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Topic: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2008-07-21 01:50:36 and read 1809 times.

With the manmohan singh government facing the no confidence motion on Tuesday 22/07/08.
Fantastic debate on currently in parliament.

The India-US civil nuclear deal will depend on the outcome.

regds
MEL

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: Nimish
Posted 2008-07-22 09:45:34 and read 1751 times.

India wins - commies defeated!!!

From: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/U...TE_275-256/articleshow/3265695.cms

UPA WINS TRUST VOTE: 275-256

From: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/I...ts_victory/articleshow/3265927.cms

India Inc hails UPA govt's victory

Quote:
"With UPA passing the confidence vote FICCI is looking forward to a wave of reforms, some of which were held back in the past due to the ideological concerns of the Left," FICCI said immediately after the counting of votes was over in Lok Sabha this evening.

"We expect that in the next three months some major bills, including Pensions Bill and Banking Reforms Bill, pending in Parliament will also be pushed through," FICCI added.

The Indo-US nuclear deal would give a huge technological edge to the Indian industry in the area of nuclear power generation by opening up opportunities for Indian companies, the chamber said.

With the backing of its new allies, the UPA government would push through the disinvestment of PSUs to restore fiscal health, see through the passage of the Insurance and Pension Bills to generate the much-needed resources for infrastructure building, and give a fillip to the private sector engagement in defence activities, FICCI added.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: BarfBag
Posted 2008-07-22 09:48:07 and read 1750 times.

Excellent news that the vote passed! This is a great day for India, from an economic development perspective.

There are several positives from this. For one, the government has proposed several economic reform measures recently, that had been stalled by the Communists. Now that the Communists have left the alliance and the government still remains in power, we can see some significant late term reforms.

The nuclear deal too will get a fillip, with the IAEA likely to pass the safeguards arrangement so that the NSG can then give its own opinion, likely an approval, which will clear the way for foreign entry into the civilian nuclear sector.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: Nimish
Posted 2008-07-22 09:59:50 and read 1747 times.



Quoting BarfBag (Reply 2):
Excellent news that the vote passed! This is a great day for India, from an economic development perspective.

Amen - I'm so glad we have the commies out the way - and now they've voted the same way as their arch enemies - the BJP. I'm sure the congress will use that where possible.

I do hope that all the "shopping" that went on to get this vote - does not result in really corrupt chaps becoming ministers or derail the current liberalization process.

I hope the Commie species becomes extinct - at least in their current shape and inclination. And Mr. Karat should be ashamed and resign his seat and retire from politics.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: AirStairs
Posted 2008-07-22 10:04:51 and read 1739 times.



Quoting Nimish (Reply 1):
Banking Reforms Bill

About time!  yes 

I have not looked at what is specifically in this measure but it seems like things have only room to move upwards in Indian banking at this point.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: BarfBag
Posted 2008-07-22 10:10:17 and read 1736 times.



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 4):
I have not looked at what is specifically in this measure but it seems like things have only room to move upwards in Indian banking at this point.

It opens up the commercial banking and insurance sector to foreign sources. It had been held up by the Communists, whose unionist base comprises the employees of the large public sector organizations including state owned banks and insurances corps, not to mention their assorted BS about 'western capitalists out to gut India's economy'.

Thank goodness those dodos are now in the opposition and effectively neutered as well. For four years they did nothing but act as an opposition within the ruling alliance, standing in the way of every reform measure. It's a miracle the economy grew at more than 9% average over the past half a decade despite them.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: Comorin
Posted 2008-07-22 14:57:40 and read 1709 times.

So who exactly are these commies? Mostly ideologues from West Bengal and Kerala? I was very disappointed recently to hear an old leftie prof friend remark about the N- deal; he also thought that China was right on Tibet and possibly in its border claims against India. These duffers are still clinging to a Marxist past and need to wake up to the fact that Russia and China have moved on. Grrr...

The current govt has a year(?) until the next elections, and I hope it will fast track all the infrastructure related reforms held back so far. A huge amount of capital will be needed to build up the country, and capital market reforms are a priority.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2008-07-22 15:14:04 and read 1706 times.

SINGH is KING was the headlines.
Pity the PM did not get an opportunity to the conclusion speech thanks to the disgraceful act of Money display in parliament.

The PM should step on the Accelerator Now.
regds
MEL

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: BarfBag
Posted 2008-07-22 21:05:48 and read 1678 times.



Quoting Comorin (Reply 6):
So who exactly are these commies? Mostly ideologues from West Bengal and Kerala?

The unelected (they are not Lok Sabha MPs) Politburo heads from the Communist Party of India (Marxist) - a sorry bunch who don't as much as take a potty break without orders faxed in from Beijing having them do so. And in true communist tradition, Prakash Karat, the unelected head of the party who led their opposition to reforms the last few years, called the trust vote result a 'defeat for democracy'  Yeah sure The joker wouldn't know democracy if it landed on his head.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: JCS17
Posted 2008-07-22 22:46:14 and read 1668 times.

Just a general question for the Indians: As the world largest democracy, doesn't it kind of bother you that an ideology that has proved to be essentially worthless and pretty harmful to other peoples of the world has significant traction (as in the second largest force)? Admittedly, I don't know too much about Indian politics. Who actually votes for the communists? The very poor and uneducated?

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: BarfBag
Posted 2008-07-22 23:18:25 and read 1666 times.

The communists are not the second largest force. Not even close. They are a motley crew of multiple parties who are at each others throats locally (the main two split on ideological differences during the Sino-Soviet split), but cobbled together an alliance of convenience at the federal level. Since the ruling coalition depended on them to make up numbers, their backing out (as they ultimately did) would have resulted in the government facing a trust vote, precisely what just happened.

Yes, the poor vote for the communists, though their power is isolated to just two states (out of 27). Fast economic growth skews the Gini curve, resulting in temporarily greater inequality in income growth, which feeds these kinds of ideologies.

Their primary characteristic is a strong unionist background and general desire for an all-providing government, plus a reflexive anti-US mentality. Unlike the Chinese communists, who are also nationalist, the Indian ones don't have such a local identity. They're instead reviled, I daresay justifiably, as Chinese stooges.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2008-07-23 01:09:22 and read 1655 times.

http://www.pmindia.nic.in/lspeech.asp?id=695
The speech that could not be presented due to the chaos,but was eventually recorded.
strong words by the PM.
regds
MEL

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: Nimish
Posted 2008-07-23 03:49:11 and read 1647 times.



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 9):
As the world largest democracy, doesn't it kind of bother you that an ideology that has proved to be essentially worthless and pretty harmful to other peoples of the world has significant traction

That's the beauty of a true democracy - the only thing that counts is votes - anyone who gathers enough votes in given a chance. Clearly people vote for them because they like something about them. But given the stupidity displayed by these chaps in the past couple of years, it's only natural to expect that there will be less votes for them and hopefully they'll become an extinct species!

Historically, the commies are strong in the state of West Bengal as they initiated some much needed land reforms, and the poor and landless actually got to benefit from it (this is just a rough summary, clearly there's a lot more detail involved), hence they have a massive support in that state. Plus the fact that they act like the mafia there and don't give anyone else a chance to participate or grow!

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: Comorin
Posted 2008-07-23 04:53:26 and read 1641 times.



Quoting BarfBag (Reply 8):

Thanks for clarifying! You also make some good points in the subsequent post.

I wonder why Marxism has had such a strong hold in Kerala - a gentle folk with such a high literacy rate.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 12):
Clearly people vote for them because they like something about them



Quoting Nimish (Reply 12):
the commies are strong in the state of West Bengal as they initiated some much needed land reforms

Good point too! Do you think WB is missing out on growth because it's Communist?

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: BarfBag
Posted 2008-07-23 08:38:07 and read 1627 times.



Quoting Comorin (Reply 13):
I wonder why Marxism has had such a strong hold in Kerala - a gentle folk with such a high literacy rate.

Ah, my home state. We're an anomaly - we have literacy and life expectancy on par with the west but Indian incomes  Smile The commies are not as strong in Kerala as in WB; here we serially vote out the incumbent, so that power alternates between the Congress-led UDF and communist-led LDF.

Like in WB, the communists effected social and land reforms in Kerala in the 1950s (under Namboodiripad), which won them supporters. But they started showing signs of authoritarianism, and were stripped of power. Since then they've been Tweedledum to the UDF's Tweedledee. Interestingly, the BJP is gaining popularity in Kerala, and hopefully will cut into the LDF base.

The poor might vote for the communists as an alternative to their usual options. Those who work for the communists often do so because, for all their general incompetence at administration, the communist parties have very good internal organization.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: Trvyyz
Posted 2008-07-23 09:39:16 and read 1616 times.



Quoting BarfBag (Reply 14):
Interestingly, the BJP is gaining popularity in Kerala, and hopefully will cut into the LDF base.

Aren't the LDF supposed to be atheists?
They have more chance of cutting into the UDF base once they appeal to the lower castes.
I don't know if things have changed, but BJP in Kerala used to mainly comprise of Brahmins and Nairs.

I doubt if BJP can ever come to power since the minorities in Kerala make up for half the population.

Commies are not the best thing to happen to the literate Keralites, they go too far and hinder the development of the state based on some stupid ideology that everyone has abandoned.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: N867DA
Posted 2008-07-23 10:02:09 and read 1611 times.

India's communists disgust me to no end. I remember some time ago Kerala's CM said [paraphrased], "Indian corporations or foreign corporations--Kerala wants neither". I remember they made such a big fuss about a couple Big Bazars opening in some Kerala towns. Disgraceful politicos who try to suck up to all the wrong people...blech. All the Commie leaders ("Sri" VS Achuthanandan, etc) are pieces of crap. Ditto for 95% of Tamil Nadu politicians like the current joy of a CM.

From what I have seen, the BJP is gaining a modest foothold in the south. One state (I think Karnataka) just elected a BJP government.

As for the actual topic...I welcome the result of the vote even though I am sure several people sacrificed their morals for a wad of cash to make it so. It'll be nice if the N-deal goes through soon.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: BarfBag
Posted 2008-07-23 10:31:05 and read 1602 times.



Quoting Trvyyz (Reply 15):
Aren't the LDF supposed to be atheists?

The commies purportedly are, but in reality they're as 'normal' as you or me - several of them do the standard temple visits or church/mosque trips, as the case may be. The people just alternate between LDF and UDF because both are crap, not because of periodically disavowing religion.

Quoting Trvyyz (Reply 15):
I doubt if BJP can ever come to power since the minorities in Kerala make up for half the population.

I think that's a rather narrow view to divide people along such lines. It's clearly not just the devout Hindus who vote for the BJP. Their primary bloc historically has the trading/commercial communities. They have been gaining traction in Kerala and TN, and now rule Karnataka.

As for the trust vote, I'm very glad it succeeded. I'm not really a fan of the Congress, but I value the importance of political stability over any narrow political preferences. We need further economic reforms to handle inflation and other issues, and need a stable government for that.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: Comorin
Posted 2008-07-23 14:41:05 and read 1584 times.



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 11):
strong words by the PM.

My idea of strong words:

1. Send UAVs into PoK and blow up the terrorist camps.
2. Condemn the ISI in the General Assembly as state-sponsored terrorists and get the USA to neutralize them.
 devil 

Quoting N867DA (Reply 16):
Ditto for 95% of Tamil Nadu politicians like the current joy of a CM.

Agreed. But despite their loathsome reverse casteism, TN has been the most business-friendly state in the region.

So which state has the most enlightened politicians? I bet you could easily add 2% to GDP growth with better governance.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: TRVYYZ
Posted 2008-07-23 15:10:46 and read 1578 times.



Quoting BarfBag (Reply 17):
I think that's a rather narrow view to divide people along such lines

It is not my view, it is the view of parties like BJP, IUML etc.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: BarfBag
Posted 2008-07-23 19:15:23 and read 1557 times.

Trvyyz: I was referring specifically to something you quoted as your view:

Quoting Trvyyz (Reply 15):
I doubt if BJP can ever come to power since the minorities in Kerala make up for half the population.

Ultimately it's the people themselves who vote. Attitudes like 'I cannot vote for X because I am Y' do not help, certainly not with a mainstream party like the BJP, that receives votes from every community. It just sets people up as a captive emotion-driven votebank as opposed to defining them as individuals voting on issues that matter. For all my loathing of the CPI(M) I'd readily vote for them in local elections if I were a Calcutta resident, because I see Buddhadeb Bhattacharya as a much more pragmatic choice than a loose cannon like Mamta Bannerjee.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: TRVYYZ
Posted 2008-07-23 21:38:05 and read 1542 times.



Quoting BarfBag (Reply 20):
Trvyyz: I was referring specifically to something you quoted as your view:

Well, if you say that it is my view, well it was never my view until i discovered a party called BJP that played politics in line with your quote

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 17):
rather narrow view to divide people along such lines

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: BarfBag
Posted 2008-07-24 00:20:17 and read 1527 times.

Neither the BJP nor Congress (or for that matter the CPIM) is perfect from a communal perspective. Certainly not the Congress, as quite a few Sikhs and Hindus will tell you. It does not preclude me from voting for them (as I have) when I think it's the best option for a given election.

Statements on the lines that the BJP alone is 'communal' while the Congress is 'secular' is misplaced. They are two birds of the same feather. Both have been guilty of egregious divisive politics, and have perpetrated riots. Attempting to distinguish them on that basis is a meaningless exercise. To pick them on the basis of which one panders to your own religious/ethnic affiliation is to just reinforce the divisions.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2008-07-24 01:35:16 and read 1524 times.

so the deal if it goes through...it would be Sept-Oct 2008.
regds
MEL

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: Comorin
Posted 2008-07-24 06:03:06 and read 1519 times.



Quoting BarfBag (Reply 22):
To pick them on the basis of which one panders to your own religious/ethnic affiliation is to just reinforce the divisions.

I think what TRVYYZ  wave  is trying to say is that the BJP's stated mission implies 'Hindutva' and Congress implies a Gandhian view of 'Hindu Muslim Sikh Isai' (oops, that was Raj Kapoor). The BJP reminds me of RSS, 'Kabaddi', Jan Sangh and Babri Mosque while Congress of a secular India.

What you (BB) are saying is that both parties are opportunistic and and will play any card needed to get elected. Unlike Kerala, much of the electorate is illiterate, and you do what you have to to get their vote.

More later, off to work...

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: N867DA
Posted 2008-07-24 08:15:22 and read 1514 times.



Quoting Comorin (Reply 24):
secular India

is a farce.

I doubt theres a single party in India that is really secular.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: TRVYYZ
Posted 2008-07-24 16:02:40 and read 1499 times.



Quoting Comorin (Reply 24):

Thanks for your perspective. I agree, and I am not biased towards any political party.
Congress= too corrupt
Left= too left and followers tend to be violent (at least in Kerala)
BJP= too much of saffron colour( doesn't mind violence at all)

Basically people elect the lesser of these evils or elect based on how much contact and influence they have in these parties directly or indirectly.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: Comorin
Posted 2008-07-24 19:08:00 and read 1479 times.



Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 26):

It's been a very long time since I've lived in India, but I have been there a few times the last year for a few business meetings. Growing up in an India of high ideals, I was dismayed to see people showing up for meetings with a suit and a 'Tikka'. How 'Bhaiyya' is that!! It was not at all cool to discuss caste, religion or even region back in the days of National Integration - we were all Indian. I'm glad to see all the cross-cultural marriages happening these days (thanks to long nights at the call center  Wink ), and think India should be so proud of its diversity of religion and culture. Too bad there are neo-nazis and skinheads ( RSS, Shiv Sena, et al.) in India undermining a beautiful thing. Reservations and quotas also foment resentment and just don't work.

India needs inspirational and charismatic leadership that inspires people to think beyond themselves. Obsessing with growth rates alone does not create greatness. While the PM has done more for India than just about anyone else with his reforms in '91, he, nor any one else in politics, has the kind of leadership the country needs desperately today.

Just an opinion....

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: BarfBag
Posted 2008-07-24 20:48:22 and read 1470 times.

It appears the BJP is making overtures to the UPA that they are open to supporting economic reform measures, now that the Left parties are not in the way to violently oppose everything. I don't think the Congress has the maturity to pursue such a bipartisan act, but who knows, they might:
BJP-ready-to-support-economic-reforms/339989/" target="_blank">BJP ready to support economic reforms
The Opposition BJP on Thursday said it is willing to consider supporting the government in expediting economic reforms if the Prime Minister takes the initiative.

"If Prime Minister Manmohan Singh himself takes an initiative and contacts Opposition Leader L K Advani with specific proposals, the party will examine them," senior BJP leader and a former finance minister and Yashwant Sinha said.

Topic: RE: India Democracy - No Confidence Vote.
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2008-07-25 01:31:05 and read 1455 times.

bush calls Manmohan & agrees to speed up the process.

Now it looks like our western neighbour is trying to spoil the deal from outside.
Sad case.
regds
MEL

[Edited 2008-07-25 01:31:26]


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