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Topic: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-06-15 12:59:39 and read 3621 times.

According to this man it is;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEwXa197uBU

I know last week's special recall election in Wisconsin gained lots of attention.
Governor Scott Walker received a lot of flack for trying to save the state few dollars and re-negotiate their health-care contracts.
What does this all mean in the end?
Will the man in the video have to pay an extra $10 as a co-pay to have his teeth cleaned?
Was it the end of democracy or democracy in action?

If this is a sign of things to come, I'd really hate to be in Grant Park of Chicago come November...

[Edited 2012-06-15 13:01:08]

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: einsteinboricua
Posted 2012-06-15 13:17:38 and read 3577 times.

Democracy died the day politicians started selling out to corporations and work to protect their interests as opposed to those of the people who elected them.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-06-15 13:18:31 and read 3572 times.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
Democracy died the day politicians started selling out to corporations and work to protect their interests as opposed to those of the people who elected them.

That dates back to 1776.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-06-15 13:19:22 and read 3572 times.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
Democracy died the day politicians started selling out to corporations and work to protect their interests as opposed to those of the people who elected them.

The biggest blow to Democracy was Citizens United. Until that is gone, this is a corporate autocracy.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: connies4ever
Posted 2012-06-15 13:32:50 and read 3529 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
Democracy died the day politicians started selling out to corporations and work to protect their interests as opposed to those of the people who elected them.

The biggest blow to Democracy was Citizens United. Until that is gone, this is a corporate autocracy.

Which is the backstory on the new Showcase series "Continuum". In 2077 the USA has a "corporate democracy" in which rights currently guaranteed in your constitution have been suspended, and a total police state imposed. A group of "terrorists" are caught and sentenced to death, but one guy (obviously very clever !) develops a one-way time travel device in prison (or maybe he had it anyway, that's not clear). The device creates a vortex and sends the terrorists and a policewoman back to 2012 (in Vancouver, Canada, where the show is filmed).

As the policewoman gets more familiar with the terrorist as she tracks them, it becomes clear the agenda of the terrorists is to restore representative democracy.

The show has some promise, it's on Sunday evenings here in Canada.

But overall I tend to agree that Big Business is pretty much getting everything it wants and devil take the hindmost for the rest of us. It's true up here as well, particularly since the arrival of our Conservative government. More laws passed to effect criminal punishment for various things, more prisons being built -- despite the fact that crime has been dropping for a generation, more documents and government processes made "Secret", so transparency is lost, anti state health care, which works overall pretty well up here, anti science, yadda yadda. Christ, even the census is voluntary now, so what good is it ?

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: tugger
Posted 2012-06-15 13:37:42 and read 3517 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
Citizens United.

Yeah, I still not understand how, in any way, a tax ID number implies that something is a "person" with all the protections that go with that designation. It's crazy, it is very bad for the nation.

Tugg

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-06-15 13:39:35 and read 3509 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 5):
Yeah, I still not understand how, in any way, a tax ID number implies that something is a "person" with all the protections that go with that designation.

Frankly, I suspect that someone bribed the justices. Now it will take a Constitutional amendment and that will take something resembling an armed revolution.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-06-15 13:41:11 and read 3501 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
That dates back to 1776.

  

Democracy died when the greeks decided to raid buildings and assume mob mentality.

Same with the Wisconsin unions.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: connies4ever
Posted 2012-06-15 13:43:35 and read 3497 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 5):
Yeah, I still not understand how, in any way, a tax ID number implies that something is a "person" with all the protections that go with that designation. It's crazy, it is very bad for the nation.

But a corporation is a person, legally. It has rights, protections, and obligations, although I grant you that the obligations are being whittled away.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
Frankly, I suspect that someone bribed the justices. Now it will take a Constitutional amendment and that will take something resembling an armed revolution.

Why an amendment ? I thought CU was merely an act of Congress. Surely they can simply repeal the law ?

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: Newark727
Posted 2012-06-15 13:44:20 and read 3495 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 5):
Yeah, I still not understand how, in any way, a tax ID number implies that something is a "person" with all the protections that go with that designation.

It's an interpretation the Supreme Court made of the Fourteenth Amendment. From ~1880....

The more things change the more they remain the same, I guess. Of course, they didn't have television, political consultants, bogus telephone polls, or "super PACs" back then. Also the deranged billionaires bought concert halls instead of election campaigns. Possibly

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: Newark727
Posted 2012-06-15 13:46:20 and read 3485 times.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 8):

Why an amendment ? I thought CU was merely an act of Congress. Surely they can simply repeal the law ?

It was a Supreme Court decision, challenging an act of Congress. They would need to write a new law that adheres to the SCOTUS' interpretation of "free speech." Which is about as likely as me winning the 24 Hours of Le Mans tomorrow, all by myself, with a rental car.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: tugger
Posted 2012-06-15 13:57:05 and read 3462 times.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 8):
But a corporation is a person, legally. It has rights, protections, and obligations, although I grant you that the obligations are being whittled away.

Can a corporation vote? (And I am not talking about what they currently buy in Congress.) Can I own a piece of a person? How come there are people that are also corporations?

Simply put, a corporation is NOT a person as in a human individual, you know, a real person.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 9):
It's an interpretation the Supreme Court made of the Fourteenth Amendment. From ~1880....

Yes, and that still does not make it a good interpretation.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 9):
The more things change the more they remain the same, I guess. Of course, they didn't have television, political consultants, bogus telephone polls, or "super PACs" back then. Also the deranged billionaires bought concert halls instead of election campaigns. Possibly

No, things were pretty much the same back then too.

Tugg

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: PSA53
Posted 2012-06-15 13:58:19 and read 3457 times.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
Democracy died the day politicians started selling out to corporations and work to protect their interests as opposed to those of the people who elected them.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
The biggest blow to Democracy was Citizens United. Until that is gone, this is a corporate autocracy.

I have to partially disagree with both of you on that one.While corporations can have they're share of the blame game I also will blame lawyers representing every sector of life from political,social,etc,etc.... Every level of courts,the lawyers and the SCOTUS is the "real" new power to me from tying up laws for years to outrages class action awards in which corporations move out and cost workers lower wages or jobs.

Greedy lawyers and the courts have changed everything and are the culprit to me.It was once asked on a tread if you we're a dictator of the US what you would change?I would reform the court awards only up to1 million non-death and 3 million death.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: Newark727
Posted 2012-06-15 14:01:07 and read 3444 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 11):
Yes, and that still does not make it a good interpretation.

Not saying it's good. In fact the era in which the decision was made is in itself a reason not to trust it- the Supreme Court back then was as pro-corporate as... well, as it is right now.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-06-15 14:05:46 and read 3429 times.

Enough of the bickering folks.
My question is what will this matter to the man in the video?
Will he lose his right to vote or will he just have to pay an extra $5 co-pay for a physical or to get his teeth cleaned?

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: PSA53
Posted 2012-06-15 14:18:04 and read 3394 times.

Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
democracy in action



   People voted.Majority spoke.The man is an alarmist over reactionary crybaby.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-06-15 14:19:09 and read 3394 times.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-06-15 14:35:03 and read 3351 times.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 8):
But a corporation is a person, legally. It has rights, protections, and obligations, although I grant you that the obligations are being whittled away.

No, it is an organization. It has limited "rights." It cannot be executed, put in jail, held accountable for criminal acts, get married.

People cannot merge, be dissolved, be spontaneously created out of nothing, have their personal liability limited, etc.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 15):
People voted.Majority spoke.The man is an alarmist over reactionary crybaby.

Now on that I agree. The only issue is that Walker got most of his funding from out-of-state from wealthy donors. We need to get private money out of campaigns permanently. All campaigns need to be publicly funded on a fixed budget.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: dfwrevolution
Posted 2012-06-15 15:04:39 and read 3299 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
No, it is an organization. It has limited "rights."

And one of those rights is freedom of political speech. That is a perfectly logical interpretation of the First Amendment, which prohibits Congress from interfering with the right of citizens to assemble and petition the government. Constitutional rights should not be fortified if the method of assembly happens to be a corporation or union.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
Until that is gone, this is a corporate autocracy.

Oh bull. Liberals prove daily that they are cynical warts who have no faith in the independence of their fellow citizens, hence the need for government to micromanage all aspects of life including campaign finance.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
We need to get private money out of campaigns permanently. All campaigns need to be publicly funded on a fixed budget.

In other words, the government will have strict control for who and how people run for office. That's some democracy. What could possibly go wrong?  

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-06-15 15:10:25 and read 3288 times.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 18):
In other words, the government will have strict control for who and how people run for office. That's some democracy. What could possibly go wrong?

That's how it is done in a lot of countries. When only the wealthy control the outcome of elections, that is not democracy.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 18):
And one of those rights is freedom of political speech.

Speech and money are two very different things.

You will sing a very different song when the telecoms pass a law mandating every American to own a cell phone. Don't think it can't happen.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: connies4ever
Posted 2012-06-15 15:13:34 and read 3286 times.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 10):
It was a Supreme Court decision, challenging an act of Congress. They would need to write a new law that adheres to the SCOTUS' interpretation of "free speech." Which is about as likely as me winning the 24 Hours of Le Mans tomorrow, all by myself, with a rental car.

OK, thanks for the clarification. Could a future SCOTUS overturn this decision ?

Quoting tugger (Reply 11):
Can a corporation vote? (And I am not talking about what they currently buy in Congress.) Can I own a piece of a person? How come there are people that are also corporations?

Simply put, a corporation is NOT a person as in a human individual, you know, a real person.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
No, it is an organization. It has limited "rights." It cannot be executed, put in jail, held accountable for criminal acts, get married.

People cannot merge, be dissolved, be spontaneously created out of nothing, have their personal liability limited, etc.

Everybody take a valium. Corporations are required to pay taxes (unless they have a shitload of really good lawyers), have rights and protections, can be libelled or defames (and can respond to that in court), can own real property, yadda yadda.

Of course a person can't be divided or merged (absenting marriage and divorce, I suppose), but in many respects a corporation is treated legally the same way as a person is. And so it says in my 1st year law text.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: tugger
Posted 2012-06-15 15:27:17 and read 3257 times.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 18):
Oh bull. Liberals prove daily that they are cynical warts who have no faith in the independence of their fellow citizens,

Yeah, that is bull. Anytime anyone reduces something down so far and applies to an entire group that has no true definitive definition, it is bull. You must be a Liberal.... why else you you make the statement of a "cynical wart"?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Speech and money are two very different things.

  

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 20):
Corporations are required to pay taxes (unless they have a shitload of really good lawyers), have rights and protections, can be libelled or defames (and can respond to that in court), can own real property, yadda yadda.

Of course a person can't be divided or merged (absenting marriage and divorce, I suppose), but in many respects a corporation is treated legally the same way as a person is. And so it says in my 1st year law text.

Corporations cannot vote and their speech regarding/affecting votes should be severely curtailed. If they need "speech" then there are millions of people that work for corporations that will be happy to speak for them as their interests intersect. The corporations would lose no real rights to speech. Funny how that works, people may actually be able to speak....

Tugg

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: connies4ever
Posted 2012-06-15 15:45:49 and read 3229 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 21):
Corporations cannot vote and their speech regarding/affecting votes should be severely curtailed

I believe a recent SCOTUS ruling actually amplified corporations right to speak. Might not be desirable, but I think that's the reality.

Quoting tugger (Reply 21):
If they need "speech" then there are millions of people that work for corporations that will be happy to speak for them as their interests intersect. The corporations would lose no real rights to speech. Funny how that works, people may actually be able to speak....

It's called advertising. Various corporate associations are even now trying to mold your opinion regarding the upcoming election. Same here. Again, might not be the right way to go, but that's the reality.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-06-15 15:46:41 and read 3226 times.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 20):
Of course a person can't be divided or merged (absenting marriage and divorce, I suppose), but in many respects a corporation is treated legally the same way as a person is. And so it says in my 1st year law text.

Which does not make them persons. It gives them a limited set of rights. Do they get a vote? Can they be imprisoned for crimes? No. so they are not people.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: EricR
Posted 2012-06-15 16:14:49 and read 3198 times.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
Democracy died the day politicians started selling out to corporations and work to protect their interests as opposed to those of the people who elected them.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
Until that is gone, this is a corporate autocracy.



I was just thinking about this the other day. Fast forward 10 years from now, and corporations could up end with much more influence than they even have today. With the vast amounts of government debt and bureaucratic gridlock, the government will have to increasingly move more control over to public corporations. The space program is one recent example. The government can no longer fund it and our hopes for space exploration now rest more on corporations.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
My question is what will this matter to the man in the video?
Will he lose his right to vote or will he just have to pay an extra $5 co-pay for a physical or to get his teeth cleaned?


Sounds like he is over dramatizing the situation. Too many union employees believe the gloom and doom scenario portrayed by unions. They try to paint a picture of life without union representation as armageddon.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: connies4ever
Posted 2012-06-15 16:24:51 and read 3225 times.

My last comment on this topic:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
Do they get a vote?

You can be sure they would like one. And some corporations probably have or are examining that idea.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
an they be imprisoned for crimes? No.

Corporations can be and are heavily fined for transgressions. Which is often what happens to people. Or in an extreme situation a corporation can be broken up, the corporate equivalent of the death penalty.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: tugger
Posted 2012-06-15 16:42:06 and read 3198 times.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 22):
I believe a recent SCOTUS ruling actually amplified corporations right to speak. Might not be desirable, but I think that's the reality.
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 22):
It's called advertising. Various corporate associations are even now trying to mold your opinion regarding the upcoming election. Same here. Again, might not be the right way to go, but that's the reality.

I do understand but it is not a good situation. The laws governing this needs to be changed however the "person" with the most money and the best "speech" will not allow it to be changed if they can help it.

But I am hopeful (naive I know)...

Tugg

[Edited 2012-06-15 17:16:14]

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: einsteinboricua
Posted 2012-06-15 17:10:06 and read 3204 times.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 20):
Corporations are required to pay taxes (unless they have a shitload of really good lawyers), have rights and protections, can be libelled or defames (and can respond to that in court), can own real property, yadda yadda.

Ah, but some lobby for them to have huge tax breaks. What about Joe Average? Where is his tax break?

BTW, freedom of speech for a corporation...isn't that what press releases are for? You mean to tell me that freedom of speech for a corporation means funding a certain candidate up to the point where he/she obtains the upper hand in campaigns? I don't think so. It's time the "rights" of a corporation be curtailed. If they are treated as a person then by all means they should be help completely accountable when they mess up (BP for instance?)

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: dfwrevolution
Posted 2012-06-15 20:39:32 and read 3099 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
When only the wealthy control the outcome of elections, that is not democracy.

So how did Jerry Brown beat Meg Whitman, who outspent him significantly?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Speech and money are two very different things.
Citizens United does not allow unlimited corporate spending in elections. Direct campaign contributes by corporations are illegal. However, spending money is essential in distributing speech. If you are going to say that corporations cannot purchase paper, copy toner, billboards, radio ads, print ads, TV ads, or manage a website for the purpose of advancing the political position of the organization, then that is not free speech at all.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
You will sing a very different song when the telecoms pass a law mandating every American to own a cell phone. Don't think it can't happen.

You are so backwards. If a purchase mandate were passed into law, it would ride on the precedent of the health insurance mandate signed into law by Democrats, not Citizens United. Hopefully, the same court that upheld free speech in Citizens United will uphold a limiting principle of government.

Quoting tugger (Reply 21):
Yeah, that is bull. Anytime anyone reduces something down so far and applies to an entire group that has no true definitive definition, it is bull. You must be a Liberal.... why else you you make the statement of a "cynical wart"?

I am commenting that many of the core beliefs of liberalism and Democrats reflect lack of faith in the individual to make decisions and generally live life independently. That is cynicism, and it doesn't make me cynical for saying so.

And maybe you are correct that I am painting with a broad brush. The bastion of conservatism, the ACLU, supported the Citizens United decision.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2012-06-15 20:58:10 and read 3087 times.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 27):
BTW, freedom of speech for a corporation...isn't that what press releases are for? You mean to tell me that freedom of speech for a corporation means funding a certain candidate up to the point where he/she obtains the upper hand in campaigns? I don't think so. It's time the "rights" of a corporation be curtailed.

People in this thread keep talking about corporations. What is a corporation (or company, business, union etc)? It is a voluntary association of actual persons, who decide to act collectively.

The French have a long standing legal tradition in this matter built right into their language. A man or woman is a 'personne physique', a physical person. A company or association, duly registered etc., is a 'personne morale', or a moral or virtual person. It is, like a man or woman, a legal entity with rights and obligations.

I think the right to free speech should not be limited. By limiting corporate free speech, all you are doing is allowing certain corporations and associations rights that others do not enjoy. Why should companies like General Electric, Viacom, Disney, Microsoft (all owners or part owners of mainstream media chains) be allowed to state their opinions 24 hours a day, but Coca Cola or Boeing cannot?

The real issue is campaign finance and campaigning activity. That needs to be brought under control. But if Boeing wants to pay for an ad that says "Vote for X", I have no problem with it (as long as it says "Paid for by Boeing". I dislike these PAC and Super-PAC type organizations.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-06-15 21:31:49 and read 3063 times.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 28):
You are so backwards. If a purchase mandate were passed into law, it would ride on the precedent of the health insurance mandate signed into law by Democrats, not Citizens United. Hopefully, the same court that upheld free speech in Citizens United will uphold a limiting principle of government.

Obamacare has not been decided yet. The same Supreme Court will not exist in twenty years. Purchase mandates have already been signed into law; they have just been done as "taxes." You are mandated to purchase Social Security, for example. You are mandated to purchase road use. Individual states have purchase mandates on cars for car insurance.

So imagine a law that you have to have a cell phone to drive a car. Or cable modem to inhabit a house. You think it's far-fetched? I sure don't.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: seb146
Posted 2012-06-15 22:23:58 and read 3021 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
My question is what will this matter to the man in the video?
Quoting EricR (Reply 24):
They try to paint a picture of life without union representation as armageddon.

It is. It is easier for a group to negotiate with government that an individual to negotiate with government. And, yes, it will cost the individual more out of pocket for insurance and retirement. Unless the right-wing gets their way and they raid all the retirment funds so no one has anything. Yes, that is exactly where we are headed with the current right-wing plan.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2012-06-15 22:35:54 and read 3016 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
Purchase mandates have already been signed into law; they have just been done as "taxes." You are mandated to purchase Social Security, for example. You are mandated to purchase road use.

As far as Social Security: it is a government run program. You're only subsidizing roads if you have a car and put fuel into it.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
Individual states have purchase mandates on cars for car insurance.

But you're not required to purchase or operate a car.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-06-15 23:41:02 and read 2994 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 29):
Why should companies like General Electric, Viacom, Disney, Microsoft (all owners or part owners of mainstream media chains) be allowed to state their opinions 24 hours a day, but Coca Cola or Boeing cannot?

  
Amen!
Not to mention, no one complained when Obama received HUGE contributions from Goldman Sach, JP Morgan Chase, Time Warner, CitiGroup, Google, Morgan Stanley just to name a few.

As far as Barrett being outspend 7 to 1 is false.
Unions poured in $21 million on top of Barrett's $4 totally $25million, while walker spend $31 million. That is not the 7-1 ratio the press is making up.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: nwaesc
Posted 2012-06-16 01:20:44 and read 2967 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
The biggest blow to Democracy was Citizens United. Until that is gone, this is a corporate autocracy.

^This^

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
Democracy died when the greeks decided to raid buildings and assume mob mentality.

Same with the Wisconsin unions.

???


So fighting for the right to peaceably assemble and for the redress of grievances (no pun intended) are indicative of a mob mentality?

What about the people that were part of the uprising that weren't union?

When Walker gave serious thought to calling the National Guard out on his own constituents, was that "democracy?" How 'bout when he noted that he & his staff thought about planting agent provocateurs int the crowd to incite violence? Remember, he decided against it not on moral or legal grounds, but because of concerns on how it might play politically.

P.S. You can't raid a building that belongs to you...

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: einsteinboricua
Posted 2012-06-16 05:37:09 and read 2898 times.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 34):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
Democracy died when the greeks decided to raid buildings and assume mob mentality.

Same with the Wisconsin unions.

???


So fighting for the right to peaceably assemble and for the redress of grievances (no pun intended) are indicative of a mob mentality?

I'm guessing that the Boston Tea Party was also a blow to democracy. Darn those who were against the British at the time.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: JetBlueGuy2006
Posted 2012-06-16 05:54:47 and read 2893 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 29):
The real issue is campaign finance and campaigning activity. That needs to be brought under control. But if Boeing wants to pay for an ad that says "Vote for X", I have no problem with it (as long as it says "Paid for by Boeing". I dislike these PAC and Super-PAC type organizations.

I don't normally agree with a lot of what you say, but I think this is where the problems are. I have no problem with companies pay for ads, but they need to be required to disclose who paid for it. There are a couple articles talking about John McCain's comments that some of Adelson's money (Supported Gingrich & Romney) are from his casino's in Asia and could constitute foreign money. The SuperPac's are such unknown groups. IMO, they could be allowed to exist, but we should be able to know where they get all this cash.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: EricR
Posted 2012-06-16 10:42:30 and read 2779 times.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 31):
It is easier for a group to negotiate with government that an individual to negotiate with government. And, yes, it will cost the individual more out of pocket for insurance and retirement. Unless the right-wing gets their way and they raid all the retirment funds so no one has anything. Yes, that is exactly where we are headed with the current right-wing plan

Well, we'll have to disagree here. Don't you find it ironic that those industries with the highest levels of union representation are those that have the biggest financial issues - including governments? Think of airlines, the auto industry, the steel industry, state and local governments, etc....

The fact of the matter is that unions are asking for benefits that are not financially viable. I am amazed at how outrageous some of these benefits are. They are simply not viable and unions end up destroying the hand that feeds them.

It is no wonder that state and local governments are so financially strapped. A lot of unionized public positions receive retirement benefits and pensions after 20 years of employment. While this may be good for the employee, governments cannot afford this and the average citizen is starting to realize this fact (hence the recent vote in Wisconsin).

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2012-06-16 11:57:11 and read 2761 times.

We are indeed at a tipping point. The United States is no longer a nation of laws.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77486.html

Personally I feel that this is grounds for impeachment, though if the GOP tries it will probably backfire politically. But if these actions are allowed to stand, Congress has become meaningless, when the president can unilaterally do whatever the hell he wants.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-06-16 12:09:00 and read 2740 times.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 35):
I'm guessing that the Boston Tea Party was also a blow to democracy. Darn those who were against the British at the time.

Um, there was no democracy then.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-06-16 12:09:02 and read 2748 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
We are indeed at a tipping point. The United States is no longer a nation of laws.

Someone should show this article to the guy crying in the video.   

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: Pyrex
Posted 2012-06-16 12:26:17 and read 2733 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
The biggest blow to Democracy was Citizens United.

Come on, not this old canard again... the fact is, corporations have always been allowed to give as much money as they wanted to politicians. All they needed to do was call themselves media entities and they could give as much free print-space and air-time as they wanted to their preferred candidates (usually those left of the political spectrum). All Citizens United does is come closer to equalizing the playing field between media corporations and non-media corporations (media companies still have a huge advantage, though, for several reasons). The only reason why we are seeing so many people get their panties in a twist about Citizens United is because when the balance of corporate money was going very firmly to the left they didn't have a problem.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: 2707200X
Posted 2012-06-16 13:39:38 and read 2684 times.

I an going to he honest here, Conservatives in leadership are trying to stifle American democracy, look at Florida with all the voter purges being made to apparently remove dead people, even some conservatives have taken issue with this voter purge as it is riddled in errors, it is more an attempt to restrain legal minorities and potential Democrats from voting. Look at Michigan with the state trying to nullify local governments and replace them with state appointed bosses, an example being Pontiac. These takeovers are certainly what other people from other democratic countries would call dictatorial. Disgraced veteran Allen West didn't get rebuked at all by the GOP leadership when he said 71 to 81 members of the "Democrat Party" where card carrying communists, not a very civil tongue. Of course conservatives want small government and less regulation, a worthy and scholarly discussion to talk about but what is it about for the right-wing, defund alternative energy while subsidizing oil, defund Planned Parenthood though the vast majority of the actions are preventive care and examinations, fire public school teachers cause there union evolution loving hacks and they gave you bad grades (both sides guilty), jack up tuition cause intellectual professors will indoctrinate your kids to be liberals, labor laws and minimum wage.

The Republicans do not want to move forward because they may be afraid that Obama will get the credit (in which they will get credit to) so they pass instead of infrastructure bills and the usual bi-partisan agreements laws that restrict voting, anti gay laws, anti choice laws, immigrant chasing in states as well as birther laws in the states. The Republicans have gone a long way from their history of road building, voter rights (then the southern dems where in the wrong side) and environmental laws. The spokesman of the right wing movement are reclusive billionaires, birthers, deathers, Rush Limbaugh, AM talk and FOX News.

Look at the comments that I am reading, the craziness is in here too. union organizing being compared to the riotous building burning protests in Greece, Union people where not burning down buildings and defences of Citizens United made with utterly false statements.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: RedAirForce
Posted 2012-06-16 13:41:51 and read 2685 times.

The only threat to democracy in the United States is when short term thinking people start talking about limiting free speech and expression. Once we head down that road we are done. All speech, left and right, must be protected, even if you do not like who is paying for it...KKK, Black Panthers, Coca Cola, The Teachers Union, etc. You do not like what is being said? Fine, organize and oppose with your own ideas; but you do not get to start limiting others speech because you do not like how it was paid for. If any group (unions, corporations, etc.) was really controlling our government we would not be so divided! Our division shows that both sides are getting their message out. Democracy here is fine, stop complaining when you do not get the results you want (that goes for both the left and right).

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: dfwrevolution
Posted 2012-06-16 14:50:57 and read 2639 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
Obamacare has not been decided yet. The same Supreme Court will not exist in twenty years.

Twenty years from now, the precedent established in the PPACA case will determine whether it is Constitutional to mandate the purchase of a private service. If you don't want the federal government mandating the purchase of cell phones, then you better hope the USSC strikes down part/all of PPACA.

This is a ridiculous tangent. Citizens United was a first amendment case. It would have no bearing on a commerce clause matter like private purchase mandates.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
Purchase mandates have already been signed into law; they have just been done as "taxes." You are mandated to purchase Social Security, for example. You are mandated to purchase road use.

This is a matter of debate that will not be settled until the USSC rules on PPACA. Social Security and roads are public services. There has never been precedent for federally-mandated purchase of private services until PPACA. It's still not clear if the federal power to tax extends to mandating you to purchase a service through a private party.

Again, if this is a power you fear the government abusing, I hope you support a decision to strike-down PPACA.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
Individual states have purchase mandates on cars for car insurance.

States have plenary police power. The federal government does not.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: connies4ever
Posted 2012-06-16 15:26:13 and read 2604 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
We are indeed at a tipping point. The United States is no longer a nation of laws.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77486.html

Personally I feel that this is grounds for impeachment, though if the GOP tries it will probably backfire politically. But if these actions are allowed to stand, Congress has become meaningless, when the president can unilaterally do whatever the hell he wants.

In the linked article, which I assume you read (fair use quote):

“If the president says we’re not going to enforce the law, there’s really nothing anyone can do about it,” University of Pennsylvania constitutional law professor Kermit Roosevelt said. “It’s clearly a political calculation.”

I have to assume the learned professor knows the constitution better than you do. It's his job, after all. IF I were American, opinions like this, and I am sure there will be many (check out tomorrows talking head TV), that would be good enough. EO's, to my understanding, have been widely used by many presidents to get what they wanted that Congress would not provide. BHO is certainly not the first.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: dfwrevolution
Posted 2012-06-16 16:57:20 and read 2572 times.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 45):
I have to assume the learned professor knows the constitution better than you do. It's his job, after all.

Obama was a constitutional law professor and his administration has suffered repeated blows and challenges regarding the constitutionality of his administration's actions. Cases recently lost by the Obama administration in unanimous judgement:

Hosanna-Tabor Church v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission
United States v. Jones
Sackett v. Environmental Protection Agency
Bond v. United States


And other major cases in progress:

- PPACA mandate, which received criticism from both sides of the court
- Arizona immigration law, during which one of Obama's appointees, Justice Sotomayor, bluntly told the U.S. Solicitor General “You can see it’s not selling very well" in reference to his central argument
- U.S. DOJ suing states for voter ID laws that have already been upheld by the Supreme Court as constitutional
- U.S. Catholic churches suing HHS for infringing on religious liberty

Clearly not everything translates from academia to the real world.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: windy95
Posted 2012-06-16 18:05:06 and read 2539 times.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 46):
Clearly not everything translates from academia to the real world.

Rep. Steve King to sue Obama admin over amnesty order

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/...steve-king-sue-obama-admin-over-a/

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2012-06-16 18:15:09 and read 2539 times.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 45):
In the linked article, which I assume you read (fair use quote):

“If the president says we’re not going to enforce the law, there’s really nothing anyone can do about it,” University of Pennsylvania constitutional law professor Kermit Roosevelt said. “It’s clearly a political calculation.”

I have to assume the learned professor knows the constitution better than you do. It's his job, after all.

Typical leftist thinking. The Constitution grants the EXCLUSIVE power to make laws to Congress. It vests the power to execute the instructions of Congress to the Executive branch (Executive => executes)

Obama - so-called Constitutional expert, and they guy you quoted know as much about the law as did Al Capone - just enough to know how to break it.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: connies4ever
Posted 2012-06-17 05:53:04 and read 2426 times.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 46):
Obama was a constitutional law professor and his administration has suffered repeated blows and challenges regarding the constitutionality of his administration's actions. Cases recently lost by the Obama administration in unanimous judgement:

Hosanna-Tabor Church v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission
United States v. Jones
Sackett v. Environmental Protection Agency
Bond v. United States

Clearly not everything translates from academia to the real world.

Clearly you're never going to win them all, that's for sure. And, based on our own biases, we only ever find what we're looking for. It's as true in politics as it is in science.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 48):
Typical leftist thinking. The Constitution grants the EXCLUSIVE power to make laws to Congress. It vests the power to execute the instructions of Congress to the Executive branch (Executive => executes)

Obama - so-called Constitutional expert, and they guy you quoted know as much about the law as did Al Capone - just enough to know how to break it.

Riposte: typical reactionary thinking. Yes, Congress passes laws (that is, when it actually passes a law these days), but the Executive determines how that law is to be enforced.

As for being a leftist (actually, I'm a member of the Liberal Federation of Canada, which has been the dominant political party the past century or so), proud of it. America could use a dose.

Old saying in Canada: "We can all stand together, or we can all hang separately."

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: redflyer
Posted 2012-06-17 08:19:07 and read 2369 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
It cannot be executed, put in jail, held accountable for criminal acts, get married.

Sure it can: Executed? Not per se, but the government can certainly put a corporation out of business if its conduct is egregious enough. Put in jail? In a manner of speaking because a corporation could be barred from conducting business by the government, which would be akin to being in jail. Held accountable for criminal acts? Most definitely. Get married? What do you think all these mergers are?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
When only the wealthy control the outcome of elections, that is not democracy.

I keep hearing this mantra. Can someone please explain to me how the wealthy control elections? Specifically, can someone tell me how a single dollar spent by a corporation or wealthy donor impacted my vote in any election that I've participated in over the past 32 years?

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: windy95
Posted 2012-06-17 10:06:49 and read 2312 times.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 49):
Yes, Congress passes laws (that is, when it actually passes a law these days), but the Executive determines how that law is to be enforced.

But in this case he is actually creating a law. Not deciding how to enforce it. Immigration and making laws are the powers of congress. The fact that nothing has happened in congress lately mean's nothing. That is the whole point of the system. In 2008 we elect a President and after two years the people had enough and put the brakes on him by changing congress. That is the way it has alwyay's worked here. Nothing new.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: Confuscius
Posted 2012-06-17 10:52:59 and read 2292 times.

Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?  

Why worry? The world will end in six months.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: connies4ever
Posted 2012-06-17 11:43:34 and read 2263 times.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 51):
But in this case he is actually creating a law.

Not clear to these eyes, but then living north of the border has obviously blurred my vision. Must be our Medicare.

But glad I'm here, despite Harper and his gang of thugs.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-06-17 12:48:05 and read 2232 times.

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 52):
Why worry? The world will end in six months.

Actually science proved that the mayan calendar has another like 300 years lol

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: windy95
Posted 2012-06-17 14:05:16 and read 2217 times.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 53):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 51):
But in this case he is actually creating a law.

Not clear to these eyes

He is creating something where there is nothing. And giving a benefit of a work visa to boot. That is creating something not executing the law that is on the books.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: connies4ever
Posted 2012-06-17 14:55:03 and read 2193 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 54):
Actually science proved that the mayan calendar has another like 300 years lol

Must be the extended warranty.  
Quoting windy95 (Reply 55):
He is creating something where there is nothing. And giving a benefit of a work visa to boot. That is creating something not executing the law that is on the books.

Arguing semantics here at this point. Not implementing something but rather deferring temporarily is not creating something out of nothing. Granting work permits, perhaps. But others commenting on this topic have indicated that illegals already can get permits. So....?

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-06-17 22:48:40 and read 2112 times.

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 52):
Why worry? The world will end in six months.
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 54):
Actually science proved that the mayan calendar has another like 300 years lol




Someone better tell the weeping man in the video.


Can anyone answer my question. How will this man's life be affected by the new rules set by governor Walker?

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: slider
Posted 2012-06-18 10:43:53 and read 1965 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
The biggest blow to Democracy was Citizens United. Until that is gone, this is a corporate autocracy.

I think we’ll agree to disagree about this. I don’t care for the money in campaigns, but don’t have a philosophical problem with it. When the First Amendment was crafted, they didn’t want to have the government be empowered to block contrarian political speech. If someone wants to express their opinions and exert their influence—not illegal or unethical unless a pol then curries favor in their *actions* post-election—they should be able to do so and, thinking historically, citizens wouldn’t have had the ability to do so unless they owned a TV network or a newspaper.

As a country, we spend less on political advertising than we do advertising potato chips. I needn’t remind you how much the federal government spends, taxes and borrows. But the entire bucket of dough in a presidential election year is less than 2/10 of 1% of what the government is spending every year. Paying for political advocacy is not wrong, it is not new, nor should it be squelched. In some ways, you could make an argument that we have too LITTLE political advertising, not too much.

Now you have the old media squawking about it because their position of power—really a hegemonic position before the internet as well—has been checked and eroded. Campaign finance laws burden free speech and any mechanism that would restrict it would be, from a practical standpoint, unwieldy, impractical and onerous to monitor and administer.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2012-06-18 11:00:59 and read 1952 times.

Quoting slider (Reply 58):
As a country, we spend less on political advertising than we do advertising potato chips

I don't know about that. This year's presidential race is expected to cost $4 BILLION.  

Like I said, if Boeing wants to spend $50 million on adds that say 'Vote for Bozzo', I have no problem with it, as long as at the bottom of the ad it says "paid for by Boeing"

If George Soros wants to spend $100 million on attack ads against Romney, that's fine, as long as it says, "Paid for by George Soros"

If the UAW wants to pay for ads, fine, as long as it says "Paid for by the UAW"

For private individuals, most of whom can't afford to pay for their own ads, I think the only available choice should be to donate money to the candidate or to the political party.

What I truly despise are campaign activity paid for by some organization that gives itself a nice attractive name, like "Citizens for a Better America" and you have no idea if it is funded by a single guy like Soros, or a handful of like-minded persons, or if it is actually a grassroots thing. Political activity should only be allowed to happen when it is plainly obvious who is behind it, IMHO.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-06-18 11:04:37 and read 1948 times.

***Update***

The crying man in the video resurfaced to continue to whine about the corporate spending on 'the other side'. The crying man completely loses it when he calls in and ended up getting educated on campaign spending.
Listen to both videos;

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/hes-...radio-host-during-testy-interview/

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: einsteinboricua
Posted 2012-06-18 11:20:00 and read 1935 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 54):
Quoting Confuscius (Reply 52):
Why worry? The world will end in six months.

Actually science proved that the mayan calendar has another like 300 years lol

You guys believe in the calendar but not in their gods...?? That's like believing in the Bible but not in God...  

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 59):
Like I said, if Boeing wants to spend $50 million on adds that say 'Vote for Bozzo', I have no problem with it, as long as at the bottom of the ad it says "paid for by Boeing"

If George Soros wants to spend $100 million on attack ads against Romney, that's fine, as long as it says, "Paid for by George Soros"

If the UAW wants to pay for ads, fine, as long as it says "Paid for by the UAW"

For once, I actually agree with you, in part. Because on one hand you have CEOs claiming that their company is not making enough money and therefore cannot hire people. On the other hand, they are able to spend millions in a short time period when those millions could have been used through months to hire hundreds of employees. If trickle down economics does work, apparently it's not being put to good use. The money made by companies, instead of being used to create jobs as Republicans would have us believe, is being used to fund politicians.

Ergo, I support that a party makes clear who paid for an ad, but I also believe a limit should be imposed.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: starrion
Posted 2012-06-18 22:49:04 and read 1822 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
No, it is an organization. It has limited "rights." It cannot be executed, put in jail, held accountable for criminal acts, get married.

The accounting firm Arthur Anderson got executed in the United States. They lost the right to do accounting for US firms and had to go out of business.

Topic: RE: Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?
Username: windy95
Posted 2012-06-19 05:27:31 and read 1764 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 60):
***Update***

The crying man in the video resurfaced to continue to whine about the corporate spending on 'the other side'.

Thanks for the good laugh this morning. When confronted with facts his looses his marbles.


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