So, Senator Mitchell's report on performance enhancing drugs in MLB is due tomorrow and rumor has it that there are 50 active and retired players on the list. I also have read that some of them are current free agents, which will make things interesting for off season signings. Who do you think is on the list? It seems like there are always tons of guys that you don't know who are always getting caught, so we will see lots of those. Here are my guesses of some the big names we might see:

Current Players:
Barry Bonds
Sammy Sosa
Roger Clemens
Jason Giambi (admitted)

Past Players (depending on how far they go back)
Jose Canseco (admitted)
Mark McGwire
Jeff Bagwell
Rafael Palmeiro (failed drug test)
Ken Caminiti (admitted, deceased)

It will be release today at 2pm ET, expect to see All-Stars, MVPs, even Hall-of-Fame caliber players named.

ESPN is doing like 5 hours of coverage on this

Apologies, but the morbid curiosity portion of me can't wait to find out.

Oh, Players Association, quit whining about not getting an advanced copy of the report...what did you expect, seeing how you refused to cooperate in the investigations?

I wouldn't be surprised that the likes of Andruw Jones, Roger Clemens, Eric Gagne, and several other players whose statistics suddenly spiked up in the last 15 years get implicated. It appears that ESPN Radio talk show host Colin Cowherd's hunch based on unusual spike in performance stats was correct--players with these spikes were likely users of various forms of steriods and human growth hormone.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 2): several other players whose statistics suddenly spiked up in the last 15 years get implicated.

Well, how many players are there in the league that were around 15 years ago?


Anyways, ROGER CLEMENS is on the list!!




Where are those pesky asterisk people?

EDIT: source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071213/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_mitchell_report

[Edited 2007-12-13 08:04:35]

Do you think this will trigger deeper investigation into the use of steroids in the other major leagues?

YOWza

Quoting YOWza (Reply 4): Do you think this will trigger deeper investigation into the use of steroids in the other major leagues?

Not really. The other leagues were much better about testing, imo.

Possible leaked list here: http://deadspin.com/sports/is-this-t...st-of-players-mentioned-333479.php

OOOOOOH man!! It's like... Christmas morning.

The biggest surprise to me on the unofficial list is Mark Prior. The biggest surprise of someone not on the list is probably Tejada. After Palmiero blamed him for his positive test he got. Good news for the Astros.

Quoting COrocks (Reply 7): The biggest surprise of someone not on the list is probably Tejada.

He is on the list. They messed up the alphabetical order.

Today is the day baseball might die. It won't, because people remain stupid to just throw their money at it, but the game is corrupted for all time. Records mean nothing now.

Quoting D L X (Reply 5): Not really. The other leagues were much better about testing, imo.

Yes and no. Other leagues are better about either covering it up or dealing with violations. How the NBA doesn't have a bigger problem is beyond me.

Quoting D L X (Reply 8): He is on the list. They messed up the alphabetical order.

Crap - I missed it. Wishful thinking I guess.

Possible leaked list here: http://deadspin.com/sports/is-this-t...f-players-mentioned-333479.php

I don't see LaMarr Hoyt's name on the list.

Wrong drugs...nevermind.

Quoting COrocks (Reply 7): The biggest surprise to me on the unofficial list is Mark Prior.

I'm not. He hasn't been able to remain healthy since the Cubs went deep into the playoffs...

Quoting Slider (Reply 9): How the NBA doesn't have a bigger problem is beyond me.

I don't know why it would. I am not sure what advantage you would really get on the NBA court. Pure strength is not the most important characteristic for a NBA player. Plus, one of the side effects is decreased flexibility, which I think is very important in basketball.

Quoting D L X (Reply 3): Anyways, ROGER CLEMENS is on the list!! Where are those pesky asterisk people?

He is just as big of an ass as Barry Bonds..should get the same punishment baseball record wise as Bonds (if he gets any).

And...if that truly is the list...there is one surprise. For me anyway. I figured David Ortiz would be on it...

It is going to be interesting to see if MLB does anything to the individual players over this. I am not sure they can suspend someone without a positive test result or very, very strong proof. I guess it depends on the evidence. I am sure the union is going ape-shit today.

I do expect further tightening of the rules and testing procedures because of the report.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 15): I figured David Ortiz would be on it...

Well, George Mitchell is on the board of directors for the Boston Red Sox, so maybe no surprise about Ortiz...

Quoting Slider (Reply 9): How the NBA doesn't have a bigger problem is beyond me.

They're too busy making babies...   

Tom at MSY

report is out http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2007/images/12/13/mitchell.report.pdf

MLB officials are already rejecting portions of Mitchell's report, saying that several of the people are confirmed non-users. Methinks Mitchell got lazy and just listened to whatever that talentless whiner Jason Grimsley told him

http://www.wnbc.com/sports/14845845/detail.html

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 2): Eric Gagne, and several other players whose statistics suddenly spiked up in the last 15 years get implicated.

Gagne was converted from starter to closer when the Dodgers realized he was much better for a shorter period of time. That is why his numbers got so good

well, the PDF starting on page 194 is where he starts naming names. I didnt really read it all, but it looks like there is evidence in the form of canceled cheques and what not for a lot of the people...

those named include keving brown, gange, pettite, segui...

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 12): I'm not. He hasn't been able to remain healthy since the Cubs went deep into the playoffs...

Mark Prior and Kerry Wood (who showed up on the 'unofficial' list) are not in the Mitchell report

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20): MLB officials are already rejecting portions of Mitchell's report, saying that several of the people are confirmed non-users.

The article you posted says nothing about MLB refuting the Mitchell report. It says they are refuting the leaked list that was floating around.

I am glad to see that Jeff Bagwell was not on the list. Although I still think he probably did it and just did not get caught.

Interesting that 2 guys talked about so many. It stinks of hyperbole.

Quoting COrocks (Reply 23): I am glad to see that Jeff Bagwell was not on the list. Although I still think he probably did it and just did not get caught.

I don't necessarily think Bagwell did drugs. Just because someone was a great player doesn't make them a 'roid head.

Quoting COrocks (Reply 23): The article you posted says nothing about MLB refuting the Mitchell report. It says they are refuting the leaked list that was floating around.

And who would have leaked the list.

Ken Caminiti is on the list...

Stealing a quote from Major League

"This guy here is dead"
------

Why even drop his name when he is long gone?

Local sports radio station is saying this will keep Clemens out of the hall of fame. They also mentioned how he started in 2000 and they know why he threw the broken bat at Piazza during the world series.

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 25): Why even drop his name when he is long gone?

It is pretty sad how they keep his name around as one to throw around. Caminiti, who I was never a fan of because he spent his best years with the Dodgers' number 2 rival, The Padres, was a tortured man for whom steroid use was the least of his problems. His battle with cocaine addiction ultimately ended both his career and his life at way too early an age, and it is sad that they keep using him as a way of saying "see, everyone must be on steroids." Whatever anyone thinks of him, he seemed to truly love the game when he was on the field and played his heart out, which was evidenced by his 3 straight Gold Gloves that everyone seems to forget about.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20): MLB officials are already rejecting portions of Mitchell's report

There's a shocker. They've been denying it's a problem for years, why change now?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20): Methinks Mitchell got lazy and just listened to whatever that talentless whiner Jason Grimsley told him

So Grimsley told him what the cancelled checks looked like (even though they were written to and deposited by someone else), down to every subtle nuance and was so descriptive that Mitchell vividly remembered everything, went home and perfectly replicated about twenty checks. Good call.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24): And who would have leaked the list.

The earlier list wasn't "leaked", it was fabricated.

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 25): Why even drop his name when he is long gone?

What's the big deal? He admitted using steroids - it's not like this is a revelation. The report isn't about individual players, it's about steroid use in baseball - and Caminiti's premature death certianly helps illustrate how big of a problem drug use can be.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24): I don't necessarily think Bagwell did drugs. Just because someone was a great player doesn't make them a 'roid head.

I am basing my opinion based on seeing him play for years as a Houston fan. I am not being blind to the signs just because I liked him as a player (kind of like every Barry Bonds fan on earth). He displayed all of the characteristics - got big, long term injury issues, etc. When his named showed up on the early list, every sports radio person in Houston said they were not surprised. All Houston fans that I know agree that he probably did it. His association with Caminiti did not help his case in people's eyes either.

Quoting WellHung (Reply 29): and Caminiti's premature death certianly helps illustrate how big of a problem drug use can be.

Drug use. Caminiti's issues were related to long term alcoholism and cocaine abuse and he died due to acute overdose of cocaine and opiates. Steroids were the least of his troubles.

Quoting COrocks (Reply 30): He displayed all of the characteristics - got big, long term injury issues, etc.

"The characteristics." Just what do you think those are? Bags had 1 really bad injury, the one that ended his career, and he likely would have recovered from that and played again had the Astros not been so greedy as to want to collect on the insurance policy they had out on his contract. Other than that, he was one of the most durable players in baseball after he started wearing the protective glove on his left hand. Further, he really didn't grow all that much. Players always will get bigger as they get older and their metabolism slows down. This can actually be a good thing and a slower metabolism combined with a strong workout plan will mean bigger muscles.

Young Bagwell.



Older Bagwell



As you can see, not much of a difference.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31): Drug use. Caminiti's issues were related to long term alcoholism and cocaine abuse and he died due to acute overdose of cocaine and opiates.

And you are aware that the report talks about general drug use and policies and their relation to the evolving steroid policy, right?

B. Baseball’s Drug Policies Before 2002 ................................................................. 24
1. Bowie Kuhn and Baseball’s First Drug Policies...................................... 26
2. The Ferguson Jenkins Decision ............................................................... 29
3. Cocaine Suspensions of 1983-84............................................................. 31
4. The 1984 Joint Drug Program.................................................................. 34
5. Drug Policies Under Peter Ueberroth ...................................................... 36
6. 1991: Fay Vincent Adds Steroids to Baseball’s Drug Policy.................. 41
7. Baseball’s Drug Policies Under Bud Selig .............................................. 42
8. 2001 Minor League Drug Prevention and Treatment Program............... 44
C. Informal Reasonable Cause Testing .................................................................... 47
D. The Joint Drug Program Under the Basic Agreement, 2002 to Present .............. 50

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31): Steroids were the least of his troubles.

Well, he used steroids and admitted to it, which is why he's mentioned in the steroid section of the report. Whether he's dead or not is not an issue. It's not like he would have defended himself. He already admitted to it.

Quoting WellHung (Reply 32): And you are aware that the report talks about general drug use and policies and their relation to the evolving steroid policy, right?

Yes I am, though the focus is on Steroids and HGH.

Quoting WellHung (Reply 29): What's the big deal? He admitted using steroids - it's not like this is a revelation. The report isn't about individual players, it's about steroid use in baseball - and Caminiti's premature death certianly helps illustrate how big of a problem drug use can be.

I've found things like this tough to swallow; the guy can't defend himself, or contribute to the discussion. So I'm hoping Mitchell won't be pinning things onto him as that is not fair to the guys family.

(*)

This lot can either come clean, or people will form their own opinions.

Every single one of them should not be allowed to be enshrined in the HOF.

Barry Bonds should have the asterisk placed next to his name if not have his record dismissed. Before certain individuals get their knickers in an uproar, I don't care if they are Dominican, Venezuelan, Mexican, Cuban, Asian, Black, WASPs whatever. They only thing they deserve is scorn.

It is a messed up think where the national past time is a rig, and the kids that look up to some of these athletes have turds for role models.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31): Astros not been so greedy as to want to collect on the insurance policy they had out on his contract.

He would have never played again. He could hardly throw the ball to home plate. His shoulder is totally gone.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31): As you can see, not much of a difference.

There is a big difference, but it is hard to tell from the pictures. I have met him several times in person over the years. It is easy to tell that he has grown an un-natural amount, just like many other guys on the list.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31): Players always will get bigger as they get older and their metabolism slows down.

And even more telling is that now that he is done, he is about 30 pounds lighter - that cannot all be from not lifting weights anymore.

I am a big Bagwell fan, I would not say this lightly - I am just a realist. As I said, most sports fans in Houston agree that he was probably doing something.

Just my opinion.

Quoting COrocks (Reply 36): He would have never played again. He could hardly throw the ball to home plate. His shoulder is totally gone.

He could have ended up a DH in the AL.

Quoting COrocks (Reply 36): And even more telling is that now that he is done, he is about 30 pounds lighter - that cannot all be from not lifting weights anymore.

Actually, that can definitely happen from a combination of not lifting and not eating as much. My normal weight for years hovered around 20-25 pounds less than Bagwell's playing weight of 195, but I could easily put on 10 pounds with 3-6 months of hard training and increased caloric intake, and I have never taken drugs. Playing and training at the level Bagwell does, combined with the fact that he is older, a 30 pound delta isn't much, especially when you consider how little he likely worked out during the injury year.

Quoting COrocks (Reply 16): It is going to be interesting to see if MLB does anything to the individual players over this. I am not sure they can suspend someone without a positive test result or very, very strong proof. I guess it depends on the evidence. I am sure the union is going ape-shit today. I do expect further tightening of the rules and testing procedures because of the report.

The first and most important thing MLB has to do is put testing in the hands of a third party with integrity. No more tipping off the teams two days before the testers arrive.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20): MLB officials are already rejecting portions of Mitchell's report, saying that several of the people are confirmed non-users. Methinks Mitchell got lazy and just listened to whatever that talentless whiner Jason Grimsley told him

What a shocker that you are among the earliest deniers.

I can't help but notice that a number of Bonds apologists that put up such a fuss over the legitimacy of his HR record and the asterisking of his "record" ball a few months back haven't posted here. Have we no compelling counterarguments?

Good going, MLB. Apparently, pretending the problem didn't exist didn't do much to make it go away.

First of all, how much 'truth' is there in this report. Very few players would speak about their or others use of performance enhancing drugs (PED's) due to a code of 'ometa' like in the Mafia to never turn in your friends in the group and fear of criminal prosecution. The sports media made sure any knowledge was buried. The MLB owners and players profited hugely by the use of PED's. The fans loved the 'juiced' play.
The real losers will be the intrigue of records and the players who used these drugs. For players, even if they didn't use any PED's, they will never be seen as clean. Then there is the possible long term health effects including shorter lives and who knows what they may have done to children they fathered from the use of PED's. Let us hope the Mitchell Report leads to stronger PED testing and an attitude by all that the use of PED is not only illegal and dangerous, but immoral and hurts the integrity of the game.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 35):

Asterisk one, asterisk all. And I mean ALL of baseball. Look at that list, then note that Sen. Mitchell said this was an incomplete list. He said this is simply the list they KNOW is involved.

BTW, Geoffrey Toobin just made an excellent point about the Hall of Fame: Pete Rose has been kept out of the hall for a decade for betting on himself. BANNED! Over something that had no impact on the game. These guys cheated. NONE of them should be admitted to the hall before Rose, if ever. Although, I'd prefer they get inducted, but only into a supplemental wing clearly denoted as "Steroid Era". In fact, I'd add ANYONE admitted into the hall for the next 10 years into the Steroid Era wing, because if you didn't juice, you still sat quiet when everyone juiced around you.

Quoting COrocks (Reply 16): It is going to be interesting to see if MLB does anything to the individual players over this.

Maybe, but as long as Selig is around, I don't think so. Selig is too soft and all he cares about is revenue for the MLB. Selig is the main root of the problem, I say this because of the fact that he has allowed this to happen and did not take any action against it. He didn't have the guts to get rid of Barry Bonds in the last two years. Why? It all boils down to MONEY.

I hope this is a wake-up call to the MLB world. Those active players who were named in Mitchell's report should be banned for a year without pay. And remove Selig from the Commish office.

If Clemens and any of these other guys really want to establish that they're clean they should sue MLB and Mitchell's committee. Certainly this is at minimum slander. The problem is that he'd then be subject to an under oath deposition. Lie unde oath and be prepared for the consequences.

Anyone who's not willing to fight for their name is in my opinion admitting some degree of guilt.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37): He could have ended up a DH in the AL.

Not for $17 million a year, which was his contract at the time.

Quoting D L X (Reply 41): Asterisk one, asterisk all. And I mean ALL of baseball. Look at that list, then note that Sen. Mitchell said this was an incomplete list. He said this is simply the list they KNOW is involved. BTW, Geoffrey Toobin just made an excellent point about the Hall of Fame: Pete Rose has been kept out of the hall for a decade for betting on himself. BANNED! Over something that had no impact on the game. These guys cheated. NONE of them should be admitted to the hall before Rose, if ever. Although, I'd prefer they get inducted, but only into a supplemental wing clearly denoted as "Steroid Era". In fact, I'd add ANYONE admitted into the hall for the next 10 years into the Steroid Era wing, because if you didn't juice, you still sat quiet when everyone juiced around you.

DLX, weren't you the one who argued that branding #756 with an asterisk was an abomination? This seems to be a little bit of a switch--to label everyone as a cheater even though for many players, there is no proof whatsoever of their involvement with PEDs, just speculation.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 45): DLX, weren't you the one who argued that branding #756 with an asterisk was an abomination?

Yes. Defacing _the ball_ is an abomination. Acknowledging that Bonds used steroids is just acknowledging fact. That's the difference I see.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 45): This seems to be a little bit of a switch--to label everyone as a cheater even though for many players, there is no proof whatsoever of their involvement with PEDs, just speculation.

I've always been of the mindset of treating them the same. I've always said that I believed Bonds was being the scapegoat when the entire industry, including the pitchers he was facing, were juiced. So now that the list is public, I say to all those that wanted to throw Bonds under the bus that they must do so consistently. They all cheated, they all get labeled.

I watched the report from Betablue (TR to come) at FL340 somewhere over the midwest. Very sad indeed. I'm just hoping those that are named are in fact guilty. I'd hate to see bad players named as the result of a witch hunt, with everyone pointing fingers just to save themselves.

Quoting D L X (Reply 46): I've always said that I believed Bonds was being the scapegoat when the entire industry, including the pitchers he was facing, were juiced. So now that the list is public, I say to all those that wanted to throw Bonds under the bus that they must do so consistently. They all cheated, they all get labeled.

Fair enough. As I think about it more, either all of these guys like Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Palmeiro get in the HOF, or all of them don't. At first I thought the concept of a separate wing dedicated to players from this "era" was absurd, but in some ways it might be the only way to recognize the best players among a tainted era.

All this report proves is that you still need natural abilities to play well. Some of those pitchers could not strike out a little leaguer and some of those hitters could not hit water if they fell out of a boat.

PIA777