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Topic: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2008-08-29 03:55:53 and read 3160 times.

Calling on Dutch A.netters. Need to know if this translation is correct.

******
Dutch biggest newspaper Telegraaf writes today that the decision has been made by the US to attack Iran in the next few weeks. Unmanned aircraft are to be used in this attack. Potential targets are said to not only nuclear facilities but also military installations. The latter have been mapped with the help of the dutch secret service AIVD

Good sources have declared to the Telegraaf that the AIVD has been operating in Iran for the last few years with the purpose of the infiltration and sabotage of the weapons industry of the Iranian republic.
The operations is said to be "very successful" and is recently put to halt because of american plans for airattack. Information out of the AIVD operation have been shared with the CIA in the recent years according to the sources.

Iran propably works to get an atomic bomb and refuses to comply to western demands to stop enriching uranium. In june Israeli vice president Shaul Mofaz made the statement that an Israeli attack is inevitable if Iran continues its quest for atomic weapons.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/1...nval_op_Iran_verwacht__.html?p=2,1

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Alberchico
Posted 2008-08-29 04:28:59 and read 3134 times.

Bomb Iran ???

Why ??? So that they will later pour billions of dollars into terrorist groups who will launch attacks against American interests all over the world. Look at what the Libyans did to Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie. And it took years to find out the real culprits. Not to mention an all out attack and invasion of Iran is completely OUT OF THE QUESTION RIGHT NOW...


Just my  twocents 

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: BlackProjects
Posted 2008-08-29 04:41:31 and read 3121 times.

Unmanned Aircraft = Cruise Missiles its a lot Cheaper and will Save US Pilots being Paraded in-front of the Iranian TV Cameras.

At the Moment 3 US Carrier battle groups are in or near the Gulf so if the US did Knock out Iran's nuclear plants and start dismantling Iran's military machine and Iran did try and Close the Gulf to all shipping it would get very busy in the Straights of Hormuz.



 old 

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2008-08-29 04:44:55 and read 3115 times.

Added to thiis:

Russia to respond militarily to U.S. missile shield
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080827/116303880.html

MOSCOW, August 27 (RIA Novosti) - Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has said Russia will have to respond militarily to the deployment of elements of a U.S. missile shield in Central Europe.

The deal to place 10 interceptor missiles in Poland was reached in mid-August, and followed the signing of an agreement on July 8 by the U.S. and Czech foreign ministries to place a U.S. radar in the Czech Republic.

"These missiles are close to our borders and constitute a threat to us," Medvedev said in an interview with Al-Jazeera television on Tuesday. "This will create additional tension and we will have to respond to it in some way, naturally using military means."

 bomb 

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2008-08-29 04:54:07 and read 3104 times.



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 3):
"These missiles are close to our borders and constitute a threat to us,"

I am still curious how anyone buys the premise that 10 interceptors - i.e. 30-year old Standard SM-2 Anti-Aircraft missiles with improved software that allows it to hit high-speed targets like incoming missile warheads, constitutes a threat to the Russian homeland.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: JRadier
Posted 2008-08-29 08:25:08 and read 3002 times.

Guys, no stress, it's just 'De Telegraaf'. It's a newspaper version of every gossip magazine you can think of  Wink. It's easy to read, but for real news we go elsewhere.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2008-08-29 08:29:43 and read 2996 times.



Quoting JRadier (Reply 5):
Guys, no stress, it's just 'De Telegraaf'. It's a newspaper version of every gossip magazine you can think of Wink. It's easy to read, but for real news we go elsewhere.

I had a mixed-up feeling about this newspaper. It looked rather like the tabloid kind.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Baroque
Posted 2008-08-29 08:32:18 and read 2989 times.



Quoting JRadier (Reply 5):
Guys, no stress, it's just 'De Telegraaf'. It's a newspaper version of every gossip magazine you can think of Wink. It's easy to read, but for real news we go elsewhere.

Hope you are correct. If the Georgia conspiracy story was half correct it would be a logical follow up. With a distinct possibility that Russia would be drawn in - again!

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Whappeh
Posted 2008-08-29 09:16:02 and read 2958 times.

It won't happen. Bet on it.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Moo
Posted 2008-08-29 09:27:34 and read 2942 times.



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
I am still curious how anyone buys the premise that 10 interceptors - i.e. 30-year old Standard SM-2 Anti-Aircraft missiles with improved software that allows it to hit high-speed targets like incoming missile warheads, constitutes a threat to the Russian homeland.

How can Russia be assured that that is *all* that's being installed there? Would the US take issue with Russian 'defensive' missiles being placed in Cuba?

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2008-08-29 09:46:42 and read 2930 times.



Quoting Moo (Reply 9):
How can Russia be assured that that is *all* that's being installed there?

Nobody, including the Russians, has claimed that anything more substantial than the suped-up Surface-to-Air missiles. Which are defensive by their very nature. These are not ICBMs.

Quoting Moo (Reply 9):
Would the US take issue with Russian 'defensive' missiles being placed in Cuba?

Cuba has russian SAMs. SA-6/-7/-8/-9/-13/-14/-16s, to be exact, plus whatever they have on their naval assets. Big deal. We're not planning an invasion of cuba.

The question remains: Why is Russia getting their panties in a twist over defensive systems, if they have no offensive plans themselves?

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Mir
Posted 2008-08-29 09:50:19 and read 2925 times.



Quoting Moo (Reply 9):
Would the US take issue with Russian 'defensive' missiles being placed in Cuba?

If Russia were to set up a missile defense system in Cuba, you bet we would do something about it.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
Cuba has russian SAMs.

There is a difference between SAMs and a missile defense system, even if that missile defense system is made up of modified SAMs.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2008-08-29 09:55:09 and read 2920 times.



Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
There is a difference between SAMs and a missile defense system, even if that missile defense system is made up of modified SAMs.

What is the difference, exactly?

Keep in mind that these ABMs are good for one thing only - the interception of ICBMs and IRBMs. They are useless against cruise missiles, fighter aircraft, and other conventional targets. And the only way they can hurt anyone on the ground is by falling on your head after running out of fuel.

As long as the US has no plans to launch ICBMs or IRBMs at Cuba, why should we care?

And conversely (again) if Russia has no plans against Poland, why should they care?

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Johns624
Posted 2008-08-29 10:28:32 and read 2905 times.



Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
Main Dutch Newspaper



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 6):
I had a mixed-up feeling about this newspaper. It looked rather like the tabloid kind.

Which is it?

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: JRadier
Posted 2008-08-29 10:31:24 and read 2902 times.



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 13):
Which is it?

Both, I believe it's the newspaper with the highest circulation but it is kind of tabloit-ish.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: David L
Posted 2008-08-29 12:24:12 and read 2851 times.



Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

 sarcastic  Not this again. Instead of continually posting excerpts from dodgy sources, how about making a bet?

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: BlackProjects
Posted 2008-08-29 12:31:56 and read 2845 times.

Russia.

Hmm Lets Se the New guy in Charge was hand picked by Prime Minister / then President Putin for the Job of President and now that Putin is Prime Minister who is really in Charge of Russia.

Medvedev.

I dont think so it"s more like Putin is in Charge doing the old Puppet mater game with him pulling the Strings and telling Medvedev what to say and how to say it.

12 Surface to Air Missiles pose Zero Danger to Russia but the Russians are annoyed that NATO is surrounding her with former Warsaw Pact nations who are now NATO or soon to be NATO Members and Russia do-sent like it So will kick off at the slightest little thing.

The Defence Shield isnt against Russia but against Rogue nations who mite some day get hold of a Long Range ICBM or a Medium IMRBM which can hit NATO countries with a WMD but the Russians would rather it isnt based in Poland why is simple as they see Poland as part of its sphere of influence and now find they are no-longer welcome in Poland or any where else.

Russia is now trying to re-arm and turn her self back into a super power which will take a lot of time and a huge amount of money.

The Quickest way to be a super power is to scare the Shite out of your neighbours by making lots of noise and waving a big Sword at the nearest people to you, It makes the Russian prime minister and president look big in the eyes of the Russian people which is the most important thing to the Russian leader ship.

As for Iran the leadership of Iran is really out there they think they can scare the rest of the world into sub-mission but scaring the Military of a super power into running or sailing away is not an option when that nation gets a huge amount of its oil from the Persian gulf.

Iran is willing and even able to try and force its neighbours into joining Iran weather they want to or not, If Iran gets the bomb it would get very messy for all of us in the west so the sooner the threat is removed the better for all of us.

The real people of Iran are fed up with all the restrictions and threats against the west by the Leadership but with the current way things are governed in Iran they can do nothing to stop the Leadership from forcing them into a war that they can not hope to win.




 old 

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Cainanuk
Posted 2008-08-29 15:55:45 and read 2791 times.

I am still curious how anyone buys the premise that 10 interceptors - i.e. 30-year old Standard SM-2 Anti-Aircraft missiles with improved software that allows it to hit high-speed targets like incoming missile warheads, constitutes a threat to the Russian homeland......


Put the shoe on the other foot and say Russia put a missile shield for "defensive purposes" in Cuba and see how you would feel... Oh that's right, I newarly forgot, we had something like that once what was it called again? Oh yeah, the CUBAN MISSILE CRISES... aka 15 minutes to armageddon.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Sv7887
Posted 2008-08-29 16:10:47 and read 2782 times.



Quoting Cainanuk (Reply 17):
I am still curious how anyone buys the premise that 10 interceptors - i.e. 30-year old Standard SM-2 Anti-Aircraft missiles with improved software that allows it to hit high-speed targets like incoming missile warheads, constitutes a threat to the Russian homeland......


Put the shoe on the other foot and say Russia put a missile shield for "defensive purposes" in Cuba and see how you would feel... Oh that's right, I newarly forgot, we had something like that once what was it called again? Oh yeah, the CUBAN MISSILE CRISES... aka 15 minutes to armageddon.

You're missing one very important thing...The Cuban Missiles had Nuke Warheads..These are interceptors pure and simple. 10 interceptors do NOTHING to stop Moscow's Nuclear ICBMs, bombers, and Missile Submarines. It's pure posturing..

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2008-08-29 19:58:22 and read 2737 times.



Quoting Cainanuk (Reply 17):
Put the shoe on the other foot and say Russia put a missile shield for "defensive purposes" in Cuba and see how you would feel... Oh that's right, I newarly forgot, we had something like that once what was it called again? Oh yeah, the CUBAN MISSILE CRISES... aka 15 minutes to armageddon.

If Russia put similar missiles in Cuba, I don't think the U.S. would have any problem with it. They would not be a threat to anyone.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: N1120A
Posted 2008-08-29 20:02:37 and read 2733 times.



Quoting BlackProjects (Reply 16):

The real people of Iran are fed up with all the restrictions and threats against the west by the Leadership but with the current way things are governed in Iran they can do nothing to stop the Leadership from forcing them into a war that they can not hope to win.

The Iranian people have proven in the past that they can rise up and overthrow a dictatorship. The reason they don't now is because they don't want to be caught in a state of flux when an invasion happens. That happened in 1980 and hundreds of thousands of Iranians died.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: HowSwedeitis
Posted 2008-08-29 20:12:10 and read 2728 times.

*Sigh* I really hope none of this is true... Iraq was fractured, and barely resourseful when the US invaded. Iran? Shit, they have a massive military. The US would need much more than the old "Coalition of the Willing!" They'd need major assistance. The only thing I can maybe think of would be to pull an Israeli-style air raid. They did the same thing to Syria not too long ago. Now the question is, what would Iran do after such a strike? Would they invade a neigbor (say, Iraq?) Would they do as the Syrians, and do nothing? Or, (most dreadfully) would they launch a series of missles and possible war heads at Israel or any other Western-friendly nation in the area? All of this must be considered carefully when talking about military action against Iran.

-HSII

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: David L
Posted 2008-08-30 01:57:50 and read 2677 times.



Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 21):
Now the question is, what would Iran do after such a strike? Would they invade a neigbor (say, Iraq?) Would they do as the Syrians, and do nothing? Or, (most dreadfully) would they launch a series of missles and possible war heads at Israel or any other Western-friendly nation in the area?

Or simply ensure that terrorist activities are stepped up. I doubt the US would risk that. In the eyes of many Americans, Sept. 11th was unprovoked. Resumption of terror activity against US citizens as a direct consequence of an attack on Iran would cripple the government's rating at home.

Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 21):
All of this must be considered carefully when talking about military action against Iran.

 checkmark  Some people are confusing a half-hearted wish, born of frustration, with a serious intention to spark a major conflagration.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Moo
Posted 2008-08-30 02:47:48 and read 2657 times.



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 18):

You're missing one very important thing...The Cuban Missiles had Nuke Warheads..These are interceptors pure and simple. 10 interceptors do NOTHING to stop Moscow's Nuclear ICBMs, bombers, and Missile Submarines. It's pure posturing..

And neither the US nor Russia has the capability to produce nuclear tipped cruise missiles...  Yeah sure

Thats the thing here, Russia has no way of being 100% certain just *what* is being installed - its not like they can pop over whenever they want and wander around the facility to make sure, now is it?

Or are you suggesting they should take another countries word at face value?

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: L410Turbolet
Posted 2008-08-30 03:09:14 and read 2651 times.



Quoting Moo (Reply 23):
its not like they can pop over whenever they want and wander around the facility to make sure, now is it?

Regular inspections to bothe the missile site as well as the radar facility are of course part of the arrangement with Russians. The interceptors pose absolutely no threat to their nuclear offensive/retaliatory capability and even the most trigger-happy Russian top brass who have been hurling threats of nuclear armaggeddon the past two years or so know that, this is all for domestic consumption to create favorable conditions for Putin to return to the old Evil Empire ways of doing things.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Moo
Posted 2008-08-30 03:27:04 and read 2639 times.



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 24):
Regular inspections to bothe the missile site as well as the radar facility are of course part of the arrangement with Russians.

And just how invasive are those inspections allowed to be? Unconditional? No areas off limits? Nowhere anything can be hidden?

Highly unlikely.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 24):
The interceptors pose absolutely no threat to their nuclear offensive/retaliatory capability and even the most trigger-happy Russian top brass who have been hurling threats of nuclear armaggeddon the past two years or so know that,

Yeah, I guess the Russian 'top brass' are just trolling then...  Yeah sure

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 24):
this is all for domestic consumption to create favorable conditions for Putin to return to the old Evil Empire ways of doing things.

So, yeah, just trolling then eh?  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2008-08-30 06:05:10 and read 2697 times.



Quoting Moo (Reply 25):
And just how invasive are those inspections allowed to be? Unconditional? No areas off limits? Nowhere anything can be hidden?

Highly unlikely.

Moo, GW Bush offered to give the Russians, free of charge, the technology and designs needed for Russia to build their own Missile Defence System. The offer was specifically to convince the Russians that we want them to be safe too against an attack by a rogue.

This is all posturing by Russia.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Baroque
Posted 2008-08-30 06:21:06 and read 2692 times.



Quoting Moo (Reply 25):
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 24):
Regular inspections to bothe the missile site as well as the radar facility are of course part of the arrangement with Russians.

And just how invasive are those inspections allowed to be? Unconditional? No areas off limits? Nowhere anything can be hidden?

Highly unlikely.

I can just imagine the US reaction if the UN inspection terms for Iraq were applied. They might even learn how to say nyet.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
Moo, GW Bush offered to give the Russians, free of charge, the technology and designs needed for Russia to build their own Missile Defence System.

Washington has tried to ease Russia's fears about the planned missile shield by offering to share the system's threat warnings and otherwise cooperate.

Ivanov held firm to Russia's criticism of the shield, however, saying: "We cannot understand what Eastern Europe needs this system for."

"What's more, a cheaper counter-measure can be found for any such system," he said.

AND
US makes four-point offer to Russia on missile cooperation
Brussels (AFP) April 19 - The United States has made a four-plank offer to Russia to help ease its fears about US plans for a missile shield in Europe, a NATO official said Thursday. The US offered to share early warning data about missile threats, proposed inter-operability between US and Russian missile systems, committed to holding joint exercises and suggested ideas for a new partnership, the official said. The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, did not elaborate. The offer was made by a US delegation on Tuesday, ahead of talks at NATO headquarters in Brussels between senior NATO and Russian officials on Thursday. Washington announced in January plans to extend its anti-missile shield into Europe, but the move to install interceptors in Poland and a radar system in the Czech Republic have angered Russia.

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Russ...S_Offer_On_Missile_Shield_999.html
Not exactly what you stated. Care to provide a source for your version?

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2008-08-30 06:27:49 and read 2684 times.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 27):
Not exactly what you stated. Care to provide a source for your version?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/21/wo...pe/21missile.html?pagewanted=print

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Baroque
Posted 2008-08-30 06:36:53 and read 2681 times.



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 27):
Not exactly what you stated. Care to provide a source for your version?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/21/wo...pe/21missile.html?pagewanted=print

The package includes American offers to cooperate on developing defense technology and to share intelligence about common threats, as well as to permit Russian officials to inspect the future missile bases.
is hardly the same as "Moo, GW Bush offered to give the Russians, free of charge, the technology and designs needed for Russia to build their own Missile Defence System. The offer was specifically to convince the Russians that we want them to be safe too against an attack by a rogue."

What did you say about posturing?

The real puzzle is why the US lets itself be used:
The concept of sharing antimissile technology with the Russians is hardly new. In fact, even when President Ronald Reagan proposed his grand plan for a leakproof missile shield under the so-called Star Wars program, he pledged that the new technology could be shared with the Kremlin in order to assure Russia that it had nothing to fear from American defenses.

The missile defense proposals for central Europe also have become a proxy issue for Russian officials who still rankle at American and NATO expansion east after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Yet even among some officials in Poland and the Czech Republic, support for the two missile defense bases has more to do with binding the United States closer to their capitals against a future Russian threat than about deterring a future Iranian missile threat.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Moo
Posted 2008-08-30 07:07:50 and read 2676 times.



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
Moo, GW Bush offered to give the Russians, free of charge, the technology and designs needed for Russia to build their own Missile Defence System. The offer was specifically to convince the Russians that we want them to be safe too against an attack by a rogue.

Well, firstly that doesn't solve this little issue - if Russia had the technology there still wouldn't be any way to be 100% sure just what is being installed in Poland short of complete, unfettered, instant access to the site at all times. And we both know that that hasn't been offered and won't ever be offered.

And secondly, Russia isn't in the firing line of the states that this missile shield is supposed to protect from - Russia's probable enemy are precisely the people this missile shield would be useless against because of sheer numbers (IE the US and NATO).

So, sorry but your little tidbit of information is pointless in this discussion.

And I still say that if Russia built a facility in Cuba, there would be huge uproar - the West had enough to say about Russia starting up military flights in international airspace...

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2008-08-30 12:43:29 and read 2633 times.

Moscow halts Iran cooperation with US, will complete Bushehr reactor

DEBKAfile Special Report
August 30, 2008, 7:32 PM (GMT+02:00)

The Georgia quarrel has all but derailed US-Russian cooperation on the Iran issue. Moscow is not only pulling out of the diplomatic and sanctions front against Iran’s nuclear program; according to DEBKAfile’s Russian sources, Moscow has decided to finally finish building Iran’s nuclear reactor in the southern town of Bushehr before the end of the year, after holding back for five years at Washington’s insistence.

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5545

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: AF340
Posted 2008-08-30 12:48:47 and read 2630 times.



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 31):

MadameConcorde, what's with all these dodgy new sources? Debka is known as a source of conspiracy theories...


Show me a real article.



Liam spin 

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: BlackProjects
Posted 2008-08-30 12:50:36 and read 2629 times.

Relax the end of the World isnt due till December 2012 this will all blow over and Calm down.
 old 

Or so the Fruits keep saying.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspa
Username: MD11Engineer
Posted 2008-08-30 13:55:14 and read 2593 times.



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 31):
Moscow halts Iran cooperation with US, will complete Bushehr reactor

DEBKAfile Special Report
August 30, 2008, 7:32 PM (GMT 02:00)

The Georgia quarrel has all but derailed US-Russian cooperation on the Iran issue. Moscow is not only pulling out of the diplomatic and sanctions front against Iran%u2019s nuclear program; according to DEBKAfile%u2019s Russian sources, Moscow has decided to finally finish building Iran%u2019s nuclear reactor in the southern town of Bushehr before the end of the year, after holding back for five years at Washington%u2019s insistence.

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5545

Of course. the Iranian government supports Russias claim for recognising the independence of South Ossetia and Abchasia. In turn Iran hopes to be accepted into the central Asian security organisation. Interestingly China, another member of this group, rejected Russia's proposal.
http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=13074&size=A

Jan

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2008-08-30 14:11:27 and read 2584 times.



Quoting Moo (Reply 30):
And secondly, Russia isn't in the firing line of the states that this missile shield is supposed to protect from - Russia's probable enemy are precisely the people this missile shield would be useless against because of sheer numbers (IE the US and NATO).

So, sorry but your little tidbit of information is pointless in this discussion.

And I still say that if Russia built a facility in Cuba, there would be huge uproar - the West had enough to say about Russia starting up military flights in international airspace...

That's really the bottom line. It's not aimed at the Russians but they're milking it for all it's worth with the useful idiots of the region.

If the Russians want to build an anti missile battery in Cuba, let them. Who gives a rat's ass? Of course they wouldn't spend the money because there's no reason to do it.

Here's the way I see it. It's meant as a statement to the Iranians that they better not point them toward Europe and try the blackmail with the No Dong, Long Dong or Big Dong Daddy they got from the Beloved Leader of Korea because it's not going to work-their queen is checked. Although not specifically a US problem, our interests are involved if people start blackmailing Europe and extorting concessions.

It's also possible that if Iran launches on Israel that a kill shot could be administered before their missile reached its apogee.

At that point it would be impossible to implement a deterrent and get it up and running.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: 11Bravo
Posted 2008-08-30 18:31:42 and read 2550 times.



Quoting Moo (Reply 23):
Thats the thing here, Russia has no way of being 100% certain just *what* is being installed - its not like they can pop over whenever they want and wander around the facility to make sure, now is it?

What nefarious items are you suggesting might "really" be deployed at the Polish site? You seem to be suggesting that the US intends to base something other than the planned GMD system in Poland. Are you suggesting there will be offensive missiles? Why would the US do that when we can already rain down nuclear armageddon on Russia from Minuteman bases in the CONUS, SSBNs at sea, and manned bombers?

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: HowSwedeitis
Posted 2008-08-30 19:05:01 and read 2533 times.



Quoting BlackProjects (Reply 33):
Relax the end of the World isnt due till December 2012

That's right! December 21st 2012!  Wink

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 36):
You seem to be suggesting that the US intends to base something other than the planned GMD system in Poland.

I think that this is what the Russians are assuming. Post Soviet breakdown, many Russians felt humiliated. Their economy was in shambles, much like their military, and there was not much pride. Yeltsin and the horrible Chechen war rattled the nation even further. But when Putin took power, that is when things began to change. Russians began to have more pride in their nation, and (much like their Soviet past) a great sense of pride in their leader. I think that like many news analysts have stated, Russia is flexing it's muscles again... This concerns the Western world greatly due to the close proximity of Iran. Just Armenia and Azerbaijan stand in between Georgia and Iran. Also, in dealing with Iran, US foreign policy has often times depended on Russia. Even further in this can of worms is Kosovo. Russia's strongest Ally, Serbia, is still furious about that. Iran, Georgia, Russia, Serbia, Kosovo, the EU and the US are all players in this very complicated International drama.

-HSII

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: IliriBDL
Posted 2008-08-30 20:23:43 and read 2510 times.

Question for MadameConcorde, do you support the US and the West or are you supporting Russia and their allies?

At least to me it seems that with all these articles that you're bringing up, you're building a case for the Russians and their allies. I might be wrong. You let me know.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: JetsGo
Posted 2008-08-31 01:00:47 and read 2482 times.



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 38):

Are you kidding? That grandma is about as anti-American as they come. It's sickening.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Mir
Posted 2008-08-31 01:06:02 and read 2481 times.



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
What is the difference, exactly?

Your regular SAM is there to stop a conventional tactical air attack. A missile defense system is there to stop a strategic nuclear attack, and eliminate first-strike capability. They are not on the same level at all.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
And conversely (again) if Russia has no plans against Poland, why should they care?

Obviously, the US feels it necessary for some reason to deploy a missile defense on Russia's border. We wouldn't be doing that were we not planning to do something with it, so Russia should be very interested in exactly why we are putting it there.

The US's policy toward Russia post-Cold War has had its drawbacks, particularly the one with regard to NATO expansion. The US was playing as if the Cold War were still going on, trying to isolate the former Soviet satellites from Russia by getting them into NATO and the EU while blocking Russia out. And we wonder why Russia doesn't much care for that and might want to get some influence back?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 35):
It's also possible that if Iran launches on Israel that a kill shot could be administered before their missile reached its apogee.

From Poland? Seems a little out of the way for that.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: David L
Posted 2008-08-31 02:36:17 and read 2463 times.

Let me start by saying that I don't agree with what Russia is doing in Georgia and I don't trust Putin. However, I don't agree with the way Georgia behaved in South Ossetia nor the way the West reacted, either. It seems to me that all sides are being hypocritical about South Ossetia's move for independence by taking pretty much the opposite views to those they took during the breakup of Yugoslavia, for example.

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
Obviously, the US feels it necessary for some reason to deploy a missile defense on Russia's border. We wouldn't be doing that were we not planning to do something with it, so Russia should be very interested in exactly why we are putting it there.

The US's policy toward Russia post-Cold War has had its drawbacks, particularly the one with regard to NATO expansion. The US was playing as if the Cold War were still going on, trying to isolate the former Soviet satellites from Russia by getting them into NATO and the EU while blocking Russia out. And we wonder why Russia doesn't much care for that and might want to get some influence back?

 checkmark  The Russians' view is that an advanced defence system on their borders would reduce their chances of fighting back IF they were attacked by the west, therefore weakening their position on the world stage. Now, I don't believe the west has any plans to attack but that's not the point.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: L410Turbolet
Posted 2008-08-31 03:21:56 and read 2457 times.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
Yet even among some officials in Poland and the Czech Republic, support for the two missile defense bases has more to do with binding the United States closer to their capitals against a future Russian threat than about deterring a future Iranian missile threat.

What's so difficult to understand about Polish/Czech effort to seek additional security against Russian bullying?
The striking similarity between Russian actions in August '68 and August '08 only proved right those who claimed that nothing changed and proved wrong (at that time) idealists like Czech ex-pres Havel who gave a speech in US Congress in 1990 and said something along the lines of "the most you will us [CEE Europe] is by helping the Soviet Union" because the belief at that time was that economically stable will not be threat to its neighbors.
The reality is - unfortunately - quite opposite, the more wealthy Russia is getting the more dangerous they're becoming.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-08-31 04:21:18 and read 2449 times.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 35):
That's really the bottom line. It's not aimed at the Russians but they're milking it for all it's worth with the useful idiots of the region.

My own opinion is that it was primarily the 'balance' of NATO and Russian nuclear weapons that prevented the Cold War from becoming a hot one some time in the Sixties. You'll remember the old "MAD' tag ('Mutually-Assured Destruction') as well as I do.

The point was (and remains) that since ICBMs are unstoppable, whichever side fired first, they would face the certainty of retaliation - more damage than they could possibly 'absorb.' And the equally-important sub-plot was (is?) that the leaders of the countries concerned would 'cop it' as much, or more, as their subjects; there would be many missiles aimed specifically at THEM, and it would only need one to get through.

So any 'anti-missile' system is an attempt to destroy that 'balance of power' and leave it open to the side that has such a system to fire without fear of retaliation. That, plus current US policy of establishing a growing ring of bases right round Russia, is a clear provocation, to which the Russians cannot fail to respond.

The whole idea is a silly one anyway. Most engineering opinion holds that even if you could produce an anti-missile programme that works at all, there is no way that it could be anything like 100% foolproof. And there are so many ICBMs in commission that neither side could be certain of stopping all, or even most, of them.

So the Sixties logic still holds true - neither side can afford to fire because of the certainty of massive retaliation.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 35):
It's also possible that if Iran launches on Israel that a kill shot could be administered before their missile reached its apogee.

What on earth does a defence line in Poland have to do with Israel? Especially since Iran is at least five years away from developing nukes, and probably decades from developing any sort of ICBM?

Unless Russia makes them a present of some, of course. Which isn't entirely out of the question, if the USA keeps provoking them........

[Edited 2008-08-31 04:33:31]

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Baroque
Posted 2008-08-31 04:38:35 and read 2440 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 43):
What on earth does a defence line in Poland have to do with Israel? Especially since Iran is at least five years away from developing nukes, and probably decades from developing any sort of ICBM?

I am glad it is not just me who has a problem working out why Iran would program its missels to fly by Poland on their way. Delaying the apogee that long would be really tricky. And would Czech radars even see them if they did not do such a circuitous approach?

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: IliriBDL
Posted 2008-08-31 07:15:54 and read 2405 times.



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 39):
Are you kidding? That grandma is about as anti-American as they come. It's sickening.

It seems that way from every post that I've read. Wonder if she has ever visited the US.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Moo
Posted 2008-08-31 07:38:50 and read 2397 times.



Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 36):
What nefarious items are you suggesting might "really" be deployed at the Polish site? You seem to be suggesting that the US intends to base something other than the planned GMD system in Poland. Are you suggesting there will be offensive missiles? Why would the US do that when we can already rain down nuclear armageddon on Russia from Minuteman bases in the CONUS, SSBNs at sea, and manned bombers?

No, I'm suggesting there is no way, short of full unfettered access to the site day or night, to convince someone otherwise.

You really think the game of global stand off is a rational one? Besides, your last point can be applied to every single overseas US base in the world.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2008-08-31 10:10:04 and read 2363 times.



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 38):
Question for MadameConcorde, do you support the US and the West or are you supporting Russia and their allies?

At least to me it seems that with all these articles that you're bringing up, you're building a case for the Russians and their allies. I might be wrong. You let me know.

I am not supporting -or trusting- either. Bushco is evil, so is Putin.
However it is not good to ignore the facts.

Russia threatens to supply Iran with top new missile system as 'cold war' escalates
31st Aug 2008
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-system-as-cold-war-escalates.html

Russia is deploying the threat to sell a "game changing" air defence system to Iran as a high stakes bargaining chip in its new "cold war" with America, The Sunday Telegraph has learned.

US intelligence fears the Kremlin will supply the sophisticated S-300 system to Tehran if Washington pushes through Nato membership for its pro-Western neighbours Georgia and Ukraine. The proposed deal is causing huge alarm in the US and Israel as the S-300 can track 100 targets at once and fire on planes up to 75 miles away.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: IliriBDL
Posted 2008-08-31 17:03:35 and read 2326 times.



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 47):
I am not supporting -or trusting- either. Bushco is evil, so is Putin.
However it is not good to ignore the facts.

I will not take anything seriously from you if you put Bush in the same league as Putin.

No one is ignoring facts, it just seems that you're bringing facts from the Russian point of view, which are totally biased.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: HowSwedeitis
Posted 2008-08-31 19:28:06 and read 2303 times.



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 48):
I will not take anything seriously from you if you put Bush in the same league as Putin.

To be fair, you do have a bit of a conflict of interest there... However, with Putin's death-grip on democracy in Russia, I have to agree that Bush can not be placed in the same category of Putin.

-HSII

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2008-08-31 22:02:30 and read 2272 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 43):

What on earth does a defence line in Poland have to do with Israel? Especially since Iran is at least five years away from developing nukes, and probably decades from developing any sort of ICBM?

My ranges were a wee bit off....my guess is the stuff's already deployed somewhere in the middle east. Does anyone think that the Saudis, for example, are interested in watching the Iranians start world war three?

Use your critical thinking powers, Tony. Why all this infernal hubbub over a relatively insignificant project?

Didja ever hear of three card monte? That's a game played on street corners where the mark is shown three cards, one of which is the red queen. Through sleight of hand, the mark always guesses wrong.

Right now the suckers are all looking at where they think the red queen is....unless you think that Uncle is incapable of pulling off a deception.

The Iranians are closer than you think with ICBM technology, as they've acquired North Korean technology which has a significant theoretical range if they can just get the blamed thing to work. That's the problem, you see. You've simply got to choose your vendors wisely.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/missile/

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-08-31 22:42:16 and read 2271 times.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 50):
....my guess is the stuff's already deployed somewhere in the middle east

What sort of 'stuff''?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 50):
Why all this infernal hubbub over a relatively insignificant project?

As I explained above, the first requirement for launching a nuclear attack on a nuclear power is a defence against retaliation. So, in old-fashioned terminology, locating missile defences on the Russian border is a provocation; in modern terms, an 'escalation.'

One sensible thing (maybe the only sensible thing) Karl Marx said was, “History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.” In this case, to my mind, for 'Cuban Missile Crisis' read 'Polish Missile Crisis.'

To put the boot on the other foot, how would you feel if Russia did a deal to install 'anti-missile missiles' in Canada? Russia will feel that it must respond.

Looks as if said response may well 'come out of left field' - defensively-arming the Iranians to make the rumoured 'pre-emptive strike' against Iran too risky and expensive to mount:-

"US intelligence fears the Kremlin will supply the sophisticated S-300 system to Tehran if Washington pushes through Nato membership for its pro-Western neighbours Georgia and Ukraine.

"The proposed deal is causing huge alarm in the US and Israel as the S-300 can track 100 targets at once and fire on planes up to 75 miles away.

"That would make it a "game-changer", greatly improving Iranian defences against any air strike on its nuclear sites, according to Pentagon adviser Dan Goure. "This is a system that scares every Western air force," he said."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-system-as-cold-war-escalates.html

[Edited 2008-08-31 23:12:29]

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Baroque
Posted 2008-08-31 22:46:30 and read 2271 times.



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 50):
The Iranians are closer than you think with ICBM technology, as they've acquired North Korean technology which has a significant theoretical range if they can just get the blamed thing to work. That's the problem, you see. You've simply got to choose your vendors wisely.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/m...sile/

What has that got to do with intent. I do not know what they intend and neither do you.

The main bit of three card monte going on is the US trying to convince the west that Iran has a nuke under one of the cards and an ICBM under each of the other two.

Knowing that maps are not a strong point in Islam, I will be sure to send Ahmad a suitable map when I copy one to you.

Want to have another go at which source missiles based in Poland are well placed to intercept?

And while the critical thinking powers are out, try seeing the salami tactic of Polish missiles from a Russian point of view afore rushing around explaining what a benefit it will be to all and sundry.

So far the main benefit seems to be that it has spurred the Russians into developing a missile not susceptible to the Polish system. Mind, that could be another bit of 3 card monte.

The Saudis, don't forget there is a religious base to that scrap. That tends to make it dangerous for anyone else to try to stick their fingers in!

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Mir
Posted 2008-08-31 23:30:29 and read 2259 times.



Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 36):
Are you suggesting there will be offensive missiles? Why would the US do that when we can already rain down nuclear armageddon on Russia from Minuteman bases in the CONUS, SSBNs at sea, and manned bombers?

Because short- and intermediate-range missiles are the most deadly of all. They give much less warning and are much harder to stop. A missile launched from Poland could destroy Moscow and the Russian command and control structure before Russia could get a counter-attack off, enabling the US to strike at Russia while remaining safe from retaliation. It makes the whole nuclear escalation game a lot more dangerous, because Russia will feel compelled to launch a lot sooner knowing that they may not get the chance should they wait. With ICBMs, they'd know when the US launches, and they'd be able to get their missiles off before they got hit - MAD is more of a certainty.

Which is why Reagan agreed with Gorbachev not to use short- and intermediate-range missiles.


-Mir

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2008-09-01 00:22:29 and read 2254 times.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 48):
No one is ignoring facts, it just seems that you're bringing facts from the Russian point of view, which are totally biased.

Aug 29, 2008 11:13 | Updated Aug 30, 2008 16:50
Report: Israel won't allow a nuclear Iran
By JPOST.COM STAFF

Israel will not allow Iran to attain nuclear capability and if time begins to run out, Jerusalem will not hesitate to take whatever means necessary to prevent Iran from achieving its nuclear goals, the government has recently decided in a special discussion.

According to the Israeli daily Ma'ariv, whether the United States and Western countries succeed in thwarting the Islamic Republic's nuclear ambitions diplomatically, through sanctions, or whether a US strike on Iran is eventually decided upon, Jerusalem has begun preparing for a separate, independent military strike.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull



Aug 31, 2008 22:54 | Updated Aug 31, 2008 22:55
Iran, Russia seek Bushehr completion
By THE MEDIA LINE NEWS AGENCY

Iranians and Russians are meeting this week to discuss the completion of the Bushehr nuclear reactor, which is being constructed with Russian assistance.

A delegation from the Russian power construction company Atomstroyexport will be heading to Iran to discuss the completion of the 1,000-megawatt power plant on Monday. Bushehr, an $800-million project, is Iran's first nuclear power plant and is being built on Iran's coast with Russian assistance under a 1995 contract.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


Don't tell me this is the Russian point of view.   

[Edited 2008-09-01 00:32:24]

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-09-01 06:56:59 and read 2209 times.



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 54):
Jerusalem has begun preparing for a separate, independent military strike.

Just as a matter of interest, I looked up the Russian 'S-300' anti-aircraft system.

Turns out that it doesn't require massive silos and radar stations etc., as I expected - the things are carried on 'TELs,' which (in 'barbarous-military terminology') stands for 'Transporter Erector Launchers.'

So the S-300 is mounted on trucks and/or tracked vehicles, complete with individual detection/targeting/guidance systems. Which means that the Russians could drive any number of them down to Iran in a day or two. Three-day courses for the Iranian Army guys, and maybe a week of field exercises, and they'd be ready to go......

I find that it pays always to remember the oft-quoted, ancient Chinese curse - "May you live in interesting times."

I have a feeling that the various international machinations over the next couple of months are likely to be extremely 'interesting,' one way or another.........

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2008-09-01 12:36:08 and read 2156 times.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 52):
What has that got to do with intent. I do not know what they intend and neither do you.

I think you need to start paying closer attention to Mr. Ahmadinejad's public statements, Alan. He's pretty clear.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Baroque
Posted 2008-09-01 20:26:00 and read 2106 times.



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 56):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 52):
What has that got to do with intent. I do not know what they intend and neither do you.

I think you need to start paying closer attention to Mr. Ahmadinejad's public statements, Alan. He's pretty clear.

1. Iranian rhetoric is different from western rhetoric.
2. What he intends to do is far from clear.
3. He cannot do anything much, that depends on the Ayatollahs.

Just out of interest, list what you think he does intend and then let us see how it stands up to scrutiny.

The thing about him that worries me most is that he seems to think he has a direct connection to a supreme being, remember the halo bit? But then he has little power, whereas someone else who claims direct connection has a great deal of power.

To non-Iranians he seems odd but, for example, comment on this
http://www.ahmadinejad.ir/
Undoubtedly, the American people are not satisfied with this behavior and they showed their discontent in the recent elections. I hope that in the wake of the mid-term elections, the administration of President Bush will have heard and will heed the message of the American people.

My questions are the following:

Is there not a better approach to governance?

Is it not possible to put wealth and power in the service of peace, stability, prosperity and the happiness of all peoples through a commitment to justice and respect for the rights of all nations, instead of aggression and war?

We all condemn terrorism, because its victims are the innocent.

But, can terrorism be contained and eradicated through war, destruction and the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocents?

If that were possible, then why has the problem not been resolved?

The sad experience of invading Iraq is before us all.

What has blind support for the Zionists by the US administration brought for the American people? It is regrettable that for the US administration, the interests of these occupiers supersedes the interests of the American people and of the other nations of the world.

What have the Zionists done for the American people that the US administration considers itself obliged to blindly support these infamous aggressors? Is it not because they have imposed themselves on a substantial portion of the banking, financial, cultural and media sectors?

I recommend that in a demonstration of respect for the American people and for humanity, the right of Palestinians to live in their own homeland should be recognized so that millions of Palestinian refugees can return to their homes and the future of all of Palestine and its form of government be determined in a referendum. This will benefit everyone.

Now that Iraq has a Constitution and an independent Assembly and Government, would it not be more beneficial to bring the US officers and soldiers home, and to spend the astronomical US military expenditures in Iraq for the welfare and prosperity of the American people? As you know very well, many victims of Katrina continue to suffer, and countless Americans continue to live in poverty and homelessness.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-09-02 04:03:41 and read 2065 times.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 50):
My ranges were a wee bit off....my guess is the stuff's already deployed somewhere in the middle east. Does anyone think that the Saudis, for example, are interested in watching the Iranians start world war three?



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 50):
Use your critical thinking powers, Tony. Why all this infernal hubbub over a relatively insignificant project?

Robert, you're perfectly capable of 'lateral thinking' yourself; and you usually exhibit a great sense of humour. How come you seem lately to be filtering everything through an inverted 'Israel v. Iran' telescope?

I don't see the Israel problem as anything like big enough to kick off WW3 - provided that the leaders of the major powers (including the USA, after November) keep their sense of proportion.

After all, territorial squabbles over the Holy Land have been endemic since the dawn of modern times. In the Middle Ages even the Christians reckoned that it was their property, and kicked off the Crusades to try to drive the Moslems out.

Christianity eventually 'grew out of it,' and I expect that, given time, the more moderate members of the Jewish faith willl eventually do the same.

Mind you - applying my 'critical faculties' - if I happened to be a 'world leader' I'd currently be thinking that if Israel, backed by the USA during Bush's last few weeks in office, carries out an air assault on Iran (very probably including the use of nuclear weapons) that very well could precipitate WW3. Or, at the very least, provoke a wave of inter-racial conflict that would last for decades or even centuries (as the Crusades did, in their time).

I'd make it my first priority to do everything I could prevent any such operation. Probably by immediately equipping Iran with the best possible air defence systems.

Which is very probably what Putin is about to do.......

Personally, I hope he - or someone - does exactly that......

[Edited 2008-09-02 04:08:40]

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2008-09-07 09:56:45 and read 1945 times.

Counter Terrorism Bureau tells Israelis: Leave Sinai immediately
By Haaretz Service

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1018269.html


Olmert: We must prepare now for the evacuation of West Bank settlers
By Barak Ravid, Haaretz Correspondent

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1018822.html


Couple these warnings with US, Israel, and Turkey military exercises in the area

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...194419829128&videoId=1220526726567


Cheney: Russian arms reaching Hizbullah

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


 Confused  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: HapppyLandings
Posted 2008-09-07 14:56:22 and read 1924 times.



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 18):
You're missing one very important thing...The Cuban Missiles had Nuke Warheads..These are interceptors pure and simple. 10 interceptors do NOTHING to stop Moscow's Nuclear ICBMs, bombers, and Missile Submarines. It's pure posturing..



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
If Russia put similar missiles in Cuba, I don't think the U.S. would have any problem with it. They would not be a threat to anyone.

I still do not appreciate the USA messing with the Russians through my home country, it is blatant disrespect and fully taking advantage of the moronic government there at the moment. The Polish in general are very much against pissing off the government of Russia, we were occupied by the Russians for a very long time and we would really not like a repeat of this situation, most Americans would have an incredibly hard time comprehending how bad it was under Russian rule, considering how warm and cozy they have had it all of their lives.

If the USA wants to play games, let them put their own citizens at risk and quit pressuring Poland for 'test' purposes.

I wish I can tell that moron GWB to go fuck himself to his face, but he has too much security as Billions of people around the world would want to do worse to him.

Thank you George you prick, for putting the lives of the Polish at risk. Regardless of the implications of these missiles, it is a CLEAR slap in the face to Russia, a provocation and nothing less. George W Jack ass, If you want to slap the Russians, please do it with your own hand! Oh, I forgot, you do not have the Balls to do that do you now?

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Johns624
Posted 2008-09-07 15:09:54 and read 1917 times.



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 60):
I still do not appreciate the USA messing with the Russians through my home country...

Geez, HappyLandings, you don't seem to think much of your fellow former countrymen. You sound like you think they are just a bunch of idiot simpletons. Maybe you've taken too many Polish jokes to heart... Smile

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: HapppyLandings
Posted 2008-09-07 15:14:28 and read 1916 times.



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 61):
Geez, HappyLandings, you don't seem to think much of your fellow former countrymen. You sound like you think they are just a bunch of idiot simpletons. Maybe you've taken too many Polish jokes to heart...

Polish jokes do not bother me, all in good fun. And I think VERY highly of my fellow former country men, just not very highly of the current government in place there at the moment. If you got that somehow from my post, then please revise your opinion.

The problem is, that a few morons in government can risk the lives of thousands or millions of their fellow countrymen, and most of the time it is for personal gain.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Johns624
Posted 2008-09-07 15:22:11 and read 1911 times.

Madame Concorde- In Post #1 you posted a news story that said the US was going to attack Iran "imminently". Then in #59, it's the Israelis. Make up your mind, which one is it? For one thing, it's been well over a week since the "imminent" attack. Sorry, that time frame has expired. If you believe everything you read in the paper I have news for you...

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2008-09-08 03:24:41 and read 1893 times.



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 63):

No mainstream media, the Murdoch et al.

Time is relative. The matter is not if but when.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north648.html

Both potential U.S. Administrations (Obama/McSame) have specifically said they will back Israel and ensure Iran doesn't complete the nuclear fuel cycle.... at all costs.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Johns624
Posted 2008-09-08 05:18:54 and read 1868 times.



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 64):




http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north648.html

.

Another non-source. When anyone refers to helicopter assault ships as aircraft carriers, they lose all credence with me. Who is Lew Rockwell anyways?

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: David L
Posted 2008-09-08 05:25:53 and read 1868 times.



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 63):
Madame Concorde- In Post #1 you posted a news story that said the US was going to attack Iran "imminently". Then in #59, it's the Israelis. Make up your mind, which one is it

 checkmark  There's a huge difference. One definitely isn't going to happen any time soon and the other has been a possibility for many years. Nothing new here.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 64):
Both potential U.S. Administrations (Obama/McSame) have specifically said they will back Israel and ensure Iran doesn't complete the nuclear fuel cycle.... at all costs

"At all costs"? Are you sure that's what they said and not just what appears in blogs?

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-09-08 06:50:50 and read 1852 times.

Quoting Johns624 (Reply 63):
For one thing, it's been well over a week since the "imminent" attack. Sorry, that time frame has expired.

Not so nowadays, Johns624. The logistics and planning processes are far more complicated lately. If you recall, Gulf War One was the best part of a year in preparation - Gulf War Two more than that.

The other problem is climatic conditions. As far as I know, even nowadays, air bombardment still requires clear weather (and, especially, moderate winds) for maximum efficiency/effect. Also as far as I know, the 'optimum' time for air operations in the Middle East is a few months either side of Christmas - for example, Gulf War One began in January 1991, the invasion of Afghanistan in October 2001, the invasion of Iraq in April 2002........

I believe that, at almost any other time of year, there is a risk of sandstorms or duststorms obscuring the targets, and also causing bombs and/or missiles to drift off course.

In this case there is also the problem of the Presidential election campaign. My guess (of course, only a guess} is that early October is probably the best 'compromise' time in both climatic and political terms. Late enough to give them a good chance of reasonable weather, and early enough to give the US public time (maybe even enough time) to get used to the idea of the Bush Administration starting yet another war before they vote.

Takes me back, in a way. As it happens, I was living in England in early 1982 and was 'consulted' about an obscure point affecting planning for the British assault on the Falklands. The guys who asked me were under the (mistaken) impression that, havng been in the army, I had signed the Official Secrets Act. In fact, I'd dodged actually signing it, as most people had - but I didn't let on, nor will I ever publish details of the conversation,

But I do remember saying, "They're reckoning on going in in April? Don't you Poms realise that that's bloody winter in the Southern Hemisphere? Like freezing, down there."

And the guy I was talking to said, "Yes, chum. Not our business really. But I expect that the powers-that-be are hoping that that's why the Argies will reckon that we won't get round to doing anything decisive until September........."

[Edited 2008-09-08 07:03:04]

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspa
Username: David L
Posted 2008-09-08 16:23:03 and read 1810 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 67):
Not so nowadays, Johns624. The logistics and planning processes are far more complicated lately

These predictions of a US attack on Iran, based on "privileged information" (i.e. dodgy websites), have been going on for much, much longer than "a week".

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: 11Bravo
Posted 2008-09-08 18:16:46 and read 1793 times.



Quoting David L (Reply 68):
These predictions of a US attack on Iran, based on "privileged information" (i.e. dodgy websites), have been going on for much, much longer than "a week".

Several years is my recollection. I suppose that could be considered "Imminent" on some kind of pseudo-gelogical scale.

If the US or Israel bombs the Iranian nuclear sites, the first we'll hear about it will be about two hours after the pilots are debriefed.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Johns624
Posted 2008-09-08 18:34:54 and read 1784 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 67):
Not so nowadays, Johns624. The logistics and planning processes are far more complicated lately. If you recall, Gulf War One was the best part of a year in preparation - Gulf War Two more than that.

Here's what I got from dictionary.com
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
im·mi·nent Audio Help /ˈɪmənənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[im-uh-nuhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. likely to occur at any moment; impending: Her death is imminent.
So "imminent" means what I said it does. I'm not Bill Clinton so I can't change definitions to suit my purpose..."I did not have sexual relations with that woman".  Smile

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-09-08 21:31:55 and read 1771 times.



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 70):
So "imminent" means what I said it does.

Fiar enough, Johns624 - but we are, after all, only discussing the word chosen by the thread-starter. The actual word used in the headline is 'verwacht,' which (subject to advice from speakers of Dutch) I take to mean 'foreseen' or 'expected.'

The report originated in the Kuwaiti Times, and has since been quoted by the Jerusalem Post as well as De Telegraaf. The Kuwait origin could be significant since Kuwait is virtually 'GHQ' for all US forces in the Gulf region. The two most salient points, to my mind, are:-

1. The USA is deploying no less that three carrier strike groups, plus a tactical air support group. They've had up to two carriers there at times, but never three before - not since the invasion of Iraq, anyway.

2. There is every sign that NATO forces are also getting involved. The British are also sending a carrier (I believe their only carrier) and the French are contributing carrier-based aircraft.

"Coming on the heels of Operation Brimstone just a week ago that saw U.S., British and French naval forces participate in war games in the Atlantic Ocean, the object of which was to practice enforcing an eventual blockade on Iran, the joint task force is now headed for the Gulf and what could easily turn into a major confrontation with Iran.

"The naval force comprises a U.S. Navy super carrier battle group and is accompanied by an expeditionary carrier battle group, a British Royal Navy carrier battle group and a French nuclear hunter-killer submarine.

"Leading the pack is the nuclear-powered carrier, the USS Theodore Roosevelt and its Carrier Strike Group Two; besides its 80-plus combat planes the Roosevelt normally transports, it is carrying an additional load of French Naval Rafale fighter jets from the French carrier Charles de Gaulle, currently in dry dock.

"Also reported heading toward Iran is another nuclear-powered carrier, the USS Ronald Reagan and its Carrier Strike Group Seven; the USS Iwo Jima, the Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal and a number of French warships, including the nuclear hunter-killer submarine Amethyste.

"Once the naval force arrives in the Gulf region it will be joining two other U.S. naval battle groups already on site: the USS Abraham Lincoln and the USS Peleliu; the Lincoln with its carrier strike group and the latter with an expeditionary strike group.

"Telephone calls to the Pentagon were not returned by publication time.

"This deployment is the largest naval task force from the United States and allied countries to assemble in the strategic waters of the Persian Gulf since the two Gulf wars."


http://www.metimes.com/International...ait_readying_for_war_in_gulf/7724/

Personally I'm 'in two minds' on this - or maybe three. I simply can't bring myself to believe that even Dubya could be mad enough to start yet a third shooting war in the last few weeks of his term - when the presidential election campaign is actually in progress. Especially one right on Russia's back doorstep. Nor can I readily accept that the British and the French would be foolish enough to get involved.

But on the other hand, all that expensive hardware can't just be being sent there for no reason. You wouldn't need anything like that amount of firepower just to set up a naval blockade, as suggested by the article.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: StasisLAX
Posted 2008-09-08 21:55:47 and read 1768 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 71):
Especially one right on Russia's back doorstep

And especially an Iranian nuclear program that Comrade Putin has very publicly supported.

"Mr Putin told journalists that "peaceful nuclear activities must be allowed" and cautioned against using force to resolve the dispute over Iran."

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7046258.stm

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: David L
Posted 2008-09-09 02:55:01 and read 1732 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 71):
Personally I'm 'in two minds' on this - or maybe three. I simply can't bring myself to believe that even Dubya could be mad enough to start yet a third shooting war in the last few weeks of his term - when the presidential election campaign is actually in progress. Especially one right on Russia's back doorstep. Nor can I readily accept that the British and the French would be foolish enough to get involved.

But on the other hand, all that expensive hardware can't just be being sent there for no reason. You wouldn't need anything like that amount of firepower just to set up a naval blockade, as suggested by the article.

There's a much more likely explanation: a show of force to turn the pressure up on Iran. But that doesn't make such dramatic headlines for sensationalist "news" organisations. These types of stories tend to emanate from sources that want Bush to do make an arse of himself.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Baroque
Posted 2008-09-09 03:25:56 and read 1721 times.



Quoting David L (Reply 73):
There's a much more likely explanation: a show of force to turn the pressure up on Iran. But that doesn't make such dramatic headlines for sensationalist "news" organisations.

The trouble is, David, that some of us are remembering what followed the show of force towards Iraq, and all the while PMs Blair and Howard were assuring us no decision had been made. Howard was known by some of his colleagues as the Lying Rodent, and I guess that is about the time Blair got his vowels in a twist and came out Bliar.

Once bitten ??? What was the phrase W butchered about once, twice and shame????

You may be right, but do we want to trust them again?

And in any case, would Ahmad know he was supposed to be frightened, somehow I rather doubt it. There seems to be a touch of cognitive dissonance on both sides.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-09-09 04:05:29 and read 1715 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 73):
There's a much more likely explanation: a show of force to turn the pressure up on Iran.

But 'turn the pressure up on Iran' to achieve what, DavidL? There's no evidence that Iran is developing nukes - even El Baradei (who would know, if anyone would) says that there is no evidence at all that they're doing any such thing. Not to mention the Russians, who are helping them design and build their nuclear plants; and have technicians working in the plants who will be killed if there is an attack. And, as I said earlier, even if the Iranians can achieve nuclear fission, they're decades away from developing any sort of ICBM to 'deliver' bombs to the USA.......

Seems to me very much like a Hollywood-style 'sequel' - 'Weapons of Mass Destruction II.' The only difference being that this time, if it happens, it will be a bombing offensive only - beyond a few coastal raids to knock out port facilities, the USA (even with British and French help) doesn't have anything like the ground force resources necessary physically to invade and occupy Iran.

Funny (in the sense of 'funny-peculiar') that the last person who tried to force a country to surrender by means of a bombing offensive only was the late - unlamented - Adolf Schickelgrueber in the 1940s. As the likes of Baroque and I can vividly recall.

Can't help feeling that the more 'carnivorous' Republican power-brokers are still clinging to the idea that bombing the daylights out of a few 'unimportant' people, in the context of US politics, tends to translate into short-term political popularity.........maybe enough to win the November election.....

Sincerely hope I'm dead wrong.

[Edited 2008-09-09 04:06:35]

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspa
Username: David L
Posted 2008-09-09 04:19:19 and read 1701 times.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 74):
The trouble is, David, that some of us are remembering what followed the show of force towards Iraq

I don't think there was much doubt about the intent to attack Iraq and Afghanistan if certain conditions did not prevail. But those forays gave all concerned quite a dose of reality - a reminder that initial military success is not enough, especially if it generates significant international opposition.

My main point, though, remains that the evidence of an "imminent" US/UK/French attack on Iran is coming from precisely the sources you'd expect to hear it from.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: BlackProjects
Posted 2008-09-09 04:44:09 and read 1689 times.

Seems the Israeli Secret Service are looking at Snatching the Iranian President or so a Former member has said.

Methinks Iran's president mite consider Shutting up and stop bothering his neighbour or he mite go out for a meeting with his mates and not come back,Next seen on trial in Israel which would certainly take the wind out of Iran's sails.

 old 

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-09-09 04:48:01 and read 1688 times.



Quoting David L (Reply 76):
My main point, though, remains that the evidence of an "imminent" US/UK/French attack on Iran is coming from precisely the sources you'd expect to hear it from.

With respect, David L, the 'evidence' appears to be both factual and ominous. No less that three US carrier battle groups, a tactical support group, virtually the entire British Fleet Air Arm, and the French equivalent, all closing in on the Gulf - see Post 71 above............

IMO it's not 'rumour' any more. It's 'virtual fact.' More a matter of 'when' than 'whether'..........

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: BlackProjects
Posted 2008-09-09 04:55:46 and read 1679 times.

If a war Breaks out in the Gulf it will last a couple of weeks and then Iran will be a different country.

Some parts of it mite Glow in the dark for a few thousand years all by them selves but thats progress to peace.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: David L
Posted 2008-09-09 05:18:39 and read 1670 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 78):
With respect, David L, the 'evidence' appears to be both factual and ominous. No less that three US carrier battle groups, a tactical support group, virtually the entire British Fleet Air Arm, and the French equivalent, all closing in on the Gulf - see Post 71 above............

The evidence that there is a show of force in the Gulf? Does anyone disgaree with that? That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about evidence that the US has decided to attack without international consensus - see Post 73 above............

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: NAV20
Posted 2008-09-09 05:37:56 and read 1663 times.



Quoting David L (Reply 80):
We're talking about evidence that the US has decided to attack without international consensus

That's exactly what may be happening, David L. Except that I think that Israel may do the actual 'attacking,' with US intelligence and logistical support. Or, otherwise, that the USA will fabricate an 'emergency' by provoking another 'patrol-boat incident' in the Gulf.......

Thing is - I expect that we can both agree that there is no 'urgency' in the situation. Iran is years off developing either nukes or the means of delivering them. So why, exactly, is there any need to 'pressure' Iran at this stage?

In nay case, Ahmedinajad doesn't run Iran - the mullahs do. So why, out of the whole sorry messed-up world, is he suddenly 'Public Enemy Number One,' deserving of what seems to be about the biggest military build-up since Vietnam?

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: David L
Posted 2008-09-09 05:57:01 and read 1656 times.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 81):
Except that I think that Israel may do the actual 'attacking,'

That is not the allegation.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 81):
Iran is years off developing either nukes or the means of delivering them. So why, exactly, is there any need to 'pressure' Iran at this stage?

So why, exactly, is there any need for the US to attack Iran at this stage? Doesn't it make sense to apply pressure first and think about attacking afterwards, if and when the pressure doesn't work? I get the distinct impression that a lot of people are desperately hoping the US does do "something stupid", despite recent lessons learned.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 81):
In nay case, Ahmedinajad doesn't run Iran - the mullahs do. So why, out of the whole sorry messed-up world, is he suddenly 'Public Enemy Number One,'

The allegations are that the US has decided to attack Iran, not to attack Ahmadinejad.

Topic: RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2008-09-09 16:35:46 and read 1618 times.



Quoting David L (Reply 82):
I get the distinct impression that a lot of people are desperately hoping the US does do "something stupid", despite recent lessons learned.

I think you're absolutely correct about that.


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