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Topic: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2008-07-17 13:49:24 and read 2929 times.

If You Build It, the Jobs Won't Come

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1216...60331.html?mod=hpp_us_inside_today

"Sports economists have long argued that publicly financed stadiums are a waste of taxpayer money. And they have the data to prove it."

"Yes, stadiums do create high-paying construction jobs for a year or two. But the vast majority of long-term employment is low-wage concession jobs. A Congressional Research Service study of the Baltimore Ravens stadium found that each job created cost the state $127,000. By comparison, Maryland's Sunny Day Fund created jobs for about $6,000 each."

"But perhaps the best argument against publicly financed stadiums is straight out of Econ 101: Opportunity cost."

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2008-07-17 22:12:56 and read 2822 times.

And John Maynard Keynes once said that building totally useless pyramids is a good way to promote economic growth. . .

Go figure.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2008-07-18 00:06:45 and read 2784 times.

I love how we build publicly funded stadiums in this country but refuse to build publicly-funded mass transit.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: PIA777
Posted 2008-07-18 00:30:31 and read 2779 times.

I dont think the tax payers should pay for new Stadiums especially since the comman man can't even afford to go see a game with the way ticket prices are these days. The average
fan is being pushed aside. New stadiums should be paid for by their owners.

PIA777

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2008-07-18 00:39:42 and read 2776 times.



Quoting PIA777 (Reply 3):
I dont think the tax payers should pay for new Stadiums especially since the comman man can't even afford to go see a game with the way ticket prices are these days. The average
fan is being pushed aside. New stadiums should be paid for by their owners.

Yup. People forget something:

Sports is ENTERTAINMENT. Nothing more. It is neither necessary nor that beneficial to our economy, security, health, or well-being.

Go ahead. Geek out on it. Go to every single game and even miss the birth of your own child to go to a game (yeah, a few of those guys exist). Be able to quote every play of every single game since 1946.

But PLEASE don't ask me to pay for it.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: MCIGuy
Posted 2008-07-18 01:12:42 and read 2763 times.

Kansas City, MO's last mayor was a spending nutjob. We built a brand-new arena, the Sprint Center, in downtown, it was completed last fall. I attended the Van Halen reunion concert there two weeks after it opened and the facilty is nice, really nice, but our old arena was about the same size and we were making do nicely with it. They built it just on the hopes that an NBA or NHL team would come to KC but it ain't happenin' so far. Our orginal arena (Kemper) was built for the Kansas City (Sacramento) Kings and they moved ten years after it was built. Our NHL team, The Scouts, are now the New Jersey Devils. Whatever happened to learning the lessons of the past? The Sprint Center is mainly being paid for by a substantial hotel and rental car tax but I'm sure visitors don't appreciate that, especially when we didn't need it.
The same mayor luckily didn't get her way when she wanted to build a new baseball stadium downtown so Kansas City could control the Royals revenue instead of the county. Kaufmann Stadium is still a big, nice facility, even if the Royals do suck.  

Sprint Center:
http://image60.webshots.com/60/1/87/22/2327187220012561957SIJaxL_fs.jpg

Kemper Arena:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/Kemper-arena1.jpg/800px-Kemper-arena1.jpg

Kaufmann Stadium:


[Edited 2008-07-18 01:53:12]

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: STLGph
Posted 2008-07-18 02:00:44 and read 2728 times.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):

building a stadium is nothing to do with jobs that come after the fact.

it has *everything* to do with taxes.

taxes paid on ...
ticket costs
parking rates
concession costs
souvenir costs

taxes paid on ...
people who travel into the town to see an event, or attend a convention, or anything related going on ... staying at a hotel and pay the city's luxury tax. then happen to also eat something. or buy something from a business.

taxes paid on ...
people paying to use the stadium for whatever the reason.

and most importantly ...
taxes paid by people who work those low end concession jobs.


it all adds up.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 5):
Sprint Center, in downtown, it was completed last fall. I attended the Van Halen reunion concert there two weeks after it opened and the facilty is nice, really nice, but our old arena was about the same size and we were making do nicely with it

"we were making do nicely with it."

perhaps, but not so fast.

before the Sprint Center was built a majority of your concerts were playing Sandstone Amphitheater out in Bonner Springs.

a major of your big large arena shows weren't coming to town. now they are.

the Sprint Center has attracted a large number of big name concerts ... several exhibition sporting events, and convention business is up. ticket sales are beyond expectations. your big sporting team hasn't come ... and it wasn't expected right away ... as matter of fact, it's not even a priority of the first three year plan. right now the Sprint Center is working to prove itself as a valuable tool and asset to the downtown Kansas City economy and thus far it's working.

i love the Kemper Arena and saw many great concerts there, but it is pretty much a dive.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: Connies4ever
Posted 2008-07-18 03:42:52 and read 2710 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
I love how we build publicly funded stadiums in this country but refuse to build publicly-funded mass transit.

 checkmark  if the gajillionaire owners of football or baseball or whatever teams want a new playpen, let them build it themselves. My home town of Winnipeg is mulling over a new football stadium near the downtown area. The proposal is 2/3 government money, 1/3 private, and the private investor gets the team (now owned by city like Green Bay). From my p.o.v. it's hard to make a business case for a $150-160M facility that's used only a limited number of times per year.

That said, the existing playpen is truly a dump. And 50+ years old.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2008-07-18 04:26:05 and read 2697 times.

This is one of my favorite subjects to rant about.
Here in the NY City area, Yankee stadium, Shea Stadium, Giants Stadium are all being replaced with new structures and Meadaowlands Arena (IZOD Center/Contential Airlines Arena) while being used by the NJ Nets for a few more years, there is the new Prudential Center in Newark that is basically replacing it. There is about $4 BILLION involved in these projects. Last year, the people of the City of NY said no to a new $2 Billion stadium project on the West side of Manhattan proposed to be a new home for the Jets NFL team. Some of the pressure to put in new stadiums is due to the 'jobs created' (mainly short term construction jobs), profits to rich construction companies owners, politicans wanting to attract people to downtown areas vs. suburbs. They forget the real feelings of taxpayers who just want lower taxes or at least the money spent on something they need like replacement of old schools and so on.

Most of these new Arenas/Stadiums are due to pressure from owners of the primary tenant teams who use extortion threats of moving out unless they get a new facility - one that must have more income to them rather than to the government owners. Most of that more income is usually from cramming in luxary boxes or requiring 'seat licenses' thus pricing out the facility to many sports fans. That means more ticket brokers/scalpers owning the seats and the boxes almost always owned by corporations to use the access to effectively bribe customers and politicans. That also means working class people no longer able to go to live games.
I think we must change the Federal tax laws to eliminate or substantually reduce the deductability of sports tickets and luxary box fees to end this madness.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: Seb146
Posted 2008-07-18 09:49:31 and read 2639 times.



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
Most of these new Arenas/Stadiums are due to pressure from owners of the primary tenant teams who use extortion threats of moving out unless they get a new facility

The same thing happened in Seattle with the Seahawks and the Mariners. "Build us a new stadium or we leave." King County ended up raising sales tax and other taxes to pay for Safeco Field and Qwest Stadium. Those two buildings went up in a few years. Yet, light rail went way over budget and way behind schedule. They could have been building their third line by now, but the owners just had to have a new stadium for each sport. True, Kingdome was falling apart, but did the people of King County really need two new stadiums? How many people actually use the stadiums? I lived in Auburn and I never went to either stadium. A lot of people never use the stadiums but still have to pay for them through higher sales tax. It makes no sense to me.

In Portland, the only one that seemed to want a new baseball stadium is our former mayor, Vera Katz. Since she left office, the city has been focused on housing and transportation issues. Neither the Vikings, Timbers nor the Beavers have made much of a fuss about PGE Park. For its age, it is a nice stadium downtown AND it has two light rail stops served by two lines and (I think) four major bus lines.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: RJdxer
Posted 2008-07-18 09:54:39 and read 2632 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
I love how we build publicly funded stadiums in this country but refuse to build publicly-funded mass transit.

How much money does a publicly funded mass transit system lose?

Quoting STLGph (Reply 6):
it all adds up.

Holy S--t you must be wrong because we agree.  cheeky 

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: Pope
Posted 2008-07-18 10:11:15 and read 2628 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):

I love how we build publicly funded stadiums in this country but refuse to build publicly-funded mass transit.

That's the exact debate going on in Miami right now.

http://www.miamiherald.com/457/story/607497.html
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miami_dade/story/608749.html

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: SlamClick
Posted 2008-07-18 10:19:27 and read 2615 times.

And the King of them all - the "National" bowling stadium in Reno Nevada.

It was built on the taxpayers' backs and used ONCE.

Oh, sorry, twice.

The movie "Kingpin" with Bill Murray and Woody Harrelson was partly filmed there.

Locals cannot bowl there. No revenue recovery is permitted.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: RJdxer
Posted 2008-07-18 10:20:14 and read 2613 times.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 12):
Locals cannot bowl there. No revenue recovery is permitted.

That's the big silver building off the main drag right?

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: STLGph
Posted 2008-07-18 11:10:30 and read 2592 times.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 7):
my p.o.v. it's hard to make a business case for a $150-160M facility that's used only a limited number of times per year.

how many seats are you looking at?

your current stadium has 50,000 with "temporary seating."

on a rough estimate of use, it can pay for itself back in tax revenues in probably 9 to 11 years.

[Edited 2008-07-18 11:10:45]

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: STLGph
Posted 2008-07-18 11:13:02 and read 2588 times.



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):

 Smile

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2008-07-18 12:04:39 and read 2568 times.



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
How much money does a publicly funded mass transit system lose?

Not nearly as much as a publicly-funded road system.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: FlyDeltaJets87
Posted 2008-07-18 12:16:13 and read 2561 times.

And what about the other business that comes as a result of that new stadium? Tax revenue from income generated by the tickets and usage? Tax Revenue from the use of restaurants ad hotels from people who come from out of town to see the game? What about tax revenue generated from jobs of the people who work at that stadium?

On top of that, many sports arenas are used for more than just sports, especially indoor ones. Concerts, Conventions, other types of sporting events besides the primary use (such as boxing matches).

It's called an "investment".   The city or state spends money now with the idea that they'll generate more revenue from it later.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
But PLEASE don't ask me to pay for it.

To think about how many things we could apply that logic too.

[Edited 2008-07-18 12:16:54]

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-07-18 12:20:42 and read 2554 times.

You know what the really funny thing is about these "publically" funded stadiums is? Most of the money comes from exorbitant taxes on things like rental cars and hotel rooms that are generally paid by tourists and business people who are among the least likely to benefit from the stadiums. It is a modern version of taxation without representation.

My favorite stadium is still Dodger Stadium, which has its own shady history but was built completely with the Dodgers' money.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: 57AZ
Posted 2008-07-18 12:28:56 and read 2549 times.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 17):
And what about the other business that comes as a result of that new stadium?

Not in Tucson, Arizona. We have Tucson Electric Park where the Tucson Sidewinders play and the Chicago White Sox have held Spring Training. The park is located in the wrong part of town-far away from any hotels and restaurants with NO public transit service of any sorts. The Tucson City Council pumps money into the stadium on an annual basis just to keep the lights on and attendance is VERY low (see aforementioned reasons). Non-sports related public events bring in a little money, but not enough to cover the costs of operation.

Same goes for Chattanooga, Tennessee's university new football stadium-built by the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga. The new stadium is located at least three miles from campus and has no public transit linking it to the campus. And people wondered why student attendance was so low? The stadium AFAIK has not hosted any significant non-sporting events to bring in revenue.

About the only events that bring money to Tucson are the annual Fourth Avenue Street Fairs, the Gem and Mineral Show and perhaps the HOG Rally. Chattanooga has some events that bring in the crowds-the main one being the two week long Riverbend festival that has gate attendance numbers in excess of one million attendees annually.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: StuckInCA
Posted 2008-07-18 12:45:41 and read 2542 times.



Quoting STLGph (Reply 14):
it can pay for itself back in tax revenues in probably 9 to 11 years

Which is about the amount of time it takes before there will be demands from resident sports teams to build a new one. You really didn't address opportunity cost either.

In Seattle's case, after renovating Key arena to NBA's specifications in the 90's, they were told it would take a 500 Million dollar publicly funded arena this time around. Bye Sonics... or whatever you're called now.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: MCIGuy
Posted 2008-07-18 13:06:11 and read 2533 times.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 6):
right now the Sprint Center is working to prove itself as a valuable tool and asset to the downtown Kansas City economy and thus far it's working

Well, not really yet:

The Sprint Center is Failing

Quoting STLGph (Reply 6):
i love the Kemper Arena and saw many great concerts there, but it is pretty much a dive.

Now this I can't argue with. I had a backstage pass to Van Halen in '04 and I was shocked at how it looked behind the scenes. There were huge rusticles hanging from pipes. Seems like that's just neglect though, and could be fixed. They could have done a remodel of Kemper and thrown in some carpeting and LCD screens and wham, the Sprint Center. The Foo Fighters are playing Kemper tomorrow night. Sprint Center rent too high?

Quoting STLGph (Reply 6):
before the Sprint Center was built a majority of your concerts were playing Sandstone Amphitheater out in Bonner Springs.

That did seem to be the case for some reason, and Sandstone is just the worst IMO, I won't even bother with it anymore. There seems to be renewed interest in the Starlight Theater though. Rush just played there and there are a few big names lined up this summer.  

[Edited 2008-07-18 13:06:34]

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: PC12Fan
Posted 2008-07-18 13:16:54 and read 2519 times.

When the new Busch Stadium was going up in St. Louis, local media interviewed an old man who was against public funding for the new stadium. He made an excellent point with this statement. "They say it's a business right? Well, I don't see them granting public funding to build a new factory to anyone that asks for it. Why should we have to pay for something that some of us may never set foot in in the first place?"

What gripes me now is that the same people asking for the money could probably still pay the same amount multiple times.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: Connies4ever
Posted 2008-07-18 13:19:05 and read 2519 times.



Quoting STLGph (Reply 14):
Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 7):
my p.o.v. it's hard to make a business case for a $150-160M facility that's used only a limited number of times per year.

how many seats are you looking at?

your current stadium has 50,000 with "temporary seating."

on a rough estimate of use, it can pay for itself back in tax revenues in probably 9 to 11 years.

Winnipeg Stadium (actually rebranded as Canad Inn Stadium a couple years ago, local hotel chain) has ~29,900 permanent seats. For the Grey Cup in 1991 they took it up to about 52,000 with temps in both end zones, but there were issues regarding safety. So, when the Grey Cup was held in Winnipeg again in 1998 and 2006, seating was limited to about 46,000. The new stadium is projected as about a 35,000 seat facility.

Most CFL parks are around 30-35,000, with the exceptions being Montreal (Olympic) about 65,000, Edmonton (Commonwealth) ditto, Vancouver (BC Place) 58,000, and Toronto (ROgers Centre) about 45,000. But Rogers has a lot of seats with poor sightlines for football - it was built as a baseball park.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 17):
And what about the other business that comes as a result of that new stadium? Tax revenue from income generated by the tickets and usage? Tax Revenue from the use of restaurants ad hotels from people who come from out of town to see the game? What about tax revenue generated from jobs of the people who work at that stadium?

On top of that, many sports arenas are used for more than just sports, especially indoor ones. Concerts, Conventions, other types of sporting events besides the primary use (such as boxing matches).

I realize that sports venues can be used for other purposes, esp. indoor ones as you point out. Winnipeg built a beautiful new indoor facility that opened in 2005, MTS Centre, right on the main drag downtown, and it has been a huge success. Was built along the lines of 2/3 public, 1/3 private money per football proposal. But the big difference is that the arena is operated by a public agency, not a private one, and profits roll directly back into public/private coffers per the cost-sharing formula used to build it (I believe).

Same idea used for the downtown baseball stadium (8,500 seats, AA indy ball team) that opened in 2001.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-07-18 13:34:23 and read 2508 times.



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):

How much money does a publicly funded mass transit system lose?

How much money does a publicly funded road lose? 100% of investment. How much money does a publicly funded mass transit system save the tax payers? Billions.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: FlyDeltaJets87
Posted 2008-07-18 13:40:24 and read 2501 times.



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 20):
Which is about the amount of time it takes before there will be demands from resident sports teams to build a new one. You really didn't address opportunity cost either.

Oh really? How long was Yankee Stadium in use....since 1923. Yes, it was renovated in the 1970s even the renovation was used for almost 30 years. And how many events besides baseball games were held there?
Cinergy Field (Riverfront Stadium) in Cincinnati was used for 32 years.

And that's just two examples.

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 19):

You cite problems with market research and location. The golden rule of real-estate is what? Location, Location, Location. Someone should have been smarter to build the stadium on the better side of town or closer to the facility its supposed to serve.
On top of that, as an additional argument to UT-C - it is a public university, which means the school is funded through taxpayer dollars of the state, which means it makes perfect sense to use taxpayer money to help build that stadium.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 22):
When the new Busch Stadium was going up in St. Louis, local media interviewed an old man who was against public funding for the new stadium. He made an excellent point with this statement. "They say it's a business right? Well, I don't see them granting public funding to build a new factory to anyone that asks for it. Why should we have to pay for something that some of us may never set foot in in the first place?"

The company building that large factory may not receive direct money from the public funds, but there is still quite often public assistance for large projects - it just comes in different forms, such as tax breaks, land donations, etc.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: Alias1024
Posted 2008-07-18 14:14:06 and read 2549 times.



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 9):
In Portland, the only one that seemed to want a new baseball stadium is our former mayor, Vera Katz. Since she left office, the city has been focused on housing and transportation issues. Neither the Vikings, Timbers nor the Beavers have made much of a fuss about PGE Park. For its age, it is a nice stadium downtown AND it has two light rail stops served by two lines and (I think) four major bus lines.

Well get ready, because the proposal to get the Beavers a new stadium and renovate PGE Park will probably be out by the end of the month. Getting the Beavers out of PGE would be a key to the Timbers moving up to Major League Soccer.

The owner of the Timbers and Beavers has been in talks with city officials about it, and has said a proposal would be presented by the end of the summer. So far, it sounds like things are moving along nicely at city hall. Sam Adams getting elected Mayor is a big plus for the plan, since he has acknowledged being a soccer and Timbers fan, and has sounded enthusiastic about the city helping make MLS a reality in Portland.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: SlamClick
Posted 2008-07-18 14:23:22 and read 2546 times.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
How much money does a publicly funded road lose? 100% of investment.

Well that certainly ignores a lot of tax revenues that would not be collected if there were no roads including every last dime of gasoline taxes. Have you licensed an 18-wheeler lately?

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-07-18 14:59:19 and read 2531 times.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 27):
Well that certainly ignores a lot of tax revenues that would not be collected if there were no roads including every last dime of gasoline taxes. Have you licensed an 18-wheeler lately?

Actually, I agree with you and don't have a problem with funding road construction, and I think tolling roads for passenger cars is ridiculous. That said, there should be funding parity between road construction and the construction of other transport infrastructure.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: AirCop
Posted 2008-07-18 15:46:47 and read 2510 times.



Quoting 57AZ (Reply 19):
We have Tucson Electric Park where the Tucson Sidewinders play and the Chicago White Sox have held Spring Training.

How did you forget the Diamondbacks having spring training at TEP? I seen buses stop at the park during games..but then again Hi Corbett is a dump.

Can anyone name a stadium/arena that operates at a profit for the government agency (city, county) that funded it?

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-07-18 15:49:43 and read 2512 times.



Quoting AirCop (Reply 29):

Can anyone name a stadium/arena that operates at a profit for the government agency (city, county) that funded it?

Actually, quite a few of them do.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: AirCop
Posted 2008-07-18 16:12:39 and read 2496 times.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
Actually, quite a few of them do.

A profit for the taxpayers that funded them, not a profit for the team owners. Take a football stadium for an NFL team. How many days a year is the facility operated? 30/40 out of 365? Local government still has to pick up the upkeep. Who gets the parking fees, the fancy skyboxes, profit from sales at the facility, the team does. Anyways kudos, to the San Francisco Giants, Miami Dolphins that constructed their own stadiums without taxpayers funds.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-07-18 16:18:54 and read 2496 times.



Quoting AirCop (Reply 31):

A profit for the taxpayers that funded them, not a profit for the team owners.

It really depends. Further, like I said before, the taxpayers that funded the stadiums are often those who never get any benefit from them.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 31):
Take a football stadium for an NFL team. How many days a year is the facility operated? 30/40 out of 365?

Depends. Many stadiums are used for other purposes.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 31):
Local government still has to pick up the upkeep.

It depends on the lease deal.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2008-07-18 17:35:26 and read 2467 times.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 27):
Well that certainly ignores a lot of tax revenues that would not be collected if there were no roads including every last dime of gasoline taxes. Have you licensed an 18-wheeler lately?

And you are ignoring the sort of tax revenues that are gained by improving transport and commerce when you have good mass transit, too.

I would submit that a good mass transit system probably generates more tax revenues than a road does.

Europe does it; why aren't they bankrupt?

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2008-07-18 17:42:19 and read 2462 times.



Quoting Pope (Reply 11):

Instead of ''New Money for New Projects,'' most of the money has been spent on routine operations. Hundreds of millions of new dollars were reallocated to repair old problems, upgrading trains and fare-box equipment that wasn't properly maintained for the two decades prior to the vote, the newspaper found.

Why am I not surprised? They built something with no thought to profitability and now the thing is a money pit, running deficits and sucking in more and more taxes to keep it afloat. Doing the same thing with more money is the exact opposite to what technology accomplishes.

This makes us all poorer.

[Edited 2008-07-18 17:52:57]

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: STLGph
Posted 2008-07-18 18:03:54 and read 2450 times.



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 21):
Well, not really yet:

The Sprint Center is Failing

talk to the people at AEG, and then go look at their initial business plan.

Sprint Center is only failing to this person because there isn't an event there booked every night. and there's not going to be as of right now ... fall/winter concert tours don't start getting announced or booked until September/October.

shows that played there over the first winter were solid on ticket sales.

Sprint Center does face one problem for booking events ... and that's mentioned in the next response.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 21):

That did seem to be the case for some reason, and Sandstone is just the worst IMO, I won't even bother with it anymore. There seems to be renewed interest in the Starlight Theater though. Rush just played there and there are a few big names lined up this summer.



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 21):
The Foo Fighters are playing Kemper tomorrow night. Sprint Center rent too high?

not necessarily. some bands have a choice and preference in some venues over others.
that and Global Spectrum manages the facility and probably offered Kemper as part of a "package deal" in addition to their other venues.

Global Spectrum is the aforementioned problem I was talking about. if there is one strong element of competition that would pit the Kemper Arena vs. Sprint Center when it comes to attracting names and events, Global Spectrum has strong industry pull and connections with promoters and acts themselves.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: Aa757first
Posted 2008-07-21 16:02:54 and read 2319 times.



Quoting STLGph (Reply 6):

That's along the lines I was thinking. It seems very incomplete to base this study just on jobs created and not the contribution made to the local economy as a whole.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: STLGph
Posted 2008-07-21 17:48:41 and read 2291 times.



Quoting Aa757first (Reply 36):

mm-hmm  Smile

most of the time the part timers that work at arenas have other jobs and means of employment.
joe blow goes to work mon-fri at his "main job." he is downtown. supporting businesses, paying taxes. goes to another job at night 2 nights a week or whatever. does the same thing.

and if joe blow doesn't want the job, it fits in nice with a government welfare/work or work/education program.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: Dc-9-10
Posted 2008-07-21 21:17:06 and read 2248 times.



Quoting AirCop (Reply 29):
Can anyone name a stadium/arena that operates at a profit for the government agency (city, county) that funded it?

Qwest Center Omaha is one facility that comes to mind, they do events very well, consistently sell out concerts, and best of all no pro teams that try to dictate everything that happens in the building. It was publicy funded and is in the black on the balance sheets.


I think cities are more then willing to bow to these powerful team owners is because it is all about civic pride. Cities no longer go to war with each other like they did long ago and the only thing we have to replace it with is war on a court or field.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: 57AZ
Posted 2008-07-21 22:30:40 and read 2224 times.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 25):
On top of that, as an additional argument to UT-C - it is a public university, which means the school is funded through taxpayer dollars of the state, which means it makes perfect sense to use taxpayer money to help build that stadium.

Actually, much of the money that funded that stadium was private money. Without the donations from the stadium's namesake, it would not have been built. I might also point out that there is significant private influence over the decisions made by the University due to the agreements made when the University of Chattanooga was merged into the University of Tennessee system. Much of the monies of the University of Chattanooga were put into a trust that is under the Trustees of the University of Chattanooga, for example. Those monies are used by the Trustees to fund certain projects, chairs and scholarships and cannot be touched by the University of Tennessee. I suspect that there was some pressure on the University not to demolish historic Chamberlain Field, which is on campus.

As for building it off campus but close by, that was not realistic and the University knew it. If you look at the real estate around the campus of the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, the commercial properties are all multistory, high value properties. The private residences are mostly in a historic district and the only unbuilt on land is a historic cemetery. They would have been better served to have improved Chamberlain Field or have asked the donors to allot the money to other university projects, as the UTC Arena-The Roundhouse/McKenzie Arena-fills most of the need for exposition and performance space. Bearing that in mind, the money spent on the new stadium makes no sense.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: Slider
Posted 2008-07-22 13:07:12 and read 2159 times.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 12):
And the King of them all - the "National" bowling stadium in Reno Nevada.

It was built on the taxpayers' backs and used ONCE.

Oh, sorry, twice.

The movie "Kingpin" with Bill Murray and Woody Harrelson was partly filmed there.

Locals cannot bowl there. No revenue recovery is permitted.

I cannot abide hearing this.

The Dude would not be happy.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
You know what the really funny thing is about these "publically" funded stadiums is? Most of the money comes from exorbitant taxes on things like rental cars and hotel rooms that are generally paid by tourists and business people who are among the least likely to benefit from the stadiums. It is a modern version of taxation without representation.

Great point—it’s really cranked up the fees on those things and has eliminated the transparency of advertised prices. I mean, it’s terribly deceptive when you rent a car in PHX for $29.95 a day, but it ends up costing you (quite literally) almost $50+ when all the taxes and fees are folded in. But that’s the gravy train that local bureaucrats figured out in order to get the project done. But the true beneficiaries are very limited and usually this is only the owner and a few others.

Kudos to those that do privately finance their stadia. Bob Kraft, the owner of the Patriots, did this…I respect that a great deal.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 22):
What gripes me now is that the same people asking for the money could probably still pay the same amount multiple times.

That’s a good point. I’d love to see more sports owners have to capitalize their expenditures. The inflation in value of a pro sports franchise is ridiculous. That scumbag Daniel Snyder has his Redskins allegedly (along with I think the Cowboys) over the $1B valuation mark and yet he didn’t have to pay for what is the largest stadium in the NFL, and THEN, after publicly promising that he wouldn’t change the name of the stadium from Jack Kent Cooke, he signed the richest naming rights agreement ever with FedEx. And Washington has some of the highest ticket prices, parking costs, and game day costs in the league. For what? To line that jackass’s pockets? But people still go, like lemmings, and they pay. Until people take a stand and say no collectively, nothing will change. There’s still too much of a civic pride factor in a sports team, some cultural touchstone that is distinctly American.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 31):
Take a football stadium for an NFL team. How many days a year is the facility operated? 30/40 out of 365?

Another valid point—the utilization of arenas and stadia is so abysmal. The ROI is putrid given the massive costs to build. It’s like schools…the bureaucracy of the educational establishment is so entrenched yet schools’ marginal utilization is low and should be increased—civic events, community groups, any and every taxpayer that wants to use a school facility as a meeting place should be allowed to. But to listen to the news, we’re never spending enough on schools. Even with new schools going up, with modern architecture, no expense spared, it’s insane.


Sports owners need to be cut off.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-07-22 13:26:10 and read 2149 times.



Quoting Slider (Reply 40):

Kudos to those that do privately finance their stadia. Bob Kraft, the owner of the Patriots, did this…I respect that a great deal.

That any NFL owner demands public financing is insane given how each team is instantly profitable just based on the TV revenues.

Topic: RE: Stadiums Are A Waste Of Your Tax Dollars
Username: Slider
Posted 2008-07-22 15:24:10 and read 2128 times.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
That any NFL owner demands public financing is insane given how each team is instantly profitable just based on the TV revenues.

You’re right! AND, when you look at the revenue sharing system, smaller market or lower revenue franchises are on the same footing…it’s a wondrous thing really that helps ensure the competition be on the field and not be so unbalanced that legitimate competition can’t occur between the lines.

Granted, I have some strong opinions about the TV revenue stream and the DirecTV monopoly, but that’s for a different thread altogether. But given that franchises are profitable and don’t lose money, they can also exploit additional revenue streams. Green Bay was able to do this magnificently through the expansion of Lambeau Field, which has become (always was, but moreso now) a tourist destination and year-round place where people can eat, shop, even host weddings there. And little Green Bay ranks in the top third (I think from memory here) in gross revenues, so tiny GB helps subsidize large market teams that don’t get the revenue.

But the construction of stadiums then should be taken off the public dole. I know invoking GB here is an exception to that rule but they get a mulligan understandably here.


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