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Topic: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: YokoTsuno
Posted 2012-01-26 06:05:37 and read 2886 times.

This incident is the talk of the town here at the moment.

It's about two Indian toddlers placed under child protection in Norway. The reasons for this to happen, at least if I read through the local and Indian news here, are bizarre. I tried to get the Norwegian point of view on this incident by translating one of the links below, but Google translator doesn't make me any wiser either.

Can anyone (Norwegians) shed some light on this story.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?sec...on=news/local/south_bay&id=8512194
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article2829408.ece
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editorial/article2832012.ece

http://www.nytid.no/nyheter/artikler/20120112/uklar-framtid/

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Asturias
Posted 2012-01-26 06:15:29 and read 2880 times.

Not Norwegian, but I speak the language. Basically it seems that the Norwegian local government came on a visit to the couple and had some criticizm on the situation of the children (e.g. that the home had some dangerous environment) and that the mother had post-birth depression.

The main reasoning for the govt. seems to have been the perceived lack of ability of the mother to take care of her children. Apparently the mother admitted once to have hit her son, before realizing that such was illegal in Norway.

They also criticize the mother on how she breastfeeds her daughter and that the children don't have adequate clothing and toys.

asturias

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: MillwallSean
Posted 2012-01-26 18:14:14 and read 2779 times.

www.Aftenbladet.no is the large newspaper in Stavanger. They have followed this a bit. It doesnt seem to be a major issue at all in Norway with fairly little attention given to it. Doesnt seem to have caused any controversy.
There is also this newspaper. http://www.rogalandsavis.no/

Seems to be two sides to the story and we cant know which one thats right.
What we can say is that the Indian couple dont understand how the Norwegian society and its values work.

Personally I think the childcare unit went way way to far when they placed the children in permanent fostercare.
No need for that. But its also pretty clear that by Norweigian standards and legislation these parents arent good enough parents and they desperately need help.

I hope they send the family and their children permanenetly back to India. Best solution for all. The newspaper seems to hint that this is what will take place.
Give the mother a suspended sentence for childabuse (hitting her children) and be done with it. After all the mother has admitted to this and it is illegal in Norway.

For people from warmer climates, some points that might seem trivial really isnt trivial at all.
Wrong clothes in Stavanger, whats the big deal you say?
Ok put it in this perspective no winter clothes in a place where the winter sees months of minusdegrees and where the wind can make a summerday feel like the arctic says hello.

Hitting the children, both children showed signs of having been hit something that is illegal and frowned upon in Norway. Mother admits to have hit the young child once. A child thats less than five months old. You dont hit newborns if you have a stable mind.

The childcare units points to several incidents and marks on the children over a period of time.
The three year old suffers from development problems whatever that is and the childcare unit attributes this to his home environment.
The Indian family refutes this and say the Norweigian childcare unit dont understand Indian childcare methods.
The Norweigian childcare says that everyone in Norway follows Norweigian laws no matter what cultural background.

the mum suffers from a Post natal depression. It means the mum shouldnt be alone with her children.
In Norway the husband would have stayed at home (he still gets salary) and taken care of the family while his wife cured her depression. He didnt, instead he got annoyed at her and there are suggestions of domestic violence.

As said I have no clue whats right and wrong in this case.
But I can see both sides argument and I must say I am sceptical about the reporting on the indian side. I am also sceptical to why the Norweigian childcare unit couldnt send the children to the in laws or grandparents since this is a well educated and rich Indian family with resources to look after them in a safe and proven surrounding.

From having lived in 15 countries or so over the years I might add a personal reflection.
I think its very important to understand the laws and the values of a society that you move to. It might be ok to hit a 3 months old in India, its definately not ok to do so in Norway.
Dont break any laws and the chances of you ending up in trouble is minimal.
For me I cant for the life of me understand all this halleluja anti alcohol stuff in brunei. but I am a guest in brunei and its up to me to accept their laws and values if I am to stay there, same goes for this family. They went to Norway, they have to accept Norweigian law and values when they live there.

Lets hope this story has a happy ending.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: YokoTsuno
Posted 2012-01-27 11:36:38 and read 2705 times.

Thanks for your extensive analysis. I already thought that it wasn't as black and white as depicted here.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 2):
Lets hope this story has a happy ending.

Me too.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-01-27 16:36:37 and read 2659 times.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 2):
Mother admits to have hit the young child once. A child thats less than five months old. You dont hit newborns if you have a stable mind.

And that's not a "western" or "liberal" thing. A child under a year of age is physically fragile and has no working memory. Punishing such a child in any way is abuse. Punishing a child at 2 or 3 when there is working memory is very different.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-01-28 08:32:03 and read 2596 times.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 2):
Wrong clothes in Stavanger, whats the big deal you say?
Ok put it in this perspective no winter clothes in a place where the winter sees months of minusdegrees and where the wind can make a summerday feel like the arctic says hello.

Stavanger isn't all that cold, it rarely drops below zero, and then only in January and February, there are much colder places in Norway.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 2):
In Norway the husband would have stayed at home (he still gets salary) and taken care of the family while his wife cured her depression.

No he can't, the husband can take 2 weeks leave when the baby is born, one week paid the other unpaid, it's mandatory for the father to take 12 weeks paternity leave but this cannot be at the same time as the mother when she is on maternity leave. A friend of my wife suffered from post natal depression, she go f all help from the state, most of her help came from her retired mother and grandmother who took care of the kids when she couldn't, her husband remained at work and took his leave later.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 2):
It might be ok to hit a 3 months old in India, its definately not ok to do so in Norway.

Agreed nobody in control hits a three month old, however the Norwegian anti smacking laws are pretty much useless, parents who beat there children will do so whether it's illegal or not, children who are beaten are usually too scared to speak out; most of the young Norwegians I know are disrespectful and rude, most could have done with a belt around the butts when they were younger. Discipline in Norway is almost non existent amongst young people, schools don't even give out detentions, parents are too scared to do anything in case they get charged with child abuse.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2012-02-04 00:02:09 and read 2412 times.

Looks a cultural difference totally....Many things are normal out here......

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-02-04 01:15:07 and read 2398 times.

The thing is they are living in Norway so they have to live under Norwegian law, if they don't like it they can go home.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2012-02-04 02:59:50 and read 2385 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 5):
Stavanger isn't all that cold, it rarely drops below zero, and then only in January and February, there are much colder places in Norway.

It is currently - (minus) 6 Celcius in Stavanger. Stavanger also has alot of wind - always, so the cold feels alot colder than the meter would indicate.

[Edited 2012-02-04 03:04:08]

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-02-04 14:14:59 and read 2322 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):
The thing is they are living in Norway so they have to live under Norwegian law, if they don't like it they can go home.

I find this comment simplistic at best. Was the poster certain that the couple was fully aware of the relevant law? Did anyone speaking their language and understand their culture explain to them what is expected of them in the context of the environment they were living in? Was the mother's perinatal depression under control? Was treatment afforded to the mother if her condition was affecting her?
As an immigrant l can testify that old habits die hard and subtleties of cultural difference take years even decades to fully adapt to. Further, my mother is a teacher and witnessed several examples of children of immigrant parents being taken away by Child Protection agencies and placed under permanent foster care. Now the parents were not blameless, just as in this case they clearly did something inadequate, but they were not horrible parents who do not deserve to raise their children. The Child Protection agencies often have an one-tracked mind. They were trying to do their job but in the process, rather than helping the parents becoming better at parenting, only managed to alienate the parents, fanning their distrust of authorities, and causing mental trauma to both the parents and the children, thereby pushing a potentially salvageable situation onto the path of no return.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 2):
Personally I think the childcare unit went way way to far when they placed the children in permanent fostercare.

  

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2012-02-05 22:19:04 and read 2242 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):

The thing is they are living in Norway so they have to live under Norwegian law, if they don't like it they can go home.

I think they should do just that.....Any rule which is going to make things difficult,should either be followed or move away from that country....

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Asturias
Posted 2012-02-06 03:57:19 and read 2201 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 9):
Was the poster certain that the couple was fully aware of the relevant law?

While a nice sentiment, ignorance of a law is no excuse for breaking a law. That's a fundament of civil law.

asturias

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: L410Turbolet
Posted 2012-02-06 04:22:54 and read 2193 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 9):
Was the poster certain that the couple was fully aware of the relevant law?

Even if they were not that's still their problem. Ancient Roman principle of "ignorantia legis neminem excusat" has been one of the cornerstones of modern understanding of law. Multikulti advocates will probably sooner or later try challenge that as well, but if it's not values of the society immigrants chose to move into, if it's not language of their country of choice then obedience of laws should be one the last bastion which should not be surrendered otherwise we're back into medieval ages of personality of law and parallel societies.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-02-06 04:39:57 and read 2187 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 9):
I find this comment simplistic at best.

It's like when I was stopped for speeding within days of arriving in Norway, I was travelling at 110kph on a motorway, the road was a good one, no traffic, I assumed the speed limit was 100kph like back in NZ, the speed limit was only 80kph, my ignorance of the speed limit was no excuse for my breaking the law, had I had a Norwegian license I would have lost it. You can't be excused from punishment just because you didn't know you were doing something illegial.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: eaa3
Posted 2012-02-06 06:46:48 and read 2161 times.

Norway is one of those countries where you can have a lot of trust in the authorities. There´s little or no corruption and very few problems, relatively. If the Norwegian Child protective services feel that a child is not being treated well and take the child from it´s parents then I´m quite confident that it was warranted.

Keep in mind that the authorities are almost always under confidentiality rules in which they cannot disclose what they know about a certain case. Therefore in cases like this you´ll quite often just get one side of the story.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-02-06 16:34:18 and read 2103 times.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 12):
Even if they were not that's still their problem.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 13):
You can't be excused from punishment just because you didn't know you were doing something illegial.

I never said the parents should get off scotch free. What I have a problem with is the extent of the punishment. They should been given a chance to prove that they can be law-abiding residents of the country and good parents. Their chance of doing that could be robbed permanently for a felony/crime that they might not even know they were committing or have limited control over.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 13):
had I had a Norwegian license I would have lost it.

You would have a chance to drive again in Norway, the parents may never see their children again. How would you feel if in addition to losing your licence your car is confiscated, your visa is cancelled and you are declared persona non grata?

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 14):
Norway is one of those countries where you can have a lot of trust in the authorities.


No corruption does not mean that everything the government does is correct and no ill-considered. It also does not mean every government worker cannot be heavy-handed in their approach to anything.

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 14):
If the Norwegian Child protective services feel that a child is not being treated well and take the child from it´s parents

This should be a last resort, not the first line of action. If Post 1 is correct it seemed that this was not the case sadly.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: cmf
Posted 2012-02-06 16:46:29 and read 2100 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 15):
They should been given a chance to prove that they can be law-abiding residents of the country and good parents.
Quoting Cerecl (Reply 15):
This should be a last resort, not the first line of action.

From the little experience I have, and much more from other Nordic countries though they tend to be similar, parents are given multiple chances with frequent followups to verify if changes are taking places before children are taken away.

I have no idea how it happened in this case but would be surprised if they were taken at the first occasion unless the kids had severe injuries expected to be from abuse.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-02-09 03:36:39 and read 2006 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 16):
parents are given multiple chances with frequent followups to verify if changes are taking places before children are taken away.

It is very well to follow-up, but there is a huge difference between turning up, making a note about the condition and leaving with the threat that if things don't improve there will be consequences and actually sitting down, talking with the parents, asking them if they are facing any difficulties, whether they understand the laws/regulations and the consequence of failing to comply. It is easy to distinguish between those that could not care less about their children, those who tried but did not quite succeed and those who wanted to but were incapable of raising their children because of health issues within minutes of talking to them. Clearly, the strategies to deal with different cases need to differ. Mental conditions, in particular, can be associated with consideration shame/guilt/stigmas in certain cultures, the parents might be suffering in silence, too afraid/ashamed to seek help. Now that the children got taken away, it will do wonders to the mother's perinatal depression.  
Again, I am not saying the parents in this case are beyond reproach, but I cannot help but feel that there could have been a happier ending if Asturias's account is anywhere close to the truth.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-02-09 04:09:16 and read 1999 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 15):
You would have a chance to drive again in Norway, the parents may never see their children again. How would you feel if in addition to losing your licence your car is confiscated, your visa is cancelled and you are declared persona non grata?

I could have happened, one of my mother-in-laws neighbours is perminantly banned from driving, the only reason why the S.O.B. wasn't deported is because he's a refugee with a family to support.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 17):
It is very well to follow-up, but there is a huge difference between turning up, making a note about the condition and leaving with the threat that if things don't improve there will be consequences and actually sitting down, talking with the parents, asking them if they are facing any difficulties,

The nytid article states that the child protection people had made several visits to the family, I very much doubt that this was a hasty decision. These are inteligent people the father is a senior geoligist for Halliburton, he's be earning well over 1 million NOK per year, they should have been able to pay for help if the wife needed it. The parents screwed up, they didn't provide for the children in a manor acceptable to the Norwegian authourities and now they have to pay for that mistake.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: cmf
Posted 2012-02-09 04:43:45 and read 1989 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 17):
Again, I am not saying the parents in this case are beyond reproach, but I cannot help but feel that there could have been a happier ending if Asturias's account is anywhere close to the truth.

Do we have anything to suggest Norwegian authorities didn't try everything else before taking away the children?

Again, I have no direct knowledge about this case, only how it (supposedly) works in other Nordic countries.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-02-09 05:25:38 and read 1983 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 19):
Do we have anything to suggest Norwegian authorities didn't try everything else before taking away the children?

According to the Nytid article linked in the op the auithourities had visited many times over some months.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-02-09 05:27:01 and read 1981 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
one of my mother-in-laws neighbours is perminantly banned from driving

For driving 10kph over the speed limit? I freely admit I cannot read Norwegian/norsk, but if the account published on the Hindu was not a deliberate distortion of the facts, then I can only conclude what the Norwegian court did was akin to banning someone from driving for 15 years because they drove at 110kph while the speed limit was 100.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
they should have been able to pay for help if the wife needed it.

It is not about whether they can pay for medical care, which should not be a problem in a country like Norway or Australia for that matter. It is about realising/admitting that they have a problem, and there are powerful factors that makes such admission highly undesirable. Look at any list of famous people committing suicide after being depressed for a long time, they "should have been able to pay for help" too, so what happened?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
The parents screwed up, they didn't provide for the children in a manor acceptable to the Norwegian authourities

Aside from the mother hitting the child while suffering from perinatal depression (and ceased doing so after being informed it was illegal), absence of none of the required "manners" posed immediate danger to the children. Much of the cases against the parents seemed to be subjective, with even the way the mother breastfed the baby cited as "infant interaction". While some concerns are legitimate, none really came anywhere close to justify the action taken. Imagine 18 years later someone asking the kids "so why did you become separated from your parents while you were two?", the answer would be "because they did not get me age-specific toys" or "the house we were in was too small so we did not have enough room to play" or "my mother had perinatal depression for about half a year, as a consequence we only saw her a few hours each year for 18 years". Does it even make sense? One cannot simply assume whatever the "authority" did was correct, a faithfully interpretation of the relevant laws and adequate enforcement of such laws.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-02-09 05:44:19 and read 1979 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 19):
Do we have anything to suggest Norwegian authorities didn't try everything else before taking away the children?

Neither do we have any evidence of the authority trying anything to help, in addition to what I think was flawed reasons to adopt the actions taken in any case.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):
According to the Nytid article linked in the op the auithourities had visited many times over some months.

Again, the "authority" could have visited 100 times, but if they did not actually address the problems (some of which are either none of their business (how mother holds the baby), not easily solved (not enough rooms for the children) or even of their own creation (threatening to remove the children during the first visit thereby causing panic in mother who was also depressed)), they might as well not have visited at all.

[Edited 2012-02-09 05:46:08]

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: cmf
Posted 2012-02-09 06:02:27 and read 1974 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 22):
Neither do we have any evidence of the authority trying anything to help, in addition to what I think was flawed reasons to adopt the actions taken in any case.

We do no not have evidence they did try to help in this case but my experience from my friends and the living in Scandinavia I know the typical process is to provide help and only if it fails or if there is evidence of serious abuse take the children. When not having details of the specific case I think we must assume standard procedure was followed.

The information provided by KiwiRob also support this version.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-02-09 12:24:29 and read 1933 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 21):
For driving 10kph over the speed limit? I freely admit I cannot read Norwegian/norsk, but if the account published on the Hindu was not a deliberate distortion of the facts, then I can only conclude what the Norwegian court did was akin to banning someone from driving for 15 years because they drove at 110kph while the speed limit was 100.

Not just once but many many times, also caught driving without a license and driving drunk, same as this Indian couple they were seen by the authorities many times, they didn't heed the warning so the children were removed, it's that simple, they weren't deemed to be fit parents by Norwegian standards. I can't see why people are arguing against this, the well being of the children is the important factor here.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-02-10 04:59:25 and read 1911 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):
When not having details of the specific case I think we must assume standard procedure was followed.

Even if this is the case, surely an appropriate approach is to place the children under temporary foster care, and notify the parents that getting their children back is conditional upon addressing the issues and sustained improvement in parenting, rather than essentially taking the children away till 18?
I think we can assume standard procedure was designed to protect children's welfare. However, I remain unconvinced that the parents in this case did anything (except hitting the children which has since stopped) that seriously harmed the children. Further, I found it improbable, indeed almost impossible, that there is no procedure of caution/censure/punishment that exists between doing nothing and taking the children for >10 years. Even the county board agreed that the Child protection agency went overboard. Where do we draw the line between "authority" intervention and different style of parenting? Should the authority take away children whose parents feed them junk food despite being informed of the risk on health? What about parents who had to work long hours thereby having insufficient interaction time with the children so their "emotional need is not maintained"?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 24):
also caught driving without a license and driving drunk,

Drink driving may kill the driver and others on the road. The parents in this case did not cause grievous bodily harm (again, except the mother hitting the children, which the child protection agency acknowledged that she stopped once informed of the legal ramification). If someone stole a wallet, they might be expected to be jailed for a short period of time. Is justice served if such action lands the thief in jail for 20 years?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 24):
I can't see why people are arguing against this, the well being of the children is the important factor here

It is because apparently we are to accept that forcefully separate children of young age from their parents for the entirety of their childhood and adolescence is actually more beneficial to their welfare than not having the right toys or a big enough room. Have we learnt nothing from the stolen generation?

[Edited 2012-02-10 05:36:14]

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-02-10 08:38:29 and read 1898 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 25):
If someone stole a wallet, they might be expected to be jailed for a short period of time. Is justice served if such action lands the thief in jail for 20 years?

If the thief is a repeat offender then 20 years in gaol is the correct punishment.

The simple fact is the parents weren't good enough parents by Norwegian standards, they were warned, they didn't shape up and the children were removed for there own good, that's all there is too it.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: cmf
Posted 2012-02-10 09:39:10 and read 1897 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 25):
Where do we draw the line between "authority" intervention and different style of parenting?

Sadly the rule seems to be that if authorities step in before there is a death it is draconian and if if there is a death they are incapable of doing their job. Replace death with whatever version the parents, friends, relatives or opposition politicians feed in to news media.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 25):
Even if this is the case, surely an appropriate approach is to place the children under temporary foster care, and notify the parents that getting their children back is conditional upon addressing the issues and sustained improvement in parenting, rather than essentially taking the children away till 18?

How do you not that surely is an appropriate approach? I expect they consider it. I have no idea why they decided against it. Do you?

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-02-10 18:14:31 and read 1863 times.

I see we are going around in circles. I consider the punishment in this case to be grossly disproportional to the actual faults.I disagree with an in-effect permanent removal of the children in the absence of evidence of gross neglect or abuse. I hope the parents pursue their legal options to the fullest extent. At the same time, they should have learnt a very hard lesson. I have no doubt over the the intention of the Norwegian child protection agency, however they chose an extremely blunt tool. When the Stolen Generation children were taken away from their parents the authority thought they were doing the right thing too.

Quoting cmf (Reply 27):
How do you not that surely is an appropriate approach? I expect they consider it. I have no idea why they decided against it. Do you?

There is no evidence to suggest they considered a more gradual escalation of the punishment. There is evidence based on The Hindu article, that the child protection agency mechanically cited some form of standard without actually doing any investigation, which I am afraid to say fitted exactly with my mother's experience with the equivalent agency in Australia.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: cmf
Posted 2012-02-11 08:15:11 and read 1840 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 28):
There is no evidence to suggest they considered a more gradual escalation of the punishment. There is evidence based on The Hindu article, that the child protection agency mechanically cited some form of standard without actually doing any investigation, which I am afraid to say fitted exactly with my mother's experience with the equivalent agency in Australia.

Punishment? You actually think they did this to punish the parents? For what?

I'm not saying the government did everything right. But between what they say happened and what the parents tell news papers in India and then get reported... I do not give the later much credibility. Sorry, just experience from seeing a lot of "victims." I doubt there is one justified victim for every hundred claiming to be one.

Isn't it interesting that the common theme in Indian media is the hand feeding and sleeping in the same bed. While Norway state that had nothing to do with it.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-02-13 02:43:29 and read 1757 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 29):
Punishment? You actually think they did this to punish the parents? For what?

Let me rephrase, there is no evidence that they considered a more gradual escalation in the way they approached this case. Punishment is clearly not the aim, which makes the handling of the case more perplexing because one cannot find a single ongoing issue that could harm the children to the extent that removing them from their parents could. If someone has a psoriatic patch on their hand, you don't chop the hand off no matter how wonderful your intent might be.

Quoting cmf (Reply 29):
But between what they say happened and what the parents tell news papers in India and then get reported... I do not give the later much credibility. Sorry, just experience from seeing a lot of "victims." I doubt there is one justified victim for every hundred claiming to be one.

Unless the parents/the Hindu fabricated the ruling by the county board, you will find that some level of Norwegian authority disagreed with the handling of the situation. I would not call the parents victims, but I also find it extremely hard to justify what the child protection agency did.

Quoting cmf (Reply 29):
Isn't it interesting that the common theme in Indian media is the hand feeding and sleeping in the same bed. While Norway state that had nothing to do with it.

Then what is about? Sure, there is the confidentiality issue and the full story may not be told. However, I think we can safely rule out any evidence of ongoing gross neglect or abuse, because should it exist the county board would never have ruled in favour of the parents. The county board further found that the child protection service reported deficiencies without actually checking their relevance to this case. The psychological/psychiatric harm to the children from removing them on a nearly permanent basis from their parents cannot be justified because the parents were a bit boneheaded and did not manage to tick all the boxes in a check list in several instances. Again I put the question to you: When do we draw the line when the state decide to take way the right of the individual to be parents? Should kids who are overweight because their parents feed them crap and did not push them to do exercise be sent to foster homes? What about parents who force children to practise violin/piano against their will?

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: cmf
Posted 2012-02-13 07:51:28 and read 1732 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 30):
there is no evidence that they considered a more gradual escalation in the way they approached this case.

The first visit was Jan 7 and the last May 11 with visits in between. Have no idea if there was a formal escalation but it seems clear they were given multiple chances.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 30):
Unless the parents/the Hindu fabricated the ruling by the county board, you will find that some level of Norwegian authority disagreed with the handling of the situation.

Would be great if we had the reasons given. Per a Norwegian article it was the failure to consider the positive effects the pending visit by the mothers parents might have. I think there is a lot of data missing.

We do know that at the next level it was reversed.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 30):
Then what is about? Sure, there is the confidentiality issue and the full story may not be told. However, I think we can safely rule out any evidence of ongoing gross neglect or abuse, because should it exist the county board would never have ruled in favour of the parents

Per a press release the parents have an official English translation of the verdict. A lot of questions would probably be resolved if they released it. From what I understand Norwegian authorities are not allowed to release it.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 30):
justified because the parents were a bit boneheaded and did not manage to tick all the boxes in a check list in several instances.

I sincerely doubt that is the extent of the problem. If it is I'd agree but this is the first time I have seen this suggested.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 30):
When do we draw the line when the state decide to take way the right of the individual to be parents? Should kids who are overweight because their parents feed them crap and did not push them to do exercise be sent to foster homes? What about parents who force children to practise violin/piano against their will?

I'm very happy I'm not the one deciding that because it truly is a difficult decision. As to the examples you gave. It would take some pretty bizarre circumstances to make those valid reasons.

Do you actually think those are fair descriptions of the type of issues causing the kids to be taken away? I don't. But if they are, then I'm completely on the parents side.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Aesma
Posted 2012-02-13 15:57:00 and read 1703 times.

I must have skipped the part where the children were permanently removed. I kind of doubt that's even possible, unless maybe for people facing decades of jail (which isn't common in Norway anyway). There surely are means for the parents to appeal the decision, show a real commitment to change their ways, etc.

Here in France I know a family that has two foster children, siblings, their mother has died and their father is not able to care for them, but they're still legally his and if he improved and the children were OK with it, they could form a family again.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-02-13 17:49:27 and read 1689 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 31):
Have no idea if there was a formal escalation but it seems clear they were given multiple chances.

That was why I said the parents were boneheaded. It seemed that they did not take the Norwegian Child Welfare agency very seriously. The result was of course they got hit by the proverbial train.

Quoting cmf (Reply 31):
I think there is a lot of data missing.

I don't doubt that. However, the English version translated from Nytid, mentioned that the authority's major concern was how the mother was unable to maintain emotional need of the children and the example given was how she held the baby.

Quoting cmf (Reply 31):
Per a press release the parents have an official English translation of the verdict. A lot of questions would probably be resolved if they released it. From what I understand Norwegian authorities are not allowed to release it.

I agree 100%.

Quoting cmf (Reply 31):
I sincerely doubt that is the extent of the problem. If it is I'd agree but this is the first time I have seen this suggested.

I meant "checklist" to be a figure of speech rather than literally. The way I see it, the agency came, identified some problems, some valid, some less so. The parents for some reason did not rectify the problems in several months. Again, I doubt very strongly that there was any clear red flags in this case.

Quoting cmf (Reply 31):
Do you actually think those are fair descriptions of the type of issues causing the kids to be taken away?

I do. I expect there were three catogories of issues. One, deficiencies in parenting, but not serious enough that clear danger was present or harm was imminent. Two, different styles of parenting, seemingly outrageous or terrible in Norway but safely practised elsewhere for hundreds of years. Three, "issues" that were either irrelevant but the agency did not bother to further investigate or caused by the agency's handling of the situation, as pointed out by the county board.

Quoting cmf (Reply 31):
I don't. But if they are, then I'm completely on the parents side.

Good to know. I am not Indian myself but as an immigrant I have been through too many situations where the initial response was that of horror, but in time people realised that it was no big deal. Of course, if evidence of clear abuse or ongoing gross negligence is presented, then I would complement the Norwegian authority for doing its job well.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 32):
I must have skipped the part where the children were permanently removed. I kind of doubt that's even possible,

As per the Hindu article which was a translation, the parents are allowed only 3x1hour visits per year until the children turn 18, which is 14 years from now.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 32):
Here in France I know a family that has two foster children, siblings, their mother has died and their father is not able to care for them, but they're still legally his and if he improved and the children were OK with it, they could form a family again.

This would be much more logical that what was ordered in this case.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: cmf
Posted 2012-02-14 02:51:16 and read 1654 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 33):
The way I see it, the agency came, identified some problems, some valid, some less so. The parents for some reason did not rectify the problems in several months. Again, I doubt very strongly that there was any clear red flags in this case.

May be considered nitpick but I think it is an important difference. I'm confident all problems were valid, some were serious, most probably not.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 33):
One, deficiencies in parenting, but not serious enough that clear danger was present or harm was imminent. Two, different styles of parenting, seemingly outrageous or terrible in Norway but safely practised elsewhere for hundreds of years. Three, "issues" that were either irrelevant but the agency did not bother to further investigate or caused by the agency's handling of the situation, as pointed out by the county board.

Obviously nothing was imminent, if it was they would not have been given 4 months. But that doesn't mean they were not serious enough. Especially when they don't get fixed.

I am fortunate enough to understand Norwegian. I've read the Ny Tid article and from it I understand the Fylkesnemnd's decision was mainly based on the mother parents being about to arrive and the hope it would remedy the situation.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 33):
I am not Indian myself but as an immigrant I have been through too many situations where the initial response was that of horror, but in time people realised that it was no big deal. Of course, if evidence of clear abuse or ongoing gross negligence is presented, then I would complement the Norwegian authority for doing its job well.

Nor am I Indian, but just as you I am an immigrant, multiple countries on multiple continents. Of course there are a lot of differences between how things are done. Very often there are good reasons for why things are done differently. Many others are just preferences or habits. As an immigrant it is important to understand which it is. Celebrating Christmas on Christmas Eve instead of Christmas day isn't even noteworthy in US. Walking down a street with a gun in London is. If you have local authorities visiting you and telling you what isn't acceptable then you better understand it isn't. If you do things that would have the kids taken away from Norwegian children you can't expect to get a free pass just because you're an immigrant. Much less so when you get multiple chances to get it right.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 33):
As per the Hindu article which was a translation, the parents are allowed only 3x1hour visits per year until the children turn 18, which is 14 years from now.

I find this really horrible. It probably would be better with nothing than 3 x 1 hour per year. This way the kids will get very confused why they have to meet strangers claiming to be their parents. If they have visitation rights it should be a lot more so there can be meaningful interaction. It can always be supervised to make sure nothing serious happens.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: MillwallSean
Posted 2012-02-14 05:25:09 and read 1645 times.

Bone headed parents?
No, the mother beat an infant...
Its not about warnings or help if you beat an infant, there are no excuses to that.

The authorities noticed several cases of abuse not just on the infant but also the toddler that has learning disabilities from suspected abuse.
This isn't small.

Sorry but when you crossed that line on a few occasions the authorities must act.
The parents aren't fit to look after their children under Norwegian law.
If the Indian couple don't understand that well sorry then they perhaps shouldn't live abroad. This is not up for debate or to be reasoned about. They get warned, then they listen. If not the face the consequences.

For those that haven't been in Scandinavia or lack knowledge about the Scandinavian welfare states. It might be useful to point out that children are only placed into foster care as a last resort. That happens when there are severe cases of abuse and clear indications of an unstable home environment. That was found here.
This family cant look after their children satisfactory under Norwegian law.

I hope they prosecute the mother for hitting the infant. No infant should ever be hit or be seen with marks and bruises on several occasions. If convicted that also sorts out any future immigration issue. A conviction for child abuse ensures there wont be visas for western countries...

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-02-14 05:33:16 and read 1642 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):
I find this really horrible. It probably would be better with nothing than 3 x 1 hour per year. This way the kids will get very confused why they have to meet strangers claiming to be their parents. If they have visitation rights it should be a lot more so there can be meaningful interaction. It can always be supervised to make sure nothing serious happens.

This is only when the children are in foster care, should the children be adopted all visiting rights for the birth parents are cancelled; when the child turns 18 they can seek out their birth parents if they chose to do so.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-02-15 13:07:38 and read 1571 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):
May be considered nitpick but I think it is an important difference. I'm confident all problems were valid, some were serious, most probably not.

TBF I don't consider it valid for the authority to tell the parents how they should hold their children or how large a house they must live in. However, I accept we will have no way to ascertain unless the case against the parents is made public.

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):
I've read the Ny Tid article and from it I understand the Fylkesnemnd's decision was mainly based on the mother parents being about to arrive and the hope it would remedy the situation.

The English version on the Hindu conveys a very different message. According to it, the county board judged:
"The problems occurred after representatives from the Child Welfare Services arrived in the home"
"the problems of this situation should have been solved in a different and more thought-out way, as opposed to deciding to send the children to an emergency shelter.
I'd be grateful if you can confirm if something like these was mentioned in the Norwegian report.

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):
If you have local authorities visiting you and telling you what isn't acceptable then you better understand it isn't. If you do things that would have the kids taken away from Norwegian children you can't expect to get a free pass just because you're an immigrant. Much less so when you get multiple chances to get it right.

Agree to an extent. The parents were stupid not to comply. This however does not necessarily mean the action taken by the child welfare agent is justifiable.

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):
his way the kids will get very confused why they have to meet strangers claiming to be their parents.

The older children were 4 and 2. More than old enough to know who their parents are. I doubt they will regard their parents as strangers.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 35):
No, the mother beat an infant...
Its not about warnings or help if you beat an infant, there are no excuses to that.

Hitting the children was wrong. However,
1. The mother was suffering from perinatal depression, I doubt this would be admissible in a court of law.
2. The Norwegian child welfare agency acknowledged that after being told to stop (which one would have to assume happened early on in this case) the mother complied. Therefore this was not an ongoing issue and was not the major concern in this case as per the Hindu article.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: L410Turbolet
Posted 2012-02-15 14:18:56 and read 1557 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 33):
Two, different styles of parenting, seemingly outrageous or terrible in Norway but safely practised elsewhere for hundreds of years.

Irrelevant. They were living in Norway, remember? What happened to the good 'ol "When in Rome... "?
BTW, female circumcision or so called honor killings have been safely practised "different styles of parenting" in other parts of the world for centuries, which still does not make them right.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: MillwallSean
Posted 2012-02-15 17:14:01 and read 1534 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 37):

Hitting the children was wrong. However,
1. The mother was suffering from perinatal depression, I doubt this would be admissible in a court of law.
2. The Norwegian child welfare agency acknowledged that after being told to stop (which one would have to assume happened early on in this case) the mother complied. Therefore this was not an ongoing issue and was not the major concern in this case as per the Hindu article.

The older child has learning difficulties thats believed to come from abuse.
The young has shown signs of being abused on a continuous basis.
The mother suffers from post natal depression.
The mother has admitted to hitting the child.
The kids dont have winterclothes in a city where there are minus degrees on a continous basis during winter.
The family was in continuous contact with the authorites and many home vists to their house took place. No improvements were seen.

If the Norwegian childcare unit didnt remove the children they would break Norwegian legislation. Just because its an indian couple the authorities cant bypass the legislation. Kids being abused where there is a risk of continued abuse shoudl be removed from the parents in question. Thats the law in Norway.
Its not debatable or a document forming the bais for a roundtable discussion.

The issue that we can debate is if it was nessescary to place the children in permanent fostercare.
Permanent means the children are taken away for good because the authorities judge that thse parents will never be fit enough to look after theior children. This only happens in very severe cases.
I am not so sure thats the best outcome for the children. the grandparents seemed willing to assist in this case and had a fair bit of money. However the grandparents either didnt understand Norweigian legislation or had bad advise when they thought they could move in with the abusing mother and from there help the family. That would have been against the law and wasnt possible.
Grandparents staying in another house, with supervised visits by the parents, would have been the way to go about this.

1. Hmm disagree on that.
2. No, the Norweigian welfare agency states that there were many signs of physical abuse on both children up until they took the children away.

If you want to understand this The Hindu probably isnt the right place to look for facts. they were primarily interested in the fact that the children were given a western diet, ie beef, and were not put in an Indian fosterfamily.
How they would expect someone in Norway not to be put in a Norwegian family is beyond me. The country is Norway after all and not India.

If my children were taken away from me because of abuse, I sure wouldnt expect them to be put in a NZ family when I have choosen to live and work in Brunei. And in a Brunei family they would not be given pork, celebrate easter and christmas etc despite it being my tradition.

Deep down its simple, the migrated to Norway, one of the worlds least corrupt countries with one of the worlds highest living standards. All they needed to do was follow all the legislation there they couldnt thats why they are in trouble.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: cmf
Posted 2012-02-15 18:08:05 and read 1533 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 37):
TBF I don't consider it valid for the authority to tell the parents how they should hold their children or how large a house they must live in.

Disagree as to holding. You better be sure to support the head. As to the size of the house. It would take a very small home for that to be valid and from the pictures that isn't the case.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 37):
The English version on the Hindu conveys a very different message. According to it, the county board judged:
"The problems occurred after representatives from the Child Welfare Services arrived in the home"
"the problems of this situation should have been solved in a different and more thought-out way, as opposed to deciding to send the children to an emergency shelter.
I'd be grateful if you can confirm if something like these was mentioned in the Norwegian report.

It is there followed by:
The tribunal concludes legal conditions for emergency situation were not present at time of decision. Nor do they exist to support the decision at this time... In near term there are reasons to believe conditions in the home will change since the mothers parents are traveling to Norway to help their daughter. Decision to place [the kids] outside the home is revoked.

Earlier in the article it was also mentioned that child welfare was called by kindergarten employees. While not stating so I think it is fair to assume the first kid spent some time there.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 37):
This however does not necessarily mean the action taken by the child welfare agent is justifiable.

Nor that they were not...

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 37):
The older children were 4 and 2. More than old enough to know who their parents are. I doubt they will regard their parents as strangers.

At the time (May 2011) they were 2 years and 5 months. The girl was born Dec. 6, 2010 so she is 14 months now. I have not seen the sons birthday but they state he is 3 now.

The girl obviously has no recollection. It is questionable how much the son does but 3 one hour visits will not maintain/reestablish what bond existed.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-02-15 23:26:34 and read 1526 times.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 39):
and were not put in an Indian fosterfamily.

Could have been worse, there aren't many Indians in Norway but ther are hundreds of thousand's of Pakistanis.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-02-17 13:41:06 and read 1442 times.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 38):
BTW, female circumcision or so called honor killings have been safely practised

I take your point but the examples given are inappropriate. How is killing safe???

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
It would take a very small home for that to be valid and from the pictures that isn't the case.

Exactly my point.

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
It is there followed by:

Thank you. Again, I doubt the county board would wrote what was written if the parents committed crimes so bad that their children needed to be taken away permanently regardless of whether grandparents were coming or not.

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
It is questionable how much the son does but 3 one hour visits will not maintain/reestablish what bond existed.

Oh it certainly won't but it will not be easy for the children to accept they have "new parents". Clearly the authority meant well, but I am not sure whether the children will be grateful for this change when they grew up if the experience of indigenous Australian people is of any guide.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 39):
No improvements were seen.

Not every issue was improved upon is perhaps a better description. The mother stopped hitting the children for one.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 39):
Kids being abused where there is a risk of continued abuse shoudl be removed from the parents in question.

Again, the Norwegian children welfare agency acknowledged that there was no continued abuse as the mother stopped doing so.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 39):
1. Hmm disagree on that.

Perinatal depression is a well-known psychiatric illness.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 39):
2. No, the Norweigian welfare agency states that there were many signs of physical abuse on both children up until they took the children away.

"The mother had admitted to slapping the son at one point, but the Child Welfare Service noted that this was something she had never done again after she became aware that it was illegal under Norwegian law."

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 39):
If you want to understand this The Hindu probably isnt the right place to look for facts. they were primarily interested in the fact that the children were given a western diet, ie beef, and were not put in an Indian fosterfamily.

??? There is no mention at all of the points you raised in the article.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article2829408.ece

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: cmf
Posted 2012-02-17 17:54:34 and read 1424 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 42):
I doubt the county board would wrote what was written if the parents committed crimes so bad that their children needed to be taken away permanently regardless of whether grandparents were coming or not.

Let's not forget that the tingrett went along with children welfare. And with them taking more time to reach their conclusion it is reasonable to assume they are the one who got it right.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 42):
Oh it certainly won't but it will not be easy for the children to accept they have "new parents". Clearly the authority meant well, but I am not sure whether the children will be grateful for this change when they grew up if the experience of indigenous Australian people is of any guide.

For the daughter who was 5 months at the time I doubt it is an issue. The son was young enough that I doubt it took much time.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 42):
Again, the Norwegian children welfare agency acknowledged that there was no continued abuse as the mother stopped doing so.

From what I've read they confirmed they had not been hit again. That does not necessarily mean there hasn't been abuse. We just don't know from what has been made public.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: L410Turbolet
Posted 2012-02-18 01:24:31 and read 1407 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 42):
I take your point but the examples given are inappropriate. How is killing safe???

"Safely practiced" since they are an acceptable cultural norm.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-02-18 16:41:37 and read 1356 times.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 39):
Deep down its simple, the migrated to Norway, one of the worlds least corrupt countries with one of the worlds highest living standards. All they needed to do was follow all the legislation there they couldnt thats why they are in trouble.

Again, this case has nothing to do with corruption. A government worker who is not corrupt is fully capable of making the wrong decision (not saying it is necessarily the case here).
That parents in case did something wrong is clear, the point is if the they deserve what they got given what they did wrong and if there is a better way to deal with this.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 39):
The kids dont have winterclothes in a city where there are minus degrees on a continous basis during winter.

The boy did not have suitably sized clothes. Big difference from kids (plural) having no clothes.

Quoting cmf (Reply 43):

Let's not forget that the tingrett went along with children welfare. And with them taking more time to reach their conclusion it is reasonable to assume they are the one who got it right.

A ruling is only right until the higher court overrules it. Let's see if further appeal is successful. I must say I find it very strange that the county board and the court can have such polarising opinion over the same case.

Quoting cmf (Reply 43):
We just don't know from what has been made public.

I think we can agree on that

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 44):

"Safely practiced" since they are an acceptable cultural norm.

I wrote "safely practiced", I did not write "acceptable cultural norm". Again I fail to understand how you can think killing and mutilation with the potential of causing permanent harm are safe. If you want to dispute my point, kindly read what I said first.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: BarfBag
Posted 2012-02-23 00:13:14 and read 1173 times.

Very interesting article on the topic by a Norwegian in an Indian newspaper:
The iron hand that rocks the cradle

Quote:
CPS lives by depriving children of their parents. It is an industry, which pays incredible amounts, especially to psychologists, for “reports” and to foster “parents” (they advertise for people to be foster parents and announce a yearly pay of, say, NOK 430.000 (€ 30.000) plus paid holidays and regular “time off” from the foster children plus allowances for building their house or buying an extra car plus pension entitlement. The business also, of course, provides extra income and extra jobs for social workers.

Frequently, the social workers themselves will take as their own foster children some of the children they remove from parents. Tens of thousands of teachers, kindergarten personnel, health workers, etc., report their “worry” over this and that child to the CPS. The court procedures are those of kangaroo courts. No matter how well those of us who fight against this are able to document the disastrous effects on the lives of both parents and the children, all the changes in legislation and procedures keep going in the wrong direction: The children are the property of the state and every parent who questions anything is accused of being an ill-doer and a danger to his/her children.

“What is this confidentiality about?” another commenter asks. Answer: The Norwegian state is trying to blackmail everyone to shut up about Norwegian child “protection” atrocities as a condition of letting the Indian children out of their clutches. That way Norway can: a) have the case die down by letting the children return to India, b) prevent outspoken comments abroad and avoid several of these countries perhaps joining forces, c) still continue to protect its social “services” — an industry feeding tens of thousands of people doing unproductive “work”, and d) avoid having to face heaps of other cases quite similar to the Stavanger/Kolkata one, some involving Norwegian families, some foreign families.

India isn't doing enough by simply refusing to accept as valid the accusations made against the family by the Norwegian authorities. At this point it has become an ugly game from which the Norwegians are unwilling to back down; immediate resolution of the matter would be far better served by India arresting one or more Norwegians because they didn't strictly adhere to local norms, with their release being made contingent on the Norwegians a quick and smooth resolution of this ugly episode.

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Aesma
Posted 2012-02-23 01:35:27 and read 1158 times.

Maybe an immediate resolution, but also a diplomatic disaster !

Topic: RE: Indian Toddlers Under Child Protection In Norway
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-02-23 03:27:24 and read 1152 times.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 46):
Very interesting article on the topic by a Norwegian in an Indian newspaper:

Frankly, this article struck me as a little biased. It reads like the author has an axe to grind with the system. I found it difficult to believe that the system in Norway could be so rotten.
On the other hand, if there is any truth in the article, it serves as a good reminder that the "authority" in any country has the capacity to get things wrong and should not be relied upon absolutely as a source of justice, and perhaps more importantly, common sense.


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