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Topic: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-02-11 18:45:32 and read 5285 times.

CNN World has an article on why France has been voted the best country in the world to live in. The 'live to work' vs 'work to live' has a lot to do with it...

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe...nce.quality.life/index.html?hpt=C2

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: MoltenRock
Posted 2010-02-11 19:31:25 and read 5242 times.

I love the south of France, Paris.....not so much, it's ok. The Mercer ratings for best quality of life which came out a few months ago is a good tool/measurement too.

http://www.mercer.com/referenceconte...5#Top_50_cities:_Quality_of_living

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: Aaron747
Posted 2010-02-11 19:36:46 and read 5231 times.

Quoting comorin (Thread starter):
CNN World has an article on why France has been voted the best country in the world to live in.

If you're white and married to a French person, sure. Same goes for many other countries on the list. Try being a low income Maori youth in New Zealand.

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2010-02-11 19:43:52 and read 5226 times.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
Try being a low income Maori youth in New Zealand.

It's not only the low income Maori youth IMHO, it could easily be said for low income whites too.
And not just in NZ, you could argue the point for most countries around the world.

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2010-02-11 20:07:05 and read 5199 times.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
Try being a low income Maori youth in New Zealand.

There are far more European and Pacific Island kiwis with low incomes than Maori. Maori get the same education as the rest of us in NZ, they have the same opportunities as everyone else in NZ (and some more due to being Maori) if they fail then that's there problem, same as anyone else in NZ, being a failure has nothing to do with being Maori unless you are Maori then you blame everyone else in NZ rather than look to your own inadequacies.

The Norwegians will be pissed, they failed to make the top 10.

Following France in the top ten are Australia, Switzerland, Germany, New Zealand, Luxembourg, the U.S., Belgium, Canada and Italy, in that order.

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: Aaron747
Posted 2010-02-11 20:17:13 and read 5189 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 6):
being a failure has nothing to do with being Maori unless you are Maori then you blame everyone else in NZ rather than look to your own inadequacies.

Friend of mine here (white Kiwi) who grew up in a rough part of Auckland says that mentality is a direct result of growing up around others who are downtrodden. Such things should not be referred to as 'inadequacies'. If anything they need someone to show them how to overcome their surroundings.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 6):
and some more due to being Maori

Perhaps true in the tourist or fishing industries but I can't imagine how else that would apply unless there are a lot of Maori art curator positions out there.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 6):
Following France in the top ten are Australia, Switzerland, Germany, New Zealand, Luxembourg, the U.S., Belgium, Canada and Italy, in that order.

Parts of the US are indeed great, but as a whole it doesn't belong anywhere on this list, period. The quality of life for millions in our largest cities and an immigration policy that supports a vast working underclass of illegal residents that can't speak English is enough to be a disqualifier.

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: VonRichtofen
Posted 2010-02-11 20:31:11 and read 5182 times.

Quoting comorin (Thread starter):
The 'live to work' vs 'work to live' has a lot to do with it...

This is my biggest problem with life in North America. We don't live enough. Look how many people don't even utilize all of our paltry 2 weeks vacation we're entitled too. We live to work, rather than work to live. We have it backwards.

But hey, we have more cars than they do  


If any political party here made increasing minimum paid vacation time (which is a health issue IMO) part of their platform they'd have my vote hands down.

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2010-02-11 21:01:48 and read 5160 times.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 7):
Such things should not be referred to as 'inadequacies'. If anything they need someone to show them how to overcome their surroundings.

I would have thought that there were plenty of great examples of people in NZ to show them how to overcome their surroundings.I think NZ is probably one of the few countries where you can work your way up the ladder so to speak and make something of yourself.

[Edited 2010-02-11 21:25:01]

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2010-02-11 21:21:38 and read 5145 times.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 7):
Such things should not be referred to as 'inadequacies'. If anything they need someone to show them how to overcome their surroundings.

That's complete BS, it's up to the individual to make there own choices in life, if you make the wrong choices and end up in a dumpster that's you fault, in NZ everyone has the opportunity to make something of themselves.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 7):
Perhaps true in the tourist or fishing industries but I can't imagine how else that would apply unless there are a lot of Maori art curator positions out there.

You also have a better chance getting into the following professions, Police, Law, Medical due to affirmative action policies if you are Maori,

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
I would have thought that there were plenty of great examples people in NZ to show them how to overcome their surroundings.I think NZ is probably one of the few countries where you can work your way up the ladder so to speak and make something of yourself.

Completely true, our richest man Graeme Hart (also richest in Australasia, take that Aussie) left school at 15 to become a tow truck driver and panle beater, he's now worth 5 billion USD.

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: francoflier
Posted 2010-02-11 21:33:35 and read 5135 times.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
If you're white and married to a French person, sure. Same goes for many other countries on the list.

Not completely untrue, but then, as opposed to where?

Every country in the world has to deal with inequalties, the integration of minorities and taking care of low/no income citizens, in varying degrees.

But being provided a high quality and free education and health care is a very good start to give everybody a fighting chance at obtaining a good life even if you weren't born into one. Which doesn't mean it is easy for everyone as some grow up in very difficult conditions and are surrounded by a 'self destructive' mentality, but at least the opportunity is there.

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2010-02-11 22:23:16 and read 5122 times.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 11):
But being provided a high quality and free education and health care is a very good start to give everybody a fighting chance at obtaining a good life even if you weren't born into one.

Exactly,

Just look at the Governor General of NewZealand, Sir Anand Satyanand.

He was born in NZ to anglo Fiji, anglo Indian parents from a humble start he started Uni doing Medicine and then went to law.

Look where he is now.

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: Aaron747
Posted 2010-02-11 23:27:23 and read 5091 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 8):

You also have a better chance getting into the following professions, Police, Law, Medical due to affirmative action policies if you are Maori

Affirmative action is not the way to get it done. I'm totally opposed to such policies in the US for they inevitably result in reverse discrimination and do more harm to depressed communities in the long-term than good.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 8):
That's complete BS, it's up to the individual to make there own choices in life, if you make the wrong choices and end up in a dumpster that's you fault

Generally speaking, yes, but people with poor role models growing up are not likely to make good choices - so who will show them what's possible?

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: FlyMIA
Posted 2010-02-12 02:26:36 and read 5047 times.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 6):
This is my biggest problem with life in North America. We don't live enough. Look how many people don't even utilize all of our paltry 2 weeks vacation we're entitled too. We live to work, rather than work to live. We have it backwards.

I agree one problem is not enough vacation time and also people not even using vacation time. But another problem I see is people doing something as a career they do not even want to do. Do something you love and going to work will be a joy. Sure not everyone has a choice but to many people just pick a job for money and not for enjoying it.

As for France great place to live if you are white and french. http://academic.udayton.edu/race/06h...hts/georegions/Europe/France01.htm

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2010-02-12 02:44:37 and read 5035 times.

France is a great place to live if you can manage the heavy bureaucracy without having a nervous breakdown 

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: kaitak
Posted 2010-02-12 04:55:15 and read 4984 times.

The Mercer list is very interesting, but a lot of the cities are bunched together, so it's fairly hard to pick between them; one city/country might be better in one area, but not so good in others; if what it does well suits you/your expectations, then that's great. As for the CNN report on Paris, sure it's great if you're expecting or if you're into fine wines and dinner on the banks of the Seine, but not everyone wants /needs that.

Does anyone have the full list that the CNN report refers to?

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2010-02-12 06:29:37 and read 4916 times.

Were any French Arabs asked this?

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: MD11Engineer
Posted 2010-02-12 06:40:45 and read 4903 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
Were any French Arabs asked this?

Not all French Arabs live in highrise slums outside the big cities and live of social welfare. Quitr a few integrated themselves into the french society and became successful.
The (Arab Muslim) grandfather of a friend came over from Algeria to southern France in the 1930s and started a successful business dealing with lady´s fashions. He later married a French woman and had a daughter, who followed him in her choice of profession. She in turn married a German guy in the 1960s and moved to FRA to run her own boutique. Their son is now my age and went into radio and communications technology development.

Same in Germany with many successful Turkish or Arab immigrants. They work hard, get education, intgrate themselves into the mainstream society (without forgetting their cultural roots, but they are intelligent to know what of their background is ballast to be dropped and what helps them to get ahead) and move out from the ghettoes as soon as they have enough money saved. The one thing is tht you don´t hear much about them. They live in middleclass to rich neighbourhoods and are just normal, respected citizens.
On the other hand many of those in the ghettoes have a strong entitlement attitude and cause trouble, which you see in the news.
I knew a Turkish gynaecologist of Kurdish background in Berlin, who moved into a big villa in a richer district of Berlin. He had his own clinic in one of the ghetto areas, where he could make use of his language knowledge, but was married to a German woman, who at the time I knew them (20 years ago) was also studying human medicine. They had a child together.

Also a cousin of my Sierra Leonian ex-wife is a successful MD. He graduated from the Lumumba University in Moscow (in the 1960s-1970s the Soviet union tried to bring third world countries to her side by offering free university education to their citizens). Instead of returning to Sierra Leone, after he graduated, he went to Germany, where there existed a shortage of doctors at this time. He started working in a hospital, saved his money and eventually started his own clinic in Düsseldorf. He now employs several nurses, among them several ethnic Germans and lives with his wife (a former nurse from Ghana, whom he met in Germany) and children in a nice house in Oberhausen. His oldest children are going to university. This is strongly in contrast to my ex-wife, who came to Germany as a fake asylum seeker with a huge attitude that she was entiteled to everything without ever having to work for it.

Or look at my Filipina girlfriend. She got hired to Ireland as a nurse. Ovewr ten years she managed to become assistant matron (assistant chief nurse, this means second in command) of a posh nursing home. Several other Filipina nurses, who came to Irelan with her, have reached management positions as well.

Jan

[Edited 2010-02-12 06:57:01]

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2010-02-12 07:31:08 and read 4859 times.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):
Not all French Arabs live in highrise slums outside the big cities and live of social welfare.

Of course. But the whole....

Quoting comorin (Thread starter):
The 'live to work' vs 'work to live' has a lot to do with it...

...is only great if you can get the work to begin with

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 6):
But hey, we have more cars than they do

Materialism is not something I understand, even though it's blatantly, aggravatingly first and foremost in peoples' minds in most of the places I've lived like South Florida and Texas.

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2010-02-12 08:17:25 and read 4831 times.

I see from the actual site that Sweden got 0 points on the cost of living, which must be an error. Hilarious whether climate in Switzerland is worth 78 or 77 points, I'd like to see that expert panel.

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: MD11Engineer
Posted 2010-02-12 08:42:32 and read 4810 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):
Not all French Arabs live in highrise slums outside the big cities and live of social welfare.

Of course. But the whole....

Quoting comorin (Thread starter):
The 'live to work' vs 'work to live' has a lot to do with it...

...is only great if you can get the work to begin with

I just read an article in this week´s German Spiegel magazine, a moderate left paper, about Berlin´s district of Neukölln, which besides having a high number of immigrants, mainly from Turkey, also has the highest number of recepients of social welfare, sometimes in the third generation (this is BTW the district, where the gynaecologist I mentioned earlier has his clinic. I´ve been living in this district myself, when I still was a college student, so I know the area).
The problem is that among a certain group of younger immigrants, those with a less educated background, there exists a "gangster mentality", which considers somebody, who is working 8 hours a day 5 days a week as a "victim", who doesn´t deserve respect. The same applies to those teenagers who pay attention in school. "Respected" are those who play the welfare system and use their time to earn money from petty or not so petty crime.
So somebody who is on the dole (and doesn´t even want to get a job), but deals drugs or steals cars on the side, and therefore has more cash in his pocket, drives a bigger car and has access to girls, who fancy such a type.
If he has a certain will to physically fight anybody whom he considers not to treat him with "respect" or whom he considers a "victim" (those weaker than himself or those doing an honest job), he is considered the "king" on the block.
Berlin has hundreds of e.g. Turkish owned businesses, from mom and pop grocery stores to building contractors, factories, and at the upper end doctors and lawyers. It should not be a problem for the youngsters to get a job in these, if they are willing to learn and work hard, but this will is often missing (also among the younger German population). A recent poll among teenagers in this district showed that a large number considered their future job to be "Hartzers" (slang for dole recepients, after a guy named Hartz, who modified the system under Schroeder).

Interestingly immigrants from East Asia (Chinese, Vietnamese, Filipinos, Thai, Indonesians) don´t turn up in the negative statistics.

Jan

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-02-12 08:50:52 and read 4806 times.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
Interestingly immigrants from East Asia (Chinese, Vietnamese, Filipinos, Thai, Indonesians) don´t turn up in the negative statistics

   I wonder why this is so, as it is true wherever they go. You should add South Asians to this list. When was the last time anyone got mugged by a Gujarati?

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: Aaron747
Posted 2010-02-12 08:53:50 and read 4804 times.

Quoting comorin (Reply 20):
I wonder why this is so, as it is true wherever they go

Not entirely true. One need only visit certain parts of San Francisco and the East Bay Area to witness Vietnamese and Hmong gangs in action.

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2010-02-12 11:20:50 and read 4744 times.

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 12):
As for France great place to live if you are white and french.

Well it must also be a pretty nice place for those who are not white or French because they sure as hell aren't going back to where they came from.

Besides why should the French make allowances for those who aren't French, it is their country.

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: luckyone
Posted 2010-02-12 11:33:43 and read 4729 times.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 21):
Not entirely true. One need only visit certain parts of San Francisco and the East Bay Area to witness Vietnamese and Hmong gangs in action.

True, but on the whole East Asian cultures tend to have more of a respect/face-saving/work hard mentality.

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: Fabo
Posted 2010-02-12 11:48:39 and read 4722 times.

Yep. Vietnamese gangs are well-known around here. Thing is, they tend to keep their things within themselves.

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: MD11Engineer
Posted 2010-02-12 12:07:07 and read 4746 times.

We had some issues with Vietnamese mafia during the first few years after the collapse of the GDR. The West German government at first refused to grandfather the residence and work permits issued by the GDR for contract workers from fellow socialist countries, like Vietnam, Mongolia, Cuba, Angola and Mocambique. The people got stuck in a legal limbo. from one day to the next they moved in status from having a residence and work permit to being people just accepted in Germany without being allowed to work and no (or limited) access to social services.
This opportunity was used by Vietnamese mafia gangs, which smuggled, together with the Russian and Polish mafias, illegal (untaxed) cigarettes into Germany. The unemployed Vietnamese, needing money, were used as street vendors by the mafia gangs, which ruled them with an iron fist, killing at first membewrs of the other gangs, which tried to poach in their territories. As long it was just gangsters killing each other, not much progress was made by the German police. Obviously it is pretty much impossible for German cops to infilitrate a Vietnamese gang, also Vietnamese translators in court and witnesses were threatened with harm to their families still in Vietnam. Little progress was made, and about every week there were news about dead Vietnamese having been found in some forest or abandoned buildings with their hands tied behind their backs, having been shot execution style.
But eventually the turf war between the two biggest gangs reached the level of the street vendors. A street vendor was kidnapped by members of a rival gang. His wife, who knew where he was being held, approached the German police, who raided the apartment with a SWAT team. They not only freed the kidnapped man, but also caught several higher level gangsters including the gang boss redhanded and managed to confiscate several handguns, which forensic test proved to have been used in previously unsolved murder cases. They also could identify the owners of the guns.
With the gang boss and his enforcers behind bars, there wre suddenly a lot of Vietnamese street vendors willing to testify against the senior members of this gang and other gangs. Several highlevel criminals got arrested and sentenced to long prison terms including life for murder.
Also the German government changed it´s immigration policy and issued residence and work permits to those immigrants who came here under the old East German regulations, so most found themselves back in legal jobs.
I haven´t heard about any organised crime activity from Vietnamese since then.
Vietnamese street gangs were never an issue here.

Jan

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: OA260
Posted 2010-02-12 13:14:53 and read 4720 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
Switzerland

Would love to live in Zurich or Vienna if I had to move from Ireland.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
Were any French Arabs asked this?

I guess its the same in most countries. You can be happy or sad in every country depending on your financial circumstances.

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: RAFVC10
Posted 2010-02-13 03:31:24 and read 4618 times.

Quoting comorin (Thread starter):
CNN World has an article on why France has been voted the best country in the world to live in. The 'live to work' vs 'work to live' has a lot to do with it...



Sincerely, I think that the journalist that wrote this article did not stayed at Spain... great food, unforgettable beaches, sunny country and wonderful people...

And if I speak about Barcelona... I will not have words to describe it.

But opinions are opinions.

Gerard

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2010-02-13 08:41:11 and read 4543 times.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 21):

Not entirely true. One need only visit certain parts of San Francisco and the East Bay Area to witness Vietnamese and Hmong gangs in action.

Yes, but to meet a Gujarati, one must go to the hospital and ask for Dr. Gupta.  

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-02-13 09:06:10 and read 4519 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 28):
Yes, but to meet a Gujarati, one must go to the hospital and ask for Dr. Gupta.

Ha ha! Actually, you need to go to a Hos-patel.

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: OzGlobal
Posted 2010-02-15 10:53:55 and read 4348 times.

Here are the survey links from the American Magazine, International Living:



http://www.internationalliving.com/I...her-Resources/quality-of-life-2010

http://www1.internationalliving.com/qofl2010/

and CNN comment:

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/eu.../11/france.quality.life/index.html

Topic: RE: France: Best Country To Live In The World
Username: tbar220
Posted 2010-02-16 06:29:14 and read 4251 times.

I have always wanted to visit France, this is giving me more incentive to do so.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 6):

This is my biggest problem with life in North America. We don't live enough. Look how many people don't even utilize all of our paltry 2 weeks vacation we're entitled too. We live to work, rather than work to live. We have it backwards.

We do indeed. I work in a profession that I love (middle school teacher). However the mentality is come to work even if you are feeling really sick. "Have to make a difference for these kids." We also have 10 vacation days, but there is also the stipulation that a teacher needs to be present 97% of the 180 school days. So unless my math is incorrect, there is no way I can take all 10 of my vacation days while hitting the 97% benchmark.

Granted, I do get seasonal vacations when there is no school. Yet I only get paid 32.5 hours a week.... now this is a whole other thread that I won't be getting into.


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