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Topic: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: Bofredrik
Posted 2007-08-11 23:30:40 and read 2201 times.

http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=148&a=679733&rss=1400

Active conscription ("the draft") maybe introduced again to get enough
soldiers to Iraq...

It is a article this evening in swedens largest newspaper and they are
quoting Douglas Lute, president advisor, who was on a NPR program.

Can only a president like George W. Bush do this with a short period
left of his term?

http://www.jcs.mil/bios/bio_lute.html

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: SW733
Posted 2007-08-11 23:44:31 and read 2175 times.

While I am a 23 year old US citizen male, I am also a foreign citizen so I would likely be void from any draft. However, most of my male friends in the US are just US citizens, and as such, this scares the living crap out of me. It is unlikely that the draft will be reinstated, as the American people have many times stated their outright disagreement with the draft, but it's still worrysome (sp?).

Instead of reinstating the draft, why can't the government do other things, such as to make joining the military more attractive. Right now, people looking at joining the military see an ongoing 2 front war where American soldiers seem to be killed every day. That's not too attractive to people, I don't care how much they give you for college these days.

Also, come on, include women if you're going to have another draft - it's only fair. This isn't 1944 anymore.

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: Bofredrik
Posted 2007-08-11 23:50:39 and read 2157 times.

Maybe they have done what they can to "attract" young people so this
is the only quick option? But with or without this "draft" is it usually not
the "the rich and famous" that have to send their kids abroad. They
will get away with it this time also... I think that it is only the people of
Iraq that can solve its own problems. But will they get a chance?

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: ANCFlyer
Posted 2007-08-11 23:50:42 and read 2157 times.

GReat, how about some translation for those of us that don't speak Swedish . . .

Rule 2: As this is an international website, messages should be written in English. An occasional "Hello" or "How are you?" in French, Swahili or any other language is however permitted.

Now that said: There will not be a draft in the US.

This topic pops up here all the time . . . . doomsdayers and conspiracy theorists . . . .

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: Aloges
Posted 2007-08-11 23:53:35 and read 2156 times.

As much as I'd love to see some bandwagon warriors - the kind of people who will gladly "stand up for the nation" and "support the troops" as long as it doesn't take more than hard talk, one vote every four years and a bumper sticker - getting a taste of real war, I can't say I'd wish the hideously unfair process of conscription onto anyone. And I don't want to hear that there are "ways to make it fair", bureaucratic monsters doesn't care if your reason to stay at home is good or fabricated.

Just look at the Bush/Kerry saga...  stirthepot 

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: ArniePie
Posted 2007-08-11 23:54:16 and read 2148 times.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 1):
While I am a 23 year old US citizen male, I am also a foreign citizen

If the draft works like it did over here you are out of luck, if they find you eligible (medical/age/...), seen you reside currently in Kansas City and you have citizenship you would have to go just like the rest.


Still remains to be seen if its going to happen at all.
If they decide on going for an Iranian adventure you can bet your ass that the draft will come back in a big way but as long as its only IRAQ+Afghanistan I don't see it happening. (but what do I really know anyway??)

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: SlamClick
Posted 2007-08-11 23:55:59 and read 2148 times.

I think another way of saying this is: "The sky is falling!"

Ain't gonna happen. That won't stop people whose religion is anti-Bushist from dire predictions but it is just not reality. Even IF GWB wanted to re-institute the draft for Iraq some powerful GOPers would sit him down and explain that the party doesn't have the "political capital" to make it happen. The war is not popular, even with us conservatives. In any event, nowhere in Washington is the war as popular as getting re-elected is. I guess you call that "checks and balances."

W is not going to propose it and Congress is not going to enact it.

Next.

Oh, if something weird happens, like some other nation opens up a new theater of operations in the WOT then all bets are off.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 1):
Also, come on, include women if you're going to have another draft - it's only fair. This isn't 1944 anymore.

I favor a national draft for civilian jobs as well. USPS letter carriers should all be draftees, not grouches awating public pensions. But that is another thread.

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2007-08-12 00:08:10 and read 2128 times.

Bofredrick, even if we have a draft not "all men will have to go to Iraq.".

All men between 18 and 31, I believe, have to fill out Selective Service forms, even now, when there is no draft, to be in the system in case one is ordered.

Then, there would be a "lottery" based on birth dates, I believe, and that's how men are picked for the draft. In the U.S. we would not have universal conscription, so you're premise, to begin with is wrong.

Since I have a daugther that is draft age, I don't want one, in case women are included. And I have a son that will be draft-age in 4 years. The only reason I'd want a draft is to draft these damn ChickenHawk college Republicans, who cheer loudly for the war, but, like many of those they idolize in the GOP, don't have the balls to go and serve in a conflict they support. I'd love to send the whole lot of them to Iraq.

I agree with ANC. There won't be a draft. The biggest reason is that, even with our military stretched thin, most of them 1. don't want their kids going, and 2. don't have the balls to order one.

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: Halls120
Posted 2007-08-12 00:10:38 and read 2124 times.

Quoting Bofredrik (Thread starter):
Can only a president like George W. Bush do this with a short period
left of his term?

No. He couldn't do it if he had four more years.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 6):
W is not going to propose it and Congress is not going to enact it.

Next.

It really has been a slow news day for the past several days, hasn't it?

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: Srbmod
Posted 2007-08-12 00:27:30 and read 2098 times.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):

All men between 18 and 31, I believe, have to fill out Selective Service forms, even now, when there is no draft, to be in the system in case one is ordered.

It's 18-25.

How many members of Congress are willing to risk being defeated the next time they are up for re-election if they were to vote in favor of the resumption of the Draft? Voting to reinstate the Draft would be political suicide.

Interesting thing to note, the most recent (2003) vote to reintroduce the draft was introduced by two Democrats, Sen. Hollings of SC and Rep. Rangel of NY. The bill made it as far as the floor of the House, where it was defeated by a vote of 2-402 (Rep. Murtha D-PA and Pete Stark D-CA being the two members voting aye on the bill.). It has been reintroduced back in January of this year by Rep. Rangel as H.R. 393, but nothing has been acting on it legislatively since February (For all practical purposes, it's dead.).

Text of H.R. 393

Here's the title of said H.R.:

Quote:
To require all persons in the United States between the ages of 18 and 42 to perform national service, either as a member of the uniformed services or in civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, to authorize the induction of persons in the uniformed services during wartime to meet end-strength requirements of the uniformed services, to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to make permanent the favorable treatment afforded combat pay under the earned income tax credit, and for other purposes.


[Edited 2007-08-12 00:28:09]

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: L-188
Posted 2007-08-12 00:44:02 and read 2081 times.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 1):
me. It is unlikely that the draft will be reinstated, as the American people have many times stated their outright disagreement with the draft, but it's still worrysome (sp?).

One of those people is GW.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 9):
Interesting thing to note, the most recent (2003) vote to reintroduce the draft was introduced by two Democrats, Sen. Hollings of SC and Rep. Rangel of NY. The bill made it as far as the floor of the House, where it was defeated by a vote of 2-402 (Rep. Murtha D-PA and Pete Stark D-CA being the two members voting aye on the bill.). It has been reintroduced back in January of this year by Rep. Rangel as H.R. 393, but nothing has been acting on it legislatively since February (For all practical purposes, it's dead.).

Exactly correct, and GW spoke out against it. The draft bill isn't about strengthening the military, it is about weakening it to the point that it can't be deployed anywhere in the world.

Rangel, in is own reality belives that if we had a draftee army, we would be forced out of Iraq.....What a chowderhead.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
I don't want one, in case women are included.

I can appreciate the fact you don't want your family drafted but they better go for equal opportunity if Rangel and Murtha have their way.

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: SW733
Posted 2007-08-12 00:48:02 and read 2073 times.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
One of those people is GW.



Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
Exactly correct, and GW spoke out against it

Yes, we all know that, nobody, myself included, ever said GW was pro-draft on here...

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: L-188
Posted 2007-08-12 00:53:52 and read 2062 times.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 11):
Yes, we all know that, nobody, myself included, ever said GW was pro-draft on here...

Last year my grandmother swore it was all GW's idea.

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: SW733
Posted 2007-08-12 00:56:51 and read 2056 times.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
Last year my grandmother swore it was all GW's idea.

I try not to swear  Smile That's a lie...

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: Doona
Posted 2007-08-12 00:57:29 and read 2056 times.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
There will not be a draft in the US

I agree on that. Plus, the article quotes Lute (who, apparently, is not a primary adviser to the administration, but rather a "vice-adviser") as saying that "he thinks that a draft should be considered", which points more toward personal opinion than an official statement. However, he goes on to say that a draft has always been an option, but I get the impression that the "always"-part is more in the sense of "it can be done", and again, not an option which carries the same weight as whatever else they're discussing.

Quoting Bofredrik (Thread starter):
swedens largest newspaper

Actually, they're down to the number two spot, thanks to Metro.

Cheers
Mats

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: L-188
Posted 2007-08-12 00:59:10 and read 2051 times.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 13):
Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
Last year my grandmother swore it was all GW's idea.

I try not to swear That's a lie...

I lied too, she still insists that it is all GW's idea.

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: SlamClick
Posted 2007-08-12 01:02:29 and read 2044 times.

Okay, everyone stop peeking under your bed.
There is no boogeyman!

Bush is a member in good standing of the Republican Party. He was that before and and will be that after he was the occupant at 1600 Pennsylvania.

He knows that. And even if he doesn't the people who put Presidents in office know that.

He is temporary.

The Party goes on. They are not going to commit political suicide over any single issue. Maybe it is not always to their credit but their values and beliefs get re-examined from time to time in light of which way the wind is blowing.

No draft for Iraq looming.

Draft reinstated when we are "out of" Iraq - maybe.

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: ArniePie
Posted 2007-08-12 01:04:57 and read 2043 times.

Personally I think serving for your country ,be it military or if you object to using/wearing arms in a civil function, is not a bad thing at all, I for one have still good memories about my time in the service even if it didn't pay jack sh*t.

Up until the early 90's most young men had to serve between 10 and 18 months in the military over here and non of them turned out any worse because of it.

It serves a couple of good goals:
-It build character if you're away from under your parents wings and teaches some of them a bit off the necessary independence and responsibility.
-Giving up about 1 year of your life to serve the community seems fair to me and not too much asked.
-The military institute shouldn't be all professional as this makes them too detached from the rest of the population and creates a danger that they are given or take too much power without a controlling civilian input.
-It saves the military money because they don't have to spend too much from the budget to non military matters like catering/maintenance of buildings and other more common equipment like regular cars+trucks+.../cleaning/ and a whole lot of other things.
-Sometimes you can learn some usefull things you can use later on in life
I cannot start counting the number of people that got their driver licenses for trucks/cars/cranes/... in the military when they had to do their service times, also other real life experiences like office work/ computer skills/ technical training/ ... .
-It build up my physique and made me appreciate sports more.
-In the event of a major conflict you can assemble a large military apparatus much quicker.

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: L-188
Posted 2007-08-12 01:07:56 and read 2038 times.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 16):
Draft reinstated when we are "out of" Iraq - maybe

I think it is long maybe.

One thing about the draft that I don't think the democrats think about is that military voters do tend to me more conservative and if you create a draft you are going to create more members of the military and therefore more future republicans.

I think it might be a case of be careful what you wish for.

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: ANCFlyer
Posted 2007-08-12 01:25:59 and read 2020 times.

Quoting Doona (Reply 14):
I agree on that. Plus, the article quotes Lute (who, apparently, is not a primary adviser to the administration, but rather a "vice-adviser") as saying that "he thinks that a draft should be considered", which points more toward personal opinion than an official statement. However, he goes on to say that a draft has always been an option, but I get the impression that the "always"-part is more in the sense of "it can be done", and again, not an option which carries the same weight as whatever else they're discussing.

Thanks for that translation of the important points my friend.  thumbsup 

With this info it's clear to see BoFredrick is up to his usual, and I was right about conspiracy theorists.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 16):
Okay, everyone stop peeking under your bed.
There is no boogeyman!

Yes there is!  scared  hypnotized 

Signed,
Blackbird

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: TPAnx
Posted 2007-08-12 01:40:18 and read 1989 times.

Agree with much that ArniePie wrote in reply 17. But the draft won't happen...for the political reasons stated above.
Also read this morning that the Army met its recruiting goals for June. It's now offering a 20-thousand dollar bonus if
you sign up, and are willing to report for basic training within 30 days...
TPAnx

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: Doona
Posted 2007-08-12 01:44:05 and read 1982 times.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):

With this info it's clear to see BoFredrick is up to his usual, and I was right about conspiracy theorists.

Well, I wouldn't put him down completely, the article's headline is misleading ("The US might reinstate the draft"), and whoever wrote it is obviously trying to shape the message, even if the quotes in the article don't quite back him/her up. As someone who has studied journalism for a while and done some writing, I'd have to say that the article is pretty shoddy. Shoddy I say!

Cheers
Mats

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2007-08-12 02:36:31 and read 1940 times.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
Rangel, in is own reality belives that if we had a draftee army, we would be forced out of Iraq.....What a chowderhead.

According to him, his push for the draft (despite not voting for his own ill-conceived bill) was more of a statement on social-inequality than anything having to do with the military per se.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 16):
Bush is a member in good standing of the Republican Party

How so?

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: PAHS200
Posted 2007-08-12 02:41:50 and read 1938 times.

I'm 16 (17 on 8/26) I'll go right now if I could...

sign me up uncle sam

Michael

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: Aloges
Posted 2007-08-12 02:52:56 and read 1926 times.

Quoting PAHS200 (Reply 23):
I'll go right now if I could...

sign me up uncle sam

You might want to read a few of UH60FtRucker's old threads from Iraq before you decide... and generally, do a lot of thinking.

Iraq Trip Report (by UH60FtRucker Feb 16 2006 in Non Aviation)
Pictures From Iraq (by UH60FtRucker Mar 11 2006 in Non Aviation)
News From Iraq (by UH60FtRucker Apr 25 2006 in Non Aviation)
Tons Of Pictures From Iraq (by UH60FtRucker May 7 2006 in Non Aviation)
I Need To Talk About What Happened Here In Iraq (by UH60FtRucker May 11 2006 in Non Aviation)
Update From Iraq With Pictures (by UH60FtRucker Jun 1 2006 in Non Aviation)
Iraq - My Latest Pics, Stories And Shananigans (by UH60FtRucker Aug 1 2006 in Non Aviation)
What The Hell Is Up With Iraq - My Thoughts (by UH60FtRucker Aug 22 2006 in Non Aviation)
The Usual Same Ol' Same Ol' - Pictures From Iraq (by UH60FtRucker Aug 23 2006 in Non Aviation)
My Latest Update From Iraq With More Pictures (by UH60FtRucker Oct 8 2006 in Non Aviation)
Christmas In Ramadi, Iraq (by UH60FtRucker Dec 25 2006 in Non Aviation)
UH60's Long Overdue Update From Iraq (by UH60FtRucker Jan 23 2007 in Non Aviation)

[Edited 2007-08-12 02:54:01]

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2007-08-12 03:12:11 and read 1915 times.

This does pop up from time to time either to: 1) to put pressure on President Bush and pro-war in Iraq politicans to get the USA out of there, 2) to face the reality that we may not be able to get enough persons to serve or at a very high cost. Of course, it a draft were to be reinstated, women would also have to register and be included. I suspect that while a high percentage who got drafted would serve, we know that a higher percentage then during past draft eras would find any tiny physical flaw, use drugs, say they were gay, use political connections to get out of the service or get a cushy situation (like Bush did).

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: Charles79
Posted 2007-08-13 07:13:51 and read 1731 times.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 25):
say they were gay

That would actually be interesting, IF a draft were to be put in place (very highly unlikely, plenty of reasons given above) how would the administration deal with gays in the military. If they reinstate the draft because there's not enough soldiers, how can they support that argument when they are turning gay men away who want to serve voluntarily. Me thinks that they'd have to allow gays in the military before they force a draft on the American people...

...that said, I agree with ArniePie about the reasons why a draft isn't such a bad idea. However, I'll twist it a bit. Instead of a military-only draft, why not make it a community service commitment plan. Under this plan you could choose between one of the 5 services (Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard) or do community service in your home town (things like drive school bus, care for the elderly, work in a government/municipal job, etc). This way everybody could serve, even those not physically fit for the military. I think this would be the only way that the American public would accept some sort of draft.

Again, an old-fashion military draft is not likely to happen within the next few decades.

Cheers!

Charles

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: Aloges
Posted 2007-08-13 08:12:45 and read 1703 times.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 26):
I think this would be the only way that the American public would accept some sort of draft.

It's basically what we have here in Germany, albeit it's mostly a farce these days. I find that this sort of draft interferes severely with an individual's freedom to choose what (s)he wants to do in life, which shouldn't happen in any democratic nation unless there's a severe outside threat to its existence.

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: ME AVN FAN
Posted 2007-08-13 10:59:20 and read 1675 times.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 5):
you are out of luck, if they find you eligible (medical/age/...), seen you reside currently in Kansas City and you have citizenship you would have to go just like the rest.

depends on A) what his "other" nationality is, and B) whether he has been with the army in that "other" nation before moving to the USA
-

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
a "lottery" based on birth dates, I believe, and that's how men are picked for the draft. In the U.S. we would not have universal conscription

chosen by lottery ? sounds like "Banana Republic's armed forces" to me !
-

Topic: RE: USA: Maybe "all" Men Have To Go To Iraq?
Username: ArniePie
Posted 2007-08-13 12:01:18 and read 1658 times.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 26):
...that said, I agree with ArniePie about the reasons why a draft isn't such a bad idea. However, I'll twist it a bit. Instead of a military-only draft, why not make it a community service commitment plan.

That was exactly how it worked back in the days the service still existed.
If you refused being in the military out of moral reasons ,you had the option of doing civil service (librarian, working in retirement homes, working for different institutes and mainly non profit organizations) the only thing was that it was about twice as long in comparison with normal service.
Some posts in the military where also longer serving jobs (min. 18 months) , for example if you went for an officer position or as a para-commando or in the navy but these posts where much better payed (at least minimum wage+ bonuses in stead of the usual 5$ per day) and the training was the same as a professional soldier.


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