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Topic: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-18 08:02:31 and read 4129 times.

Remember Sen. DeMint from South Carolina? Remember his comment last summer that if the GOP could stop President Obama's health care plans it would be his waterloo? Remember how the democrats went ballistic saying this just proved they (the gop) were only concerned with politics and not the people? Well it appears the President now agrees with Sen. DeMints comments after all, after first blasting the Senator last summer. Let's have a peek back at last summer shall we?

http://www2.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=1809667

"If we are able to stop Obama on this, it will be his Waterloo. It will break him," Senator Jim DeMint, a South Carolina Republican, told conservative activists.
Obama seized on DeMint's remarks as evidence the GOP's opposition is based less on disputes of the specifics of health reform but more on politics.
"This isn't about me," Obama said. "We can't afford the politics of delay and defeat when it comes to health care. Not this time, not now."


There was even a thread with the material as a topic:

Is The GOP Interested In Fixing Healthcare At All? (by StasisLAX Jul 21 2009 in Non Aviation)?threadid=2106820&searchid=2106820&s=+Obama+waterloo#ID2106820


Well guess what? 8 months later, with a single political parlamentarian trick left to pass his health care bill left which has not enjoyed public support for the same amount of time, the President is singing a different tune.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34602.html


President Barack Obama had exhausted most of his health care reform arguments with members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus during a White House meeting last Thursday when he made a more personal pitch that resonated with many skeptics in the room.
One caucus member told POLITICO that Obama won him over by “essentially [saying] that the fate of his presidency” hinged on this week’s health reform vote in the House. The member, who requested anonymity, likened Obama’s remarks to an earlier meeting with progressives when the president said a victory was necessary to keep him “strong” for the next three years of his term.
Another caucus member, Rep. Jose Serrano (D-N.Y.), said, “We went in there already knowing his presidency would be weakened if this thing went down, but the president clearly reinforced the impression the presidency would be damaged by a loss.”
Added Serrano: “He was subtle, but that was the underlying theme of the meeting — the importance of passing this for the health of the presidency.”


So after all the speeches, all the interviews, and all the rallies about how this is for the good of the nation and he is just a messenger blah blah blah, in the end it does comes down to him. So much for his comment a couple of weeks ago that he just as preferably be a one term President who gets something done. Just another reason to hold off spending what is now reputed to be 940 billion dollars.

What's more if you read the linked story, how much has changed in 8 months? Approval then was only 49%, just a few points higher than polls taken today. The cost within 10% of what it was last summer and covers less of the uninsured. Scrap this bill and start over!!! How long and how loud does the electorate have to say that to you Mr. President?

[Edited 2010-03-18 08:12:28]

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: mt99
Posted 2010-03-18 08:24:31 and read 4111 times.

Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
Remember how the democrats went ballistic saying this just proved they (the gop) were only concerned with politics and not the people? Well it appears the President now agrees with Sen. DeMints comments after all,

I don't see how it changes the perception that its a purely political battle for the GOP. The fact that The President agrees with the fact that this is critical to his Presidency - does not change the politics behind some (or most?) of the GOP not moving forward.

The point is to screw Obama - it always has been. He recognizes this..

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: futurepilot16
Posted 2010-03-18 08:34:57 and read 4097 times.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
I don't see how it changes the perception that its a purely political battle for the GOP. The fact that The President agrees with the fact that this is critical to his Presidency - does not change the politics behind some (or most?) of the GOP not moving forward.

The point is to screw Obama - it always has been. He recognizes this.

That's what I love the most about the GOP. Their willingness to play nothing but politics, doing whatever it takes to keep their party competing with the democrats, while not giving a shit about what happens to the American people. But then, they turn around and point out the fact that Obama does acknowledge that this bill could be huge for his presidency, and that ALL he cares about is politics and not the people. It's a double edged sword.

Quoting DXing (Thread starter):

So after all the speeches, all the interviews, and all the rallies about how this is for the good of the nation and he is just a messenger blah blah blah, in the end it does comes down to him. So much for his comment a couple of weeks

Wow, ignorance is bliss. After all the GOP has done to NOT help this country recover from the terrible situation we're in, you turn around and say that it's all about Obama and that he's selfish? Maybe you should take a look at the history of the American presidency and realize that ALL presidents are concerned with getting re-elected and are concerned about how they're viewed by the American public.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: US330
Posted 2010-03-18 08:41:39 and read 4073 times.

Well, at least we know he can state the obvious.

Even someone who only occasionally follows U.S. politics since Obama's inauguration could tell you that the fate of his presidency (and his presidential legacy) depends on this health care bill passing. For better or for worse, Obama has put the majority of his political capital and his political efforts into getting this bill passed--it is his number one priority, by far--and he has basically put all his political legacy eggs in this one basket. Whether or not you agree or disagree with the bill (I'm personally opposed to the bill), all can agree on that.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: arrow
Posted 2010-03-18 08:43:21 and read 4072 times.

Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
Remember Sen. DeMint from South Carolina? Remember his comment last summer that if the GOP could stop President Obama's health care plans it would be his waterloo?

I don't disagree with what you've laid out, but what's the point? Eight months ago, Obama didn't think it would be his "Waterloo." Now he does. So what?

Too bad we can't go back into the records and see what Napolean's public statements were 8 months before he met Wellington on the field of battle. Or maybe even just the night before. Hindsight is always 20-20.

I don't think this is just Obama's Waterloo -- I think it might be America's Waterloo. Failure to get any kind of health reform moving, and get costs under control, will be a devastating blow, long term, to the US economy. Obama's package doesn't even come close, in my opinion, but at least it's movement.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: seb146
Posted 2010-03-18 08:50:39 and read 4062 times.

Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
“essentially [saying] that the fate of his presidency” hinged on this week’s health reform vote in the House.
Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
He was subtle, but that was the underlying theme of the meeting — the importance of passing this for the health of the presidency

So, working off subtlety and innuendo (it is clear as the keyboard in front of me), the president needs to get this passed? I don't get it; when the right uses subtelty and innuendo, it is acceptable (It's what he didn't say) but when the left uses that lame excuse, it does not fly? This is a non issue. Unless you can quote me EXACTLY word-for-word where Obama said exactly that, this means nothing. It is hear say.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: mt99
Posted 2010-03-18 08:56:47 and read 4058 times.

Quoting US330 (Reply 3):
it is his number one priority, by far--and he has basically put all his political legacy eggs in this one basket. Whether or not you agree or disagree with the bill (I'm personally opposed to the bill), all can agree on that.

Right - and that's his prerogative (foolish or not - that's not the issue at hand) and the GOP would be stupid not to stop it at ANY cost.

As long as we are being honest here, does any one here see an upside of the GOP voting for ANY health care bill that Obama will ultimately sign?

It may include a project to clone Ronald Regan,and it would still get no votes - just because its Obama's baby.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-18 09:02:58 and read 4054 times.

The Republicans' efforts to make this Obama's Waterloo has been clear for a long time. And it has been equally clear that in taking this road that the needs of the country took second place for the Republicans.

It's not unusual has commented on this situation - he's been attacked or months over his efforts to improve health care for average Americans and he hasn't backed down.

And it appears that there will be the last vote in the House on Sunday.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-18 10:47:43 and read 4024 times.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
The point is
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 2):
Their willingness to play nothing but politics,
Quoting arrow (Reply 4):
but what's the point?
Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
It is hear say.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
that the needs of the country took second place for the Republicans.

It's called desperation. All the so-called explanations have not helped, all the pleas to just pass the bill and they will work out the kinks later have not helped, so now in the last desperate appeal, it now is about him. He's a hypocrite and an egomaniac.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
And it appears that there will be the last vote in the House on Sunday.

They can say that all they want. If they had the votes to pass it they would have the vote today. It appears that two more "yes" votes switched to "no" votes today. The members of the House are finally starting to listen to their constituents.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: futurepilot16
Posted 2010-03-18 10:51:27 and read 4018 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 8):
He's a hypocrite and an egomaniac

Since you just looovee throwing all these words out there so much. Explain exactly how he's a hypocrite, and an egomaniac, and how that makes him different from any other politician in our gov't today.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: NIKV69
Posted 2010-03-18 11:06:04 and read 4002 times.

I think that idiot he picked as VP will be more of an issue. He better sew that guys mouth shut!

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: mt99
Posted 2010-03-18 11:11:48 and read 4000 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 8):
It's called desperation. All the so-called explanations have not helped, all the pleas to just pass the bill and they will work out the kinks later have not helped, so now in the last desperate appeal, it now is about him. He's a hypocrite and an egomaniac.

Was this the point of your original post?

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: EA772LR
Posted 2010-03-18 11:24:32 and read 3980 times.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 9):
Since you just looovee throwing all these words out there so much. Explain exactly how he's a hypocrite, and an egomaniac, and how that makes him different from any other politician in our gov't today.

It's fair to say that if you need an explanation as to how Obama is an egomaniac and hypocrite, then we should also explain how the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. It's about that clear.  
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
I think that idiot he picked as VP will be more of an issue. He better sew that guys mouth shut!

No keep lapdog Biden's jaws flappin away! I love it when the guy talks...he's like Screech from the old Saved By The Bell show. Never knows when to zip it, and always causes some inward directed turmoil.

Quoting DXing (Reply 8):
The members of the House are finally starting to listen to their constituents.

My fingers are crossed. My question is, what will this do for Obama? If it passes, the electorate will have a catastrophic reaction in November, but if it fails (which I believe it will) then the electorate will likewise also turn their back on him. Obama and the Democrats are in a lose-lose position here. It's remarkable really. They've pushed their liberal agenda so hard, so fanatically, the American people are done with them. The best part about all of this, is the biggest backlash against Obama now are the Independents that supported him. Let me grab my popcorn, this ought to be action packed November!   

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: futurepilot16
Posted 2010-03-18 11:29:01 and read 3965 times.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 12):
It's fair to say that if you need an explanation as to how Obama is an egomaniac and hypocrite, then we should also explain how the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. It's about that clear.

Just answer the question and stop beating around the Bush. And also, explain to me HOW is he being an egomaniac and a hypocrite make him different than any politician, republican or democrat, that is in our gov't. If you can't answer these questions, then admit it and don't waste your time responding.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: US330
Posted 2010-03-18 11:43:16 and read 3949 times.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 13):
And also, explain to me HOW is he being an egomaniac and a hypocrite make him different than any politician, republican or democrat, that is in our gov't

Hypocrite: he promised transparency in government and making Washington more open and accessible to the people. Yet he's trying to get this bill passed using political stiff-arming. Polls have indicated that the majority of Americans are against this health care bill, and want him to focus on other issues of the economy, yet he still insists on it being passed.
When you have people like Bob Hebert of the NYT (someone who probably wouldn't even let his car turn right) criticizing you for missing the point, you know you've screwed up.

Egomaniac: The guy thought that people fell in love with him and that he'd be able to convince anybody that he's right, yet when its clear that his arguments are for naught, he still insists on getting it his way.

And no, he isn't any different from any other politician in D.C. He just happens to be the one with the highest stature.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: GatorFan
Posted 2010-03-18 11:45:11 and read 3941 times.

If healthcare fails - Obama has failed. He's made it his biggest domestic issue. He's spent a year on it.

The closest parallel came in 1993, when a Democratic Congress was about to block Clinton's first budget, the deciding vote came down to 1 Democratic Senator changing his mind and voting for it. He famously spoke on the floor of the Senate saying "I cannot cast the vote that brings down this Presidency." The final vote was tied exactly 50/50 and the VP Gore cast the deciding vote in favor of it. The House passed the budget 218-216.

But even more importantly, if the House votes down this bill, Pelosi's Speakership will be over. The Speaker of the House has almost an iron fist in controlling debate. With such a huge majority, if she can't deliver health care she'll have been broken. My bet is that she'll find a reason not to run for re-election rather than be deposed as Speaker in the next Congress if health care fails.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-18 11:49:54 and read 3935 times.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 12):
My question is, what will this do for Obama? If it passes, the electorate will have a catastrophic reaction in November, but if it fails (which I believe it will) then the electorate will likewise also turn their back on him.

If it passes (and I think there is a chance it will) the next questions are how it impacts people between Sunday and November. And the same for impacting people between now and the 2012 elections. Conservative are so sure that this is a horrible law that they will get caught with their pants down if it works for the voters.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 12):
Obama and the Democrats are in a lose-lose position here.

That assumes that by 2012 health reform hasn't improved the situation for a lot of Americans. The real risk for Republicans is that reform actually works once it gets started.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: EA772LR
Posted 2010-03-18 11:52:11 and read 3935 times.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 13):
Just answer the question and stop beating around the Bush.

First of all, the attitude of that 'his' agenda is the right thing to do, damn what the American public thinks. His constant using the words 'I' 'Me' 'My'. I've never seen a president use so many references about what 'He' wants. His arrogant attitude at his last official SOTU address. He didn't budge at all on his plans for Government Health Care and his Government Energy ala Cap and Tax, which are highly unpopular. He really believes all the hype and smoke that's been blown up his ass his whole political career. He's an average speaker who did some community service, and was a lawyer, as well as briefly served in political office for which he voted 'present' how many times and campaigned for how much of his Senate term?? He's a hypocrite because he's pulling the same shit he accused the Republicans of doing, except he's taken it to all new level. Where's the transparency? Why isn't Gitmo shut down? He accused Bush of deficit spending out of control, so what does he do-deficit spends more than all presidents before him by an order of magnitude more. Need I go on??

Did anyone watch the interview Obama did with Brett Baier? Obama dodged about every question and his rhetoric when asked about the 'deeming process' was appalling. I can't believe the POTUS would basically say on national TV 'he doesn't care how this bill gets passed, all that matters is that it's passed.' The contents are all that matters, forget the Constitutional process of passing bills.   

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: GatorFan
Posted 2010-03-18 11:54:13 and read 3928 times.

I think the absolute worst case scenario for Democrats is for health care reform to pass through the deemed pass maneuver and then the law to be overturned down the road by a court.

In such a situation, they'll bear the full wrath of voters this November AND eventually have nothing to show for it.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: seb146
Posted 2010-03-18 11:54:19 and read 3928 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 8):
It's called desperation. All the so-called explanations have not helped, all the pleas to just pass the bill and they will work out the kinks later have not helped, so now in the last desperate appeal, it now is about him. He's a hypocrite and an egomaniac.

"Desperation" is what the health care lobby and right-wingers were telling us at the beginning of the health care debate. Telling us that we were not filing bankrupcy to cover our medical bills and praying we wouldn't get sick because we were working two or three jobs just to put food on the table and give us a roof over our heads. "Desperation" is calling anyone to the left of so-called "Republicans" every name in the book instead of addressing the problem.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: EA772LR
Posted 2010-03-18 11:55:51 and read 3928 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
That assumes that by 2012 health reform hasn't improved the situation for a lot of Americans. The real risk for Republicans is that reform actually works once it gets started.

It can't Ken. It's not slated to go into effect until 2013. Yet the bastards want to start taxing NOW. The voters will feel nothing but another government hand in their back pocket, and yet further expansion of the government's powers.

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 15):
But even more importantly, if the House votes down this bill, Pelosi's Speakership will be over. The Speaker of the House has almost an iron fist in controlling debate.

Her career is over anyway. I think she is 'taking one for the team' as it were. She knows how sick she makes people, and she knows that with her being at the front of this, Obama is using her as a political shield. She's done.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: GatorFan
Posted 2010-03-18 12:02:00 and read 3917 times.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 20):
Her career is over anyway. I think she is 'taking one for the team' as it were. She knows how sick she makes people, and she knows that with her being at the front of this, Obama is using her as a political shield. She's done.

I thought this from when the House voted on its bill in November until late last week. She literally had disappeared off the face of the earth. The party wouldn't let her open her mouth for all that time. However, she's now all over the place. I wonder if she thinks that by forcing through HCR she can save her Speakership.

I have liberal friends in San Fran who are telling me that she's getting abused on from both sides. The liberals feel she's a sell out and the right simply can't stand her.

Do you know of any Member of Congress who after being Speaker ever returned to serve simply as a representative? I can't think of any.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: futurepilot16
Posted 2010-03-18 12:21:52 and read 3901 times.

Quoting US330 (Reply 14):

Thank you very much

Quoting US330 (Reply 14):
And no, he isn't any different from any other politician in D.C. He just happens to be the one with the highest stature

Which is exactly point. So why is EA772 and DXing pointing it out, when he's no different from any other politician? Hammering it home won't do a damn thing. What it comes down to is a political career and how long it can last, because everyone on capitol hill, could care less about this bill because when it comes down to it, they're all millionaires anyway. What happens in the bill has no effect on their family whatsoever and their ability to get healthcare. So stop pretending that Obama is the only politician with an Agenda that favors himself.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 17):
The contents are all that matters, forget the Constitutional process of passing bills

Personally, I believe the republican's selfishness when it comes to doing everything in their power to sabotage this health care bill is the real problem. If anything, they're just as un-American as you guys are saying Obama is. You people don't realize that this is a problem throughout the gov't, don't just point your finger at one person. No one gives a shit about the people, it ain't just Obama, and the sooner you realize that, the better.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: EA772LR
Posted 2010-03-18 12:40:10 and read 3875 times.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 22):
You people don't realize that this is a problem throughout the gov't, don't just point your finger at one person. No one gives a shit about the people, it ain't just Obama, and the sooner you realize that, the better.

No you don't get it pal. When Bush was president did you and your beloved Liberal comrades forget "that this is a problem throughout the gov't,"?? I'm glad that you realize Obama, and the rest of the morons in D.C. don't give a $hit about the people. But by proxy of him being the POTUS, and the Democrats having vast majorities he and they will naturally be the brunt of political anger, much the way the left treated (and still does   ) Bush.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 22):
What happens in the bill has no effect on their family whatsoever and their ability to get healthcare

Which is exactly why those pricks shouldn't be telling us what's good for us. I distinctly remember an idea for an amendment by a Republican that would have required members of the House/Senate to have the same health care that us peons have.   You see how far it went.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: US330
Posted 2010-03-18 13:50:23 and read 3835 times.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 22):
So stop pretending that Obama is the only politician with an Agenda that favors himself

They aren't. I don't see them singing the praises of individual republican members for their honesty and integrity--it doesn't make their point any less valid or true by not specifically saying "Obama, like every other member of congress, is in it only for himself."

As far as I am concerned, they all need to be thrown out. Term limits for everybody in office.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo
Username: qantas077
Posted 2010-03-18 13:58:03 and read 3845 times.

meanwhile..the rest of the world sits back and laughs at how appalling the state of US health care is.

[Edited 2010-03-18 13:58:35]

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Slider
Posted 2010-03-18 13:59:19 and read 3845 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
That assumes that by 2012 health reform hasn't improved the situation for a lot of Americans. The real risk for Republicans is that reform actually works once it gets started.

The tax increases begin immediately even though coverage won't begin right away.

It will be cataclysmic if it passes, not only for the Demoncats who vote for it, but for the country that doesn't want it, has said so in resounding riotous declarations from sea to shining sea, yet the oligarchs march on with THEIR agenda--not that of the people or for the people, no matter the semantics they wrap it up in.

Too bad it WON'T start before the next presidential election cycle--I'd love to see shortages, price increases, and death panels on Obama's watch so he can truly reap his own whirlwind.

Waterloo indeed.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-18 14:04:23 and read 3856 times.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 20):
It can't Ken. It's not slated to go into effect until 2013.

Parts will take effect this year, within 90 days as I understand it. Pre-existing conditions for kids is one that hits in 2010. Having your kids on your policy until they are 26 is another.

Those parts scheduled for later starts may, or may not, be moved up as things develop.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 20):
She knows how sick she makes people, and she knows that with her being at the front of this, Obama is using her as a political shield. She's done.

She makes Conservatives sick. Just as sick as Newt make Liberals. BFD. That's politics in American.

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 21):
I have liberal friends in San Fran who are telling me that she's getting abused on from both sides. The liberals feel she's a sell out and the right simply can't stand her.

A vote in the House to deem that the Senate bill is passed will be sufficient to set her place in history. The bill is historic in many ways and few are fighting as hard to get it passed as she is. I think she will be more than satisfied with her years in the job if she gets the votes this Sunday.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: NIKV69
Posted 2010-03-18 14:06:21 and read 3857 times.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 25):
meanwhile..the rest of the world sits back and laughs at how appalling the state of US health care is

Give it a rest Monty, I would take the US system over anywhere else and so would many others. We just don't believe we have to give half our paycheck back so everyone could have it.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: EA772LR
Posted 2010-03-18 14:32:08 and read 3828 times.

Just read this...pretty funny, and pretty much true   

Let me get this straight. We're going to be gifted with a health care plan written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that hasn't read it but exempts themselves from it, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, to be signed by a president who also hasn't read it but "insists" on provisions in the bill to FORCE ALL Americans to be held accountable for their "LIFESTYLE CHOICES" diet, exercise YET he himself SMOKES!!*^%%**???!!!!!, to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke. What the hell could possibly go wrong?
  

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-18 15:38:11 and read 3800 times.

Quoting Slider (Reply 26):
yet the oligarchs march on with THEIR agenda

How do you vote an oligarch into power? The House members go up each 2 years. The President every 4 years and Senators face the voters every 6 years.

Quoting Slider (Reply 26):
not that of the people or for the people, no matter the semantics they wrap it up in.

Semantics in health care is focused on money. I'll trust the Democrats to care for Americans before Republicans any day of the week.

Quoting Slider (Reply 26):
Too bad it WON'T start before the next presidential election cycle--I'd love to see shortages, price increases, and death panels on Obama's watch so he can truly reap his own whirlwind.

Shortages? We already have them for people without the means of acquiring health care.

Price Increases? LOL! Look at the increases during the Bush/Cheney Administration and then talk about cost increases.

Death Panels? In Sarah Palin's world you might find them, especially if you believe in the Tooth Fairy.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 28):
Give it a rest Monty, I would take the US system over anywhere else and so would many others. We just don't believe we have to give half our paycheck back so everyone could have it.

You'll take the US system unless, of course, you need a drug or treatment that hasn't been approved by the FDA, but is freely available in other advanced countries like Australia. They we'll see how fast you are able to get a plane ticket. (The phone number for Qantas is 1 800 227 4500 - just in case you end up using it.   )

And tax liabilities in Australia are pretty much in line with the US. Oh, wait, Australia is able to provide first rate medical care to people in the country for a lot less money than we spend in the US.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2010-03-18 16:04:45 and read 3789 times.

It's always funny that conservatives on this board believe that politicians should always just blindly follow whatever the polls say. What's really funny is that when polls said Americans wanted the U.S. to pull out of Iraq, the same conservatives said we must ignore the polls!!

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: qantas077
Posted 2010-03-18 17:12:45 and read 3756 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
You'll take the US system unless, of course, you need a drug or treatment that hasn't been approved by the FDA, but is freely available in other advanced countries like Australia. They we'll see how fast you are able to get a plane ticket. (The phone number for Qantas is 1 800 227 4500 - just in case you end up using it.   )

And tax liabilities in Australia are pretty much in line with the US. Oh, wait, Australia is able to provide first rate medical care to people in the country for a lot less money than we spend in the US.

that's about the size of it, when I had a serious car accident back in 2000 I paid nothing for expensive neurosurgery or the 2 years in rehab, same when I had a back injury in 2004, it cost me nothing and I was operated on not long after I was rushed to hospital.

I don't fully understand your system but I get the general idea that its a user pay type system, with the exception of medicare/aid which caters to certain individuals and has age limits and means tests?! I would have thought it would be a priority for all Americans regardless of their political persuasion.

and for the record I pay $15 for two asthma sprays each 1/4 and they last me about 3 months or so, each prescription is able to be cashed 5 times before I need a new one..

I know we have reciprocal agreements with other nations too and this also includes discounted medications for those who are eligible from overseas.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: NIKV69
Posted 2010-03-18 17:54:26 and read 3745 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
You'll take the US system unless, of course, you need a drug or treatment that hasn't been approved by the FDA, but is freely available in other advanced countries like Australia. They we'll see how fast you are able to get a plane ticket. (The phone number for Qantas is 1 800 227 4500 - just in case you end up using it. )

The propaganda is getting old. I won't want to use a drug that the FDA hasn't looked into and I sure won't be flying to AUS to get it. Nice try tho and the Qantas phone # thing was cute.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: futurepilot16
Posted 2010-03-18 18:17:48 and read 3708 times.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 32):
that's about the size of it, when I had a serious car accident back in 2000 I paid nothing for expensive neurosurgery or the 2 years in rehab, same when I had a back injury in 2004, it cost me nothing and I was operated on not long after I was rushed to hospital

Good thing you're ok then. If you lived in this country, and you were without insurance, if death wasn't imminent, they would tell you that without insurance, there's nothing they can do about it. Then again, if you did have insurance, even after years of paying jacked up rates, they'd argue with you until you agreed to pay at least a part of the hospital bill out of your own pocket.

Quoting Slider (Reply 26):
Too bad it WON'T start before the next presidential election cycle--I'd love to see shortages, price increases, and death panels on Obama's watch so he can truly reap his own whirlwind.

Dude, please don't say that. I would like to think that we on A-Net can have an intelligent conversation without bringing up the words "death panels". Oh and BTW, if you actually believe Psycho Palin and her beliefs in death panels, then I truly pray for you, because you need it.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-18 18:18:23 and read 3710 times.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 32):
I don't fully understand your system but I get the general idea that its a user pay type system, with the exception of medicare/aid which caters to certain individuals and has age limits and means tests?!

Basically our system is designed to cost twice as much as your in order to ensure profitability for health insurance companies. It also ensures that tens of millions of people cannot afford health care, which is an unfortunate but necessary part of our system that keeps the insurance companies making plump profits.

We also have a situation that feels it is better medicine when you pay more for the same treatment. We fear government dollars in medicine, but hospitals rely on Medicare and Medicaid to stay open and on government grants for research.

Oh, and it's important to remember that most of our bankruptcies are because of health care costs, and most of those people actually have health insurance.

And then. of course, we take pride in employers getting hit with the major costs of health insurance costs since we don't believe that it impacts how much we end up getting paid, how many employees a company can hire & maintain or if it impacts our ability to compete in the international market place.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
The propaganda is getting old. I won't want to use a drug that the FDA hasn't looked into and I sure won't be flying to AUS to get it

Actually, the top bone doc in town had to go to the UK to train in the new total hip surgeries many years ago, and performed the first total hip in town. It was one of those foreign things, ya know. And before we moved to Australia we visited there when my son was a year old. There was a nice story on the front page of the paper about US doctors flying to SYD to learn micro-surgery. There were so many from the US that the training was held in a warehouse. More "foreign stuff".

And the two Aussie docs who discovered ulcers caused by bacteria? Won the Nobel Prize in Medicine a few years ago? Eventually made it passed the FDA. But how long after the rest of the world were taking better care of patients.

Simple fact is that you can get outstanding care in a lot of countries. There may be different drugs, ahead or behind the US. There may be treatments that are eventually going to get to these shores - like total hip replacements. But if your doc tells you that there is a new treatment overseas that looks to be working better than he can offer - personally I'd recommend you head to where the best care is. Otherwise you're taking a lower quality treatment because a large government bureaucracy is taking their sweet time to do what other countries can do faster.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: qantas077
Posted 2010-03-18 18:29:15 and read 3698 times.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
I won't want to use a drug that the FDA hasn't looked into and I sure won't be flying to AUS to get it.

well that's stating the obvious, Nick...nobody will be using a drug that the FDA hasn't looked in to, our system has the same stringent analysis before anything gets put on the list for consumption...and if our quarantine regulations are anything to go by then its probably even more stringent than the US and other nations. I take it you have health insurance, what would be your reaction if you were to suffer some kind of bad health and the company put more stress on you by wrangling about paying the costs?

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 34):
Good thing you're ok then. If you lived in this country, and you were without insurance, if death wasn't imminent, they would tell you that without insurance, there's nothing they can do about it. Then again, if you did have insurance, even after years of paying jacked up rates, they'd argue with you until you agreed to pay at least a part of the hospital bill out of your own pocket.

that's how I imagine it to be, never visited the US without adequate travel insurance because I know if something happens I am screwed, I've seen the arguing and insurance companies refusing to pay or making up certain excuses about why they won't pay out on claims, its outrageous.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 35):
Oh, and it's important to remember that most of our bankruptcies are because of health care costs, and most of those people actually have health insurance.

iirc its health care that nearly sent GM to the wall...not only are they paying for the current workforce but also those who have retired, must be costing them a mint to keep that up.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-18 18:36:18 and read 3702 times.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 34):
Good thing you're ok then. If you lived in this country, and you were without insurance, if death wasn't imminent, they would tell you that without insurance, there's nothing they can do about it.

Actually, if you don't have health insurance they would probably start talking to your family about an organ transplant. There is good money to be made there.  
Quoting qantas077 (Reply 36):
our system has the same stringent analysis before anything gets put on the list for consumption...

There are high standards Down Under, but somehow they seem to get through the review process in a fraction of the time the FDA takes.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 36):
iirc its health care that nearly sent GM to the wall

IIRC, GM had to add about $1,200 to the price of each car to cover the health costs of retirees. That makes Medicare Advantage look wimpy.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-18 20:14:04 and read 3652 times.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 9):
Since you just looovee throwing all these words out there so much. Explain exactly how he's a hypocrite, and an egomaniac, and how that makes him different from any other politician in our gov't today.

Two words, hope and change. As well as:

"I don't take a dime of their [lobbyist] money, and when I am president, they won't find a job in my White House. "
Barack Obama

"In the end, that's what this election is about. Do we participate in a politics of cynicism or a politics of hope? "
Barack Obama

and fnally:

"My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington. "
Barack Obama

If he really believed that last line he would be scrapping this bill and starting over. Unfortunately he doesn't and since he campaigned on changing the tone, and running a more open government and hasn't he is more guilty of hypocrisy than other politicians that make no bones about being partisan.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):

Nothing in that has anything to do with the desperation that the President is now showing.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 31):
What's really funny is that when polls said Americans wanted the U.S. to pull out of Iraq, the same conservatives said we must ignore the polls!!

What would really be funny is if you could produce a link to a poll that said that. Americans tired of the war, but never did the majority say pull out immediately. Well let me help you out.

http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq2.htm

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Okie
Posted 2010-03-19 05:02:08 and read 3578 times.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 25):
meanwhile..the rest of the world sits back and laughs at how appalling the state of US health care is.

That is why we should get to gather a special envoy to go to Haiti and other countries to get contributions to help with our "appalling" heathcare.  Wow!


Okie

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2010-03-19 06:46:55 and read 3552 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 38):
What would really be funny is if you could produce a link to a poll that said that. Americans tired of the war, but never did the majority say pull out immediately. Well let me help you out.

Did you actually look at those polls, they actually support what I said.

USA Today/Gallup Poll. March 23-25, 2007. N=1,007 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

"Would you favor or oppose Congress taking each of the following actions in regards to the war in Iraq? How about [see below]?"

"Setting a time-table for withdrawing all U.S. troops from Iraq no later than the fall of 2008"
Favor 60%
Oppose 38%
Unsure 2%

So 60% of American's (a far stronger majority than those that oppose healthcare reform) wanted U.S. troops out by Fall 2008. However, the Administration and conservatives ignored this poll.

USA Today/Gallup Poll. Feb. 9-11, 2007. N=1,006 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
"As you may know, the Bush Administration has begun to significantly increase the number of U.S. troops in Iraq to help stabilize the situation there. Do you favor or oppose this?"
Favor 38%
Oppose 60%
Unsure 2%

Again, the overwhelming majority of those polled did not want the surge, but the Administration did it anyway.

I can keep going, but I think the point is clear. So I'll ask this, why should Obama all of the sudden simply follow the polls on healthcare, but Conservatives should completely ignore polls when making their decisions on war??

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Baroque
Posted 2010-03-19 07:10:12 and read 3546 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 40):
should completely ignore polls when making their decisions on war?

Was is sacred FlyPNS1.    But bugger your health. Just need to keep it the way it is with it being more expensive, giving higher mortality rates in some critical groups, lower longevity compared with most countries with state health systems, insurance tied to employment causing lack of flexibility in the labour market, and, oh yes, large very profitable insurance companies. That is nirvana, relax and enjoy it. You just know it is good for you.   

Ed: where the heck has Check spelling gone, has it been treated by the US health system and are the insurance companies trying to decide if it was a pre-existing condition?  duck 

[Edited 2010-03-19 07:12:08]

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: CometII
Posted 2010-03-19 08:08:37 and read 3523 times.

It's over republicans/conservatives. And they deserve it. They can scream and shout all the way to Justice Roberts, but health care reform is gonna happen. Democrats have the votes.

If conservatives were really so concerned about the principle of being against government run healthcare, when they held congress for all those years they would have REFORMED the system. They would have jammed through all the proposals they now claim will cost far less and lower premiums: tort reform, interestate clauses, and all the rest.

Yet, they allowed for years and years for 10% inflation in healthcare as salaries grew zilch, and millions of people being pushed out after paying their dues for in some cases decades, because they discovered a cancer on you. How long did you guys think that would be sustainable among the public? I'm no fan of this bill in many respects, but bottom line, democrats pushed for their ideas, republicans sat there from 1994 through 2006 and except for Medicare plan B (ironically, an entitlement), did nothing to overhaul the underlying system.

The cries of ''we have proposals'', thus have sounded shallow and just act of desperation or deflection. Now, consevatives need to accept and live with the new reality and the result of their inaction in the past.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: arrow
Posted 2010-03-19 08:22:14 and read 3516 times.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 41):
Ed: where the heck has Check spelling gone, has it been treated by the US health system and are the insurance companies trying to decide if it was a pre-existing condition?

        

Maybe it's my 40 years of writing and editing, starting with manual typewriters and a blue pencil, but I never use spell check. I got used to proofing everything I write, and still miss stuff.

But sticking with the US health insurance analogy -- your spell check doesn't work now because you had the temerity to use it too often, and it was cancelled pending a review of the premiums. Not to worry though, you can take advantage of spell-check tourism and migrate to another country (ANY other country), where it will work at half the cost and do a better job.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2010-03-19 08:22:22 and read 3514 times.

Quoting CometII (Reply 42):
Democrats have the votes.

If they have the votes, then the House would have already voted for the Senate-approved bill and been done with it. Last time I checked (this morning's paper), the Democrats in the House are still short a few votes... the actual number differs somewhat from report-to-report at the moment.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: arrow
Posted 2010-03-19 08:31:59 and read 3505 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 40):
So I'll ask this, why should Obama all of the sudden simply follow the polls on healthcare, but Conservatives should completely ignore polls when making their decisions on war??

Your missing the point here. War is a constitutional obligation written in stone by the founding fathers, who are of course imbued with that papal concept of infallibility. The health and welfare of citizens, on the other hand, isn't mentioned -- so it's every man for himself. Polls don't figure into that.   

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: mt99
Posted 2010-03-19 08:35:06 and read 3503 times.

Quoting arrow (Reply 45):
. War is a constitutional obligation

So if someone decides that war to invade Canada is necessary - then everyone stand back and let it happen?

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: arrow
Posted 2010-03-19 08:43:46 and read 3492 times.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 46):
So if someone decides that war to invade Canada is necessary - then everyone stand back and let it happen?

Well, I did put a little sarcasm smilie at the end of that -- much as it pained me to have to rely on it. I guess I needed to make the statement even more outrageous than I did. But ... they did have a go at us once back in 1812. Didn't work out so well.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-19 08:58:48 and read 3482 times.

Quoting Okie (Reply 39):
That is why we should get to gather a special envoy to go to Haiti and other countries to get contributions to help with our "appalling" heathcare.

Our medical care isn't appalling. The financial side of our medical system is appalling We have a policy of cash over care, where insurance profits are more important than caring for the sick.

Quoting arrow (Reply 43):
Maybe it's my 40 years of writing and editing, starting with manual typewriters and a blue pencil, but I never use spell check. I got used to proofing everything I write, and still miss stuff.

I've always been a horrid typist - my fingers just don't seem to work properly. So I use a Mac, which highlights words that don't end up as my brain thought they would.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 44):
If they have the votes, then the House would have already voted for the Senate-approved bill and been done with it.

There were a couple steps first. Step 1 is the CBO delivering the numbers, and they did that yesterday.

Step 2 is the 72 hours of public notice that was promised. We are in the middle of that right now.

Step 3 is the actual vote, which will probably start between 1pm and 2pm Sunday afternoon.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 46):
So if someone decides that war to invade Canada is necessary - then everyone stand back and let it happen?

It's too cold there in the winter and some people there speak French. No way, unless of course there is sufficient oil there - in which case the Republicans may start thinking about it.   

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: seb146
Posted 2010-03-19 09:07:33 and read 3473 times.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 20):
Yet the bastards want to start taxing NOW. The voters will feel nothing but another government hand in their back pocket, and yet further expansion of the government's powers.

The right-wing is pissed off that the health care bill is not being paid for. But, if it is paid for, they are still pissed off.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 20):
She knows how sick she makes people, and she knows that with her being at the front of this, Obama is using her as a political shield. She's done.

When a right-winger stands up for what they believe and sticks to it, they are to be commended. When a left-winger does the exact same thing, they are bad, evil, sick, socialist, communist, liberal trash. Hmmmmm......

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-19 09:40:33 and read 3459 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 40):
Did you actually look at those polls, they actually support what I said.

I'm afraid they don't. You said:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 31):
What's really funny is that when polls said Americans wanted the U.S. to pull out of Iraq, the same conservatives said we must ignore the polls!!

Then you pick the following polls to try and coborate that position:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 40):
So 60% of American's (a far stronger majority than those that oppose healthcare reform) wanted U.S. troops out by Fall 2008. However, the Administration and conservatives ignored this poll.

They wanted a time table and that poll was taken in 2007. In addition is does not ask if you wish the President to take action to get them out but rather Congress. In addition the poll was taken in 2007. Which party was in charge of Congress in 2007? To substantiate, your quote of the poll (highlights are mine):

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 40):
USA Today/Gallup Poll. March 23-25, 2007. N=1,007 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

"Would you favor or oppose Congress taking each of the following actions in regards to the war in Iraq?

You missed the actual poll question regarding an immediate pull out versus a more protracted and thought out one.

"In your opinion, should the United States withdraw troops from Iraq right away, or should the U.S. begin bringing troops home within the next year, or should troops stay in Iraq for as long as it takes to win the war?"

.

Withdraw Right Away Withdraw Within Year Stay as Long As It Takes Unsure
% % % %
ALL reg. voters 20 43 31 6
Democrats 32 58 8 2
Independents 19 47 26 8
Republicans 8 24 61 7


As well as the Fox poll asking the same question:

.

"Based on General Petraeus's new report, do you think the United States should pull out all troops immediately, pull out all troops gradually over the next year, pull out after Iraqi troops are capable of taking over, or, send more troops?"

Pull Out Immediately Pull Out Gradually After Iraqis Capable Send More Troops Unsure
% % % % %
9/11-12/07 22 42 24 2 10


Clearly there was no majority support for pulling out immediately even as late as 2008. That is also the year in which the Bush Administration began negotiations with the Iraq government on withdrawl of virtually all U.S. troops by 2011, essentially the same plan the Obama Administration is following today.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 40):
I can keep going

You could, but you just keeping digging yourself a deeper hole to climb out of.

In addition, when asked if the democratric party run Congress had done enough or not:

"Do you approve or disapprove of the way Democrats in Congress are handling the situation with Iraq?"

Approve Disapprove Unsure
% % %
9/14-16/07 31 57 12

So the democratic run Congress did not listen to the electorate then, just as they are not listening now. At least they remain true to form even if they forget whom they are there to represent. Blame the Bush administration all you want, the democrats, when give a chance to walk their talk, punted.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Slider
Posted 2010-03-19 09:47:02 and read 3453 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
Semantics in health care is focused on money. I'll trust the Democrats to care for Americans before Republicans any day of the week.

That's where you and I differ. I trust NO ONE in Washington to care for me. I want no help, I trust no one to make those decisions for me. I'm an individual. A person. A sentient being with God-given liberty and freedom.

Enjoy wearing those chains and shackles, ken.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
How do you vote an oligarch into power? The House members go up each 2 years. The President every 4 years and Senators face the voters every 6 years.

Such naivete Ken, really. Please don't play dumb. We need hard term limits for starters.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 34):
Dude, please don't say that. I would like to think that we on A-Net can have an intelligent conversation without bringing up the words "death panels". Oh and BTW, if you actually believe Psycho Palin and her beliefs in death panels, then I truly pray for you, because you need it.

When someone else has the authority to approve or disapprove whether I receive a medical treatment beyond my doctor or myself, you can call it what you want. Death panels is a nice catchy moniker though--but if you prefer something else, have at it. See what some of the cases in the Uk have wrought and come talk to me later.

And if you want to use the words "intelligence" and "health care debate" in the same sentence, then you'd realize that free market solutions and legitimate reforms could get it done.

Instead, Obama's strong-arming it, and Congress is essentially being bribed to pass it. Bismarck Bribe, Louisiana Purchase, Cornhusker Kickback, Cash for Cao, etc, etc, etc....

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Baroque
Posted 2010-03-19 09:47:58 and read 3452 times.

Quoting arrow (Reply 43):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 41):
Ed: where the heck has Check spelling gone, has it been treated by the US health system and are the insurance companies trying to decide if it was a pre-existing condition?

Maybe it's my 40 years of writing and editing, starting with manual typewriters and a blue pencil, but I never use spell check. I got used to proofing everything I write, and still miss stuff.

Mmmm, might try and see if I can route my posts through you for Ed - bit of content would not go astray either mind you. I find my spelling abilities degrading, partly due to using MS grammar to fix things I should see but do not and some a.netters do there levle best to destroy what remanes of my abilities to spell.

Rough rule of thumb for authors, the Ed is almost always right, and reviewers are about 50% wrong. I remember having to write to one Ed and point out to him that one reviewer was illiterate (he corrected extant to extinct - which is relevant to the US health problems) and the other clearly innumerate as he was unable to subtract two numbers having a decimal point and two places and get the right answer (also it seems relevant to US health).

Quoting arrow (Reply 47):
Didn't work out so well.

Oh I don't know, they arranged for some redecorations at the White House so I am told.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2010-03-19 10:05:19 and read 3452 times.

You're desperately looking for excuses. And what about in 2006, when conservatives were still in control of Congress and the White House?

USA Today/Gallup Poll. July 21-23, 2006. N=1,005 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
"Here are four different plans the U.S. could follow in dealing with the war in Iraq. Which ONE do you prefer? Withdraw all troops from Iraq immediately. Withdraw all troops by August 2007, that is, in 12 months' time. Withdraw troops, but take as many years to do this as are needed to turn control over to the Iraqis. OR, Send more troops to Iraq." Options rotated

Withdraw
Immediately 19%
Withdraw by
August 2007 33%
Take as Long
as Needed 38%
Send More
Troops 7%
Unsure 2%


So, a total of 52% of American's wanted the U.S. out of Iraq by August 2007 or earlier. Conservatives ignored this majority opinion.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: qantas077
Posted 2010-03-19 10:35:51 and read 3432 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 53):
So, a total of 52% of American's wanted the U.S. out of Iraq by August 2007 or earlier. Conservatives ignored this majority opinion.

and while we're at it, most of the small amount of detainees at GITMO are afforded better health care than some Americans...makes you wonder, and if it doesn't it bloodywell should.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: futurepilot16
Posted 2010-03-19 10:53:11 and read 3421 times.

Quoting Slider (Reply 51):
When someone else has the authority to approve or disapprove whether I receive a medical treatment beyond my doctor or myself

And where exactly in the bill does it say this? Or did you just take it from a recording of Rush Limbaugh?

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-19 10:56:54 and read 3421 times.

Quoting Slider (Reply 51):
njoy wearing those chains and shackles, ken.

The last time I wore anything close to chains & shackles was when I was serving in the Navy. Oddly enough THAT didn't bother me one little bit.

Quoting Slider (Reply 51):
Such naivete Ken, really. Please don't play dumb. We need hard term limits for starters.

Term limits also means not being able to vote for the person you want to see serve you and your District or State. Some voters actually like to elect politicians who have experience in the job.

Quoting Slider (Reply 51):
When someone else has the authority to approve or disapprove whether I receive a medical treatment beyond my doctor or myself, you can call it what you want.

What do you think 1-800-MOMMY-MAY-I is for?

Quoting Slider (Reply 51):
Death panels is a nice catchy moniker though--but if you prefer something else, have at it.

OK - Health Insurance Companies. You may have some high school graduate sitting at a computer making a decision on your health care, but, hey, it's private enterprise so you'll be happy with it.

Quoting Slider (Reply 51):
See what some of the cases in the Uk have wrought and come talk to me later.

Let's see. My wife's aunt just outside of London died a couple of years ago - at age 87. She had received two total hips (a UK invention) and her husband had one. Her brother is still going strong - hitting 90 and another brother is Australia is in his 80s. No one in the family in the UK has any problems receiving care they need - and at a cost that they can afford.

Same with relatives in Australia. The health care they need is available and they won't go bankrupt. They may also receive leading edge treatments before then are available to you. Like total hip replacements.

Quoting Slider (Reply 51):
then you'd realize that free market solutions and legitimate reforms could get it done.

What you want to realize and what your heros have delivered on in the past are two different things. The free market has NOT delivered care at anything close to the the costs that other countries are able to achieve. We have good medicine in this country - we just pay too much for it (twice the price) and exclude far too many people.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: arrow
Posted 2010-03-19 11:01:24 and read 3422 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 53):
So, a total of 52% of American's wanted the U.S. out of Iraq by August 2007 or earlier. Conservatives ignored this majority opinion.

Good effort, but you're wasting your time. DX will admit that Iraq was a mistake (which I suspect a majority of Americans have believed for a while now) when the flat earth society successfully runs candidates for office. The number of true believers (in the Iraq misadventure) dwindles every year, but they are a hardy bunch and plying them with facts and figures is futile.

It will be fascinating to see how the results of the recent election in Iraq play out, now that Maliki appears to be in trouble with a fairly slim lead, and that committed Americaphobe Moktada al Sadr has risen like a phoenix to be #3 on the charts.

The polls showing lack of support for the health care reforms are hardly surprising. All the disinformation campaigns succeed in sowing doubt. It would be the same if these were Republican proposals and the Democrats were running the opposition. That's the nature of politics, unfortunately, and it's why democracies everywhere are becoming ungovernable.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: qantas077
Posted 2010-03-19 11:03:42 and read 3420 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 56):
Same with relatives in Australia. The health care they need is available and they won't go bankrupt.

I have had a rather unfortunate week with my back (disc prolapse) and since I had it operated on I have moved interstate, my uncle and cousin were my Dr's in Perth, I got on the phone and ask for a recommendation and someone who bulk bills, got my answer and within 2hrs I had an appt and started receiving treatment immediately....my record has also been forwarded, going for X-Ray next week which is around $150, they swipe the Medicare Card and my Debit card and the subsidy is returned to my account there and then.

think I get about $100 of it back...so all up its probably going to cost me $80 for Dr's appts and X-Rays, the rest is covered by the medicare.

its times like this that I thank god I live in Australia.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2010-03-19 11:28:43 and read 3408 times.

Quoting Slider (Reply 51):
When someone else has the authority to approve or disapprove whether I receive a medical treatment beyond my doctor or myself, you can call it what you want.

So your insurance company has no such authority neither does it need one (a brilliant policy you have as well)? So how come it's apparently still legal in the U.S.?

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo
Username: arrow
Posted 2010-03-19 11:29:02 and read 3411 times.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 58):

its times like this that I thank god I live in Australia.

Ditto for me -- but it's Canada.

On Monday I'm off to the chemo clinic for my fifth (and if I'm lucky last) round of chemo for my leukemia. This is round two (first was three years ago). All told, the cost of treatment has already gone over $200K. Out of my pocket - nada. I'll have to do it again, hopefully not for a few years -- this brand of Leukemia (CLL) is not curable - yet.

But my health insurance is not in jeopardy, nor will the premiums climb because I'm so sick. I shudder to think what my financial stats would be if I lived about 100 km south of the border in the US. Treatment cost would likely be double, I'd be paying for a good piece of it regardless of insurance; I'd be in danger of being cut off, and if not my ongoing premiums would skyrocket.

This kind of stuff (me and other boomers) is going to put tremendous financial pressure on our system, and we're going to have to initiate our own reforms just to keep up with the costs. But it staggers me that the US -- which has exactly the same demographic challenge we do, is already double our cost structure and looking like it might get worse.

One possible salvation for us? Our health minister is now actively pursuing setting up a system of private clinics and/or expanded public ones, to attract health care tourists from the US. We can offer services at a considerable discount to what the US offers, but at outrageous profit for us. The idea is to pump the outrageous profit into our public system and lessen the need for premium hikes or tax increases.

Story here:

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/trave...oon+Falcon+says/2665969/story.html

Lots of controversy of course.The left hates anything that might make money and they are just as ideologically-hidebound as US conservatives are. All I can say is, thank you America!

[Edited 2010-03-19 11:35:54]

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-19 14:35:17 and read 3383 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 53):
And what about in 2006, when conservatives were still in control of Congress and the White House?

What about it? The majority said

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 53):
Take as Long
as Needed 38%
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 53):
So, a total of 52% of American's wanted the U.S. out of Iraq by August 2007 or earlier. Conservatives ignored this majority opinion

You can't add up the losers to say the winner didn't win. Doesn't work that way. If that were the case then President Clinton didn't win either of his elections since more people voted against him than for him in total!

Quoting arrow (Reply 57):
Good effort

Yeah it was. I guess he probably tries to work the grading bell curve at school that way to say he should have gotten an A on a test.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: futurepilot16
Posted 2010-03-19 15:07:01 and read 3368 times.

Quoting arrow (Reply 60):
On Monday I'm off to the chemo clinic for my fifth (and if I'm lucky last) round of chemo for my leukemia. This is round two (first was three years ago). All told, the cost of treatment has already gone over $200K. Out of my pocket - nada. I'll have to do it again, hopefully not for a few years -- this brand of Leukemia (CLL) is not curable - yet.

Shhhh, dude you shouldn't write that here. The righties on the thread might see it and call you a freeloader. According to them, anyone who sits back and receives gov't assistance is one. It's the main reason why they're fighting down the bill. They don't like to know that a person who is not as fortunate as others, is getting free health care payed for by the people, even though that health care is saving your life.

I saw the most disgusting video on crooks and liars (the website). This guy who had Parkinson's disease sat down next to an anti health care rally with a sign around his neck saying he had Parkinson's and that he needs the health care reform in order to afford his meds. You know what they did? They shooed him away and told him "there are no free handouts over here" (referring to where they were protesting). Then they started throwing dollar bills at him, telling him to use that to pay for his meds and doctor visits. Keep in mind that this guy looked like he was about in his 70s. Some of these health care rallies really put into perspective how disgusting people can get.

Quoting arrow (Reply 60):
But my health insurance is not in jeopardy, nor will the premiums climb because I'm so sick.

I've seen situations where entire families go absolutely broke because someone in their family has cancer. You're very fortunate to live where you do. Here, it's a different story. Your family would have bills stacked to the ceiling, while you struggle to maintain your health. Unfortunately, a lot of the time people pass away with all these bills falling back on their families, after receiving our so called "best health care system in the world".

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: arrow
Posted 2010-03-19 16:25:14 and read 3346 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 61):
You can't add up the losers to say the winner didn't win. Doesn't work that way.

Actually -- it does work that way in polling. Polling isn't an a election, it's an assessment of mood and opinion. And a majority is 50% plus one. That 38% is a plurality, not a majority. And if 52% answered on the same side of the fundamental question -- stay or go -- you can call it a majority. That they differed on timing doesn't make the 38% the "winner."

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-19 21:09:02 and read 3310 times.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 58):
its times like this that I thank god I live in Australia.
Quoting arrow (Reply 63):
Actually -- it does work that way in polling. Polling isn't an a election, it's an assessment of mood and opinion. And a majority is 50% plus one. That 38% is a plurality, not a majority. And if 52% answered on the same side of the fundamental question -- stay or go -- you can call it a majority. That they differed on timing doesn't make the 38% the "winner

It makes it the majority opinion since the other opinions have little in relation to each other. There is an entire year spread between immediately and August 2007, hardly a consensus. It would be like adding the "add more troops" to the "stay as long as it takes".

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Baroque
Posted 2010-03-19 22:36:48 and read 3299 times.

Quoting arrow (Reply 57):
and that committed Americaphobe Moktada al Sadr has risen like a phoenix to be #3 on the charts.

Now you mention MaS, wonder why the Dems have not run a series of ads about the health bill, using the photograph of MaS that he has on his posters as the face of the GOP on health, would work a treat.

Quoting DXing (Reply 61):
Quoting arrow (Reply 57):
Good effort

Yeah it was. I guess he probably tries to work the grading bell curve at school that way to say he should have gotten an A on a test.

Do you know how bell curves work?

If you get a bunch of earthworms and test them, some will get an A. Look at Sen Fielding.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: seb146
Posted 2010-03-20 17:12:26 and read 3241 times.

Here's what us patrotic Americans do: When the right gets control of Congress, keep the pressure on for health care reform. Keep rallying, keep calling Congress, keep up the call for reform. Especially after November. Let's see just how serious these right-wingers are about reform. Let's just see if they really have the best idea and will do everything to enact it or, if they, as usual, ignore it all and spend more money on something else and call it "what the people want."

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-20 17:24:47 and read 3233 times.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 66):
Let's see just how serious these right-wingers are about reform.

The right wing is about taking care of the insurance companies.

If health reform passes Sunday, however, the Republicans face the issue of repealing some very desirable parts of the bill - like pre-existing condition discrimination being illegal for kids, not allowing insurance companies to drop policy holders, banning caps for various diseases, etc.

There can be little doubt that the Republicans will be pushing for repeal of the bill and the Democrats will be showing just what improvements will be jerked away from Americans. That will be one hell of a fight - can't wait to see it.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-21 10:52:17 and read 3153 times.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 66):
Let's see just how serious these right-wingers are about reform.

They've been serious and has been shown numerous times, were for passing many of the reforms in the bill. Also as has been shown, the democratic party, as late as a year ago, was only interested in single payer government run health care. If there is any silver lining to be had in this horrendous legislation it is the fact that we at least escaped that fate for the time being. But as more than one democratic leader has said already, this bad bill is but the beginning, they'll be back for more later.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 67):
If health reform passes Sunday, however, the Republicans face the issue of repealing some very desirable parts of the bill - like pre-existing condition discrimination being illegal for kids, not allowing insurance companies to drop policy holders, banning caps for various diseases, etc.

All those can be, and could have been enacted while President Bush was in office, and don't require a single tax payer dollar to spent on a giant new bureaucracy . This is the part of the bill that spells "free lunch" and that the majority of Americans rightly believe, based on past experience of the goverment, that won't be cost controlled and will, as most government bureaucracies tend to do, continue to grow and cost far more than originally planned.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 67):
There can be little doubt that the Republicans will be pushing for repeal of the bill and the Democrats will be showing just what improvements will be jerked away from Americans. That will be one hell of a fight - can't wait to see it.

I look forward to seeing them defend the tax hikes with no supposed benefits for four years, the immediate medicare cuts, how the States will have to pay for the expanded medicaid coverage after 2018, and most of all, the mandated purchase of health insurance policies that are only deemed "minimum" by the government. All parts of the bill.

I also look forward to them explaining why the "doc fix" wasn't included in the bill, which by CBO's estimates put the bill in the red. Finally I look forward to them defending their decision to pass a piece of legislation that a clear majority of Americans have shown for months they don't want without even a straight up or down vote, only arcane parlimentarian motions and a, as Congressman Hastings put it "There ain't no rules around here", mentality.

Fortunately I have a feeling that the individual mandate will be the unraveling of this legislation in the courts as it clearly oversteps any bounds the Constitution allows for.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-21 11:11:01 and read 3154 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 68):
Fortunately I have a feeling that the individual mandate will be the unraveling of this legislation in the courts as it clearly oversteps any bounds the Constitution allows for.

If the mandate is struck down there may well be changes, focused on single payer taxes as a movement to a single payer system. There may also be taxes raised on insurance companies who do not allow pre-existing conditions, put caps on coverages, drops sick people, etc. Those in Congress will not be totally impotent in moving forward. The mandate is simply one approach to avoid a public option. My bet is that the liberal secretly want to drop mandates and simply have an income based tax for a single payer system.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-21 13:55:24 and read 3119 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 69):
There may also be taxes raised on insurance companies who do not allow pre-existing conditions, put caps on coverages, drops sick people, etc.

Since the legislation already calls for the outlawing of pre-existing conditions what company would there be to tax?
Same with caps, coverages, and sick people. By the time this monstrosity gets cut down by the courts the GOP may well be in charge of Congress again and the legislation will either die, or be substantially changed so that it is market based instead of government based. Then we can see some real savings versus another trillion + in the hole.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-21 14:17:13 and read 3107 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 70):
Since the legislation already calls for the outlawing of pre-existing conditions what company would there be to tax?

Discrimination for kids ends within 6 months IIRC, but adults get to wait until later - meaning that only part of hte ER crowd will be reduced.

I will be very surprised if, long term, the private health insurance companies don't start pushing for a "public option" for patients with expensive medical conditions. It's clear that they want nothing to do with any sick person who they can rid themselves with and I think that is coming in a very few years.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: TeamAmerica
Posted 2010-03-21 14:31:50 and read 3092 times.

Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
Remember Sen. DeMint from South Carolina? Remember his comment last summer that if the GOP could stop President Obama's health care plans it would be his waterloo?

Curious what you will call it now...with Health Insurance Reform almost certain to be passed this evening, and President Obama scheduling an event tonight where he most likely will sign it into law.

If this is not Mr.Obama's Waterloo, then it must be a historic victory for him...right?   

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Klaus
Posted 2010-03-21 20:17:26 and read 3067 times.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 72):
If this is not Mr.Obama's Waterloo, then it must be a historic victory for him...right?

Well, maybe this was Obama's Waterloo after all – he just turned out not to have played the role of Napoleon in it after all!   

One needs to remember that Waterloo not just marks a historic defeat, but also a historic victory for somebody else (Wellington / Blücher)...

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Baroque
Posted 2010-03-21 22:18:44 and read 3039 times.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 73):
also a historic victory

A fair point indeed.

but how would you assess his role, a Wellington or more a Blücher? I would go for the latter, but really I find the whole thing so stupid that it is difficult to summon the fortitude to follow it all that closely.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Klaus
Posted 2010-03-21 22:54:59 and read 3026 times.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 74):
but how would you assess his role, a Wellington or more a Blücher? I would go for the latter, but really I find the whole thing so stupid that it is difficult to summon the fortitude to follow it all that closely.

I think I've already flogged that poor analogy as far as it could ever go (or even beyond).   

And as much as I loathe Boehner, apart from the tactical (and possibly strategic) defeat he's just suffered I wouldn't really identify him with Napoleon either (nor would I get my hopes up to see him banished to Saint Helena, as entertaining as it sounds).

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Baroque
Posted 2010-03-21 23:31:26 and read 3009 times.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 75):
And as much as I loathe Boehner, apart from the tactical (and possibly strategic) defeat he's just suffered I wouldn't really identify him with Napoleon either (nor would I get my hopes up to see him banished to Saint Helena, as entertaining as it sounds).

Ah, but does anyone know if he likes green wallpaper? However, that is never going to work in Ohio, down in Louisiana the bugs might have got going to produce arsine. So you are right not to get hopes up. Also there might possibly be a ban on making green dyes in the good old fashioned way. Maybe the GOP has excemptions from Health and Safety laws that would still allow a suitable wallpaper though???

Now THAT is how to flog an analogy Klaus!!!      

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-22 05:46:55 and read 2989 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 71):
Discrimination for kids ends within 6 months IIRC, but adults get to wait until later - meaning that only part of hte ER crowd will be reduced.

Within 90 days of signing a high risk pool will be enacted. See page 45.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...ong_bills&docid=f:h3590eas.txt.pdf

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 72):
Curious what you will call it now

I won't call it anything. The President was the one who first said it wasn't about him, but in the end it was all about him, by his own word.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Klaus
Posted 2010-03-22 06:09:10 and read 2967 times.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 76):
Now THAT is how to flog an analogy Klaus!!!

If I only knew what has spurred that vicious imagination of yours...!   

Quoting DXing (Reply 77):
I won't call it anything. The President was the one who first said it wasn't about him, but in the end it was all about him, by his own word.

Quote?

In the statement I've seen him give after the vote he was explicitly and clearly concentrating on the benefits for the american people and for the economy, only quoting the republican obsession with him in passing.

But I guess your perception is another case in point.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Baroque
Posted 2010-03-22 06:15:42 and read 2958 times.

What a wonderful place is a.net

On one thread, I can read that a set of changes that appear to be based in large part on GOP alternatives to the proposals of the dreaded Hills will lead the US into Socialism, a planned economy and perdition, while on another I can learn that Airbus has outcompeted poor old hobbled Boeing due to "Airbus being organized under Socialism, planned economies thus sending Boeing into near perdition"!

Well do make up your mind(s). But I will not ask if socialism is good or bad, cos those using the term do not understand it in the first place.

Meanwhile, sympathies to all those Americans who have clarity of thought about this and to whom a health system is of immense and personal importance. It must be bloody agonizing to listen to all this nonsense.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-22 06:22:50 and read 2952 times.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 78):
Quote?
Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
One caucus member told POLITICO that Obama won him over by “essentially [saying] that the fate of his presidency” hinged on this week’s health reform vote in the House. The member, who requested anonymity, likened Obama’s remarks to an earlier meeting with progressives when the president said a victory was necessary to keep him “strong” for the next three years of his term.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Klaus
Posted 2010-03-22 06:26:25 and read 2948 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 80):
ne caucus member told POLITICO that Obama won him over by “essentially [saying] that the fate of his presidency” hinged on this week’s health reform vote in the House. The member, who requested anonymity, likened Obama’s remarks to an earlier meeting with progressives when the president said a victory was necessary to keep him “strong” for the next three years of his term.

Not really strong evidence in context.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-22 06:51:34 and read 2938 times.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 81):
Not really strong evidence in context.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 78):
But I guess your perception is another case in point

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Klaus
Posted 2010-03-22 07:02:44 and read 2934 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 82):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 81):
Not really strong evidence in context.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 78):
But I guess your perception is another case in point

Oh, come on.

You were making a claim as if you actually had an official statement from Obama, but the president confidentially massaging a representative for an desirable vote is about as far removed from that as it gets, even if that anonymous quote can be believed at all.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2010-03-22 07:10:47 and read 2921 times.

Enclosed is something by the President that he kindly e-mailed me. I don't think he'd mind me posting it here.



Friend --

For the first time in our nation's history, Congress has passed comprehensive health care reform. America waited a hundred years and fought for decades to reach this moment. Tonight, thanks to you, we are finally here.

Consider the staggering scope of what you have just accomplished:

Because of you, every American will finally be guaranteed high quality, affordable health care coverage.

Every American will be covered under the toughest patient protections in history. Arbitrary premium hikes, insurance cancellations, and discrimination against pre-existing conditions will now be gone forever.

And we'll finally start reducing the cost of care -- creating millions of jobs, preventing families and businesses from plunging into bankruptcy, and removing over a trillion dollars of debt from the backs of our children.

But the victory that matters most tonight goes beyond the laws and far past the numbers.

It is the peace of mind enjoyed by every American, no longer one injury or illness away from catastrophe.

It is the workers and entrepreneurs who are now freed to pursue their slice of the American dream without fear of losing coverage or facing a crippling bill.

And it is the immeasurable joy of families in every part of this great nation, living happier, healthier lives together because they can finally receive the vital care they need.

This is what change looks like.

My gratitude tonight is profound. I am thankful for those in past generations whose heroic efforts brought this great goal within reach for our times. I am thankful for the members of Congress whose months of effort and brave votes made it possible to take this final step. But most of all, I am thankful for you.

This day is not the end of this journey. Much hard work remains, and we have a solemn responsibility to do it right. But we can face that work together with the confidence of those who have moved mountains.

Our journey began three years ago, driven by a shared belief that fundamental change is indeed still possible. We have worked hard together every day since to deliver on that belief.

We have shared moments of tremendous hope, and we've faced setbacks and doubt. We have all been forced to ask if our politics had simply become too polarized and too short-sighted to meet the pressing challenges of our time. This struggle became a test of whether the American people could still rally together when the cause was right -- and actually create the change we believe in.

Tonight, thanks to your mighty efforts, the answer is indisputable: Yes we can.

Thank you,

President Barack Obama

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-22 07:14:11 and read 2907 times.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 83):
You were making a claim as if you actually had an official statement from Obama, but the president confidentially massaging a representative for an desirable vote is about as far removed from that as it gets, even if that anonymous quote can be believed at all.
Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
Added Serrano: “He was subtle, but that was the underlying theme of the meeting — the importance of passing this for the health of the presidency.”

You can choose not to believe it if you wish, that does not make it any less true.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: MoltenRock
Posted 2010-03-22 07:31:11 and read 2888 times.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 79):
Well do make up your mind(s). But I will not ask if socialism is good or bad, cos those using the term do not understand it in the first place.

Meanwhile, sympathies to all those Americans who have clarity of thought about this and to whom a health system is of immense and personal importance. It must be bloody agonizing to listen to all this nonsense.

This is what happens when you have this much money the American "ideal" government they tout so often. The electorate's incredibly short attention span is mind numbing. How they can forget the Republican's ran up $3 trillion in additional deficits and yet can now whine, cry, and gnash their teeth over "spending". Give me a break.

The insurance lobbying organization spent a few hundred million $$$ to defeat this bill. Now that the spine of reform is installed making tweaks and adjustments mean the insurance lobbying morons will never again be able to raise this much ruckus because of the American electorate they created of the ADHD American general electorate because all the adjustments are boring and detailed quite heavily. Laws and lawmaking isn't sexy. Americans just care about who "won", and for that Democrats will be in great shape in 2012 certainly, and maybe as soon as this November for the mid-term elections.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Klaus
Posted 2010-03-22 07:32:40 and read 2888 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 85):
You can choose not to believe it if you wish, that does not make it any less true.

That getting healthcare passed was important for the Obama presidency is a no-brainer.

Your claim that it was the main motivation for Obama still doesn't follow from that, especially given the massive risk he had to take.

I find it quite a bit more plausible that it was in fact the escalating health crisis with millions of americans uninsured which prompted the Democrats and Obama to tackle it anyway. After all, the democratic members of both houses need a tangible success for their constituencies as much as Obama does – if not more so!

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-22 09:58:12 and read 2854 times.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 87):
Your claim that it was the main motivation for Obama still doesn't follow from that, especially given the massive risk he had to take.

That is not my claim. My claim was that last summer he was emphatic that is was not about him. After the election of Senator Brown and the apparent death of the bills, that tune changed. As the story in the OP relates, this was not the first time in the past few weeks that it became about him and his Presidency. That is a 180 degree turn from last summer.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 87):
After all, the democratic members of both houses need a tangible success for their constituencies as much as Obama does – if not more so!

Evidently 34 of them did not share your view.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Klaus
Posted 2010-03-22 13:42:58 and read 2819 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 88):
That is not my claim. My claim was that last summer he was emphatic that is was not about him. After the election of Senator Brown and the apparent death of the bills, that tune changed. As the story in the OP relates, this was not the first time in the past few weeks that it became about him and his Presidency. That is a 180 degree turn from last summer.

Nonsense.

Even while the priority was plausibly rather on getting a sorely needed piece of reform realized, of course such an undertaking would automatically have major repercussions for the presidency.

What sense is there in denying that both obvious aspects were relevant at the same time?

You are trying to claim that everything was "really" exclusively about the presidency. In the fierce battle about this bill, how plausible do you think it is that any competent president could have the luxury of ignoring the tactical ramifications even while pursuing the matter on its own merits?

That would be delusional. There will never be an exclusive either/or. And there shouldn't be, regardless of who's in the White House.

Quoting DXing (Reply 88):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 87):
After all, the democratic members of both houses need a tangible success for their constituencies as much as Obama does – if not more so!

Evidently 34 of them did not share your view.

Even they need to present something to their constituencies which they can sell as a "success", and be it their resistance to the bill, if they think that's what their people want them to do..

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: santosdumont
Posted 2010-03-22 14:14:44 and read 2813 times.

Given the completely unhinged, menstrual reaction of the GOP -- which seems to have transmogrified from political party to screeching hare-brained banshee -- I don't think a healthcare Waterloo for Obama is in the offing.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-22 18:15:46 and read 2787 times.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 89):
Nonsense.

Nonsense is your continual attempt to try and portray the 180 degree turn of the President. When faced with the fact that the legislation was rejected, it became about him and his legacy. In the summer of 2009 when a GOP Senator pointed out that simple fact the President himself went out of his way to refute that notion.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 89):
You are trying to claim that everything was "really" exclusively about the presidency

No, I am claiming that in the end, when the legislation was rejected in Congress, his last desperation pass was "pass it for me".

Quoting Klaus (Reply 89):
Even they need to present something to their constituencies which they can sell as a "success", and be it their resistance to the bill, if they think that's what their people want them to do..

As of the last poll before the vote, roughly 56% of the electorate did not want this particular bill passed into law. It was not that they were against health care reform, just the reform that this legislation represented. Using that as a guide then 219 Congressmen and women didn't do what their voters wanted them to do.

Quoting santosdumont (Reply 90):
I don't think a healthcare Waterloo for Obama is in the offing.

I think November will decide that. Still even if the GOP is restored to the majority that presents a silver lining to the President as it gives him a villian to run against in 2012.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-22 20:48:05 and read 2758 times.

Quoting santosdumont (Reply 90):
Given the completely unhinged, menstrual reaction of the GOP -- which seems to have transmogrified from political party to screeching hare-brained banshee -- I don't think a healthcare Waterloo for Obama is in the offing.

OMG! I almost wet myself over that one.

I think I'll have that put on a plaque and send it to an ultra conservative friend of mine.

And I even put you on my Resp List .  

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: KPDX
Posted 2010-03-22 21:26:56 and read 2729 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 92):
OMG! I almost wet myself over that one.

I think I'll have that put on a plaque and send it to an ultra conservative friend of mine.

And I even put you on my Resp List .

  

And the liberal circle-jerk continues...

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: MoltenRock
Posted 2010-03-23 00:05:23 and read 2720 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 91):
As of the last poll before the vote, roughly 56% of the electorate did not want this particular bill passed into law. It was not that they were against health care reform, just the reform that this legislation represented.

Actually the extremely inaccurate Rastarded poll shows it at 54% these days, not 56% from back in Dec. But you as they too, fail to mention is that this 54% includes a number of progressives that didn't feel the bill went far enough. (You too could figure that out if you pay Scott Rassmussen $19.95 per month to see. He's a snake oil salesman, and why no client of mine would ever use a Rassmussen poll result as any serious guide to behavior.) But of that 54% those who are progressive and feel it didn't go far enough ranged from 16% to 21% (4% +/-). You're now down to 33% to 38% roughly of those really opposed to it. Sadly, on either side I doubt more than 15% actually read the bill and knew what was in it, and what it would mean.

Billions of $$$ and tens of thousands of hours of faux press and hate mongering from the wingnuts on talk radio, FAUX news, insurance company attack ads, etc... couldn't derail this, and is no surprise why so many uneducated morons were against the bill. Sadly, Republicans could have made the bill better rather than this childish "just say no" garbage they've tried since Obama was elected. They have fewer and fewer issues they can run on come this November, and for that I wouldn't count on any "rout" as Republicans predict. Just like Medicare, the average American will love the bill and the new protections it gives them. No one gives a rip how it was passed or reconcilliation was used, or whatever..... ain't going to work.

Give it up, and get on board.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Klaus
Posted 2010-03-23 02:39:37 and read 2697 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 91):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 89):
You are trying to claim that everything was "really" exclusively about the presidency

No, I am claiming that in the end, when the legislation was rejected in Congress, his last desperation pass was "pass it for me".

Any major legislative campaign also affects the standing of the major players. Using that obvious fact in persuasion of dithering supporters is a no-brainer and simply common sense.

You're clutching at straws to try convincing yourself that this was anything but a substantial policy decision where the GOP earned itself and received a major defeat.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-23 08:05:17 and read 2657 times.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 94):
You're now down to 33% to 38% roughly of those really opposed to it.

            So that's how your justifying a "no" vote these days? BTW only 3 of the 34 voting no were progressive. The rest are considered right of center.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...olitics/1108-health-care-vote.html

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 94):
Sadly, on either side I doubt more than 15% actually read the bill and knew what was in it, and what it would mean.

On that we will agree, but of those that did, they understand this does absolutely nothing to control health care costs and spends substantial sums increasing the size of government. This bill was all about increasing government power over the individual.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 94):
Billions of $$$ and tens of thousands of hours of faux press and hate mongering from the wingnuts on talk radio, FAUX news, insurance company attack ads, etc... couldn't derail this, and is no surprise why so many uneducated morons were against the bill.

Versus Billions spent on special one state deals, side deals for later consideration in other bills, federal jobs, as well as uncounted back room deals since much of the bill was put together behind supposedly transparent doors, one airplane ride that it took to buy this legislation into law, 38 speeches to include 3 before a joint session of Congress, an entire day of infomercial on a national network with a supposedly unbiased news department, uncounted interviews, and complete falsehoods delivered from Congressional leaders during press conferences.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 94):
Sadly, Republicans could have made the bill better rather than this childish "just say no" garbage they've tried since Obama was elected.

Sadly, months after the GOP posted their ideas on the internet and spoke of them in interviews with the press, democratic leaders to include the President continued to deny that they even had any ideas. The packaged was hand delivered to the President at the GOP meeting in January, and was again brought up at the health care summit. All were dismissed out of hand or given token lip service (tort reform). The GOP rightly rejected the notion that some how government can better manage health care than the private sector given the dismal financial failure that is medicare.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 94):
They have fewer and fewer issues they can run on come this November, and for that I wouldn't count on any "rout" as Republicans predict.

They will only need two, this bill, and the fact that unemployment will still be high and as much as the polls have shown the population has wanted the government to deal with that rather than health care reform for the better part of a year now. Not only that, the side deals and the out right buying of votes has completely turned the electorate on this Congress. Congress has just a 12% (avg) approval rating. There's good reason for that as they demonstrated over the past few months that they are able to completely ignore the will of the people in the peoples house. That, along with the scandals that have been non-stop this past year from the supposedly drained swamp, are going to spell a huge turnover this fall.

Don't like rasmussen, well then pick your poll. For Congress, they're all bad.

http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/jobapproval-congress.php

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 94):
Just like Medicare, the average American will love the bill and the new protections it gives them. No one gives a rip how it was passed or reconcilliation was used, or whatever..... ain't going to work.

Medicare began immediately. With few exceptions most of the benefits of this monstronsity only kick in starting 4 years after taxes begin to be collected. Not to mention the unconstitutional purchasing mandate begins immediately. This is not like medicare and it is not being received as such.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 94):
Give it up, and get on board.

As long as more money is coming out of my pocket I won't give up nor will millions of other Americans. There is a better way.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 95):
Any major legislative campaign also affects the standing of the major players. Using that obvious fact in persuasion of dithering supporters is a no-brainer and simply common sense.

Agreed, but that does not change the simple fact that he did a 180 degree turn from last summer on how much this bill was about him.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 95):
You're clutching at straws to try convincing yourself that this was anything but a substantial policy decision where the GOP earned itself and received a major defeat.

And I don't think you quite understand the meaning of a Pyrrhic victory.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: santosdumont
Posted 2010-03-23 08:11:10 and read 2652 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 91):
Quoting santosdumont (Reply 90):
I don't think a healthcare Waterloo for Obama is in the offing.

I think November will decide that.

Former GWB speechwriter David Frum already is logging the vote as a "crushing" defeat for his own party.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Baroque
Posted 2010-03-23 08:14:28 and read 2644 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 96):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 95):
You're clutching at straws to try convincing yourself that this was anything but a substantial policy decision where the GOP earned itself and received a major defeat.

And I don't think you quite understand the meaning of a Pyrrhic victory.

Too early to tell who did which version of a Pyrrhic victory - that is who are which personae dramatis.

Late Night live last night Philip Adams to Bruce Shapiro, "Major achievement for Obama to be able to unite the GOP to this extent". Subsequent discussion hinged around what might be summarised as would the uniting prove to be "Rope a dope".

[Edited 2010-03-23 08:15:22]

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-23 08:23:03 and read 2634 times.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 98):
Too early to tell who did which version of a Pyrrhic victory - that is who are which personae dramatis.

Not really, there are 30+ plus house seats where democrats are in serious trouble already and the election is still months off. Supposedly 'safe' Senators like Boxer in CA are already in dead even fights for their jobs. Senator Reid is a dead man walking, and several politicians from both houses like Senator Dodd of CT have simply given up any hope and are retiring.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: arrow
Posted 2010-03-23 08:28:19 and read 2634 times.

Quoting santosdumont (Reply 97):
Former GWB speechwriter David Frum already is logging the vote as a "crushing" defeat for his own party.

Yeah -- but he's one of those commie/pinko/leftist Canadians ... at least that's how Rush would likely describe him. What does he know about true conservative values -- he gets to use Canadian health care at an annual cost (for his family) of about $1200. He may have taken out US citizenship (2007 I think) but he's probably a communist mole.

So on topic -- is anyone comparing Obama with Wellington yet? A little premature, I guess, since no one has yet booked passage to Elba for the Republican Party. And it took two kicks to finally deep-six Napolean, didn't it?

It's interesting, now that the bill has passed, that we're trying to get our politicians to recognize the need for reform in our own system before spiralling costs (us baby boomers) sink us out of sight. I hope we tackle it with better results than the US has. I don't think Obama went nearly far enough. He said the bill is a major reform, not a radical reform. You needed a radical reform.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-23 08:43:55 and read 2625 times.

Quoting arrow (Reply 100):
It's interesting, now that the bill has passed, that we're trying to get our politicians to recognize the need for reform in our own system before spiralling costs (us baby boomers) sink us out of sight.

I find it interesting that at the signing ceremony the President is still having to sell the bill!!

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Klaus
Posted 2010-03-23 08:58:57 and read 2627 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 96):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 95):
Any major legislative campaign also affects the standing of the major players. Using that obvious fact in persuasion of dithering supporters is a no-brainer and simply common sense.

Agreed, but that does not change the simple fact that he did a 180 degree turn from last summer on how much this bill was about him.

He used a different emphasis in talking with one colleague than the one he was and is using everywhere else. That is simply not a "180 degree turn", it is normal business as usual.

Quoting DXing (Reply 96):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 95):
You're clutching at straws to try convincing yourself that this was anything but a substantial policy decision where the GOP earned itself and received a major defeat.

And I don't think you quite understand the meaning of a Pyrrhic victory.

Do you, really? This was not it.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2010-03-23 09:19:15 and read 2622 times.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 102):
Quoting DXing (Reply 96):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 95):

It's the battle of the I-bars!

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-23 11:40:32 and read 2596 times.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 102):
He used a different emphasis in talking with one colleague than the one he was and is using everywhere else. That is simply not a "180 degree turn", it is normal business as usual.

Last summer the bill was not abuot him. In the past 2 weeks, by his own admission, it became about him and his legacy. That is a 180 degree reversal plain and simple. Whether you agree or not does not change that simple fact.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 102):
Do you, really? This was not it.

If this legislation leads to massive losses for the party, and if the Courts strike down the individual mandate, the bill is rendered even more meaningless in cost control than it is now. Given the amount of democratic candidates that are in serious jeporady of keeping their seats based on their constituents opposition to this bill now law, then this day will truly be a Phrrhic victory. What part of the majority of those polled did not like this legislation that you don't understand is baffling. It is not that they don't want reform, the don't want this particular reform package and I believe the democrats will pay heavily in November for not listening. As such, it also becomes the Presidents problem since much of what he wants to do depends heavily on having a same party Congress.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Baroque
Posted 2010-03-23 18:53:36 and read 2571 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 99):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 98):
Too early to tell who did which version of a Pyrrhic victory - that is who are which personae dramatis.

Not really, there are 30+ plus house seats where democrats are in serious trouble already and the election is still months off. Supposedly 'safe' Senators like Boxer in CA are already in dead even fights for their jobs. Senator Reid is a dead man walking, and several politicians from both houses like Senator Dodd of CT have simply given up any hope and are retiring.

Oh, I did not know the election results were declared. Not in our papers yet.

Quoting arrow (Reply 100):
I hope we tackle it with better results than the US has. I don't think Obama went nearly far enough. He said the bill is a major reform, not a radical reform. You needed a radical reform.

Here in open forum, and much as we all love Obama dearly, I challenge the Canadians to do worse!!!   

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: MoltenRock
Posted 2010-03-23 19:14:44 and read 2568 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 96):
Versus Billions spent on special one state deals, side deals for later consideration in other bills, federal jobs, as well as uncounted back room deals since much of the bill was put together behind supposedly transparent doors, one airplane ride that it took to buy this legislation into law, 38 speeches to include 3 before a joint session of Congress, an entire day of infomercial on a national network with a supposedly unbiased news department, uncounted interviews, and complete falsehoods delivered from Congressional leaders during press conferences.

Hey, it's hard enough to get anything done at all, much less major with all the money that drowns US politics. When you have a party that has gone off the rails into Cookoo For Cocoa Puffs Land, it's an amazing win. Sadly, Republicans could have participated and helped craft even better legislation but decided to play spoiler by saying "no, nyet, nadda, no way, la la la la la la la la la I can't hear you" vs. being a serious partner of Democrats. Republicans were trounced at the last 2 elections. Remember, elections have consequences, deal with it. No one gives a shyte about polls unless it supports their underlying positions. Polls don't matter. Elections do. And Republicans have been blown out 2 times in a row now. A Republican "victory" in November isn't assured, and doesn't matter until it happens, and if it happens. Until then, sit down, take a chill pill, and come up with some new ideas other than, "no".

Quoting DXing (Reply 96):
Sadly, months after the GOP posted their ideas on the internet and spoke of them in interviews with the press, democratic leaders to include the President continued to deny that they even had any ideas.

B.S. The bill as was signed contained hundreds of Republican amendments. The "death panel" idea was Republican. The "insurance mandate" was a Republican cornerstone.

Quoting santosdumont (Reply 97):
Former GWB speechwriter David Frum already is logging the vote as a "crushing" defeat for his own party.

In fact I believe it said it was Republican's Waterloo. LOL! How appropo. Bob Dole got blown out because he was perceived as bitter and angry, just like all the Tea Baggers come across today.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-24 09:31:28 and read 2531 times.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 105):
Oh, I did not know the election results were declared. Not in our papers yet.

For so many seats that are supposedly "safe" to be as close as they are at this point, those persons holding those seats are in serious trouble and they know it. Hence some of the "retirements". There is a financial incentive, in this country, for an elected politician to "retire" rather than be beaten out of office.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 106):
When you have a party that has gone off the rails into Cookoo For Cocoa Puffs Land, it's an amazing win.

I assume you are talking about the Demcoratic party since for the better part of the past year they had a 60 seat super majority in the Senate and didn't need a single GOP vote to get anything passed. Yet all the self imposed deadlines they imposed on themselves slipped by and in the end the had to result to arcane parlimentary procedures to get anything passed.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 106):
Sadly, Republicans could have participated and helped craft even better legislation but decided to play spoiler by saying "no,

Sadly the democratic party, to include the President, weren't interested in any GOP input with the sole exception of the Senate finance committee when it became politically expedient to get a couple on board.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 106):
Remember, elections have consequences, deal with it.

Evidently that escaped the democrats in Virginia, New Jersey, and Massachusetts, as I expect it to escape them when they suffer massive setback in November. The cry will be that somehow the GOP stole the election, their favorite refrain.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 106):
Polls don't matter. Elections do.

Just keep telling yourself that. Of course when the polls said that we should be looking for a way to get out of Iraq they mattered very much.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 106):
Until then, sit down, take a chill pill, and come up with some new ideas other than, "no".

Exactly what the GOP was saying to the democrats a few years back and some how it was unAmerican to suggest that. What goes around comes around, get used to it.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 106):
B.S. The bill as was signed contained hundreds of Republican amendments

Breadcrumbs. None of the major initiatives that would actually do much to control cost, which this law fails miserably at, were considered or if they were, were voted down along straight party lines.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 106):
The "insurance mandate" was a Republican cornerstone.

How about a link to some proof on that. Not a link to Senator McCain since he is but one member of the GOP, but a link to a GOP site that shows it as a plank.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 106):
The "death panel" idea was Republican.

The death panel was written in first in Hillarycare, and then brought forward in the democratic House bill. Feel free to prove me wrong.


This law does one thing, increases government power over the individual. Nothing more. It does not control cost and once the doc fix is in place won't even create any savings in the deficit if it ever would have. It may well take 30 years as welfare did but at some point the citizens will realize what a financial sham this law is and what harm it is doing to individuals and the country as a whole. Prsident Obama will be seen in the same light as President Carter. Someone with a good heart but completely inept at running a country.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Klaus
Posted 2010-03-24 09:34:13 and read 2532 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 107):
The death panel was written in first in Hillarycare, and then brought forward in the democratic House bill. Feel free to prove me wrong.

There never were any "death panels" in any draft of the bill. They were a complete fabrication by the GOP, heavily propagated by Limbaugh and Fox.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-24 10:28:24 and read 2519 times.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 108):
There never were any "death panels" in any draft of the bill. They were a complete fabrication by the GOP, heavily propagated by Limbaugh and Fox.

That they have never been there is a complete denial by the left in this country. The original House legislation called for "end of life" discussions. The President himself orated the belief that at a certain age, it may well be in the best interest of a public plan not to perform certain operations or procedures on an individual instead saving those for someone with more to give back to society.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Klaus
Posted 2010-03-24 10:35:25 and read 2516 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 109):
That they have never been there is a complete denial by the left in this country.

Please produce a literal quote from the bill defining what you're calling "death panels".

If you can't, you need to retract that claim.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-24 13:11:20 and read 2497 times.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 110):
Please produce a literal quote from the bill defining what you're calling "death panels".

If you can't, you need to retract that claim.

The end of life discussions contained in the original House bill and the Presidents own words describe them. End of story. As usual you don't have to agree but it does not change the fact of what was in the legislation and what the President said.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2010-03-24 13:36:20 and read 2489 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 111):
The end of life discussions contained in the original House bill and the Presidents own words describe them. End of story.

Would you happen to have a reference handy?

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Klaus
Posted 2010-03-24 14:01:30 and read 2482 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 111):
The end of life discussions contained in the original House bill and the Presidents own words describe them.

So you have no evidence for your claim since it is simply fabricated.

I had thought so.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-24 14:39:49 and read 2476 times.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 112):
Would you happen to have a reference handy?
Quoting Klaus (Reply 113):
So you have no evidence for your claim since it is simply fabricated.

I had thought so.

As usual, you think wrong, but that puts you in line with most leftists. Of course I am still waiting for an explanation of your comment in another thread that "A stable health care environment is one of the bases of a sound economy". I don't demand explanations as you do however as I am a patient person.

http://newt.org/tabid/102/articleTyp...leView/articleId/4342/Default.aspx

http://www.healthtransformation.net/..._news_details?pressrelease.id=2731

President Obama said something at his White House healthcare event last week that offers a disturbing hint of our future under his vision of health reform.

He suggested one way to save costs is not to spend on procedures that “evidence shows [are] not necessarily going to improve care” for the sick and the dying.

“Maybe you’re better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller,” the President said.


I can cite more sources if you wish but the quote was widely reported on. It was in response to a reporters question about her mothers age (somewhere in the 80's) and an operation.

As to the House death panels:


http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf
Page 431 starting on line 17. Also see page 632.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=104719

Because of the outrage from the electorate the provisions were stripped in the final Senate plan. The one the House did not really vote for the other day which is now some how law.

[Edited 2010-03-24 14:54:07]

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2010-03-24 15:14:56 and read 2463 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 114):
President Obama said something at his White House healthcare event last week that offers a disturbing hint of our future under his vision of health reform.

Well, thanks anyway, Newt and Rush were not precisely my idea of a primary source, but I got there all right:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid...nkillers_and_forgoing_surgery.html (1:15 onwards)

Remember: he's talking about a "personal choice", there's no mention of any government intervention. Having seen my father-in-law sufferingly die from asbestos-related lung cancer, I can only agree that sometimes hospice care a.k.a. "painkillers" is the best option. (Which our public healthcare organised for him.)

[Edited 2010-03-24 15:17:22]

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-24 18:36:46 and read 2449 times.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 115):
Well, thanks anyway, Newt and Rush were not precisely my idea of a primary source, but I got there all right:

Which is exactly why I added:

Quoting DXing (Reply 114):
I can cite more sources if you wish

In the beginning he admits that a persons "spirit" should not be a determing factor which flies in the face of what the womens doctor said. At the end he says that at some point we need to look at just giving her a pill and foregoing the surgery. Again that flies in the face of what her doctor said and the women, at the time of the health care event was 105 after having the pace maker installed at age 100. He goes on to say that he doesn't want beauracracy making that decision but that medicare and medicaid are already doing so and he does not say he will change that. So the assumption that at some point despite what a persons health is like overall, some things will be denied. He completely backs up the point I was making.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2010-03-25 06:40:35 and read 2421 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 116):
He completely backs up the point I was making.

I can only see and hear the current President saying he sees "end of life discussions" as belonging to the personal realm, if these were the original point of discussion here.

But here's something constructive you could take up in the GOP. Discuss with your fellows the huge increase in incidence we're likely to see in cardiovascular diseases and most of all in diabetes. Ditto Alzheimer. How is your party going to act to prevent them (esp. diabetes) so that those end of life discussions could be postponed the best we can, and money saved too?

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Klaus
Posted 2010-03-25 06:49:27 and read 2419 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 114):
As usual, you think wrong, but that puts you in line with most leftists. Of course I am still waiting for an explanation of your comment in another thread that "A stable health care environment is one of the bases of a sound economy". I don't demand explanations as you do however as I am a patient person.

It was a qualified statement in an extremely fast-moving thread, not a bizarrely fabricated claim like yours.

Contrary to you, apparently, my time is somewhat limited. I may check back there, though.

Quoting DXing (Reply 114):
President Obama said something at his White House healthcare event last week that offers a disturbing hint of our future under his vision of health reform.

He suggested one way to save costs is not to spend on procedures that “evidence shows [are] not necessarily going to improve care” for the sick and the dying.

“Maybe you’re better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller,” the President said.

In short: The actual efficiency of treatment methods is supposed to be monitored.

If a certain kind of expensive treatment has been shown to be ineffective, it may make more sense to get the same quality of effect by cheaper means. (And if somebody still wants the expensive procedure even so, (s)he can still pay to have it done regardless, as far as I know.)

For someone being so intent on curbing unnecessary expense, that should be completely natural to you.

Quoting DXing (Reply 114):
As to the House death panels:

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf
Page 431 starting on line 17. Also see page 632.

Literal quote from there:

Page 4, line 17 ff:

Quote:
INITIATIVE FOR END OF LIFE CARE.— (1) PHYSICIAN’S QUALITY REPORTING INITIA-
TIVE.—Section 1848(k)(2) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395w–4(k)(2)) is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraphs:
‘‘(3) PHYSICIAN’S QUALITY REPORTING INITIA- TIVE.—
‘‘(A) IN GENERAL.—For purposes of re- porting data on quality measures for covered professional services furnished during 2011 and
any subsequent year, to the extent that meas- ures are available, the Secretary shall include quality measures on end of life care and ad- vanced care planning that have been adopted or endorsed by a consensus-based organization, if appropriate. Such measures shall measure both the creation of and adherence to orders for life- sustaining treatment.

This is about monitoring the quality of care, obviously. What is wrong with that? Again, it is an efficiency measure.

Quote:
(c) INCLUSION OF INFORMATION IN MEDICARE & YOU HANDBOOK.—
(1) MEDICARE & YOU HANDBOOK.— (A) IN GENERAL.—Not later than 1 year
after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall
433 update the online version of the Medicare & You Handbook to include the following: (i) An explanation of advance care planning and advance directives, includ-
ing—
(I) living wills; (II) durable power of attorney; (III) orders of life-sustaining
treatment; and (IV) health care proxies.
(ii) A description of Federal and State resources available to assist individuals and their families with advance care plan- ning and advance directives, including—
(I) available State legal service organizations to assist individuals with advance care planning, including those organizations that receive fund- ing pursuant to the Older Americans Act of 1965 (42 U.S.C. 93001 et seq.);
(II) website links or addresses for State-specific advance directive forms; and
(III) any additional information,
as determined by the Secretary. (B) UPDATE OF PAPER AND SUBSEQUENT VERSIONS.—The Secretary shall include the in- formation described in subparagraph (A) in all paper and electronic versions of the Medicare & You Handbook that are published on or after the date that is 1 year after the date of the en-
actment of this Act.

This is about providing the patients and their families with the means to take informed decisions themselves, not anybody else. Nothing more.

This section of this bill is completely common-sense and there is not a hint of a nefarious intent or plausible consequence.

You have no point here.

Quoting DXing (Reply 114):
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=104719
Quote:
The version of President Obama's universal health care plan pending in the U.S. House would require "end-of-life" counseling for senior citizens, and the former lieutenant governor for the state of New York is warning people to "protect their parents" from the measure.

At issue is section 1233 of the legislative proposal that deals with a government requirement for an "Advance Care Planning Consultation."

Betsy McCaughey, the former New York state officer, told former president candidate Fred Thompson during an interview on his radio program the "consultation" is no more or less than an attempt to convince seniors to die.

This is a wilfull misrepresentation for political purposes, to be used on people who were unwilling or too lazy to read the above quoted section of the bill themselves.

It is factually false as can be found by simply reading the bill which says absolutely nothing like that.

Quoting DXing (Reply 114):
Because of the outrage from the electorate the provisions were stripped in the final Senate plan.

Because of the mob frenzy which became politically damaging even though the accusations were laughable and utterly, completely false and totally without any merit whatsoever.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-25 11:23:47 and read 2385 times.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 118):
It was a qualified statement

With no proof whatsoever.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 118):
not a bizarrely fabricated claim like yours.

My claim is supported by evidence, unlike your statement which had no supporting documentation. We all know how much you just hate to be questioned, that we should just accept what you say as fact but guess what, it doesn't work that way with me. You're free to keep saying it and I'll feel free to keep showing how wrong you are.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 118):
In short: The actual efficiency of treatment methods is supposed to be monitored.

Not what he was saying. He said twice that it might be "benificial" to withhold the proper treatment. Benificial to whom? That would be under government run health care. Under private market rules if you have the money and want the treatment you can get it no questions asked. That's the difference between our country and many others. We believe in the indivdual over the government. You believe as if you belong to an ant colony.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 118):
This is about monitoring the quality of care, obviously. What is wrong with that? Again, it is an efficiency measure.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 118):
This is about providing the patients and their families with the means to take informed decisions themselves, not anybody else. Nothing more.

Until the passage of this law both those provisions were voluntary. Now they are mandatory. Of course that means we now have to spend funds on them where as before we only spent funds if the patient wanted too. As the government assumes more and more control, and costs begin to spiral out of control as they will given the law of supply and demand, at some point they will be used to decline services based on age or health condition.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 118):
Because of the mob frenzy which became politically damaging even though the accusations were laughable and utterly, completely false and totally without any merit whatsoever.

Because people in this country don't trust the government to run their health care. They said as much for well over 6 months of this debate and the Congress and the President just ignored them. They (the government) said that medicare would cost somewhere around 30 billion by this time when it was passed in the '60's. Last year it cost almost 500 billion dollars. Depending on the government to keep its word on the cost of an entitlement program is what is laughable and completely without merit.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2010-03-25 11:32:51 and read 2381 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 119):
We believe in the indivdual over the government. You believe as if you belong to an ant colony.

Ant colonies actually go far .. spreading and living almost everywhere in the world!

But as far as healthcare goes, having been subjected to socialied healthcare for well over 40 years, I've not met the Mr Malevolen T. Regulator there's supposed to be. I tend to believe he only lives in the soul of certain Americans.

[Edited 2010-03-25 11:33:58]

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-25 12:09:16 and read 2369 times.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 120):
I tend to believe he only lives in the soul of certain Americans.

I've met more than my fair share and they make their home in the bowls of the U.S. government.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2010-03-25 12:31:47 and read 2363 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 114):
He suggested one way to save costs is not to spend on procedures that “evidence shows [are] not necessarily going to improve care” for the sick and the dying.

This will have to happen if we are to manage healthcare costs. You can have all the tort-reform and cross-border selling you want and it won't put a dent in healthcare costs, if you can't control end-of-life costs. The reality is that right now lots of patients demand procedures that will do little if anything to prolong their lives, yet the procedures are carried out anyway and the costs are dumped onto taxpayers.

Quoting DXing (Reply 119):
Under private market rules if you have the money and want the treatment you can get it no questions asked.

That's true, except that the VAST majority of the population can't afford to pay for expensive end-of-life care directly out of their pockets. Instead, they rely on private/government insurance which just dumps all the costs on future generations.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-25 12:45:01 and read 2353 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 122):
This will have to happen if we are to manage healthcare costs.

The installation of a pace maker, which this woman needed, costs the same regardless of the individual. What you are really saying if you believe what you say is that you agree that rationing will be norm under this law.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 122):
That's true, except that the VAST majority of the population can't afford to pay for expensive end-of-life care directly out of their pockets.

Which is why the government should have gotten into the catastrophic care area years ago. Same as they sell flood insurance. People in that situation are usually in need. Americans don't mind helping out someone in need.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2010-03-25 13:22:39 and read 2349 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 121):
I've met more than my fair share and they make their home in the bowls of the U.S. government.

Did not understand in case that was a joke of some sort.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2010-03-25 13:57:44 and read 2342 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 123):
What you are really saying if you believe what you say is that you agree that rationing will be norm under this law.

Rationing will become the norm, with or without this law. It's basic economics. Healthcare is a limited resource, where demand has been rapidly outstripping supply for quite a while now. This drives prices up and overtime will price many people out of the market....effectively rationing care. We're not quite there yet, but one way or another we will get there.....unless we have a massive surge in supply (not likely) or a massive decline in demand (not likely either).

Quoting DXing (Reply 123):
The installation of a pace maker, which this woman needed, costs the same regardless of the individual.

That's not the point (and not necessarily true either). The point is that there is a value judgement about whether the procedure will provide a meaningful improvement in quality of life or longevity. I don't know all the details of this case, but it's a value judgement that will have to be made if we want to control costs.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: MoltenRock
Posted 2010-03-25 16:07:54 and read 2335 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 107):
The death panel was written in first in Hillarycare, and then brought forward in the democratic House bill. Feel free to prove me wrong.

And as it turns out, the cause of advance planning has been championed especially strongly by a pro-life Republican -- U.S. Sen. Johnny Isakson of Georgia.

Isakson is a member of Senate Health committee that played a key role in shaping the health care reform legislation. He successfully offered an amendment in committee that allows funds for a government-funded program that provides in-home services to people with disabilities to be used for advance care planning, according to the national Hospice and Palliative Care Organization.

http://www.southernstudies.org/2009/...-life-republican-from-georgia.html

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: arrow
Posted 2010-03-25 16:50:24 and read 2333 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 122):
This will have to happen if we are to manage healthcare costs. You can have all the tort-reform and cross-border selling you want and it won't put a dent in healthcare costs, if you can't control end-of-life costs.

And that applies across the board whether you have a government-run system or a private sector run system. This is the part of the argument against socialized health care I don't get -- the supply/demand ratio is the same, and there will be tough decisions ahead as the boomers start draining the lifeblood out of ALL health systems -- I'm already doing my share. Whether it's a government making the decision or a private insurer is irrelevant. Our government already spends 40% of its budget on health care and that number is going to get bigger if there is no action taken to reform how and what services are delivered -- and our system is way more efficient than any in the US.

Quoting DXing (Reply 123):
The installation of a pace maker, which this woman needed, costs the same regardless of the individual.

Since I have one of those (and have had one for 30 years now), I've got some understanding of the debate. Does it make sense to put a pacemaker with a 10-year shelf life in a 90 year old man/woman when you'd get the similar results, much cheaper, with medication? They are expensive gizmos, and if a patient dies 3 months after a pacemaker implant, that pacemaker goes to the dump. At what point that pacemaker/medication decision becomes important is a tough one -- but I expect there'll come a day (if something else hasn't killed me first) when I'm on that bubble.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 125):
Rationing will become the norm, with or without this law. It's basic economics. Healthcare is a limited resource, where demand has been rapidly outstripping supply for quite a while now.


  

And the boomer onslaught is only just beginning.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-25 18:23:16 and read 2313 times.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 124):
Quoting DXing (Reply 121):
I've met more than my fair share and they make their home in the bowls of the U.S. government.

Did not understand in case that was a joke of some sort.

Should have read bowels.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 125):
Rationing will become the norm, with or without this law.

Not as long as free market rules and the laws of supply and demand are in force.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 125):
That's not the point (and not necessarily true either).

It is absolutely the point. With a free market in charge the woman can get her pacemaker as long as she can afford it or her insurance will cover it. Under Obama care, at some point the decision will be made that a person of her age no longer qualifies due soley to age.

Quoting arrow (Reply 127):
Does it make sense to put a pacemaker with a 10-year shelf life in a 90 year old man/woman when you'd get the similar results, much cheaper, with medication?

Again, if she can afford it and she wants it, I see no reason to deny her. That's the basic difference between a country used to the free market and one used to socialized medicine.

Quoting arrow (Reply 127):
They are expensive gizmos, and if a patient dies 3 months after a pacemaker implant, that pacemaker goes to the dump.

Then we might as well stop all heart transplants since the chance is there that they might keel over in the same time span due to some unforseen rejection.  sarcastic 

[Edited 2010-03-25 18:23:55]

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2010-03-25 19:33:22 and read 2293 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 128):
Not as long as free market rules and the laws of supply and demand are in force.

What do you think will happen if the free market keeps driving prices upward? Eventually, many people will be priced out of the market preventing them from getting healthcare....thereby rationing care to only those who are wealthy.

Quoting DXing (Reply 128):
With a free market in charge the woman can get her pacemaker as long as she can afford it or her insurance will cover it.

But if she can't afford it out of pocket (which few people can), she's relying on her insurance to pay. Her insurance may pay, but only because they can dump the cost on those who are healthy....thereby creating unnecessarily higher costs for those who are healthy. So while its great to give the 90 year old a new pacemaker, it's not so nice to be screwing over someone else in order to do it.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-25 21:15:28 and read 2282 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 129):
What do you think will happen if the free market keeps driving prices upward?

Take a look at the housing market. The same rules apply. Supply and demand demands that if there is less demand the price drops till it meets up with the available supply. Do you think the pacemaker company and the cardiosurgeon are just going to sit there and go broke?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 129):
But if she can't afford it out of pocket (which few people can), she's relying on her insurance to pay.

And if she's been paying into her insurance then she has every right to hold them to the contract.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 129):
Her insurance may pay, but only because they can dump the cost on those who are healthy....thereby creating unnecessarily higher costs for those who are healthy.

That's why you have a health insurance pool. Not everyone will be sick at once.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: MoltenRock
Posted 2010-03-25 22:01:30 and read 2272 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 130):
And if she's been paying into her insurance then she has every right to hold them to the contract.

LMAO! As if Average American, Paul or Penny Patient can successfully "hold a multi-billion $$$ insurance behemoth to a contract" while they are sick and possibly dying to a contract on what is and is not supposed to be paid for.

What a joke.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: MoltenRock
Posted 2010-03-25 22:10:10 and read 2271 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 107):
How about a link to some proof on that. Not a link to Senator McCain since he is but one member of the GOP, but a link to a GOP site that shows it as a plank.

LOL! So I suppose that in the 103rd Congress, on November 22, 1993 when Republicans Orin Hatch, and Chuck Grassley introduced a bill which they were the co-sponsors (Calendar No. 338) and other Republicans then signed onto that was the start of the whole "insurance mandate" movement and they loved, quickly became a tarbaby once Democrats used it in this bill eh? Come on!

Was the Iraq War in the Republican plank? How about the mutli-trillion $$$ bailouts of Wall Street or the prescription benefit, or huge deficits?

Cognitive dissonance at it's finest I tell ya.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo
Username: Klaus
Posted 2010-03-26 03:44:07 and read 2261 times.



Quoting DXing (Reply 119):
My claim is supported by evidence, unlike your statement which had no supporting documentation.

My statement: "A stable health care environment is one of the bases of a sound economy. (Among other things not having to worry about health insurance when switching jobs and limiting the damage to entire families and their otherwise productive members when somebody is getting sick.)"

Your statement: "OMG - Obama wants to kill old people! He has openly said so!" (only slightly paraphrased)

Totally different cup of tea.

Mine was a general and properly qualified statement about how economies work.

Yours was a highly specific claim about what Obama has said and your obvious mis-interpretation of it.

Quoting DXing (Reply 119):
We all know how much you just hate to be questioned, that we should just accept what you say as fact but guess what, it doesn't work that way with me. You're free to keep saying it and I'll feel free to keep showing how wrong you are.

We can discuss my statement, obviously, but you need to bring a bit more to the table than you have so far. Unemployment numbers which everybody knows are completely uncomparable across the pond are extremely weak evidence there, especially given the still pretty bad shape the US economy is in and the rather good one the german economy is in.

Sorry, you don't get out of your "OMG – Obama wants to kill old people!" self-inflicted embarrassment that easily.

Quoting DXing (Reply 119):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 118):
In short: The actual efficiency of treatment methods is supposed to be monitored.

Not what he was saying. He said twice that it might be "benificial" to withhold the proper treatment. Benificial to whom? That would be under government run health care. Under private market rules if you have the money and want the treatment you can get it no questions asked. That's the difference between our country and many others. We believe in the indivdual over the government. You believe as if you belong to an ant colony.

It was absolutely clear in the context of his statement that he was talking about reducing wasteful spending, not withholding care as has been explained.

The GOP chose to misinterpret this statement and the completely unproblematic passage from the bill, but with open eyes it is obvious that this interpretation is entirely bogus and does not hold water.

Quoting DXing (Reply 119):
Until the passage of this law both those provisions were voluntary. Now they are mandatory. Of course that means we now have to spend funds on them where as before we only spent funds if the patient wanted too. As the government assumes more and more control, and costs begin to spiral out of control as they will given the law of supply and demand, at some point they will be used to decline services based on age or health condition.

Your conclusions are not supported by the actual text. Your imagination is running away with no factual basis.

The above literally quoted section of the bill stipulates that patients and their families need to be informed about their options – their options which they have and retain the right to choose from. That absolutely does not support your wild conclusions. Sorry. It's simply not there.

Quoting DXing (Reply 119):
Because people in this country don't trust the government to run their health care.

The government regulates health care and obviously has to do that since the free market simply kicks off the people who need it the most but unfortunately don't happen to be wealthy enough to afford their illness on their own.

You have made abundantly clear that you want the US healtcare system continuing that way. And the tiny number of "teabaggers" have made quite a lot of noise, but have more and more exposed themselves as a collection of racists, homophobes, unhinged gun nuts and vandals – they have destroyed their credibility as participants in a political debate so thoroughly that they've become nothing more than a (bad) joke.

Quoting DXing (Reply 128):
It is absolutely the point. With a free market in charge the woman can get her pacemaker as long as she can afford it or her insurance will cover it. Under Obama care, at some point the decision will be made that a person of her age no longer qualifies due soley to age.

If she's wealthy enough, I'm not aware of anything that could stop her getting the pacemaker anyway.

You should just be aware that the probability and quality of survival after surgery like that at some point in age decreases below that of alternative (and much cheaper) treatment. But if you're able to pay your way, that's still your choice.

If you're not able to pay your way, however (because your insurance has kicked your out of your contract and won't offer you a new one because of a preexisting condition, or if they've jacked up their premiums beyond your capabilities), you will be much better off with the new healthcare system.

Quoting DXing (Reply 130):
And if she's been paying into her insurance then she has every right to hold them to the contract.

With many contracts permitting the insurance companies to drop them from care basically whenever they want, that is a hollow promise.

[Edited 2010-03-26 03:45:08]

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-26 05:17:07 and read 2246 times.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
Mine was a general and properly qualified statement about how economies work.

In your opinion, nothing more.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
Yours was a highly specific claim about what Obama has said and your obvious mis-interpretation of it.

Again, in your opinion, nothing more.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
We can discuss my statement, obviously, but you need to bring a bit more to the table than you have so far

Why, you've brought nothing save an ability to paraphrase, and badly at that.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
Your imagination is running away with no factual basis.

The bill, now law, is clear.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
The government regulates health care

The government will be dictating health care. The government will be setting a minimum standard that they believe everyone should have. Not to mention as of now the government is mandating that to remain a citizen in good standing you must purchase something, whether you want to or not.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
But if you're able to pay your way, that's still your choice.

Well we're finally getting somewhere.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
you will be much better off with the new healthcare system

I'll certainly be a few dollars lighter in the pocket book.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
With many contracts permitting the insurance companies to drop them from care basically whenever they want, that is a hollow promise.

Here we go again. Care to document this breach of contract and how it is rampant?

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2010-03-26 06:39:30 and read 2229 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 130):
Do you think the pacemaker company and the cardiosurgeon are just going to sit there and go broke?

No, they'll just cater their business to the very wealthy. There are already doctors who do this and more are heading down that path. Healthcare will become more of a luxury good that only the wealthy can afford.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2010-03-26 06:53:16 and read 2219 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 134):
Here we go again. Care to document this breach of contract and how it is rampant?

Perhaps this site is all phoney?



Behind the scenes

Rescinding an individual’s health insurance is, unfortunately, a common practice. It’s usually triggered by a claim that raises questions on the part of the insurer (translation: expensive). Many of the large insurance companies have come under fire for routinely seeking out and cancelling the policies of patients with high medical bills.

They review the medical records and initial application for insurance of policyholders who recently submitted big claims. If the insurer is able to find that the policyholder omitted important medical information on his or her application, the plan can be cancelled.

This practice, called rescission, has affected tens of thousands of policyholders with serious illnesses such as cancer and leukemia.

What you should know

In most states, insurers have successfully cancelled health insurance coverage, arguing that errors were found on the application, even if they were made unintentionally by the policyholder. But there have been many recent lawsuits against insurers, and lawmakers are coming down harder on companies engaged in rescission practices.

In fact, in the state of California, the Legislature just approved a measure that would limit the circumstances under which insurers can cancel policies. The bill would require insurers to prove that a consumer purposefully misrepresented medical information on his or her application in order for the policy to be legally rescinded.

It’s not yet law, but the hope is that the bill will be signed by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.

If you’ve been dropped from your insurance and you’ve recently become ill, your radar should immediately go up. Unless your insurance company can demonstrate that you lied or intentionally hid information when you first applied for coverage, you may very well have solid grounds for appeal.

What to do

Figure out what happened. Take a close look at the termination letter sent to you by your insurer. Make sure you understand the reason for being dropped. Are you being accused of omitting or withholding important medical information, or did you just forget to pay last month’s premium (a mistake for which insurers can, unfortunately, cancel your policy)?

If you aren’t clear, make a call to your insurance company to find out. Get the explanation as to why you were dropped in writing.

Appeal

Once you know the reason behind your termination (assuming you feel you’ve been unfairly treated), you have the right to appeal the decision. The letter of termination should include an appeals process, which you’ll need to closely follow.

Read more: http://www.sdnn.com/sandiego/2009-09...-yours-is-terminated#ixzz0jI4A6DQ7

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Baroque
Posted 2010-03-26 06:57:56 and read 2219 times.

Getting back to the Waterloo, in the short term, it now appears (according to someone close to the action) that following the signing, no asteroid struck and it turned out to be a nice day, although it is not recorded how he assessed the niceness of the day if you included his office visitor. But ve must not mention the war as we will not get away with it.

So no Waterloo (YET) and not even a respectable Armageddon - yet.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: arrow
Posted 2010-03-26 07:31:34 and read 2210 times.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 137):
So no Waterloo (YET) and not even a respectable Armageddon - yet.

Well, not quite Baroque. A former Bush speechwriter (a Canadian) is also using the Waterloo analogy -- but in reference to the Republicans. He just got fired for his efforts. Oh well, he was a closet commie anyway.

David Frum fired after lamenting Republican failure on health care

David Frum, the Canadian-born conservative pundit who has been harshly critical of the Republican battle plan against President Barack Obama's health-care overhaul, is unapologetic after being fired Thursday from a right-wing think tank.

“I'm going to remain a conservative whether they want me or not,” Frum told The Canadian Press on Thursday night following his ouster from the American Enterprise Institute, adding he was saddened by the turn of events.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ure-on-health-care/article1512668/

Reminds me of an old joke from years ago -- what's the difference between a prairie cactus and a Tory caucus? In the caucus, all the pricks are on the inside.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Baroque
Posted 2010-03-26 07:45:23 and read 2201 times.

Quoting arrow (Reply 138):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 137):
So no Waterloo (YET) and not even a respectable Armageddon - yet.

Well, not quite Baroque. A former Bush speechwriter (a Canadian) is also using the Waterloo analogy -- but in reference to the Republicans. He just got fired for his efforts. Oh well, he was a closet commie anyway.

Not to joke Arrow, many of the Neo cons started as virulent commies, much more so that the lefties they now rail against. But nice to see he has a Waterloo, but it was Obama's chances of a Waterloo I was suggesting "not yet".

If no Waterloo, we cannot leave him without something for his pains. So we need to ask which analogy it was. Doing a bit of lateral thinking on this, obviously a King's Cross would be unpopular, but how about a Blackfriars? We will not go near a Cockforsters however. Charing Cross is possible, as he was getting quite cross at times. You would probably like him to get some Canada Water and that would be OK as long as it was to drink and not a bucket over the head job. Just hope he does not encounter too much of a problem with the White City. Over to you.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2010-03-26 08:27:31 and read 2197 times.



With Orson Welles enlisted, this one can't be seriously bad?

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: OA412
Posted 2010-03-26 10:06:12 and read 2179 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 119):
Because people in this country don't trust the government to run their health care.

Speak for yourself. I trust the government, which I elected and which I can remove from power if they don't live up to expectations, far more than a private insurance company which is only beholden to its shareholders and the bottom line. The government won't drop me if I get "too sick". The government won't tell me that my high blood pressure is a pre-existing condition and refuse to treat it.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 137):
So no Waterloo (YET) and not even a respectable Armageddon - yet.

  

Quoting arrow (Reply 138):
Oh well, he was a closet commie anyway.

You forget pinko, socialist, atheist, homosexual, etc., etc.  

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-26 11:37:56 and read 2168 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 135):
No, they'll just cater their business to the very wealthy.

Then if they live and work in podunk USA they'll go broke.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 135):
There are already doctors who do this and more are heading down that path.

And the vast majority of them live in major metropolitian areas where there are enough wealthy people to keep their practice alive.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 136):
Perhaps this site is all phoney?

Yep, no souces cited whatsover, just numbers thrown about with reckless abandon.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 136):
This practice, called rescission, has affected tens of thousands of policyholders with serious illnesses such as cancer and leukemia.

Where is the citation to back up this claim?

Here, let me help you out since you once again appear to be citation challenged.

http://www.darkdaily.com/health-insu...s-cancel-policies-of-sick-patients

The House Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations was investigating the common practice by insurance companies’s of rescinding health insurance policies. This hearing was triggered by news reports published by the Los Angeles Times indicating that, over the past five years, the health insurance policies of 20,000 people were denied because of these controversial rescission policies

That would be 4,000 people a year or 333 a month or 11 per day. You don't think 11 people a day lie on their application? And that is in the State of California which has a population of 38,292,687 as of July 1 2009. So the actual fraction of the population affected on a yearly basis would be something on the order of 1/10 of one percent? Welcome to Ken777's world of making the extreme minority out to be the norm.

http://geography.about.com/od/obtain...iondata/a/californiapopulation.htm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 137):
So no Waterloo (YET) and not even a respectable Armageddon - yet.
http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/jobapproval-obama.php

Yep, he's doing real well. I can see the cross country politicking for a bill he has already signed into law is really bumping up his poll numbers.

And Congress, boy did Pelosi help out that bunch this past week!!


http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/jobapproval-congress.php


We'll see what happens come November, although there are a few special elections before then that will be harbingers of things to come.

Quoting arrow (Reply 138):
“I'm going to remain a conservative whether they want me or not,”

Guess he joins David Brooks in the "I'm a conservative..really I am!!" column.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 141):
Speak for yourself.

I speak for 56% of the electorate that did not want this particular bill signed into law. Since Congress didn't listen to us last week, we will speak again in November.

[Edited 2010-03-26 11:42:34]

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: AverageUser
Posted 2010-03-26 11:53:30 and read 2153 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 134):

Here we go again. Care to document this breach of contract and how it is rampant?
Quoting DXing (Reply 142):
Here, let me help you out since you once again appear to be citation challenged.

Marvellous everyday occurrences, DX! First you plead widely for any sources, and then suddenly find they've been under your a** all along!

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-26 12:05:23 and read 2149 times.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 143):
Marvellous everyday occurrences, DX! First you plead widely for any sources, and then suddenly find they've been under your a** all along!

They were under yours as well, we call that lazy over here.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2010-03-26 12:36:11 and read 2141 times.

Quoting DXing (Reply 142):
Then if they live and work in podunk USA they'll go broke.

People can move/retire/change careers. No surprise that there is already a shortage of doctors in most rural areas and small towns.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-26 14:20:18 and read 2126 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 145):
People can move/retire/change careers. No surprise that there is already a shortage of doctors in most rural areas and small towns.

Not in Texas. Thanks to our tort reform small communities that didn't have health care centers prior to its passage now have them. Besides, why would I spend untold dollars in an education to be a doctor only to turn around and change careers to be a locksmith? That makes absolutely no sense.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Ken777
Posted 2010-03-26 16:56:15 and read 2120 times.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
My statement: "A stable health care environment is one of the bases of a sound economy. (Among other things not having to worry about health insurance when switching jobs and limiting the damage to entire families and their otherwise productive members when somebody is getting sick.)"

It is not polite to reply to the flappings of a conservative with a simple, logical statement. Especially if you are a "foreigner".  
Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
It was absolutely clear in the context of his statement that he was talking about reducing wasteful spending, not withholding care as has been explained.

Again. let's not confuse the right. They are so clinging to their death panels and are still in shock from being slapped silly by a woman, of all things! That gal bitch slapped them like no one has in a long time. ROFLMAO!

Even more frightening is the increase in the number of voters who have decided that they actually like the health reform bill now that it is law.

I suppose we must give the conservatives something to hope for in November. I'm starting to believe that they will get less than the 25 house seats that are normal in an off year election.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Klaus
Posted 2010-03-26 17:14:08 and read 2114 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 147):
It is not polite to reply to the flappings of a conservative with a simple, logical statement. Especially if you are a "foreigner".

I apologize for my intransigence.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 147):
Again. let's not confuse the right. They are so clinging to their death panels and are still in shock from being slapped silly by a woman, of all things! That gal bitch slapped them like no one has in a long time.

I'm not so sure – they just insisted on ramming their heads against the wall instead of simply asking for directions to the door...!   

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: DXing
Posted 2010-03-26 18:08:54 and read 2112 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 147):
That gal bitch slapped them like no one has in a long time

Yep, her and her buddies are just flying high in the approval ratings.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 147):
Even more frightening is the increase in the number of voters who have decided that they actually like the health reform bill now that it is law.

Really?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/rasmussen/20...smussen/healthcarerepeal20100325_1

Just before the House of Representatives passed sweeping health care legislation last Sunday, 41% of voters nationwide favored the legislation while 54% were opposed. Now that President Obama has signed the legislation into law, most voters want to see it repealed

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latestpolls/health_care.html

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: MoltenRock
Posted 2010-03-27 00:45:20 and read 2077 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 147):
Even more frightening is the increase in the number of voters who have decided that they actually like the health reform bill now that it is law.

I suppose we must give the conservatives something to hope for in November. I'm starting to believe that they will get less than the 25 house seats that are normal in an off year election.

Yeah, isn't it amazing that once the rhetoric by FOX is gone because they have gone "off the air" on the healthcare bill, and only will talk about other garbage now that Americans are realizing..... "wow, this is a good start". Go figure. By November the approval rating of the bill will be mid-sixty %.

It wouldn't surprise me to see Republicans lose 2 or maybe 3 Senate seats, and a wash in the House.

Topic: RE: Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!
Username: Baroque
Posted 2010-03-27 06:55:51 and read 2052 times.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 150):
Yeah, isn't it amazing that once the rhetoric by FOX is gone because they have gone "off the air" on the healthcare bill, and only will talk about other garbage now that Americans are realizing..... "wow, this is a good start". Go figure. By November the approval rating of the bill will be mid-sixty %.

David Brooks was certainly not very bullish on the position the GOP has plonking itself on the Lehrer Newhour this week. I was a bit abstracted doing one of those maserpieces of modern action art associated with mantling a kit table at the time - place screw K in hole Z and attach nut P all in print too small to read so I might not have paid enough attention. He was certainly a bit shirty about the Tea Party. Just got a new TV and I am wondering if the BlueRay recorder can be set to delete Ms P.


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