-03-07 08:41:31 and read 2903 times.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 4):
Well you can preach all you want Mr Lamm, but until get into a position of power, your not so secret plan will be nothing. Something else for the rest of us to go "awww geez. not this shit again". In the mean time, lay off the crack.

Read the links at the bottom. He was one of Colorado's most popular Governonrs serving 3 terms from 1975-1987 and also made an attempt at the oval office. So the problem wasn't AS bad during his term but it's obviously gotten out of hand by now (when he made the speech).

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: NWA742
Posted 2007-03-07 08:43:20 and read 2897 times.

Quoting San747 (Reply 6):
Where is the outcry to all this? There is none, because its easier for people to ignore it, especially if they feel it doesn't affect their daily lives.

Very true. That's why people need a kick in the ass and slap in the face. At this point in time, I'd take a military general, ex-drill instructor leading this country over any politician with their typical self-serving agendas.



-NWA742

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2007-03-07 08:43:37 and read 2897 times.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 7):
Why not blame both?

Why not address our problems without assigning blame to those only partially responsible?

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: NWA742
Posted 2007-03-07 08:49:57 and read 2880 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):
Why not address our problems without assigning blame to those only partially responsible?

I don't think it really matters whether they're "only" partially responsible - part of the initial process in solving big problems like these is putting blame where it needs to be, and that goes for everyone. That in turn, applies pressure to improve. Let's not ignore anyone simply because they may be "only" a part of the overall problem.




-NWA742

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2007-03-07 08:54:58 and read 2864 times.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 11):
Let's not ignore anyone simply because they may be "only" a part of the overall problem.

In essence, I agree, but only if everyone who contributes to the problem receives their fair share. It seems to me that he's putting the responsibility for the "death of America" squarely on the shoulders of Blacks and Hispanics, which I don't believe would address all our problems. As I eluded to before, union workers could be held just as responsible for the blame he assigned to minority groups, so emphasizing the flaws as he does would be inappropriate.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: NWA742
Posted 2007-03-07 08:58:30 and read 2857 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):
It seems to me that he's putting the responsibility for the "death of America" squarely on the shoulders of Blacks and Hispanics, which I don't believe would address all our problems.

I agree - he raises good points, but he does push the blame a little too much.



-NWA742

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: DavestanKSAN
Posted 2007-03-07 09:03:09 and read 2846 times.

Hmm. Sounds like a white guy afraid of change.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):

 checkmark 

Dave

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: NWA742
Posted 2007-03-07 09:11:26 and read 2838 times.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 14):
Hmm. Sounds like a white guy afraid of change.

Or rather - afraid of people that think the way this country is changing is good.



-NWA742

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: DavestanKSAN
Posted 2007-03-07 09:57:54 and read 2816 times.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 15):
Or rather - afraid of people that think the way this country is changing is good.

Haha, yeah that too.

More of what I'm getting at is that diversity should be welcomed. Yes, first people need to realize they are American and realize the values that this country were founded upon. It's time to put our petty differences aside as a nation and work together to progress our country so that it can function at its optimum capabilities. But people shouldn't forget about their culture because that would be, in essence, forgetting history. What I find dangerous about the line of thinking suggested by Gov. Lamm is that it can lead to stereotyping, prejudice, and hatred.

IMO the problem with our country is that we have lost a common denominator. There aren't many, for lack of a better word, voices of reason in mainstream media outlets. There is little source of inspiration. Who do kids have to look up to these days? The problem is a lot of people don't have a role model that they attain inspiration from. It's not cool to want to do well and be a Doctor or teacher. Most kids want to be professional athletes, music stars, actors, etc. Not to say kids shouldn't follow their dreams, but maybe if they had different influences they would have different dreams. Charles Barkley gained a lot of criticism for saying that he wasn't a role model, but he was spot on.

Think about it for a second. If you're a kid growing up in poverty, and or if your family is not there for you, what does the future look like? There's no emphasis on programs for kids like this that will teach them how to reach their full potential. Society writes them off already before most of them get a chance to show the world they can be successful. There's no one man or woman broadcasting their situation to every home in suburbia America so that before you go to work in the morning, and when you come home at night, you will think of a kid whose life in society's eyes is over before it began.

This can be applied to young adults, and adults as well. America is the land of opportunity, but if we don't realise everyone is created equal then a great opportunity for one could be a minor detail for many.

Dave

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: VonRichtofen
Posted 2007-03-07 10:12:14 and read 2809 times.

Wow talk about paranoid. Becoming bilingual will destroy the US hahaahahah. Well, keep on with your isolationist, parnoid views while the rest of the world leaves you in the dust.


Kris

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: TheCol
Posted 2007-03-07 10:45:59 and read 2792 times.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 17):
Wow talk about paranoid. Becoming bilingual will destroy the US hahaahahah. Well, keep on with your isolationist, parnoid views while the rest of the world leaves you in the dust.

Yeah, and we're really doing well with it up here.  sarcastic 

Bilingualism can be a good thing, however there is a fine line and we have already crossed it. Nobody has to look any farther than Quebec. Of course, it doesn't stop there.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: OzGlobal
Posted 2007-03-07 14:10:25 and read 2747 times.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Thread starter):
France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans.

A good test of the authority of a text is to check the facts on something you know a little about. This statement tha France faces difficulties with Brittany, Basque country and Corsica on the basis of language is ignorant nonsense. France brutally crushed regional languages in most areas at the turn of the previous century. Virtually no-one speaks Breton today. Spain, not France, has problems with the Basque country and only 11% of Corsicans support separatist movements.

If this guy is so wrong on some of his supporting arguments and doesn't seem to care, why heed to the rest of his rant?

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: LHMARK
Posted 2007-03-07 14:27:37 and read 2736 times.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Thread starter):
Having done all this, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated - I would add a second underclass: unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% drop out rate from school.

Show me a country where this hasn't been the case? Hell, this is repeated on a macro scale by the whole third world.

News flash: It will ALWAYS be easier for people to make babies than it will be for a societal infrastructure to educate them. It is a fact of population distribution, not a harbringer of the impending end of the USA.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2007-03-07 14:43:54 and read 2722 times.

Lamm was the same guy who it was alleged said a number of years ago that old people 'had a duty to die' so not to overload the social security, medicare and other costs to government of old people. From that time, he is seen as a unacceptable nutcase. The comments alleged to him in the initial post are to me something like the kind of things Hitler and those around him supported, although with people in their area of the world. These comments of Lamm are far too accepted by too many Americans, looking for blame for their problems.
Yes, we need to deal better with assimilating people, but I would rather have the diversity we have today, rather than the narrow communities, neighborhoods and prejudices we had for generations. I do agree we need to deal better with the issues of 'Victimology', of groups always blaming others for their problems. We need to find ways to reduce the exploitation of illegal immigrants as well as deal with the reasons people come here illegally from their home countries. We may all have to face the reality that we all can't live beyond our means or exploit people or ship jobs outside the USA just to make more money. We need to break the bonds of the rich have with our politicians where they can get their ways instead of the common good.
Comments like Mr. Lamm's just add more fuel to the fire of hate of others and delays the resolution of them. Indeed they create more of the division he rants against.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: TedTAce
Posted 2007-03-07 14:56:41 and read 2714 times.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 2):
It's scary how the majority of Americans seem to not have the slightest idea of much we are destroying ourselves from the inside

Having two parties squabble over who got convicted for what last doesn't help. They have both done an excellent job of making Americans forget what government is all about while they line their pockets with million dollar speech fees and $10,000/plate dinners. They make up debates about political correctness and deny that common sense should exist. I have been calling for an American revolution for over 2 years, even if my interests "loose" it would be nice to see a responsible corruption free government managing REAL problems instead of squabbling about {redflag.}

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Aloges
Posted 2007-03-07 15:07:06 and read 2707 times.

So the blame is on the shoulders of blacks, hispanics and union workers? Yeah riiight...  sarcastic 

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 19):
Spain, not France, has problems with the Basque country

Not to mention that Spain actually is a multi-lingual country yet still its existance isn't threatened. Castilian, Catalan, Galician are all very different, and then of course there's Basque which doesn't even belong to the same family of languages.

Most European countries boast a variety of languages or at least dialects, yet we face little separatism and support for the few movements we have is little. ETA for example is protested against every so often in huge gatherings.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 19):
If this guy is so wrong on some of his supporting arguments and doesn't seem to care, why heed to the rest of his rant?

 checkmark  "Fearmongering" would be a valid description of that text.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2007-03-07 15:21:09 and read 2687 times.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 23):
Most European countries boast a variety of languages or at least dialects, yet we face little separatism and support for the few movements we have is little. ETA for example is protested against every so often in huge gatherings.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 19):
If this guy is so wrong on some of his supporting arguments and doesn't seem to care, why heed to the rest of his rant?

"Fearmongering" would be a valid description of that text.

Buncha whiners....why let a little thing like the facts get in the way of a good psychotic rant?

Maybe Lamm can get a good deal on Tom Egleton's electroshock machine at the estate sale. I'll contribute some army surplus Thorazine.




 laughing   laughing   laughing 

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: ShyFlyer
Posted 2007-03-07 18:58:29 and read 2599 times.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 9):
ex-drill instructor leading this country

 checkmark 

GySgt R. Lee Ermey, USMC (Ret.)

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: LHMARK
Posted 2007-03-07 19:25:25 and read 2630 times.

Last I checked, Switzerland was a multilingual society. They seem to be doing OK.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Blackbird
Posted 2007-03-07 19:42:45 and read 2617 times.

The sad part is that much of what is said in the post is true.

We have forgot about the melting pot philosophy, and have embraced the salad-bowl. There are places in the US where signs are written in two languages. There are classes in schools that teach English as a SECOND Language for Godssake! Legal-immegration is so hard a process that most American's couldn't even pass the immigration tests if they tried, so immigrants who want to come here (some with good intentions who really want to become Americans, some who just want jobs and a nice place to live, but have no true loyalty to this country) come in illegally, and our government supports it because they'll do the jobs we won't.

We've stopped thinking of ourselves in the nationalistic way we used to see ourselves. Treaties like NAFTA for example have done little help to provide nationalistic feelings, essentially the plan is to merge the US, Canada, and Mexico into the North American Union. We will lose many of our sovereign rights, and some people in the North American Union, whom the power lies within, are unelected people. Virtually nothing will stop this "merger" between us and Canada and Mexico. To be a signatory of the NAU, we will have to comply with certain regulations and rules, which means some of our laws will have to be changed, not because they benefit us any better necessarily, but to comply with the NAU. Since we have become less nationalistic, we've also become far bigger on outsourcing-- after all if it's not about nationalism, why the hell are we hiring Americans for a higher price when we can hire Mexicans, and Indians and such who will do the same job cheaper?

A society of political correctness has made almost any form of dicussion on the topic difficult at best. You can be sued for saying something politically incorrect, fired from your job, ostracized. Freedom of speach and expression-- our most SACRED of rights have essentially been made to take a back seat to avoiding offending people, even when telling the truth and doing the right thing necessitates it. Without discussion and thought on the issue, it is virtually unfixable.

Then there is the uninspired apathy which has crept upon our country. We don't have a nationalistic sense we did, we don't have the same sense of purpose we used to. Our government now operates less and less around the general will of the people, which as a republic (a democracy is where we all as a whole vote, and select our leaders... a republic is where you vote for the leaders, and vote in representatives who vote in your behalf-- a congressman or senator) is vital. With this administration, our government has taken away more and more of our civil liberties. People feel powerless as a whole.

I think this is a serious problem, and quite nicely segue with my objections to political correctness. I hope many of our societal problems will be remedied some day. Despite how I may appear, I advocate peacefully handling this matter. I don't want any violence.

My name is Andrea Kent, I am of multiple ethnicities Slavic, Mediterranean, German, but despite all of these things, I think of myself as an American citizen above these all.

I do hope I do not offend anybody, but I probably will inevitably do so. For those I do offend, I do not apologize (although I do regret offending them)

Andrea K
BTW: Should I die in a mysterious or suspicious manner (like a heart-attack: I'm in excellent physical condition), commit suicide, vanish without a trace, or end up arrested on some kind of trumped-up charges, you know who to blame. (This is also a personal quote)

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: LHMARK
Posted 2007-03-07 20:11:52 and read 2578 times.

Hey Andrea, where are you getting some of these ideas?

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 27):
We have forgot about the melting pot philosophy, and have embraced the salad-bowl. There are places in the US where signs are written in two languages. There are classes in schools that teach English as a SECOND Language for Godssake! Legal-immegration is so hard a process that most American's couldn't even pass the immigration tests if they tried, so immigrants who want to come here (some with good intentions who really want to become Americans, some who just want jobs and a nice place to live, but have no true loyalty to this country) come in illegally, and our government supports it because they'll do the jobs we won't.

Here are some sample questions:

Current USCIS Test Questions
(Click on the question to see the answer.)

1. What are the colors of our flag?

2. How many stars are there in our flag?

3. What color are the stars on our flag?

4. What do the stars on the flag mean?

5. How many stripes are there in the flag?

6. What color are the stripes?

7. What do the stripes on the flag mean?

8. How many states are there in the Union?

9. What is the 4th of July?

10. What is the date of Independence Day?

More can be found here.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 27):
We've stopped thinking of ourselves in the nationalistic way we used to see ourselves. Treaties like NAFTA for example have done little help to provide nationalistic feelings, essentially the plan is to merge the US, Canada, and Mexico into the North American Union. We will lose many of our sovereign rights, and some people in the North American Union, whom the power lies within, are unelected people. Virtually nothing will stop this "merger" between us and Canada and Mexico. To be a signatory of the NAU, we will have to comply with certain regulations and rules, which means some of our laws will have to be changed, not because they benefit us any better necessarily, but to comply with the NAU. Since we have become less nationalistic, we've also become far bigger on outsourcing-- after all if it's not about nationalism, why the hell are we hiring Americans for a higher price when we can hire Mexicans, and Indians and such who will do the same job cheaper?

Which laws will change, and which sovereign rights do you think will get the ax? While we're at it, ho do we continue holding a nationalistic perspective when our natural advantage of isolationist geography has been erased by technology? There's no way it can't change, and no way to feasibly hold our society in a cryogenic storage in the year 1955.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 27):
A society of political correctness has made almost any form of dicussion on the topic difficult at best. You can be sued for saying something politically incorrect, fired from your job, ostracized. Freedom of speach and expression-- our most SACRED of rights have essentially been made to take a back seat to avoiding offending people, even when telling the truth and doing the right thing necessitates it. Without discussion and thought on the issue, it is virtually unfixable.

Give us an example. Do you think there was ever a time when you could say nasty things about your coworkers in the office and not face repercussions? Same goes for the public at large. Free speech doesn't always equal speech that's appropriate for the moment. As for lawsuits, sure, they'll get tossed around, but frivolities dashed out by opportunistic slimebal...lawyers do not equal constitutional curtailment of your right to free speech. I'm quite curious as to exactly what it is you used to be able to say that you must now keep to yourself.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 27):
Then there is the uninspired apathy which has crept upon our country. We don't have a nationalistic sense we did, we don't have the same sense of purpose we used to. Our government now operates less and less around the general will of the people, which as a republic (a democracy is where we all as a whole vote, and select our leaders... a republic is where you vote for the leaders, and vote in representatives who vote in your behalf-- a congressman or senator) is vital. With this administration, our government has taken away more and more of our civil liberties. People feel powerless as a whole.

I agree with you here, but I don't think this represents a change in our government; it's pretty much always been a gang of the rich running roughshod over the rest. Advances in the technology of finance and mass-communication, transportation, data processessing, and other areas, coupled with a near stranglehold on the political system by greasy scumb...lawyers and corporate campaign contributors has magnified the disconnect between citizenry and government. In addition, a population that's grown to the 300 million mark means any motion or change has a vast and sweeping effect.

I think our nation as we knew it in 1955 is long gone. Societal change sucks when you're lucky enough to live in one of the richest countries. Ask the Germans. Hell, ask the English. But borders no longer exist except in history books, and walling ourselves off to the world is the quickest way to ensure we Americans will all be working in a call center providing tech support to consumers in the Punjab.

So, yeah, there are problems, but political correctness is quite a ways down the list and, in my perception, an easy 'hot-button' and largely imaginary.

Sorry to go all AeerospaceFan on you. Back to my usual inane 'signed-by' posts  Smile

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: TZ757300
Posted 2007-03-07 20:26:50 and read 2563 times.

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 28):
Sorry to go all AeerospaceFan on you. Back to my usual inane 'signed-by' posts

You didn't edit your post 14 times in 3 minutes

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Aloges
Posted 2007-03-07 20:28:12 and read 2564 times.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 27):
North American Union

What would that be? I've looked around online and all I've found is allegations from fearsome souls that increased cooperation between the US, Canada and Mexico would lead to an EU-like union, alleging this would have to be a bad thing.

Well let me tell you as a citizen of the EU*: I became not a bit less German when the Maastricht treaty came into effect, and why would I? The EU hasn't made me lose anything, except maybe a few tears of laughter over regulations on the curvature of bananas.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 27):
We've stopped thinking of ourselves in the nationalistic way we used to see ourselves.

Frankly, what good is nationalism? What good is thinking one's own country is better than all others? Do people work hard because they want a good life or because they want the seal on their passport? There's no need to be overly sentimental about one select country because you're happy to live there; being happy and a good person towards others is plenty enough. Nationality doesn't increase or decrease any person's "value"; that term being nonsense itself in this regard.

As far as I know, American pupils still pledge allegiance to the flag and the national anthem is still sund before sporting events. People put up flags in their front lawns, they put bumper stickers on their cars saying "Proud to be an American!" and so on... so what part of nationalism has actually ceased to exist?
Now, I don't mean to attack anyone for his/her love for their home country, certainly not, but what I don't understand is this "you have to be proud of your home country" theme. Why would anyone have to be proud of that if they're doing fine already, getting along with everyone and doing their thing to keep society afloat?

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 27):
Freedom of speach and expression-- our most SACRED of rights have essentially been made to take a back seat to avoiding offending people, even when telling the truth and doing the right thing necessitates it.

You can blame part of that on radicals on either side. Every right brings a responsibility with it, the right to say a thing doesn't mean you have to say it. Unfortunately, it's commercial interest that drives people like Ann Coulter to say what they say, under the excuse of "freedom of speech". Without all the hatred spread by her ilk, things would probably be very different and discussion would be easier.

* yes, citizen of the EU: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_of_the_European_Union

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Aloges
Posted 2007-03-07 20:35:55 and read 2553 times.

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 28):
1. What are the colors of our flag?

red, white and blue

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 28):
2. How many stars are there in our flag?

50

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 28):
3. What color are the stars on our flag?

white

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 28):
4. What do the stars on the flag mean?

one star for each state (or commonwealth or whatever) of the union

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 28):
5. How many stripes are there in the flag?

13

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 28):
6. What color are the stripes?

red and white

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 28):
7. What do the stripes on the flag mean?

the 13 original states

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 28):
8. How many states are there in the Union?

50

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 28):
9. What is the 4th of July?

Independence Day = national holiday

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 28):
10. What is the date of Independence Day?

Err... see above!? Trick question?

Did I end up badly?  innocent 

Quoting TZ757300 (Reply 29):
You didn't edit your post 14 times in 3 minutes

Pretty conservative estimate there...  duck 

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: LHMARK
Posted 2007-03-07 20:39:02 and read 2547 times.

I GUESS we'd let you in, but only if you could prove no American would do your job!

How are you at picking fruit?

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Aloges
Posted 2007-03-07 20:44:02 and read 2539 times.

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 32):
I GUESS we'd let you in, but only if you could prove no American would do your job!

Hmmm... can we amend that to say "not enough Americans would do my job"?

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 32):
How are you at picking fruit?

I'm not that bad at cherry picking, actually... Big grin

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: TAZA
Posted 2007-03-07 20:51:25 and read 2530 times.

Quoting San747 (Reply 6):
Apathy is a dangerous thing, and people seem either not to know or not care about the negative direction the country is heading. Especially older Americans, who figure they'll be dead by the time this "supposed change" will come about, so why should they care?

Not so my friend, I have been around since before WW II and I care a great deal. Unfortunately it is the younger generation ( by that I mean those much younger than myself) who are acquiescing to the current affairs of today. Every day I cannot help but think of those thousands and thousands of young men and women who lie buried or missing in the far flung battlefields of the first and second world wars. I do not believe for one moment that those people ( of all ethnic backgrounds) would tolerate the pathetic mess that America has become socially and politically. Regarding apathy, no truer words were ever written than those of Professor Alexander Tyler ( a Scottish historian) when writing about the fall of the Athenian republic 2000 years earlier. He said (circa 1700):


" A democracy cannot exist as a permanent
form of government. It can only exist until
the voters discover that they can vote
themselves money from the public
treasury. From that moment on, the
majority always votes for the candidates
promising the most money from the public
treasury, with the result that a democracy
always collapses over loose fiscal policy
followed by a dictatorship.

The average age of the world's great
civilizations has been 200 years. These
nations have progressed through the
following sequence: from bondage to
spiritual faith , from spiritual faith to
great courage, from courage to liberty, from
liberty to abundance , from abundance to
selfishness , from selfishness to complacency ,
from complacency to apathy , from apathy to
dependency , from dependency back to
bondage ."


Where do you think we are today ?

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: San747
Posted 2007-03-07 21:02:17 and read 2506 times.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 30):
As far as I know, American pupils still pledge allegiance to the flag and the national anthem is still sund before sporting events. People put up flags in their front lawns, they put bumper stickers on their cars saying "Proud to be an American!" and so on... so what part of nationalism has actually ceased to exist?

The part where the people feel a loyalty to the Constitution and have a willingness to do whatever it takes to defend it. "Patriotism" and "Americanism" as a concept have been perverted into the idea of mindless flag-waving, saying "God Bless America" and unwavering support of your government and its leaders. God forbid one suggests there may be some problems with America...

Quoting TAZA (Reply 34):
Not so my friend, I have been around since before WW II and I care a great deal. Unfortunately it is the younger generation ( by that I mean those much younger than myself) who are acquiescing to the current affairs of today.

I didn't mean to generalize. I agree that many older Americans are troubled about the direction the country is heading. And I definitely agree that its my generation that isn't doing anything about today's problems.

Quoting TAZA (Reply 34):
Every day I cannot help but think of those thousands and thousands of young men and women who lie buried or missing in the far flung battlefields of the first and second world wars. I do not believe for one moment that those people ( of all ethnic backgrounds) would tolerate the pathetic mess that America has become socially and politically.

I totally agree. I guess that's why your (the WWII) generation is called the the greatest generation. I fear what history will call my generation if we don't start getting up off our asses and start doing something...

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: LHMARK
Posted 2007-03-07 21:06:39 and read 2499 times.

Quoting TAZA (Reply 34):


" A democracy cannot exist as a permanent
form of government. It can only exist until
the voters discover that they can vote
themselves money from the public
treasury. From that moment on, the
majority always votes for the candidates
promising the most money from the public
treasury, with the result that a democracy
always collapses over loose fiscal policy
followed by a dictatorship.

The average age of the world's great
civilizations has been 200 years. These
nations have progressed through the
following sequence: from bondage to
spiritual faith , from spiritual faith to
great courage, from courage to liberty, from
liberty to abundance , from abundance to
selfishness , from selfishness to complacency ,
from complacency to apathy , from apathy to
dependency , from dependency back to
bondage ."

Those are prophetic words indeed, and it's interesting to note how many people who had or have everything still care only about getting an ever-increasing slice of their pie.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: AGM100
Posted 2007-03-07 21:16:28 and read 2488 times.

Quoting TAZA (Reply 34):
Every day I cannot help but think of those thousands and thousands of young men and women who lie buried or missing in the far flung battlefields of the first and second world wars. I do not believe for one moment that those people ( of all ethnic backgrounds) would tolerate the pathetic mess that America has become socially and politically.

 checkmark   checkmark 


TAZA, I trie to teach my kids about the sacrifices of our for-generations. I really do think that it is something that can not be taught ! It is something that must be experienced to be appreciated .

My parents knew this as well, they sacrificed a comfortable life to take their kids over seas to "live" among other cultures. We lived very simple basic lives that required sacrifice which taught us to appreciate "less" than more.
I make a honest attempt to teach my kids the lessons of sacrifice , but it required immense discipline in this day and age. It is just to easy to live now adays , their is of course the challenge of work and raising kids in general. But we have it pretty good here , and it just leads to apathy.

I respect your opinion , do you have any suggections as to what we can do about this ? Is their a political solution ?

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Pbottenb
Posted 2007-03-07 21:29:31 and read 2474 times.

I just ate an excellent burrito that was prepared by a lovely hispanic looking young lady who didnt speak a word of english. I had no problem ordering my lunch, and she gave me such a nice smile.....seems like all is well where I come from...

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Checkraiser
Posted 2007-03-07 22:39:32 and read 2422 times.

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 38):
I just ate an excellent burrito that was prepared by a lovely hispanic looking young lady who didnt speak a word of english. I had no problem ordering my lunch, and she gave me such a nice smile.....seems like all is well where I come from...



Quoting TAZA (Reply 34):
Where do you think we are today ?

Alex, I'll take apathy for $1000

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Aloges
Posted 2007-03-07 22:49:21 and read 2412 times.

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 39):
Alex, I'll take apathy for $1000

Would you feel the same way if you were a Finn and ordered your food at a Turku snack bar in Swedish?

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Checkraiser
Posted 2007-03-07 22:54:55 and read 2407 times.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 40):
Would you feel the same way if you were a Finn and ordered your food at a Turku snack bar in Swedish?

 confused  WTF???  confused 

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Aloges
Posted 2007-03-07 23:01:01 and read 2399 times.

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 41):

What "what the fuck"?

The point is that not everyone living in a country has to speak its dominant language lest it falls apart.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Checkraiser
Posted 2007-03-07 23:27:55 and read 2385 times.

Not so, Aloges. Our neighbors to the north have problems with it. I'm not real well versed in Canada's issues but IIRC, there was a referendum of sorts maybe about 10 years ago for Quebec to secede. I'm sure there are Canadian members who can further elaborate.

Another observation I've made in Canada is that in the English speaking provinces road signs are in both French and English. In Quebec, they're almost entirely in French only - which is odd to me because, as you're well aware, the vast majority of Canadians speak English. There is definately rift between these two Canadian cultures.

But Canada, Finland and Sweden aren't the topic at hand.

The Spanish language is only part of the problem. The lady selling the burritos probably doesn't contribute to our tax roles. Therefore she probably has no health insurance, so who pays for her babies? Furthermore, her children won't learn English at home, so it'll be on my dime to hire teachers to teach them that subject. A lot of her income is shipped to Mexico and therefore not recirculated in our economy. I hope she doesn't crash into me on the freeway - because I doubt her car is insured either. But if I crash into her she'll take me to the cleaners in a lawsuit.

Of course, if you dare speak out about it, you're a racist, uneducated hick. And because you've been branded a racist all of your points are instantly nullified. That is how it works, right?

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: TZ757300
Posted 2007-03-07 23:38:06 and read 2373 times.

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 43):
The lady selling the burritos probably doesn't contribute to our tax roles. Therefore she probably has no health insurance, so who pays for her babies? Furthermore, her children won't learn English at home, so it'll be on my dime to hire teachers to teach them that subject. A lot of her income is shipped to Mexico and therefore not recirculated in our economy. I hope she doesn't crash into me on the freeway - because I doubt her car is insured either. But if I crash into her she'll take me to the cleaners in a lawsuit.

Its always a double standard. I personally think if you cant support yourself and come into the country, get out. There is nothing more worse than having to pay somebody a reparation for something when, if the roles are reversed, they dont have to pay a dime. I personally think its real screwed up.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Aloges
Posted 2007-03-07 23:42:45 and read 2374 times.

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 43):
The lady selling the burritos probably doesn't contribute to our tax roles. Therefore she probably has no health insurance, so who pays for her babies? Furthermore, her children won't learn English at home, so it'll be on my dime to hire teachers to teach them that subject. A lot of her income is shipped to Mexico and therefore not recirculated in our economy. I hope she doesn't crash into me on the freeway - because I doubt her car is insured either. But if I crash into her she'll take me to the cleaners in a lawsuit.

Ah yes... so it's all about the money again.  sarcastic  I should have known that it would be. All of those points minus the "shipped to Mexico" bit can apply to a US-born person as well, as you pay for the teachers of all children in public schools so your points are not specific to someone unable to speak English.

As for the money shipped to Mexico, I'd like to know how much the average worker in a fast food store can put aside and send south of the border every month. Oh, and what about the various Chinatowns in Little Italies in US cities, are those equally "terrible"?

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 43):
Of course, if you dare speak out about it, you're a racist, uneducated hick. And because you've been branded a racist all of your points are instantly nullified. That is how it works, right?

Your words, and I don't in the least agree with them. Just like I don't agree that a Spanish-speaking minority is a threat to the US. What I do notice is that the Latin American immigrants who do the dirty work no one else wants to do for salaries no one else wants to work for are confronted with the most hostility.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Pbottenb
Posted 2007-03-08 00:38:17 and read 2346 times.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 45):
What I do notice is that the Latin American immigrants who do the dirty work no one else wants to do for salaries no one else wants to work for are confronted with the most hostility.

One lesson that I learned as a boy scout was "never mess with a person who is doing his/her job" I think that generally, most Americans feel this way.

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 43):
The Spanish language is only part of the problem. The lady selling the burritos probably doesn't contribute to our tax roles. Therefore she probably has no health insurance, so who pays for her babies? Furthermore, her children won't learn English at home, so it'll be on my dime to hire teachers to teach them that subject. A lot of her income is shipped to Mexico and therefore not recirculated in our economy. I hope she doesn't crash into me on the freeway - because I doubt her car is insured either. But if I crash into her she'll take me to the cleaners in a lawsuit.

Of course, if you dare speak out about it, you're a racist, uneducated hick. And because you've been branded a racist all of your points are instantly nullified. That is how it works, right?

Checkraiser, you are making alot of assumptions here. Your first assumption is that the lady serving a burrito is an illegal alien. I would classify this as borderline racism. You might want to step back and take stock of your assumptions. Just because someone speaks Spanish and looks like a Latina and serves excellent burritos doesn't mean that she is an illegal alien and /or a drain on society.

Second, if she is working in a commercial establishment, she is contributing to our tax roles.

Thirdly, If her job doesn't pay for her insurance, then she probably doesn't have any. Just like any person legal or illegal, Mexican or Canadian, American, or whatever, who works at Wal MArt and countless other companies that pay low wages. The question of who pays for the babies is a universal one for all low wage earners, not just Mexican-Americans.

As far as your assumptions on language, I just disagree. I have never seen any stat that shows that children of immigrants typically dont learn english.

Anyway,

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 43):
Of course, if you dare speak out about it, you're a racist, uneducated hick. And because you've been branded a racist all of your points are instantly nullified. That is how it works, right?

No thats not how it works. The way it works is when someone spouts a bunch of verbal diahrea that contains many stereotypical assumptions and characterizations regarding a specific class of people they are generally not taken seriously, and often, they are branded as racists...

PB

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Checkraiser
Posted 2007-03-08 00:50:22 and read 2335 times.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 45):
All of those points minus the "shipped to Mexico" bit can apply to a US-born person as well

Sure they can. Does that make it right? Should we not try to quell those problems? Is it a mere coincidence that hospitals near the border are going broke?



Quoting Aloges (Reply 45):
you pay for the teachers of all children in public schools so your points are not specific to someone unable to speak English.

But now I have to pay for even more teachers, more books, more buildings (which will be built by the burrito lady's husband), and more buses.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 45):
As for the money shipped to Mexico, I'd like to know how much the average worker in a fast food store can put aside and send south of the border every month.

I really don't know. But money sent there from Mexican residents living in the US is Mexico's 2nd largest source of income.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 45):
Oh, and what about the various Chinatowns in Little Italies in US cities, are those equally "terrible"?

You won't find nearly as many illegal Italians or Chinese. Not even close. Furthermore, the ethnic groups you mentioned typically learn English and make a much better effort to assimilate.


And the jobs debate doesn't end at working fast food or picking lettuce. The've virtually taken over the construction trade. Those are/were good paying jobs Americans were happy to do.

I'm having a new roof put on my house this summer. Even if it costs me more, I'll do the right thing and NOT use a contractor that employs illegals.

[Edited 2007-03-08 01:19:16]

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Checkraiser
Posted 2007-03-08 01:18:08 and read 2318 times.

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 46):
Your first assumption is that the lady serving a burrito is an illegal alien. I would classify this as borderline racism.

Why is it racist to assume that? Let me put it to you this way: Say you were forced to lay a $500 bet whether she was or wasn't an illegal. Would you put your money where your mouth is?

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 46):
Second, if she is working in a commercial establishment, she is contributing to our tax roles.

Not necessarily. If you're here illegally what's to stop you from claiming 9 and not bothering to file a tax return? For that matter, how do you file a tax return if you're not a legal resident?

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 46):
The question of who pays for the babies is a universal one for all low wage earners, not just Mexican-Americans.

True. But poor legal citizens aren't breaking the law by being here.

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 46):
As far as your assumptions on language, I just disagree. I have never seen any stat that shows that children of immigrants typically dont learn english.

I never said that. My gripe was that we have to pay to teach them English because it's typically not the language spoken at home. They show up at school knowing very little.

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 46):
The way it works is when someone spouts a bunch of verbal diahrea that contains many stereotypical assumptions and characterizations regarding a specific class of people they are generally not taken seriously, and often, they are branded as racists...

The truth be damned

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Aaron747
Posted 2007-03-08 01:26:02 and read 2301 times.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 16):
More of what I'm getting at is that diversity should be welcomed. Yes, first people need to realize they are American and realize the values that this country were founded upon. It's time to put our petty differences aside as a nation and work together to progress our country so that it can function at its optimum capabilities. But people shouldn't forget about their culture because that would be, in essence, forgetting history. What I find dangerous about the line of thinking suggested by Gov. Lamm is that it can lead to stereotyping, prejudice, and hatred.

There's a big difference between welcoming diversity and allowing the myriad socioeconomic impacts of the illegal flood to metasticize.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Pbottenb
Posted 2007-03-08 01:47:32 and read 2291 times.

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 48):
Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 46):
Your first assumption is that the lady serving a burrito is an illegal alien. I would classify this as borderline racism.

Why is it racist to assume that? Let me put it to you this way: Say you were forced to lay a $500 bet whether she was or wasn't an illegal. Would you put your money where your mouth is?

Im really not liking your approach here. This is not about betting on someones life. I feel that such a bet woudl be racist, demeaining, and poor taste. In our country, the one that you claim to be so passionate about defending, one is innocent until proven guilty. We dont assume that any person is guilty of a crime just because he or she serves burritos or has brown skin. This principal is one of the core values that so many of our citizens (and non-citizens) have fought and died for. So yes, by assuming that one is an illegan alien due to his or her skin color or profession is racist.

Iv said this on other threads in the past. I live in Southern California (otherwise known as paradise). I grew up surrounded by spanish speaking mexican-americans and have learned to respect them. One of my first girlfriends was a latina whose parents migrated LEGALLY during the 1970's. Her dad made his living picking oranges in the groves around Redlands and Riverside. He spoke no english. His daughter was not only pretty, she was also smart. She (and her 10 legal brothers and sisters) grew up bilingual and she is now a vice president of a bank, making 6 figures plus per year. Now her dad is exactly the kind of person that I would bet that you would call a drain on society without even considering that he has a legal right to be here. His children are contributing a considerable amount to our tax rolls.

So - Moral of the story? You have no clue what you are talking about.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Prebennorholm
Posted 2007-03-08 01:52:56 and read 2284 times.

Huh, a bilingual country will always commit suicide...!!! Rubbish.

Look at Switzerland, seven million heads, four official languages. Not at all a failed country.

They just make larger bank notes to be able to write everything on them in four languages. And print the nation's name on stamps using a fifth language, Latin.

One of the the four official languages is German, which is widely understood, but hardly spoken. Instead they talk some strange language called "Sweedzerdytz" which is understood by nobody else on this planet, a language with no official way to be written - German writing is substituted.

Including Latin that makes almost six languages. But then a seventh unofficial language is really on the advance in Switzerland. It is called "Neudeutsch", (New German) and it is a simplified, busines oriented subset of the English language. It comes in two slightly different versions, with slight German or French flavors respectively.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Arrow
Posted 2007-03-08 02:18:41 and read 2259 times.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 27):
Treaties like NAFTA for example have done little help to provide nationalistic feelings, essentially the plan is to merge the US, Canada, and Mexico into the North American Union. We will lose many of our sovereign rights, and some people in the North American Union, whom the power lies within, are unelected people. Virtually nothing will stop this "merger" between us and Canada and Mexico.

This is hilarious. There are lots of Canadians who express exactly the same emotion, and believe very strongly that Canada has "lost its sovereign rights" to the U.S. Truth is, when you do a deal so that you can get along better -- you all lose a little sovereignty, and that's not a bad thing. Example? Canada agreed that it won't turn off the energy tap flowing south (we're your biggest supplier of energy by far), and you agreed to pay market prices for it and exempt it from trade actions. We get piles of money, you get to stay warm at night. Would you prefer that we go back to the old "sovereign" system that lets us cut you off when ever we feel like it? And trust me, there isn't going to be a North American Union, short of the US adopting a parliamentary system of government and moving the NAU capital to Winnipeg. Think that'll fly?

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 43):
Another observation I've made in Canada is that in the English speaking provinces road signs are in both French and English. In Quebec, they're almost entirely in French only - which is odd to me because, as you're well aware, the vast majority of Canadians speak English. There is definately rift between these two Canadian cultures.

Yes, there are lots of tensions and lots of sparring -- but we make it work and we get along. Separation would diminish both French and English Canada -- and a majority of Quebeckers seem to agree. The separatists never have the guts to ask a blunt, unequivocal question along the lines of "do you want to be a completely independent country" because they know it would lose by an overwhelming margin. French and English on the road signs? What's the big deal? Besides, that practice applies only on federal buildings and lands, so those French only signs in Quebec are matched by English only signs in the other provinces. Europeans shame all of us in North America on this score, and I can't believe that anyone seriously believes that the huge influx of Spanish speakers is a threat to the U.S. Try Switzerland some time, where they all speak French, German, and Italian -- and most of them speak English too. They seem very happy with their lot. Lighten up and learn Spanish -- you'll be a better person for it.

[Edited 2007-03-08 02:26:01]

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Checkraiser
Posted 2007-03-08 03:05:30 and read 2239 times.

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 50):
I feel that such a bet woudl be racist, demeaining, and poor taste.

The aforementioned "bet" is hypothetical (I thought that was implied.) No matter; you're skirting the question.

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 50):
by assuming that one is an illegan alien due to his or her skin color or profession is racist.

You forgot the failure to speak English.

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 50):
a latina whose parents migrated LEGALLY during the 1970's.

I have no problem with that. I like how you emphasized "legally".

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 50):
Now her dad is exactly the kind of person that I would bet that you would call a drain on society without even considering that he has a legal right to be here.

I don't know. If he's brown, in an orange grove, and doesn't speak English, yes, I would probably think that. Maybe it's my gambling mentality - political correctness can't blind me from the odds.

Then again, if I saw him today, 30 years later, I would hope he learned to speak English, put his legal status to work for himself and gotten a better job.

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 50):
So - Moral of the story? You have no clue what you are talking about.

I'm glad you didn't forget rule #1 of supporting illegal immigration (sign off with a personal attack.)

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Pbottenb
Posted 2007-03-08 03:40:53 and read 2222 times.

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 53):
You forgot the failure to speak English.

The United Sates does not recognize an official language. Here is the OFFICIAL US Government web site:

http://www.usa.gov/gobiernousa/index.shtml IN SPANISH if you look at this web page you will see a nice picture of a brown skinned family. Do you think that they are illegal aliens? Are they a drain on society?

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 53):
don't know. If he's brown, in an orange grove, and doesn't speak English, yes, I would probably think that. Maybe it's my gambling mentality - political correctness can't blind me from the odds.

Then again, if I saw him today, 30 years later, I would hope he learned to speak English, put his legal status to work for himself and gotten a better job.

Not really a very nice statement on your part. the more you type the more you convince me that you are a racist. I suggest that you stop now before you type something that you will regret.

To follow your logic, the Highway Patrol should be able to just mail you a ticked at least once a month because since (according to your profile) you are a truck driver and you are a male between the ages of 26 and 35, so you will most likely have committed the misdemeanor of speeding based on the number of miles that you drive. Additionally, since you are a trucker, you are most likely a methamphetamine abuser so you should go ahead and schedule a drug test next week at the local police station.

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 53):
Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 50):
So - Moral of the story? You have no clue what you are talking about.

I'm glad you didn't forget rule #1 of supporting illegal immigration (sign off with a personal attack.)

Telling you that you have no clue is not a personal attack my friend. And to use this statement from me as a defense of your racist attitude is weak.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Pbottenb
Posted 2007-03-08 03:47:14 and read 2220 times.

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 53):
Then again, if I saw him today, 30 years later, I would hope he learned to speak English, put his legal status to work for himself and gotten a better job.

One last thing - This statement really bothers me. this guy worked for 30 years picking oranges, he buys his own house, drives a crappy car, puts all his kids through private catholic school, puts half his kids through state college has lots of happy grand children, yet you basically write him off because he doesnt speak english and never got a "better" job. Ill tell you one thing, I know alot of white trash truck drivers who have accomplished a lot less in life.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Checkraiser
Posted 2007-03-08 07:51:47 and read 2174 times.

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 55):
I know alot of white trash truck drivers who have accomplished a lot less in life.



Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 54):
Additionally, since you are a trucker, you are most likely a methamphetamine abuser so you should go ahead and schedule a drug test next week at the local police station.

More personal attacks. By the way, I'm not a "trucker." I push paper in the fleet maintenence and safety/compliance arena. We have about 60 drivers. To comply with the DOT rules we randomly drug test 50% of our drivers per annum. In six years I've never had one come up positive for meth.

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 54):
I suggest that you stop now before you type something that you will regret.

Just how will I regret typing anything?

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 54):
misdemeanor of speeding

Speeding is not a misdemeanor. Illegal presense is.

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 55):
this guy worked for 30 years picking oranges, he buys his own house, drives a crappy car, puts all his kids through private catholic school, puts half his kids through state college

 redflag   redflag   redflag   redflag 

Now I smell a rat. How can you afford a house (in CA of all places), afford private school for 10 kids, and college for 5 by picking oranges?

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Pbottenb
Posted 2007-03-08 16:52:14 and read 2139 times.

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 56):
Now I smell a rat. How can you afford a house (in CA of all places), afford private school for 10 kids, and college for 5 by picking oranges?

Its called sacrifice and good financial management - something to be respected. Beleive it or not there is low income housing here in Calif.

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 56):
know alot of white trash truck drivers who have accomplished a lot less in life.



Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 54):
Additionally, since you are a trucker, you are most likely a methamphetamine abuser so you should go ahead and schedule a drug test next week at the local police station.

More personal attacks.

I find it telling that you cosider any stereotypical description of your life to be a personal attack, but when you use racist sterotypes to describe others you descripe it as "playing the odds".

Hello Mr. Pot id like to introduce you to Mr Kettle.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2007-03-08 20:05:22 and read 2110 times.

God.....the sky is falling, the sky is falling!

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 50):
I live in Southern California (otherwise known as paradise).

Dude, you have to get beyond that premise.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Pbottenb
Posted 2007-03-08 23:59:34 and read 2061 times.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 58):
God.....the sky is falling, the sky is falling!

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 50):
I live in Southern California (otherwise known as paradise).

Dude, you have to get beyond that premise.

OK, fair enough,

I can only say that yesterday, when I wrote this, I had just golfed 9 holes before work and the air was clear, the temp was about 62 degrees at 6:30 am, and there was no one else on the course....All I can say is that when I wrote this, I truly felt like I was in paradise...

While it is not related to this thread, here is the pointcast from the Nat Weather service for ONT today....paradise...at least right now...summertime sucks...

Big version: Width: 671 Height: 570 File size: 1122kb

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Blackbird
Posted 2007-03-09 00:54:57 and read 2046 times.

A parliamentary style system for America would be terrible. It would reduce the people's authority in selecting the president.

These are some things I worry about with an NAU system coming into play

Andrea K

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2007-03-09 01:28:38 and read 2035 times.

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 59):
OK, fair enough,

I can only say that yesterday, when I wrote this, I had just golfed 9 holes before work and the air was clear, the temp was about 62 degrees at 6:30 am, and there was no one else on the course....All I can say is that when I wrote this, I truly felt like I was in paradise...

I lived in Long Beach and Signal Hill for 12 years.....plenty enough for one lifetime. Beauty's in the eye of the beholder I s'pose but I do not like to see what I'm breathing anymore.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: N229NW
Posted 2007-03-09 01:46:09 and read 2030 times.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 14):
Hmm. Sounds like a white guy afraid of change.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 27):
There are classes in schools that teach English as a SECOND Language for Godssake!

NO WAI !!

Newsflash, the idea of these classes is to mainstream kids so they can pursue their further education in ENGLISH!

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 59):
I can only say that yesterday, when I wrote this, I had just golfed 9 holes before work and the air was clear, the temp was about 62 degrees at 6:30 am, and there was no one else on the course....

I'll take winter, thanks though (I grew up in LA--can't deal with the weather out there)...I know many people like it.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Arrow
Posted 2007-03-09 01:47:25 and read 2030 times.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 60):
A parliamentary style system for America would be terrible. It would reduce the people's authority in selecting the president.

You mean the authority vested totally in the electoral college? The system that lets the candidate who finished second in the popular vote tally win the day? The system that lets a president remain completely unaccountable for four years? The system that banishes to the political wilderness for four years a candidate who collects nearly 50% of the vote?

Actually, I agree with you. A parliamentary system in the U.S. would be terrible, but that doesn't mean the current system couldn't be improved a tad to restore that authority you talk about.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Pbottenb
Posted 2007-03-09 01:58:27 and read 2026 times.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 61):
lived in Long Beach and Signal Hill for 12 years.....plenty enough for one lifetime. Beauty's in the eye of the beholder I s'pose but I do not like to see what I'm breathing anymore.

Not this time of year:

From the AQMD website:

http://www.aqmd.gov/telemweb/areamap.aspx

East San Bernardino Valley Air Monitoring Subregion
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's 4:43 PM on Thursday, March 08, 2007 in Southern California. Currently, temperature information is not monitored. Wind is out of the West at 5 MPH.

Thus far, today's Air Quality

Currently: O3 - 25 AQI
Highs: O3 - 29 AQI


Yesterday's Air Quality

Highs: O3 - 26 AQI

AQI
0-50 Good
51-100 Moderate
101-150 Unhealthy for sensitive groups
151-200 Unhealthy
200+ Very Unhealthy

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Blackbird
Posted 2007-03-09 02:10:34 and read 2018 times.

Arrow, I think we should use the popular vote only in America. I am opposed to a parlimentary way of running things though. The American republic is far better than a parlimentary system.

Andrea Kent

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: VonRichtofen
Posted 2007-03-09 02:34:41 and read 2008 times.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 18):
Yeah, and we're really doing well with it up here. sarcastic

Bilingualism can be a good thing, however there is a fine line and we have already crossed it. Nobody has to look any farther than Quebec. Of course, it doesn't stop there.

How is it affecting your life personally? Is Bilingualism destroying Canada?  Yeah sure

Last time I checked, we're still pretty high on the Quality of Life index.

Kris

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Cairo
Posted 2007-03-09 06:20:57 and read 1979 times.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 2):
They're out to get votes, not to solve problems



Quoting TedTAce (Reply 22):
They have both done an excellent job of making Americans forget what government is all about

Is there anyone who thinks a lifetime politician is a good person to be in charge of things?

Sure, there are honest ones, but the temptation to act for short term gains in the hopes of re-election is just too great.

Two solutions, both easily possible today:

1. term limits
2. direct democracy ( in Switzerland currently - the public votes directly on matters, bypassing legislators)



Cairo

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: TheCol
Posted 2007-03-09 22:04:50 and read 1916 times.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 66):

Again, as I sated before, Bilingualism can be a good thing. I support having two official languages spoken in Canada. However, going as far as enacting Bill 101 was a bad idea.

Topic: RE: "A Plan To Destroy America"
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2007-03-10 02:15:31 and read 1877 times.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 67):
1. term limits
2. direct democracy ( in Switzerland currently - the public votes directly on matters, bypassing legislators)

they've been tried and they've both failed in the US. They're just like any other simple answer to a complex problem, they're invariably wrong.


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