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Topic: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: AGM100
Posted 2010-03-15 09:32:43 and read 2940 times.

If you are a political watcher ...this is really a unprecidented week we are heading into. Watching the politcal shows over the weekend its easy to see that gloves are off and brass knuckles are on.

For me all I needed to hear was Axelrods comments when asked about the upcoming political fight in November. Essentialy he said , once this becomes law and people are getting free health services ... lets see the republicans take that away. " Go ahead make my day " ....

This is the plan .... its not about healthcare its about power. The more dependents they have the more power they have.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/poli...or_health_plan_to_clear_congr.html


Kind of Ironic .... the Dems are twisting every possible direction in order to please everyone to try to get this passed. Now they are trying to figure out how to convince blue dogs that abortion is not included..... what a crack . Like the President had too do to get elected .... trying to stretch twist and contort the message to hide the real issue.

I believe that it will "pass" .... they will get the votes either for the "slaughter ammendment" or the reconciliation bill. Both are lame and disgustingly cowardly ... but a bill must get to the presidents desk for signature. The band is qued .... this is going to be good.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: NIKV69
Posted 2010-03-15 11:33:42 and read 2899 times.

Sure is, I am counting the days till Reid makes that phone call congratulatiing the new GOP senator in Nevada this November. It's been a long time coming and he certainly won't be alone.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2010-03-15 11:44:49 and read 2879 times.

Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):

This is the plan .... its not about healthcare its about power. The more dependents they have the more power they have.

At least he is honest.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-15 13:35:40 and read 2841 times.

I believe what David Axelrod understands is that repealing health care after experienced by the public will be as politically easy as repealing Medicare.

While there are a lot of conservatives who genuinely believe that Medicare should be shut down you'll never see them campaign on that termination.

And while there has been a lot of FUD on health care reform.

As for the political side of reform, I can see the potential of a defeat as being an albatross around the Republican's neck. They have worked hard to shape public opinion, but will probably find they get both the credit and the blame for a lack of achievement. Currently their bet is that there will be more credit than blame. We'll see.

The November elections will be a "make my day" election for one side or the other, but so will elections for the next 10 years. Health care has simply exploded beyond management these days and there is either real reform or some major changes to the political system down the road.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: fr8mech
Posted 2010-03-15 17:55:12 and read 2779 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 3):
I believe what David Axelrod understands is that repealing health care after experienced by the public will be as politically easy as repealing Medicare.

Actually, I think it will be easy to put a bill on the President's desk to repeal the law...the only thing that goes into effect for the first 4 years is...wait for it...new taxes.

But he will not sign a bill repealing the law. And sadly, the GOP won't have enough seats in The Senate to override the veto. But I say, send the bill to repeal the law to him every week attached to anything else he wants.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
At least he is honest.

No, he's being truthful. There's a difference.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 3):
albatross

No, the albatross will hang around the neck of anyone who votes yea to this monstrosity.

I still don't think it will pass. Write your congressman. Visit or call. especially if he's on the fence. Unfortunately, mine is a card carrying member of the left elite. But, I still bug him with emails.

Just a quick anecdote that a friend shot out on FB:

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had once failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan".
All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A...
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little. The second test average was a D! No one was happy.
When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.
All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.
Could not be any simpler than that. (Please pass this on)
Remember, there is a test coming up. The mid-term election in 2010!

The mid-term is coming, but there are a couple of quizzes out there.

[Edited 2010-03-15 17:58:49]

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: mirrodie
Posted 2010-03-15 18:06:46 and read 2757 times.

Looks like it is really "it" and It is scary. Having Pelosi tell us that the thing is going ot be signed first and then read later? I mean, that is ridiculous.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: StuckInCA
Posted 2010-03-15 21:21:22 and read 2726 times.

I don't even understand the purpose of this thread. You made no point. No assertion. Only spewed a little.

And the thread title? Do you mean that like.... if a kid socked you in the chin and you said "is that it?" If so, then why all the whining leading up to it?

I dunno. I'm confused. I guess people just like to complain. Myself included.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: AGM100
Posted 2010-03-16 07:18:09 and read 2685 times.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
At least he is honest.

Well you have a point their .... man I hope the people can see this through this and get involved.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 6):
I dunno. I'm confused. I guess people just like to complain. Myself included.

Point taken .... I am frustrated . The the issue has evolved almost daily for the past year. Every week some new idea or manuever comes to light ... the dead line of the 18th is approaching and no final bill has been seen by the voting members. As noted yesterday by a democrat congressman on a radio interview ... "We have no bill.... We have no language to review and vote on".. " right now we are unsure what the language is " Its unbelievable that a vote is happening on the 18th then!

So what will be sent to the President is a huge mystery at this point .... thats a very very frightening idea in our republic.

I guess the point of this thread is to rant about the process and how our governing structure is being radicaly unwound.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: fr8mech
Posted 2010-03-16 07:37:25 and read 2671 times.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
Every week some new idea or manuever comes to light ...

See, this is what frustrate me. Why all the manuevers and shifting of strategy? It's because it can't be done the correct way. Too many people don't want this bill. But the gang up there has invested all their political capital in this and they feel if it's not law, they will have no power left. But they don't see the forest...

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: arrow
Posted 2010-03-16 09:43:47 and read 2650 times.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 4):
All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.

If that professor taught at my university, I'd first do a credentials check to see if he went to school anywhere, or actually had the degrees he claimed to have. Assuming he is legit, I'd then check his medical records to see if maybe he had a mild stroke somewhere along the line that damaged his cognitive abilities, or rendered him incapable of reasoning. Failing all that, I'd just fire him for incompetence and apologize profusely to his students.

I see variations on these little anti-socialism homilies all the time -- I have a U.S. relative who routinely sends them to me (this one included), and many of them relate to farmers with chickens and egg production. Needless to say, I don't consider her too bright either. What they all lack (surprise, surprise) is any relationship to a country anywhere in the world that works like this -- including the old defunct state capitalism countries often labelled inaccurately as "communist." But, as my signature says, never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Funny how all this anti-socialism boogeyman stuff comes mostly from Americans who, clearly, are completely ignorant about just how much socialism already exists in the US -- and would likely be appalled at any suggestion that it be dismantled. For example:

1. The US military -- One of the biggest, and costliest, examples of socialism anywhere in the world. Privatize the damn thing and let people build castles with moats around them, at their own expense. Can't afford a castle? Tough beans; why should I have to fork over my hard-earned dollars to protect your house.

2. Police, CIA, FBI, TSA -- see #1.

3. Highway/bridges,roads, etc. -- What an incredible drain on the economy! I resent my tax dollars going to help build/repair a road between Scranton and Pittsburgh when I live in Gettysburg! And speaking of Gettysburg, why should I have to pay to run that damn battlefield monument and maintain the cemetery. My relatives aren't buried there. And that traffic light on the corner? Let the guy whose house is on the corner pay for it, I don't need it.

4. Federal Drug Administration -- Jeez, what a waste of my money! These guys monitor, test and approve tens of thousands of drugs that I'll never buy or need. You want a check on that new cancer drug? Pay for it yourself.

5. Air transportation system/airports -- Why the hell should my tax money help support all this stuff? I never fly, so I could care less if these planes don't have a place to land, or run into each other in the sky. If I decide to fly,give me a choice -- I'll go with the low-cost carrier that can take me from A to B and back for $50 by cutting corners on maintenance and hiring students to fly the planes. That FAA is just another commie/leftie/pinko plot to undermine America.

6. Education -- I don't have kids; you jerks who decided of your own free will to procreate can pay for all that.

Funny -- you're all in a knot over "socialized" health care when your existing system is almost as socialized as the ones you are railing against. Public health expenditures in the US already comprise 56% of total spending, and the OECD says that on a per capita basis, that's about what comparable countries with universal health care pay for the entire system -- and for better outcomes. The "private" part of US healthcare adds another 40% and puts your per capita health expenditures up into the stratosphere. And you like this system???

God knows if Obamacare can fix your troubles -- I suspect not because it's been so watered down to placate all those socialism haters that it will simply perpetuate all the existing problems and add a few more to boot. Worst of both worlds it looks like.

End of rant.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: EA772LR
Posted 2010-03-16 09:59:28 and read 2639 times.

Quoting arrow (Reply 9):
God knows if Obamacare can fix your troubles -- I suspect not because it's been so watered down to placate all those socialism haters that it will simply perpetuate all the existing problems and add a few more to boot. Worst of both worlds it looks like.

How bout for starters we just can't afford an entire bill right now. How bout addressing health care in steps. Smaller less expensive bills spread over several years? That'd be a start. The problem is, Obama has another agenda, and he knows he's got limited time to implement it. So he's pushing hard to ram down everything he can. If you believe Obama has nothing but the best intentions for America, then I've got some beach front property in the Gobi Desert. For anyone to support what the Democrats have proposed here means they're either naive, ignorant, or just plain stupid. The numbers in this bill don't work. Not even by a long shot. Hell, how many congressman/women and senators even know what the hell is in the bill?

And just because America has been on a steady road towards a socialized society, doesn't mean that we're not or can't be rightfully skeptical of a man who has just put us in overdrive with the pedal to the floor towards it.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2010-03-16 10:05:33 and read 2638 times.

This surfaced in a Beckham thread. I've not seen it before, perhaps some have.

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo133/sfeboyd/HealthcareCostsPercentGDP.jpg

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2010-03-16 10:42:26 and read 2614 times.

Quoting arrow (Reply 9):
1. The US military -- One of the biggest, and costliest, examples of socialism anywhere in the world. Privatize the damn thing and let people build castles with moats around them, at their own expense. Can't afford a castle? Tough beans; why should I have to fork over my hard-earned dollars to protect your house.

Some things need to be run by the government unfortunately. Can you imagine a privatived military? Oh boy...

Health care, I don't think, is one of them. Sure it has its problems, but it is a lot cheaper to fix the system rather than expensively revamp the whole thing.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2010-03-16 10:48:41 and read 2610 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 12):
Some things need to be run by the government unfortunately. Can you imagine a privatived military? Oh boy...

In fact, it's a time-honored practice called "mercenaries." They still exist. Blackwater, etc.

I do think the US Armed Forces should be privatized (much like the USPS or Canada's ATC system). The inefficiencies in having a massive government bureaucracy are massive.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2010-03-16 10:49:08 and read 2610 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 12):
Sure it has its problems, but it is a lot cheaper to fix the system rather than expensively revamp the whole thing

Funny the cost factor is on everyone's lips just this instant....

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: EA772LR
Posted 2010-03-16 11:04:37 and read 2607 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The inefficiencies in having a massive government bureaucracy are massive.

Then may I ask why you support a government takeover of health care? We all know that Obama and Pelosi's intentions are to move to a single-payer (see government run) system. Like you said, "the inefficiencies in having a massive government bureaucracy are massive". {Yes}

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2010-03-16 11:18:57 and read 2594 times.

Quoting arrow (Reply 9):
1. The US military -- One of the biggest, and costliest, examples of socialism anywhere in the world. Privatize the damn thing and let people build castles with moats around them, at their own expense. Can't afford a castle? Tough beans; why should I have to fork over my hard-earned dollars to protect your house.

2. Police, CIA, FBI, TSA -- see #1.

3. Highway/bridges,roads, etc. -- What an incredible drain on the economy! I resent my tax dollars going to help build/repair a road between Scranton and Pittsburgh when I live in Gettysburg! And speaking of Gettysburg, why should I have to pay to run that damn battlefield monument and maintain the cemetery. My relatives aren't buried there. And that traffic light on the corner? Let the guy whose house is on the corner pay for it, I don't need it.

4. Federal Drug Administration -- Jeez, what a waste of my money! These guys monitor, test and approve tens of thousands of drugs that I'll never buy or need. You want a check on that new cancer drug? Pay for it yourself.

5. Air transportation system/airports -- Why the hell should my tax money help support all this stuff? I never fly, so I could care less if these planes don't have a place to land, or run into each other in the sky. If I decide to fly,give me a choice -- I'll go with the low-cost carrier that can take me from A to B and back for $50 by cutting corners on maintenance and hiring students to fly the planes. That FAA is just another commie/leftie/pinko plot to undermine America.

6. Education -- I don't have kids; you jerks who decided of your own free will to procreate can pay for all that.

Funny -- you're all in a knot over "socialized" health care when your existing system is almost as socialized as the ones you are railing against. Public health expenditures in the US already comprise 56% of total spending, and the OECD says that on a per capita basis, that's about what comparable countries with universal health care pay for the entire system -- and for better outcomes. The "private" part of US healthcare adds another 40% and puts your per capita health expenditures up into the stratosphere. And you like this system???

You defend socialism, when all of those are massive failures. Ok, it's hard to say the military "fails" because it's something entirely different than the other services.

1. US Military - aside from failed things like the VA, it's corrupt acquisitions and influence is not something new. This is more of a DOD critique.

2. Police - hmmmm, yeah, I cannot say that 90% (my wild speculation on the number) of what they do is actually helpful. CIA/FBI - again, probably 90% useless. TSA -   

3. Highway/bridges/roads - broken. Destroyed extensive system of rail the US used to have, thanks to the socialists of course, who now want to bring back the dead (so much for visionaries).

4. FDA - LOL, just another "war on drugs" agency.

5. ATC/Airports - broken.

6. Education - broken.

[Edited 2010-03-16 11:24:04]

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2010-03-16 11:27:25 and read 2586 times.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 16):
broken.

Thank heavens the U.S. healthcare, on the contrary, is just fine?

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2010-03-16 11:30:49 and read 2584 times.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 17):
Thank heavens the U.S. healthcare, on the contrary, is just fine?

No, not since the socialists started regulating the hell out of it.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2010-03-16 11:53:06 and read 2558 times.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 18):
No, not since the socialists started regulating the hell out of it.

Yes those wicked socialists always manage to make a mess of things no matter who's nominally in control. The Force obviously is with them.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2010-03-16 11:55:13 and read 2558 times.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 19):
Yes those wicked socialists always manage to make a mess of things no matter who's nominally in control. The Force obviously is with them.

Yeah buddy, the ones in "nominal control" are the ones who have to obey those with the guns, not the other way around.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: arrow
Posted 2010-03-16 12:24:05 and read 2531 times.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 16):
You defend socialism, when all of those are massive failures. Ok, it's hard to say the military "fails" because it's something entirely different than the other services.

If all of those are "massive failures" (and I probably missed a few -- NASA comes to mind) then I guess the only conclusion you can reach is that the entire US as a country is also a "massive failure." You might get an argument on that one.

Sounds like anarchy is your favourite form of government, no?

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 17):
Thank heavens the U.S. healthcare, on the contrary, is just fine?

           

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: fr8mech
Posted 2010-03-16 12:32:49 and read 2528 times.

Quoting arrow (Reply 9):
The US military

An enumerated power of the US government.

Quoting arrow (Reply 9):
Police, CIA, FBI, TSA -- see #1.

Police powers, by their nature belong to the government, whether federal, state or local.

Quoting arrow (Reply 9):
Highway/bridges,roads, etc

See the Commerce Clause

Quoting arrow (Reply 9):
Air transportation system/airports

Again, see the Commerce Clause

Quoting arrow (Reply 9):
Education

I think the Federal Goverment should disassociate itself from education and let the States handle it.

That having been said, I do know that the US has a lot of socialist programs. That they exist doesn't mean that it is correct.

Quoting arrow (Reply 9):
What they all lack (surprise, surprise) is any relationship to a country anywhere in the world that works like this

You're right, no country truly works this way, but the process exists in microcosms all over socilist or quasi-socialist systems or programs. When the goal is to make everyone the same, you end up with mediocrity. It's that simple.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: EA772LR
Posted 2010-03-16 12:38:30 and read 2525 times.

Quoting arrow (Reply 21):
Sounds like anarchy is your favourite form of government, no?

That's clearly not what PPVRA was saying. And you know it. So in your mind, however, the option is major government bureaucracy or anarchy? No?

And I'd hardly call NASA a failure. We can thank NASA for many of the technologies we enjoy today.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 22):
When the goal is to make everyone the same, you end up with mediocrity. It's that simple.

   Don't say that too loud...you may offend some of our left-leaning comrades.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2010-03-16 12:38:37 and read 2524 times.

Quoting arrow (Reply 21):
If all of those are "massive failures" (and I probably missed a few -- NASA comes to mind) then I guess the only conclusion you can reach is that the entire US as a country is also a "massive failure." You might get an argument on that one.

I don't equate government to country.

Quoting arrow (Reply 21):
Sounds like anarchy is your favourite form of government, no?

Nope. I like the opposite, when the law applies to everyone, including government officials. Let me explain:

If you steal, you go to jail. Government officals call it taxes and think that makes it ok.

If you enslave, you go to jail. Government officials call it "civil duty" and think that makes it ok.

If you murder, you go to jail. Government officals call it "assassinations" (among other things) and think that makes it ok.


Bottom line: A rose by any other name would smell as sweet - or in this case, rotten.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: arrow
Posted 2010-03-16 12:59:35 and read 2529 times.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 23):
And I'd hardly call NASA a failure. We can thank NASA for many of the technologies we enjoy today.

I didn't call NASA a failure -- I said it was another example of socialism. And it sounds like you agree that it was/is successful. PPVRA labelled all these things as failures, not me.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 24):
Nope. I like the opposite, when the law applies to everyone, including government officials. Let me explain:

If you steal, you go to jail. Government officals call it taxes and think that makes it ok.

If you enslave, you go to jail. Government officials call it "civil duty" and think that makes it ok.

If you murder, you go to jail. Government officals call it "assassinations" (among other things) and think that makes it ok.

Well, that looks a lot like anarchy to me.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 23):
Don't say that too loud...you may offend some of our left-leaning comrades.

Not in the least. It just illustrates (as documented over and over again on these threads) how little you understand, or know, about socialism. You paint it as black and white. You ascribe a goal of "mediocrity"to it -- with no evidence to back that up and plenty of evidence of excellence (in health and science) to refute it. And you remain benighted and secure in just throwing labels around rather than considering and discussing (with your ideology suppressed for a while) the merits and downsides of various approaches -- particularly in the field of health care.

My friends, who think I'm a raging right winger, would laugh at that "left-leaning comrade" label.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: EA772LR
Posted 2010-03-16 13:15:16 and read 2527 times.

Quoting arrow (Reply 25):
You paint it as black and white. You ascribe a goal of "mediocrity"to it -- with no evidence to back that up and plenty of evidence of excellence (in health and science) to refute it. And you remain benighted and secure in just throwing labels around rather than considering and discussing (with your ideology suppressed for a while) the merits and downsides of various approaches -- particularly in the field of health care.

Save the rhetoric. I don't see you open to dialogue. You post your smug remarks and criticisms of America, that's about it. You have this elitist attitude like you know what's best for America. You're quick to insult those of us who are Conservative or criticize anything liberal. And I know I know, much you try to paint yourself as moderate, please just be honest with us. If your friends consider you 'right leaning', then I'm Pontius Pilate.

Give me evidence that socialism works. Where people are satisfied paying more taxes, redistributing more of their money, giving more control to government to make the public's decisions. That's what modern socialism is. It's a collective equal distribution for the 'community'. Besides, just because socialism 'works' in your mind, or in other parts of the world does not mean that Americans want it. So the point is moot.

Quoting arrow (Reply 25):
I didn't call NASA a failure -- I said it was another example of socialism.

Hardly an example of 'socialism'.    I never agreed NASA was a form of socialism, only that NASA has provided us with a wonderful array of technologies. And you say you know what 'socialism' really is...

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: arrow
Posted 2010-03-16 14:43:04 and read 2526 times.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 26):
Give me evidence that socialism works.

I gave you a few in your own country. There are lots of "social" programs in other countries that work just fine. Ask the average Canadian -- who is just as happy to grouse about taxes as Americans are -- if he'd switch our socialized health system for your private enterprise system. He'll bitch about its flaws and inadequacies, but that's as far as it goes. There won't be many takers.


Quoting EA772LR (Reply 26):
Hardly an example of 'socialism'.    I never agreed NASA was a form of socialism, only that NASA has provided us with a wonderful array of technologies.

Let's see -- NASA is a government managed and funded program designed to explore space. The government funding comes from -- taxpayers. And those taxpayers have no ability to tell Washington that they don't want any of their money to go to NASA -- right? And the benefits from NASA -- as you described them - come from a wonderful array of technologies that all Americans benefit from. How is that not socialism?

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 26):
If your friends consider you 'right leaning', then I'm Pontius Pilate.

A wash basin, soap and hand towel is on its way by FedEx.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: AGM100
Posted 2010-03-20 10:24:54 and read 2455 times.

Wow .... he sounds like Chavez ..... rageing and shouting at us . His charisma is long gone ,he sounds desparete and extremely agitated. Think he wants this much WOW ...?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haF6eq9dtfI  

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-20 11:31:20 and read 2427 times.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 4):
the only thing that goes into effect for the first 4 years is...wait for it...new taxes.

There are parts of the law, like making discrimination of pre-exiting conditions discrimination illegal. come into effect within months. Sadly it takes time for some things to be put in place, such as insurance companies designing policies that exclude parts that will be illegal.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 4):
All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.

The issue I see with that is the money that students (or their parents) paid for that class, and the duty of the professor to provide value for that money. The dude probably had tenure - that would be the only way he could step so far outside of the standards of the university.

Of course, the other thing that pops into my mind is the probability of the professor shanking and rigging the course & tests to ensure the outcome that supports his position. A guy with an ego like that can't be shown to be wrong.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 24):
If you steal, you go to jail. Government officals call it taxes and think that makes it ok.

If you enslave, you go to jail. Government officials call it "civil duty" and think that makes it ok.

It's amazing that the most conservative are the ones most against supporting this nation with their responsibility of taxes. But they never hesitate to demand the services and protections that taxes provide.

And, yes, we have had a draft to bring people into military service. It ended when we moved to paying significantly more in order to motivate enlistment in an all volunteer military.

My service in the Navy was during the VietNam War and there was a draft in those days. A pretty active one IIRC.

ANd, to be honest, I supported the concept of the draft and believe in serving your country in uniform, or in other programs designed to support or improve the country. One tends to have a different view of the country when you actually serve it.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: starac17
Posted 2010-03-20 13:13:04 and read 2396 times.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 22):
You're right, no country truly works this way, but the process exists in microcosms all over socilist or quasi-socialist systems or programs. When the goal is to make everyone the same, you end up with mediocrity. It's that simple.

No you don't get mediocrity, that is completely false. In a Country like Sweden or all of the Scandinavian countries they do pay very high taxes but for that they have the highest standards of life in the world, everyone can read or write and is able to get a university degree, there is virtually no poverty of crime, they live the longest, are generally the happiest people, and everyone gets health care.

Also their economic growth is on par with the US and for a nation of 10 million people have some pretty good high tech and resource based industries.

What you are describing is communism and not democratic socialism.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 15):
Then may I ask why you support a government takeover of health care? We all know that Obama and Pelosi's intentions are to move to a single-payer (see government run) system. Like you said, "the inefficiencies in having a massive government bureaucracy are massive". {Yes}

Thats an irrational fear and all you have to say that is speculation and not facts.

A single payer system is not a government take over of health care at least in Canada it isn't. The NHS in the UK would be the closest thing to what you are talking about and even that ranks pretty well by world standards.

Single payer is a private run system where the hospitals and doctors are completely run privately but the government simply pays the appropriate party on behalf of every citizen, yes taxes are higher but no where near as high as it hurts the economy. Also all medical decisions made are done by the patient and the doctor and there is no middleman to say you can't have that. The problems with Canada's system have to do with funding issues which create wait times for non life threatening stuff, if you have a heart problem or cancer you are getting treated immediately.

Also in Canada only general health is government funded, prescription drugs, dentistry, and optometry are covered by private insurers through most employers exactly like it is done in the US.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: fr8mech
Posted 2010-03-20 13:30:56 and read 2389 times.

Quoting starac17 (Reply 30):
Also their economic growth is on par with the US and for a nation of 10 million people have some pretty good high tech and resource based industries.

But, it's virtually impossible to scale up to a country of 300+ million covering an area of over 3.5 million square miles and with, what is probabaly the most diverse, population on earth. I hate to break this to you (since you probably think I'm a rabid right-wing extremist), but I'd agree, that in small populations, when managed correctly and within the historical context of the population, democratic socialism can work and does in some places. I just don't think, no, I know, it won't work in the US. We are too big, too far-flung and too ingrained in the way we do business.

Quoting starac17 (Reply 30):
Thats an irrational fear and all you have to say that is speculation and not facts.

You know, I spend a lot of time listening to Liberal talk radio on Sirius (it is rather entertaining) and that is exactly what the goal is; single payer. I mean if you guys say that Limbaugh, Hannity, et al speak for the Right...isn't it just as easy to say that Liberal talk radio, such as it is, speaks for the Left?

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-20 14:53:24 and read 2383 times.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 31):
I just don't think, no, I know, it won't work in the US. We are too big, too far-flung and too ingrained in the way we do business.

It seems to work in a slightly different version in Australia. And Australia has about the same sq. miles as the US - with the Flying Doctors being used for outback care in many times.

While there is a tax funded "single payer" there is also private insurance companies delivering excellent products at prices that would embarrass conservatives here.

And, while out Medicare system is considered a "single payer" by many, the private insurance companies do provide gap coverage and make a tidy profit off of that "socialized medicine" market.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: starac17
Posted 2010-03-20 15:23:53 and read 2362 times.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 31):
You know, I spend a lot of time listening to Liberal talk radio on Sirius (it is rather entertaining) and that is exactly what the goal is; single payer. I mean if you guys say that Limbaugh, Hannity, et al speak for the Right...isn't it just as easy to say that Liberal talk radio, such as it is, speaks for the Left?

I never said that right wing talk radio speaks for the right in the US, talk radio is entertainment and should be taken as such whether is right wing or left wing. Also the left wing talk radio's audience is peanuts compared to the rights audience. What I will say about the left is that they are way more open for debate with those who disagree and the right wing stations.

Also I listen to that station as well and Alex Bennett, Tom Hartmann, and Mark Thompson are obviously to the left of Obama because they all grill him about being to conservative. They no doubt get listeners by taking a more leftist approach but its no different that the tactics that right wing hosts use.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 31):
But, it's virtually impossible to scale up to a country of 300+ million covering an area of over 3.5 million square miles and with, what is probabaly the most diverse, population on earth

Canada has 34 million people covering a greater area with just as multicultural as a population if not more so in the cities and a lot of these things work. Where we have an advantage is despite our large land mass we have a much higher Urban population than the US per captita and our provinces run things like education and health care but they have to meet given federal standards.

I will agree with you that the Federal government should let the states run education and health care as long as they meet certain federal standards, but thats my opinion.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
While there is a tax funded "single payer" there is also private insurance companies delivering excellent products at prices that would embarrass conservatives here.

Its the same in Canada and I'm not sure about Australia but in Canada a doctor in a specific province gets a flat rate for seeing a patient and procedures are regulated to keep costs down. It can be said though that while doctors in Australia and Canada make good money a doctor in the US can make great money because of the free market aspect of the system.

Saying that I would be very reluctant to trust a doctor that was simply just in it for the money.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: fr8mech
Posted 2010-03-20 17:55:16 and read 2330 times.

Quoting starac17 (Reply 33):
Saying that I would be very reluctant to trust a doctor that was simply just in it for the money.

I have absolutely no problem going to a doctor who is "in it for the money". Wealth is an awesome motivator to be the best at what you do. The market should shake out those that don't make the cut.

Quoting starac17 (Reply 33):
I will agree with you that the Federal government should let the states run education and health care as long as they meet certain federal standards, but thats my opinion.

Then let's get the Fed out of it and allow the States to best determine how to help its citizens get healthcare insurance. We do it for home-owners and automobile, why not health care insurance? What make the federal bureaucrats any smarter than the state ones? At least the state flunkies are closer to the problems of the individual states.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: TheCol
Posted 2010-03-20 18:22:14 and read 2328 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
Canada's ATC system

The thing is that NPO companies up here, mostly crown corporations, usually turn into unofficial for-profit monopolies. The federal and provincial governments will look the other way if they get piece of the pie.

Quoting starac17 (Reply 30):
yes taxes are higher but no where near as high as it hurts the economy.

No, they have to draw the line somewhere. Some hospitals will look like 2nd world facilities, but the economy will churn on. Of course we can't forget the provincial union-run political parties, which bankroll the economy to line their own pockets.

Quoting starac17 (Reply 30):
Single payer is a private run system where the hospitals and doctors are completely run privately but the government simply pays the appropriate party on behalf of every citizen

You missed the part about the unions hijacking and often paralyzing the system for their own political agenda.

Quoting starac17 (Reply 30):
The problems with Canada's system have to do with funding issues

Because we can't afford the current obsolete setup. The Europeans have it right, but the unions will strike if we change anything.

Quoting starac17 (Reply 30):
which create wait times for non life threatening stuff, if you have a heart problem or cancer you are getting treated immediately.

  

Quoting starac17 (Reply 33):
and procedures are regulated to keep costs down.

And a number of medical professionals go into private practice or to other countries that pay more.

Quoting starac17 (Reply 30):
Also in Canada only general health is government funded, prescription drugs, dentistry, and optometry are covered by private insurers through most employers exactly like it is done in the US.

Because 40% of my income isn't enough. Meanwhile, every smoker, drinker, junkie, welfare bum, illegal immigrant, and criminally negligent patient can get the same treatment, and more, at my expense. Like I said, the Europeans have it right. Too bad we didn't jump on that bandwagon when it rolled by. I hope the Americans foresee those issues before going ahead with this.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: Lufthansa411
Posted 2010-03-20 20:31:18 and read 2308 times.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 4):
An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had once failed an entire class...

Ignoring the fact that the post specifically mentions Obama and according to Snopes if the above scenario did indeed happen it happened before 1995 and not in Texas (where most of the variations place the professor):

I have no problem with professors taking "tough love" and radical stances to get points across, in fact, I have had a couple of professors that had that teaching style, and I learned an incredible amount. That being said, this parable does not make sense from a factual point of view, an one of the basic requirements of any professor is that they have background knowledge of what they are talking about. "Market socialism" as the professor mentions does not have the goal of collectivism, that is communism: its radical cousin. Never mind the fact that if this indeed did happen, the professor is trying to fit a "socialist" model into a "capitalist" university system without changing the underlying structure of the university, which makes it more akin to Stalinism or Leninism and not socialism.

The story has probably been bastardised and altered to fit an agenda. In its original form, it probably was a civics professor discussing what "fairness" was. The professor probably did not even mention socialism at all, focusing on where society distinguishes right and wrong, good and bad, or fair and unfair. Pretty standard lesson for a civics class. The example you cited would fit those goals much better than misinformed economic systems and its benefits and drawbacks with regards to the Obama
agenda.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 22):
You're right, no country truly works this way, but the process exists in microcosms all over socilist or quasi-socialist systems or programs. When the goal is to make everyone the same, you end up with mediocrity. It's that simple.

But the goal of this reform is not to make everyone the same, the goal is to raise the healthcare floor, while not lowering the ceiling, which in turn benefits everyone. If you (having healthcare) need the hospital for a legitimate concern that could not be found or treated by a GP, you are forced to wait behind those without healthcare who use the hospital as a GP of last resort, potentially making your situation worse. To add insult to injury, ou as a taxpayer help pay for their visit at full market price, and not a subsidised rate do to economies of scale.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-20 21:02:39 and read 2301 times.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
The market should shake out those that don't make the cut.

Such as the doctors who make less money because they take the time to teach the "best and brightest" in med schools and guiding them in residencies?

Ot those who go into research with less pay because that is where they are most comfortable?

Your approach is also guaranteed to minimize the number of new doctors who go into Family Health/GP programs.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
At least the state flunkies are closer to the problems of the individual states.

And are easier to bribe.  

Which is why we have sent one State Commissioner to prison. Believe he's still wearing orange jumpsuits & shiny chains.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: fr8mech
Posted 2010-03-20 22:36:51 and read 2284 times.

Quoting arrow (Reply 9):
If that professor taught at my university,
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29):
The dude probably had tenure
Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 36):
Ignoring the fact that the post specifically mentions Obama and according to Snopes if the above scenario did indeed happen it happened before 1995 and not in Texas (where most of the variations place the professor):

Wow folks, it's an anecdote. Maybe I used the wrong word. I didn't believe it happened. Maybe story is a better word.

Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 36):
But the goal of this reform is not to make everyone the same, the goal is to raise the healthcare floor, while not lowering the ceiling, which in turn benefits everyone.

A laudable goal, but it won't happen. As the government becomes an insurer, it will drive others out of business. The government doesn't have to make money, private companies do in order to stay in business. Then we will all be stuck with the same coverage. Where a monopoly (the government) controls rates, costs, wages and ultimately, what procedures will be performed. The government rarely does anything efficiently.

Let me ask it another way...why would my employer (a big nasty corporation) continue to offer me the insurance I currently have when the government can offer me (or them) a package at a much lower cost? Why? My employer pays hundreds of millions a year in health care insurance premiums. Why continue those payments when the government will pick up the slack?

You can't raise a benefit floor without affecting the rest of the benefit pool. Absent some massive influx of cash and capacity, the ceiling will have to come down and the average covergae will head south.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 37):
Such as the doctors who make less money because they take the time to teach the "best and brightest" in med schools and guiding them in residencies?

Ot those who go into research with less pay because that is where they are most comfortable?

Your approach is also guaranteed to minimize the number of new doctors who go into Family Health/GP programs.

So....pay them all the same regardless of talent/speciality/record? You get mediocrity.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 37):
And are easier to bribe.

And easier to catch.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: Lufthansa411
Posted 2010-03-21 07:58:48 and read 2220 times.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 38):
Let me ask it another way...why would my employer (a big nasty corporation) continue to offer me the insurance I currently have when the government can offer me (or them) a package at a much lower cost? Why? My employer pays hundreds of millions a year in health care insurance premiums. Why continue those payments when the government will pick up the slack?

Well, first off the public option as it is now does not exist unless premiums/insurance companies fail to reduce the cost of insurance by acceptable margins within a certain time frame (this was proposed by Sen. Collins Republican of Maine).

And as you pointed out, the insurance companies are for profit, which means that if they are any good, they can judge consumer demand and adapt to a changing business environment, or declare bankruptcy as Adam Smith proposed. If what you said does happen, I would imagine that these firms would simply find a niche market and exploit it, such as the gold plated health plans. Just because people are forced to have basic services, does not mean there are others who do not want more specialised services and are willing to pay for them.

Take BMW after WWI. After the Versailles treaty, they were forced (by the "government") to stop producing aircraft engines as weaponry was strictly prohibited. They took their area of expertise and began designing motorcycle engines and eventually automobile engines. My prediction is if the insurance industry reaches the same point, the same thing will happen.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-21 08:16:27 and read 2218 times.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 38):
As the government becomes an insurer, it will drive others out of business.

We certainly have NOT seen this happen here with private companies happily selling gap policies for Americans with Medicare. To be blunt the insurance companies make money off of that program or they would not be in it, and I'm talking straight Medicare.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 38):
why would my employer (a big nasty corporation) continue to offer me the insurance I currently have when the government can offer me (or them) a package at a much lower cost?

If your employer competes with companies from other countries and fights to keep costs down they may well face a choice in the future of dropping Cadillac plans or cutting the employee count. Actually that's not happening already.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 38):
You get mediocrity.

The real irony in medicine is that you can pay top dollar with the best (or most expensive) insurance in the country and still get mediocrity.

When my father fell & broke his hip I went to the hospital with him with a list of bone docs in my pocket. The list had a line drawn, with names above the list OK to take care of my father. Names below the line were not to take care of him. The criteria? My wife's judgement of how well those docs patients did after surgery. As a physical therapist she had worked with all of their patients long enough to form a solid opinion.

A lot of people in the ER really wanted a peek at the list - including the oncologist who had been treating Dad.

The problem is most people don't have access to this type of list.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: AGM100
Posted 2010-03-21 09:42:21 and read 2171 times.

And good news for my labor union freinds .... the unions are excempt from the caddilac plan taxes that we small buisness owners will pay. Isnt that nice .... its still in this bill. Like Biden said ...."Hey man ..we will control the insurance companies". (better if said in some stupid 60's hippy slang) What a joke this fool is .... and I used to like Biden when he was sane.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: fr8mech
Posted 2010-03-21 12:39:46 and read 2124 times.

Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 39):
And as you pointed out, the insurance companies are for profit, which means that if they are any good, they can judge consumer demand and adapt to a changing business environment, or declare bankruptcy as Adam Smith proposed. If what you said does happen, I would imagine that these firms would simply find a niche market and exploit it, such as the gold plated health plans. Just because people are forced to have basic services, does not mean there are others who do not want more specialised services and are willing to pay for them.

But when the government distorts the market by offering absurdly low premiums, how are the private companies supposed to compete. Sorry, I really do think this bunch running the show have a hard-on for any of the "big-XXXXXX" be it insurance, pharma, tobacco....whatever.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40):
If your employer competes with companies from other countries and fights to keep costs down they may well face a choice in the future of dropping Cadillac plans or cutting the employee count. Actually that's not happening already.

We do and they did. This year I opted for an HSA with a high deductible. I still have the same access, but I pay more. No different than anything else in life. I want better food, I pay for it. Better clothes, give up the cash. Decent car, more cash. I fail to see why healthcare insurance is any different.

The insurance is out there. Just last week, just to satisfy myself, I look up insurance for someone in my positition. The premium worked out to something like $200 a month. More like a Pinto plan, but it was insurance and it covered major medical issues. That is what insurance should be for. But it also allowed a couple of sniffle visits to the doctor a year per family member.

How about this? Why don't we let the government help those that can't afford that bare minimum, catastrophic coverage and leave the vast majority of Americans alone? I'll tell you why...because the government wants to be involved and take over this big-ass piece of our economy.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: Derico
Posted 2010-03-21 12:48:39 and read 2117 times.

And to think 50% of all of these countless US health care threads could be resolved by people in the US exercising for 30 minutes a day and reducing 500-1000 calories off their diet and using less salt and sugar.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-21 12:51:45 and read 2116 times.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 42):
This year I opted for an HSA with a high deductible

I was talking with a guy a few months ago who also went with a high ($10,000) deductible and a HSA. I asked him what would happen if he, his wife and 2 kids were in an accident and all taken to the hospital. Would the deductible be $10,000 for the family or $40,000.

He didn't know, but from the look on his face he was going to find out rather fast.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: Okie
Posted 2010-03-21 13:05:09 and read 2111 times.

So will today be St Obama Day....................

The day he drove all the Democrats out of Washington DC (you're suppose to smile)

Okie

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: fr8mech
Posted 2010-03-21 13:30:05 and read 2073 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
I was talking with a guy a few months ago who also went with a high ($10,000) deductible and a HSA. I asked him what would happen if he, his wife and 2 kids were in an accident and all taken to the hospital. Would the deductible be $10,000 for the family or $40,000.

Mine is quoted as individal/family. $3000/$6000. Since we are a family everything goes to the $6000 deductible.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: TheCol
Posted 2010-03-21 13:31:10 and read 2070 times.

Quoting Derico (Reply 43):

A few other things can be added to that list as well.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 41):

That's gonna bite everybody in the ass later. The unions won't be satisfied just representing employees of the system. Eventually they will want to "be the system".

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: NIKV69
Posted 2010-03-21 14:44:43 and read 2030 times.

Quoting Okie (Reply 45):
The day he drove all the Democrats out of Washington DC (you're suppose to smile)

No that will be November

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: fr8mech
Posted 2010-03-21 18:01:48 and read 1959 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
I was talking with a guy a few months ago who also went with a high ($10,000) deductible and a HSA. I asked him what would happen if he, his wife and 2 kids were in an accident and all taken to the hospital. Would the deductible be $10,000 for the family or $40,000.

He didn't know, but from the look on his face he was going to find out rather fast.

I will add, that he isn't a very informed consumer if he didn't know the answer. And, I feel that is one of the reasons health care costs are so high. Because of the way we do health insurance, the consumer of health care (that's us) haven't a friggin clue what health care (not insurance) costs. The consumer and the provider don't have a normal market relationship.

Now, that I'm responsible for more of my health care costs, you bet your bippy I know what my providers charge for any particular service.

Hmmmmm, personal responsibility.

Well, just a mere 226 days until we start to set things right.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2010-03-21 18:50:05 and read 1917 times.

Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 39):
And as you pointed out, the insurance companies are for profit, which means that if they are any good, they can judge consumer demand and adapt to a changing business environment, or declare bankruptcy as Adam Smith proposed. If what you said does happen, I would imagine that these firms would simply find a niche market and exploit it, such as the gold plated health plans. Just because people are forced to have basic services, does not mean there are others who do not want more specialised services and are willing to pay for them.

Take BMW after WWI. After the Versailles treaty, they were forced (by the "government") to stop producing aircraft engines as weaponry was strictly prohibited. They took their area of expertise and began designing motorcycle engines and eventually automobile engines. My prediction is if the insurance industry reaches the same point, the same thing will happen.

However this is different. Insurance companies are not in the business to provide healthcare, they are in the business of covering people's risk, whether it's health or auto related, or home, or anything else. They are not in the business of paying for your gasoline, your brake jobs, your furniture, your new roof, or anything like that. If BMW were forced to built anything but did not have the liberty to choose their own designs but rather had to follow strict rules in how their engines could look like, what type of things they should and shouldn't include in it, etc., I am sure they would suck as a company in anything they tried to do so long those rules were in place.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-21 20:11:41 and read 1848 times.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 50):
Insurance companies are not in the business to provide healthcare, they are in the business of covering people's risk, whether it's health or auto related,

Which might be why we, as a country, may need to re-look at the desirability of leaving the health and lives of our fellow citizens in the hands of companies who are far more skilled as eluding the the costs of caring for their policy holders. Skills that focus on ridding themselves of patients needing care, those how have a medical condition that "may" cost money in the future, and financial caps on treatments.

I tend to believe that health care for my family beats the importance of having a car any day of week. Cars come off the assembly line avery second of the day, but I've only had one wife for 41 years - and will never have another.

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: AGM100
Posted 2010-03-21 20:13:04 and read 1846 times.

Well its kind of like arriving at your dream vaction spot except you stumbled away form the plane crashing on arrival. A hard fought and very expensive "victory " for the president and Nancy.

Reminds me of the scnene in Apocolypse now .... when the playboy bunnies try to put on the show near the Do Long bridge. The MC ends up leaving the stage trying to throw flowers while the drunken GI's crash the stage .... thats Nancy and her "Victory" speech..... give it then run fast and hide .

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2010-03-21 20:18:11 and read 1838 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 51):
Which might be why we, as a country, may need to re-look at the desirability of leaving the health and lives of our fellow citizens in the hands of companies who are far more skilled as eluding the the costs of caring for their policy holders.

You, as an individual, need to have the choice as to how much you want to deal with these companies. I do not want to deal with them as much as I have done in the recent past, but unfortunately thanks to some of the same people who just voted an even more draconian mandate into law, now I will have to depend even more on them.

If you want to deal with the DMV of medical care, with with me, but that should also be an individual choice.

[Edited 2010-03-21 20:19:01]

Topic: RE: Health Care "Reform " Is This It ...?
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2010-03-21 20:21:39 and read 1822 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 51):
I tend to believe that health care for my family beats the importance of having a car any day of week. Cars come off the assembly line avery second of the day, but I've only had one wife for 41 years - and will never have another.

I'm not sure what you mean to imply with this, that I somehow value material things over my or anyone's health? You would be wrong.

[Edited 2010-03-21 20:21:59]


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