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Topic: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-21 19:26:39 and read 3628 times.

If this subject has been on before, I apologize, and delete it.

I was wondering if anyone has seen his latest movie and what is the opinion of it. I found it very disturbing and very true about the screwing we are taking by Wall Street. It is not a movie to be liked by Republicans, of that I am sure.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: HOOB747
Posted 2009-10-21 19:46:10 and read 3622 times.

I haven't seen it yet, but look forward to it. Some of our sharpest criticisms come from the most obnoxious of artists. His work is controversial, but usually on the mark.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-21 19:51:24 and read 3619 times.



Quoting HOOB747 (Reply 1):
I haven't seen it yet, but look forward to it. Some of our sharpest criticisms come from the most obnoxious of artists. His work is controversial, but usually on the mark.

I saw it just today, yes he is over the top sometimes, but he is right on the mark about this country and its problems. Well worth your time. I makes you think, damm, he is right. I learned something about FDR also. Interesting to say the least.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2009-10-21 20:18:35 and read 3598 times.

I found a torrent copy on the internet and downloaded it for free (since Moore hates capitalism, I'm sure he won't mind if I don't pay him for it).

He goes way too far, and his supposed solutions are just stupid. I agree that Wall Street has taken us for a ride, but I believe it is more because of stupid government regulation and programs which have removed/dampened the free market mechanisms that naturally exist to punish poor decision-making.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-21 20:32:35 and read 3589 times.



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
I found a torrent copy on the internet and downloaded it for free (since Moore hates capitalism, I'm sure he won't mind if I don't pay him for it).

He goes way too far, and his supposed solutions are just stupid. I agree that Wall Street has taken us for a ride, but I believe it is more because of stupid government regulation and programs which have removed/dampened the free market mechanisms that naturally exist to punish poor decision-making.

That is his technique, over the top, but it makes you realize the "over the top" practiced by Wall Street. I found it depressing to see what we have become. I agree with him about Reagan beginning the dismantling our industrial base to kill unions. His firing of the PATCO folks. Over the top but damm true.

Congress is the problem here as in all problems of regulations and laws. Corporations and Banks led us here to the brink of ruin. How did you like the Goldman Saks boys in the Treasury Department? Just a little over the top there too.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Baroque
Posted 2009-10-21 21:29:07 and read 3566 times.

Even with bad laws, there still exist a basic morality that many of the purblind supporters of the free market trumpet so loudly. So bad laws do not mean you MUST act dishonestly. I look forward to another MM expose. This one is needed just as much as the others. Just hope it has more effect than Bowling for Columbine did.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2009-10-22 08:55:31 and read 3455 times.



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
I found a torrent copy on the internet and downloaded it for free (since Moore hates capitalism, I'm sure he won't mind if I don't pay him for it).

Don't worry, Michael and the producers will reel in nice money even without your personal contribution (or stealing, as people back in the 1900s would have put it).

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Braniff747SP
Posted 2009-10-22 09:52:29 and read 3430 times.

I saw it on special engagement, and being a Republican, I have to say, some of the things he said where quite true, even if I hate his Socialist ideas.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: AM744
Posted 2009-10-22 09:59:51 and read 3427 times.



Quoting HOOB747 (Reply 1):
His work is controversial, but usually on the mark.

If somewhat radical at times. You can't harass Charlton Heston at his very home (see 'Bowling for Columbine'), as much as you disagree with his political stance, and expect to be regarded as balanced or broad minded. Specially when you consider that he evidently accepted the interview in good faith only to find himself attacked. Distasteful.

You can't attack 'Capitalism' per se or any other economic or political system for that matter. Crony capitalism is questionable though. NO system can work with the wrong (read unethical) people at the helm.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: FlyDeltaJets87
Posted 2009-10-22 10:51:40 and read 3391 times.

A movie bashing capitalism by someone who hates capitalism, yet will make money of this movie through the system of capitalism. Boy, if that isn't the definition of irony, or maybe even hypocrisy. Are there crooks on Wall Street? Yes. Many of them are now in Club Fed.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 6):
Don't worry, Michael and the producers will reel in nice money even without your personal contribution (or stealing, as people back in the 1900s would have put it).

Again, the definition of irony, right?

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2009-10-22 10:56:31 and read 3385 times.



Quoting AM744 (Reply 8):
You can't attack 'Capitalism' per se or any other economic or political system for that matter. Crony capitalism is questionable though.

Excellent point. We do indeed suffer from Crony Capitalism, rather than simply capitalism.

Getting rid of capitalism would be of little help - anyone who has lived/worked in non-capitalist countries will certainly attest that cronyism is probably even more prevalent there.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: ATCtower
Posted 2009-10-22 11:10:18 and read 3374 times.

Not to sound like an arrogant prick here but what the hell is wrong with capitalism? Why are we so infatuated with believing capitalism is being selfish? Can capitalism not constitute the spoils of working hard, planning, understanding, and executing the proper lifestyle? I am sick of hearing people whine about the negative aspects of capitalism and then sit back 'expecting' the perks of it. If you are opposed to capitalism, you should be donating every penny you can get your hands on to those less fortunate than you. You should not be reading this message as a member of a pay website, and you damn sure should not be shopping at Walmart to save money.

Capitalism is the theory our world is based on. Yes, right along side of greed. A communist society will never prevail as even those promoting the idea believe they are superior to the masses, and thus killing the idea of equality across the board. The only step down is Socialism.

As for socialism, call me an ass, or a negative Nancy here, but what is the point of socialism? Why not just say, communism is the way we want to go but dont have the guts or the brains to fight for it? I for one have health insurance and do not believe anyone should be required to make the decision of food vs. healthcare, but I am this country's future, and was not raised in a particularly wealthy household, but learned early on that an education is more valuable than anything else in this world. I received an education, primarily through hard work both financially and studiously. I have broght myself to the position where I am financially comfortable, I have a good paying job, health insurance, benefits, etc.... Why the hell should I be paying for some drug dealing piece of trash to get his "baby-mama" her fourth abortion this year, or for some jackoff drunk driver to be cared for medically? Quite honestly, I shouldnt and neither should you.

We are all dealt our hand and should not be penalized for playing it better than someone else.

My $.02

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-22 11:18:18 and read 3368 times.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 9):
Quoting AverageUser (Reply 6):
Don't worry, Michael and the producers will reel in nice money even without your personal contribution (or stealing, as people back in the 1900s would have put it).

Again, the definition of irony, right?

How so? Can you explain this for us? Where is it etched in stone that there can be no profit without Capitalism?

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2009-10-22 11:20:22 and read 3362 times.



Quoting ATCtower (Reply 11):

As for socialism, call me an ass, or a negative Nancy here, but what is the point of socialism? Why not just say, communism is the way we want to go but dont have the guts or the brains to fight for it?

Years ago I studied Marx, and read an awful lot of his writings. One of the things that I remember having a good laugh about was Marx's opinion of Socialists. I'm paraphrasing, but basically he said exactly the same thing as you - Marx claimed that you could not be a socialist without being attracted by communism, and that he despised socialists because they were too cowardly to demand what they really wanted.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-22 11:21:43 and read 3362 times.



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
Getting rid of capitalism would be of little help - anyone who has lived/worked in non-capitalist countries will certainly attest that cronyism is probably even more prevalent there.

The scale of cronyism and corruption from recent american capitalism way outpaces anything I've heard of from most european countries. I think you are quite wrong in trying to play the "it's worse in other countries" card.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2009-10-22 11:36:50 and read 3343 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 14):
The scale of cronyism and corruption from recent american capitalism way outpaces anything I've heard of from most european countries. I think you are quite wrong in trying to play the "it's worse in other countries" card.

My point (and I probably did not state it well) is that cronyism and corruption are not a function of capitalism/socialism, but rather of the social and moral stability and development of a country. European countries, particularly western europe, would rate rather high in that sense, which is why you won't see to much corruption there.

In my opinion, American society is not so stable and developed. We have large segments of our population that consider themselves completely separate from everyone else. Our culture is so diverse that everyone seems to work for themselves or for their own group. This is why I find all the political crap, especially politicians treating one racial or cultural group different from everyone else, to be extremely counterproductive. In our rush to embrace "diversity", we have forgotten to see ourselves as American first.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-22 11:41:25 and read 3338 times.



Quoting ATCtower (Reply 11):
Not to sound like an arrogant prick here but what the hell is wrong with capitalism?.

What's wrong with a system based on gluttony and greed and that builds in overhead and inefficiency in the form of profit? That's a tough one all right.

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 11):
Why are we so infatuated with believing capitalism is being selfish?.

Maybe the gluttonous salaries raped by Capitalism's leaders and the bonuses they award themselves from a handout intended to help them shows its real culture?

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 11):
Can capitalism not constitute the spoils of working hard, planning, understanding, and executing the proper lifestyle?

Of course! Living our lives like mice on a turn wheel producing trinkets and earning enough to buy other trinkets that whole industries brainwash us into believing we need them through 24x7 ads is obviously a Good Life.

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 11):
I am sick of hearing people whine about the negative aspects of capitalism and then sit back 'expecting' the perks of it.

I'll bet. Those young airline pilots need to shut the hell up; let the gluttons divide up the pie; we can trust them because they are obviously working hard and executing a proper lifestyle.

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 11):
If you are opposed to capitalism, you should be donating every penny you can get your hands on to those less fortunate than you.

Why? Where does it say this? Why does it have to be one thing or the other? Can't we as rational citizens choose what balance we want?

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 11):
You should not be reading this message as a member of a pay website, and you damn sure should not be shopping at Walmart to save money.

Not sure why the two are equivalent. I would argue that since Walmart essentially exports jobs, americans are ultimately undermining their own interests by going there. But I can't deny that when you're unemployed because your job went overseas, you can make your huge savings earned under capitalism go further by shopping at outfits that possibly contributed to you losing your job in the first case.


I'm bored now...

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: RedFlyer
Posted 2009-10-22 11:53:36 and read 3323 times.

What I find interesting is that behind any label resides human beings who make all the decisions and pull all the levers. Whether it's Capitalism, Socialism, or whatever, it is the people that make the bad decisions and inflict the pain, not the label. That being the case, I fear government far more than I fear some some greedy Wall Street CEO. Government's power can be unbridled and, worse, can be legitimized in the name of the Law. At least where Capitalism is concerned, its excesses can be reigned in. That is rarely true when it comes to Government.

What I also find interesting is all the bitching and moaning about Capitalism's excesses are coming in the midst of a major recession. Where were all the whiners when most were making money from Wall Street's largesse? Would the audiences have been as big (not that they have been big) at Michael Moore's movie had he made it in the last economic expansion period? Would he have even bothered to make it then? Probably not. It appears Mr. Moore is playing the Capitalist's game, which is to provide the supply when the demand is high and to personally profit from it.

How ironic.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: ATCtower
Posted 2009-10-22 12:03:26 and read 3313 times.

I will try to keep you interested then  Smile

Quoting Avent (Reply 16):
What's wrong with a system based on gluttony and greed and that builds in overhead and inefficiency in the form of profit? That's a tough one all right.



Quoting Avent (Reply 16):
Maybe the gluttonous salaries raped by Capitalism's leaders and the bonuses they award themselves from a handout intended to help them shows its real culture?



Quoting Avent (Reply 16):
Of course! Living our lives like mice on a turn wheel producing trinkets and earning enough to buy other trinkets that whole industries brainwash us into believing we need them through 24x7 ads is obviously a Good Life.



Quoting Avent (Reply 16):
I'll bet. Those young airline pilots need to shut the hell up; let the gluttons divide up the pie; we can trust them because they are obviously working hard and executing a proper lifestyle.



Quoting Avent (Reply 16):
Why? Where does it say this? Why does it have to be one thing or the other? Can't we as rational citizens choose what balance we want?



Quoting Avent (Reply 16):
Not sure why the two are equivalent. I would argue that since Walmart essentially exports jobs, americans are ultimately undermining their own interests by going there. But I can't deny that when you're unemployed because your job went overseas, you can make your huge savings earned under capitalism go further by shopping at outfits that possibly contributed to you losing your job in the first case.

The root meaning of gluttony is excess. Who shall be the judge of excess? Should that be the homeless guy with a drinking problem or Warren Buffet? I certainly live a lifestyle extravagant to one, but not the other. If one works hard what is wrong with rewarding it? Before you jump the gun and name the man given the $100 million bonus, let me point something out. He made billions for Citi they would not have had without his contribution and/or dedication. Because of him hundreds of people made modest/honest salaries working for his division. A great number of people owe their livelihood and the survival of their families to him. Yes, according to my lifestyle $100m is excessive and gluttonous, but given the work performed and the performance his division attained, perhaps not.

Americans certainly are undermining ourselves shopping at Walmart. We do so because of the lower prices and abundant opportunity for selection of goods. In a communist/socialist world, their prices would be equal to that of the ma & pa shops they are putting out of business. Our capitalism, while undermining, drives the needs for low cost ways of doing life.

My $.02

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Varigb707
Posted 2009-10-22 12:15:10 and read 3299 times.

Good movie. An opportunity for anyone who'll be interested to learn what Wall Street is all about.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-22 12:27:05 and read 3294 times.



Quoting ATCtower (Reply 18):
The root meaning of gluttony is excess. Who shall be the judge of excess? Should that be the homeless guy with a drinking problem or Warren Buffet? I certainly live a lifestyle extravagant to one, but not the other. If one works hard what is wrong with rewarding it? Before you jump the gun and name the man given the $100 million bonus, let me point something out. He made billions for Citi they would not have had without his contribution and/or dedication. Because of him hundreds of people made modest/honest salaries working for his division. A great number of people owe their livelihood and the survival of their families to him. Yes, according to my lifestyle $100m is excessive and gluttonous, but given the work performed and the performance his division attained, perhaps not.

I understand this argument and while I think it's a somewhat reasonable one in an abstract sense, it is no better than a similar one advanced for Communism that might say 'to each according to their needs,' since the obvious response (along your lines) would be how do we determine what appropriate needs are.

But aside from the difficulty in making such assessments, Capitalism is still a system based on greed and gluttony, no matter how one tries to dress it up, and it begs moral and philosphpical questions like is that really the best we can come up with? Answers to this kind of question usually invoke some softening mechanisms such as healthcare and welfare which to my mind go a long way.

Another very serious flaw in Capitalism is that it is not intended to directly serve society's needs. Yes competition can drive down prices and improve products, but whenever there's an ability to bleed the consumer (e.g. Microsoft,) capitalists will take it, or use their wealth to impress favorable terms from government. So while there are real benefits, they are in some ways forced and interfere with the primary concern - creating excess for a few by taking advantage of opportunities society offers them,

We have out of control Capitalism as measured by the existence of extreme wealth polarization. This is extremely dangerous to free societies since this degree of excess gives disproportionate influence. In the past this was managed by having extreme taxation rates (so you only take home 1 million of every 10 million you make...) but this has been undermined with the tax-giveaways to the wealthy.

I don't really care if someone is a glutton and has 5 sports cars since I'm not opposed to people getting wealthy, but I do have serious reservations about a system that permits so much gluttony when the country is so financially stressed, and when that gluttonous wealth works overtime to undermine and prevent the little guy getting a piece of the pice through Universal Health Care and other such programs.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Flanker
Posted 2009-10-22 12:40:04 and read 3282 times.

Can't stand Moore. Such a hypocrite. Bashes capitalism, and yet, that is what has made him wealthy and famous.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Victrola
Posted 2009-10-22 15:16:54 and read 3231 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 20):
Another very serious flaw in Capitalism is that it is not intended to directly serve society's needs. Yes competition can drive down prices and improve products, but whenever there's an ability to bleed the consumer (e.g. Microsoft,) capitalists will take it, or use their wealth to impress favorable terms from government. So while there are real benefits, they are in some ways forced and interfere with the primary concern - creating excess for a few by taking advantage of opportunities society offers them,

You don't really understand what capitalism is. Capitalism is an economic system where each individual is free to make his own economic choices. It recognizes that each individual has a tendency to try to maximize his own personal profit. One's personal greed is restrained by the fact that every other individal is also trying to maximize his own personal profit.( You can't sell that widget for whatever price you want, because the more money you want, the higher the probability that someone else will sell cheaper than you.) In a truly capitalistic system, nobody is able to make an excessive profit, because if the profit is excessive, it will just attract other suppliers of the product or service into the market and the price will come down to where supply meets demand.

Excessive profits are possible only in systems where market forces are thwarted by market restraints. For example, if some firm is given an exclusive right to sell a product or service.

Your example where use wealth to get favorable terms from the government is not free market capitalism. Your point, however does bring up the fact that a capitalist system can only function within a framework of the rule of law, where government plays the roll of the disinterested referee.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: FlyDeltaJets87
Posted 2009-10-22 15:37:05 and read 3224 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 12):
How so? Can you explain this for us? Where is it etched in stone that there can be no profit without Capitalism?

Isn't that the very definition of capitalism? Selling products, goods, and services for a profit? Socialism involves selling goods and services and then saying "well Company A didn't sell as much as Company B so we're going to give company A some of Company B's profit".

Quoting Avent (Reply 16):
What's wrong with a system based on gluttony and greed and that builds in overhead and inefficiency in the form of profit? That's a tough one all right.

Capitalism likes inefficiency? That's a new one to me. Please elaborate for us. I'm unaware of this.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
Getting rid of capitalism would be of little help - anyone who has lived/worked in non-capitalist countries will certainly attest that cronyism is probably even more prevalent there

 checkmark 



My take on socialism: In a college class, there's 100 students who take a test. 10 get an A. 20 get a B. 40 get a C. 20 get a D. 10 get an F. The teacher then shares the grades among the class so "no one fails" and "no one is more successful than anyone else. We all succeeded", and all 100 students are given the class average of a C. Life may seem unfair. Some students have to study their ass off to get a C while some of those who got the A may not have had to study at all and then there are others who just will never get it and get the Ds and Fs, Why would it be the responsibility of those who get the As and Bs to carry the weight of those who got the Ds and Fs? And of course, there may even be one or two who get an A because they cheated but those do not encompass everyone who got the A cheated and those who cheated, if caught, will have to face the consequences.

Now you may say "Have you ever gotten an A by climbing over the backs of others?" The answer is in fact, yes. Let's say I help a friend who is really struggling in the class study for the test and they manage to do well enough to get a C. At the same time, I am helping myself by studying and I manage to achieve an A.

Quoting Varigb707 (Reply 19):
Good movie. An opportunity for anyone who'll be interested to learn what Wall Street is all about.

Is someone actually going to convince me that a socialist government would be any better or less corrupt? At least I can choose whether or not to give my money to these companies. I have no choice in paying my taxes to the government that will redistribute them.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-22 15:42:37 and read 3216 times.



Quoting Victrola (Reply 22):
You don't really understand what capitalism is. Capitalism is an economic system where each individual is free to make his own economic choices. It recognizes that each individual has a tendency to try to maximize his own personal profit. One's personal greed is restrained by the fact that every other individal is also trying to maximize his own personal profit.( You can't sell that widget for whatever price you want, because the more money you want, the higher the probability that someone else will sell cheaper than you.) In a truly capitalistic system, nobody is able to make an excessive profit, because if the profit is excessive, it will just attract other suppliers of the product or service into the market and the price will come down to where supply meets demand.

I agree - in theory; but in practice, it does give rise to severe extremes, and I don't buy the explain-it-all answer that it's not 'true' capitalism when abuses occur as if there has ever been a point where there were no abuses, nor do I accept the premise we should just sit idly by and watch the roller coaster from boom to bust and pat ourselves on the back that it's self regulating - as people are evicted from their homes.

So, the truly Capitalistic system is a dangerous myth at best since those with deep pockets will always work to rig the game in their favor. This can happen in other systems, but my point is Capitalism seems to be more naively embraced than it deserves.

Quoting Victrola (Reply 22):
Your example where use wealth to get favorable terms from the government is not free market capitalism. Your point, however does bring up the fact that a capitalist system can only function within a framework of the rule of law, where government plays the roll of the disinterested referee.

Indeed.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-22 17:17:55 and read 3185 times.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 23):
Isn't that the very definition of capitalism? Selling products, goods, and services for a profit? Socialism involves selling goods and services and then saying "well Company A didn't sell as much as Company B so we're going to give company A some of Company B's profit".

Apparently it is not the definition of Capitalism since trade occurs in socialist and communist countries also.

I'm not going to defend hypotheticals about A giving B as being a consequence of socialism. I think either, in their pure form, is too extreme and that we can choose a balance.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 23):
My take on socialism: In a college class, there's 100 students who take a test. 10 get an A. 20 get a B. 40 get a C. 20 get a D. 10 get an F. The teacher then shares the grades among the class so "no one fails" and "no one is more successful than anyone else. We all succeeded", and all 100 students are given the class average of a C.

So as long as some can have yachts and other starve it's all good and we shouldn't strive as a society to have the tide raise us all up?

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 23):
Now you may say "Have you ever gotten an A by climbing over the backs of others?" The answer is in fact, yes. Let's say I help a friend who is really struggling in the class study for the test and they manage to do well enough to get a C. At the same time, I am helping myself by studying and I manage to achieve an A.

I can also contrive scenarios: how about the factory owner who's kids go to private school because the workers are bidding down their wages as their jobs are going overseas. These kids are making it on the backs of the worker's children who go to the local poorly funded school.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-22 18:30:40 and read 3219 times.



Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 7):
I saw it on special engagement, and being a Republican, I have to say, some of the things he said where quite true, even if I hate his Socialist ideas.

Good for you, Democrats, Republicans can learn from this movie, we are being screwed. We are nothing compared to the industrial power we were. Given away because of greed, back room deals. and the seeking of power by both sides of the aisle. It is them against us. the most important thing Michael said in that movie, we have the power, the vote, if only we had the brains to use it to defeat them, both sides and their cronies.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-22 18:48:06 and read 3202 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 14):
The scale of cronyism and corruption from recent american capitalism way outpaces anything I've heard of from most european countries. I think you are quite wrong in trying to play the "it's worse in other countries" card.

We have the most "over the top" Capitalism in the world. Perverted, immoral.

Quoting Avent (Reply 16):
Not sure why the two are equivalent. I would argue that since Walmart essentially exports jobs, americans are ultimately undermining their own interests by going there. But I can't deny that when you're unemployed because your job went overseas, you can make your huge savings earned under capitalism go further by shopping at outfits that possibly contributed to you losing your job in the first case.

Good points. When you watch the movie, it is like a collective, or national suicide pact. We drink the Kool Ade. We watch the worst there is, Walmart with their ads "Shop Walmart, live better", now that is ironic to say the least. We know what they have done to the US and yet, most cannot stay away. National Suicide. We let a company destroy us and yet we shop there and make them richer. Not I, by the way.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-22 18:57:15 and read 3199 times.



Quoting Victrola (Reply 22):
You don't really understand what capitalism is. Capitalism is an economic system where each individual is free to make his own economic choices. It recognizes that each individual has a tendency to try to maximize his own personal profit. One's personal greed is restrained by the fact that every other individal is also trying to maximize his own personal profit.( You can't sell that widget for whatever price you want, because the more money you want, the higher the probability that someone else will sell cheaper than you.) In a truly capitalistic system, nobody is able to make an excessive profit, because if the profit is excessive, it will just attract other suppliers of the product or service into the market and the price will come down to where supply meets demand.

Excessive profits are possible only in systems where market forces are thwarted by market restraints. For example, if some firm is given an exclusive right to sell a product or service.

Your example where use wealth to get favorable terms from the government is not free market capitalism. Your point, however does bring up the fact that a capitalist system can only function within a framework of the rule of law, where government plays the roll of the disinterested referee.

The Kool Ade still works. I suggest one should watch the movie. Excess profits?, excess everything, the system is currupted from the top on down, it has currupted our political system, from our congress to our local government. It is beyond a rational business model in the finance world. It is approaching the Roman Empire, and we know what happened to the Roman Empire.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-22 19:02:39 and read 3191 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 25):
can also contrive scenarios: how about the factory owner who's kids go to private school because the workers are bidding down their wages as their jobs are going overseas. These kids are making it on the backs of the worker's children who go to the local poorly funded school.

 checkmark   checkmark 


It seems fair to them, the Capitalists. It might have to do with how the power structure is maintained. Yes folks, we do have have a power structure and it is not run by unions or workers trust me.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-10-22 19:24:32 and read 3192 times.

Quoting Avent (Reply 24):
my point is Capitalism seems to be more naively embraced than it deserves.

Let me introduce you to failure:

Quote:
Mission

The Federal Reserve System is the central bank of the United States. It was founded by Congress in 1913 to provide the nation with a safer, more flexible, and more stable monetary and financial system. Over the years, its role in banking and the economy has expanded.

Today, the Federal Reserve's duties fall into four general areas:

* conducting the nation's monetary policy by influencing the monetary and credit conditions in the economy in pursuit of maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates
* supervising and regulating banking institutions to ensure the safety and soundness of the nation's banking and financial system and to protect the credit rights of consumers
* maintaining the stability of the financial system and containing systemic risk that may arise in financial markets
* providing financial services to depository institutions, the U.S. government, and foreign official institutions, including playing a major role in operating the nation's payments system

http://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/mission.htm

Since then, we've had the Great Depression, numerous smaller crisis (though not insignificant), and this one. There are so many things wrong with what these guys do it's not even funny. And most people don't know anything about the Federal Reserve.

The problem is not capitalism, it's flawed institutions like the Fed who drop interest rates to create credit bubbles and win re-election for the people who appoint them. Yes, it's people in the market that take out the loans and make investments, which then go bad. But they do so based on fake, manipulated rates and economic outlooks.

Markets fluctuate, but they don't go into roller coasters rides without really bad policies. Monetary policy is a topic of debate in Latin American elections because of our abysmal past experiences, but unheard of in American politics. This has to and is going to change.

Aside from being a totally crony system of revolving doors and bailing out of connected friends like we see in Goldman Sachs and other institutions.

[Edited 2009-10-22 19:26:58]

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-22 19:25:59 and read 3192 times.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 5):
Even with bad laws, there still exist a basic morality that many of the purblind supporters of the free market trumpet so loudly. So bad laws do not mean you MUST act dishonestly. I look forward to another MM expose. This one is needed just as much as the others. Just hope it has more effect than Bowling for Columbine did.

 checkmark   checkmark 

If there is a higher power, and Heaven and Hell do await. I fear the all Pure Capitalists are taking the elevator down. Morality? They are devoid of any. Will they buy a stairway to heaven? You know, giving to charity while screwing everybody bloody. I do not think so. If they can, damm! I have wasted my life being good.  Smile

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: FlyDeltaJets87
Posted 2009-10-22 19:42:30 and read 3188 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 25):
So as long as some can have yachts and other starve it's all good and we shouldn't strive as a society to have the tide raise us all up?

How much extra money from your own personal income are YOU donating to help those who are less fortunate? Why should I be forced to pay for others if I've worked hard to get where I am?

Quoting Avent (Reply 25):
These kids are making it on the backs of the worker's children who go to the local poorly funded school.

My dad was a full-bird Colonel in the Air Force (O-6) and my mom was a Lieutenant Colonel in the Air Force (O-5). You can go look up the payscales for those two ranks, and yet I still went to one of those "poorly funded public schools", while my aunt who is a teacher in the Cincinnati area sent both of her kids to a private Catholic school, so I'm not going to buy this "the rich go to private schools while the poor go to poorly funded public schools" crap. The only reason I'm going to a private university now is because the Air Force is footing the bill through ROTC. If I wasn't on the ROTC scholarship, I'd leave and go somewhere else - one of the state colleges back home in North Carolina.

Quoting Avent (Reply 25):
how about the factory owner who's kids go to private school because the workers are bidding down their wages as their jobs are going overseas

North Carolina watched both its furniture and textile market go overseas over the last few decades, but North Carolina chose to adapt and now has new industry in the state. Banking and Finance is growing in the Charlotte area while Medical Research is growing in the Raleigh/Durham area. Many of the tobacco farms are now wineries. Pittsburgh is another city that saw its primary industry head overseas and is now rebounding. So it's up to the people of the state to invest in their own future or at least elect representatives who will work to bring new industry into the state.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-22 19:48:36 and read 3185 times.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 30):
Aside from being a totally crony system of revolving doors and bailing out of connected friends like we see in Goldman Sachs and other institutions.

My Goodness! that is a statement, I can agree with. I think I felt the earth shake. Did you also see MM's movie?  Smile

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Dc9northwest
Posted 2009-10-22 20:46:12 and read 3162 times.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 23):
In a college class, there's 100 students who take a test. 10 get an A. 20 get a B. 40 get a C. 20 get a D. 10 get an F.

Your point is quite good, you illustrated theoretical communism (given, the terms I use are probably not the actual terms). Here's practical communism and why it fails. Same premise as above.

Of those one hundred students:
One is the "president's" son. He got a B. Because he's the president's son, he gets a 100 anyway, for the simple reason that he's the president's son.

Ten of those students are sons/daughters of high-ranking members of the party. They get curved up. The one guy who got an A gets his A, 95%, the two with B's get 90% (A), the four C's become 85% (B), two Ds become low Bs (80%) and the F gets curved to a C.

So far: 4As, 6Bs, 1C.

Thirty-nine are sons/daughters of people with connections to high members of the party. A's stay A's, Bs stay Bs, Cs become Bs, Ds become Cs, Fs become Ds.

So far: 8As, 29Bs, 9Cs, 4Ds

Thirty-nine have no connections whatsoever:
As become Bs, Bs become Cs, Cs stay Cs, Ds stay Ds and Fs go to Fs.

Then you have: 8A's, 33B's, 33C's, 13D's, 4 F's

Ten are sons/daughter of quiet dissidents, but known to the government:
1A and 2Bs become C's, 4Cs become D's, and D's and F's go to F.

Then you have: 8As, 33Bs, 36Cs, 17Ds, 5F's

Then you have the son of the most outspoken dissident in the country, He got a B, same score as the president's son. But his curves to an F.

In this way, Communist governments can claim:

1) Harder classes-->More appropriate studies, because they have fewer A's
2) Brighter students, as the average is higher
3) Less people failing university classes.

Hence claiming the overall better system... But when you look at it, the work doesn't reflect what's truly going on: Grades are assigned not by the quality of the work, but by the relation to the government. It's not fair, is it?

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2009-10-22 20:57:41 and read 3149 times.

One thing that completely bothers me about Moore's view is that how come he doesn't attack one issue that could do TREMENDOUS good if fixed: the income tax system.

Because by definition income taxes discourage personal savings and capital investment, small wonder why American citizens and businesses have sent some US$15 TRILLION in liquid assets out of the US financial system for tax avoidance purposes. This is US$15 trillion that if returned to the US financial system would provide a gigantic liquidity boost so necessary to open new loans and lines of credit for economic recovery and expansion. Also, businesses are moving corporate headquarter and manufacturing operations out of the USA, primarily done for tax reduction reasons.

In short, we need to MASSIVELY overhaul our taxation system so it encourages personal savings and capital investment staying in the USA. That would mean banks will be properly capitalized with more customer money sitting in American banks and American companies will have more investors buying stocks and bonds issued by the companies. Whether by simplifying the current tax code (with more emphasis on encouraging personal savings and capital investment staying in the USA), going to a 4-6% no-deductions flat income tax, or phasing out income taxes altogether in favor of a true consumption tax like FairTax, anything to stop capital flight out of the USA would in the long run help in our economic recovery and eventual growth.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Pyrex
Posted 2009-10-22 21:21:56 and read 3138 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 16):
What's wrong with a system based on gluttony and greed and that builds in overhead and inefficiency in the form of profit? That's a tough one all right.

Yeah, profit definitely equals inneficiency. Because everyone knows government-run "not-for-profit" (i.e., for-loss) things are oh so efficient. Plus, I am sure people will be tripping over themselves to invest in anything knowing there is no chance to ever make a profit on anything.

Quoting Avent (Reply 16):
Of course! Living our lives like mice on a turn wheel producing trinkets and earning enough to buy other trinkets that whole industries brainwash us into believing we need them through 24x7 ads is obviously a Good Life.

Simple, you don't want that crap you just make enough money to buy the crap you want. But that is the whole concept of freedom you have problem with. But you will remove my leopard-print snuggie blanket from my cold, dead, vegetating-in-front-of-the-TV body.

Quoting Avent (Reply 16):

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 11):
If you are opposed to capitalism, you should be donating every penny you can get your hands on to those less fortunate than you.

Why? Where does it say this? Why does it have to be one thing or the other?

You. You just said profit = inneficiency. Then why don't you donate all your profit (i.e. the money you have left over in your bank account at the end of the month/year) to someone else? I can give you my address for a check, if you want.

Funny thing, though - whenever a big-time rich democrat dies he gives his philantropic contributions to a charitable estate, not straight to the government, where it would be "allocated more efficiently". I wonder why that is...

Quoting Avent (Reply 20):
Capitalism is still a system based on greed and gluttony, no matter how one tries to dress it up, and it begs moral and philosphpical questions like is that really the best we can come up with?

Capitalism is basically applied freedom, simple as that. You simply cannot have a democracy without it. If you can think of a better system, though, please feel free to go try it out in Venezuela or some place like that and then come back and report to us how it went.

Quoting Avent (Reply 25):
as their jobs are going overseas.

"Their" jobs? Are they paying themselves, by any chance? Then it's not really "their" jobs, is it? That sense of entitlement is what causes a lot of problems.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Victrola
Posted 2009-10-23 08:48:34 and read 3088 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 25):
I can also contrive scenarios: how about the factory owner who's kids go to private school because the workers are bidding down their wages as their jobs are going overseas. These kids are making it on the backs of the worker's children who go to the local poorly funded school.

Once again, you fail to understand free markets. Every buyer and seller in a free market has the right to seek out the best deal he can get. Wages are set by the market. Employers are in competition with each other to hire workers. If one firms salary offer is not high enough workers will simply go elsewhere where they can get the best deal. If some worker wants too much, he loses out to another worker who is willing to work for less. That is his right. If you can't make a salary you are content with, it is up to you to improve your skills set to command more money in the market.

[quote=WarRI1,reply=28]The Kool Ade still works. I suggest one should watch the movie. Excess profits?,

Yes the koolaid still works. In spite of the complete economic failures of every anti capitalist economic experiment of the last century., people still continue their futile attempts to build a socialist paradise.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-23 10:16:08 and read 3073 times.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 32):
How much extra money from your own personal income are YOU donating to help those who are less fortunate? Why should I be forced to pay for others if I've worked hard to get where I am?

Go work your butt off on a desert island without others to provide safety and labor, and without resources, and let us know how much wealth you accumulated; the point being that you do not earn in isolation, and your ability to earn depends on the framework and environment provided by society, so you do have an obligation to pay to support society's operations. While it is great that you get ahead through hard work, there are many who work hard that do not get ahead and are trapped in poverty.

Put another way, why don't we take your argument to its logical conclusion and abandon all welfare and social safetynet structures? I would argue that while you would benefit in the short term, America would quickly drift towards the pre-revolutionary mindset it was in around the time of the depression, and we might not be so lucky a second time in avoiding an outright bloody revolution.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 32):
...so I'm not going to buy this "the rich go to private schools while the poor go to poorly funded public schools" crap

If you want to argue there is no correlation between wealth and access to better education, that's fine.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 32):
The only reason I'm going to a private university now is because the Air Force is footing the bill through ROTC. If I wasn't on the ROTC scholarship, I'd leave and go somewhere else - one of the state colleges back home in North Carolina.

All of which are supported by people who are 'forced' to pay for your education.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 32):
Many of the tobacco farms are now wineries. Pittsburgh is another city that saw its primary industry head overseas and is now rebounding. So it's up to the people of the state to invest in their own future or at least elect representatives who will work to bring new industry into the state.

Yes things change and yes this is good, but Capitalism is not a necessary requirement to bring in industry. Socialist countries have industries also.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-23 10:20:32 and read 3071 times.



Quoting RayChuang (Reply 35):
going to a 4-6% no-deductions flat income tax, or phasing out income taxes altogether in favor of a true consumption tax like FairTax, anything to stop capital flight out of the USA would in the long run help in our economic recovery and eventual growth.

So the executive who earns $100,000,000 takes home $96,000,000 and the McDonalds burger flipper who make $10,000 takes home $9600.

Sounds fair.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-23 10:43:15 and read 3062 times.



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 36):
Yeah, profit definitely equals inneficiency. Because everyone knows government-run "not-for-profit" (i.e., for-loss) things are oh so efficient. Plus, I am sure people will be tripping over themselves to invest in anything knowing there is no chance to ever make a profit on anything.

From the perspective of distributing resources, profit is most certainly an inefficiency. It is an arbitrary overhead the buyer has to pay over and beyond the cost of making the product. Capitalism tries to manage this inefficiency through free market competition.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 36):
Simple, you don't want that crap you just make enough money to buy the crap you want. But that is the whole concept of freedom you have problem with. But you will remove my leopard-print snuggie blanket from my cold, dead, vegetating-in-front-of-the-TV body.

Yes, to a degree, but there is the issue of the incessant bombardment we experience extolling us to consume and buy and have certain consumer habits. To me this is all overheated and destructive, but that's a separate discussion.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 36):
Then why don't you donate all your profit (i.e. the money you have left over in your bank account at the end of the month/year) to someone else? I can give you my address for a check, if you want.

Because, as I already said, it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. Also, I pay taxes for the general good, and make small additional donations, but there's not much left over at the end of the year, sadly.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 36):
Capitalism is basically applied freedom, simple as that. You simply cannot have a democracy without it.

Nonsense. There are plenty of democratic socialistic countries, and wealth polarization, whether through capitalism or not, is always destructive towards freedom.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 36):
"Their" jobs? Are they paying themselves, by any chance? Then it's not really "their" jobs, is it? That sense of entitlement is what causes a lot of problems.

That's a pretty novel argument indeed. So the unemployed really have no cause for complaint since to do so would be expressing a sense of entitlement. Hmmmm.. I suppose the hungery are being obnoxious when begging for food, since that's a sense of entitlement on their part.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-23 10:50:58 and read 3057 times.



Quoting Victrola (Reply 37):
Once again, you fail to understand free markets. Every buyer and seller in a free market has the right to seek out the best deal he can get. Wages are set by the market. Employers are in competition with each other to hire workers. If one firms salary offer is not high enough workers will simply go elsewhere where they can get the best deal. If some worker wants too much, he loses out to another worker who is willing to work for less. That is his right. If you can't make a salary you are content with, it is up to you to improve your skills set to command more money in the market

This mythology assumes there are enough jobs available and access to the means to train for them to give the worker the choice to take his services elsewhere. It is not universally true that employers are in competition with each other to hire workers since real wages are decling and hence they are bidding down salaries.

And was it Balzac who said something like: both rich and poor are free to sleep under a bridge on a winter's night. One's choices and freedoms are very dependend one's wealth.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-23 10:53:41 and read 3059 times.



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 36):
Their" jobs? Are they paying themselves, by any chance? Then it's not really "their" jobs, is it? That sense of entitlement is what causes a lot of problems.

Semantics once again, if you worked in a job, and that job was lost to outsourcing, or for any other reason, it was your job, it was their job, now it is sombody elses job. Sense of entitlement, laughable. Let us drink a toast to that with the Kool Ade.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-10-23 10:57:18 and read 3063 times.

Quoting Avent (Reply 40):
From the perspective of distributing resources, profit is most certainly an inefficiency. It is an arbitrary overhead the buyer has to pay over and beyond the cost of making the product.

Your airports are run on a non-profit basis. They are also EXTREMELY inneficient. Copious amounts of fuel is wasted. Endless waste in time.

Profit is an integral part of efficiency. The cost to produce something does not say anything about the scarcity of that resource, and thus how "strictly" it needs to be allocated. Profit is how that difference is reconciled.

If you pass a law that gasoline has to be sold on a cost basis, we will start burning gas like there is no tomorrow. No airline is going to buy a new aircraft based on how much less fuel it burns. A lot of inneficiencies will arise.

[Edited 2009-10-23 11:21:03]

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: ATCtower
Posted 2009-10-23 11:16:08 and read 3045 times.

Quoting Avent--- Nonsense. There are plenty of democratic socialistic countries, and wealth polarization, whether through capitalism or not, is always destructive towards freedom. [quote]

Would you mind naming a few? The ones that come to mind for me are India, Libya, Sri Lanka, Egypt, Burma, Venezuela, Syria, hell I could go on and on.... As a matter of fact, it seems to be a "Democratic Socialist State" you need a half dozen countries that wont speak to you because of your human rights violations. Seems rather destructive toward freedom in my book.

Quoting Avent (Reply 39):
So the executive who earns $100,000,000 takes home $96,000,000 and the McDonalds burger flipper who make $10,000 takes home $9600.

Sounds fair.

Why is it not? Taxing based on income is doing nothing more than punishing/aiding those with more.

Look at it another direction (since this is an aviation forum). Is that no different from saying UA has 100 airplanes and should pay 50% tax because they are so much larger than Midwest who only has 10 airplanes and should only have to pay 5% tax....

The logic is skewed and in no way promotes the free exchange of commerce and certainly does not promote ingenuity. What is promoted is an asymmetrical socialism. I do not buy into the argument that the wealthy will shed a significantly higher portion of their capital and thus should be in a lower tax bracket. I do understand the concept of an equal taxation level notwithstanding income is in its own regard a highly socialist belief, but I find it difficult to punish those who have driven themselves to success in the same regard as rewarding them beyond the attainable level of those not as fortunate.

My $.02

[Edited 2009-10-23 11:25:08]

[Edited 2009-10-23 11:25:59]

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Victrola
Posted 2009-10-23 11:42:06 and read 3031 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 41):
This mythology assumes there are enough jobs available and access to the means to train for them to give the worker the choice to take his services elsewhere. It is not universally true that employers are in competition with each other to hire workers since real wages are decling and hence they are bidding down salaries.

You still don't have the slightest understanding of how a market works.

There is alway a point where supply meets demand where the ammount of jobs available will match the ammound of jobs sought at a some wage level. Sometimes this wage level goes up. Sometimes this wage level goes down.

This is what is called a "market signal" When wages go down in a sector, the market is telling us that too many people are offering their services to the wrong sector of the economy and that they need to look elsewhere or upgrade their skills. Unfortunately there is a glut of unskilled labor in the market.

Your arguement that employers are not in competition with each other because real wages are declining makes no sense whatsoever. Whether real wags are increasing or declining, employers are still in competition for the services of workers. There is a wage where supply will meet demand. If an employer offers less, they will not find a worker, if a worker demands more, they will remain unemployed.

I am still waiting for someone to offer a viable alternative to the free market system so many of you hate, in spite of the fact that it is the most successful economic system in world history.

Please show us your model for your socialist workers paradise.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2009-10-23 13:39:22 and read 3015 times.



Quoting Victrola (Reply 45):
I am still waiting for someone to offer a viable alternative to the free market system so many of you hate, in spite of the fact that it is the most successful economic system in world history.

Free market system is just fine -- only it crashes from time to time in a spectacular fashion. Recently, it has began crashing even grander in a truly worldwide fashion (talk of town is of something called "globalization"). There have been some folks with some beards in the 1800s that have published some literature on the subject.

Quoting Victrola (Reply 45):

Please show us your model for your socialist workers paradise.

Scandinavian "framework economy" in the 1960s -- 1970s -- 1980s?

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-23 14:01:26 and read 3007 times.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
ng Avent (Reply 40):
From the perspective of distributing resources, profit is most certainly an inefficiency. It is an arbitrary overhead the buyer has to pay over and beyond the cost of making the product.

Your airports are run on a non-profit basis. They are also EXTREMELY inneficient. Copious amounts of fuel is wasted. Endless waste in time.

So? I didn't argue that not-for-profit is equivalent to efficiency. I am pointing out there are serious warts behind Capitalism's mythology.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
Profit is an integral part of efficiency. The cost to produce something does not say anything about the scarcity of that resource, and thus how "strictly" it needs to be allocated. Profit is how that difference is reconciled.

The cost to produce plastics (for example) is directly related to the scarcity of oil, so your premise is clearly wrong.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
If you pass a law that gasoline has to be sold on a cost basis, we will start burning gas like there is no tomorrow. No airline is going to buy a new aircraft based on how much less fuel it burns. A lot of inneficiencies will arise

Since oil is a non-renewable and essential resource that is in decline, I wouldn't agree with such a law.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-23 14:16:26 and read 2999 times.



Quoting Victrola (Reply 45):
You still don't have the slightest understanding of how a market works.

There is alway a point where supply meets demand where the ammount of jobs available will match the ammound of jobs sought at a some wage level. Sometimes this wage level goes up. Sometimes this wage level goes down.

This is what is called a "market signal" When wages go down in a sector, the market is telling us that too many people are offering their services to the wrong sector of the economy and that they need to look elsewhere or upgrade their skills. Unfortunately there is a glut of unskilled labor in the market.

Your arguement that employers are not in competition with each other because real wages are declining makes no sense whatsoever. Whether real wags are increasing or declining, employers are still in competition for the services of workers. There is a wage where supply will meet demand. If an employer offers less, they will not find a worker, if a worker demands more, they will remain unemployed.

So what? None of this addresses the mythology that Capitalism is great because workers are supposedly free to take their services elsewhere which in turn implies there are great options for all workers. Your 'market signals' miss the point since there will be market signals in the slave market also but that doesn't make the slave any happier.

The notion that workers can ask for more is interesting since collective bargaining is viewed as an anti-free market approach. So, the bargaining in reality is only to the degree permitted by those with a vested interest in keeping wages low. And if that fails, throw open the gates of the economy to world labor and send the jobs overseas where labor is cheap, and now we have evolved to a point where our overseas labor gets to bid itself down in order for the gluttons to make a profit. But it's all good - our tremendous savings accumulated when we worked will allow us to buy lots of cheap imported plastic trinkets at WallyWorld.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Victrola
Posted 2009-10-23 14:59:31 and read 2984 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 48):
point since there will be market signals in the slave market also but that doesn't make the slave any happier.

Have you ever opened an economics textbook???? If you had you would know that slavery is not a free market activity.

Quoting Avent (Reply 48):
The notion that workers can ask for more is interesting since collective bargaining is viewed as an anti-free market approach. So, the bargaining in reality is only to the degree permitted by those with a vested interest in keeping wages low. And if that fails, throw open the gates of the economy to world labor and send the jobs overseas where labor is

Workers who are unhappy with their wages jump ship and seek greener pastures every day. I've done it myself. Companies often give their better workers raises so that they don't jump ship. I'm sure, however that someone who comes from a union background wouldn't understand the concept of paying workers based upon individual performance.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-23 15:32:26 and read 2972 times.



Quoting Victrola (Reply 49):
Have you ever opened an economics textbook???? If you had you would know that slavery is not a free market activity.

Yes, but my point (which I could have written better) is that market signals could lead us happily down the path to Dickensonian destitution - unless non-free-market forces such as minimum wages help stop the decline.

Quoting Victrola (Reply 49):
Workers who are unhappy with their wages jump ship and seek greener pastures every day. I've done it myself. Companies often give their better workers raises so that they don't jump ship.

True, and this can give rise to CEOs making as much in one hour as an Average Joe does in a year, even as employees are sent to the unemployment line. So I don't buy the notion that it's all good as long as we pander to the young-turks. And don't forget, companies also give ridiculous bonuses (from bailout funds in some cases) so I see no great light to illuminate this path from market signals and supposed merit pay.

Quoting Victrola (Reply 49):
I'm sure, however that someone who comes from a union background wouldn't understand the concept of paying workers based upon individual performance.

Never having been a sweat shop employee, I couldn't really comment further, but such employess would have firsthand experience in performance pay, wouldn't you say?

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-10-23 15:47:40 and read 2962 times.

Quoting Avent (Reply 47):
I am pointing out there are serious warts behind Capitalism's mythology.

No there aren't.

Quoting Avent (Reply 47):

The cost to produce plastics (for example) is directly related to the scarcity of oil, so your premise is clearly wrong.

Only if the oil company was allowed to make a profit. If not, then the price of oil only covers drilling and refining costs.

An easier example to grasp is that it does not cost millions of dollars to paint a Mona Lisa. But it is one of a kind, that is, scarce. So it is priced a lot higher.

The same thing is true with precious metals. There's nothing intrinsically "precious" about them, it's their scarcity that drives their price up.

Quoting Avent (Reply 47):
Since oil is a non-renewable and essential resource that is in decline, I wouldn't agree with such a law.

Good.

[Edited 2009-10-23 15:49:31]

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Victrola
Posted 2009-10-23 16:01:06 and read 2961 times.

According to the Index of Economic Freedom these are the most capitalistic countries in the world:

1) Hong Kong
2) Singapore
3) Australia
4) Ireland
5) New Zealand
6) United States
7) Canada
8) Denmark
9) Switzerland
10) United Kingdom

These are the most un capitalistic counties:

1) North Korea
2) Zimbwabe
3) Cuba
4) Burma
5) Eritria
6) Venezuela
7) Democratic Republic of the Congo
8) Comoros
9) Libya
10) Sao Tome and Principe

Gee, I wonder which group is more successful  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-23 16:28:23 and read 2948 times.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 51):
Only if the oil company was allowed to make a profit. If not, then the price of oil only covers drilling and refining costs.

Not quite; your costs go up because it's harder to find.

Quoting Victrola (Reply 52):
According to the Index of Economic Freedom these are the most capitalistic countries in the world:

1) Hong Kong
...

These are the most un capitalistic counties:

1) North Korea
...

Gee, I wonder which group is more successful

Measured Success depends on the yardsticks used: Which countries have the most heart attacks? Diabetes? Leisure time? financial and medical protections for seniors? Democratic Institutions?

Since some highly socialistic countries made into your top 10, which is interesting in its own right, maybe this list is more about the success of democratic vs non-democratic countries?

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-10-23 16:47:43 and read 2941 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 53):

Not quite; your costs go up because it's harder to find.

Yes, they do, but that's again 100% operation-related costs. It does not tell anyone how much they should value it.

Like I said, if oil was sold without any profit, gasoline would be much cheaper. People would end up consuming it a lot more, which would not be efficient and we would run out of oil very quickly. The pure cost tells us only how much resource it took to produce that oil, not how much we should value it.

Which reminds me, a for profit operation means you get more value out of it than you put in if you turn a profit, which adds value to society. When you make a loss, you consumed more than you produced. If you break-even, you've achieved nothing, except risking actually losing something.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-10-23 16:50:30 and read 2945 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 53):

Since some highly socialistic countries made into your top 10, which is interesting in its own right, maybe this list is more about the success of democratic vs non-democratic countries?

By definition, those top 10 countries are the LEAST socialistic in this planet.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-23 17:46:16 and read 2920 times.



Quoting Victrola (Reply 49):
I'm sure, however that someone who comes from a union background wouldn't understand the concept of paying workers based upon individual performance.

How about banks" surely they are not unionized, never have been. Are you really that naive to think that they pay by performance. I have friends and family who have spent years in banks. they treat you like a drone, they give you raises when they feel like it. They will suspend all raises for the drones without notice. They will shitcan you because you have more years and make more money. They will keep the lower paid and dump the higher paid. What a joke, all this noble sounding bull about hard work. They will dump you like a piece of garbage if it suits their business model. Seniority mean nothing, hard work means nothing, because you are considered as nothing.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-10-23 17:52:24 and read 2918 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 56):
Seniority mean nothing, hard work means nothing, because you are considered as nothing.

Seniority means very little, particularly in areas that experience has limited benefits.

Hard work definitely means a lot, but not to unions, that's for sure. There, seniority is what matters.

As for replacing higher paid workers, well, you price yourself out of the market and that's what happens. You also shouldn't expect ever increasing wages for doing the same job over and over again.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-23 18:08:31 and read 2914 times.

Ahah! it now comes to me, this is not about union, non-union, this comes down to the "Master" theory. I am the Master, I will reward you as I see fit, I will control you as I see fit. I own everything. As MM points out 1% of the population in the US control over 90 % or so of the wealth. If this continues, can yes Masa! be next. to hear these advocates on here, it is coming fast. All this economics 101, and we are still being screwed over more than ever as shown in the movie by MM. I am sure that most of you advocates on here are in the barrel with the rest of us, think about it. I, at least admit I am.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-10-23 18:19:53 and read 2910 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 58):
I am the Master, I will reward you as I see fit, I will control you as I see fit.

That's what you think, of your employer.

"I will demand you reward me as I see fit, I will control you as I see fit"

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-23 18:25:00 and read 2910 times.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 57):
Seniority means very little, particularly in areas that experience has limited benefits.

Utter gibberish, talk about the bank situation, and how many including management are shitcanned, they were promoted by the Gods of management, how can they be wrong.? Oh! I know they were LOWER MANAGEMENT, disposable?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 57):
Hard work definitely means a lot, but not to unions, that's for sure. There, seniority is what matters.

Again, the BANK, not unions, try to respond directly about the bank who is not UNION. Let us admit that management will screw anyone over including non-union management, most of whom promoted by them.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 57):
As for replacing higher paid workers, well, you price yourself out of the market and that's what happens. You also shouldn't expect ever increasing wages for doing the same job over and over again.

Again the BANK, try to address the subject, do not obscure the fact that most people who are non-union do not even ask for a raise, including bank management. they get called in for an evaluation by their Bosses who have long before decided who will get and who will not get a raise and how much, and maybe none at all. Absolutely a copout once again.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-23 18:45:49 and read 2904 times.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 59):

That's what you think, of your employer.



"I will demand you reward me as I see fit, I will control you as I see fit"[/quote]

I had a long and rewarding career, there was give and take on both sides. Now we have this mindless destruction of our economy by the Captains of Industry and the curruption of our system. I would also speak of the mindless defense of this perverted destructive assault on this once mighty country economically.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-10-23 18:50:09 and read 2908 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 60):
Utter gibberish, talk about the bank situation, and how many including management are shitcanned, they were promoted by the Gods of management, how can they be wrong.? Oh! I know they were LOWER MANAGEMENT, disposable?

Firstly, no one is a "God".

Secondly, what did you expect? They went BANKRUPT. And hardly just lower management--look at Bear Sterns. And even if some are operating today, again what did you expect, keeping your job when that job doesn't exist anymore?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 60):
Let us admit that management will screw anyone over including non-union management, most of whom promoted by them.

Employers do NOT set wages. That is set in the competition of labor markets (which includes the unions too). Not under the control of management.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 60):

Again the BANK, try to address the subject, do not obscure the fact that most people who are non-union do not even ask for a raise, including bank management. they get called in for an evaluation by their Bosses who have long before decided who will get and who will not get a raise and how much, and maybe none at all. Absolutely a copout once again.

Not sure I get what you are saying, though I certainly don't see a problem with management picking people for a raise or how much. It's their money after all.

Quoting Avent (Reply 48):
The notion that workers can ask for more is interesting since collective bargaining is viewed as an anti-free market approach.

I just saw this, and that is absolutely false. Not a shred of truth in this.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-23 18:50:20 and read 2905 times.

I forgot to mention in keeping with the thread, that MM, covers it all in his movie. for those who are open minded enough to go see it. I highly recommend it.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: FlyDeltaJets87
Posted 2009-10-23 19:13:53 and read 2901 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 38):
All of which are supported by people who are 'forced' to pay for your education.

And are in turn, are receiving a service. Here in the US, the military has to compete for employees just like the private sector.

Quoting Avent (Reply 38):
Go work your butt off on a desert island without others to provide safety and labor, and without resources, and let us know how much wealth you accumulated; the point being that you do not earn in isolation, and your ability to earn depends on the framework and environment provided by society, so you do have an obligation to pay to support society's operations.

Which I do through A) taxes to the Federal, State, and Local governments already and B) by paying others for the services I cannot provide for myself. If my toilet is broken, I call a plumber because I lack the skills to fix it. Because of the free market system, I can choose which plumber I want to have come over to fix my broken toilet. Pretty simple.

Quoting Avent (Reply 38):
If you want to argue there is no correlation between wealth and access to better education, that's fine.

There's a correlation at the very top, but that's for a very small percent of the population. Contrary to popular belief, not all rich people just burn their money on everything they can. I remember many, many years ago 60 Minutes (or some similar program) doing a segment on millionaires who had just crossed into the millionaire bracket, and many of them drove cars like Ford Escorts and still sent their kids to public schools. They became millionaires because they knew how to invest and spend and save.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 58):
As MM points out 1% of the population in the US control over 90 %

They also pay that percentage or close to it of the tax revenue.

Quoting Avent (Reply 38):
Yes things change and yes this is good, but Capitalism is not a necessary requirement to bring in industry. Socialist countries have industries also.

Which countries have the better industries? The industries that are failing in the US, such as the auto-industry, are failing because they refuse to adapt to capitalism and are losing to the foreign companies like Toyota and Honda that have adapted, even within the US. The companies that have factories in Michigan can't compete when the guy who's sole job is to tighten a few bolts on the assembly line is demanding $20 an hour, plus benefits, while companies like Toyota will go build factories in right-to-work states which aren't as union-friendly or heavy, and they still provide decent wages, while being able to provide higher quality cars at the same, or better prices.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 57):
Hard work definitely means a lot, but not to unions, that's for sure. There, seniority is what matters.

 checkmark 
The airline industry is one of the worst offenders too, followed by civil service in the government.

Quoting Avent (Reply 48):
But it's all good - our tremendous savings accumulated when we worked will allow us to buy lots of cheap imported plastic trinkets at WallyWorld.

No one forces you to shop at Wal-Mart. Different people have different value systems. I choose to pay more to fly Delta over say, Spirit, because I want some level of service when I fly, while my roommate would rather use Spirit because she just wants to get home as cheap as possible. When I bought new golf clubs, I first went to Dick's Sporting Goods to look around. Now because I was a 22 year old, the sales guy didn't give me the time of day when I was trying different brands of woods- what he didn't know is that I had a $2000 check from the airlines to replace my stolen golf clubs. I then went to a custom club professional to get my irons custom made, and we ended up ordering the woods through this guy too, which were just standard, off-the-shelf King Cobra woods - same exact model they had at Dicks. We paid a little more to order the woods through this guy but because he provided batter service than what I received at Dick's, I chose to give him my business instead.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-23 19:24:05 and read 2896 times.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 64):
They also pay that percentage or close to it of the tax revenue.

And why would they not, they own it, surely they must pay taxes on the wealth. They do live fairly well, in spite of the taxes, don't you think? The conservatives mention transfer of wealth, the greatest transfer of wealth has already occurred, and it has all been one way, upwards to the already wealthy. The Republicans sure know how to transfer wealth to themselves, and now they cry about it being reversed, Boo-Hoo!

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Aaron747
Posted 2009-10-23 20:31:26 and read 2887 times.



Quoting Victrola (Reply 52):
1) Hong Kong
2) Singapore
3) Australia
4) Ireland
5) New Zealand
6) United States
7) Canada
8) Denmark
9) Switzerland
10) United Kingdom

Yet somehow our American 'brand' is different. We are the only country in that list without publicly managed and/or insured healthcare.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-23 21:35:16 and read 2872 times.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 55):
By definition, those top 10 countries are the LEAST socialistic in this planet.

Well Ireland is quite socialistic as are most europen countries so this list doesn't pass the 'whiff test.' Furthermore, since this index was produced by a fairly extreme rightwing thinktank (The Heritage Foundation), it doesn't surprise me they'd confuse freedom, democracy, and capitalism.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-23 21:39:59 and read 2872 times.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 62):
Employers do NOT set wages. That is set in the competition of labor markets (which includes the unions too). Not under the control of management.

You forgot to include bonuses and excess salaries employers give to themselves. Kind of muddies up the simple picture you portray.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Baroque
Posted 2009-10-23 21:54:25 and read 2863 times.



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 66):
Yet somehow our American 'brand' is different. We are the only country in that list without publicly managed and/or insured healthcare.



Quoting Avent (Reply 67):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 55):
By definition, those top 10 countries are the LEAST socialistic in this planet.

Well Ireland is quite socialistic as are most European countries so this list doesn't pass the 'whiff test.' Furthermore, since this index was produced by a fairly extreme rightwing thinktank (The Heritage Foundation), it doesn't surprise me they'd confuse freedom, democracy, and capitalism.

 checkmark   checkmark  Funny thing that. Try telling the GofSing that socialist principles have no place in their state.

http://app.mcys.gov.sg/web/corp_spee...zMod=corp&szSubMod=speech&qid=7242

Speech by: Dr Vivian Balakrishnan, Minister for Community Development, Youth and Sports
I am delighted to witness the launch of the Social Enterprise Association. This marks an important milestone in the journey of the social enterprise sector in Singapore. Over the last few years, there has been a constant buzz within the social enterprise sector. In 2007, we saw the completion of the Social Enterprise Committee's landmark report which set in motion several initiatives across the public, private and people sectors. More recently this month, many of you would have been involved or attended events such as the Global Social Innovators Forum organised by the Social Innovation Park, and the International Compact CSR Summit organised by Singapore Compact.

This association will build a platform to bring together social entrepreneurs, social enterprises, academic institutions and businesses. I would like to see the Social Enterprise Association act as a catalyst to strengthen the culture of social entrepreneurship and social enterprises and create innovative solutions for some of our most challenging social and environmental issues.

Social enterprises are revenue-generating businesses. They are not charities and should not be dependent on charitable donations. We also expect social enterprises to compete fairly with other businesses in the marketplace. Hence, a passion for social causes alone is not enough. The key ingredients of any successful business - financial discipline and commercial creativity - are critical to establishing good social enterprises. However, unlike normal businesses, successful social enterprises ultimately pursue a social cause instead of merely returns to shareholders.


Bloody communists!!!

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-23 22:19:35 and read 2863 times.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 64):
Quoting Avent (Reply 38):
All of which are supported by people who are 'forced' to pay for your education.

And are in turn, are receiving a service. Here in the US, the military has to compete for employees just like the private sector.

It doesn't matter. You were the one objecting to being forced to pay for others and now it turns out you are benefiting from others being forced to pay for you.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 64):
Quoting Avent (Reply 38):
Go work your butt off on a desert island without others to provide safety and labor, and without resources, and let us know how much wealth you accumulated; the point being that you do not earn in isolation, and your ability to earn depends on the framework and environment provided by society, so you do have an obligation to pay to support society's operations.

Which I do through A) taxes to the Federal, State, and Local governments already and B) by paying others for the services I cannot provide for myself. If my toilet is broken, I call a plumber because I lack the skills to fix it. Because of the free market system, I can choose which plumber I want to have come over to fix my broken toilet. Pretty simple.

This is non-responsive. I was pointing out why there was an obligation since you asked why you should be forced to pay for others.

All this does is say you fulfill a coerced obligation with some random irrelevant free market stuff thrown in for good measure. It does not address my argument why that obligation you object to is legitimate.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 64):
Quoting Avent (Reply 38):
If you want to argue there is no correlation between wealth and access to better education, that's fine.

There's a correlation at the very top, but that's for a very small percent of the population. Contrary to popular belief, not all rich people just burn their money on everything they can. I remember many, many years ago 60 Minutes (or some similar program) doing a segment on millionaires who had just crossed into the millionaire bracket, and many of them drove cars like Ford Escorts and still sent their kids to public schools. They became millionaires because they knew how to invest and spend and save.

Well, if it was only at the top, that would only re-enforce the assertion of wealth producing greater education opportunities. However, it is not just at the top; wealthy suburbs support better schools than rural poorer ones, and resistance to taxation undermines the government's ability to offer a level playing field to future cizens, and this undermines the notion we are all created equal and we all have comparable opportunities for improvement. The rest of your comments about how frugal millionaires are is irrelevent.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 64):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 58):
As MM points out 1% of the population in the US control over 90 %

They also pay that percentage or close to it of the tax revenue.

Not true at all. Typically the top 5% only pay about 20% AGI. Look at Table 8 of:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/250.html

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 64):
Quoting Avent (Reply 48):
But it's all good - our tremendous savings accumulated when we worked will allow us to buy lots of cheap imported plastic trinkets at WallyWorld.

No one forces you to shop at Wal-Mart. Different people have different value systems. ...

The issue is not whether Wallyworld has great value, but the lunacy of sending jobs overseas through supporting outfits like them that are little more than an outlet for chinese industry that doesn't even to pretend to play by fair market rules.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: FlyDeltaJets87
Posted 2009-10-24 11:01:22 and read 2817 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 70):
It doesn't matter. You were the one objecting to being forced to pay for others and now it turns out you are benefiting from others being forced to pay for you.

The Federal Government is REQUIRED to provide for a national defense. It says so in the Constitution. It is NOT REQUIRED to redistribute wealth or provide income.

Quoting Avent (Reply 70):

Not true at all. Typically the top 5% only pay about 20% AGI. Look at Table 8 of:

You don't know how to use your own table that you provide.
You and I are on different pages. You looked up what percent of their own personal income they pay to the federal government. I was referring to what percent the Top 1% pay of all income tax collected. If you look at this link, from the same site you use, you'll see the Top 1%'s share of the federal income revenue for 2005 was 39% while the Top 5% paid nearly 60% of all federal income tax taken in. The bottom 50% paid only 3% of the total federal income tax collected. My initial point was a slight exaggeration but not far off from the actual facts.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/ff104.pdf

Quoting Avent (Reply 70):
The issue is not whether Wallyworld has great value, but the lunacy of sending jobs overseas through supporting outfits like them that are little more than an outlet for chinese industry that doesn't even to pretend to play by fair market rules.

Not fair as defined by you or by the law? If you don't like Wal-Marts practices, vote with your wallet and shop elsewhere. But if you shop at Wal-Mart and take advantage of the "great value", then you are only encouraging them to continue the practice.

Quoting Avent (Reply 70):
Well, if it was only at the top, that would only re-enforce the assertion of wealth producing greater education opportunities. However, it is not just at the top; wealthy suburbs support better schools than rural poorer ones, and resistance to taxation undermines the government's ability to offer a level playing field to future cizens, and this undermines the notion we are all created equal and we all have comparable opportunities for improvement. The rest of your comments about how frugal millionaires are is irrelevent.

Then you want to explain why one of my good friends from high school (the same "poorly funded public school" that I went to), who came from a middle-of-the-road income family is now going to Yale University?  scratchchin  Another person from my high school in the same income bracket as my friend at Yale went to Columbia. Care to explain that one as well?

Quoting Avent (Reply 70):
It does not address my argument why that obligation you object to is legitimate.

You still failed to show how socialism would change the situation on the deserted island. In the situation you gave, neither socialism or capitalism would work, so I don't know what your point is or was.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-10-24 11:12:44 and read 2814 times.

Quoting Avent (Reply 67):
Well Ireland is quite socialistic as are most europen countries so this list doesn't pass the 'whiff test.' Furthermore, since this index was produced by a fairly extreme rightwing thinktank (The Heritage Foundation), it doesn't surprise me they'd confuse freedom, democracy, and capitalism.

It quite simply does not make a difference! Those are the ten LEAST socialist countries in the planet, according to their measure. They do NOT say they are perfectly capitalistic or perfectly communistic. And the rank IS NOT a measure of "success" liek you've said before, it measures economic freedom!!!

And yes, there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO confusion: capitalism is your right and freedom to keep or exchange your property as you see fit.*

And what makes you think that Ireland is necessarily more socialistic than the US? Just because they have national health care? There are other policies that can account for difference, you know.

Quoting Avent (Reply 68):
You forgot to include bonuses and excess salaries employers give to themselves. Kind of muddies up the simple picture you portray.

Uh oh, with approval of boards and shareholders. If that doesn't happen, then you have a point, but it's the company's owners problem.

edit: *changed this line with something more constructive.

[Edited 2009-10-24 12:11:59]

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-10-24 11:39:23 and read 2798 times.

I found the rank of their website, and you can click through to see how they scored countries:

http://www.heritage.org/Index/TopTen.aspx

ps: notice how Ireland scored higher in Government size compared to the US. And then you have Denmark, with very low scores in two areas but very high scores on *everything else*.

Full ranking:
http://www.heritage.org/Index/Ranking.aspx

[Edited 2009-10-24 11:49:10]

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-24 16:24:33 and read 2764 times.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 71):
Quoting Avent (Reply 70):
It doesn't matter. You were the one objecting to being forced to pay for others and now it turns out you are benefiting from others being forced to pay for you.

The Federal Government is REQUIRED to provide for a national defense. It says so in the Constitution. It is NOT REQUIRED to redistribute wealth or provide income.

Irrelevant - we are still being forced to pay for your education. If the government can't get enough recruits without residtributing wealth to lure them in, then let it introduce conscription.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 71):
You don't know how to use your own table that you provide.
You and I are on different pages. You looked up what percent of their own personal income they pay to the federal government. I was referring to what percent the Top 1% pay of all income tax collected. If you look at this link, from the same site you use, you'll see the Top 1%'s share of the federal income revenue for 2005 was 39% while the Top 5% paid nearly 60% of all federal income tax taken in. The bottom 50% paid only 3% of the total federal income tax collected. My initial point was a slight exaggeration but not far off from the actual facts.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/f...4.pdf

Being on different pages doesn't mean I misused the table since there was nothing incorrecdt in what I stated. But even if we use your framing, it means the top 1% are so absurdly wealthy they can pay 39% of the total merely by paying 20% of their AGI. They can afford to pay a lot more taxes.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 71):
Then you want to explain why one of my good friends from high school (the same "poorly funded public school" that I went to), who came from a middle-of-the-road income family is now going to Yale University?

I referred to correlations. A correlation refers to a statistical trend or relationship - it does not imply certainty. Your anecdote is irrelevant.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 71):
Quoting Avent (Reply 70):
It does not address my argument why that obligation you object to is legitimate.

You still failed to show how socialism would change the situation on the deserted island. In the situation you gave, neither socialism or capitalism would work, so I don't know what your point is or was.

Again, you're being non-responsive.

As for the desert island analogy, it was intended to show that it is impossible to create wealth when in isolation, hence arguments like why should one be forced to spend their hard earned money to help others, are flawed since you cannot reliably earn in a chaotic society. At a minimum we need to contribute to social safety structures, and to the degree we can help those at the bottom, we help create a society less prone to civil strife and criminal behaviour driven by desperation. At the same time, your ability to be productive is also dependent on the government being able to function, and this demands appropriate taxation levels for it to operate and pay off its debt. And all of this involves some form of wealth resdistibution, whether it is in welfare to the poor or the military industrial complex, or in wages to government or military employees, or in functions like funding universities or scholarships for students (regardless of whether they are going into the military or not).

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-24 16:33:28 and read 2761 times.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 73):
found the rank of their website, and you can click through to see how they scored countries:

http://www.heritage.org/Index/TopTen.aspx

ps: notice how Ireland scored higher in Government size compared to the US. And then you have Denmark, with very low scores in two areas but very high scores on *everything else*.

Full ranking:
http://www.heritage.org/Index/Ranking.aspx

[Edited 2009-10-24 11:49:10]

Interesting, a little slanted from the Heratage foundation of course. the thing I like about statistics is how they favor the people who publish them. I am glad we do not have more economic freedom, we would be all in rags, except the top 1% who control the wealth. MM's movie covers this problem well. That is the topic this thread covers, by the way. Not the economic policy of Hong Kong or North Korea. The economic policy of the US and how we are getting screwed by our own.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: FlyDeltaJets87
Posted 2009-10-24 17:15:18 and read 2760 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 74):
Irrelevant - we are still being forced to pay for your education. If the government can't get enough recruits without residtributing wealth to lure them in, then let it introduce conscription.

Not irrelevant. A well educated, all-volunteer military will perform better than a less-education, non-volunteer one. Conscription also does not do well for retention, and retaining enough personnel with experience to provide guidance and direction for junior members is a necessary part of an effective military. Sad that you can't see that.

Quoting Avent (Reply 74):
Being on different pages doesn't mean I misused the table since there was nothing incorrecdt in what I stated.

Please quote where I stated otherwise.

Quoting Avent (Reply 74):
They can afford to pay a lot more taxes

Usually the phrase of someone who's jealous of what others make. But sure, the wealthy can afford to pay more. There's no doubt about that. Bill Gates could afford to pay 99+% of his income each year and still live a comfortable lifestyle. But let's say you tax 99% of Bill Gates' income. You think he's going to bother attempting to make billions each year only to see it all get pissed away in taxes? You're incredibly stupid if you do. And once he stops making money, the government stops taking in the revenue for it. In other words, you reach a point where saying "They can afford it!" becomes counter productive But then they spend less and put less into the economy. And spending less hurts the people who would otherwise receive that money. You raise the taxes on a family and they may decide not to take a vacation that year because they can't afford it, which means the airline loses out on ticket sales. The hotel loses out on a room sale. The rental car company loses out on a sale. The restaurants in the area lose out on sales, and the servers lose out on tips. The local entertainment businesses lose out on sales. All of this trickles down.

This is why I'm all in favor of abolishing the income tax in favor of the national sales tax. Give each household a credit of so much money per year per person in the household to cover food and clothes and tax all other goods and services just like the county and/or state sales tax. Then no one can complain (although they still will) because the rich spend more and are still taxed more, while the "poor" who live in the Section 8 Housing but still go to Best Buy to purchase top-of-the-line stereos, TVs, DVD players, IPods, IPhones, etc will be putting money back into the system, and yet since everyone receives a credit for basic necessities, they can't say the poor are being exploited from being able to afford basic necessities.  yes 

Quoting Avent (Reply 74):
Again, you're being non-responsive.

No. Your analogy is just irrelevant as far as socialism versus capitalism goes.
I never said society is not interdependent, but some people are more important and produce or contribute more than others, or have more responsibility than others, and they are paid more for it. Some people may be over-compensated, such as pro-athletes but no system is going to be fair. If you think it's "unfair" that Alex Rodriguez makes $20 million a year playing baseball, maybe you should have practiced a little more and been a better baseball player so that it would be you making $20 million a year playing 3rd base for the New York Yankees instead of him. Me on the other hand, I'm not motivated that much by money. That's evidenced by the fact that I've selected the military career path.I manage what I have and spend wisely and balance trade offs, such as the ROTC scholarship. I could make far more going to someone like Boeing to be an aerospace engineer than I will when I commission into the Air Force in May. But there are other pluses to the career path I have chosen and not all of them are about money. That said, far be it for me to tell someone who is motivated to earn as much as they can from pursuing that goal, which is why I really don't care if A-Rod makes $20 million a year. If someone else is willing to pay someone that much a year to swing a bat, more power to them.

And the nice part about capitalism is, if my value system changes and I decide to pursue a more high-paying career, I can do that.

Quoting Avent (Reply 74):
At the same time, your ability to be productive is also dependent on the government being able to function, and this demands appropriate taxation levels for it to operate and pay off its debt.

"Pay off its debt" - HAH. Now that's funny. Our government is sooooo good at that. *sarcasm*

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 72):
And yes, there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO confusion: capitalism is your right and freedom to keep or exchange your property as you see fit.*

 checkmark 
Property, Job, & Income.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Aaron747
Posted 2009-10-24 17:32:03 and read 2758 times.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 76):
Usually the phrase of someone who's jealous of what others make.

Right. Lest we forget one of Adam Smith's four tax maxims was this:

The subject of every State ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the State.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-24 17:45:57 and read 2752 times.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 72):
And yes, there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO confusion: capitalism is your right and freedom to keep or exchange your property as you see fit.*



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 76):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 72):
And yes, there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO confusion: capitalism is your right and freedom to keep or exchange your property as you see fit.*


Property, Job, & Income.

Is this a God given right? Can one of you learned gentlemen give me a link to the "Right" of Capitalism. Is there something in the Constitution? Is it in the Bill of Rights?
Where is that "right" bestowed on us. I await your reply. I am not sure about the Right to Capitalism. I am always willing to learn. I would like to see it in print so if anyone tries to take it away, we will have wriiten proof.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Yellowstone
Posted 2009-10-24 18:29:11 and read 2734 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 74):
As for the desert island analogy...

The analogy you point out also explains the justification for progressive tax rates. Ask yourself - who loses more if taken from their life and dumped on a desert island, someone who is just scraping by (and will continue to just scrape by on the island), or someone who was fabulously wealthy (and now has to just scrape by). Since the existence of social structures is inherently worth more to the wealthy, it is justified to charge them higher tax rates.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-10-24 19:24:40 and read 2719 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 78):
Is this a God given right? Can one of you learned gentlemen give me a link to the "Right" of Capitalism. Is there something in the Constitution? Is it in the Bill of Rights?
Where is that "right" bestowed on us. I await your reply. I am not sure about the Right to Capitalism. I am always willing to learn. I would like to see it in print so if anyone tries to take it away, we will have wriiten proof.

Life, liberty, and property. That's where it comes from. I can't explain any better than this:

http://www.isil.org/resources/philosophy-of-liberty-index.html

Scroll down, first option is in English. It's MUCH more than just a "right to capitalism".

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: FlyDeltaJets87
Posted 2009-10-24 20:10:20 and read 2711 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 78):
Is this a God given right? Can one of you learned gentlemen give me a link to the "Right" of Capitalism. Is there something in the Constitution? Is it in the Bill of Rights?

The terms "capitalism" and "free market" had not been coined but the question then becomes how does one interpret the powers of the government? However, since "Capitalism" is not mentioned, it sounds like a good argument against any economic system then, since it's not in the Bill of Rights or Constitution. It also sounds like a good argument against abortion and national healthcare too, especially since on numerous occasions I've heard or seen healthcare referred to as a "constitutional right".
And on top of that, the Constitution says that the government is required to provide for an army and a navy, but it mentions nothing of an air force. I guess we should stop funding the air force.

The 17 Powers of Congress:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 77):
The subject of every State ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the State.

I don't know who Adam Smith is, but it sounds to me like he's arguing in favor of one flat percentage across the board; not the progressive tax system in current use.

I've never said the rich shouldn't pay more of their income. I've always felt, however, that they shouldn't be paying a higher percent of their income simply because they have more.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 79):
Ask yourself - who loses more if taken from their life and dumped on a desert island, someone who is just scraping by

And just how many people in this country are "just scraping by?" I'm not talking about "scraping by to pay their phone, cable, rent, and car payments". I'm referring to actually on the verge of starving to death.

A simple Google search yields some of the following results:
The average household has 2.1 to 2.4 TVs (depending on the source)
89% of Americans own a car, with an average of about 2.3 cars per household. 34% of the population owns one car.
75% have internet access from their home (I wonder what percentage of that are seniors who won't get internet too)
82% of Americans have a cell phone

Here was an interesting tidbitI found in my research:

Walter Williams: U.S. poor envy of the world's poor

People who want more government income redistribution programs often sell their agenda with the lament, "The poor are getting poorer, and the rich are getting richer," but how about some evidence and you decide? I think the rich are getting richer, and so are the poor.

According to the most recent census, about 35 million Americans live in poverty. Heritage Foundation scholar Robert Rector, using several government reports, gives us some insights about these people.

In 1971, about 32 percent of all Americans enjoyed air conditioning in their homes. By 2001, 76 percent of poor people had air conditioning. In 1971, 43 percent of Americans owned a color television; in 2001, 97 percent of poor people owned at least one. In 1971, 1 percent of American homes had a microwave oven; in 2001, 73 percent of poor people had one. Forty-six percent of poor households own their homes. Only about 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. The average poor American has more living space than the average nonpoor individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens and other European cities.

Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars. Seventy-eight percent of the poor have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception; and one-third have an automatic dishwasher.

Poverty is not static for people willing to work. A University of Michigan study shows that only 5 percent of those in the bottom fifth of the income distribution in 1975 remained there in 1991. What happened to the rest? They moved up to the top three-fifths of the income distribution – middle class or higher. Moreover, three out of 10 of the lowest income earners in 1975 moved all the way into the top fifth of income earners by 1991. Those who were poor in 1975 had an inflation-adjusted average income gain of $27,745 by 1991. Those workers who were in the top fifth of income earners in 1975 were better off in 1991 by an average of only $4,354. The bottom line is, the richer are getting richer and the poor are getting richer.

Poverty in the United States, in an absolute sense, has virtually disappeared. Today, there's nothing remotely resembling poverty of yesteryear. However, if poverty is defined in the relative sense, the lowest fifth of income-earners, "poverty" will always be with us. No matter how poverty is defined, if I were an unborn spirit, condemned to a life of poverty, but God allowed me to choose which nation I wanted to be poor in, I'd choose the United States. Our poor must be the envy of the world's poor.


http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/poor-percent-income-1912501-poverty-people

If you want to discredit the article because it references the Heritage Foundation, then it's up to you to disprove the information given, although the article cites that the Heritage Representative referenced government reports for the findings.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Aaron747
Posted 2009-10-24 20:49:48 and read 2704 times.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 81):
I don't know who Adam Smith is

Well I don't like to draw conclusions about the state of education currently in our country, so I won't get into that here. Nevertheless, it goes without saying that anyone regularly sharing opinions on economic issues should, at the very least, have a working knowledge of Adam Smith:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-24 20:59:52 and read 2697 times.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 80):
Scroll down, first option is in English. It's MUCH more than just a "right to capitalism".

I must say that I am confused. This link is something that I can almost totally agree with. I certainly tend to be a Libertarian myself. It speaks over and over of personal liberty, freedom, values lost, no doubt about that. I agree. It does not speak of unions, or of their supposed evils. I do not understand how the freedom to band together, for example (The Sons of Liberty) (The Minutemen at Concord) is Ok, and yet forming a union to protect your freedom from servitude, the freedom to earn a higher wage, to protect yourself from unjust termination, the ability to own private property through higher wages, the ability to feed your family again through higher wages goes against your Libertarian views. This site is dead set against the government and it evil ways which do erode the liberty we used to enjoy in a less complicated age. I am puzzled how you follow the Libertarian view and yet want to deny someone else their basic right to protect themselves financialy. Financial Freedom is Liberty from Servitude. I would say that meets the Libertarian Ideal.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-24 21:17:13 and read 2692 times.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 81):
The terms "capitalism" and "free market" had not been coined but the question then becomes how does one interpret the powers of the government? However, since "Capitalism" is not mentioned, it sounds like a good argument against any economic system then, since it's not in the Bill of Rights or Constitution. It also sounds like a good argument against abortion and national healthcare too, especially since on numerous occasions I've heard or seen healthcare referred to as a "constitutional right".
And on top of that, the Constitution says that the government is required to provide for an army and a navy, but it mentions nothing of an air force. I guess we should stop funding the air force.

Exactly, not in any government wording is the word Capitalism. We follow the Constitution, I would sugget that until the Constitution or Bill of Rights is amended and that word included. that, it not be included as a "Right" It is a system used, not a God given Right, or a Right bestowed by the government. I need not argue your other points, I argued against Capitalism being argued as a "Right" Now if you watch MM's movie, you will learn something about FDR and his Bill of Rights proposed shortly before his death. Too bad they were not made into law, we would have had a different society than we have now. Good info you provided. The point about the Heritage Foundation, all stats are used to prove a point, left or right, distorted usually by the party using them in politics.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-24 21:33:13 and read 2684 times.



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 82):
Well I don't like to draw conclusions about the state of education currently in our country, so I won't get into that here. Nevertheless, it goes without saying that anyone regularly sharing opinions on economic issues should, at the very least, have a working knowledge of Adam Smith:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith

I thank you for the info and the link. In the section about his Wealth of Nations, written in 1776 Smith covers the Masters and workers relationship. Read it and you will see who is the (Master) and who manipulated the workers and their pay for their labor, it will explain why unions come to be and it has not changed a bit 233 years later.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-24 21:35:54 and read 2683 times.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 76):
Quoting Avent (Reply 74):
Irrelevant - we are still being forced to pay for your education. If the government can't get enough recruits without residtributing wealth to lure them in, then let it introduce conscription.

Not irrelevant. A well educated, all-volunteer military will perform better than a less-education, non-volunteer one. Conscription also does not do well for retention, and retaining enough personnel with experience to provide guidance and direction for junior members is a necessary part of an effective military. Sad that you can't see that.

It is irrelevant since you are now arguing that having others forced to pay for your education is ok on its merits but you object to it in general. You are now cherry-picking the issues and rejecting ones that others might see merit in. So at a minimum, there is little merit in your general objection to coerced taxation, and just as badly, you are inconsistent.


And this is the last straw:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 76):
Quoting Avent (Reply 74):
Being on different pages doesn't mean I misused the table since there was nothing incorrecdt in what I stated.

Please quote where I stated otherwise.

Sure, here:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 71):
You don't know how to use your own table that you provide.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: TheCol
Posted 2009-10-24 21:47:31 and read 2679 times.

This is just another biased and factually manipulated documentary by Michael Moore. It's amazing how one man can get so rich off of stupid people who buy into anything that is projected on a screen. He has spouted off so much BS over the years, I've even seen die hard socialists call him on it.
I remember when Bowling for Columbine came out, and my high school political class was going to have a debate on the "facts" presented in the film. I walked in expecting a heated discussion, given that a few of the people in that class suffered losses in their families due to violent altercations. To my surprise, the entire class called BS on Michael Moore.

Quoting Varigb707 (Reply 19):
to learn what Wall Street is all about

From Michael Moore's point of view. Given the amount of stuff he tends to omit and manipulate, I really doubt you get an accurate picture.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-24 21:58:33 and read 2673 times.



Quoting TheCol (Reply 87):
This is just another biased and factually manipulated documentary by Michael Moore. It's amazing how one man can get so rich off of stupid people who buy into anything that is projected on a screen

Have you seen the movie? Sure he manipulates, just as the Republicans, the Democrats, and everyone else does to make a buck, or maybe even make you Think. There are many facts in the movie that are irrefutable. One of them is the unbelievable number of Goldman Saks henchmen in the Treasury Department. Just a little (manipulation) there, of our National Treasury Department. I maybe wrong of course, maybe they were hired on merit. (Laugh there)

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: TheCol
Posted 2009-10-24 22:18:45 and read 2666 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 88):
Sure he manipulates, just as the Republicans, the Democrats, and everyone else does to make a buck

Why not? Everyone is doing it...  Yeah sure

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 88):
or maybe even make you Think.

Yeah, because I didn't know there was a bunch of greedy and corrupt politicians before I watched it.  Yeah sure

We, as a society, are to blame for this recession. Lumping it all on a bunch of greedy bureaucrats won't change anything. I'm not denying that they had a hand in it, but there is a much bigger picture than what Michael Moore presents in the film.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Luv2cattlecall
Posted 2009-10-24 23:04:31 and read 2655 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 27):
Walmart with their ads "Shop Walmart, live better", now that is ironic to say the least. We know what they have done to the US

Yes, I do know what they've done. They've allowed millions to afford basic necessities, have a stable job, etc. Despite propaganda from Wakeup Walmart - a group funded by the Grocer's Union - they pay well above minimum wage, and they actually continue to favor minimum wage increases, since it won't cost them anymore, but will give some of their customers more money to spend. Also, they have given us, by far, the most efficient product distribution system in the world. They've also given millions of workers worldwide jobs that are much better than working in the fields, by allowing them to make assorted goods that their communities can put towards buying things such as John Deere farming equipment, so that their kids won't starve anymore.

They've also taken huge steps to save our envorinment, by doing things such as mandating their major trucking partners to switch to more efficient tractors (the truckstop kind, not the cornfield kind) and using skylights, LEDs, and motion sensors in all their stores - not to mention how much gas you can save by doing all your shopping in one store instead of driving around everywhere. Let's not forget who is responsible for bringing the cost of a CFL bulb from over $4 to less than $1 in less than 45 days - and who has energy calculators and middle shelf/prominent placement for energy efficient bulbs while relegating incandescents to the bottom rows.

Want to take a guess at who first mandated low VOCs in their paint and finishing products, years before the government decided to do something about it? Hint: It was the same company who voluntarily banned products with CFCs while others waited for "the science to come in" re: the gaping hole in the ozone.

They've also used their power to become the first/only large retailer to not allow milk and dairy products from growth hormone treated cows. Speaking of animals, guess who had a no-hassle returns policy during the large petfood recalls a few years back, while places like Target and Petco delegated the responsibility to the manufacturers (yeah..like someone's going to mail a 50 lb. bag of cat chow to the Meow Mix company). They also remain, to this day, the only national store that independently tests food - animal and human - for harmful substances, as well as toys and some cosmetics.

Lastly, who can forget their valiant efforts during Katrina? The company with a profit margin < 3% (Target's markup is over 19%) trucked in water and needed food/supplies BEFORE the main storms hit, and continued to send road-trains of supplies - including over 500 truckloads of water before FEMA or the Red Cross brought in their first truckloads - to victims, without charging anyone a dime. They also used their abilities to allow people to get refills on the medications they needed, and offered all affected employees anywhere else in the system.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Yellowstone
Posted 2009-10-24 23:08:38 and read 2653 times.



Quoting TheCol (Reply 87):
From Michael Moore's point of view. Given the amount of stuff he tends to omit and manipulate, I really doubt you get an accurate picture.

Though I certainly will not deny that Moore presents only one side of the issue (he would argue that you get the other side constantly from other groups, so there's no need to repeat it), I have yet to see anyone demonstrate where he has made false claims. He's only telling part of the truth, sure, but it's still truth.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-10-25 00:01:33 and read 2652 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 83):


You are right that it does not speak of unions, but libertarians have no problem with the concept of unions. After all, bargaining is at the heart of capitalism, in fact it is encouraged. The problem usually comes in when someone tilts the legal playing field their way. This is practiced by too many groups in society, including companies. Hardly just the unions.

If everyone starts resorting to power to go on with their daily lives, it's difficult to blame others for trying to do the same in self protection, even though they are adding to the mess. The hard part is getting everyone to chill out and get them working together again, rather than fighting in voting booths and the halls of government.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2009-10-25 05:25:09 and read 2625 times.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 92):
The hard part is getting everyone to chill out and get them working together again, rather than fighting in voting booths and the halls of government.

I thought you did NOT like the Soviet Union or China?

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Baroque
Posted 2009-10-25 06:10:33 and read 2618 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 88):
I maybe wrong of course, maybe they were hired on merit. (Laugh there)

Then again the last laugh might be that they were hired on merit and the cowboys on Wall St are even worse? Now there is a thought.  cry 

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-10-25 09:36:17 and read 2597 times.



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 93):

I thought you did NOT like the Soviet Union or China?

I know you believe you have a monopoly on "working together". Keep on believing that if it makes you feel better.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: FlyDeltaJets87
Posted 2009-10-25 09:47:45 and read 2595 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 70):
irrelevant



Quoting Avent (Reply 70):
irrelevent



Quoting Avent (Reply 74):
Irrelevant



Quoting Avent (Reply 74):
irrelevant



Quoting Avent (Reply 86):
irrelevant

I've noticed you like using this word a lot to describe posts that just counter your point.

Quoting Avent (Reply 86):
It is irrelevant since you are now arguing that having others forced to pay for your education is ok on its merits but you object to it in general.

It's called "trade off" or "this for that". And nothing is ever "truly free". By the government (Air Force) paying for my college education, I am in turn, required to provide a minimum of 5 years of service in the Air Force. 'If you can't figure out the difference between receiving something and having to give something in return versus just receiving something, than any posts you make can just be considered "irrelevant" from here on out.  sarcastic 

And I'm still waiting on an explanation of how socialism would change the deserted island concept.

Quoting Avent (Reply 74):
If the government can't get enough recruits without residtributing wealth to lure them in, then let it introduce conscription.

Says the guy who, based on his profile, is now too old to be conscripted, but was too young to be drafted during the Vietnam War, even if at the oldest age in his profile.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 87):
This is just another biased and factually manipulated documentary by Michael Moore. It's amazing how one man can get so rich off of stupid people who buy into anything that is projected on a screen. He has spouted off so much BS over the years, I've even seen die hard socialists call him on it.

 checkmark 

Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 90):

 checkmark   thumbsup 

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2009-10-25 12:24:22 and read 2569 times.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 95):
I know you believe you have a monopoly on "working together". Keep on believing that if it makes you feel better.

Hhmm... I wish I could understand your particular hatred for democracy. I guess it's something similar to a Marxist class war, but strangely and diffusely directed.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-25 16:14:45 and read 2539 times.



Quoting TheCol (Reply 89):
We, as a society, are to blame for this recession. Lumping it all on a bunch of greedy bureaucrats won't change anything. I'm not denying that they had a hand in it, but there is a much bigger picture than what Michael Moore presents in the film.

OH! yes there is. I agree, but he does a service to wake people up, if they have the smarts that is. some will never wake up I am afraid. One cannot judge unless one goes to see the movie, how truthful it is., or not. If you see the movie, I would like someone to tell me what is not truthful.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-25 16:19:42 and read 2535 times.



Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 90):

The Walmart cheer works for some people, not me. They will save the world, for some, not me.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-25 16:24:57 and read 2535 times.

[quote=Yellowstone,reply=91]Though I certainly will not deny that Moore presents only one side of the issue (he would argue that you get the other side constantly from other groups, so there's no need to repeat it), I have yet to see anyone demonstrate where he has made false claims. He's only telling part of the truth, sure, but it's still truth.[/quote

Part of the truth is certainly better than no truth as the other side practices so well, as we get poorer, and the wealthy get richer. Seems fair to them, so maybe it is the truth to them. Not me.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-25 16:29:48 and read 2534 times.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 92):
You are right that it does not speak of unions, but libertarians have no problem with the concept of unions. After all, bargaining is at the heart of capitalism, in fact it is encouraged. The problem usually comes in when someone tilts the legal playing field their way. This is practiced by too many groups in society, including companies. Hardly just the unions.

If everyone starts resorting to power to go on with their daily lives, it's difficult to blame others for trying to do the same in self protection, even though they are adding to the mess. The hard part is getting everyone to chill out and get them working together again, rather than fighting in voting booths and the halls of government.

Now that is a statement that I can certainly agree with. Two sides to every story. As soon as we all realize that, we will all be much better off.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-25 16:34:25 and read 2533 times.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 94):
Then again the last laugh might be that they were hired on merit and the cowboys on Wall St are even worse? Now there is a thought.

Now there is a thought that should scare everyone. Good point.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-25 16:40:57 and read 2528 times.



Quoting TheCol (Reply 87):
It's amazing how one man can get so rich off of stupid people who buy into anything that is projected on a screen. He has spouted off so much BS over the years, I've even seen die hard socialists call him on it.

It is amazing how so many people can get so filthy rich from stupid people such as we and maybe thee. Stupid people who buy into the propaganda put out by Wall Street about Executive Compensation for the big boys. We need it to keep the top dogs, you get the point. MM is a Piker compared to them, small potatoes.  Sad  Sad

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: FlyDeltaJets87
Posted 2009-10-25 16:42:56 and read 2528 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 100):
Part of the truth is certainly better than no truth as the other side practices so well, as we get poorer, and the wealthy get richer. Seems fair to them, so maybe it is the truth to them. Not me.

Just how are the "poor getting poorer" in this country? It's a euphemism I hear constantly but never explained. It's one that sounds great for bashing capitalism or the rich, but is never explained or backed up. It's just something constantly repeated that those who repeat it hope that if they say it enough, it will become the truth.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 97):
Hhmm... I wish I could understand your particular hatred for democracy.

That's a solid argument. *sarcasm*

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-25 16:58:18 and read 2524 times.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 104):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 100):
Part of the truth is certainly better than no truth as the other side practices so well, as we get poorer, and the wealthy get richer. Seems fair to them, so maybe it is the truth to them. Not me.

You will notice, well obviously you did not. I said as WE get poorer. I certainly do not count myself as poor. Not rich, not poor. Part of the disappearing Middle class. I was referring to myself getting poorer along with many on here after the great collapse of the Financial markets, run so well by the Crooks on Wall Street, the Bankers. Not unions, not the poor, the Rich trying to get Super Rich. The Ostrich Analogy seems to apply here.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-25 17:14:19 and read 2519 times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights

For those of you who are open minded, this is in MM's movie. I was not aware of this until I watched the movie. An interesting article for those who want another view of FDR and his beliefs. Too bad he passed away before anything was done about these points that would have changed the US as we know it. There would have been much more fairness to the US Capitalist System. Economic servitude as in the Walmart Economy now would not have happened. A fair wage, not in Walmarts business model, nor many others.  Sad

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: TheCol
Posted 2009-10-25 20:22:31 and read 2502 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 98):
I agree, but he does a service to wake people up

What service is that? All he did was create a smokescreen by telling you what you wanted to hear, concealed the fine print, and robbed you blind.

Does that remind you of anybody?

The fact that sill remains is that our society, yet again, transformed Wall Street into a back alley casino. The sharks bent the rules and exploited the loopholes, and everyone let them do it because they wanted a piece of the pie. Personally, I have no problem with cracking down on greedy bureaucrats. But as long as people continue to buy into BS such as:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 100):
Part of the truth is certainly better than no truth as the other side practices so well

Then the cycle will repeat itself again in the next 50 or 60 years.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 103):
Stupid people who buy into the propaganda put out by Wall Street about Executive Compensation for the big boys.

I hate to break it to you, but Michael Moore's "executive bonus" will be worth a lot more than what the average CEO gets.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Luv2cattlecall
Posted 2009-10-25 22:00:45 and read 2486 times.



Quoting TheCol (Reply 107):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 103):
Stupid people who buy into the propaganda put out by Wall Street about Executive Compensation for the big boys.

I hate to break it to you, but Michael Moore's "executive bonus" will be worth a lot more than what the average CEO gets.

It's best to just ignore those who don't know the difference between executive salaries and executives being granted stock options which involve investing their own cold, hard cash with the expectation that their decisions and leadership will lead to substantial growth over 5-15 years.

The CEO of the Red Cross makes more than any airline CEO in the country, yet unions tout that AArpey got $10 million one year. That was in options - which, had Arpey exercised, would have cost him over $4 million in losses.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-26 08:38:24 and read 2454 times.



Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 108):
It's best to just ignore those who don't know the difference between executive salaries and executives being granted stock options which involve investing their own cold, hard cash with the expectation that their decisions and leadership will lead to substantial growth over 5-15 years.

The CEO of the Red Cross makes more than any airline CEO in the country, yet unions tout that AArpey got $10 million one year. That was in options - which, had Arpey exercised, would have cost him over $4 million in losses.



Well Pardon this person who does not know the difference, except I have had bonuses, I have been granted stock options with my company, I knew what long term and short term incentives, executive compensation was when some on here were still sucking on lollipops.  cry 

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Victrola
Posted 2009-10-26 09:13:55 and read 2443 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 67):
Well Ireland is quite socialistic as are most europen countries so this list doesn't pass the 'whiff test.' Furthermore, since this index was produced by a fairly extreme rightwing thinktank (The Heritage Foundation), it doesn't surprise me they'd confuse freedom, democracy, and capitalism.

You are the one who seems to be confused about freedom, democracy, and capitalism. And you obviously have not bothered to check out the website to view the criteria they used to come up with their rankings. There is really nothing controversial about the rankings in the list. People all over the political spectrum will agree that Hong Kong is more capitalistic than the UK which is more capitalistic than North Korea.

The Heratige Institute defines economic freedom as follows:

"The highest form of economic freedom provides an absolute right of property ownership, fully realized freedom of movement of labor, capital, and goods, and an absolute absence of coercion or constraint of economic liberty beyond the extent necessary for citizens to maintain and protect liberty itself."

While the study does not measure political freedom, it is interesting to note that with the exceptions of Hong Kong and Singapore, every country in the top 10 is a full blown democracy. While every country in the bottom 10 with the possible exception of Venezuela, is a repressive dictatorship.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-26 17:24:48 and read 2396 times.



Quoting TheCol (Reply 107):
What service is that? All he did was create a smokescreen by telling you what you wanted to hear, concealed the fine print, and robbed you blind.

I went to the matinee, cheap tickets. Now when I and many others look at the end results of both parties, with their lobbyists, bankers and financial wizard cronies and then I and many others look at our net worth, I would say that MM is again a piker. They robbed billions and billions. MM made a movie, and he well might earn a million, but the message? I will take his anyday. He has some motives besides naked greed.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 107):
The fact that sill remains is that our society, yet again, transformed Wall Street into a back alley casino. The sharks bent the rules and exploited the loopholes, and everyone let them do it because they wanted a piece of the pie. Personally, I have no problem with cracking down on greedy bureaucrats. But as long as people continue to buy into BS such as:

Surprise! I agree with your comments 100%, above, except the people "buying into BS" That I cannot buy into. Deep down, you have to know he has valid points. We are getting screwed over by the people we used to trust. Blame MM for his methods maybe, not the message. If I could, I would gladly pay your way into the movie and see it again myself, to be able to discuss its points directly with you. That would be interesting.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-26 17:50:38 and read 2392 times.



Quoting Victrola (Reply 110):

"The highest form of economic freedom provides an absolute right of property ownership, fully realized freedom of movement of labor, capital, and goods, and an absolute absence of coercion or constraint of economic liberty beyond the extent necessary for citizens to maintain and protect liberty itself."

An absolute right of property ownership, how? and for whom? We may have the freedom, or liberty to own property. We are a nation of law, who will confer the absolute "right" once again? Has any part of the US government passed such a "Right" We all know you can buy a piece of property, protest the taxes levied, refuse payment, and you will not see any "Right" or "Rights" Then you will know who really owns the property. The rest of the definition of Economic Freedom above is unworkable also. Freedom of movement of labor, capital and goods. Yes, it is the dream of the Capitalist, but totally not only unworkable, but unlawful. Regulation, tarriffs etc. The rest, a pipedream, also. the ideal for the True Capitalist, but I think it would be hell for the rest of us.  Sad

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Victrola
Posted 2009-10-27 08:35:30 and read 2340 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 112):
An absolute right of property ownership, how? and for whom? We may have the freedom, or liberty to own property. We are a nation of law, who will confer the absolute "right" once again? Has any part of the US government passed such a "Right" We all know you can buy a piece of property, protest the taxes levied, refuse payment, and you will not see any "Right" or "Rights" Then you will know who really owns the property. The rest of the definition of Economic Freedom above is unworkable also. Freedom of movement of labor, capital and goods. Yes, it is the dream of the Capitalist, but totally not only unworkable, but unlawful. Regulation, tarriffs etc. The rest, a pipedream, also. the ideal for the True Capitalist, but I think it would be hell for the rest of us.

As usual your posting is another incoherent rant that totally misses the point. While there is no perfectly capitalistic country on the planet. The fact remains that the countries closest to this capitalistic ideal are among the richest in the world and the countries that are farthest from this ideal are the poorest in the world today.

I suggest you might be happier in a socialist workers paradise like Cuba or North Korea.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: ATCtower
Posted 2009-10-27 08:38:16 and read 2339 times.

Quoting Victrola (Reply 110):
"The highest form of economic freedom provides an absolute right of property ownership, fully realized freedom of movement of labor, capital, and goods, and an absolute absence of coercion or constraint of economic liberty beyond the extent necessary for citizens to maintain and protect liberty itself."

While the study does not measure political freedom, it is interesting to note that with the exceptions of Hong Kong and Singapore, every country in the top 10 is a full blown democracy. While every country in the bottom 10 with the possible exception of Venezuela, is a repressive dictatorship.

If this were to hold true, here in the US, we have very little economic freedom as we are nowhere near absolute ownership rights of anything...

For examples-
The second ammendment grants me the right to bear arms. That is an inherant, absolute, right of ownership. The Brady Bill, and other "legislation" has limited that right to what the US believes we should own, thus killing "absolute ownership"

I own a sizeable chunk of land here in Colorado. Should the government want to annex it to build a new freeway, it is their right to do so without my permission, paying me what they "feel" it is worth.

I happen to love exotic cars. A car I would love to purchase is a TVR Tuscan Speed 6. I can not purchase this without modifying the body/interior/motor. This is limiting my right to "absolute ownership".

(Devils Advocate here) If I love doing drugs. My drug use is limited by what I can get a prescription for. If I want to grow marijuana for my personal use, carry, and use my personal stash of marijuana, it is not legal. This limits my right to absolute ownership.

If I want to build my own house on a parcel of land that is not zoned for residential living, I am not allowed. Once I do build my house on land that IS zoned for residential dwellings, I must ensure it is "up to code". This limits my rights to absolute ownership.

In a fairy tale world, we would have rights to absolute ownership. To say we have absolute right of ownership of ANYTHING is dillusional and unrealistic. Due to concern for the safety and security of others, certain limitations are put in place to curb my desire to drive down the street in my TVR smoking a joint with an AK-47 in the other hand. These limitations must present themself delicately however as not to impede on our civil rights as citizens of a free nation.

My $.02

[Edited 2009-10-27 08:39:13]

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-27 08:58:56 and read 2331 times.



Quoting Victrola (Reply 110):
While the study does not measure political freedom, it is interesting to note that with the exceptions of Hong Kong and Singapore, every country in the top 10 is a full blown democracy. While every country in the bottom 10 with the possible exception of Venezuela, is a repressive dictatorship.

In which case the survey might be more about democracy than capitalism.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2009-10-27 09:36:39 and read 2328 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):

I was wondering if anyone has seen his latest movie and what is the opinion of it.

I am not interested in anything Michael Moore has to say. He has some valid points, but he's so biased and so one-sided that I can't trust what he says.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Victrola
Posted 2009-10-27 09:38:28 and read 2324 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 115):
In which case the survey might be more about democracy than capitalism.

The criteria of the study were based on economic freedom, rather than political freedom. In theory it may be possible for a military dictatorship to have a high level of economic freedom. However, it seems that non democratic governments like to have control of both economic and political freedom.

Even the non democratic countries in the top ten of the survey ( Hong Kong, and Singapore) are far from being bloodthirsty dictatorships.

Nevertheless, this study does seem to show a high correlation between economic and political freedom.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-27 09:53:11 and read 2320 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 116):

I am not interested in anything Michael Moore has to say. He has some valid points, but he's so biased and so one-sided that I can't trust what he says.

For you to say that he has some valid points, I commend your fairness, certainly not like some others. We all have the right to express our opinions, thank goodness!

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-27 10:00:28 and read 2320 times.



Quoting Victrola (Reply 113):
As usual your posting is another incoherent rant that totally misses the point. While there is no perfectly capitalistic country on the planet. The fact remains that the countries closest to this capitalistic ideal are among the richest in the world and the countries that are farthest from this ideal are the poorest in the world today.

I suggest you might be happier in a socialist workers paradise like Cuba or North Korea.



Quoting ATCtower (Reply 114):
If this were to hold true, here in the US, we have very little economic freedom as we are nowhere near absolute ownership rights of anything...

For examples-
The second ammendment grants me the right to bear arms. That is an inherant, absolute, right of ownership. The Brady Bill, and other "legislation" has limited that right to what the US believes we should own, thus killing "absolute ownership"

I own a sizeable chunk of land here in Colorado. Should the government want to annex it to build a new freeway, it is their right to do so without my permission, paying me what they "feel" it is worth.

I happen to love exotic cars. A car I would love to purchase is a TVR Tuscan Speed 6. I can not purchase this without modifying the body/interior/motor. This is limiting my right to "absolute ownership".

(Devils Advocate here) If I love doing drugs. My drug use is limited by what I can get a prescription for. If I want to grow marijuana for my personal use, carry, and use my personal stash of marijuana, it is not legal. This limits my right to absolute ownership.

If I want to build my own house on a parcel of land that is not zoned for residential living, I am not allowed. Once I do build my house on land that IS zoned for residential dwellings, I must ensure it is "up to code". This limits my rights to absolute ownership.

In a fairy tale world, we would have rights to absolute ownership. To say we have absolute right of ownership of ANYTHING is dillusional and unrealistic. Due to concern for the safety and security of others, certain limitations are put in place to curb my desire to drive down the street in my TVR smoking a joint with an AK-47 in the other hand. These limitations must present themself delicately however as not to impede on our civil rights as citizens of a free nation.

My $.02

In response to the above, by Victrola, may I use yours ATCTower? You will find no response as usual to your well reasoned and factual reply. Classic, when they have no answer, they ignore. Thanks for the use of your reply, well said.


 checkmark   checkmark 

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: FlyDeltaJets87
Posted 2009-10-27 10:29:50 and read 2315 times.



Quoting ATCtower (Reply 114):
If I want to build my own house on a parcel of land that is not zoned for residential living, I am not allowed.

That's because our governments at the local, state, and federal level figured out they can make money by saying "this is zoned for this . You can get the city council to waive just about anything if you have enough money.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 119):
In response to the above, by Victrola, may I use yours ATCTower? You will find no response as usual to your well reasoned and factual reply. Classic, when they have no answer, they ignore. Thanks for the use of your reply, well said.

Well obviously there will have to be some balance, such as factoring in public safety, though to an extent, public safety will be factored in anyway. For example, airlines know passengers won't fly unsafe airlines or planes. This forces the airlines to ensure top-notch maintenance and to buy aircraft from manufacturers that produce safe, reliable aircraft. However, government regulation is there to ensure safety, although this most regulation is usually reactionary rather than "thinking ahead".

The question comes down to where is the balance.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Victrola
Posted 2009-10-27 10:47:11 and read 2312 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 119):
In response to the above, by Victrola, may I use yours ATCTower? You will find no response as usual to your well reasoned and factual reply. Classic, when they have no answer, they ignore. Thanks for the use of your reply, well said.

Once again you fail to understand the point of the survey. Nobody, not even the Heratige Foundation claims that there is any such thing as absolutely 100% economic freedom. They merely point out that the countries with the highest ammount of economic freedom, also tend to be the most prosperous and the countries with the least ammount of economic freedom tend to be among the poorist in the world. You will also note that their definition of economic freedom mentions the concept of constraints necessary for citizens to protect liberty itself"

Classic is your inability to understand this concept.

Those of us with ambition and a work ethic much prefer to live in an environment of economic freedom where we can be rewarded according to our skills, ideas, and ability to adapt in a dynamic world.

I do understand however where those who don't wish to apply themselves and who wish to live off of the work of others would prefer a socialist economic system. The ignorant, and lazy do have much more to gain from socialisim than from free markets. The only problem is, that in a socialist economy, the innovative and productive people eventually see no point in continuing their efforts if they receive the same compensation as everyone else.

Perhaps we should split the world into 2 portions and let those that prefer free markets have their half, and those who prefer socialism to have their half. Then everyone could be happy.I wonder which side the world's most ambitious and innovative people would choose to live.

 Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-10-27 10:58:25 and read 2307 times.



Quoting Victrola (Reply 121):
Then everyone could be happy.

Like all of those really happy people in the East Germany who were so happy they wanted to escape to West Germany and spread the happiness there?

Quoting Victrola (Reply 121):
I wonder which side the world's most ambitious and innovative people would choose to live.

I know which side I want.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-27 11:04:01 and read 2302 times.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 120):
That's because our governments at the local, state, and federal level figured out they can make money by saying "this is zoned for this . You can get the city council to waive just about anything if you have enough money.

I agree, very common here. I myself have been engaged with the local building authority for the past two years, fees, permits, for evrything. For some items there is no legal remedy by the City Council, they set up the system after all. The folks with deep pockets and connections are not really that bothered, by the system. the can afford to buy their way and pay the fees. They get around the system one way or another.


[quote=FlyDeltaJets87,reply=120]Well obviously there will have to be some balance, such as factoring in public safety, though to an extent, public safety will be factored in anyway. For example, airlines know passengers won't fly unsafe airlines or planes. This forces the airlines to ensure top-notch maintenance and to buy aircraft from manufacturers that produce safe, reliable aircraft. However, government regulation is there to ensure safety, although this most regulation is usually reactionary rather than "thinking ahead".

The question comes down to where is the balance.

That is the problem now, no balance, extreme views from both sides. It is very obvious on here as we see. Sad to see, not good for our nation.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2009-10-27 11:04:31 and read 2307 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
I found it very disturbing

If you think Michael Moore is disturbing you should watch Alex Jones latest film Fall Of The Republic.

No need to go looking for torrents, the full version can be found here.

http://truthactionottawa.com/main/?page_id=843

 Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-27 11:27:32 and read 2295 times.



Quoting Victrola (Reply 121):
Classic is your inability to understand this concept.

Those of us with ambition and a work ethic much prefer to live in an environment of economic freedom where we can be rewarded according to our skills, ideas, and ability to adapt in a dynamic world.

Well once again, let me point out somthing about this guy who does not understand and many more like myself.. Myself as an example. I worked for 42 years, union. I was never fired from a job, I was laid off. I was on strike several times. I worked hours in storms you could never even imagine. When I retired, I had a perfect record, lilly white. I married to my high school sweetheart. Thank God, still am. I have children and Grandchildren, I and four of my brothers all served. I defend my fellow workers, union and non-union, I do not lie cheat or steal. I defend my fellow citizens and country, not the currupt system of Capitalism we now have as you do. The heratage Foundation preachs Economic Servitude for the many, luxury and wealth for the few. Is that Democracy of the founding Fathers? I do not think so. It is funny, how the extreme right wing, clearly preachs one thing, but always seems to follow the money. A cover for the millionaires, billionaires, they preach freedom, liberty, while robbing us blind. You like it, keep it.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-27 11:52:08 and read 2294 times.



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 124):
Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
I found it very disturbing

If you think Michael Moore is disturbing you should watch Alex Jones latest film Fall Of The Republic.

No need to go looking for torrents, the full version can be found here.

http://truthactionottawa.com/main/?page_id=843


Madame, I thank you for that link. I watched part of it, it is dead on, that should be shown in the theatre. I will watch the rest later tonight, I have to leave. Very disturbing view of our future if the coporattions and their robots have their way. Like the man said, We owe our allegiance to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, not to Democrats and Republicans, and most certainly not to corporations.  Smile

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Victrola
Posted 2009-10-27 12:00:08 and read 2290 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 125):
The heratage Foundation preachs Economic Servitude for the many, luxury and wealth for the few.

It preaches economic freedom for Everyone and luxury and wealth for those who are EARN IT! Nobody owes you a living.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 125):
Is that Democracy of the founding Fathers?

Our founding fathers believed that a man should be allowed to keep the fruits of his labors.

Peoplel like you see someone go out in the world make good, and become rich, and all you can think about is hot to take that wealth away from him. You are consumed by a pathological hatred of the rich.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: ATCtower
Posted 2009-10-27 12:40:18 and read 2281 times.



Quoting Victrola (Reply 127):
Peoplel like you see someone go out in the world make good, and become rich, and all you can think about is hot to take that wealth away from him. You are consumed by a pathological hatred of the rich.

I dont think thats what he is trying to say. If it is, I must have certainly missed something. It seems (to me) that he is trying to agree that there is nothing in this country that is an "absolute right of ownership". He states the wealth of the "have's" as a right, but also points out the flaws that those with the resources are attempting to strip the remainder from those without.

I for one am probably the most capitalistic person you will ever have the honor of speaking to. I do not believe in punishing the rich for what they have attained, nor do I believe we should be re-distributing the wealth as Lenin and many others advocate to assist the poor. I believe in nearly all situations, one's means are reminiscent of their past/present lifestyle. None of us can really say we would feel sorry for a millionaire who squandered all of their money anymore than we could give a damn about the "gang-bangin homeboy" who whines about not getting out of the ghetto. I do, however, have a problem with certain public policies which strip steerage of the modest means they have to further build the wealth of the privileged.

My $.02

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-27 15:44:40 and read 2238 times.



Quoting Victrola (Reply 117):
Nevertheless, this study does seem to show a high correlation between economic and political freedom.

Yes. I can agree with that statement.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-27 16:58:01 and read 2226 times.



Quoting Victrola (Reply 127):
Our founding fathers believed that a man should be allowed to keep the fruits of his labors.


They did? How come we had slavery then, even after the founding Fathers? The mentality has not really changed, the Plantation owner and his slaves have now given way to economic servitude. Of course we had to have a little Civil War to do accomplish even that. It seems the Corporations are now the Plantations of the new age. I sure hope we do not have to have another war to defeat this new scourge of the rich, trying to get richer.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 125):




Well once again, let me point out somthing about this guy who does not understand and many more like myself.. Myself as an example. I worked for 42 years, union. I was never fired from a job, I was laid off. I was on strike several times. I worked hours in storms you could never even imagine. When I retired, I had a perfect record, lilly white. I married to my high school sweetheart. Thank God, still am. I have children and Grandchildren, I and four of my brothers all served. I defend my fellow workers, union and non-union, I do not lie cheat or steal. I defend my fellow citizens and country, not the currupt system of Capitalism we now have as you do. The heratage Foundation preachs Economic Servitude for the many, luxury and wealth for the few. Is that Democracy of the founding Fathers? I do not think so. It is funny, how the extreme right wing, clearly preachs one thing, but always seems to follow the money. A cover for the millionaires, billionaires, they preach freedom, liberty, while robbing us blind. You like it, keep it.

That was the point of my earlier reply above, nobody gave me a dammed thing. It is amazing how you do not understand replies that do not support you.  Sad

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-27 17:13:43 and read 2224 times.



Quoting ATCtower (Reply 128):
dont think thats what he is trying to say. If it is, I must have certainly missed something. It seems (to me) that he is trying to agree that there is nothing in this country that is an "absolute right of ownership". He states the wealth of the "have's" as a right, but also points out the flaws that those with the resources are attempting to strip the remainder from those without.

You are absolutely correct, I have benefited greatly from the Capitalistic system. It has now been perverted once again so as to take away the ability of the less fortunate (of which I was one) to gain any headway in this economy. When every avenue is closed, how do you better yourself? If you cannot afford, or just simply do not have the mental ability to go to college, should you be condemmed to servitude? Are we India now with a Caste System, never able to rise above ones station? To hear many on here, it would seem so. I do realize that the "rights" and "needs" of the wealthy require the less fortunate take care of them. Dammed if that does not sound familiar, like the Plantation owners of old.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: ATCtower
Posted 2009-10-27 19:32:04 and read 2213 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 130):
They did? How come we had slavery then, even after the founding Fathers? The mentality has not really changed, the Plantation owner and his slaves have now given way to economic servitude. Of course we had to have a little Civil War to do accomplish even that. It seems the Corporations are now the Plantations of the new age. I sure hope we do not have to have another war to defeat this new scourge of the rich, trying to get richer.

Excellent point. I too believe the corporations are becoming the modern era plantations. The founding father argument, though I will relate many things to our constitution, which was created by the founding fathers, is a difficult one to make. We as a society have evolved in a number of ways since. Of course some are better, some are worse, and some are simply evolution of our kind.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 131):
You are absolutely correct, I have benefited greatly from the Capitalistic system. It has now been perverted once again so as to take away the ability of the less fortunate (of which I was one) to gain any headway in this economy. When every avenue is closed, how do you better yourself? If you cannot afford, or just simply do not have the mental ability to go to college, should you be condemmed to servitude? Are we India now with a Caste System, never able to rise above ones station? To hear many on here, it would seem so. I do realize that the "rights" and "needs" of the wealthy require the less fortunate take care of them. Dammed if that does not sound familiar, like the Plantation owners of old.

I have benefited myself from ruthless capitalism. I too came from the steerage of society. My upbringing from a single mother of very limited means and her will to improve my life have changed me forever. I have never personally thrown anyone under the bus to further my own agenda, but I am also sure some have suffered at the hand of my success. For this I can not say I am proud, but I am able to say one thing..... My family will live comfortably due to my diligence, determination, and drive to succeed in a capitalist world.

Beyond that, I also want to say welcome to my Respected User list WarRl1.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-27 21:07:45 and read 2198 times.



Quoting ATCtower (Reply 132):
I have benefited myself from ruthless capitalism. I too came from the steerage of society. My upbringing from a single mother of very limited means and her will to improve my life have changed me forever. I have never personally thrown anyone under the bus to further my own agenda, but I am also sure some have suffered at the hand of my success. For this I can not say I am proud, but I am able to say one thing..... My family will live comfortably due to my diligence, determination, and drive to succeed in a capitalist world

I say thank you, it is one thing to succeed, as I believe we have done, it is another all together to use that success to suppress, or take away that which was available to us. That is the course of the corporations, They want you to buy their products, and all the while working to make them unavailable through less wages, and less people able to afford them. I do not really understand the mentality. My prime example is always Walmart. They have done more damage to the American workers wages than anyone, forcing the products to be made overseas, jobs lost, forcing the workers here to work for unlivable wages. No benefits. Now the wages are down or static and their new slogan which is so hypocritical. "Live better, Shop Walmart" They would have you think that they have done us a favor forcing the vendors to go overseas to produce the product cheaply, and then sell them to us for a tidy profit. Big Hearts there, and so typical of todays multi-national corporations.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: A346Dude
Posted 2009-10-27 21:16:13 and read 2198 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 124):
If you think Michael Moore is disturbing you should watch Alex Jones latest film Fall Of The Republic.

No need to go looking for torrents, the full version can be found here.

http://truthactionottawa.com/main/?p...d=843

Good movie, thanks for the link.

The difference between Alex Jones and Michael Moore is Alex Jones actually believes in a truly free market, uninhibited by government intrusion. Moore, on the other hand, is one of the collectivists who are handing away our freedom.

[Edited 2009-10-27 21:17:11]

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-27 21:26:45 and read 2190 times.



Quoting ATCtower (Reply 132):
Beyond that, I also want to say welcome to my Respected User list WarRl1.

Let me say, welcome to mine also.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-27 22:00:53 and read 2181 times.



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 134):
The difference between Alex Jones and Michael Moore is Alex Jones actually believes in a truly free market, uninhibited by government intrusion. Moore, on the other hand, is one of the collectivists who are handing away our freedom.

I do not think so. In fact MM is saying in the film just the opposite, that the corporations, and banks and politicians are the danger to our freedom. Of course it is all according to what freedom you are talking about. Of course, a true Capitalist might think he is advocating the central control of business. I believe he is worried about an Oligarchy, as mentioned in his film. A state governed by an Elite few, such as the wealthy, maybe the corporations. MM is worried about American Society, which does not make him a Socialist. With the influence the corporations now have over our government, he is right to be worried. So am I.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: AGM100
Posted 2009-10-28 08:24:48 and read 2140 times.

Have no fear "Capitlaism" is still alive and well .... here is how it works now.

1. Have VP Biden secure a $528 million dollar payment to a electric car company ... from you the American tax payer.

2. Move the production facility to Home State of VP Biden .

3. Use Sate funds to rehabilitate the production facility .

4. Hold big press conference ..load up the crowd with Union workers and grandstand on your amazing accomplishment !! .

5. Make sure your son is there to take credit... to help him in his congressional run .

6. Done.

Electric luxury cars ..... ???  vomit  Electric luxury cars ....,,.... WHAT ?

This is why we try too keep government out of our market !!! It breeds corruption .... corruption that kills our political system and will eventually enslave us .... Its one thing to have greedy CEO's who can be fired or drive the company to bankruptcy ... but now we are going to have politicians running our companies. And you can never get rid of them .... no matter how bad it gets they rarely lose there job. Welcome to the new capitalism ..... Capital the key word

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-28 08:45:49 and read 2136 times.



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 137):
This is why we try too keep government out of our market !!! It breeds corruption .... corruption that kills our political system and will eventually enslave us .... Its one thing to have greedy CEO's who can be fired or drive the company to bankruptcy ... but now we are going to have politicians running our companies. And you can never get rid of them .... no matter how bad it gets they rarely lose there job. Welcome to the new capitalism ..... Capital the key word

I do not blame anyone for trying to keep government out of the citizens business, if only the citizens and the corporations and banks and yes, even unions would conduct themselves so as not to give the government an excuse for meddling, we would be fine. Ban lobbying by everyone, that would certainly help. The real problem as we all know is Campaign financing, that is the real currupter. What has the cry been about that? Freedom of speech?

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-28 09:17:24 and read 2131 times.



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 137):
This is why we try too keep government out of our market !!! It breeds corruption .... corruption that kills our political system and will eventually enslave us .... Its one thing to have greedy CEO's who can be fired or drive the company to bankruptcy ... but now we are going to have politicians running our companies. And you can never get rid of them .... no matter how bad it gets they rarely lose there job. Welcome to the new capitalism ..... Capital the key word

Yes, it was the government who gave the CEOs their obscene wages, and it was government that instituted sweatshops, and it was government that keeps CEOs employed even as their companies were declaring bankruptcy. Clearly it was all the government's fault.

Yes indeed we need to keep government out of the market - a government that has been waging needless wars in order to keep the military industrial complex fed after the collapse of the Iron Curtain; a government that ex-company executives use to steer billions in no-bid contracts to their cronies; a government that when it tries to do something for the healthcare of the average guy is practically derailed in its efforts through corporate lobbying.

Yes it was all the government's fault when the gluttons on Wall Street wrecked the economy.

One has to wonder what it would take for people to simply open their eyes.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: A346Dude
Posted 2009-10-28 10:07:21 and read 2123 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 139):
Yes, it was the government who gave the CEOs their obscene wages, and it was government that instituted sweatshops, and it was government that keeps CEOs employed even as their companies were declaring bankruptcy. Clearly it was all the government's fault.

It was the government's fault when it allowed these things to continue by bailing out the very companies that should have failed as a result of it.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: AGM100
Posted 2009-10-28 10:09:24 and read 2123 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 139):
Clearly it was all the government's fault.

In many ways it was .... Big business (Banks) get hooked up and networked with the government . They then become to big to fail ... instead of going bankrupt the government keeps them breathing . Using our tax money . Do you know that the FM's (government mortgage companies ) hold 55% of our home mortgages ? Did you know that ? Ya and what was the cause of our last crash ? Bingo ... over valued home loans ... And why not , the FMS's had a unlimited amount of money to play with ... so they could jack the values and hand out loans at will. There is no accountability with a government sponsored program ... the perpetrators at worst lose a election ... big deal.

Quoting Avent (Reply 139):
One has to wonder what it would take for people to simply open their eyes.

There is no perfect system Avent .... but you are buying into the populist message . A vast majority of US corporations do NOT fall into gluten category . This is a lie perpetrated by the left wing to push there agenda ..and bantered about over lattes everywhere. The US has many many many outstanding corporations , who employee millions , give back to there community and make all of our lives better.

I AM SICK OF THE LEFT PUTTING DOWN OR CORPORATIONS ! Are they perfect ? no ... but we have some of the best in world . What the hell is the alternative ? Fannie and Feddy operations ? Ya ,, that went well a trillion dollars in debt and all of the players moved along without a scratch . Or maybe ... Medicaid ? Or social security ? Or how about Medicare ? Which one do you want to hold up as a example of government run programs that we should model our new economy after ?

Free-market capitalism works ...period. Socialism and communism do not work ...

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-28 11:56:33 and read 2111 times.



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 141):
Quoting Avent (Reply 139):
Clearly it was all the government's fault.

In many ways it was .... Big business (Banks) get hooked up and networked with the government . They then become to big to fail ... instead of going bankrupt the government keeps them breathing . Using our tax money . Do you know that the FM's (government mortgage companies ) hold 55% of our home mortgages ? Did you know that ? Ya and what was the cause of our last crash ? Bingo ... over valued home loans ... And why not , the FMS's had a unlimited amount of money to play with ... so they could jack the values and hand out loans at will. There is no accountability with a government sponsored program ... the perpetrators at worst lose a election ... big deal.

But this is only addressing issues in the endgame where the government, obsessed with keeping capitalism alive, blunders in to help the crooks who got us into this mess because of poor government oversight.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 141):
There is no perfect system Avent .... but you are buying into the populist message .

Heh. There is no perfect system? You seem to be advocating a purely capitalist one. I have no problem with a mix.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 141):
A vast majority of US corporations do NOT fall into gluten category . This is a lie perpetrated by the left wing to push there agenda ..and bantered about over lattes everywhere. The US has many many many outstanding corporations , who employee millions , give back to there community and make all of our lives better.

Corporate gluttony is not a lie and to argue this after the Wall Street meltdown is quite brave on yor part. Yes some will be reasonable and ethical, but many of the heavyweights are highly unethecial - after all, gluttonly is their main purpose and the logical conclusion to their existence so why be surprised they behave accordingly?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 141):
I AM SICK OF THE LEFT PUTTING DOWN OR CORPORATIONS !

The poor dears! Why I'll bet they are a force for good and everything would be ok if only we would let them advertise in our schools and stop burdening them with drug and food safety restrictions, and gee whiz, while we're at it, we should let those nice tobacco companies sell their candy flavored cigarettes to children who deserve the right to choose! What has corporate america done do deserve the contempt they are held in? It's all so unfair.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: AGM100
Posted 2009-10-28 12:21:52 and read 2105 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 142):
I have no problem with a mix.

Not a mix .... the government is there to apply rules . They are to assure a fair and free marketplace too uphold protection from monopoly and provide security from foreign and domestic threats to that market place. The government is not supposed to be loaning money , borrowing money , and owning private corporations.

Quoting Avent (Reply 142):
but many of the heavyweights are highly unethecia

A few ... really a few . Some wall street raiders .... mostly non producing money changers .

Quoting Avent (Reply 142):
It's all so unfair.

What is unfair is the current attitude that corporations are bad., Take the whole change idea ... a change from what ?

In order to buy into the change idea you must first support the idea that America is bad. And that we are going to fundamentally change the whole thing ... too what ? What is the fundamental change from what has built America ? It can only be communism or Marxism .... we are a capitalist country and always have been...so change must mean the opposite . So .. just say that you want socialism , Marxism or communism .... take your pick .

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: ATCtower
Posted 2009-10-28 12:59:06 and read 2096 times.



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 141):
There is no perfect system Avent .... but you are buying into the populist message . A vast majority of US corporations do NOT fall into gluten category . This is a lie perpetrated by the left wing to push there agenda ..and bantered about over lattes everywhere. The US has many many many outstanding corporations , who employee millions , give back to there community and make all of our lives better.

I AM SICK OF THE LEFT PUTTING DOWN OR CORPORATIONS ! Are they perfect ? no ... but we have some of the best in world . What the hell is the alternative ? Fannie and Feddy operations ? Ya ,, that went well a trillion dollars in debt and all of the players moved along without a scratch . Or maybe ... Medicaid ? Or social security ? Or how about Medicare ? Which one do you want to hold up as a example of government run programs that we should model our new economy after ?

Free-market capitalism works ...period. Socialism and communism do not work ...

(Though it drives me nuts when people don't know the difference between their, there, and they're) I could not have said it any better. The strict partisan dissention is greatly to blame. I do not follow the preachings of the left or right, nor do I take their agendas as the gospel. I too can not come up with a single government run business/entity that corruption has not destroyed. Modeling anything after any of the government run programs seems absurd.

My $.02

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: TheCol
Posted 2009-10-28 13:33:37 and read 2085 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 139):
when the gluttons on Wall Street wrecked the economy.

I hate to break it to you, but WE ARE the gluttons. If we are to avoid this again, we need to be more responsible with our personal finances. You want to change the status quo? Don't elect a government that will continue the practice.

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 140):
It was the government's fault when it allowed these things to continue by bailing out the very companies that should have failed as a result of it.

Yes, for the most part.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: AGM100
Posted 2009-10-28 13:56:53 and read 2080 times.



Quoting ATCtower (Reply 144):
Though it drives me nuts when people don't know the difference between their, there, and they're

I get typing and just fly though it ... my apologies for driving you off the nuts.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 145):
I hate to break it to you, but WE ARE the gluttons. If we are to avoid this again, we need to be more responsible with our personal finances. You want to change the status quo? Don't elect a government that will continue the practice.

Roger that .. well said

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-28 15:35:08 and read 2066 times.



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 143):
Not a mix .... the government is there to apply rules . They are to assure a fair and free marketplace too uphold protection from monopoly and provide security from foreign and domestic threats to that market place. The government is not supposed to be loaning money , borrowing money , and owning private corporations.

And when they try to develop and apply rules, corporate lobbiests undermine the process - hence the recent financial meltdown.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 143):
What is unfair is the current attitude that corporations are bad., Take the whole change idea ... a change from what ?

In order to buy into the change idea you must first support the idea that America is bad. And that we are going to fundamentally change the whole thing ... too what ? What is the fundamental change from what has built America ? It can only be communism or Marxism .... we are a capitalist country and always have been...so change must mean the opposite . So .. just say that you want socialism , Marxism or communism .... take your pick .

I'll pick some form of european style socialism then - enough capitalism and free market stuff to support economies, but not enough where we place gluttony over caring for our fellow man.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-10-28 15:39:12 and read 2065 times.



Quoting TheCol (Reply 145):
I hate to break it to you, but WE ARE the gluttons

...which is why Communism doesn't work.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-28 15:44:18 and read 2066 times.



Quoting TheCol (Reply 145):
I hate to break it to you, but WE ARE the gluttons. If we are to avoid this again, we need to be more responsible with our personal finances.

I agree, but this is blaming both the slave and the slave-owner for the problem.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 145):
You want to change the status quo? Don't elect a government that will continue the practice.

I agree that government is corrupt in allowing itself to be influenced by corporate lobbiests. I doubt it's a simple matter of electing corruption proof politicians in an environment awash with campaign contributions.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-28 16:31:28 and read 2052 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 149):
I agree, but this is blaming both the slave and the slave-owner for the problem.

Yes, correct, we are the slaves now to the corporations, or close to it. Take for instance, as an example only Boeing going to South Carolina. We all bow to the corporation, even as they attempt to destroy one group of workers well being, we need those jobs, there are no balls anymore, castrated by the corporation with the help of who else, the government, The State in this instance.

Quoting Avent (Reply 149):
agree that government is corrupt in allowing itself to be influenced by corporate lobbiests. I doubt it's a simple matter of electing corruption proof politicians in an environment awash with campaign contributions


Of course, do we think the money contributed to the parties comes from the little guy? Of course not, it is the big money from the big special contributers who currupt our govenrment. I hate to break it to the worshipers of the Status Quo, but it is not Main Street, it is Wall Street and their allies and co-horts who spend the largest amount. Business interests, domestic and foreign who do the most currupting and then cry about it when things go wrong. Then our currupt congress gives tham a blank check. Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. It is us, through our currupt government.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: AGM100
Posted 2009-10-28 16:31:36 and read 2054 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 147):
And when they try to develop and apply rules, corporate lobbiests undermine the process - hence the recent financial meltdown.

Another enemy of true free-market enterprise and capitalism are big multinat corporations. We need to get back too a balance somehow. America has become to beholden to the few large corporations that have the money to play on K street. They are not the face of free market capitalism . They are nothing but extensions of statist power. The current administration is very friendly with many of the big corps ..as are most administrations . And that is where we get screwed . The tax laws do not apply to them , trade laws are taken care of ...they have all the players playing for them.

America needs to reinforce its small medium size business and corporations . The big guys have ruined it and now are sitting back fat while the populists point the finger at us small players. Democrats especially prefer big corporations that can unionize and control large swaths of voters. In a perfect world for Democrats ...there would a few corporations in America. GMoters , Ghouseing , Gfoods , Gclothing , Gbank....etc. The Dems need centralized communities of voters to keep them in power ...free market entrepreneurs like me are their worst enemies ... they can not control us.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-28 16:45:19 and read 2051 times.



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 151):
Another enemy of true free-market enterprise and capitalism are big multinat corporations. We need to get back too a balance somehow. America has become to beholden to the few large corporations that have the money to play on K street. They are not the face of free market capitalism . They are nothing but extensions of statist power. The current administration is very friendly with many of the big corps ..as are most administrations . And that is where we get screwed . The tax laws do not apply to them , trade laws are taken care of ...they have all the players playing for them.

I must say, once again, I am astounded, I agree with this paragraph 100%.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 151):
America needs to reinforce its small medium size business and corporations . The big guys have ruined it and now are sitting back fat while the populists point the finger at us small players

This statement, I also agree with !00% a little rhetoric in the second part. I applaud your statement, now that is thinking. My  twocents 

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-28 23:02:35 and read 2037 times.



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 151):
Another enemy of true free-market enterprise and capitalism are big multinat corporations. We need to get back too a balance somehow. America has become to beholden to the few large corporations that have the money to play on K street. They are not the face of free market capitalism . They are nothing but extensions of statist power.

Huh? Of course they are the face of capitalism. And as for being the extension of statist power, I think you got it exactly backwards.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 151):
America needs to reinforce its small medium size business and corporations . The big guys have ruined it and now ...

So they are corporations after all, and now you express concern over how they ruined it?

Doesn't this beg the question of why you support them in such an absolutist fashion? Afterall you phrased things in terms of communism and socialism (and I assume you mean extreme soviet style) as being the only possible alternatives.

I also don't buy your notion that small corporations and businesses are necessarily more virtuous than the giant corporations. It seems to me most giants started out small, and most small ones dream of being large. As far as I'm concerned, businesses and corporations are just doing what they are designed to do. In someways, it makes as much sense to adore the wolf pups but condemn the adults for killing. This is the capitalist society's dilemma - it has enmeshed itself with gluttony and greed as primary defining characteristics.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: AGM100
Posted 2009-10-29 10:49:22 and read 2027 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 153):
This is the capitalist society's dilemma - it has enmeshed itself with gluttony and greed as primary defining characteristics.

What is the alternative ? Have the government take 65% of your earnings and give it too a drug user in a slum somewhere or buy houses for people who cant afford them ? Is that what the alternative is ?

Thank goodness for gluttony and greed .... we love those first class passengers ! We love the market created by those who want expensive products .... We want more of them! Business Jets , Yachts , Beach houses , champagne , big hotels , Day Spas.. Rolex's and diamonds ...

I want every country to have citizens , lots of them , that can buy whatever they want . Imagine the productivity peace and growth that would occur if every country had real free-markets and upwardly mobile citizens ....

As far as the big too big too fail corporations .... I am suspicious of them. Once a company gets that large it becomes bloated wasteful and cumbersome. Companies that large are able to absorb huge losses and still stay in business , that is a reason for concern. I have worked for them ,. I have seen the waste and loss of productivity . I have also seen there squadrons of lawyers working round the clock to cut there tax burden down to "0". Small or mid-size companies are far better for our society ...at least in my experience.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-29 12:21:51 and read 2022 times.



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 154):
What is the alternative ? Have the government take 65% of your earnings and give it too a drug user in a slum somewhere or buy houses for people who cant afford them ? Is that what the alternative is ?

First of all, why do you care what the percentage is as long as there is a perceived justifiable benefit? What do you care if the multi-millionaires or CEOs are taxed at extreme rates? They'll still take home phenomenal paychecks. So, why should you care?

Let me float a theory I have about all of this... I think the culuture of gluttony is petrified that at some point the average american will wake up one day and realize they don't need the junk they spend their lives slaving at work for. They might realize that if they paid more in taxes and in exchange had things like universal healthcare, and guaranteed college educations for their children, they'd just say 'screw-it' and just slow down and enjoy life more; they'd be less obsessed with accumulating wealth to avoid bankruptcy from medical expenses, or to pay for their kid's education. They would be a little less susceptible to advertising and this would totally threaten the gluttons because there would be a collapse of the house of cards and this would drive a rational debate over what people reelay need and on how did such a wealthy nation end up with success being measured through consumption. It might mean americans demand a 4 day work week so they can spend more of their lives outside of work. I like this kind of alternative.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 154):
Thank goodness for gluttony and greed .... we love those first class passengers ! We love the market created by those who want expensive products .... We want more of them! Business Jets , Yachts , Beach houses , champagne , big hotels , Day Spas.. Rolex's and diamonds ....

Yep, they had lots of that kind of stuff before the overthrow of the french monarchy and the overthrow of the czars in russia, and the communist revolution in china.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: AGM100
Posted 2009-10-29 15:08:11 and read 2012 times.



Quoting Avent (Reply 155):
Yep, they had lots of that kind of stuff before the overthrow of the french monarchy and the overthrow of the czars in russia, and the communist revolution in china.

NO... The upper crust elites did. America is not like any of those examples.... we have common folk's who work hard ..play it smart and live a very very good life. You don't have to be born into it , you don't have to be appointed to it ... you can start with nothing and get there.

I do however like your point that material things will not make you happy and at peace with yourself. But with the decline of religious activity , and the activism of left against it .. it is my opinion that it has been replaced in some ways by , sex , drugs and getting rich . That is the down side of freedom .... and also in the end brings the free-market down. Like all parts of humanity ... what begins as a positive uplifting thing ..usually ends up being corrupted and eventually destroyed.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-29 16:35:59 and read 2000 times.



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 156):
NO... The upper crust elites did. America is not like any of those examples.... we have common folk's who work hard ..play it smart and live a very very good life. You don't have to be born into it , you don't have to be appointed to it ... you can start with nothing and get there.

I feel like i'm reading "Capitalism made Simple for Young Children." I think you're overstating things just a tad here...

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 156):
I do however like your point that material things will not make you happy and at peace with yourself.

Ok, an acknowledgement that materialism is less than ideal,

followed by an attempt to blame leftists for all that's evil - in spite of the crass materialistic culture cultivated by Capitalism...

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 156):
But with the decline of religious activity , and the activism of left against it .. it is my opinion that it has been replaced in some ways by , sex , drugs and getting rich .

which also includes criticism of getting rich,,,

Is, frankly, very strange since you were previously drooling over gluttony and materialism:

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 154):
Thank goodness for gluttony and greed .... we love those first class passengers ! We love the market created by those who want expensive products .... We want more of them! Business Jets , Yachts , Beach houses , champagne , big hotels , Day Spas.. Rolex's and diamonds ...

I want every country to have citizens , lots of them , that can buy whatever they want . Imagine the productivity peace and growth that would occur if every country had real free-markets and upwardly mobile citizens ....

I wonder which way the winds will blow tomorrow...

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: WarRI1
Posted 2009-10-29 16:58:53 and read 1999 times.



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 152):
They are nothing but extensions of statist power. The current administration is very friendly with many of the big corps ..as

Hmm, obviously I missed something when I said 100% agreement. What the hell is statist power anyway? NO!, we are not extensions of statist power, we are as anti-statist power as you are. I sure hope I used that correctly. Sounds like Socialism to me  Wink

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Baroque
Posted 2009-10-29 19:21:34 and read 1994 times.



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 156):
NO... The upper crust elites did. America is not like any of those examples.... we have common folk's who work hard ..play it smart and live a very very good life. You don't have to be born into it , you don't have to be appointed to it ... you can start with nothing and get there.

Perhaps in with the other chunks of wisdom to explain this that and the other facet of the Capitalist system, you can let us poor benighted sods in the rest of the world know why it is OK in the Murcan system to take on a massive mortgage and be able to walk out on the debt for no more reason than it is now inconvenient.

You guys keep lecturing us about our suicidal attempts at Socialism while all the while carrying on a mortgage system that cries out lack of normal responsibility from the local church watch tower. And you do it while the financial crisis caused by this strange and irresponsible behaviour washes around the parts of the world where we are much more socially responsible with our loan obligations.

Funny thing that.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Baroque
Posted 2009-10-30 02:24:23 and read 1972 times.

Transcript of interview with Moore at

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/business/items/200910/s2728183.htm

And NO, I rather doubt Ali Moore is any relation of Michael Moore!! Entirely different shape you know.

ALI MOORE: Michael Moore joined me from Michigan. A warning: some may find some of his language offensive.

Michael Moore, welcome to Lateline Business.

MICHAEL MOORE: Thank you - thank you for having me.

ALI MOORE: You started working on this film before the economy collapsed; filming began in the American spring of 2008. What was the story you set out to tell?

MICHAEL MOORE: Well, I wanted to ... I really wanted to tell a story I have been telling for 20 years in all my movies, which is how is it that the people at the top who have the most money in a democracy get to call all the shots, when it's supposed to be we all are supposed to have this equal say in things. It just is always - I always wondered why it is. Why the little guy doesn't really have much say considering it's a democracy. So I set out to explore that concept. I think we have always believed that capitalism and democracy go hand in hand with each other, and I guess I began to wonder, maybe, that's not true. That actually they are opposites because capitalism benefits the few, not the many. Whereas democracy is about the many.

ALI MOORE: You call capitalism a system of legalised greed; is the message that you can fix it or you have to replace it? And if you have to replace it, what do you replace it with?

MICHAEL MOORE: I think it's beyond fixing. I think it's gotten so bastardised to the point where it will be impossible now to go back to anything resembling what seemed like maybe a good idea. The old, old style of capitalism or free enterprise: I think that has gone.

I think the only way to deal with this is essentially to eliminate it and come up with a new economic system that speaks to the 21st Century, and to quit having this stupid debate of capitalism versus socialism: 15 or 16th Century philosophy versus a 19th century philosophy. We are in the 21st Century; we need to come up with something that relates to what we are going through right now.

I am not an economist but what I would ask for is that whatever we come up with have two basic things in its foundation. Number one: democracy. In other words, we the people control the economy. And number two: a moral and ethical core where no business decision gets made without first asking the question, "Is this for the common good?"

..... Here is the bit Ali Moore warned about:

Barack Obama: this is who he is. He's a guy that's inherited a huge mess. Not just one mess; we are in two wars; we have got an economy that's collapsed; we have got $50 million with no health care. I can go on and on ... and now he's supposed to fix this.

You know, it's like, "Let's send the black guy in to clean up the mess." I love it when he said that the other week. “Don't criticise me for holding the mop. You made the mess - I was willing to come in and pick up the mop, so I'm trying to mop up your mess now. So shut the fuck up.”
....
MICHAEL MOORE: Well, because of what you said. He's got Summers and Geithner and Ruben there. In other words, he may have hired the wrong people. That's my take on it. I don't think it's because he's up to anything bad or evil. I just think Democrats hadn't been in power so long; he just went to the last guys that were around. Well those guys actually helped to create the mess we're in.


Hope the ABC will edit that $50 million to 50 million!!

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: AGM100
Posted 2009-10-30 09:49:43 and read 1953 times.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 159):
You guys keep lecturing us about our suicidal attempts at Socialism

Lecturing ?? I was just carrying on a conversation and throwing out opinions . In my opinion the world would be a better place if everyone lived in a free-market system . Does not mean I am right about it ?... just my opinion.

Quoting Avent (Reply 157):
Is, frankly, very strange since you were previously drooling over gluttony and materialism:

Look , I don't want to create laws that restrict people from becoming billionaires if they want too. I can honestly say I am not like that . I live a simple life , I am not in " unnecessary" debt. I live modestly even though I could do allot more. I understand that material stuff does not make you happy . But I don't want to hold back someone who loves to buy a $50K gold watch. Like everything we do there are extremes .. I don't prescribe to gluttony in my own life I was just giving my idea of why we have those people in our society now.

There is a bad side to everything ... and yes capitalism has a bad side . But the upside is far far better than socialism ... in my opinion.

Topic: RE: Captitalism Movie By Michael Moore
Username: Avent
Posted 2009-10-30 11:14:02 and read 1943 times.



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 161):
There is a bad side to everything ... and yes capitalism has a bad side . But the upside is far far better than socialism ... in my opinion.

And I can agree with this since it means there is room to negotiate and all positions are not nailed down.


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