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Topic: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: BlueElephant
Posted 2008-11-17 07:22:52 and read 13219 times.

Well...The F1 2008 season is officially done, and It was a pretty good season all around.

As The final testing of the season has begun, and the previous brazil thread was over 400 replies...I thought it was a fitting time to begin this thread.

The New cars are starting to roll out for testing.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72161

Canada's re-instatement plans have failed Sad
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72152

On top of that,

The Driver Market is still pretty interesting, apparently Force India Drivers could lose their seats, and Toro Rosso, and Honda have not confirmed their driver line ups.

and something interesting....

Michael Schumacher has been given an offer to ride SBK.
http://www.autosport.com/news/grapevine.php/id/72117

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-11-17 07:26:45 and read 13216 times.

Sh... I have created one topic as well.

Moderators, can we delete mine then? http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ms/non_aviation/read.main/2006468/

Thanks and apologies for that.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2008-11-17 07:34:14 and read 13213 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 1):
Moderators, can we delete mine then?

Done, but please repost the photo from your thread.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-11-17 07:45:25 and read 13210 times.



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 2):
Done, but please repost the photo from your thread.

Thanks Scbriml, very much appreciated  Smile


Here is the picture (taken from F1-Live.com):



This is how F1s will look in 2009...

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Francoflier
Posted 2008-11-17 07:54:19 and read 13202 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 3):
This is how F1s will look in 2009...

I haven't really followed the new tech regs, but have they shortened the width of the cars again?

That rear spoilers looks ridiculous. Those tech limitations are becoming insane and useless.
How hard would it be to just limit the teams' budget so that everybody spent a moderate amount of money on their car. You'd kill 2 birds with one stone, and bring more teams into the game (instead of driving them out...)

The KERS system will be interesting though. How's that going?

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-11-17 08:13:45 and read 13196 times.



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 4):
I haven't really followed the new tech regs, but have they shortened the width of the cars again?

They have not. It's just the front wing being wider that gives this impression.

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 4):
That rear spoilers looks ridiculous

I was hoping it would look a bit better.

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 4):
How hard would it be to just limit the teams' budget so that everybody spent a moderate amount of money on their car.

I agree 100%!!

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 4):
The KERS system will be interesting though. How's that going?

I did not really follow the development of this system. How is the electrocuted pit crew, by the way?

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: BAPILOT2B
Posted 2008-11-17 11:41:35 and read 13174 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 3):
Here is the picture (taken from F1-Live.com):

Don't like the new rear wing at all, looks well out of place. And the BMW Sauber nose looks very reminiscent of the old Williams 'walrus tusk' design on the FW26 back in 2004.

http://www.f1-fansite.com/wallpaper/2004/launch/FW26-1600.jpg

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-11-17 11:49:34 and read 13172 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 3):
This is how F1s will look in 2009...

Why the hell did they greately reduce the size of that rear spoiler? Is it because of the upcoming re-introduction of the slicks? That looks just grotesque.

Plus I don't like the fact that the issue with the standard engine is still in play. If that happens, it will hurt F1.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: ScrubbsYWG
Posted 2008-11-17 15:05:38 and read 13147 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 7):
Why the hell did they greately reduce the size of that rear spoiler? Is it because of the upcoming re-introduction of the slicks? That looks just grotesque

They are trying to reduce dependence on aero. It may make cars look like crap, but hopefully it means better racing. Cars have changed over the years. this is just another evolution in the history of f1 cars.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-11-17 17:22:30 and read 13130 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 3):

Wow the F1 cars looks really weird. I really liked this past seasons cars. The nicest one was of course the F2008!!

Quoting BlueElephant (Thread starter):
Canada's re-instatement plans have failed

That is really sad. So it will only be 17 GP in the 2009 season

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Francoflier
Posted 2008-11-17 21:39:33 and read 13116 times.



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 8):
They are trying to reduce dependence on aero. It may make cars look like crap, but hopefully it means better racing.

I don't hold many hopes. They have done that kind of things for years now, with no real good results.

As a matter of fact I believe that the recent increase in competition level (at least between the 3 top teams) had nothing to do with the FIA's latest tech regulations.

A common engine might bring the teams closer, but as with everything else, the big teams will spend fortunes on developing the car and smaller teams won't be able to compete, even with the same engine. The same has happened with tires.
On top of that, they are slowly removing the manufacturer side of the sport from the competition, which is a BIG mistake in my opinion.

If they want everybody to have the same level of competitivity while keeping a decent number of teams and keeping the technology war going, all they have to do is make every team spend the same amount of money on developing and racing the car. This way they could keep making their own engines, chassis, etc (or subcontract) and all have a fighting chance while retaining their manufacturer national pride.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-11-17 22:21:41 and read 13108 times.



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 8):
They are trying to reduce dependence on aero. It may make cars look like crap, but hopefully it means better racing.

I doubt that. Aerodynamic adjustments are a big part of motorsports in general, and what FIA is doing is killing another true motorsports aspect of F1, just as they killed lots of F1 over the years and keep doing.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Waterpolodan
Posted 2008-11-18 15:36:48 and read 13057 times.



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 10):

If they want everybody to have the same level of competitivity while keeping a decent number of teams and keeping the technology war going, all they have to do is make every team spend the same amount of money on developing and racing the car. This way they could keep making their own engines, chassis, etc (or subcontract) and all have a fighting chance while retaining their manufacturer national pride.

Maybe, but spending is even harder to regulate than things like aerodynamic devices and engines. Think about it... teams like Ferrari and Mclaren already have massive infrastructure and sponsorship deals that pump tens of millions of dollars directly into the development of their cars, and for the FIA to attempt to come in between that money and the cars and say "No, you can only have as much money as the poorest team in F1" would be impossible and fly in the face of the history of the sport. It's one thing to have a salary cap on a sports franchise, quite another to limit the spending of a team like Ferrari.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: ScrubbsYWG
Posted 2008-11-18 18:06:01 and read 13045 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11):
I doubt that. Aerodynamic adjustments are a big part of motorsports in general, and what FIA is doing is killing another true motorsports aspect of F1, just as they killed lots of F1 over the years and keep doing.

this is not the end of aero aspects of f1 car design. In fact, more restrictions make it more of a challenge for designers and engineers to come up with downforce adding bits. We may be seeing the end of winglets, barge boards, etc. but teams will still be using wind tunnels, CFD, and prototyping to make their cars the best.

The only time we will see the end of aerodynamic adjustments in f1 is when the cars become spec and all the are allowed to do is adjust wings like they do in pitstops.

I think we should all take a wait and see approach. None of us are privy to any information on how teams are handling the new design constraints, but we may have a better time watching racing. Talking about how the new rules will limit this or that, and not help this, is premature. We have only seen one or two teams with 2009 spec aero. Some drivers have already said it will increase overtaking.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-11-19 18:27:39 and read 13006 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11):
Aerodynamic adjustments are a big part of motorsports in general, and what FIA is doing is killing another true motorsports aspect of F1, just as they killed lots of F1 over the years and keep doing.

As Scrubbs said, they are not killing aerodynamic adjustments.
What they are attempting to do is reduce the total amount of aero influence and the reliance on expensive, yet invisiblle to the fans, wind tunnel development. At the same time increasing the passing opportunities by reducing the effect the disturbed air has on following cars.
In some ways adjustability of the aero package is increasing because the driver will be able to adjust the front wing, which is wider and simpler than before (and inordinately ugly in versions see thus far), allowing them a simpler way to maintain car balance than previously avaialble.

The barge boards, winglets and various other bits & bobs are gone for 2009 and this will save millions in develoment.(as well as make the cars better looking)

I am a little confused about some of the combinations currently being tested though. I understand the need to obtain comparison data but some of the hybrid cars just don't seem to make sense to me.

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-11-20 23:53:30 and read 12963 times.

Was reading on the SMH website earlier on that Bernies wife is divorcing him.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-11-21 02:43:42 and read 12945 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 15):
Bernies wife is divorcing him

Now there will be a catch for someone, not unattractive and I am sure Bernie will not get out of this without writing a substantial.. make that .. a huge cheque!

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2008-11-21 03:51:20 and read 12937 times.

Report on BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7740348.stm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 16):
Now there will be a catch for someone, not unattractive

Not unattractive, and with several hundred million pounds in a bank account, becoming more attractive by the day.

Mind you, she needs to ditch the blue dress. It's really not doing anything for her. no 

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-11-21 04:10:04 and read 12935 times.

I wonder if bernie still had to stand on a box when she got on her knees....

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-11-21 21:13:58 and read 12895 times.

Breaking News at this time....
Mark Webber has been seriously injured when he was hit by a car while competing in his own Mark Webber Pure Tasmania Challenge.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/mot...dent/2008/11/22/1226770789235.html

Regards

Chris

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-11-22 03:53:35 and read 12883 times.

Looks as if it's a broken leg for MW. That will seriously restrict his testing over the winter.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-11-22 04:03:11 and read 12878 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 20):
That will seriously restrict his testing over the winter

While that is significant, it will likely have a greater effect on his fitness program.

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-11-22 04:10:59 and read 12875 times.

I was a bit worried when I read the French news as they were more or less saying that he was seriously injured. But if it's "only" a broken leg, then it's better than what I thought.

Looks like it's more dangerous to go cycling than performing two flips at 330 km/h in Le Mans!!

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-11-22 06:59:38 and read 12861 times.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 19):
Breaking News at this time....
Mark Webber has been seriously injured when he was hit by a car while competing in his own Mark Webber Pure Tasmania Challenge.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/mot...dent/2008/11/22/1226770789235.html

Regards

Chris

That is really bad. Hope he will recover fast and be back in the car again.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-11-22 15:07:39 and read 12825 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 22):
Looks like it's more dangerous to go cycling than performing two flips at 330 km/h in Le Mans!!

Obviously his bike wasn't built by Mercedes.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-11-22 15:16:40 and read 12819 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 22):
I was a bit worried when I read the French news as they were more or less saying that he was seriously injured. But if it's "only" a broken leg, then it's better than what I thought.

The German news said that he was injured seriously, but emphasised at the same time that the injuries weren't life threatening.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-11-22 16:41:44 and read 12858 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 25):
The German news said that he was injured seriously, but emphasised at the same time that the injuries weren't life threatening.

The news here in Sydney said that as well, but then they are all running the same AAP story

A cutting barb for the Aussie media....

Quote:
Webber's long-time partner and manager, Ann Neal, learned of the accident while in Europe.

When contacted she said: "The Australian media is never interested in Mark when he races and then when there is an accident you're all on the phone.

"That's typical of Australian media and I actually have no further comment."

from AAP & SMH,
http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/mot...mash/2008/11/22/1226770799927.html


Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2008-11-23 07:21:13 and read 12837 times.

Perhaps David Coulthard will make a comeback?
He´s the testdriver for Red Bull right now.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-11-23 08:19:49 and read 12827 times.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 27):
Perhaps David Coulthard will make a comeback?

He will miss the winter tests but will be back for the start of the season.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: BlueElephant
Posted 2008-11-23 08:23:45 and read 12824 times.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 27):
Perhaps David Coulthard will make a comeback?
He´s the testdriver for Red Bull right now.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72225
Red Bull has confirmed that Mark Webber should be fit for Melbourne.

However if he's not...I don't think they'd put DC back in the cabin...if I recall correctly he's been hired for broadcasting with BBC?

I bet they'd give the Driver that doesn't get a job at Torro Rosso, something temporary.

Hopefully that will be Sebastian Buemi...

with Sebastian Bourdais and Takuma Sato racing for Torro Rosso.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-11-23 08:35:55 and read 12824 times.



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 29):
I bet they'd give the Driver that doesn't get a job at Torro Rosso, something temporary.

That's highly possible.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 29):
Hopefully that will be Sebastian Buemi...

Even if Mark is not ready for the start of the season, I don't think he will miss the whole season, so Buemi could indeed do the first couple of races. It would be good training for him.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 29):
with Sebastian Bourdais and Takuma Sato racing for Torro Rosso.

Hopefully, yes. But nothing is sure yet for Bourdais  crying 

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2008-11-23 08:38:18 and read 12824 times.

Hmm, I think DC is still the best option if Webber can´t drive? Why kick out S.Buemi as testdriver if he is better than DC?
I think BBC surely will allow him to compete?
Time will tell...

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2008-11-25 04:41:35 and read 12754 times.

Ladues & gents, sorry if this has been poted before but at a first glance I didn't see it.

Is it true that Bernie wants to take away the current point structure for the first three of each race and give them olympic-style medals? And at the end of the championship the winner would be the one with the most gold medals???

Sorry, the article is in Spanish, but that's what it's basically saying, as well as that if this medal system would have been in place in the past, there would have been 12 different wdc's, including this seasons' LH title.
http://www.as.com/motor/articulo/for...tes/dasmot/20081125dasdaimot_1/Tes

if this is true, I think Bernie hit an all time high in stupid rule changes  Sad

rgds and again sorry if this was mentioned before but I have to run and didn't have time to read the thread in detail  Smile

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-11-25 05:32:11 and read 12743 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 32):
Is it true that Bernie wants to take away the current point structure for the first three of each race and give them olympic-style medals? And at the end of the championship the winner would be the one with the most gold medals???

I did not hear this another-great-idea-from-uncle-Bernie, but if it's true, then I will be totally convinced that he has lost his mind.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-11-25 12:36:56 and read 12712 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 33):
I did not hear this another-great-idea-from-uncle-Bernie, but if it's true, then I will be totally convinced that he has lost his mind.

I've heard about it, andI also believe that Bernie has once again lost his mind.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: ScrubbsYWG
Posted 2008-11-25 13:37:55 and read 12709 times.

the 50% stake of STR that Berger owned has been bought back by Red bull. Looks like they are trying to make it easier to sell the team.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-11-25 13:43:52 and read 12706 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 34):
I've heard about it, andI also believe that Bernie has once again lost his mind.

I had heard about it but do not believe it was a serious proposal.
Considering the current points system was designed to maintain interest in the championship up until the end of the season even Bernie is not silly enough to introduce something that could have a "superstar" take the WDC home by mid season... or is he?

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2008-11-26 07:45:00 and read 12661 times.

Here's mad Bernie explaining how the lack of overtaking has nothing to do with cars or circuits, but the fact that drivers don't get "gold medals" for winning races.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7749751.stm

Here's what Eddie Jordan thinks of it!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/7749958.stm

I would generally support a scoring system which most times resulted in the driver winning the most races being crowned WDC. However, I strongly believe it should be on the simple basis of awarding significantly more points for a race win.

I also believe awarding points down to 8th place has had a positive affect on racing. Thus, my suggestion for points scoring would be 15, 10, 7, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Interestingly, the ratio of points for 1st - 3rd is very close to the old 9, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1 system.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-11-26 07:52:06 and read 12661 times.



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 37):
Here's mad Bernie explaining how the lack of overtaking has nothing to do with cars or circuits, but the fact that drivers don't get "gold medals" for winning races.

I cannot imagine that such an important man in F1, that deals with billions of dollars, can come up with a stupid theory like that. I am hesitating between laughing or crying...

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 37):
However, I strongly believe it should be on the simple basis of awarding significantly more points for a race win.

I agree.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 37):
I also believe awarding points down to 8th place has had a positive affect on racing. Thus, my suggestion for points scoring would be 15, 10, 7, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Interestingly, the ratio of points for 1st - 3rd is very close to the old 9, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1 system.

That could be interesting indeed. Pole position and best race lap should also be rewarded with an extra point.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-11-26 10:24:19 and read 12640 times.



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 37):
Here's what Eddie Jordan thinks of it!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...8.stm

Suffice to say, I fully agree with Eddie Jordan.

Fact is that for a long time, many regulations, as well as F1's demand to rebuild certain circuits to their liking, that F1 has become this boring strategic extravaganza that it is today. Medals have absolutely nothing to do. We need to go back to the basics to make F1 exiting again, and part of that can be the re-introduction of the V10 engine, as well as banning fuel stops and restrict pit stops for things such as tyre changes or changing the damaged front or rear section.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2008-11-26 11:50:25 and read 12636 times.

It's official then, Bernie lost his mind!

Besides, a medal system would mean that ptentially the wdc could be awarded with several races to go, right? Say, LH wins 7 out of the first 12 races, and those remaining three are split between Kimi, Massa and Alonso ... that's it, LH can sit down and have a smoke since it would be practically over.

I can understand Ferrari or Mclaren accepting something like this because it would virtually destroy the any competition, but it is BS no matter what. I really hope this does not go through.
Oh, and when he says that it's not the circuits why there are no overtakes .... has he ever been to Monaco?  Wink

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-11-26 11:58:50 and read 12626 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 40):
Oh, and when he says that it's not the circuits why there are no overtakes .... has he ever been to Monaco?

He,he that is true.

I highly doubt that this medals thing will ever happpen. It would just quell the sport. Amazing that he can come up with something like this. Wonder where he gets everything from??

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 38):
Pole position and best race lap should also be rewarded with an extra point.

Agree. That would be something to have. Would make it a bit more interesting, especially the qualifying then.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2008-11-26 14:19:26 and read 12611 times.

I tried to get into F1 this year but couldn't it's still as boring as hell, F1 hasn't been worth watching since the halcyon days of Prost, Senna, Mansell, PK and co in the 80's and early 90's. What I did enjoy watching this year was the IRL, I know people bag it big time but with more road courses and overtaking, I mean real wheel to wheel racing plus a good title race I was hooked for the entire season, I'll try catch as many races as possible next year whereas I probably won't bother with F1.

Scott Dixon should be given an F1 drive, he's probably a lot better than many of the drivers currently in F1. Plus it might get the US market interested if the (even thought he's a Kiwi) IRL champ performed well in F1.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-11-26 15:02:02 and read 12599 times.

There are a couple of catches to Bernie's medal theory.
I think it would have only changed the result in one out of the last 10 years, yes 2008.(imagine if Massa's Spa win gained him the championship)
What it would have done is decided the championship by August or July in some cases.

The other catch is the proposal retains the current points system for the constructors championship so the teams are still going to have the same pressures as before so little if anything will change. How long will some hotshot retain his drive if he keeps throwing away points positions in futile attempts at "medals"?

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Boeing74741R
Posted 2008-11-26 16:26:38 and read 12591 times.

I can't believe that Bernie is that daft to come up with such a proposal!

I don't know. First they do a radical revamp of the cars which, in my opinion, are pig ugly and resemble something of a cartoon impersonation of F1 cars, now they want to make the biggest change in the points scoring system in years.

I really was getting back into F1 this year. If they go ahead with this I'm just not going to bother any more. Here's hoping Father Christmas grants every F1 fans wish and that the FIA blocks this proposal - it would make Max Moseley more creditable!

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 42):
What I did enjoy watching this year was the IRL, I know people bag it big time but with more road courses and overtaking, I mean real wheel to wheel racing plus a good title race I was hooked for the entire season, I'll try catch as many races as possible next year whereas I probably won't bother with F1.

You know what, I agree. All the races of IRL I've been able to watch here in the UK have been entertaining and all in the knowledge that it is well and truly man and machine, and none of the pit-stop strategy, technical junk that's taken over F1. Where IRL thrives in is the fact that races are unpredictable and are well and truly not over until the chequered flag is waived, and the same applies to their drivers championship.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-11-26 16:27:09 and read 12590 times.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 43):
What it would have done is decided the championship by August or July in some cases.

Which is not what Bernie wants. He always says that the ideal situation for Formula One is that the championship title is decided at the last corner of the last race of the season... which is exactly what happened this year!

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-11-26 18:10:04 and read 12582 times.

Toyota will also launch its car in January, making it the 4th team: http://www.f1.com/news/headlines/2008/11/8740.html

Anyone know when Ferrari will launch the F2009??

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2008-11-26 21:19:02 and read 12572 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 45):
Which is not what Bernie wants. He always says that the ideal situation for Formula One is that the championship title is decided at the last corner of the last race of the season... which is exactly what happened this year!

Exactly! Despite (or thanxs to) the controversy, of who is a good driver and who has the best car, or any other of the discussions we had this season, the fact remains that the last two seasons have been decided on the last lap of the last race (last season if any of the first 5 would have not finished Alonso would have been champion if I'm not mistaken), making these last seasons extremely entertaining.
And I still don't understand how Bernie wants to risk to have champioships decided by mid-season.... who would watch the raes after that?
Are we sure this was not some April fools' day - style joke?

Quoting B747forever (Reply 46):
Anyone know when Ferrari will launch the F2009??

Save the best for last  Wink

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2008-11-27 02:10:03 and read 12552 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 40):
Besides, a medal system would mean that ptentially the wdc could be awarded with several races to go, right?

Which is actually no different to the points system, is it? If one driver/car combination is dominant, the WDC is likely all over several races before the end of the season.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-11-27 02:47:18 and read 12549 times.



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 48):
Which is actually no different to the points system

It can be quite different to the points system.
Under Bernie's plan driver A could win 6 races and DNF the other 12, driver B might win 5 be 2nd 3-4 times and 3rd a few more. Driver A is the champion, is he really a more deserving champion?

Under the points system they must be much more dominant to tie up the championship early.

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-11-27 03:21:32 and read 12543 times.

if Bernies system had been in place during 2008, Massa would have been WDC not Hamilton as Massa had more wins. The medals system rewards pot luck rather than hard fought consistency.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2008-11-27 04:43:10 and read 12545 times.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 49):
It can be quite different to the points system.

My point was quite simply that with either system it's perfectly feasible for the WDC to be decided several races before the end of the season.

People should not forget that the last two seasons have spoiled us in terms of "last-minute champions". Of course, if the FIA and stewards had not gotten involved, things would have been wrapped up sooner!  duck 

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 49):
Under Bernie's plan driver A could win 6 races and DNF the other 12, driver B might win 5 be 2nd 3-4 times and 3rd a few more. Driver A is the champion, is he really a more deserving champion?

Not IMHO, no.

My reasoning is fairly simplistic on this topic. IN GENERAL, the driver winning the most races SHOULD (most seasons) end up being the WDC. However, in order to prevent "freak" results, the point-scoring system should simply reward race winners more than it currently does. However, not to the extent that the driver winning the most races is guaranteed to win the WDC - which is effectively what Bernie is proposing.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2008-11-27 04:45:42 and read 12544 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 50):
if Bernies system had been in place during 2008, Massa would have been WDC not Hamilton as Massa had more wins. The medals system rewards pot luck rather than hard fought consistency.

Indeed. Massa's one extra race victory would have been the one he was gifted by the race stewards at Spa!  banghead 

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2008-11-27 06:26:01 and read 12537 times.



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 48):
Which is actually no different to the points system, is it? If one driver/car combination is dominant, the WDC is likely all over several races before the end of the season.

Not really. Let's assume LH has the best combination for 2009 and Massa is just behind. And by mid season LH won 7 races and Massa came 2nd in all of them. The season would be over, yet by points they would have a few points difference that one DNF by LH could change the whole thing. In the MS days, the season would have been even less competitive.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-11-27 09:57:43 and read 12525 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 47):
Save the best for last

Hehe, so true.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 51):
My reasoning is fairly simplistic on this topic. IN GENERAL, the driver winning the most races SHOULD (most seasons) end up being the WDC.

Well I think that the driver that takes the most points is the one that should win the WDC. I think that as it is today is good. Maybe a point or two extra for the race winner, so drivers will fight for first place. Otherwise quite good

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2008-11-27 11:59:53 and read 12516 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 54):
Well I think that the driver that takes the most points is the one that should win the WDC.

Somewhat stating the obvious.  smile 

I'm not actually disagreeing with you, and I thought I'd made my position clear - IN GENERAL, most seasons the driver winning the most races SHOULD end up being champion.

I surprise myself by agreeing with Bernie on this - the current point system devalues a race win. Winning a GP should be worth more than 2 extra points over 2nd place. IHMO, a win is worth 50% more points than 2nd place.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2008-11-27 12:23:44 and read 12512 times.



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 55):
I surprise myself by agreeing with Bernie on this - the current point system devalues a race win. Winning a GP should be worth more than 2 extra points over 2nd place. IHMO, a win is worth 50% more points than 2nd place.

I agree the winner should have more points. at least 5 over 2nd place, and also the top three should have a greater difference compared to 4th place. Winners should have more, but the podium should also have more difference. In any case, I don't like the medal system  Smile

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-11-27 12:26:11 and read 12509 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 56):
also the top three should have a greater difference compared to 4th place. Winners should have more, but the podium should also have more difference.

True there is just one point between 3rd and 4th. It should be at least 2.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: TIMC
Posted 2008-11-27 13:23:10 and read 12504 times.



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 42):
Scott Dixon should be given an F1 drive, he's probably a lot better than many of the drivers currently in F1. Plus it might get the US market interested if the (even thought he's a Kiwi) IRL champ performed well in F1.

Always makes me laugh when people say that. Anyone remember Christiano di Matta? He claimed he was better than most of the drivers in F1 at the time, came over to F1 and in two seasons never made an impact.

Then we have Bourdais - how many times has he been champion in the American series? Comes to F1 and he was comprehensively outclassed by a 21 year old who came through the European single seater series.

I'm sorry, but American single seat racing doesn't produce drivers anywhere near the same quality as European racing does.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-11-27 13:39:59 and read 12507 times.



Quoting TIMC (Reply 58):
came over to F1 and in two seasons never made an impact

And there are others.. Zanardi, Andretti(Michael) even Montoya.

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-11-27 14:01:18 and read 12502 times.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 59):
And there are others.. Zanardi, Andretti(Michael) even Montoya.

Out of all those, I say Montoya was the worst. A polarising figure who has nothing but hate for most of F1.

Recently I saw in a TV show that he does not want to have anything to do with F1 anymore, meaning that even if someone does offer him the chance for a comeback, he'll still stay in NASCAR.

I say let Montoya stay in NASCAR. Formula 1 doesn't need assholes like him, who show nothing but contempt for everything, including their own teammates.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2008-11-27 14:20:20 and read 12494 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 60):
I say let Montoya stay in NASCAR. Formula 1 doesn't need assholes like him, who show nothing but contempt for everything, including their own teammates.

... and F1 already has Alonso for that ... Wink

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2008-11-27 14:25:35 and read 12492 times.



Quoting TIMC (Reply 58):
I'm sorry, but American single seat racing doesn't produce drivers anywhere near the same quality as European racing does.

True but Dixon is a Kiwi and wouldn't have the attitude that the Amewrican drivers come over with.

Also don't forget Jacques Villeneuve was a champion first in CART then won the F1 Championship in 97.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-11-27 14:59:25 and read 12491 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 61):
... and F1 already has Alonso for that ...

Alonso isn't nearly as bad as Juan Pablo Montoya was. At least Alonso has success that backs him up, unlike that wannabe driver JPM.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2008-11-27 17:51:11 and read 12475 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 63):
Alonso isn't nearly as bad as Juan Pablo Montoya was. At least Alonso has success that backs him up, unlike that wannabe driver JPM.

That's true, but what I know for sure is that I could not handle both of them together. I hope JPM never comes back ... but if he ever has to, I'd love to see him in the same team as Alonso ... it will be an ego war all season!

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-11-27 22:38:54 and read 12468 times.

Bah! Formula One needs Juan Pablo Montoya. Purely for his personality. Otherwise we're stuck with these boring monotone robots ruled by the PR department. Bring on Formula Juan.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Jush
Posted 2008-11-28 02:15:14 and read 12450 times.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11):
I doubt that. Aerodynamic adjustments are a big part of motorsports in general, and what FIA is doing is killing another true motorsports aspect of F1, just as they killed lots of F1 over the years and keep doing.

Absolutely wrong. By forbidding the aerodynamic helps the teams invented over the years and reintroducing only a proper front wing and rear spoiler they will bring back racing altogether.

You will have slipstream overtakes again. You will see faster corner drive throughs because of the slicks. And yes you have to get used to the new looks but the races will be much better.

I fully agree with the new rules as the sissy rules of the 90s are banned more and more.
The tyres were a pain in the ass and looked just ridiculous. Thank god we are back to slicks.

And in my opinion the cars looked shit with all these aerodynamic tweaks they had.
Hopefully they will ban the "hubcaps" on the rims as well, as they look like ass to me.

Regds
jush

[Edited 2008-11-28 02:25:34]

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Jush
Posted 2008-11-28 02:24:40 and read 12446 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 34):

I've heard about it, andI also believe that Bernie has once again lost his mind.

Wrong!

Making this ridiculous point structure we have now is a result with which the FIA tried to help the competitors of Michael Schumacher. By giving more points for the second place they tried to give other people chances to win.

Giving Olympic style medals for race positions is great and will bring winning a grand prix back to another level. Hopefully we won't see this Hamilton shit again as he was deliberately not trying to win this last year in favour of getting a second place.

What has become of racing when you are calculating in the cockpit instead of trying to win.
Apparently you all in this thread have gotten used to the sissy Formula One and I can't believe that you like even like it.

I would say reintroduce the old point structure with only 6 points for the second place or put the medal thing into place.

Bernie is a boner but some of his new ideas are good and this is one of them.

Regds
jush

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2008-11-28 07:34:34 and read 12414 times.



Quoting Jush (Reply 67):
Giving Olympic style medals for race positions is great and will bring winning a grand prix back to another level. Hopefully we won't see this Hamilton shit again as he was deliberately not trying to win this last year in favour of getting a second place.

Jush, I agree with you that LH played safe and not to win the last few races, but the medal system could have him (or anyone else that has won 6 or 7 races not even needing to finish all together.

Quoting Jush (Reply 67):
I would say reintroduce the old point structure with only 6 points for the second place or put the medal thing into place

Everyone is agreeing that the point structure should be revised, but not taken away. Keep a point structure with more points for the winner, and also with more pints for the podium compared to the rest.

Quoting Jush (Reply 67):
Apparently you all in this thread have gotten used to the sissy Formula One and I can't believe that you like even like it.

But you have to admit that because of the point structure or because the drivers' / cars have more or less the same levels, the last two sesons were decided in the last lap of the last race, so the excitment part of F1 was there, and IMHO with the medal system you have a high chance of losing this in favour of having a season decided with 3 or 4 (or even more) races left.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-11-28 09:17:02 and read 12408 times.



Quoting Jush (Reply 67):
put the medal thing into place.

Bernie is a boner but some of his new ideas are good and this is one of them.

What are you kidding?? So you want to see the F1 season be won by a driver in maybe 8races?? That would be soooo boring

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-11-28 10:51:44 and read 12406 times.



Quoting Jush (Reply 67):
Bernie is a boner but some of his new ideas are good and this is one of them.

I disagree with that. If a driver wins 8 races and DNFs 8 times, he would probably be world champion without completing half of the season, which would be quite unfair for all the others who battled during 16 races.

Win is important, but the overall performance should also be taken into account. Point system has worked for the last 60 years in Formula one and in other disciplines, why would you change something that is working?

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-11-28 12:34:18 and read 12396 times.



Quoting Jush (Reply 67):
Bernie is a boner but some of his new ideas are good and this is one of them.

I'm sorry, but I beg to differ. As far as the medal system is concerned, I still stand by what I said, Bernard Charles Ecclestone has lost his mind, just as his mate Max Mosley did when he played Nazi with a group of expensive whores.

The medal system will only cause F1 to become more and more strategic than it already is. Just think about it. Re-introducing the old system of a four point difference between first and second is a more wise idea. Given the system of today, you could as well make it a 12-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 system. Otherwise, if it ain't broken, DON'T FIX IT!

Another proof of Bernie losing his mind is his idea of introducing the Einheitsmotor or standard engine for all teams. This isn't the A1 Series or Indycar, this is Formula 1, the pinnacle of automobile development. Bernie and Max have damaged the series too much with their restrictions on engines. I only agree on the rules of durability, which means that an engine has to last 2 races, next season it's 3 races in which the engine has to last, crashes being exempt from that rule though.

This is where my plan, which is based on rules from F1 seasons past, is better. Re-introduce V10 engines or even V12 engines, ban fuel stops and thus force teams to make more fuel efficient engines, where a whole tank lasts the entire race, and finally make more restrictions on tyre changes, where you can only change the compound before the race and only change tyres because of either wear and tear, or because of weather, but NOT change compounds during the actual race.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: BlueElephant
Posted 2008-12-04 08:31:35 and read 12197 times.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72309

Sato's getting another Test...looks like Buemi isn't...

If what was said earlier is true then It is likely that Buemi and Sato will be the Torro Rosso drivers although it has been stated that Barichello might get a seat too.

I would still like to see Sato and Bourdais at Torro Rosso...I think that would be great.


Anyone know whats going on at Honda?...Looks like Button is retaining his seat but what about the second?...I think it was between DeGrassi and Senna?

I think that makes up the remaining Driver spots?

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2008-12-04 13:15:23 and read 12190 times.

The BBC is reporting that Honda is about to announce their withdrawal from F1. If a buyer for the team cannot be found by the end of March, the team will shut down.

If one of the sport's giants, with a proud history, is pulling out, is this the begining of the end of F1 as we know it?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7766092.stm

Quote:
Honda will quit Formula One on Friday, BBC Sport understands.

The Japanese car manufacturer are set to announce that they are selling their team, with a view to closing it down by the end of March if no buyer is found.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: BlueElephant
Posted 2008-12-04 13:16:11 and read 12189 times.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72319

HONDA SET TO QUIT F1!!!!!

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: BAPILOT2B
Posted 2008-12-04 13:24:06 and read 12185 times.

IF Honda pull out I can see Toyota doing the same within a week.

It will be a very sad day when/if Honda pull out but it has happened in the past....

The grid will be very thin come the first round of the 2009 season, maybe all this crap about consumer cars can be dumped in the FIA's rubbish bin along with Moseley and Ecclestone.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-12-04 16:42:53 and read 12186 times.



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 73):
is this the begining of the end of F1 as we know it?

Perhaps as we have known it recently.. but the end?

I doubt it.

Quoting BAPILOT2B (Reply 75):
maybe all this crap about consumer cars can be dumped

Absolutely, The current crisis in F1 can be squarely layed at the feet of Messrs. Ecclestone and Mosely, not the Global economic crisis or credit crunch.
Over a period of many years they have, with others, orchestrated(conspired) the demise of the real F1 constructors, the "garagista" so hated by Enzo Ferrari.
It is time this trend was reversed and the likes of Red Bull, McLaren, Williams(perhaps the last of the garagista) able to sell customer cars.
It might even be time to rewrite the rules regarding who can build F1 cars, perhaps time we had Lola, Dallara and others building cars but not actually racing them.
One of the downsides in the new found power of FOTA is that they are about protecting their status quo and will probably not like this suggestion but I think it is time to try something radically new(or old!).

Cheers

Chris

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-12-04 17:14:29 and read 12174 times.

If Honda really will quite to race in F1, we need a new team. Without Honda we will be down to only 18 cars!

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-12-04 18:40:21 and read 12166 times.



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 73):
The BBC is reporting that Honda is about to announce their withdrawal from F1.

So Honda wants to quit F1. Hell, they didn't even give Ross Brawn enough time to build them a half-way decent car, so they can progressively climb as far as their performance is concerned.

Oh well, Max and Bernie can thank themselves for this, after all they've done to hurt what used to be the pinnacle of all racing.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 73):
If one of the sport's giants, with a proud history, is pulling out, is this the begining of the end of F1 as we know it?

Probably. Honda is, along with Mercedes-Benz and Ferrari one of the big players as far as history is concerned. If they pull out and don't even remain as engine supplier (like during the Renault pullout in the 90's), then this could hurt F1 a lot.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: ScrubbsYWG
Posted 2008-12-04 22:16:40 and read 12150 times.

honda has announced the immediate withdrawal from f1.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72322

Quote:
Honda have announced their immediate withdrawal from Formula One, the Japanese manufacturer's president and CEO Takeo Fukui confirmed on Friday morning.

wow. i am surprised. this will shake things up. who buys the team?

Honda have a long history in f1, so this is a sad day.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-12-05 01:33:18 and read 12141 times.

Mosely proposes standard Cosworth built engine ....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72324

Not sure about this but I think it has some merit, to me(at first glance) it looks like a better plan than the 1.8L turbo proposal that FOTA floated.

It does seem to throw a crumb to the manufacturers that had concerns about standard engines.
It will be an interesting story to follow over the coming weeks.

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2008-12-05 01:49:44 and read 12133 times.



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 79):
honda has announced the immediate withdrawal from f1.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report...72322

I will miss them greatly during the next season at the next Monaco GP.

The Aguris are gone, now Honda is also leaving F1.
This is bad news.

R.I.P. Honda F1 team. You have always done great work.

All the latest F1 news make me hate the Max and Bernie duet a little more each day.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: ScrubbsYWG
Posted 2008-12-05 01:52:29 and read 12131 times.

i

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 81):
All the latest F1 news make me hate the Max and Bernie duet a little more each day.

to be honest, and i have said this before, i am almost more fearful of the future of f1 if max and/or bernie are gone. F1 is dynamic, and it has changed for the good and bad throughout its history. If someone else was running f1, what would it be like? Better? worse? It is the evil you know vs. the evil you don't.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Cornish
Posted 2008-12-05 02:28:16 and read 12120 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 77):
If Honda really will quite to race in F1, we need a new team. Without Honda we will be down to only 18 cars!

Make that 16 when Toyota follow Honda in a pull out....

Nobody is going to start up a new team for the next couple of years unless the customer car deal is reversed or massive cost cuts are implemented and implemented fast rather than being discussed endlessly.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2008-12-05 03:02:39 and read 12106 times.

I fear more teams are going to leave...  confused 

MyEarthDream You will be greatly missed...
https://app.e2ma.net/app/view:Join/signupId:39367

Your 2007 blue car was simply awesome, a true beauty.  crying 

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-12-05 03:37:10 and read 12095 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 78):
Oh well, Max and Bernie can thank themselves for this, after all they've done to hurt what used to be the pinnacle of all racing.

Exactly!

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 81):
You have always done great work.

Not really! Apart from 2006, which was their best year, they never achieved anything decent in 2007 and 2008, finishing 9th in 2008 with 14 points and finishing 8th in 2007 with only 6 points. For a manufacturer like that, second biggest in Japan behind Toyota, they were more ridiculous than anything else.

I'm just sad for Brawn as he did not have the time to achieve something in this team. I'm sure he could have put Honda back on the first part of the ranking table.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 81):
All the latest F1 news make me hate the Max and Bernie duet a little more each day.

Me too, but it's not a new feeling for me Big grin

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2008-12-05 03:45:54 and read 12092 times.

With the Honda pullout, who know how many other companies may consider withdrawing from F1 and other areas of auto racing. I think F1 will have to make radical changes to stay alive especially to reduce the costs and excessive technology. The cars are ugly, there is no real competition as maybe 3 companies really in competition. That F1 has given up on the North American markets for the Middle East and South Asia is a disturbing trend. The deep pockets of tobacco are now gone for good reasons and there has been no compatable replacement major sponsors.

Auto racing has become very distant from production cars and the need to product more fuel efficient or non-oil based fuel using vehicles. We need family sized cars that get 35+ MPG not ones that can go 0-60 mph in 8 seconds or less or can go over 100 mph. That is not what racing cars are about. All car makers in the US and EU are facing 20% or more declines in sales due to employment insecurity, tighter or no credit available and more questioning the need for new cars. That could be a permenant trend as fewer will be able to afford new cars or more profitable larger cars.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-12-05 04:09:56 and read 12085 times.



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 86):
With the Honda pullout, who know how many other companies may consider withdrawing from F1 and other areas of auto racing.

I believe the Honda announcement is just the beginning, many point to Toyota following suit but what of BMW, Mercedes, Renault etc... even Ferrari.
If Mercedes decide times are tough.. what of McLaren?
Will they allow McLaren to continue, will they write off their ownership or will they insist the team quit altogether. Similar issues at BMW/Sauber.
Were these questions asked before the teams made their pacts with the devil?

Racing survived many economic downturns during the 20th century, perhaps because it wasn't beholden to big business. Now may be the time to cut those ties again.

Big business will get involved when it suits and pull out .. as we have seen today.. when it suits.
The small teams that made F1 what it was in the '60s-'70s were in it for the passion and only left when they ran out of support or were driven out by the Max/Bernie meglomania.

Perhaps there is a new generation of Colin Chapman, Guy Ligier, Alexander Hesketh, Eddie Jordan, Ken Tyrell, Giancarlo Minardi, Robin Herd/(dare I say it?.. Max Mosely) clones ready to take up the challenge.

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Boeing74741R
Posted 2008-12-05 04:29:16 and read 12069 times.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 80):
Mosely proposes standard Cosworth built engine ....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72324

Well, at least it's not being forced upon teams like it was originally being made out to be.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 85):
Not really! Apart from 2006, which was their best year, they never achieved anything decent in 2007 and 2008, finishing 9th in 2008 with 14 points and finishing 8th in 2007 with only 6 points. For a manufacturer like that, second biggest in Japan behind Toyota, they were more ridiculous than anything else.

Shame to hear about Honda pulling out. I wonder if Jenson Button is now starting to regret buying out his Williams contract a few years ago so he can stick with Honda.  Wink

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Gman94
Posted 2008-12-05 04:55:02 and read 12068 times.

I feel most sorry for the Ross Braun and the guys who took the decision to write off this season beofre it had started in favour of concentrating everything on making and developing the 2009 car. I was looking forward to see what they had come up with but I guess it's not to be unless someone steps in to takeover. Sad day, I agree with others that this is more to do with the Bernie and Moseley's meddling rather then the credit crunch.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Cornish
Posted 2008-12-05 06:41:59 and read 12053 times.



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 89):
Sad day, I agree with others that this is more to do with the Bernie and Moseley's meddling rather then the credit crunch.

Really ? I may not be a fan of Bernie and Max but i won't lay this at their door.

Problem is that Honda are seeing their global sales falling dramtically. They are already halting production temporarily at some of their plants, including their UK one. They are spenidng an absolute fortune on F1 and running round at the back of the grid. No company board is going to continue approving such expenditure indefinitely in that environment. Fine if you are winning, but propping up the back of the grid.

Its been said for a long time that as the sport moved from specialist constructors to manufacturers while the rewards would be that much greater, the flip side is the risk would be that much greater. An old fashioned team like Williams, or many of the others over the years existed only for racing in F1. Manufacturers like Honda are in F1 to sell road cars. When they are not winning and they are not selling road cars then they will logically start to pull out and spend their money elsewhere. Sad but true.

And so for that reason, Toyota is likely to go, Renault may not be around long term either....

But i wouldn't blame Bernie and Max for this particular one. after all, Honda have been concentrating on their 2009 car pretty much longer than anyone, once they wrote off the 2008 season months and months ago...

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-12-05 06:46:23 and read 12053 times.



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 86):
That F1 has given up on the North American markets for the Middle East and South Asia is a disturbing trend

They are giving it up on the European market as well! Think about it: in 1998, 11 races out of 16 were in Europe (a bit less than 70%). In 2009, there will be 8 GPs out of 17 in Europe (47%)!

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-12-05 14:58:47 and read 11983 times.



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 86):
That F1 has given up on the North American markets for the Middle East and South Asia is a disturbing trend.

Maybe for you in North America. South Asian and Middle Eastern economies are amongst the booming economies in the world. Even with all the financial crisis, they're still well placed. So it's easy to see why these markets are attractive. Money and People.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 83):
Make that 16 when Toyota follow Honda in a pull out....

I don't think we will see Toyota pull out. They're a much stronger company then Honda are. Toyotas Market cap is around US$171Billion compared to US$58 billion for Honda. Toyota just need to make their team work better on less.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 78):
Honda is, along with Mercedes-Benz and Ferrari one of the big players as far as history is concerned. If they pull out and don't even remain as engine supplier (like during the Renault pullout in the 90's), then this could hurt F1 a lot.

Probably not, they've pulled out before. I'm sure they'll come back again. If anything, Hondas pull out is a wake up call for the rest of the teams to get things in order and stop blowing money.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-12-05 15:23:44 and read 11978 times.



Quoting Cornish (Reply 83):
Make that 16 when Toyota follow Honda in a pull out....

But why Toyota too?? I dont really get it.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Boeing74741R
Posted 2008-12-06 09:17:40 and read 11925 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 91):
They are giving it up on the European market as well! Think about it: in 1998, 11 races out of 16 were in Europe (a bit less than 70%). In 2009, there will be 8 GPs out of 17 in Europe (47%)!

To be honest, it was boring ten years ago when nearly 75% of races were being held in Europe as it kinda defeats the object of it being a 'world championship', nad instead more like a battle of Europe plus a few non-European races for good measure.

If I had my way there would be around 22 races a season, back to the old-style rear wing and a middle finger salute to Bernie's proposed medal system!

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-12-06 09:45:37 and read 11918 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 85):
Apart from 2006, which was their best year, they never achieved anything decent

As an own team, you're right. But as an engine supplier, they've had a very successful history. Just remember the days when McLaren got its engines from Honda, when they were highly successful with drivers such as Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost. 44 wins and a total of 699 points during that time, as well as 4 WCCs in a row speak for themselves.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 92):
I'm sure they'll come back again.

If they do, then only as an engine supplier.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2008-12-06 11:04:16 and read 11910 times.

I think the talk of unifying the engines scared them off together with the cost.
BTW any takers for Mr Button, will he replace Webber at RBR?

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: ScrubbsYWG
Posted 2008-12-06 11:23:39 and read 11903 times.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 96):

only if webber isnt back in time.

otherwise, i think he will wait to see what kind of future the former honda team has, and then possibly go to STR

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-12-06 11:36:05 and read 11903 times.



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 97):
only if webber isnt back in time.

Agreed, but that is not expected to be a problem at this point.
Certainly can't see a performance related reason to do it.

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-12-06 17:03:40 and read 11876 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 95):
As an own team, you're right. But as an engine supplier, they've had a very successful history. Just remember the days when McLaren got its engines from Honda, when they were highly successful with drivers such as Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost. 44 wins and a total of 699 points during that time, as well as 4 WCCs in a row speak for themselves.

You did not quote my whole sentence  Wink. I said "they never achieved anything decent in 2007 and 2008".

They were of course a fantastic engine supplier for McLaren back in the 80s.

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 94):
To be honest, it was boring ten years ago when nearly 75% of races were being held in Europe as it kinda defeats the object of it being a 'world championship', nad instead more like a battle of Europe plus a few non-European races for good measure.

True, but having 50% of races outside Europe is only recent in Formula One history. Should drivers like Ascari or Fangio be "European champions" then?  Wink

As long as the "historical" GPs (like France, Monaco, Great-Britain, Italy, etc.) are still in the championship, I'll be ok  Wink. By the way, France better quickly find a solution to keep its GP. Thank God, it won't happen in Disneyland (did you hear that, Bernie?!  laughing  ). That would have been the last straw...

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 94):
a middle finger salute to Bernie's proposed medal system!

I agree Big grin

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: BlueElephant
Posted 2008-12-06 21:40:09 and read 11868 times.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 96):
I think the talk of unifying the engines scared them off together with the cost.
BTW any takers for Mr Button, will he replace Webber at RBR?

There were talks of Prodrive taking over Honda....Richards wanted to get in...and Honda's willing to sell cheaply...

Would they keep Button?...I don't know...

Honestly...I'd give the drive to Bourdais or Sato over Button....

I feel that Button is passed his prime.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-12-07 04:36:24 and read 11852 times.



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 100):
I feel that Button is passed his prime.

According to The Guardian; he could do some tests for Torro Rosso.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008.../jensen-button-scuderia-toro-rosso

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-12-10 00:07:14 and read 11737 times.

Typically Max set the level required for the deal to go ahead to the number of teams that need things to be as cheap as possible to ensure their continued existence in F1.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72413

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Cornish
Posted 2008-12-10 02:19:48 and read 11729 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 93):
Quoting Cornish (Reply 83):
Make that 16 when Toyota follow Honda in a pull out....

But why Toyota too?? I dont really get it.

Whats not to get about it ? Despite being the world's biggest car manufacturer, and one of the most profitable, Toyota has been hit hard by the global downturn in car sales, particularly in its two key markets of the US and Japan. While Toyota is faring better than many rivals, it is still suffering. Right now that makes a very expensive F1 programme (they have the biggest budget of all the teams) very hard to justify when it has achieved pretty much nothing in real terms since entering F1 (despite the improvement last year). at least they could say they were beating rival Honda over the last couple of years, whch counts for something in Japan at least - but no Honda as a rival makes F1 far less attractive to Toyota right now, particularly as its not really beating anyone else.

you can throw Renault into the mix too now. If as it now seems the French govt is going to bail out French car manufacturers with large sums of money then you can expect there to be major concessions to be made. It will be hard for Renault (and Peugeot with its Le Mans & sports car programme) to be able to get away with a hugely expensive F1 programme AND be eligible for large state handouts at the same time. Certainly if I was a French tax payer I'd want to see Renault canning its F1 programme if that was indeed to be the case.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Boeing74741R
Posted 2008-12-10 09:45:18 and read 11702 times.

Toyota aren't going to pull out any soon guys.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Cornish
Posted 2008-12-10 09:51:03 and read 11695 times.



Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 104):
Toyota aren't going to pull out any soon guys.

Wow you're a real optimist. I'll be amazed if they are on the grid in 2010 (unless they have a stunning 2009 season). Most observers seem to think they will be next to disappear.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: BlueElephant
Posted 2008-12-10 09:53:00 and read 11694 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 101):
According to The Guardian; he could do some tests for Torro Rosso.

I'm kinda interested to see what happens with Honda..I think someone might just buy them out (crossing fingers)

Looks like Buemi is taking charge in Jerez he'll probably get the ride from Bourdais ( Sad )

I am now wondering...

If F1 goes with Standard Cosworth engines... What will happen with the Mercedes component of McLaren Mercedes?

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-12-10 11:07:26 and read 11688 times.



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 106):
If F1 goes with Standard Cosworth engines... What will happen with the Mercedes component of McLaren Mercedes?

The current proposal from Max does not compel teams to use the Cosworth engine, there are three scenarios-
1/ Use the Cosworth/XR engine transmission package
2/ Build own engine to the Cosworth spec
3/ Build your own spec engine but with controls on power etc

So there is still room for Mercedes,Toyota, Ferrari etc to do there own thing if they desire.

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Sudden
Posted 2008-12-11 08:16:08 and read 11631 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 65):
Bah! Formula One needs Juan Pablo Montoya. Purely for his personality

Bring back Eddie Irvine as well, and the party can start! Those were the days.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 100):
I feel that Button is passed his prime.

Indeed! Button's name will never be brought back on top now with Hamilton running the show. To me Button have been overrated since he placed his butt in the F1 car.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 107):
The current proposal from Max does not compel teams to use the Cosworth engine, there are three scenarios-
1/ Use the Cosworth/XR engine transmission package
2/ Build own engine to the Cosworth spec
3/ Build your own spec engine but with controls on power etc

Even so,
F1 is heading in the direction of A1, and A1 can even steal some of the market by increasing their cars performance. Don't forget that A1 is owned by a very wealthy man from middle east (coming back to what Bill142 wrote above about the middle east market), so if they wanted, they would for sure be able to make the A1 car more interesting then the F1.
Now some of you might say that this will not happen, but looking how things are going in F1 currently with 2 teams dropping out in 1 season, who actually knows.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-12-12 03:32:09 and read 11594 times.

Budget cap is still the best way to cut costs in F1. Do as you please as long as you don't spend over $XXXXXXX

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-12-12 06:08:44 and read 11580 times.

So the results of the WMSC meeting are...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72459

Some highlights...
2009
Engine life to be doubled. Each driver will use a maximum of eight engines for the season plus four for testing (thus 20 per team).
Limit of 18,000 rpm.
No in-season testing except during race weekend during scheduled practice.
No wind tunnel exceeding 60% scale and 50 metres/sec to be used after 1 January 2009.

2010 and beyond gets more interesting with bans on tyre warmers, refueling etc!

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: BlueElephant
Posted 2008-12-12 08:40:55 and read 11564 times.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 110):
So the results of the WMSC meeting are...

Essentially if you don't have a good car by January 1st, you're not really going to be able to make to too much better.

and no Refueling for 2010?...Does that mean there won't be any pitstops?

Thats kinda sad  Sad

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-12-12 09:43:02 and read 11565 times.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 110):
2010 and beyond gets more interesting with bans on tyre warmers, refueling etc!

Personally, I have nothing against tyre warmers, but I do agree on a refueling ban. It would make F1 less strategic than it is today.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2008-12-12 09:48:50 and read 11561 times.

I am certainly not any F1 car engineer but I think the new changes announced by the Max and Benie duet I am not going to like them at all.

Seems that they will take a good part of the excitement away from the races. Maybe even worse in 2010 and after.

I doubt the teams will really go bankrupt if they leave the competition as it is now although I may be wrong.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2008-12-12 09:54:59 and read 11560 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 112):
Personally, I have nothing against tyre warmers

Hmm, unless they're rediculously expensive, it's difficult to see how their removal will save teams very much money.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 112):
but I do agree on a refueling ban

My only objection to refuelling has always been on safety grounds and it seems hugely ironic to me that it will now be stopped as a cost cutting measure! Personally, I have no issue with the additional strategy option it gives teams.

How many drivers in 2010 will have ever raced an F1 car loaded with race-distance fuel. I think it will come as a big shock to most of them!  Wow!

However, if it results in the early laps of a race being accompanied by showers of sparks as heavy cars bottom-out on the track, then I'm all in favour!  yes 

My major concern is that one additional cost-saving measure they said they would research, is to reduce race time and distance. NO. Don't do it!  no 

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: T1210s
Posted 2008-12-12 10:08:36 and read 11559 times.

Ban on refueling about bloody time  bigthumbsup  making the cars harder to drive

Wont having cold Tyre's be dangerous through?

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2008-12-12 10:20:14 and read 11557 times.



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 114):
How many drivers in 2010 will have ever raced an F1 car loaded with race-distance fuel. I think it will come as a big shock to most of them!

Probably none. Now as a non-F1 car engineer I have a question. It seems to me that refueling or not refueling the amount of fuel in the car will be the same for the whole race?
Is this right?  Confused

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2008-12-12 10:21:46 and read 11559 times.



Quoting T1210s (Reply 115):
Ban on refueling about bloody time making the cars harder to drive

Maybe its just me, but banning refueling ... could it have the potential of making races more boring? many times a race will start and whoever is in P1 after the first lap ends up getting more and more advantage and sometimes the only thing to look forward too are the pit stops, because it is the only thing that could change a race (I'm not saying it always happens, but it has happened).

I understand that banning refueling will mean that the whole grid will have the same amount of fuel, so there will be no advantages there for anyone, but I just don't see how this can make the race more appealing. I'm imagining even less overtakes ...

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-12-12 10:35:42 and read 11556 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 117):
Maybe its just me, but banning refueling ... could it have the potential of making races more boring

Doubtful. In fact, it wouldn't be the first time when refuelling was banned and back then, races were still exiting.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-12-12 12:19:47 and read 11546 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 112):
but I do agree on a refueling ban

Me too!

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 118):
Doubtful. In fact, it wouldn't be the first time when refuelling was banned and back then, races were still exiting.

Not to mention that races were biaised (I don't know if this is the appropriate word) because of fuel stops. Win was decided in pit stops and not on the track anymore. I reckon that pilots should win a race thanks to their driving skills, and not because they have the best strategy for pit-stops. Enough of this!

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-12-12 15:09:41 and read 11525 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 117):

I agree so much with you. You took the words out of my mouth  Wink No but seriously, I would find the races more boring. Then we wont see any mistakes (like the one Hamilton did in China  Wink).

Dont ban fueling, please.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-12-12 15:23:51 and read 11526 times.



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 116):
It seems to me that refueling or not refueling the amount of fuel in the car will be the same for the whole race?

Probably not. The challenge will be to have an engine that's exceptionally fuel efficient. This will allow teams to run a smaller fuel tank - additional weight, that extra fuel has = faster lap time. Towards the end of the race, you will see faster lap times, as the weight in the car will have dropped significantly.


Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 117):

Maybe its just me, but banning refueling ... could it have the potential of making races more boring?



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 117):
I'm imagining even less overtakes ...

Especially once the engineers find ways around the new aero regs to add down force and make the air behind too turbulent for anyone to sit in. Or if the new aero regs are a complete failure.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2008-12-12 15:59:45 and read 11517 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 120):
Then we wont see any mistakes

The driver who doesn't make mistakes hasn't been born yet.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 120):
Dont ban fueling, please.

There will still be pit-stops for tyre changes. One set of tyres, especially for a heavy car, will not last race distance.

Drivers will have to display more skill over the course of a race as they drive cars from very heavy to very light, rather than the much narrower weight range today (even with a one-stop strategy).

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-12-12 16:19:34 and read 11513 times.



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 122):
One set of tyres, especially for a heavy car, will not last race distance.

Before 1994 and the introduction of refuelling, were cars stopping for tyres? My memory plays tricks on me  Sad.

With 2008's tyre compound, they would indeed not last, but what if Bridgestone makes them longer-lasting? Could that be a possibility?

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2008-12-12 20:20:35 and read 11490 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 118):
Doubtful. In fact, it wouldn't be the first time when refuelling was banned and back then, races were still exiting.

But it was a whole different game back then. Now refuling has become part of the race, and sometimes the race winner comes out of pit stops. Granted, the ideal would be to see everyone fight it out on the track, but there are two or three teams that have better cars than the rest, and the only thing that could give the rest to win a race was a strategy mistake (or a pit stop mistake, Massa style). Now once LH or Kimi for example take the lead it's over. Hopefully I'm wrong, since I'd love to see less difference in performance between the top and the bottom teams, but I really don't see this working to make F1 more entertaining.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-12-12 21:45:40 and read 11485 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 124):
and the only thing that could give the rest to win a race was a strategy mistake (or a pit stop mistake, Massa style)

Admittedly it often closed a gap(or changed positions) but it is hardly racing.

Back in the late 60's- 70's when many cars ran very similar mechanical packages and before pitstops and safety cars performed their unloved (to me any way) performance equalisation task, race after race was won by only a few seconds and there were some epic duels for the lead (and other places).

Another thing that could be done to improve the spectacle, at least for the TV viewers is for the broadcasters to throw those extreme zoom lenses on to the scrap heap and move the cameras back down closer to the track. Just find some video of GP racing in the 60's & '70's to see the remarkable sensation of speed and excitement that is lacking in modern race broadcasting.

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2008-12-13 02:57:31 and read 11493 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 123):
Before 1994 and the introduction of refuelling, were cars stopping for tyres? My memory plays tricks on me

Yes, they certainly did. A quick, tyre change-only pit-stop was around 5 seconds.

Here's an "average" pit-stop from 1993:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lMPG7xZL_Mc

However, in 1973 things were, shall we say, a little more "relaxed".  Wow!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JLvRp5g0Ybc

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-12-13 03:41:14 and read 11488 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 124):
I really don't see this working to make F1 more entertaining.

There are too much electronics in Formula One and that is the main problem to me. It has leveled the performances of the drivers. There are no more room for errors. Put less electronics in the car, let the driver drive a "mechanical" F1 and not an "electronic" one, and we'll see more entertaining races. Like it was in the 80s and before.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 126):
Here's an "average" pit-stop from 1993:

Nice  Smile

I also like F1 cars when they were 2 meters wide. Since 1998, they are 1.80 meters wide, and they look squeezed...

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 126):
However, in 1973 things were, shall we say, a little more "relaxed".

Well, that was a different time!  Wink



Oh, and I found out that tyre changes were totally prohibited during races in 2005, except if the tyre had a puncture or if there was a change of weather. They were again authorised the following year.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2008-12-13 06:14:45 and read 11476 times.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 125):
Back in the late 60's- 70's when many cars ran very similar mechanical packages and before pitstops

I agree, and that is exactly why I don't think it will work today, because there is too much difference between cars. Back then, a good driver would be able to fight for the top positions based on his skills, today its more about the car. Would LH or Massa been contenders for the WDC on a Renault this season?Or Look at Alonso. He's undoubtadly one of the most talented drivers of the current grid, yet the car for most part of the season was worse than a taxi. Back then, the car was less important and the talent played a much bigger role.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 127):
Put less electronics in the car, let the driver drive a "mechanical" F1 and not an "electronic" one, and we'll see more entertaining races. Like it was in the 80s and before.

agreed

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Waterpolodan
Posted 2008-12-13 07:22:58 and read 11473 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 123):
Before 1994 and the introduction of refuelling, were cars stopping for tyres? My memory plays tricks on me Sad.

Refueling wasn't actually introduced in 1994, Brabham was the first team to realize that a car with a light fuel load could do fast enough lap times to make up the time lost in a pit stop and then some, and this was back in the early 1980s, maybe 1981. At some point in '91 or '92 I think, the refueling was banned because of fire concerns, but the ban only lasted for a few years.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 127):

Oh, and I found out that tyre changes were totally prohibited during races in 2005, except if the tyre had a puncture or if there was a change of weather. They were again authorised the following year.

That's true, remember that race in '05 when Kimi was leading for Mclaren at the 'ring, I think, and he had a flatspotted tire that was producing a dangerous vibration but he was forced to attempt to go the distance with it because of the penalty he'd receive if he stopped to change it? The vibration ended up destroying his front suspension and he crashed out of the lead with a couple laps left, another nail in the coffin of his 2005 championship hopes.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-12-13 12:59:20 and read 11453 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 128):
because there is too much difference between cars.

There were differences in cars back then as well, an example Keke Rosberg.
For years he struggled around the back of the field(indeed even to qualify*) in a mixture of Theodore, ATS, Wolf and Fittipaldi cars all running the same Cosworth mechanical package with a paltry 7 points in 1980 to show for 4 years of hard work, 1982 jumps in a Williams FW07C(later FW08) running the same mechanical package and is World Champion.
Whilst this may seem to defeat my earlier argument, the rules(and the commercial environment) allowed the teams to concentrate on engineering the car and some did better than others.
1982 had 7 different race winners in 15 races and one of those by only 1/10 sec and others by only a few seconds(plus the remarkable Monaco GP where the extraordinary chain of retirements on the last lap meant Patrese was effectively the only finisher).

Another aspect of the points system of that era to consider was that not all races counted and your worst results could be dropped (in 1982, 4 races) so there was an incentive to drive harder for the high places rather than cruise for consistent finishes... wonder how something like that would have affected the 2007/2008 results?

Cheers

* Remember qualifying and pre-qualifying, whilst it would be great to see those days back again it would be fair to say that despite the common, if not quite ubiquitous, mechanical package some of those teams that were making up the numbers did not truly deserve to be in F1

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-12-13 17:26:23 and read 11436 times.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 130):
Another aspect of the points system of that era to consider was that not all races counted and your worst results could be dropped (in 1982, 4 races) so there was an incentive to drive harder for the high places rather than cruise for consistent finishes... wonder how something like that would have affected the 2007/2008 results?

Yes, only the best 11 races were taken into account.

If we apply this system for the 2008 championship (with however the 2008 point attribution: 10 points for the win, 8 for the 2nd place, etc.), then:


1 - Massa: 92 points (instead of 97)
2 - Hamilton: 90 points (instead of 98)
3 - Raikkonen: 74 points (instead of 75)
4 - Kubica: 69 points (instead of 75)
5 - Alonso: 60 points (instead of 61)
6 - Heidfeld; 60 points (same)

So Massa would be champion, if my calculations are correct.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-12-13 19:35:42 and read 11429 times.

Speaking of pit stops, here are a few funny ones from seasons past.

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=OilctTl9Xik

Only downside, it didn't include some of Ferrari's finest pitstops from this year.  Wink

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-12-13 21:52:32 and read 11422 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 127):
Oh, and I found out that tyre changes were totally prohibited during races in 2005, except if the tyre had a puncture or if there was a change of weather. They were again authorised the following year.

That rule produced one of the most dramatic ending to a race in recent time.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=IAgvS61J89U

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2008-12-13 22:11:21 and read 11420 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 131):
So Massa would be champion, if my calculations are correct.

Well lets then bring in that system  Wink

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-12-14 02:50:22 and read 11401 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 134):
Well lets then bring in that system

Nah, what is the point of racing 18 times if only 11 of your best results are taken into account? In the times were Formula 1 needs to save money badly, it would not make any sense to race 7 times for nothing.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2008-12-14 03:50:32 and read 11395 times.

Slightly off topic although not really. A link to a picture of Hammy with Prince Albert of Monaco.

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/84...840%2c83963834%2c83963829|0&mode=c

British formula one world champion Lewis Hamilton (L) shakes hands with Prince Albert II of Monaco prior to attend the 2008 FIA Prize Giving gala, on December 12, 2008 in Monaco. AFP PHOTO POOL VALERY HACHE (Photo credit should read VALERY HACHE/AFP/Getty Images)

Two eligible multimillionaire bachelors together.

Now the ugly guy Max Mosley posing with the nice Prince. I guess he is still President of the FIA this is why he's there...

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/84...840%2c83963834%2c83963829|0&mode=c

Prince Albert II of Monaco (R) and President of the Federation Internationale de l'automobile (FIA) Max Mosley (L) arrive to attend the 2008 FIA Prize Giving gala, on December 12, 2008 in Monaco. AFP PHOTO POOL VALERY HACHE (Photo credit should read VALERY HACHE/AFP/Getty Images)

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-12-15 23:04:18 and read 11310 times.

Force India retain Sutil and Fisichella.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72474

Despite rumors of de la Rosa and Paffett joining in the wake of the technical deal with McLaren.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Waterpolodan
Posted 2008-12-15 23:34:05 and read 11307 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 133):

That rule produced one of the most dramatic ending to a race in recent time.

Beat you to it, Bill  Wink

Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 129):
That's true, remember that race in '05 when Kimi was leading for Mclaren at the 'ring, I think, and he had a flatspotted tire that was producing a dangerous vibration but he was forced to attempt to go the distance with it because of the penalty he'd receive if he stopped to change it? The vibration ended up destroying his front suspension and he crashed out of the lead with a couple laps left, another nail in the coffin of his 2005 championship hopes.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2008-12-16 00:07:30 and read 11308 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 135):
Nah, what is the point of racing 18 times if only 11 of your best results are taken into account?

IIRC, the number of best results that counted varied from season to season, depending how many races there were. According to wiki, in 1970, 11 of 13 results counted, in 1975 it was 12 of 14, and in 1980, it was 8 of 14!

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 135):
In the times were Formula 1 needs to save money badly, it would not make any sense to race 7 times for nothing.

There's simply no need these days. The "best results" system was in use at a time when car reliability was very poor and the system was designed to eliminate a degree of mechanical unreliability from deciding who was the best driver. That poor reliability was one of the reasons so many different drivers won races every year in that era.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: T1210s
Posted 2008-12-16 03:38:04 and read 11287 times.

Off topic I know but subaru have quit the wrc leaving just two manufacturers citroen and ford and imo ford wont last long either

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Bus...llyChampionship&lpos=searchresults

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Cornish
Posted 2008-12-16 03:43:45 and read 11284 times.



Quoting T1210s (Reply 140):
Off topic I know but subaru have quit the wrc leaving just two manufacturers citroen and ford and imo ford wont last long either

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Bus...sults

I just saw this. I know Subaru have had a poor couple of years in the WRC, but anyone who thinks F1 isn't going to lose any more manufacturers in the current market environment has their heads in the sand.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-12-16 03:56:42 and read 11281 times.



Quoting Cornish (Reply 141):
I just saw this. I know Subaru have had a poor couple of years in the WRC, but anyone who thinks F1 isn't going to lose any more manufacturers in the current market environment has their heads in the sand

the question is, which one? My guess is Renault in 2010.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Cornish
Posted 2008-12-16 03:59:30 and read 11282 times.

I think Toyota and Renault will continue through 2009 but finish at the end of the season.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-12-16 09:14:15 and read 11260 times.



Quoting T1210s (Reply 140):
Off topic I know but subaru have quit the wrc leaving just two manufacturers citroen and ford and imo ford wont last long either

Yeah, it's not good to be a car manufacturer at the moment  worried 

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-12-19 01:19:38 and read 11164 times.

MotorSport-Actuell of Switzerland seems to be reporting that there may be a problem with the numbers of competing cars in F1. With it likely that there may only be 18 cars on the grid in March they claim there may be a problem with TV broadcast contracts.

To resolve this there may be a request to some teams to enter a third car.
A concept that raises many more questions that it potentially solves.

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-12-19 13:08:37 and read 11134 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 137):
Despite rumors of de la Rosa and Paffett joining in the wake of the technical deal with McLaren.

A technical deal with McLaren? I thought Force India only had a deal with Mercedes.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 145):
To resolve this there may be a request to some teams to enter a third car.
A concept that raises many more questions that it potentially solves.

I'm sceptical because this would be a result of commercial issues, but personally I wouldn't really mind a third car in the team.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-12-19 14:00:42 and read 11130 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 146):
A technical deal with McLaren? I thought Force India only had a deal with Mercedes.

From-
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20971.html

Quote:
Force India's new relationship with McLaren is going to be interesting to watch and the clear out of the old management - plus the addition of McLaren man Simon Roberts as Force India's new chief executive officer - suggests that this is not a normal engine supply deal. McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh has, however, denied that Force India will become a McLaren B team....

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-12-20 05:31:28 and read 11095 times.

Ah, so it is true.. from Planet F1

Quote:
Bernie: We 'bought' Ferrari's loyalty

The tifosi will probably claim that this was merely a smart commercial decision but how many really think this is on the level?

Quote:
When they win the Constructors' Championship, which they did this year, they got $80 million more than if McLaren had won it.



Quote:
We 'bought' Ferrari. We 'bought' Ferrari's loyalty. Our deal with Ferrari was that we 'bought' them so they would not go to the others."

Smart commercial decision or conspiracy and bribery??

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-12-20 05:43:20 and read 11093 times.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 148):
Smart commercial decision or conspiracy and bribery??

Conspiracy and Bribery. Makes you wonder if rules were bent, changed,ignored of invented as part of this buying.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-12-20 05:48:32 and read 11091 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 149):
rules were bent, changed,ignored of invented

Surely you can't be thinking of F1  Wink

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2008-12-20 06:06:02 and read 11097 times.

ouch! not good ... on this report (spanish) http://www.as.com/motor/articulo/ecc...ene/dasmot/20081220dasdasmot_1/Tes

it doesn´t use the word "bought" or it's implication, but it does mention the $80mill more. for winning the champioship. I don't know what individual contracts are signed between the teams and Bernie, but every team should recieve the same amount if winning.

In any case bernie should shut up instead of ranting against Ferrari only because Montezemolo critised the way F1 is run. If this 80 million thing is illegal, he just dug his own grave by going public, and if its legal, Ferrari (and anyone else) has the right to complain and he should not use the money he agreed on paying against them.

Now, back to the "bought" Ferrari's loyalty, the artice from planet F1 just says that, that they agreed more money (which I still think its wrong btw) in case of winning than any other team, so not for a second does this prove the usual conspiracy theories. In fact, for Bernie it would have been better to have Ferrari NOT win the constructors' championship, saving a few million bucks.

So sorry guys, but the "conspiracy and bribery" theories seem to lose again. It could be an ethical debate, that all teams should recieve the same amount, but that's it.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-12-20 23:53:32 and read 11056 times.

It proves to me that Ferrari is indeed getting favourable treatment by Bernie and Max. And even with them having favoured McLaren in the past, the point is that such deals are now confirmed as common deals in F1: Pay one more, and screw the rest.

If Ferrari should get more money, then only if the performance is right. I mean, what if Ferrari has a catastrophic season, with BMW, McLaren and Renault deciding the WDC and WCC? They'd probably still get more money, despite a bad season.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-12-23 03:16:37 and read 10965 times.

Mosely thinking of reneging on his decision to stand down in October. I say sack the bastard before October comes.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72559

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2008-12-23 07:05:57 and read 10946 times.



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 116):
Probably none. Now as a non-F1 car engineer I have a question. It seems to me that refueling or not refueling the amount of fuel in the car will be the same for the whole race?
Is this right?

Depends on the race planning I say, if you´re in the back of the pack and weather is wet or you expect wet weather, you could take chances of starting with less fuel to have less wear on the
tires and less stops to change tires.
I saw a programme on Eurosport recently called "The Factory" where Williams showed their
hybrid system. I wonder how the kings of hybrids Toyota will do in this department?

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-12-23 07:13:59 and read 10945 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 153):
I say sack the bastard before October comes.

 Smile

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-12-23 22:09:27 and read 10906 times.

So is the GPDA a chapter of the UAW?

In something of a "let them eat cake statement" Massa has spoken out against pay cuts for F1 drivers.

Speaking at a UNICEF function (nice choice of venue Felipe!) Massa has said that he thinks teams will be in the wrong if they force salary cuts on drivers as a way to slash budgets, as he believes bigger cost savings can be made elsewhere.

He may be right about the second part but his comment does have a self serving flavour about it.

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-12-23 22:18:41 and read 10903 times.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 156):

Massa is a whining little weasel remember. It comes as no surprise that he's the one whinging about it. Perhaps if he's feeling the pinch he should go look for a third-party sponsor. I think most drivers will be willing to take a pay cut if it means they're going to be able to continue to race. After all, racing is what's in their blood isn't it? being paid to do it is just a bonus.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2008-12-24 02:22:41 and read 10891 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 157):
Massa is a whining little weasel remember. It comes as no surprise that he's the one whinging about it.

Actually I am surprised he said that. I would have expected it from Alonso .. in any case, it's plain stupid to say something like that. There are many places from where to cut costs, and salaries are certainly one of them. As in most pro sports these days, these guys are extremely overpaid, and whining about a salary cut when you are making millions is ridiculous and disrespectful IMHO to the people that are really being affected by this crisis, that are losing jobs, that struggle to feed their families, and a long etc.
Massa, I want you to win the wdc because of the car you drive, but please keep your mouth shut!

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: T1210s
Posted 2008-12-24 02:39:31 and read 10886 times.

Why should they take a pay cut every single time they step in the car they put their lives on the line

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2008-12-24 02:46:30 and read 10884 times.



Quoting T1210s (Reply 159):
Why should they take a pay cut every single time they step in the car they put their lives on the line

because they already make a fortune. A bus driver risks his like probably more than these guys do for 1% of what they make.

Besides, any F1 driver that has a salary cut now knows it's provisional, and as soon as thigs get better, they'll see their already fat wallet get even bigger. I'm sure they can survive 1 or 2 years making only a few million, can´t they?  Wink

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2008-12-24 03:06:43 and read 10885 times.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 156):
Speaking at a UNICEF function (nice choice of venue Felipe!)

Yep, a UNICEF press conference and in Brazil where many of his fellow citizens live in favelas with the equivalent of a couple of dollars a day...

  

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 157):
Massa is a whining little weasel remember

         Always crying like a baby when he does not get preferred treatment...

[Edited 2008-12-24 03:11:23]

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-12-26 23:07:13 and read 10783 times.

Montezemolo sounding like someone who's KERS system isn't ready.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72576

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-12-27 03:17:25 and read 10770 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 162):
Montezemolo sounding like someone who's KERS system isn't ready

He certainly is.. and is consistent about it even prompting criticism from Max Mosely about not wanting to do the difficult things that are part of F1

He is also turning into something of a whiner, in that article he again criticises the new Singapore Grand Prix-

Quote:
"I don't think we need more boats, historic skylines. I think we need more race tracks where it's possible to overtake, where the public can enjoy the competition, not a place where a crash like Piquet had can destroy the whole race...

I wonder if his dislike of Singapore would be as strident if his team had achieved the 1-2 finish that was theirs for the taking instead of throwing the race with a combination of management & driver errors barely worthy of the Keystone Kops?
Strangely he does not seem anywhere near as critical of the snooze fest that was Valencia... oh yes, of course, despite trying almost as hard to lose they actually won that one!

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2008-12-27 07:47:32 and read 10749 times.

One has to believe with the worldwide economic problems that some teams will have to cut back due to loss of adversiting, sponsorship monies and manufacturers support. Yes, drivers, especially at the high end should have to take a cut in salary, but so should the team bosses and the rest of the team members.
Honda has already bailed out for this season, Toyota posted huge losses, M-B and BMW probably are not going to be profitable this year due to loss of sales. To keep the shareholders from revolting on the mangement, and workers from getting ticked off for layoffs, they will have to cut back on some of the many millions spent on F-1 and other racing at least for public relations reasons.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-12-27 13:14:54 and read 10734 times.

Sydney Morning Herald is reporting that Mexico's Carlos Slim, the second richest man in the world and head of Telmex group, is taking over the Honda F1 team

http://news.smh.com.au/sport/mexican...es-honda-report-20081228-75zv.html

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: BlueElephant
Posted 2008-12-27 14:58:59 and read 10725 times.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 165):
Sydney Morning Herald is reporting that Mexico's Carlos Slim, the second richest man in the world and head of Telmex group, is taking over the Honda F1 team

http://news.smh.com.au/sport/mexican....html

I heard about him considering to do it.

And I also heard about David Richards doing it.
Do you know whats going on?... Is this a viable source?
Does that mean that Rodriguez fellow might get a drive?
I guess the article answered my question....Bruno Senna and Jensen Button...

(hope to see cooler scheme on the car...than the earth)

[Edited 2008-12-27 15:02:13]

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2008-12-27 15:28:14 and read 10719 times.



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 166):
And I also heard about David Richards doing it.

I've also heard about this. Richards stated he can't do it alone and was looking for help from the middle east, but teaming up with Slim might just work. Then they can sack that useless Nick Fry and start building a potentially great team. If Honda didn't sack Dave Richards at the end of 2004 they would probably have a championship under their belt by now.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: LTU932
Posted 2008-12-27 16:19:07 and read 10722 times.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 156):
Speaking at a UNICEF function (nice choice of venue Felipe!) Massa has said that he thinks teams will be in the wrong if they force salary cuts on drivers as a way to slash budgets, as he believes bigger cost savings can be made elsewhere.

He may be right about the second part but his comment does have a self serving flavour about it.

Well, then he should not complain if he gets sacked from Ferrari later down the road, and has to return to doing what he used to do in the past, driving for an inferior team with a salary that, for F1 conditions, would be considered minimum wage.

Hell, why is he even rejecting his future paycut at an UNICEF function? He would have made a bigger impression if he said that instead of a formal paycut, he would donate a huge chunk of his wage to UNICEF. "Little Phil" should better be careful when he speaks.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 165):
Sydney Morning Herald is reporting that Mexico's Carlos Slim, the second richest man in the world and head of Telmex group, is taking over the Honda F1 team

I need to watch the Mexican press over it, especially the analysts from ESPN Mexico. They're going to have a field day over this.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 166):
Do you know whats going on?... Is this a viable source?

Sport1 in Germany is also reporting this development.

http://www.sport1.de/de/formel1/artikel_48929.html

In any case, so much for Rubens Barichello in F1. Even though he did have legitimate grievances about things in his carreer (e.g. the infamous Austria GP, when he was ordered to let Michael Schumacher pass him), he was never that good of a driver anyway. But let's see how Bruno Senna can live up to the hype that will be made over him, being the nephew of Ayrton Senna and such.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-12-28 16:12:05 and read 10679 times.



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 166):
Is this a viable source?

Perhaps not, Autosport is reporting that there are still 4 interested parties and no deal has been done as yet.
No announcement expected until the new year,

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72581

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2008-12-29 06:39:39 and read 10652 times.

Seems reports of Carlos Slim taking over Honda F1 were not only premature but completely misleading as well!
GrandPrix.com reports ....

Quote:
Slim not buying Honda Racing F1
There has been much speculation in recent days about the Mexican entrepreneur Carlos Slim making a move to buy the assets of the Honda Racing F1 operation. The telecommunications billionaire has now decided that enough is enough and he has issued a statement saying that he is not even in negotiation for the team, let alone buying it.

Autosport.com reports ...

Quote:
Honda Racing chiefs Nick Fry and Ross Brawn say they remain fully focused on securing a buyout of their team by the end of January, after denying reports a deal had been completed with Mexican businessman Carlos Slim. ....
..... "Escuderia Telmex informs that Carlos Slim Helu has not acquired nor has any negotiations for this aim with the Honda Formula One team. All the information on this subject lacks foundation and is completely false."

We will have to wait a little longer to see what becomes of the team.

On a brighter, or at least different note, there is talk of a street GP in Rome.
Can I design the track please can I !!!

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: BlueElephant
Posted 2008-12-29 07:48:39 and read 10647 times.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 170):
On a brighter, or at least different note, there is talk of a street GP in Rome.
Can I design the track please can I !!!

Hmm...Interesting...I wonder how Montezemolo will take it.

He hates street tracks (because Ferrari doesn't do well on them)...but this one would be in Rome... hmmm

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Boeing74741R
Posted 2009-01-02 08:37:43 and read 10535 times.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 168):
In any case, so much for Rubens Barichello in F1. Even though he did have legitimate grievances about things in his carreer (e.g. the infamous Austria GP, when he was ordered to let Michael Schumacher pass him), he was never that good of a driver anyway

To be honest, he achieved what he did (when not playing second fiddle/bitch to Schumacher) at Ferrari simply be having a great car during his time there.

He was good, but not outstanding. As his drives for other teams pre and post-Ferrari proves.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2009-01-03 04:45:16 and read 10495 times.

And he was only ever at Ferrari purely for strategic marketing reasons. It's always helpful to have a local from one of your most important market in your race car.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2009-01-03 05:51:47 and read 10491 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 173):
And he was only ever at Ferrari purely for strategic marketing reasons. It's always helpful to have a local from one of your most important market in your race car.

I liked Rubens ... he was the perfect nº2 driver for the team. He wasn't good enough to be Ferrari's main driver, but he was good enough to serve the team's purposes, which was MS first. But most of all, he was a nice guy, always the happy-face type, something severely lacking these days.

And he did have his share of memorable performances too. Yes, he had the best car, but eh also knew how to drive it  Wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etBYWBZfosY&feature=related

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2009-01-03 16:19:18 and read 10470 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 174):

I liked Rubens ... he was the perfect nº2 driver for the team.

He was. He let MS pass and sold cars, what more could you want?

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2009-01-06 02:47:40 and read 10405 times.

Ferrari to bring back the pit stop light system after it cost them a sure win in Singapore.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72621

In other less exciting news, the new Ferrari will be launched next week on Monday 12 January at Fiorano.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72623

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-01-06 06:38:27 and read 10383 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 176):
In other less exciting news, the new Ferrari will be launched next week on Monday 12 January at Fiorano.

Less exciting. No. I really look forward for that!

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 176):
Ferrari to bring back the pit stop light system after it cost them a sure win in Singapore.

Oh no. I really hope that the light system works properly this time.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2009-01-06 07:06:29 and read 10380 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 175):
He was. He let MS pass and sold cars, what more could you want?

And was the fastest driver on the grid for a few seasons, only behind MS. Granted he had the best car, but you also have to know jow to drive it ... ask Irvine  Wink

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 176):
n other less exciting news, the new Ferrari will be launched next week on Monday 12 January at Fiorano.

Less exciting? Do you really hate Ferrari that much?  Wink It's the presentation of one of the two favourite teams to win the 2009 season

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2009-01-07 02:40:13 and read 10351 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 178):
Less exciting? Do you really hate Ferrari that much?

I was being sarcastic  Wink

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2009-01-07 03:24:30 and read 10342 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 179):
I was being sarcastic Wink

 Big grin  Big grin

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2009-01-07 04:00:35 and read 10338 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 176):
the new Ferrari will be launched next week on Monday 12 January at Fiorano

What will be good about this years launches is that the cars will look pretty much as they will on the grid at Albert Park.
In recent years quite gorgeous, sleek creations have often been revealed at launches only to later be bastardised by literally dozens of barge boards, horns, winglets and other assorted aero bits & bobs.

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-01-07 06:52:31 and read 10322 times.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 181):
In recent years quite gorgeous, sleek creations have often been revealed at launches only to later be bastardised by literally dozens of barge boards, horns, winglets and other assorted aero bits & bobs.

But this season cars will looks really weird. Not as we are used to.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: BlueElephant
Posted 2009-01-07 07:05:09 and read 10318 times.

Not Completely on topic...but

Anyone see the EY 340? in the F1 scheme?!

GORGEOUS.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4273280/

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: BlueElephant
Posted 2009-01-07 11:18:59 and read 10305 times.

Something more on topic.

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090107091310.shtml

According the most recent ING F1 Survey...

McLaren is officially the most popular Team.

Followed closely by Ferrari...

and then Renault and Williams.


Looks like the Tifosi will be upset to hear they've lost some fans.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2009-01-07 13:43:55 and read 10288 times.



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 184):
Looks like the Tifosi will be upset to hear they've lost some fans.

If fans were "lost" they weren't fans in the first place. It's like supporting a football team and then out of the blue support the rival team.
So all these new "fans" Mclaren got will end up supporting someone else if things go wrong. As I said, those people are not fans. They might be F1 followers, but not fans of any team, so in short, we're better off without them Big grin

btw, ther are still more red flags in every GP than any other  Wink

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-01-07 16:58:59 and read 10281 times.



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 183):
Anyone see the EY 340? in the F1 scheme?!

It looks really nice. Would love to take a flight on that aircraft!

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 185):
btw, ther are still more red flags in every GP than any other

Concur. You always see the red flags!

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2009-01-07 23:43:27 and read 10265 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 185):
If fans were "lost" they weren't fans in the first place. It's like supporting a football team and then out of the blue support the rival team.

You can almost guarantee that they are Gen Y. Or it could simply be they're garnering fans because they're on top. That's how they got me back in 1998.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 181):

What will be good about this years launches is that the cars will look pretty much as they will on the grid at Albert Park.
In recent years quite gorgeous, sleek creations have often been revealed at launches only to later be bastardised by literally dozens of barge boards, horns, winglets and other assorted aero bits & bobs.

From what I've read most teams will have 2nd evolution cars on the grid. But you're right in saying that the change in look won't be as dramatic with the new regs.


Etihad F1 livery as blueelephant's link is no longer working

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Etiha...Airways/Airbus-A340-642/1462433/M/

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Baroque
Posted 2009-01-08 00:00:46 and read 10262 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 185):
As I said, those people are not fans. They might be F1 followers, but not fans of any team

If I understand that correctly, may the Lord give us followers but not fans. It is one thing to hear from cognoscenti but another altogether to hear from the convictores.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2009-01-08 00:11:57 and read 10258 times.



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 184):
According the most recent ING F1 Survey...

McLaren is officially the most popular Team.

That's because I have been advertising Team McLaren all over Facebook.  Big grin  Big grin  Big grin

The Etihad A340 looks superb. I hope to run into it in some airport.
I will have to try and find out where it flies to. Does anyone know the a/c's reg number?

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2009-01-08 00:23:38 and read 10258 times.



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 189):
Does anyone know the a/c's reg number?

Madame, you only need to ask...

A6-EHJ


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Lars Hentschel



Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2009-01-08 01:51:44 and read 10246 times.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 190):
Madame, you only need to ask...
A6-EHJ

Thanks a lot StealthZ.  cheerful 
I always loved painted aircrafts. This is certainly a great one!

Maybe I should look into going to the AbuDhabi Grand Prix.
It could make for a cheap mileage run from Nice on Turkish Airlines.

With Monaco and Singapore it would make me 3 races for the season.
Any others planning to attend?  Confused

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-01-08 06:49:26 and read 10220 times.



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 191):
With Monaco and Singapore it would make me 3 races for the season.

Are you going to attend the SIN GP?

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2009-01-08 07:06:12 and read 10218 times.

I read an article this morning in L'Équipe on Mosley's new ideas to reduce costs.

http://www.lequipe.fr/Formule1/breve...ouillonne-d-idees-economiques.html

Basically, he said that budget should be limited (wow, is it not what we've been asking for years??)

A list of chassis elements will be shared or their development will be frozen.

Engines will not be able to go over 17,000 RPM in 2010

A unique gear box manufacturer could be in place in 2010.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2009-01-08 07:15:38 and read 10214 times.



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 191):
With Monaco and Singapore it would make me 3 races for the season.
Any others planning to attend? Confused

I miss the Argentina GP so much  Sad
The atmosphere was Monzesque, with all the Italian descent living here you can imagine what team most people support. And Argentina has a lot of racing tradition ... it was a perfect venue, but not apperntly so to make money out of it

Quoting Baroque (Reply 188):
If I understand that correctly, may the Lord give us followers but not fans

I can't help it, but I have to disagree. Like in football, fans provide that extra thing neede to make the show unique. Just my opinion, and I understand why some disagree, but it's beautiful to see the red flags, or the Spanish following Alonso, etc.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2009-01-08 07:18:15 and read 10214 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 194):
I miss the Argentina GP so much

Me too. Especially when you consider that Argentian people are true motorsports fans. Just look at all the people gathered for WRC or at the moment for the Dakar!

In general, the whole American continent (North and South) is not enough represented. In 2009, there will be only the Brazilian GP, correct? That's clearly not enough.

[Edited 2009-01-08 07:22:46]

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2009-01-08 07:41:56 and read 10209 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 195):
In general, the whole American continent (North and South) is not enough represented. In 2009, there will be only the Brazilian GP, correct? That's clearly not enough.

Correct and i could not agree more. As you say, the public here is huge. In local competitions, it's like going to a football match, and the big rivalry is between Ford and Chevrolet. It's amazing!

And as you mention, you can look at the Dakar, or at the Cordoba rally each year and the nuber of people is incredible, all in a festive mood, usually spending the night camping, having bbq's, drinking ...

just to give you an idea of what how passionate fans are, check out the stands in the following link

http://www.fotosdeltc.com.ar/16-bsas/imagepages/image78.html

(btw the race track is the same F1 used)

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2009-01-08 10:18:30 and read 10199 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 196):
ust to give you an idea of what how passionate fans are, check out the stands in the following link

Yeah, that's amazing!

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2009-01-08 13:16:06 and read 10196 times.

From Moseley's letter to FOTA-

Quote:
We intend to seek FOTA's help to investigate the use of moveable aerodynamic devices.

That will change the game somewhat but I think it is still a fair way from happening.

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2009-01-09 16:03:43 and read 10156 times.

New Renault fails crash test.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72688

Murray Walker tips Kubica for 2009 title.

http://www.autosport.com/news/grapevine.php/id/72703

STR confirm Buemi for 2009 - No word yet on Bourdais or the second seat.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72695

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-01-09 16:24:18 and read 10153 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 199):
Murray Walker tips Kubica for 2009 title.

http://www.autosport.com/news/grapev...72703

That is very interesting. But a BMW against both McLaren and Ferrari? I dont really think so, or have I missed something?

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2009-01-09 17:53:53 and read 10156 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 200):
That is very interesting. But a BMW against both McLaren and Ferrari? I dont really think so, or have I missed something?

Why not? BMW have shown solid progress over the past few seasons. I don't think they'll win the title in 2009 but I think they will make life very difficult for McLaren and Ferrari and possibly go on to win it in 2010. I expect Abu Dhabi to host one of the most interesting races of the season with Hamilton, Raikkonen, Massa and Kubica all vying for the title.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2009-01-10 05:34:28 and read 10130 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 199):
New Renault fails crash test.

They should send the Mégane, then. With maximum stars at the Euro-Ncap crash tests, it would do the trick  laughing 

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 199):
STR confirm Buemi for 2009 - No word yet on Bourdais or the second seat.

If I were him, I would sign somewhere else: endurance, IndyCar or something like that. Because by waiting so much, he will end up having nothing at all for 2009  Sad

Quoting B747forever (Reply 200):
But a BMW against both McLaren and Ferrari? I dont really think so, or have I missed something?

What makes you think that BMW cannot join the party? They have already proven to be a serious contender last year.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-01-10 07:40:44 and read 10119 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 202):
What makes you think that BMW cannot join the party? They have already proven to be a serious contender last year.

That they dropped too much at the end of last season. I think there is a little more missing. Maybe the 2010 season. But I doubt it will happen this coming season.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 201):
I expect Abu Dhabi to host one of the most interesting races of the season with Hamilton, Raikkonen, Massa and Kubica all vying for the title.

All (true) F1 fans would all get so excited that they would suffer from heart attacks  Wink

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2009-01-10 21:16:19 and read 10092 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 203):
That they dropped too much at the end of last season.

That's all part of the process of becoming a top team. They will have learnt from that and development will be much more intense in 2009.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2009-01-10 21:29:18 and read 10090 times.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 194):
I miss the Argentina GP so much
The atmosphere was Monzesque, with all the Italian descent living here you can imagine what team most people support. And Argentina has a lot of racing tradition ... it was a perfect venue, but not apperntly so to make money out of it

Personally I think it´s more politics, sporting the Irish flag for Eddie Irvine when he was 3rd during the last race in 1998 did upset ther rulers of F1.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2009-01-11 03:22:19 and read 10071 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 203):
That they dropped too much at the end of last season. I think there is a little more missing. Maybe the 2010 season. But I doubt it will happen this coming season.

They actually gave up the development of the 2008 car at mid-season to focus on the development of the 2009 one. So I would indeed expect them to be fight with Ferrari and McLaren.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-01-11 08:01:10 and read 10049 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 206):
They actually gave up the development of the 2008 car at mid-season to focus on the development of the 2009 one.

Wow, I didnt know that. But wasnt that a bit stupid because Kubica had the chance to win the WDC.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2009-01-11 09:23:28 and read 10044 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 207):
But wasnt that a bit stupid because Kubica had the chance to win the WDC.

That's what Kubica complained about. He repeated many times that if BMW had kept the same pace in the second part of the season that the first one, he would have probably fought for the title until the end.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2009-01-12 03:05:30 and read 10007 times.

F60 launched

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72731

Looks an anorexic version of last years car....

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2009-01-12 03:37:01 and read 10004 times.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 209):
F60 launched

Nice! I can see that Ferrari took advantage of the "free zone" let by the FIA just under the air intake.

Here is a large picture:



[Edited 2009-01-12 03:37:27]

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2009-01-12 03:43:17 and read 9994 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 210):
Here is a large picture:

What are those ugly vertical "posts" the mirrors are mounted on?

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2009-01-12 03:52:09 and read 9991 times.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 211):
What are those ugly vertical "posts" the mirrors are mounted on?

That's the "aerodynamic free zone" or whatever the FIA calls it. Basically, the FIA forbids any aerodynamics appendix, except rear and front wings, and a small zone below the air intake where engineers can implement whatever they want. Therefore, my guess is that Ferrari took advantage of this blurry aspect of the rules to create a rear view mirror that would also play the role of small aerodynamics appendix.

[Edited 2009-01-12 03:54:16]

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2009-01-12 04:10:51 and read 9988 times.

The front wing bothers me, still trying to figure whose brain fart came up with that.(not Ferrari, the rulemakers)

It looks to me that who ever leads into 1st corner is likely to romp away to a win while most others pit for (multiple) nose replacements.

Cheers

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2009-01-12 05:03:08 and read 9976 times.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 213):
It looks to me that who ever leads into 1st corner is likely to romp away to a win while most others pit for (multiple) nose replacements.

Indeed  checkmark 

And that is not going to improve overtaking manoeuvres as drivers will be scared to go for contact.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-01-12 06:37:47 and read 9965 times.

Finally the F2009 is launched. Looks quite nice.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 208):
That's what Kubica complained about. He repeated many times that if BMW had kept the same pace in the second part of the season that the first one, he would have probably fought for the title until the end.

That is really sad. Well we will wait and see if BMW did the right thing.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 213):
It looks to me that who ever leads into 1st corner is likely to romp away to a win while most others pit for (multiple) nose replacements.

Cant agree with you. It is way too long.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: NA
Posted 2009-01-12 07:06:57 and read 9956 times.

Some more, and larger pics of the new Ferrari, in general a nice looking F1:

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fo...-38718-3.html#backToArticle=600741

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 211):
What are those ugly vertical "posts" the mirrors are mounted on?

I dont care, they are ugly.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: NA
Posted 2009-01-12 07:15:54 and read 9952 times.

And the F60 in moving pictures:

http://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/video/...errari-enthuellt-rote-goettin.html

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2009-01-12 23:29:32 and read 9907 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 215):
Finally the F2009 is launched.

Actually the F2009 hasn't been launched, but the F60 has :P

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 214):
And that is not going to improve overtaking manoeuvres as
drivers will be scared to go for contact.

well they should be avoiding contact in all circumstances. But accidental contact could prove to be quite costly. You would like to think that the wings have been made stronger.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Sudden
Posted 2009-01-13 00:41:29 and read 9900 times.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 213):
The front wing bothers me, still trying to figure whose brain fart came up with that.

Interesting thing about the new design is that the driver is allowed to make adjustments to the wing from inside the cockpit, while driving.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 215):
Quoting StealthZ (Reply 213):
It looks to me that who ever leads into 1st corner is likely to romp away to a win while most others pit for (multiple) nose replacements.

Cant agree with you. It is way too long.

You need to read again what StealthZ wrote.

Line up so far for this season:
McLaren Mercedes
1 Lewis Hamilton (GB)
2 Heikki Kovalainen (FIN)

Ferrari
3 Kimi Raikkonen (FIN)
4 Felipe Massa (BR)

BMW Sauber
5 Robert Kubica (PL)
6 Nick Heidfeld (D)

Renault
7 Fernando Alonso (E)
8 Nelson Piquet (BR)

Toyota
9 Jarno Trulli (I)
10 Timo Glock (D)

STR Ferrari
11 Sebastien Buemi (CH)
12 TBA (I would like to see Sato get this seat)

Red Bull Renault
14 Mark Webber (AUS)
15 Sebastian Vettel (D)

Williams Toyota
16 Nico Rosberg (D)
17 Kazuki Nakajima (J)

Honda
18 TBA
19 TBA

Force India Mercedes
20 Adrian Sutil (D)
21 Giancarlo Fisichella (I)
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/1/8829.html

Aim for the sky!
Sudden

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2009-01-13 05:08:02 and read 9880 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 218):
well they should be avoiding contact in all circumstances

Absolutely. I just did not express myself clearly.

What I meant is that drivers will be even more scared to overtake and risk any possible contact (it happens, especially on the straight line of Monza) as the large wing on the front can represent a greater risk than before. Basically, they will not be able to go "wheel to wheel".

As StealthZ said, the first lap's first corner of each GP could be a nightmare. And I don't want to think about Monaco!

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-01-13 06:52:53 and read 9871 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 218):
Actually the F2009 hasn't been launched, but the F60 has :P

Whatever  Wink

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 220):
. Basically, they will not be able to go "wheel to wheel".

If that is true, then nooooooooooo. It is really sad. Really love wheel to wheel maneuvers!

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Boeing74741R
Posted 2009-01-14 12:31:12 and read 9806 times.

Even though I despise the new-regulation rear wing, the Ferrari F60 does look good. Prefer the old-regulation aerodynamics though, but I'm not complaining about the long-awaited return of slicks.  bigthumbsup 

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 220):
What I meant is that drivers will be even more scared to overtake and risk any possible contact (it happens, especially on the straight line of Monza) as the large wing on the front can represent a greater risk than before. Basically, they will not be able to go "wheel to wheel".

To be honest, it will be the driver's fault for not having the balls to risk such an overtaking manoeuvre.

Risk = reward.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2009-01-14 15:43:09 and read 9798 times.



Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 222):
To be honest, it will be the driver's fault for not having the balls to risk such an overtaking manoeuvre.

Risk = reward.

We'll see how it goes in Australia for the first round!  Wink

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Sudden
Posted 2009-01-15 05:45:41 and read 9771 times.

The Toyota has now been virtually launched as well. Is this something new the teams are doing to be first out, one think.
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/1/8841.html

Especially at the start of this season with big changes to the aero package, and back to slicks, I think we are in for some good/bad surprises.
Although Trulli is positive (what else can he say, really), I do think Toyota will have a better chance of scoring better then they have done up until now. However, I think the points will be brought home by Glock, not Trulli.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2009-01-15 07:24:41 and read 9758 times.



Quoting Sudden (Reply 224):
The Toyota has now been virtually launched as well

Sweet Jesus! What is this horrible nose??  vomit 

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Sudden
Posted 2009-01-15 08:11:33 and read 9752 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 225):
Sweet Jesus! What is this horrible nose??

I think you can sort of compare it with getting way to big shoes, it sticks out, and it is totally out or proportion.

Massa find their Ferrari good looking. He don't earn millions for being negative, that's for sure.
The A1 car is now the best looking open single seater in my mind.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2009-01-15 12:59:31 and read 9726 times.



Quoting Sudden (Reply 226):
The A1 car is now the best looking open single seater in my mind.

Aim for the sky!

I seem to much prefer the cars as they were before.  airplane 
I have to wait and see them racing (preferably for real) to really be able to give a definite answer.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: BA757
Posted 2009-01-15 14:10:56 and read 9725 times.

I'm not so sure these new cars look that bad, the rear wings look a bit peculiar, but the slicks are certainly a welcomed return,

I can't wait to see what the new McLaren looks like (the business hopefully).

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2009-01-16 04:20:13 and read 9695 times.



Quoting BA757 (Reply 228):
but the slicks are certainly a welcomed return,

I agree on that. The grooved tires (to reduce downforce and therefore allow more overtakes, according to the geniuses of the FIA) did nothing more than slick tires.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Moo
Posted 2009-01-16 04:53:38 and read 9693 times.

BBC is reporting that Ron Dennis is to step down as McLaren F1 boss before the start of this years F1 season - Martin Whitmarsh will take over.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7833402.stm

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2009-01-16 06:12:09 and read 9683 times.



Quoting Moo (Reply 230):
BBC is reporting that Ron Dennis is to step down as McLaren F1 boss before the start of this years F1 season - Martin Whitmarsh will take over.

There had been a lot of speculation that he would step down. I'm sure he's delighted that Hamilton won the WDC, but I'm equally sure he would have liked to have taken the constructors' title as well.

It's easy to imagine that the last couple of years wmust have taken a considerable toll on one of the sport's few gentlemen. I wish him well for the future.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2009-01-16 06:44:57 and read 9672 times.

The new McLaren:

http://fr.f1-live.com/f1/fr/photos/2009/index_team-mclaren_01.shtml

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/photos/2009/team-mclaren/diapo_154.jpg

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-01-16 06:53:23 and read 9669 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 232):
The new McLaren:

Looks nice.

Quoting Moo (Reply 230):
BBC is reporting that Ron Dennis is to step down as McLaren F1 boss before the start of this years F1 season - Martin Whitmarsh will take over.

Isnt a big surprise. You really didnt see a lot nor heard of him last season.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: BlueElephant
Posted 2009-01-16 07:36:14 and read 9661 times.



Quoting Moo (Reply 230):
BBC is reporting that Ron Dennis is to step down as McLaren F1 boss before the start of this years F1 season - Martin Whitmarsh will take over.

I hope Whitmarsh upholds The McLaren name and the morality and ethical values of the company.

Great work to Ron Dennis.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 232):
The new McLaren:

http://fr.f1-live.com/f1/fr/photos/2...shtml

I think she looks fabulous really...

Better than the Ferrari and Toyota so far for sure.

Is it me...or does the rear wing look different than the Ferrari or the Toyota.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2009-01-16 09:07:15 and read 9652 times.



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 234):

I hope Whitmarsh upholds The McLaren name and the morality and ethical values of the company.

He's been working at McLaren for 20 years and has been the CEO of McLaren Racing since 2004, so I guess the transition will be ok  Wink

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2009-01-16 09:23:33 and read 9646 times.



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 234):
Better than the Ferrari and Toyota so far for sure.

 checkmark 

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 234):
Is it me...or does the rear wing look different than the Ferrari or the Toyota.

Let's compare:

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/photos/2009/team-mclaren/diapo_150.jpg

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/photos/2009/team-ferrari/diapo_108.jpg

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/photos/2009/team-toyota/diapo_117.jpg

It's not obvious, but yes, it's slightly different.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2009-01-16 09:57:56 and read 9641 times.



Quoting Moo (Reply 230):
BBC is reporting that Ron Dennis is to step down as McLaren F1 boss before the start of this years F1 season

Oh this is quite some news. I will miss him greatly.
I hope he will be in Monaco and on other circuits and he will be staying with McLaren even if he steps down.
Having a new man will be quite some change. We will see how it goes.
Maybe McLaren should say it like Obama "change we can believe in"!

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-01-16 14:59:15 and read 9626 times.

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/1/8846.html

raikkonen says that Ferrari will be probably the last team he will race with. So if he doesnt extend his contract it seems he will leave F1 soon.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: Bill142
Posted 2009-01-16 18:30:39 and read 9614 times.

Ron Dennis stepping down as team principal has been on the cards for a long time. He was once rumoured to be Bernie Ecclestones successor. Martin Whitmarsh has been gradually taking over duties from Ron, and it was clearly going to get to a point where Ron has to hand over everything or nothing at all. Possibly amounting to a power struggle within the team. The McLaren business has grown over the years from a racing team in to a group of businesses with highly specialised focuses. Eventually someone was going to be required to oversee the entire business, which is what Ron is doing.

The 2009 car looks good. It's going to be a double Championship winner with Heikki Kovalinen winning the drivers championship.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-01-16 18:34:35 and read 9613 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 239):
with Heikki Kovalinen winning the drivers championship.

You think that McLaren and Hamilton will allow that. They are all in favor of Hamilton.

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2009-01-17 01:12:40 and read 9594 times.

Ecclestone is still on his points reform crusade, these 2 quotes from Autosport.com

Quote:
"Forget the word 'medals', I think the guy that wins the most races should win the championship," Ecclestone told reporters at Ferrari's ski retreat.

and

Quote:
"This year a lot of them sat there being second and they didn't try to win because it was only worth two points. It is not worth the risk."

We go thru this crap every few years.. what happens when some Roger Revhead comes along and wins the first 8 or so races.. the second half of the season counts for nothing(note to Bernie.. with a corresponding decline in commercial returns)

Just leave it alone Bernie and let's keep having last race cliff hangers!!

Cheers

PS.. notice where Bernie was speaking from!!

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2009-01-17 02:59:57 and read 9576 times.



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 239):
It's going to be a double Championship winner with Heikki Kovalinen winning the drivers championship.

I was not really convinced by Kova last year. I don't see him being anything but McLaren's number 2.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 240):
You think that McLaren and Hamilton will allow that. They are all in favor of Hamilton.

Exactly.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 241):
Ecclestone is still on his points reform crusade, these 2 quotes from Autosport.com

I don't understand the fuss he is making about this. Just increase the win to 12 points, Bernie. End of story!

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 241):
PS.. notice where Bernie was speaking from!!

 Big grin

Topic: RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2009-01-17 03:08:00 and read 9575 times.

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