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Topic: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: JCS17
Posted 2008-08-04 06:41:19 and read 2687 times.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5922356.html

Quote:
"Texas. It's like a whole other country."

Coined to promote tourism, that wry verbal wink at the state's mythic image has assumed a literal meaning as Texas finds itself in defiance of the United Nations, the Organization of American States and national leaders in its planned Tuesday execution of Mexican citizen Jose Medellin.

Unless the U.S. Supreme Court or Gov. Rick Perry acts in his favor, Medellin, 33, will die for the 1993 rape-strangulation of two teenage Houston girls, Jennifer Ertman and Elizabeth Peña.

Jennifer's father, Randy Ertman, dismissed international opposition to the execution.

"It's just a last-ditch effort to keep the scumbag breathing," Ertman said. "He never should have been breathing in the first place. I don't care, I really don't care what anyone thinks about this except Texas. I love Texas. Texas is in my blood."

I really hope this guy gets the needle, and soon. I tend to believe the officials that this man never informed them of his citizenship. Routinely, legal, or in this case illegal, Mexican murder suspects flee Texas and go south of the border. If they are ever caught by an inept and corrupt police force in Mexico, the Mexicans will not turn the suspect over unless a guarantee is made that the state will not sentence the person to death. I know some will say that this sets a dangerous precedent, and could make Americans who get in trouble in Mexico in a tougher situation. Bullshit, the Mexican government is saber-rattling, and they know that one highly-publicized case against an American where they were not given the right to speak to a consular official would decrease tourism drastically. In a way, it would be like what the Natalee Holloway case did to Aruba.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: AirTran737
Posted 2008-08-04 07:02:05 and read 2664 times.



Good for Texas. I hope this piece of shit suffers all along the road to hell.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2008-08-04 07:32:26 and read 2650 times.

As much as I loathe the death penalty, the UN, the OAS, Mexico-no one-has any right to interfere with the laws as prescribed in Texas. I don't think they'd think too higly of Texas trying to interfere in their business-I damn well know they don't like the U.S. putting pressure on them.

And, reading what these guys did to those two young girls, if there ever was a candidate for the death sentence in a state that has that sentence, it's this guy.

No one in this country should have any sympathy for him. And it has nothing to do with his nationality or status.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Texan
Posted 2008-08-04 08:55:32 and read 2619 times.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
As much as I loathe the death penalty, the UN, the OAS, Mexico-no one-has any right to interfere with the laws as prescribed in Texas. I don't think they'd think too higly of Texas trying to interfere in their business-I damn well know they don't like the U.S. putting pressure on them.

Yet we were the first ones to use the Vienna Convention in an effort to release US citizens arrested in Iran. We also used the language of the Vienna Convention against Guatemala to help free U.S. prisoners, and we require the Mexican government to notify the U.S. Consulate when one of our nationals is arrested in Mexico so that, if requested, a consular official may assist the national. I dunno...just seems kind of hypocritical for us to keep throwing the treaty in the faces of other nations while refusing to honor it ourselves.

Also, here is a common flawed perception of what the International Court of Justice ruling said. The ruling did not say that the United States should commute all the sentences of the 51 individuals named in the Avena decision. Although Mexico asked for all 51 nationals to be released on their own recognizance back to Mexico, all the ICJ ruling said was that the United States should examine these 51 cases to see if notifying a consular official would actually change the outcome of either the case or the penalty phase of the trial. This could have been done easily and for relatively little money. Had we done this, we would have complied with the ICJ decision and the criminals would all still, at the very least, be in jail for the rest of their lives in the United States. There would have been no extradition to foreign countries and the criminals would not be out on our streets.

In this case, I believe that Jose Ernesto Medellin was in fact prejudiced when Texas officials did not follow protocol set by the DOJ, FBI, IRS, and State Department concerning the arrest of foreign nationals. This prejudice would not have affected the guilt phase but could have affected the penalty phase. While I agree that if there was ever a candidate for the death penalty this guy fits the bill to a T, the arresting officers and the lower courts screwed the pooch on how to ensure that Medellin had access to all the legal assistance to which he was entitled. The court should have applied the standard stated in State v. Torres and commuted Medellin's sentence to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Texan

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Pope
Posted 2008-08-04 08:54:45 and read 2618 times.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
No one in this country should have any sympathy for him. And it has nothing to do with his nationality or status.

I for one have absolute no sympathy for the POS. However, I'm concerned with the notion that a treaty obligation of the US is being ignored by a state. As an American who frequently travels abroad I would hope that the treaty protections the US has negotiated are respected by other countries if I ever needed them.

While I understand what the SCOTUS was saying when it ruled the way it did, I think Texas is establishing a really crappy precedent that will one day bite someone in the ass. Finally, I don't understand why Congress just doesn't pass legislation giving the federal courts power over this matter and thereby fully resolve the issue.

At the end of the day, this is the right result accomplished by the wrong method.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2008-08-04 09:29:37 and read 2589 times.



Quoting Pope (Reply 4):
While I understand what the SCOTUS was saying when it ruled the way it did, I think Texas is establishing a really crappy precedent that will one day bite someone in the ass

 checkmark  Same reason I was never a fan of Guantanamo

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Acheron
Posted 2008-08-04 12:23:55 and read 2558 times.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
As much as I loathe the death penalty, the UN, the OAS, Mexico-no one-has any right to interfere with the laws as prescribed in Texas.

It goes both ways then. The US, UN, Europe, etc. don't have any right to interfere with any country's stablished laws.

Though Texan said it better than myself.

Quoting Texan (Reply 3):
Yet we were the first ones to use the Vienna Convention in an effort to release US citizens arrested in Iran. We also used the language of the Vienna Convention against Guatemala to help free U.S. prisoners, and we require the Mexican government to notify the U.S. Consulate when one of our nationals is arrested in Mexico so that, if requested, a consular official may assist the national. I dunno...just seems kind of hypocritical for us to keep throwing the treaty in the faces of other nations while refusing to honor it ourselves.

 checkmark 

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-08-04 12:45:58 and read 2540 times.

The United States is, in its purest of definitions, a Federal Republic, where its constituant states can enact their laws, while at the same time, respecting certain laws that are valid throughout the Union (aka Federal Law). If the United States says that its constituant states can decide on whether to apply the death penalty or not, so be it.

Anyone who rapes girls should be executed, they deserve no less. Just too bad they don't have the chair anymore. That being said, if there is a violation of international treaty, which would apply throughout the Union, with regards to this particular execution, then it has to be looked at, but this has to be an internal state and/or federal issue, without the interference from the outside, which means a stay of execution should be declared for as long as the issue about the validity of said treaty is unclear.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: RedFlyer
Posted 2008-08-04 13:03:19 and read 2527 times.



Quoting Pope (Reply 4):
However, I'm concerned with the notion that a treaty obligation of the US is being ignored by a state.

Let's get something straight here (and, respectfully, this is not intended as a jab to you personally, Pope): The treaty "violation" that everyone is up in arms about is a mere technicality; a ruse that is being used by those opposed to the death penalty. Does anyone really believe this scumbag didn't get a fair trial or that he is innocent? Does anyone REALLY believe that had he had access to his consular counsel at the time of his arrest that the outcome would have been any different?

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Texan
Posted 2008-08-04 13:51:35 and read 2503 times.



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 8):
Does anyone REALLY believe that had he had access to his consular counsel at the time of his arrest that the outcome would have been any different?

As I stated before, he would have been convicted or plead out, no doubt. The question is about the penalty phase. Mexico is strongly against the death penalty and has established a program called the Mexican Capital Legal Assistance Project (MCLAP) to assist their nationals who face crimes that could potentially be capital crimes. Through the stats provided to me by their director, they have around an 80% success rate in pleading out potential death penalty cases to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. That is the main goal of the organization and of the Mexican department of state (not sure of the official name of the department). Had Mexican consular officials become involved, they would have pushed both the State of Texas and Medellin to plead out to two counts of life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. This would have been acceptable to Mexico, whose citizen we are about to execute, and would have served the needs of justice for this country.

Read the State v. Torres decision I mentioned earlier...I'll try to find the correct cite for it. It is an case from Oklahoma in which the appellant, in terms of how the consular contact process played out, is very similar to Medellin.

Texan

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: RedFlyer
Posted 2008-08-04 14:31:34 and read 2483 times.



Quoting Texan (Reply 9):
they have around an 80% success rate in pleading out potential death penalty cases to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. That is the main goal of the organization and of the Mexican department of state (not sure of the official name of the department).



Quoting Texan (Reply 9):
Had Mexican consular officials become involved, they would have pushed both the State of Texas and Medellin to plead out to two counts of life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.

I have no reason to doubt the success rate of the organization you quote. However, I'm not sure that success rate would have translated into a life sentence for this guy. The crime was so heinous and the evidence so overwhelming there was no compelling reason on the part of the State of Texas to "plea bargain" this into a life sentence.

But I have a related question for you: Do you know when Mexico became aware of the plight of this criminal? Was it before his sentence or only afterwards? I don't know for certain, and I could be wrong, but I suspect it was during his trial given its high-profile nature. And if it was before or during his trial, or even prior to sentencing, I'd like to know why this organization didn't become involved at that point.

Quoting Texan (Reply 9):
This would have been acceptable to Mexico, whose citizen we are about to execute, and would have served the needs of justice for this country.

Respectfully, we're talking about the citizens of the State of Texas and their right to live under the law as they see fit, not what would have been acceptable to Mexico nor what would be acceptable to our own Department of State. I'm not sure having a foreign country trying to influence the outcome of a judicial process here serves any justice. The justice, as proscribed by the State of Texas, is to follow its rule of law and see to it that the will of the people is met. In this case, that means carrying out the sentence for which the people of the State of Texas have deemed appropriate for such a crime.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Texan
Posted 2008-08-04 15:41:52 and read 2450 times.



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 10):
Do you know when Mexico became aware of the plight of this criminal? Was it before his sentence or only afterwards? I don't know for certain, and I could be wrong, but I suspect it was during his trial given its high-profile nature. And if it was before or during his trial, or even prior to sentencing, I'd like to know why this organization didn't become involved at that point.

Medellin was arrested, charged, tried, and convicted in 1994. Mexico found out about Medellin's arrest in September 1997, six weeks after Medellin's first appeal to the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals denied Medellin's appeal. See Medellín v. Dretke, 125 S.Ct. at 2097, part of Justice O'Connor's dissent, which lays out that Medellin informed both arresting officers and people in the court that he was a Mexican national and the details of how Mexico came to find out Medellin was imprisoned (Medellin wrote a letter to the Mexican government in 1997 -- Texas never informed Mexico that one of its citizens was even on trial, much less imprisoned).

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 10):
Respectfully, we're talking about the citizens of the State of Texas and their right to live under the law as they see fit, not what would have been acceptable to Mexico nor what would be acceptable to our own Department of State. I'm not sure having a foreign country trying to influence the outcome of a judicial process here serves any justice.

However, we were signatories to both The Vienna Convention and Optional Protocol. These treaties bind us to the decisions of the International Court of Justice. There is well established precedent that the individual states cannot break treaty obligations entered into by the Federal Government. If we were to allow this, we would have absolutely no treaties since states would be able to break the treaties whenever they felt like it.

Moreover, President Bush issued a directive to then Attorney General Gonzalez telling him that the United States would abide by the ICJ's ruling! So, Texas thumbed its nose not only at an international treaty but also the will and directive of our President.

Furthermore, when the Supreme Court interprets a treaty, it must look first to the actual language; then to drafting history and original intent of the treaty; and then the understanding of the treaty by fellow signatory nations. The actual language of the treaty is a bit ambiguous as to whether the treaty is self-executing or not (one of Justice Roberts' main points in his argument from the cursory read I've had of the SC opinion). However, the original intent and understanding of the treaty by other nations is completely unambiguous: the treaty is self executing and creates individual rights.

Finally, the Department of State, the Department of Homeland Security, and the Department of Justice mandate that foreign nationals must be notified of their right to talk with a consular official from that individual's country within a specified amount of time (36 hours). The Department of State also says that the Vienna Convention obligations are binding on all federal, state, and local officials. So Texas once again thumbed its nose at the federal government on an issue of international treaty obligations.

Ok, so that wasn't really finally. We also demand strict compliance with the Vienna Convention from other nations (specifically, we have either brought to court or threatened to bring to court over noncompliance Iran, Syria, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and China at the very least. Which brings me back to the point in my original post that it is extremely hypocritical of the United States to demand other nations comply with a treaty that we are a part of but refuse to respect the treaty when it comes to their citizens within our borders.

Texan

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Pope
Posted 2008-08-04 16:59:25 and read 2421 times.



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 8):
Let's get something straight here (and, respectfully, this is not intended as a jab to you personally, Pope): The treaty "violation" that everyone is up in arms about is a mere technicality; a ruse that is being used by those opposed to the death penalty. Does anyone really believe this scumbag didn't get a fair trial or that he is innocent? Does anyone REALLY believe that had he had access to his consular counsel at the time of his arrest that the outcome would have been any different?

I agree that this guy isn't innocent. But treaties are about technicalities. Without technicalities the treaty wouldn't have any teeth. In any case, Congress could solve this problem if they wanted to. Let's see if Speaker Pelosi and Senator Reid do something.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: UAXDXer
Posted 2008-08-05 16:57:35 and read 2336 times.

The execution time of 1800CST has come and went with out Medellin's execution happening. Looks as though the Supreme Court has stepped in.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5924476.html

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-08-05 17:06:24 and read 2332 times.



Quoting Pope (Reply 4):
Finally, I don't understand why Congress just doesn't pass legislation giving the federal courts power over this matter and thereby fully resolve the issue.

That too would create a messy precedent, given the clear right of states to run the vast majority of the criminal justice system in this country.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: RedFlyer
Posted 2008-08-05 17:41:55 and read 2318 times.



Quoting Texan (Reply 11):
Medellin was arrested, charged, tried, and convicted in 1994. Mexico found out about Medellin's arrest in September 1997, six weeks after Medellin's first appeal to the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals denied Medellin's appeal.

Just curious, but what took so long for this criminal's flag of origin to get involved? I mean, he was in a "foreign" country from his perspective. His lawyers knew his country of citizenship. And I'm assuming so did the courts since on all the paperwork that is filled out and the endless questions asked on them at the time of arrest, the most basic is "Place of Birth" and "Citizenship". I mean, if I were in a "foreign" country and got arrested, the first thing I would do is try and contact the nearest embassy or consulate. I realize this criminal had been in the U.S. for years, but that is no excuse in my opinion. Ignorance of the law never stands in the way of the pursuit of justice.

Quoting Texan (Reply 11):
There is well established precedent that the individual states cannot break treaty obligations entered into by the Federal Government. If we were to allow this, we would have absolutely no treaties since states would be able to break the treaties whenever they felt like it.

So why hasn't the Federal Government stepped in?

Quoting Texan (Reply 11):
specifically, we have either brought to court or threatened to bring to court over noncompliance Iran, Syria, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and China at the very least. Which brings me back to the point in my original post that it is extremely hypocritical of the United States

With all due respect, please don't put us in the same judicial arena as those nations. Besides, it doesn't matter how perfect we are, or close to perfection we might strive to get, those nations and others like them will never accept the validity of anything we do.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Finally, I don't understand why Congress just doesn't pass legislation giving the federal courts power over this matter and thereby fully resolve the issue.

That too would create a messy precedent,

It would create the kind of mess that occurred when Congress stepped in to that right-to-die issue with that comatose woman in Florida back in 2005 (I forget her name).

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Texan
Posted 2008-08-05 17:51:23 and read 2313 times.



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 15):
So why hasn't the Federal Government stepped in?

They tried. They were amicus curiae in the case. The Supreme Court ruled against them.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 15):
With all due respect, please don't put us in the same judicial arena as those nations. Besides, it doesn't matter how perfect we are, or close to perfection we might strive to get, those nations and others like them will never accept the validity of anything we do.

So because we threatened those nations because they didn't notify the American Consulate within 24 hours (while we allow 36 hours) while we fail to notify nations that we arrest their citizens (see also cases involving Polish and German citizens...I'll look up the case names later) we aren't doing the same thing they are? Interesting...

Look, the fact remains that we were signatures to the treaty (as were they). We (and the other nations mentioned previously) broke the treaty. So how are we so different in this regard?

Texan

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: RedFlyer
Posted 2008-08-05 18:06:21 and read 2303 times.



Quoting Texan (Reply 16):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 15):
So why hasn't the Federal Government stepped in?

They tried. They were amicus curiae in the case. The Supreme Court ruled against them.

So if the Supremes ruled against the Feds, then Texas has every right to execute this guy, right? Isn't that what the Supreme Court's ruling means? I mean, what or who exactly is the final arbiter of the validity of this argument? Please don't tell me some foreign court is.

Quoting Texan (Reply 16):
So because we threatened those nations because they didn't notify the American Consulate within 24 hours (while we allow 36 hours) while we fail to notify nations that we arrest their citizens (see also cases involving Polish and German citizens...I'll look up the case names later) we aren't doing the same thing they are?

Are we talking about U.S. citizens that were picked up, charged, and convicted with overwhelming evidence for brutally raping and murdering young girls or are we talking U.S. citizens who were picked up for some other type of crime or purported offense? And since we're on this particular topic, let me ask you this: how sympathetic do you think our government or our own citizens would be if a U.S. citizen was arrested, charged, and convicted because of overwhelming evidence, in another country for brutally raping and murdering two young teenage girls? Protocol and treaties aside, I don't think there is much that we would do, certainly not with the vehemence that some of these foreign courts and governments are doing to save this scumbag's life.

Finally, no one, not even his own flag, is claiming his innocence. All of his supporters are simply pointing to a technicality - the treaty - in order to spare his life and give him life without parole. The argument is over his sentence, not his guilt.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-08-05 18:08:51 and read 2302 times.



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 15):

It would create the kind of mess that occurred when Congress stepped in to that right-to-die issue with that comatose woman in Florida back in 2005 (I forget her name).

Terry Schiavo, and don't misunderstand what I wrote. To pass some weird law extending federal jurisdiction over the Texas criminal law portion of this case would be ridiculous. On the other hand, treaties supersede any and all state laws in the constitutional hierarchy.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Mir
Posted 2008-08-05 22:01:43 and read 2269 times.



Quoting Pope (Reply 4):
I for one have absolute no sympathy for the POS. However, I'm concerned with the notion that a treaty obligation of the US is being ignored by a state. As an American who frequently travels abroad I would hope that the treaty protections the US has negotiated are respected by other countries if I ever needed them.

 checkmark 

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 8):
Does anyone really believe this scumbag didn't get a fair trial or that he is innocent? Does anyone REALLY believe that had he had access to his consular counsel at the time of his arrest that the outcome would have been any different?

No to both questions, but that's not the point. Now that Texas has decided it doesn't have to follow internationally established protocols, it sets the precedent that other governments (either national or state) can do the same should a US citizen be arrested for a crime in that country. That US citizen could well be guilty, but if they were innocent and denied the protections that the treaty provides, it would be a serious problem (and the US government would rightly be having a fit about it).

Treaties are all about reciprocity, and I agree with Pope that this may come back to bite the US. I will not miss this guy one bit, but proper protocol should have been followed. And when Texas didn't want to follow proper protocol, the federal government should have stepped in and forced them to. Like you said, it wouldn't have changed the outcome, but it would have made it legally legitimate.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: FlyingClrs727
Posted 2008-08-05 22:23:37 and read 2261 times.



Quoting Texan (Reply 3):
Yet we were the first ones to use the Vienna Convention in an effort to release US citizens arrested in Iran. We also used the language of the Vienna Convention against Guatemala to help free U.S. prisoners, and we require the Mexican government to notify the U.S. Consulate when one of our nationals is arrested in Mexico so that, if requested, a consular official may assist the national. I dunno...just seems kind of hypocritical for us to keep throwing the treaty in the faces of other nations while refusing to honor it ourselves.

No one ever denied these criminals the opportunity to contact their embassy or consolate or for the consolate to contact the criminals. Neither they nor their lawyers ever asked for the assistance of the Mexican consolate. This only became an issue years later after they were tried, convicted, and sentenced to death. Only years later during the automatic death penalty appeal, did they ever bring up this issue. Furthermore how is one supposed to know that a defendant is a Mexican citizen or other foreign national rather than an American citizen if the defendant does not volunteer the information? There are lots of people in Texas and other southwestern states who speak Spanish better than English. A large proportion of them are US citizens. There are even some localities that prohibit the police from calling the ICE to find out the immigration status of people who are arrested in order to prevent illegal aliens from being deported.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Stratosphere
Posted 2008-08-05 22:39:17 and read 2250 times.

It's all moot now he was executed at 9:57PM Tuesday night..I hope this POS burns in hell. He got off too easy..

[Edited 2008-08-05 22:40:31]

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: FlyingClrs727
Posted 2008-08-05 22:52:57 and read 2236 times.

Quoting Texan (Reply 9):
Mexico is strongly against the death penalty

Oh that's really been such a benefit to Mexico hasn't it? Every day there are more stories in the newspapers about Mexican policemen, judges, and politicians at every level of jurisdiction being murdered by the drug cartels. The death penalty exists in Mexico, but it's the criminals who use it. The federal, state, and local governements in Mexico are unable to fight the drug cartels, because they lack any penalty that has any meaning to the cartel members. They are much more afraid of other cartels than the police.

[Edited 2008-08-05 22:56:12]

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Stratosphere
Posted 2008-08-06 01:27:12 and read 2211 times.

Isn't it funny how the world is outraged at this scumbag being executed and yet the victims receive no attention. I for one have had enough of Mexico and the world dictating to US how to conduct business. Mexico has it's laws as does the rest of the world but somehow they all seem fit to interfere with our laws...You kill and torture and rape little girls in TX you DIE plain and simple.. F##K the rest of world.I wish all states handled things like TX and FL do. This punk got off too easy as it is.. All these scumbags think they did nothing more than a high school prank.. The ring leader Peter Cantu has a blog looking for friends in Europe..LOL..He knows he has no friends here. He will find some saps who will fight for him feeling sorry for him..I wish I could sign up to kill the bastard I would pay for the opportunity.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: RobertNL070
Posted 2008-08-06 04:25:38 and read 2194 times.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
As much as I loathe the death penalty, the UN, the OAS, Mexico-no one-has any right to interfere with the laws as prescribed in Texas.

I hope you might consider revising this statement after Texan's knowledgeable and well written arguments.

Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 23):
Isn't it funny how the world is outraged at this scumbag being executed and yet the victims receive no attention.

As much as I abhor the death sentence, it did strike me - well actually my mouth dropped open - that even on the Dutch news the perpetrator got all of the coverage with no attention for the victims and their families. A sorry very state of affairs.

Robert

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Agill
Posted 2008-08-06 07:11:20 and read 2157 times.



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 23):
Isn't it funny how the world is outraged at this scumbag being executed and yet the victims receive no attention

Indeed, after reading what he and his friends did I have trouble getting upset about him getting put down, even if i can agree with some of the critique against the death penalty in general.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: FXramper
Posted 2008-08-06 10:39:23 and read 2184 times.



Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
the 1993 rape-strangulation of two teenage Houston girls

One way ticket to the Eternal Lake of Fire!  flamed 

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2008-08-06 11:29:54 and read 2180 times.



Quoting Agill (Reply 25):
Indeed, after reading what he and his friends did I have trouble getting upset about him getting put down,



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 23):
Isn't it funny how the world is outraged at this scumbag being executed and yet the victims receive no attention.

I don't think anyone is upset about him being executed--they're just concerned that this sets a bad precedent, for when, say, a Texan is in Indonesia selling some marijuana and is sentenced to death. Texas will sing a different tune if something like that should happen--all of a sudden the treaty they scoffed at earlier will become real important.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: FlyingClrs727
Posted 2008-08-06 13:05:02 and read 2153 times.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 27):
I don't think anyone is upset about him being executed--they're just concerned that this sets a bad precedent, for when, say, a Texan is in Indonesia selling some marijuana and is sentenced to death. Texas will sing a different tune if something like that should happen--all of a sudden the treaty they scoffed at earlier will become real important.

For one thing, none of the criminals sentenced to death that the Mexican government is upset about were denied access to their country's consolate. They never even asked to see anyone from their consolate. This only became an issue after their cases were appealed.

The real injustice is how long it takes to execute vermin like Jose Medellin. The problem is that we no longer have the rule of law but the "rule of lawyers". Lawyers love to get judicial rulings that have the effect of ex post facto laws that would be unconstitutional if enacted by a state legislature or Congress. There was no federal legislation requiring the State of Texas to contact the Mexican consolate or inform the defendants of their right to contact the consolate. If Congress wants to pass legislation like that that would apply to future cases, they certainly have that power.

If the Mexican government actually gave a damn aobut their citizens, why don't they get rid of the corruption that stifles economic growth in Mexico. It is the lack of opportunity in Mexico that drives so many of its citizens to immiigrate illegally into the US. The Mexican government obviously doesn't give a damn about the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation decendants of their emigrants who fled the the stagnation and corruption of Mexico. One of the victims, Elizabeth Pena, was in fact a US citizen of Mexican ancestry.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Connies4ever
Posted 2008-08-06 17:30:25 and read 2120 times.

I accidentally posted this in the "Man too fat to execute" thread this AM -- I blame not enough coffee. So FWIW here it is:

~~~~~~~~~
A bigger issue is that once again the United States will be seen to have thumbed its' nose at an international treaty it signed quite some time ago, denying the now deceased access to whatever support the Mexican government might have been able to provide. This would almost certainly not have changed the guilty verdict, but might have changed the penalty. It is also possible Mr Medellin might have been sent back to Mexico to serve there, and therefore be off Texas' hands. That is all moot now.

The people who will ultimately pay the price for the Texas state government showing its' true cowboy colours are Americans abroad charged with crimes who increasingly will be denied access to American embassy/consulate assistance, and will end up serving lengthy prison sentences in Malaysia, or Thailand, or Indonesia, or some other attractive spot, or end up swinging from a rope. You could call it "The Medellin Effect".
~~~~~~~~~~

I know there will be arguments about states' sovereingty, states rights, and so forth. Personally, I think the US needs to have a really big debate about how it wants to go forward: as an agglomeration of more-or-less independent states with a common foreign and defense policy, or as a unified nation, with a single constitution, criminal/civil law, and all the rest. Notwithstanding the federal government willy-nilly adhering to (or not) international treaties it has signed, the current situation permits any state to frustrate an international covenant because of local politics.

I realise I am an 'outsider', but I have to say that from a practical adminstrative (and legal) p.o.v., this is intolerable. Delaware, for example, could easily place the federal government of being in contravention of a treaty or undertaking it has made on the world stage. I don't think any modern nation should tolerate or permit that situation to exist: someone hast to have the final say and that someone should be the feds, since they speak for America in the world.

I expect many flames.  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-08-06 17:50:13 and read 2113 times.



Quoting FlyingClrs727 (Reply 28):
Lawyers love to get judicial rulings that have the effect of ex post facto laws that would be unconstitutional if enacted by a state legislature or Congress.

What in the world are you talking about?

Quoting FlyingClrs727 (Reply 28):
There was no federal legislation requiring the State of Texas to contact the Mexican consolate or inform the defendants of their right to contact the consolate.

This is about a treaty, which supersedes all state laws.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Stratosphere
Posted 2008-08-06 21:41:25 and read 2073 times.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
This is about a treaty, which supersedes all state laws.

Well screw the treaty.. I know this will play out somewhere that some US citizen will have a small amount of pot and will be on death row and we will be at fault because we didn't give this scumbag all of his avenues of appeal.. Well this loser didn't have a little pot which will get you executed in the mid east he ganged raped tortured and murdered two little girls and he got off too damn easy in my opinion. He should have suffered like those poor little girls did.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-08-06 22:41:33 and read 2057 times.



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 31):

Well screw the treaty..

I suppose you will say "screw the Constitution" next?

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Stratosphere
Posted 2008-08-06 23:05:16 and read 2054 times.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 32):
I suppose you will say "screw the Constitution" next?

I might..I don't agree with everything

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2008-08-07 09:26:28 and read 2025 times.

Mexicans don't even care apparently, because of the crime problem, ironically

Crime-weary Mexico barely focuses on US execution

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...Zo_9jwVgdRLb3_DC2WoU7SOpQD92CV1B80

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-08-07 15:50:20 and read 1977 times.



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 33):

I might..I don't agree with everything

That is frightening

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Luv2fly
Posted 2008-08-07 16:15:35 and read 1957 times.



Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 24):
As much as I abhor the death sentence, it did strike me - well actually my mouth dropped open - that even on the Dutch news the perpetrator got all of the coverage with no attention for the victims and their families. A sorry very state of affairs.

Robert

Once again the victim or in this case the families get overlooked and pushed aside all for tv ratings.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: RobertNL070
Posted 2008-08-07 16:33:14 and read 1954 times.



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 36):
Once again the victim or in this case the families get overlooked and pushed aside all for tv ratings.

Well actually, it was on Dutch public radio, hence my jaw dropping. I've hardly watched tv these last few years.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2008-08-07 16:36:30 and read 1954 times.



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 29):
I expect many flames.

Well you should, because your post is riddled with misunderstanding about the United States.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 29):
I don't think any modern nation should tolerate or permit that situation to exist: someone hast to have the final say and that someone should be the feds, since they speak for America in the world.

Someone does have the final say. That institution is the United States Supreme Court and they denied Medellin's appeal. That essentially means the federal government considered Texas' actions to be permissible.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 29):
Delaware, for example, could easily place the federal government of being in contravention of a treaty or undertaking it has made on the world stage.

Nope, they couldn't.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 29):
Personally, I think the US needs to have a really big debate about how it wants to go forward:

We did, back in 1787. Abandoning the federal system is not even on the table today.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 29):
as an agglomeration of more-or-less independent states with a common foreign and defense policy, or as a unified nation, with a single constitution, criminal/civil law, and all the rest.

I'm sure outsiders like yourself who obsess about the internal affairs about the U.S. would love a consistent national framework so that your job of criticizing things would be easier, but stop and think about the consequences.

The federal system we have today allows states to have diverse policy inline with local preferences. Texans want different criminal law, education policy, welfare policy, etc than people in Vermont. The federal system allows them both to have their way. It produces government policy that is closer to what the people want in both instances.

Making all policy decisions you describe at the national level is less representative and less democratic. A bigger national government that is distant and removed from the common citizen is the last thing we need today.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2008-08-07 18:19:09 and read 1933 times.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
This is about a treaty, which supersedes all state laws.

No, they don't. Treaties are not binding domestic law unless either Congress passes laws proscribing their enforcement or the treaty is interpreted to be "self-executing." The U.S. Supreme Court decided 6-3 that this treaty is not self-executing, so Texas won the case.

In the end, Medellin was given due process and a fair trial. The basis of Medellin's entire appeal rested on a technicality which would not have affected the substance of the case built to convict him of rape and murder. Texas got this one right.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Connies4ever
Posted 2008-08-08 14:31:23 and read 1873 times.



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 38):
Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 29):
Delaware, for example, could easily place the federal government of being in contravention of a treaty or undertaking it has made on the world stage.

Nope, they couldn't.

Please explain.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 38):
Someone does have the final say. That institution is the United States Supreme Court and they denied Medellin's appeal. That essentially means the federal government considered Texas' actions to be permissible.

I understand that the SCOTUS has the last word on anything (as does ours here) but I cannot understand a system in which a treaty signed by the (at least notionally) national government can be ignored at the state level. In Canada we have a doctrine, enforced by our SC, of 'paramountcy'. Basically this means where jurisdictions overlap, say regarding environmental rules, federal laws trump provincial or territorial ones, as the federal law is paramount. Therefore, under paramountcy, any international obligation taken on by the feds in enforceable at the provincial/territorial level.

Since we have only a single criminal law for the whole country, the Medellin situation would never occur here due to our obligations under the Treaty of Vienna -- assuming there was capital punishment. This was de jure abolished in 1974, and de facto in 1963.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 38):
Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 29):
as an agglomeration of more-or-less independent states with a common foreign and defense policy, or as a unified nation, with a single constitution, criminal/civil law, and all the rest.

I'm sure outsiders like yourself who obsess about the internal affairs about the U.S. would love a consistent national framework so that your job of criticizing things would be easier, but stop and think about the consequences.

I do understand that politically going to a single unitary system is, for the foreseeable future, a non-starter. I have spent a considerable amount of time in the US, was engaged to a woman from Greensboro, NC, 1992-94.

I don't obsess about what goes on in the US, but when a country of ~33M lives next door to one of 300M+, you need to pay attention to what goes on. As former Prime Minister Trudeau put it, "It's like a mouse sleeping with an elephant. No matter how good natured the beast, every grunt or twitch it makes can cause the mouse serious alarm."

I agree that local issues should be decided locally. I do not agree that the criminal law is a local issue, I believe it's a national one. As I explained to several interested North Carolinians, a great advantage of our system is that if I commit a crime in Toronto and flee to Vancouver, there is no need for any extradition : warrants are enforceable across the whole country. They seemed to think this was a very good thing. Anything to cut down the number of lawyers involved.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 38):
Making all policy decisions you describe at the national level is less representative and less democratic.

Can't say I agree with that, but the great advantage of democracy itself is that everyone has the right to their own opinion.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2008-08-08 15:40:59 and read 1863 times.



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 40):
Please explain.

The federal government has sovereign immunity and cannot be sued unless it consents to being sued. The State of Delaware simply has no jurisdiction to tell the federal government what do in matters of foreign policy.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 40):
I understand that the SCOTUS has the last word on anything (as does ours here) but I cannot understand a system in which a treaty signed by the (at least notionally) national government can be ignored at the state level.

Because in the United States, a treaty is not automatically domestic law. It only becomes domestic law if Congress passes additional laws that make the treaty enforceable at the inferior levels of government *or* the treaty is specifically written to include "self-executing" provisions. Otherwise a treaty is just a formal understanding, not a binding contract.

That is exactly what happened in this case. Texas was not about to give a high-profile murder convict any wiggle room because of a technicality in a non-binding treaty. I think I could hear Rick Perry laughing all the way in Dallas.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 40):
I agree that local issues should be decided locally. I do not agree that the criminal law is a local issue, I believe it's a national one.

It's a lot easier to come to a national consensus with 33 million people which is less than the population of California. With ten times as many people in the U.S., there is a much greater diversity of opinion.

The success of the U.S. is in no small part due to the fact that the U.S. federal system gives states the flexibility to tailor their criminal, business, and family law to local preferences.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 40):
As I explained to several interested North Carolinians, a great advantage of our system is that if I commit a crime in Toronto and flee to Vancouver, there is no need for any extradition. there is no need for any extradition : warrants are enforceable across the whole country.

You're posting without knowing what you're talking about. From Article 4 of the U.S. Constitution:

"A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime."

I think your ignorance all stems from your perception of the U.S. as "an agglomeration of more-or-less independent states...." It's anything but.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Connies4ever
Posted 2008-08-09 06:15:36 and read 1822 times.



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 41):
Otherwise a treaty is just a formal understanding, not a binding contract.



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 41):
The federal government has sovereign immunity and cannot be sued unless it consents to being sued. The State of Delaware simply has no jurisdiction to tell the federal government what do in matters of foreign policy.

Not actually what I meant. At the fed level the gov't can undertake to comply, for example, with the Kyoto Accord (for argument's sake). Delaware might not choose to comply. And it seems that unless Congress passes a law making the treaty enforceable, there's nothing the feds can do about it.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 41):
Otherwise a treaty is just a formal understanding, not a binding contract.

Quite. A treaty then becomes basically a guideline, which makes it meaningless, AFAICS.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 41):
It's a lot easier to come to a national consensus with 33 million people which is less than the population of California.

Agreed, although we rarely get consensus. But we do get lots of meetings.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 41):
You're posting without knowing what you're talking about. From Article 4 of the U.S. Constitution:

"A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime."

This is what is written in the US Constitution for sure, but despite that, why is there a requirement to seek extradition state-to-state, which may not automatically be granted ?

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Baroque
Posted 2008-08-09 08:19:17 and read 1814 times.



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 40):
"It's like a mouse sleeping with an elephant. No matter how good natured the beast, every grunt or twitch it makes can cause the mouse serious alarm."

Might it be better for the mouse if it found itself sleeping with a donkey - figuratively that is?

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: RedFlyer
Posted 2008-08-09 09:27:40 and read 1809 times.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 43):
Might it be better for the mouse if it found itself sleeping with a donkey - figuratively that is?

You don't want that to happen, figuratively speaking, do you, Baroque? You will lose all your reasons for posting on this forum. You'll have to find another "Devil" to rail against. Life would be so miserable for you!  Wink

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Baroque
Posted 2008-08-09 09:43:42 and read 1804 times.



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 44):
You don't want that to happen, figuratively speaking, do you, Baroque? You will lose all your reasons for posting on this forum. You'll have to find another "Devil" to rail against. Life would be so miserable for you!

Maybe the Canadians will want to give it a try. Interesting creatures donkeys. Likely more intelligent than horses at least.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Connies4ever
Posted 2008-08-09 14:14:47 and read 1776 times.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 45):
Maybe the Canadians will want to give it a try. Interesting creatures donkeys. Likely more intelligent than horses at least.

 Big grin Indeed they are, Alan. Moreso than elephants I think, and likely easier to sleep with !
Good to see you're not losing any edge.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2008-08-09 20:48:06 and read 1760 times.



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 41):
You're posting without knowing what you're talking about. From Article 4 of the U.S. Constitution:

Agreed. Extradition in the US is a mere formality. If someone decides they don't wanna go, then someone calls up the governor's office and gets a governor's warrant-which means they whip one off the stack of preprinted warrants, fill in the names, stamp it with the governor's signature and away the motherfucker goes.

Of course, in some places like Iowa we have what is called a Missouri extradition. That's where a wanted felon is informally driven to the state line and let out of the car, where there is a Missouri sheriff about ten feet away with the homecoming committee. Nothing on paper at all, and I've seen it done many a time.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 41):
Because in the United States, a treaty is not automatically domestic law. It only becomes domestic law if Congress passes additional laws that make the treaty enforceable at the inferior levels of government *or* the treaty is specifically written to include "self-executing" provisions. Otherwise a treaty is just a formal understanding, not a binding contract.

That is exactly what happened in this case. Texas was not about to give a high-profile murder convict any wiggle room because of a technicality in a non-binding treaty. I think I could hear Rick Perry laughing all the way in Dallas.

Yep. You've read Medellin v. Texas all the way through as well.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 42):
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 41):
You're posting without knowing what you're talking about. From Article 4 of the U.S. Constitution:

"A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime."

This is what is written in the US Constitution for sure, but despite that, why is there a requirement to seek extradition state-to-state, which may not automatically be granted ?

There's no despite that, Connies.

Because the Constitution tells us how it is to be done, and that's exactly what we do, unless subsequently amended or as interpreted by the Nine Old Men as they used to be called or Eight Men of Varying Ages and One Old Biddy-who actually is a very nice person to meet on a personal level. If it's written in the Constitution THAT is the supreme law of the land here.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Baroque
Posted 2008-08-09 21:08:38 and read 1758 times.



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 44):
You don't want that to happen, figuratively speaking, do you, Baroque? You will lose all your reasons for posting on this forum. You'll have to find another "Devil" to rail against. Life would be so miserable for you!

Now we have allowed Connies4 to decide about the merits of donkeys, let me say that there are plenty of "Devils" in all countries to be railed at. A list of Aus devils is probably not of too much interest, but anyone wanting to listen to a good rant should get a transcrpipt of a recent speech by Paul Keating.

But I assume, perhaps incorrectly that you assume (he thinks that I think .....) that I only rail against Bush or the Reps or the US or some combination and that my guns would be seriously twisted out of line by the accession of the donkey. That would (until there was suitable action) leave a range of issues, the death penalty for a start - and extending that your whole justice system - the US health system (how did I manage to type that without my fingers falling off from laughing?) and the financial regulation system. And if that would not be enough, many of the things that Dougloid rails about from time to time.

Bush and the Reps get tanned at present because they are the ones responsible. If someone else is responsible, the art of tanning is still around, rest assured. You are sadly mistook, if you think I am a card carrying member of any party, although I have to admit there are organizations for contrarians.  Big grin

But you stay there fat dumb and happy and see where it gets you. Try this for a start:
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

I could go on to repost the chart of debt growth under various administrations, but you don't want to know that Carter's is one of the best of recent times and that W's is not that bad in % terms, just the amounts have become so large that percentages need to be recalibrated.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Connies4ever
Posted 2008-08-10 10:18:49 and read 1735 times.



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 47):
Agreed. Extradition in the US is a mere formality. If someone decides they don't wanna go, then someone calls up the governor's office and gets a governor's warrant-which means they whip one off the stack of preprinted warrants, fill in the names, stamp it with the governor's signature and away the motherfucker goes.

Not disagreeing the extradition is usually a formality, but the mere fact that it has to be applied for indicates that there is a requirement state-to-state. Similar to extradition from, say, Canada. I recall, although admittedly cannot cite, instances where extradition has been successfully fought -- although it must be rare.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 47):
Of course, in some places like Iowa we have what is called a Missouri extradition. That's where a wanted felon is informally driven to the state line and let out of the car, where there is a Missouri sheriff about ten feet away with the homecoming committee. Nothing on paper at all, and I've seen it done many a time.

Extra-judicial transport of prisoners, Dougloid ? Perish the thought !  Wow!
Sounds almost like extraordinary rendition.

I don't claim to know every article in the USC -- and as a non-American I think that's not surprising, just as most Americans are in the dark about the details of our own. However, in the Western world virtually all constitutions and legal systems derive from both Magna Carta ands Roman law (Iceland being a notable exception) and so on broad strokes are fairly similar. The wording may be somewhat different, but I think if you sit down and compare the Canadian and US constitutions you can draw some very good parallels.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 44):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 43):
Might it be better for the mouse if it found itself sleeping with a donkey - figuratively that is?

You don't want that to happen, figuratively speaking, do you, Baroque? You will lose all your reasons for posting on this forum. You'll have to find another "Devil" to rail against. Life would be so miserable for you! Wink

RedFlyer -- I'm with Baroque on that one. There's no argument that here in Canada there is a _lot_ in our history and in our system of government to criticise. Treatment of aboriginals, for example, taxes on Japanese and Chinese immigrants that was completely race-based, in the past. Internment of Canadian citizens of Japanese background in WW2 (Ukrainians in WW1, also) -- coupled with the fact that their seized property was not returned after the war. Shameful. In current terms I think we need to do more to pull our own weight in collective defense, either in NATO or with the US in NORAD. Many Canadians have deluded themselves that we are a 'nation of peacekeepers', simply because the concept was invented here. I think the war in Afghanistan is slowly disabusing them of that notion.

I think Baroque and I will agree that criticisms we make are to the US government, not American people. Ergo, it's not anti-Americanism.

As earlier indicated, I was once engaged to an American woman. Have spent a considerable amount of time there -- in fact last year golfed in Palm Springs for a stretch. I can honestly say I've never met an American who has been unpleasant to me, and my observations are that Americans I've encountered are hard-working, civic-minded (moreso than Canadians, I think) people. White, black, brown, yellow, whatever.

So I have a great deal of affection for Americans. It's the government (esp. the neo-cons, who unfortunately are here, too) that irks me, from time to time.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2008-08-10 13:04:47 and read 1720 times.



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 49):
Not disagreeing the extradition is usually a formality, but the mere fact that it has to be applied for indicates that there is a requirement state-to-state. Similar to extradition from, say, Canada. I recall, although admittedly cannot cite, instances where extradition has been successfully fought -- although it must be rare.

It's nonexistent.

In my county we actually had a full on extradition hearing one time, seems that a woman was arrested and it turned out she was on the lam from a vehicular homicide rap in Oklahoma. They sent some old boys to pick her up-cowboy hats, pearl handled revolvers and string ties and all.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: RedFlyer
Posted 2008-08-10 14:02:02 and read 1713 times.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 48):
But I assume, perhaps incorrectly that you assume (he thinks that I think .....) that I only rail against Bush or the Reps or the US or some combination and that my guns would be seriously twisted out of line by the accession of the donkey. That would (until there was suitable action) leave a range of issues, the death penalty for a start - and extending that your whole justice system - the US health system (how did I manage to type that without my fingers falling off from laughing?) and the financial regulation system. And if that would not be enough, many of the things that Dougloid rails about from time to time.

Your energetic enthusiasm would do far more good if you focused it on your own backyard. Spouting off in this forum against all the evils of The Great Satan, unfortunately for you, has no affect on anyone's opinion nor in any way alters the course of history (contrary to what your ego might otherwise tell you). I appreciate the shortcomings you see in many of our institutions, from the criminal justice system to healthcare, but we are a free and democratic society so when we're finally fed up with these institutions I'm sure we'll find something more suitable and to OUR liking, not some one else's in another part of the world. Of course, something tells me no matter what they may be, you'll continue your rants.

Best regards,

R

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Connies4ever
Posted 2008-08-11 18:25:48 and read 1654 times.



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 47):
Agreed. Extradition in the US is a mere formality. If someone decides they don't wanna go, then someone calls up the governor's office and gets a governor's warrant-which means they whip one off the stack of preprinted warrants, fill in the names, stamp it with the governor's signature and away the motherfucker goes.



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 50):
Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 49):
Not disagreeing the extradition is usually a formality, but the mere fact that it has to be applied for indicates that there is a requirement state-to-state. Similar to extradition from, say, Canada. I recall, although admittedly cannot cite, instances where extradition has been successfully fought -- although it must be rare.

It's nonexistent.

Came across this via Google (that most powerful research tool  Wink )...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Illinois Compiled Statutes

CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
(725 ILCS 225/) Uniform Criminal Extradition Act.

(725 ILCS 225/10) (from Ch. 60, par. 27)
Sec. 10. Rights of accused person: application for relief by habeas corpus: appeals. No person arrested upon such warrant shall be delivered over to the agent whom the Executive Authority demanding him shall have appointed to receive him unless he shall first be taken forthwith before a judge of the circuit court of the county wherein he is arrested who shall inform him of the demand made for his surrender and of the crime with which he is charged, and that he has the right to demand and procure within a reasonable time and opportunity, not less than 24 hours, legal counsel; and if the prisoner or his counsel shall state that he or they desire to test the legality of his arrest, the judge of such court shall fix a reasonable time to be allowed him within which to apply for relief by habeas corpus. When such relief is applied for, notice thereof, and of the time and place of hearing thereon, shall be given to the prosecuting officer of the county in which the arrest is made and in which the accused is in custody, and to the agent of the demanding state.
Either party may take an appeal from the judgment or order of the circuit court, as in other civil cases.
(Source: P.A. 81‑243.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, my legal 'training' extends only to business law, but if I am reading this correctly, the fugitive appears to have the right to counsel, the right to contest the warrant, and the option of seeking an appeal should (almost always, one supposes) the decision goes against him/her.

So, at least to me, it seems as though state-to-state extradition is not necessarily a matter of the governor signing a warrant. Of course, I may well be wrong about this.

From what I read on-line the above statute from Illinois is pretty much the norm throughout the USA as part of a uniform extradition process.

But that'll be my last post on this topic, it's more or less had it's run I think.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Baroque
Posted 2008-08-11 22:48:34 and read 1642 times.



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 51):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 48):
But I assume, perhaps incorrectly that you assume (he thinks that I think .....) that I only rail against Bush or the Reps or the US or some combination and that my guns would be seriously twisted out of line by the accession of the donkey. That would (until there was suitable action) leave a range of issues, the death penalty for a start - and extending that your whole justice system - the US health system (how did I manage to type that without my fingers falling off from laughing?) and the financial regulation system. And if that would not be enough, many of the things that Dougloid rails about from time to time.

Your energetic enthusiasm would do far more good if you focused it on your own backyard. Spouting off in this forum against all the evils of The Great Satan, unfortunately for you, has no affect on anyone's opinion nor in any way alters the course of history (contrary to what your ego might otherwise tell you). I appreciate the shortcomings you see in many of our institutions, from the criminal justice system to healthcare, but we are a free and democratic society so when we're finally fed up with these institutions I'm sure we'll find something more suitable and to OUR liking, not some one else's in another part of the world. Of course, something tells me no matter what they may be, you'll continue your rants.

Best regards,

R

WADR I think you are suffering from a touch of the Britneys* Redflyer. You demand to be taken notice of and then when the comments are not 100% favourable, the messenger is suffering from an excess of ego, is ranting and therefore is to be shot.

Thanks for letting me know I should not post in a.net except on topics relating to Australia. I don't think on the rare threads that do tackle an Australian topic any Americans have been told to make love elsewhere.

Meanwhile, I assume you will be writing to George W Bush to ask him to reconsider the position of his ambassador to Australia because he certainly seems to have give the previous one a licence to comment on domestic Australian politics.

So if that is the new spirit of globalization, you will just have to put up with being told how to improve your systems. Oddly enough, you seem to have less trouble with similar comments from Americans. Now why is this? Not xenophobic are we Pauline?

*But not the P Hiltons, she seems on the evidence to have a more balanced view of life, amazing as that may seem.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: HuskyAviation
Posted 2008-08-12 06:58:52 and read 1627 times.



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 51):

It doesn't do you much good to let a bitter old fart get under your skin.

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2008-08-12 07:15:10 and read 1624 times.



Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 54):


Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 51):


It doesn't do you much good to let a bitter old fart get under your skin.

On behalf of all the bitter old farts of the world I must lodge my protest, not that I think it'll do any good god damn yez whippersnappers


 old   old   old 

Quoting Baroque (Reply 53):
WADR I think you are suffering from a touch of the Britneys* Redflyer. You demand to be taken notice of and then when the comments are not 100% favourable, the messenger is suffering from an excess of ego, is ranting and therefore is to be shot.

You're killin me, B.


 laughing   laughing   laughing 

Topic: RE: Jose Medellin Set To Die In Texas
Username: RedFlyer
Posted 2008-08-12 10:18:21 and read 1606 times.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 53):
You demand to be taken notice of and then when the comments are not 100% favourable, the messenger is suffering from an excess of ego, is ranting and therefore is to be shot.

That is your perception, my friend.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 53):
Thanks for letting me know I should not post in a.net except on topics relating to Australia.

Again, your perception. I never said that. All I was saying is that you should focus some of that excess exuberance you have on your own backyard instead of constantly looking for an opening to criticize us. Your posts are quite numerous and a disproportionate amount of them have an anti-American slant to them. While I can certainly understand your posting in this non-av forum, you use the Av forums as well to spew your anti-American venom. That's okay; do it all you want. But I derive pleasure from calling you out on it.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 53):
So if that is the new spirit of globalization,

That comment is precisely reflective of your mindset.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 54):
It doesn't do you much good to let a bitter old fart get under your skin.

Oh, he doesn't get under my skin. But I sure enjoy getting under his.  Wink


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