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Topic: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: Beaucaire
Posted 2008-10-16 05:33:08 and read 2781 times.

..and argue they are sick and tired on reporting permanently about driver's drug-abuse and cheating honest competitors..
In my eyes a wise decision which should be followed by other TV stations around the globe.
Those who cheat should be banned from participating in sports events-full stop !
There is no excuse whatsoever and if that should bring down the tour- so be it !
Organizers have been much to relaxed albeit knowing about drug-abuse since years..

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: TheSonntag
Posted 2008-10-16 06:14:42 and read 2769 times.

Finally. They withdrew once and said that the Tour gets a 2nd chance, and some idiots didn't get it, so it is the correct decision.

However, in some respect it is a very sad decision, because the doping discoveries of the latest Tour de France actually showed that they, indeed, did set up a functioning, working Anti-Doping system, as there have never been so many doping discoveries as this year.

So the Tour became victim of its own ambitious Anti-Doping-System. Still, the decision is understandable and correct.

[Edited 2008-10-16 06:16:42]

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: Pyrex
Posted 2008-10-18 08:34:58 and read 2635 times.

Are they pulling out of cycling all together? That would be the correct thing to do, otherwise this just sounds like pandering.

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2008-10-18 09:42:43 and read 2615 times.

Le Tour de France has become a farce.
Long gone are the days of Anquetil and Poulidor.  Sad

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-10-18 20:43:09 and read 2578 times.



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Those who cheat should be banned from participating in sports events-full stop !

They do get bans. But clearly this isn't enough to deter them from using drugs.

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: SHUPirate1
Posted 2008-10-18 20:50:19 and read 2576 times.

Wait...wouldn't German TV say "nein" instead of "no"?

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2008-10-18 20:55:19 and read 2573 times.



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
..and argue they are sick and tired on reporting permanently about driver's drug-abuse and cheating honest competitors..

This is another thing we've got to have a divergence of opinion.

All that's going to happen is that a lot of Germans won't get to watch coverage on local TV so they'll have to go to cable or satellite or internet coverage. They'll be slightly inconvenienced, in other words.

Everyone in Germany who wants to watch the Tour will therefore not be deprived.

So, probe a little further for the real reason for this grandstanding and futile exercise in thought control. You might just come up with some surprising conclusions, like, maybe, it's not profitable for the network when a German fellow is not highly placed?

Censorship is stupid, no matter how well intentioned it promotes itself as being.. It is an attempt to, in the words of Tunis Wortman, "erect domestic tranquility on the bones of civil liberty."

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De Fr
Username: Beaucaire
Posted 2008-10-18 21:18:28 and read 2563 times.

Doug- I agree to disagree over this one with you..
quote :

"...On Monday it was announced Kohl, the best climber at this year's Tour de France and third overall, tested positive for the latest generation of the banned blood booster EPO (erythropoietin), named CERA.

Kohl is the second Gerolsteiner rider, and fourth from the Tour de France after Italians Riccardo Ricco and Leonardo Piepoli, to test positive for the drug along with Germany's Stefan Schumacher.

Gerolsteiner's sponsorship of the team was set to come to an end at the end of this year, but the German mineral water company have decided to withdraw from the peloton with immediate effect....."

Gerolsteiner team has well positioned riders in the crew who were commercially attractive as publicity bearer for the sponsor.
But German public opinion is extremely negative about any sportsman (or women) taking drugs illegally and the multitude of doping cases tied to the Tour has had as a result that the commercial uitility of entertaining a sponsored team was furtile .

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: Leskova
Posted 2008-10-19 06:48:47 and read 2522 times.



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 6):
You might just come up with some surprising conclusions, like, maybe, it's not profitable for the network when a German fellow is not highly placed?

Read up on how much ARD and ZDF really need to watch out for profitability... they're funded by us having to pay for them, whether we want to or not. If you buy a TV, you must register and pay for them - if you watch them or not.

Considering how they spend money on occasion, profitability is clearly one of their last priorities... if it is a priority at all.

They, together with the low-quality garbage shown on Germany's private TV channels, were amongst the reasons why we haven't had a TV for two years now.

But at least this decision is something I can support wholeheartedly.

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: Flexo
Posted 2008-10-19 06:58:07 and read 2513 times.

The problem here is that this decision will make officials in other fields of professional sports very cautious to announce cases of doping. In fact I can see this harming the anti-doping case.

Tour de France will suffer from this mostly due to less money they get from German TV. Also popularity of the Tour de France has been greatly reduced by the specactular doping cases (i.e Armstrong, Ulrich, ...).

I can see e.g. the IOC to be very carefuly that this will never happen to the olympic games. They might just turn a blind eye on doping in the future.

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-10-19 13:24:24 and read 2452 times.



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France

Not fully. They will stop broadcasting LIVE from the TdF, they will still deliver reports on each stage in regular sports shows, such as the Sportschau, or even in the news (e.g. Tagesschau). They'll simply not show the Tour de France live.

This pullout of live coverage will also extend towards any cycling event, which includes, but is not exclusive to the Deutschland Tour (which will be cancelled), probably also the Giro d'Italia, the Vuelta, the Hamburg Cyclassics, even the Street Cycling World Championship, etc.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 2):
Are they pulling out of cycling all together?

As I said, it's not a full pullout. Cycling will simply get the same treatment as other niche sports.

On another note, I believe that what the AFLD, the French Anti-Doping agency did, re-checking the blood samples of the most suspect riders once a new method for detecting CERA has been put into the market, was the right thing to do. It shows that at least they care about something, unlike the UCI which has been sloppy in its tests.

Quoting Flexo (Reply 9):
I can see e.g. the IOC to be very carefuly that this will never happen to the olympic games. They might just turn a blind eye on doping in the future.

You never know with the IOC, that's for sure. One thing I do imagine is that the one who will continue to turn a blind eye on doping will be the UCI. So far, they have not even made a statement on what has happened, even though this hurts all of cycling, even if the TdF is no longer under the watch of UCI.

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2008-10-19 19:47:36 and read 2404 times.



Quoting Leskova (Reply 8):
Read up on how much ARD and ZDF really need to watch out for profitability... they're funded by us having to pay for them, whether we want to or not. If you buy a TV, you must register and pay for them - if you watch them or not.

Considering how they spend money on occasion, profitability is clearly one of their last priorities... if it is a priority at all.

that's not profitability in any sort of a level playing field-that's an exaction: "Want a television? Pay up, asshole." I prefer my criminals of the old fashioned variety where there's no guessing about the intent.

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: WunalaYann
Posted 2008-10-19 22:31:06 and read 2386 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 10):
On another note, I believe that what the AFLD, the French Anti-Doping agency did, re-checking the blood samples of the most suspect riders once a new method for detecting CERA has been put into the market, was the right thing to do. It shows that at least they care about something, unlike the UCI which has been sloppy in its tests.

 checkmark 

I do not know if it is scientifically or technically feasible but it would be very valuable if we were able to hold on to samples for periods of, say, ten years.

It is widely known that cheats are a few years ahead of whistle-blowers so it would be great if we could get a chance to test samples once we (whistle-blowers) make some breakthrough in anti-doping testing.

And if it means stripping someone of their title ten years after they "won" it, so be it.

 Smile

Quoting Flexo (Reply 9):
Tour de France will suffer from this mostly due to less money they get from German TV. Also popularity of the Tour de France has been greatly reduced by the specactular doping cases (i.e Armstrong, Ulrich, ...).

Considering the Tour de France is one of the UCI's largest cash cows and its main showcase, alleged dwindling viewership may actually push the UCI towards transparency and decency.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 3):
Long gone are the days of Anquetil and Poulidor. Sad

I have trouble imagining that they were dope-free but that's just a personal opinion.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
So the Tour became victim of its own ambitious Anti-Doping-System.

I disagree. I think the Tour fell victim of the "win-at-all-cost" mentality that has plagued professional sport since its inception. If anything, the AFLD has done sports a favour, in my opinion.

 Smile

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-10-19 23:16:01 and read 2381 times.



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 12):
Considering the Tour de France is one of the UCI's largest cash cows and its main showcase, alleged dwindling viewership may actually push the UCI towards transparency and decency.

The Tour de France is no longer considered an UCI sanctioned event. It's not even in the UCI Pro Tour anymore as of 2008, which is due to a dispute between Amaury Sport Organisation (the organiser) and UCI. This dispute is likely in part because of UCI's handling of doping cases in previous tours, and in other cylcing events. The Tour is today organised by Amaury Sport Organisation and sanctioned by the French Cycling Federation FFC (not by UCI).

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 11):
that's not profitability in any sort of a level playing field-that's an exaction: "Want a television? Pay up, asshole." I prefer my criminals of the old fashioned variety where there's no guessing about the intent.

It does have to do with profitability, because then people could stop paying for the rights to view public television (ARD, ZDF, local public stations also known as "Drittes Programm", etc.), thus money could get lost as a result of low ratings and lower income from payments made by people who have registered their TV and radio sets.

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: WunalaYann
Posted 2008-10-20 00:47:31 and read 2372 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
The Tour de France is no longer considered an UCI sanctioned event. It's not even in the UCI Pro Tour anymore as of 2008, which is due to a dispute between Amaury Sport Organisation (the organiser) and UCI. This dispute is likely in part because of UCI's handling of doping cases in previous tours, and in other cylcing events. The Tour is today organised by Amaury Sport Organisation and sanctioned by the French Cycling Federation FFC (not by UCI).

I stand absolutely corrected. Thank you for the info. I thought the Tour was a kind of joint venture between the UCI and Amaury and that professional cyclists still had to be registered with both bodies.

Thanks for the correction.

 Smile

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: Flexo
Posted 2008-10-20 01:16:04 and read 2366 times.



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 12):
If anything, the AFLD has done sports a favour, in my opinion.

Yes it has, but it hasn't done a favor to TdF's profitability and popularity. Sad but true.

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De Fr
Username: MD11Engineer
Posted 2008-10-20 02:47:38 and read 2347 times.

There is one big difference most people don' see:
If the public German TV staions do full time coverage of the Tour de France, they will have to pay their organisers (effectively from German tax money) to be allowed to set up their cameras (they do the same with the German football (soccer) Bundesliga or broadcasting full matches). Marketing the TV rights is a major source of income to the organisers of the tour.
If they only report in a 30 second fragment in the daily news (e.g. the "Tagesschau" at 8pm CET or "Heute" (for the other channel) at 7pm CET), it is considered normal reporting and they don't need to pay licence fees.

Jan

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: Flexo
Posted 2008-10-20 09:38:13 and read 2287 times.



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):
they will have to pay their organisers (effectively from German tax money)

This is what's making me mad, we can already watch it on Eurosport for free, why is there a need to use taxpayer money to show it on another channel simultaneously?

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: Leskova
Posted 2008-10-20 13:52:05 and read 2247 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 11):
that's not profitability in any sort of a level playing field-that's an exaction: "Want a television? Pay up, asshole." I prefer my criminals of the old fashioned variety where there's no guessing about the intent.

It does have to do with profitability, because then people could stop paying for the rights to view public television (ARD, ZDF, local public stations also known as "Drittes Programm", etc.), thus money could get lost as a result of low ratings and lower income from payments made by people who have registered their TV and radio sets.

You haven't tried de-registering a TV lately, haven't you? It's probably a lot easier to get German citizenship if you're a convicted murderer... I haven't been able to get mine deregistered for close to two years now (though I admit I only tried twice so far). The answer was that I could always get a new one...  Yeah sure

If you own a TV, or anything that has a TV-signal receiver (i.e. video recorder, dvd recorder), you must pay. That's the legal basis for this nonsense.

Quoting Flexo (Reply 17):
This is what's making me mad, we can already watch it on Eurosport for free, why is there a need to use taxpayer money to show it on another channel simultaneously?

I'd say it's even worse since you usually don't only get to see such "events" on just one channel, but i.e. on ARD and half of the "Dritte" programs as well. Complete waste of money and frequencies...

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: StuckInCA
Posted 2008-10-20 14:05:14 and read 2245 times.



Quoting Flexo (Reply 9):
The problem here is that this decision will make officials in other fields of professional sports very cautious to announce cases of doping. In fact I can see this harming the anti-doping case.

I see this as an unintended consequence for sure. It's silly to think that other sports are less dirty than cycling.

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: WunalaYann
Posted 2008-10-20 14:33:13 and read 2235 times.



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 19):
I see this as an unintended consequence for sure.

Don't worry. Let them set foot in France, give the AFLD a chance to pick up some samples and the scandals will start mounting.  Wink

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 19):
It's silly to think that other sports are less dirty than cycling.

 checkmark  I second your statement 200%. I have played sports virtually all my life, I am a keen follower of it, and I firmly believe in Olympic values, therefore I am saddened and disgusted by what professional sport has become.

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-10-20 14:41:09 and read 2232 times.



Quoting Leskova (Reply 18):
You haven't tried de-registering a TV lately, haven't you?

It's been 10 years since I was in Germany, Frank, and even then I thought it was much easier. Over here in Costa Rica, there is no GEZ, but lots of crap television nonetheless (I spare myself the horrors of Costa Rican national television by having gotten a digital cable subscription).

Though I agree, this GEZ business is total BS, it's old fashioned and pretty much useless, especially since ARD and ZDF, from what I have gathered, are starting to show more things that have a frightening similarly to the crap on private television networks such as RTL, Pro 7 and, the worst of them all, Sat 1. And what's even worse, didn't the GEZ want to include computers as devices that need to be registered with them?

Anyway, if I go to Germany, I'll see if I can do what my father did when we were still there, only register one television set (back then, we had three TVs, one stereo, and another two radio watches) and not register anything else (and maybe get a Satellite antenna with DVB-S receiver or Cable and a DVB-C box). I don't think they go house to house to check if you lied on your registration, or do they? I mean, how does the GEZ even control that? We never even had someone from the GEZ coming to our home back then.

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: YOWza
Posted 2008-10-20 14:42:16 and read 2232 times.

I'm confused, people actually watch cycling? I can honestly say that I don't have a single friend or family member that does, and there are not a lot of sports about which I can say that.

YOWza

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: WunalaYann
Posted 2008-10-20 15:31:17 and read 2223 times.



Quoting YOWza (Reply 22):
I'm confused, people actually watch cycling?

Oh yes.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 22):
there are not a lot of sports about which I can say that.

Lawn balls?  Wink

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: YOWza
Posted 2008-10-20 15:36:48 and read 2219 times.



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 23):
Lawn balls

My Latin teacher from back in the day Mr Carruthers used to big huge on law bowls! Then again he was rather fat so his options were limited  Wink

YOWza

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: WunalaYann
Posted 2008-10-20 15:37:46 and read 2218 times.



Quoting YOWza (Reply 24):
law bowls!

 rotfl  You mean the dish where you cook the Constitution and Civil Code together?  Wink

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2008-10-20 17:53:22 and read 2206 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
It does have to do with profitability, because then people could stop paying for the rights to view public television (ARD, ZDF, local public stations also known as "Drittes Programm", etc.), thus money could get lost as a result of low ratings and lower income from payments made by people who have registered their TV and radio sets.

Do you suppose that was why it was so easy for you know who to round up the radios in the countries they occupied? That they were all nicely registered?

Quoting Leskova (Reply 18):
If you own a TV, or anything that has a TV-signal receiver (i.e. video recorder, dvd recorder), you must pay. That's the legal basis for this nonsense.

It's a fraud and a ripoff.

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: YOWza
Posted 2008-10-21 06:17:57 and read 2168 times.



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 25):
You mean the dish where you cook the Constitution and Civil Code together?

ahem that should have been lawn bowls  Smile

YOWza

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: Luckyone
Posted 2008-10-21 07:50:14 and read 2160 times.



Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 5):
Wait...wouldn't German TV say "nein" instead of "no"?

Or "nej" if you prefer the slang  Wink

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: Leskova
Posted 2008-10-22 13:17:09 and read 2080 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):
I don't think they go house to house to check if you lied on your registration, or do they? I mean, how does the GEZ even control that?

Yes, they do send people from house to house these days... they don't have any right to demand entry (yet), but they do have a habit of being annoying. Strangely enough, they've never bothered me... Big grin

There's a law in preparation right now (or I think it's even already passed, though still stuck in some data protection lawsuit) that the registration authorities (Meldeämter) can pass on information about people's newly registered home addresses to the GEZ.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 26):
Quoting Leskova (Reply 18):
If you own a TV, or anything that has a TV-signal receiver (i.e. video recorder, dvd recorder), you must pay. That's the legal basis for this nonsense.

It's a fraud and a ripoff.

It's a law. And as much as I agree with your comment of it being a ripoff, it's still legal. It's been through so damn many legal challenges in the last years, and it's not fallen yet. Unfortunately.

Quoting Luckyone (Reply 28):
Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 5):
Wait...wouldn't German TV say "nein" instead of "no"?

Or "nej" if you prefer the slang

Nah... isn't that Dutch or Danish? Here, it's either "Nein", "Nee" or "Nö"... or the occasional "Iss nich"...  Wink

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: Dougloid
Posted 2008-10-22 15:04:09 and read 2069 times.



Quoting Leskova (Reply 29):

It's a law. And as much as I agree with your comment of it being a ripoff, it's still legal. It's been through so damn many legal challenges in the last years, and it's not fallen yet. Unfortunately.

How about building a foxhole radio? I mean, fuck those rotten bastards. I never heard of a ripoff like that.

I mean, I'm stunned.

One of my friends' father was in a German POW camp for American fliers. Of course a lot of the fellows knew a lot about how to build radios out of scrounged stuff. It was modular and the parts were hidden in various places so that even if the Germans found one part of it they couldn't find it all.

http://bizarrelabs.com/foxhole.htm

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-10-22 15:34:49 and read 2064 times.



Quoting Leskova (Reply 29):
Nah... isn't that Dutch or Danish? Here, it's either "Nein", "Nee" or "Nö"... or the occasional "Iss nich"...

I also like to say "Nichts da!".  Wink

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: Flexo
Posted 2008-10-23 11:29:03 and read 2011 times.



Quoting Leskova (Reply 29):
There's a law in preparation right now (or I think it's even already passed, though still stuck in some data protection lawsuit) that the registration authorities (Meldeämter) can pass on information about people's newly registered home addresses to the GEZ.

It has passed and actually the authorities are REQUIRED to pass on your information if asked to by the GEZ. I know because I called the reg authority to tell them not to pass on my information to the GEZ but they said they must if asked.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 30):
I mean, fuck those rotten bastards.

Truest statement I have read in a while on here, Dougloid!

Topic: RE: German TV Says "no" To Broadcasting Tour De France
Username: Luckyone
Posted 2008-10-23 13:04:54 and read 2000 times.



Quoting Leskova (Reply 29):
Nah... isn't that Dutch or Danish?

To be fair that's my interpretation of what I was hearing. I could just as easily have been hearing "Nee" and spelled it "Nej"! Would the fact that I was in Koeln/Bonn help much?


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