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Topic: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: Aaron747
Posted 2012-09-14 18:20:47 and read 3509 times.

Oh boy...

“Look across that region today, and what do we see? The slaughter of brave dissidents in Syria. Mobs storming American embassies and consulates. Iran four years closer to gaining a nuclear weapon. Israel, our best ally in the region, treated with indifference bordering on contempt by the Obama administration.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/160001#.UFPVZLLib-4

Where does this guy get this stuff? Is he picking up the good stuff every time he goes back to this great state for a visit? Obama and Bibi have butted heads on the settlement deals and the timetable for Iran security concerns. Other than that, I can't really see where they disagree about anything else. Arms deals have not been blocked. DC and Jerusalem had a unified voice and coordinated response to the uprisings in Egypt and Syria. Obama clearly went against his own values, took the advice of his foreign policy team, and enacted a more strenuous sanction package against Iran, which is also what Bibi desired. Again, where does Ryan come up with this stuff?

Mr. Barak said just 3 weeks ago:

“I think that from my point of view as defense minister they are extremely good, extremely deep and profound,” Barak, a former Israeli prime minister, told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer. “I can see long years, um, administrations of both sides of political aisle deeply supporting the state of Israeli and I believe that reflects a profound feeling among the American people. But I should tell you honestly that this administration under President Obama is doing in regard to our security more than anything that I can remember in the past.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/79162.html

Never mind that Ehud Barak is one of the most decorated leaders in the history of the IDF.

Word of advice to the Romney camp so they don't completely lose independent folks who pay attention to foreign policy: stick to the domestic agenda please. This stuff is pure BS.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2012-09-14 18:55:50 and read 3481 times.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Word of advice to the Romney camp so they don't completely lose independent folks who pay attention to foreign policy: stick to the domestic agenda please.

Sorry, but this week's events display for all to see the ineptitude of the current administration in a tactical sense (crisis management) and strategically in the fact that the whole muslim world seems to think expressing hatred for the US and killing Americans they can get their hands on is a wonderful idea, 3 years after Obama's Cairo speech.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: okie
Posted 2012-09-14 19:21:12 and read 3457 times.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Word of advice to the Romney camp so they don't completely lose independent folks who pay attention to foreign policy: stick to the domestic agenda please. This stuff is pure BS

Well the political rhetoric and Bovine Manure is getting pretty deep the closer to the election it gets.

You just have to use the Anet non av definitions to figure where you stand.

A. If you think your government should be minding what is going on in other countries the you are a neo con.

B. If you think your government should be minding what you do and when you do it and how you do it and should be caring for you cradle to grave then you are a liberal.

C. If you think your government should be minding everybody's business everywhere foreign and domestic then of course you are a moderate.

D If you think that your government should not be minding anybody's business anywhere then of course you are an extremist.


Okie

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: Aaron747
Posted 2012-09-14 19:25:30 and read 3445 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
tactical sense (crisis management)

How so?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
strategically in the fact that the whole muslim world seems to think expressing hatred for the US and killing Americans they can get their hands on

It would be nice if this problem were one-dimensional, but unfortunately it isn't.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: pu
Posted 2012-09-14 19:53:07 and read 3423 times.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Word of advice to the Romney camp so they don't completely lose independent folks who pay attention to foreign policy: stick to the domestic agenda please.

My perception is that if you fear Muslims or like muscular Bush-style foreign policies, you are already in the Romney camp. The latest events bruise some American egos who like to think of the world in terms of who is more powerful and who isn't, but as usual the events present exactly zero threat to American security. Tiny Denmark went through much the same thing, and...they are still happy and safe as always without attacking those who insult them. In fact there is no country or entity in the world that has both the desire and ability to harm America in any significant way, but those dominated by Muslim fear are already against Obama.
.
Those who fear Muslims and see the world in terms of threats were never on Obama's side, and if you're the type who associates military responses with the emotional satisfaction from saving face, again, you're already in Romney's camp.
.
I think there are quite a few Americans very thankful that a hothead like McCain isn't in power and who have had quite enough with overseas adventures in sandpiles for a lifetime. We'll see if Obama or McCain get a poll bump after this week....I bet Obama does considering America's antiwar mood.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):

the whole muslim world

The whole Muslim world, eh? Methinks your fears are greatly exaggerated.
.
The Libyans are profoundly sad at the loss of Ambassador Stevens, whose long history in the region helped guide a thoughtful and appreciated American assistance program during the struggle against Qadaffi. For once America helped oust a dictator instead of its usual policy of keeping them in power....and the Libyans noticed. Of course there are still radicals in Libya and the government is still fragile and not totally in control of all areas. But Libyans generally are perhaps the first Muslim state to embrace America in the wake of an innovative, effecient less imperial US foreign policy approach that was a startling success dethroning Qadaffi - compared to the costly never ending military bravado used to justify the Iraq-Afghanistan adventures which produced inconclusive )or at best mixed) results.

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-14 19:54:04]

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-09-14 19:54:37 and read 3419 times.

Quoting okie (Reply 2):
B. If you think your government should be minding what you do and when you do it and how you do it and should be caring for you cradle to grave then you are a liberal.

Woah woah woah. That's a very Conservative point of view.

The government should tell you what birth control you can get.
The government should tell you whether you can marry the partner of your choice.
The government should tell you what consensual sexual acts you may perform in the privacy of your own home.
The government should tell you whether you can look at porn.
The government should tell you what you can smoke in your own home.
The government should tell you whether you can build a house of worship where other houses of worship are built.
The government should tell you whether you can get an abortion.
The government should teach your children specific religious teachings in school.

So actually, that would not be liberalism at all.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: casinterest
Posted 2012-09-14 20:05:21 and read 3410 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Sorry, but this week's events display for all to see the ineptitude of the current administration in a tactical sense (crisis management) and strategically in the fact that the whole muslim world seems to think expressing hatred for the US and killing Americans they can get their hands on is a wonderful idea, 3 years after Obama's Cairo speech.

Please,
All it has highlighted is Romney and Ryan's inability to work towards diplomacy. The quick to point blame and slow to understand mentality prevelant in the Rush and Hannity disciples is sad and scary.

LIbya, Yemen , and Egypt are all countries that are in a new governmental experiment, and they are struggling with some of the events. Libya is working with the US , Egypt and Yemen needs a bit more guidance. There are a lot of people in these countries. Some are extrmists. Others are working hard to get by. They need time and guidance. THe concept of frreedom of speech and religion is not well understood in countries that have been ruled by dictators, where the government approves everything,

Quoting okie (Reply 2):
C. If you think your government should be minding everybody's business everywhere foreign and domestic then of course you are a moderate.

This seesms to be more of the NeoCons these days.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: Ken777
Posted 2012-09-14 20:14:42 and read 3400 times.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Obama clearly went against his own values, took the advice of his foreign policy team, and enacted a more strenuous sanction package against Iran, which is also what Bibi desired.

Obama has some very strong relationships with leaders in Israel. Bibi is not included in that group, but Bibi has not been a good friend of President Obama. He is, however, a long term friend of Willard Mitt Romney.

Makes you wonder how Bibi has let his friendship with Romney distort his relations with the current President. His comment about the Red Line was grossly inappropriate 60 days before an election. We don't need him brown nosing Romney, or interfering with Obama's campaign.

My guess is that there are a lot of people in Israel who are angry and embarrassed at Bibi - including some more responsible senior political leaders.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Word of advice to the Romney camp so they don't completely lose independent folks who pay attention to foreign policy: stick to the domestic agenda please. This stuff is pure BS.

Romney's credentials in foreign relations are like his last 12 years of income tax returns - 90% missing.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Sorry, but this week's events display for all to see the ineptitude of the current administration

It looks like Romney and Ryan are pretty out of it when it comes to their comments.

Most important factor: The Cairo statement that might be considered an apology was made before the attack that killed an Ambassador & 3 other Americans. It was focused on a rancid film made in the US that was exceptionally effective in offending the Muslims. The release was probably made in an effort to calm reactions to the film.

That was the "apology" that Romney went after. Must mean that he could give a $hit about inciting Muslims around the world to act against the US. Maybe he can find other ways to insult Muslims. Could it be a Mormon thing?

Maybe Romney & Ryan should pay attention to briefings on just how far the reactions in the Muslim World have spread. Demonstrations around the world are related to the film and are a totally different issue than the terrorists attack on the Ambassador & 3 others.

If Romney & Ryan cannot see the different issues in play today then I would be seriously concerned about just how ignorant they are in the area of Foreign Relations. It is more than a Swill Bank Account.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2012-09-14 20:21:50 and read 3393 times.

I would deeply fear that Romney/Ryan would green light and even fully support if and when Israel decided to bom in Iran.
They clearly want the Christian and Jewish votes - and their campaign cash - so will support policies that would mean more war and bombing in the MENA region, supporting only Christians or moderate Islam leaders, ones that would kiss the USA's ass and repress anyone challanging them in their countries.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: seb146
Posted 2012-09-14 20:54:14 and read 3376 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
this week's events display for all to see the ineptitude of the current administration

What? Like they can't control what other governments show it's citizens? You understand, don't you, that the STATE RUN MEDIA in these countries are the ones inciting the violence by saying "The American government says..."? Right? You understand that, right?

Why do these right-wing extremists take the myopic view that Isreal is our only ally in the middle east? They are not. There is Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, Turkey and we really do want to help Tunisia, Lybia, and Yemen gain more freedoms.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: victrola
Posted 2012-09-14 22:10:49 and read 3352 times.

I don't give a damn about Israel. I am sick and tired of American politicians who are unable to distinguish between what is good for America and what the current right wing extremist government of Israel thinks is good for Israel. I am not willing to go to war against Iran because Bibi Netanyahu thinks it is a good idea.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2012-09-14 22:25:59 and read 3341 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
His comment about the Red Line was grossly inappropriate 60 days before an election.

Do you honestly think the leader of Israel gives a shit about how his comments might impact elections in the United States?

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-09-15 01:33:36 and read 3292 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):

Ken, I understand and appreciate the concern that we all share for those of the Muslim faith. We certainly don't want to offend people for religious viewpoints that sometimes are twisted and hijacked by a few extremists - the proverbial "throwing the baby out with the bath water". When a few disgruntled posters refer to "all Muslims" or generalize to support their own viewpoint, the dialogue suffers and their argument is lost.

In that same vein, wouldn't it be nice if we can also stop "throwing the baby out with the bath water" in regards to Christians and Mormons in these threads? For example, when you say "maybe. It's a Mormon thing?", do you find that productive? I'm assuming of course that you arent intending to insult the many Christians, Mormons, etc that enjoy this forum with you.

I think it would be a lot more productive and far less divisive if we could avoid such blatant acts of disrespect, and if we could instead call out the two or three posters whom you disagree with. As a Liberal, I'd think that would be the more educated and open minded thing to do.

Hey, thanks.  

-Dave

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: something
Posted 2012-09-15 04:51:11 and read 3250 times.

It is kind of heart-warming that people still take Romney/Ryan seriously. I don't think Romney - whatever he might stand for - would make the worst president in the history of the USA; unfortunately, in the USA politics are a show-act and people's credentials mean less than charisma. Of which he has none.

Ryan is a complete toolbox. He seems to have great difficulty grasping concepts and ideas that are longer than 1-2 sentences. He has no relevant education or experience and it shows.

The Republicans are going through an identity crisis these days and it for that reason alone why I think that the party as it is today is yesterday's news. They're trying to be a bit of everything, but don't realize that they end up being nothing of anything. They've lost credibility with the Jesus people, with moderates, with the ''fiscal conservatives'', with most minorities, etc. etc. The only thing that unites ''the Republicans'' (in quotation marks because I don't think there is such a thing anymore), is the borderline racist disdain of Obama.

And that's the last straw they're desperately trying to clutch on. Their message is very simple: We aren't very good, but at least we're not Obama. Look what a terrible person he is, so even though you don't like us, you're still better off with us than with him.

It's desperate and pathetic. And I hope it will cost them not only this election, but all credibility for the foreseeable future. Republicans are a dying breed. Who under the age of 25 really cares about denying the things DocLightning listed above to their friends anymore? Who other than some isolated weirdos in the midwest are actually onboard with the bible over science agenda? Who under 25, who has the internet and actually left their own country, believes in the Republican wet dreams of American exceptionalism or that America was the best country on earth?

The only thing Republicans have left are those fairy tales of fiscal responsibility, aggressive foreign policies, strong defense, harsh immigration laws (~racism; 'cause I don't see them asking for stricter immigration laws for Europeans) and the intangible notion of ''unlimited opportunities'' and ''the American dream''. All of which are scientifically disproven myths, but I don't see the average person ever reaching a sufficient level of education to understand that.

That's what the Republican's future is. Stay out of people's personal habits, tone down the religious rhetoric at least a bit, and exploit people's ignorance on complex issues like the economy, history, science etc. to their own advantage. ''Their own'' being the big corporations paying them. This isn't enough for the Republicans of today but realistically, they can either take that, or go home with nothing at all.

With that being said, expect more of those ridiculous jabs at Obama. That's the last arrow in their quiver. We're not very good, but we're at least not Obama. So we must make him look as bad as we can.

Like I said.. reposition the Republican party and accept that's all you can get, or continue to go home empty handed. If voter lethargy on the potentially Democratic side of the American population weren't as great, I would assume the Republicans of today wouldn't get more than 25-30% of the votes. (None of my friends, or their friends, or friends of their friends vote because ''politics are boring and it's a huge hassle.. jury duty and all). If the US electorate was better educated and informed, the Republican platform of today would appeal to 5-10% of people - which is about the statistical percentage of people with double digit IQs.

Every Democrat should be most happy about Romney/Ryan and their cute little stories. I don't look at them as outrageous lies, but as generous favors they're doing the Democrats. By trying to make Obama look bad, they're making themselves look even worse without even noticing it. How is that not amusingly ironic?

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: Aaron747
Posted 2012-09-15 05:02:18 and read 3248 times.

Quoting pu (Reply 4):
Those who fear Muslims and see the world in terms of threats were never on Obama's side, and if you're the type who associates military responses with the emotional satisfaction from saving face, again, you're already in Romney's camp.

I am not in the fearing Muslims camp either, but if you're saying here that there are not in fact threats out there, you are mistaken. Obama has said the same.

Quoting pu (Reply 4):
I think there are quite a few Americans very thankful that a hothead like McCain isn't in power and who have had quite enough with overseas adventures in sandpiles for a lifetime.

McCain is actually quite reasonable as it turns out. Just last night he let Fox News have it for their inaccurate representation of Libya and contemporary Egypt:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/...-news-were-wrong-about-135607.html

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-09-15 07:00:41 and read 3198 times.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Word of advice to the Romney camp so they don't completely lose independent folks who pay attention to foreign policy: stick to the domestic agenda please. This stuff is pure BS.

Unfortunately for Romney, foreign policy just doesn't go away for four years. He's obviously built himself on the economy, but if he's not even competent when it comes to dealing with other countries (and he's given no signs that he is and plenty that he isn't), that's going to end up being off-putting to people, and for good reason.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
strategically in the fact that the whole muslim world seems to think expressing hatred for the US and killing Americans they can get their hands on is a wonderful idea, 3 years after Obama's Cairo speech.

You really think there is anything that the US could have done to change that?

-Mir

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: Ken777
Posted 2012-09-15 09:50:11 and read 3145 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 11):
Do you honestly think the leader of Israel gives a shit about how his comments might impact elections in the United States?

Considering that BiBi & Mitt are long time friends I believe that it was in his personal interests to slip one to President Obama shortly before the election. Fortunately there are other senior politicians in Israel that have a good relation with President Obama

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 12):
For example, when you say "maybe. It's a Mormon thing?", do you find that productive?

I thought it appropriate in that it pointed out that not everyone is a "traditional Christian". And it did so without using any other religion. That, for me, is especially useful because the GOP has a Mormon running for President.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2012-09-15 10:18:48 and read 3130 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 11):
Do you honestly think the leader of Israel gives a shit about how his comments might impact elections in the United States?
Making matters all the dicier for Obama is the possibility that, beyond the embassy protests, he may also have to cope with a related headache induced by Israel and Iran—and in particular by Bibi Netanyahu. In the days before the Libya tragedy, Netanyahu launched a broadside plainly aimed at the U.S. over what he sees as its spinelessness in working with Israel to halt the Iranian nuclear program by any means necessary. To some, the broadside had all the appearances of Netanyahu trying not just to place a thumb on the scale in America’s election but of slamming his whole hand on it. And there is no paucity of evidence to suggest Netanyahu would much prefer Romney, whom he has known for years, to win; his warm embrace of the Republican nominee when he visited Israel in July, which was tantamount to an endorsement, was ­remarkable in its brazenness and nearly without precedent in the modern annals of presidential politics.

Still, there are signs that Netanyahu may simply be trying to exercise what ­leverage he has now because he knows it will soon be diminished. As a former American intelligence officer who met ­recently with top Likud officials put it to Politico, “They are grimly accepting the reality Mitt won’t win.”


http://nymag.com/news/politics/power...dle-east-unrest-2012-9/index1.html

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 11):
Do you honestly think the leader of Israel gives a shit about how his comments might impact elections in the United States?

Ironic that there is a 'Support Israel' advert on this page where I can:

Join thousands of other courageous people who have already signed the petition to "Stand for Israel" and proclaim their solidarity with her people.

Oh, and I get a free pin.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-09-15 10:45:37 and read 3114 times.

Oh, we'll thanks for pointing out that Romney is a Mormon, Ken.

As far as BiBi goes, I think he should embrace Romney if he is putting the interests of Israel first - that's his job. If stopping Iran from developing nuclear weapons is a priority, and if the US is the best support for that action, he should clearly be promoting what furthers Israel's interests.

-Dave

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: Ken777
Posted 2012-09-15 12:34:02 and read 3058 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 18):

Oh, we'll thanks for pointing out that Romney is a Mormon, Ken.

You didn't know?   

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2012-09-16 17:01:21 and read 2923 times.

Bibi Netanyahu was on NBC evening news today attempting to pressure the US into attacking Iran. A foreign head of state using the election process of another state to get what he wants is an unwelcome turn of events.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2012-09-16 17:10:22 and read 2909 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Woah woah woah. That's a very Conservative point of view.

The government should tell you what birth control you can get.
The government should tell you whether you can marry the partner of your choice.
The government should tell you what consensual sexual acts you may perform in the privacy of your own home.
The government should tell you whether you can look at porn.
The government should tell you what you can smoke in your own home.
The government should tell you whether you can build a house of worship where other houses of worship are built.
The government should tell you whether you can get an abortion.
The government should teach your children specific religious teachings in school.

So actually, that would not be liberalism at all.

Funny. I think most people here would agree that I am quite conservative, and I don't agree with a single one of those positions.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
You didn't know?

More like we don't really care.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 20):
Bibi Netanyahu was on NBC evening news today attempting to pressure the US into attacking Iran. A foreign head of state using the election process of another state to get what he wants is an unwelcome turn of events.

That's funny, because I got the opposite impression.

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2...tion?chromedomain=nbcpolitics&lite

He tried to quiet criticisms of Obama - even though you know he is still irked by Obama's treatment of him.. He knows that whichever side wins in November, he will have to work with them. He's not about to pick sides. Netanyahu is doing his job.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2012-09-16 18:05:53 and read 2897 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
He tried to quiet criticisms of Obama - even though you know he is still irked by Obama's treatment of him.. He knows that whichever side wins in November, he will have to work with them. He's not about to pick sides. Netanyahu is doing his job.


In my defence, the NBC news only showed a soundbite of what he said, But others disagree. From my post #17 above

there is no paucity of evidence to suggest Netanyahu would much prefer Romney, whom he has known for years, to win; his warm embrace of the Republican nominee when he visited Israel in July, which was tantamount to an endorsement, was ­remarkable in its brazenness and nearly without precedent in the modern annals of presidential politics.

Still, there are signs that Netanyahu may simply be trying to exercise what ­leverage he has now because he knows it will soon be diminished. As a former American intelligence officer who met ­recently with top Likud officials put it to Politico, “They are grimly accepting the reality Mitt won’t win.”

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2012-09-16 18:41:57 and read 2877 times.

Good to see that a former head of the Israeli Intelligence service Mossad, says that an attack on Iran would be a stupid idea.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?...01417n&tag=contentMain;cbsCarousel

Perhaps BiBi is not listening to his own advisors.

Perhaps Obama is a friend of Israel, but wary of Netanyahu war mongering. If 'contempt' means stepping back from a dangerous un needed, un-winnable war, I'm all for it.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-09-16 23:08:23 and read 2823 times.

IMHO the biggest challenge stemming from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is that we will now be unable to aggressively pursue a military option - if needed - to protect American interests without a global blessing and perhaps without another country or organization leading.

I'm not advocating an attack on Iran or anywhere else, but if the regime in Iran obtains nuclear weapons and continues to threaten Israel, I wonder what, if anything, would/will be done? At this point, I doubt much of anything.

-Dave

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-09-17 00:41:50 and read 2846 times.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 23):
Good to see that a former head of the Israeli Intelligence service Mossad, says that an attack on Iran would be a stupid idea.

The snake has two heads then.

Because, Bibi's article, from today's SMH, and after "reading between" the lines, I'd say he wants war alright !

http://www.smh.com.au/world/iran-led...says-netanyahu-20120916-260gd.html

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 23):
Perhaps BiBi is not listening to his own advisors.

OH, he's listening, don't you worry.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-09-17 14:28:30 and read 2753 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 24):
I'm not advocating an attack on Iran or anywhere else, but if the regime in Iran obtains nuclear weapons and continues to threaten Israel, I wonder what, if anything, would/will be done?

probably as much as we do to North Korea always threatening South Korea, India and Pakistan always threatening each other, China threatening Taiwan, or the Soviets that used to threaten us. I'm not saying these examples are all apples to apples but I still don't think that Iran is going to hammer the last nail into their nuke and immediately hit the launch button. I think the closest parallel is NK and SK... NK is so close to their adversary and has even fired upon them. They're maniacs, not to be ignored, but can be dealt with in ways other than Iraq-2003

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-09-17 16:47:31 and read 2742 times.

Well, I'd argue that one key difference is that NK is fairly isolated while Iran is surrounded by nations with a somewhat similar ideology vis a vis Israel. In fact, Israel is the isolated country in the geographical sense.

I hope you are correct. It seems to me that Israel is very vulnerable to a variety of threats - nukes are just an escalation of them. However, if GWB is supposedly crazy enough to lead us into a war against Muslims, why would A...however you spell his name be any less eager or willing to do the same?

-Dave

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-09-17 17:38:43 and read 2730 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 27):
I hope you are correct. It seems to me that Israel is very vulnerable to a variety of threats - nukes are just an escalation of them. However, if GWB is supposedly crazy enough to lead us into a war against Muslims, why would A...however you spell his name be any less eager or willing to do the same?

What are they gonna do, send a nuke at Israel? Israel has nukes themselves and there would be no stopping the entire destruction of Iran if that happens. No, the nukes are a bartering tool, and anti-invasion card. Iran is willing to do some very questionable things but I in no way think they're suicidal. Any proof that they are (enough to warrant an invasion and start another war?)

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-09-17 17:50:09 and read 2728 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
the fact that the whole muslim world seems to think expressing hatred for the US and killing Americans they can get their hands on is a wonderful idea,

Really? All two billion of them? To the person?

A comment like that is beneath you, Dreadnought.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
Funny. I think most people here would agree that I am quite conservative, and I don't agree with a single one of those positions.

Then you are not a U.S. conservative. You are either a liberal or libertarian.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-09-17 23:43:14 and read 2690 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 28):
What are they gonna do, send a nuke at Israel? Israel has nukes themselves and there would be no stopping the entire destruction of Iran if that happens. No, the nukes are a bartering tool, and anti-invasion card. Iran is willing to do some very questionable things but I in no way think they're suicidal. Any proof that they are (enough to warrant an invasion and start another war?)

Hmmm...

Well, we've already heard here in these threads that the crazy Christian right is apparently trying to insure there's a confrontation so that we can bring on the last days. I guess I'm humored - if not offended - that the leader of Iran is simply trying to find a way to bring balance to the region.

I'm not trying to sound disrespectful, but if we are seriously doubting that he (or anyone) will use a nuke, why do we even bother talking about them? If they are just to keep everything cool, why don't we just hand them out like candy? My guess is because we've already seen them used before and there's nothing to say that in the wrong hands (and in the wrong form) that they might not be used again. I am not the brightest bulb (no need to agree) but I think a lot of people would agree that Iran is not a nation that is sounding peaceful, sane, or trustworthy in the world community. Doesn't mean they will do anything rash.....but if the Christians are crazy enough to apparently be seeking out this final prophecy, why not them?

-Dave

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: Aaron747
Posted 2012-09-18 03:48:17 and read 2667 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 27):
However, if GWB is supposedly crazy enough to lead us into a war against Muslims, why would A...however you spell his name be any less eager or willing to do the same?

Not really his call, for starters. He is a powerless figurehead.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-09-18 15:53:12 and read 2565 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 30):
I'm not trying to sound disrespectful, but if we are seriously doubting that he (or anyone) will use a nuke, why do we even bother talking about them? If they are just to keep everything cool, why don't we just hand them out like candy?

Don't get me wrong, I really wish they don't get nukes. Nothing good can come of it. I'm asking is it worth invading and getting in another war? Definite war, carnage, and $$$$$$ vs the almost 0% chance (IMO) they'd actually use them (unprovoked?)

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: seb146
Posted 2012-09-18 20:17:21 and read 2528 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 32):
Don't get me wrong, I really wish they don't get nukes.

They are well on their way, according to some.

My problem is: with all the sabre rattling going on, it is the current leadership of Isreal that frightens me more. As badly as Iran wants to use force against Isreal, I think Isreal would strike first with their current crop of leaders. Both countries are loose cannons. Leadership of one is just slightly worse than the other.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-09-18 21:06:04 and read 2521 times.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 33):

I honestly think they are waiting for the election and hoping for Romney to win. It's looking pretty grim, but for the past few months (and even now, barely) I think he has a fighting chance. If/when President Obama wins, I think they'll still try and persuade him to strike but will definitely have a plan B.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-09-18 22:06:17 and read 2517 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 30):
I'm not trying to sound disrespectful, but if we are seriously doubting that he (or anyone) will use a nuke, why do we even bother talking about them? If they are just to keep everything cool, why don't we just hand them out like candy?

Because they are destabilizing in a region that is already short on stability.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: pvjin
Posted 2012-09-18 22:18:36 and read 2514 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Sorry, but this week's events display for all to see the ineptitude of the current administration in a tactical sense (crisis management) and strategically in the fact that the whole muslim world seems to think expressing hatred for the US and killing Americans they can get their hands on is a wonderful idea, 3 years after Obama's Cairo speech.

Even though I understand that your geography knowledge is very limited because of bad state of US education still I would like to inform you that Egypt, Libya and few other Arab / Middle Eastern countries are not whole Muslim world. There are still Indonesia, Bangladesh, Turkey and many other more more stable and rational countries.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-09-18 22:58:32 and read 2506 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 36):
Even though I understand that your geography knowledge is very limited because of bad state of US education

Best not to stereotype. He may be greatly overstating the extent of hatred for the US in the Muslim world, but Dreadnought's geography knowledge is pretty sound.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: Flighty
Posted 2012-09-18 23:08:42 and read 2502 times.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Where does this guy get this stuff?

Ryan is trying to inflame religious zealots and others who believe war in the ME region is part of God's ultimate plan. True security can be achieved in the region using a zero tolerance, absolute force policy. Of course, such a policy results in hundreds of thousands of people being hurt or almost certainly killed. Many people in US politics are actively lobbying to increase American violence in the region. Ryan and Netanyahu are speaking very clearly to that.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-09-18 23:39:52 and read 2499 times.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 33):
My problem is: with all the sabre rattling going on, it is the current leadership of Isreal that frightens me more.

Me too, especially after reading this article.
I smell a war ?

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/refere...le/n/benjamin_netanyahu/index.html

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 34):
If/when President Obama wins, I think they'll still try and persuade him to strike but will definitely have a plan B.

Bibi's trying, ever so hard, but it appears Obama wont be moved, and a good thing to. The US needs another war operation like a hole in the head.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 38):
Ryan and Netanyahu are speaking very clearly to that.

Well then lets hope Obama can keep them both in check !

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-09-19 00:08:28 and read 2488 times.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 31):
Not really his call, for starters. He is a powerless figurehead

Well, I was pretty sure that Bush didn't unilaterally invade Iraq. It seems to me that congress, for starters, had a say in it. Sort of made him a powerless figurehead of sorts.

-Dave

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: daviation
Posted 2012-09-19 13:06:37 and read 2400 times.

I think one of the main fears is for Iran to distribute its nuclear technology and wares - in the form of limited dirty bombs - to groups like Al-Queda, Hamas, Hezbollah, which are not only dedicated to Israel's destruction, but many other targets in the West. It's doubtful that Iran would launch a state-sponsored nuclear attack on Israel. Of course, that's easy for me to say in New Jersey. If I were living in Tel Aviv, I'd be pretty well terrified of their intentions.

Let's hope Iran doesn't become another North Korea. They have no problem attacking South Korea with conventional weapons, and use their technology to blackmail S Korea, Japan, and the US for food and other relief.

For all of Netanyahu's bluster, he's not going to launch any wars. He'd love to launch a limited operation to take out Iran's nukes, but it seems to be impossible without US assistance. The Israelis I know don't want a war, but they are justifiably terrified to be surrounded by enemies. Somehow they just get on with their lives. Rest assured, if Israel didn't have nukes (which they will never use unless they're down to the last man or woman), there wouldn't be an Israel. That would probably make some people happy, although I hope most humans would disagree.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-09-19 14:31:53 and read 2382 times.

Quoting daviation (Reply 41):
I think one of the main fears is for Iran to distribute its nuclear technology and wares - in the form of limited dirty bombs - to groups like Al-Queda, Hamas, Hezbollah, which are not only dedicated to Israel's destruction, but many other targets in the West. It's doubtful that Iran would launch a state-sponsored nuclear attack on Israel. Of course, that's easy for me to say in New Jersey. If I were living in Tel Aviv, I'd be pretty well terrified of their intentions.

I used to think that too but honestly, if a radiological or nuclear attack was carried out by any terrorist group, few would doubt it came from Iran; Israel, the US, and at that point, many other countries would invade, bomb, or support an ugly war against Iran in some way, shape, or form. I think Iran knows that too and wouldn't do anything that stupid. They get away with a lot but if they supplied WMDs, Iran would not last long (IMO)

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: Flighty
Posted 2012-09-19 14:49:20 and read 2372 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 42):
I used to think that too but honestly, if a radiological or nuclear attack was carried out by any terrorist group, few would doubt it came from Iran; Israel, the US, and at that point, many other countries would invade, bomb, or support an ugly war against Iran in some way, shape, or form. I think Iran knows that too and wouldn't do anything that stupid. They get away with a lot but if they supplied WMDs, Iran would not last long (IMO)

The other side of the coin is, for Israel and the USA to just bomb them pre-emptively is an act of war. In war, defense is Iran's right. I believe Iran's fundamentalists want Israel to attack. Then, Iran isn't an aggressor, but a _defender_ of sovereign territory. Netanyahu is actually Iran fundamentalism's great idol. He is key to the ugly fantasy of the Arab world retaliating against Israel's invasion, destroying it.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-09-19 15:08:26 and read 2371 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 43):
The other side of the coin is, for Israel and the USA to just bomb them pre-emptively is an act of war. In war, defense is Iran's right. I believe Iran's fundamentalists want Israel to attack. Then, Iran isn't an aggressor, but a _defender_ of sovereign territory. Netanyahu is actually Iran fundamentalism's great idol. He is key to the ugly fantasy of the Arab world retaliating against Israel's invasion, destroying it.

And I agree. I can actually see why the Iranian government is paranoid, even if a disagree with them

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-09-22 12:52:30 and read 2230 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
Makes you wonder how Bibi has let his friendship with Romney distort his relations with the current President.

Because Bibi is determined on one thing.

More than twenty years ago, Bibi was advocating "the Jordanian Option" - whereby all Palestinians were kicked out of the West Bank and sent to Jordan.

Leopards don't change their spot and settlements are just part of that process. History repeats itself.

mariner

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2012-09-22 17:04:10 and read 2183 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 36):
Even though I understand that your geography knowledge is very limited because of bad state of US education still I would like to inform you that Egypt, Libya and few other Arab / Middle Eastern countries are not whole Muslim world. There are still Indonesia, Bangladesh, Turkey and many other more more stable and rational countries.

Even though I understand that your brain may suffer freeze-ups from your climate, but that is no reason to be an arrogant paskapää.

As it happens I have been to every one of those countries you mentioned (with the exception of Indonesia), and would point out that there have been recent protests (some violent) in almost every one of them in the past 2 weeks. For example:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-33816_16...-bangladesh-over-anti-muslim-film/

And Turkey? I spend a lot of time in Turkey in the 90s, and it's not the same country anymore. It used to be moderate. But now the Turkish PM wants the UN to declare that 'Islamaphobia' to be a crime against humanity.

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-2925...zed-as-crime-against-humanity.html

Really? We should take lessons in respect and tolerance from a country that refuses to admit one of the greatest genocides ever, and from a religion that does not appear to know the meaning of either respect or tolerance?

Since to hail from Finland, let's take it as an illustration. Finland, in my experience, is basically a welcoming and friendly country. There is probably some racism, but far less than in many countries - most likely because you have a tiny population, and even a tinier foreign-born population (only less than 1% of which are from Arabic or Muslim countries). It's easy to be high and mighty and criticize other nations for being intolerant when you don't have nearly the same level of contact with minorities. We've seen that in other parts of Europe. I guarantee you that if Finland were to rapidly grow to 30 or 40% minorities (of the visible kind - blacks, hijaabs etc) you would see a shocking increase in 'racism' - just like we've seen in France, Britain, and other European countries which went from failrly homogeneous culture to a multicultural one in a few decades. There will be pushback, no matter how enlightened you think you are now.

From what I recall of my visits to Finland (we had a factory in Turku), the creeping intolerance in Finland now is not racism. It is the view that if you don’t rigorously promote a certain ideology then you need to be publicly attacked and ostracised or even worse. It is the same intolerance that led, for example, to Prof. Tatu Vanhanen (the former Finnish Prime Minister’s father) being ‘investigated’ (basically intimidated into shutting up, because he was never prosecuted) for publishing an academic book on IQ and race and reporting his findings to the Finnish newspapers. Such intolerance is pervasive in other nations around the world as well (except in Muslim countries).

But one day civilized nations are going to have to come to grips with the idea that tolerating intolerance, and granting respect to those who won't respect you in return, is a recipe for suicide.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: seb146
Posted 2012-09-22 21:22:02 and read 2160 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 46):
one day civilized nations are going to have to come to grips with the idea that tolerating intolerance, and granting respect to those who won't respect you in return, is a recipe for suicide.

Except... no... Look at England and Canada. They respect tolerance. Problem with the United States is: not every state respects tolerance.

In PDX, there were Jewish synagogues near a mosque near a church near a school. No one cared. No bombings, no killings. No one cared. We all lived together and worshiped as we wanted. Not because of how it was legislated but because we are all humans sharing the same small third rock from the sun.

Civilized nations understand this. Respect this. Unfortunalty, places like Texas and Afghanistan don't get it.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: pvjin
Posted 2012-09-23 02:37:00 and read 2125 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 46):

Well still it's not like majority of the people would have been protesting in those countries, just small minority.

And about immigration to Europe, I don't think that Islam is the problem but big differences between social and cultural norms. As long as immigrants follow the law and respect their new home country & want to become part of its society and work I have nothing against them. Unfortunately many do fail to do this, and I think they should be just be exported to their original home countries... In here most of our Muslim immigrants are from Somalia and they seem to have very high unemployment and other problems with adjusting to our society, and I find harsh cultural and social differences together with lack of education to cause these problems.

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: ImperialEagle
Posted 2012-09-23 05:05:18 and read 2101 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 46):
But now the Turkish PM wants the UN to declare that 'Islamaphobia' to be a crime against humanity.

The hipocracy of this is sickening. Every day in Muslim nations the schools are teaching anti-semitism in the worst and most vile forms. The Muslim media in every form does the same thing. Jews are portrrayed as evil, blood-thirsty, baby killers and rodents, and all kinds of other vile things----------------but, thats o.k. because the Muslims sanction that.

Yet, if someone else exercises their right to free speech and somehow offends the Muslim world-----then is o.k. to run amok and murder, rape, pillage and plunder, set fire to innocent peoples homes, businesses and other property, etc.
RIDICULOUS!  
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 46):
But one day civilized nations are going to have to come to grips with the idea that tolerating intolerance, and granting respect to those who won't respect you in return, is a recipe for suicide.

   Since 9/11 there have been over 19 THOUSAND Muslim terrorist attacks around the world. The number continues to grow daily. But nobody wants to face that. The media, especially here in the U.S. is scared to death. You hardly hear of any of this because the media is afraid they will start some kind of jihad against themselves. The government is scared as well. Better to apologize to them and kiss their a$$. These people act like savages, not civilized people. Even the Jew-haters can't seem to come up with an example of tens of thousands of Jews run amok, murdering, raping and pillaging. Jews dragging an Ambassador out into the street and viciously murdering him? Get real. Unless provoked, Jewish people are a civilized people.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 43):
I believe Iran's fundamentalists want Israel to attack. Then, Iran isn't an aggressor, but a _defender_ of sovereign territory. Netanyahu is actually Iran fundamentalism's great idol. He is key to the ugly fantasy of the Arab world retaliating against Israel's invasion, destroying it.

   Oh yeah. That's the kind of game they would like to play. They spew all the hate speech and threaten the inhillation of Israel and when Israel is forced to defend itself Iran will play "the Victim card". I can see that.

Quoting daviation (Reply 41):
Let's hope Iran doesn't become another North Korea

It's too late. They pretty much already are. They have been in bed with each other too long.

Quoting daviation (Reply 41):
if Israel didn't have nukes (which they will never use unless they're down to the last man or woman), there wouldn't be an Israel. That would probably make some people happy, although I hope most humans would disagree.

   There are millions of haters the world over who would like to see every Jew on the planet murdered. It is the hate that never dies. Jews are used to it. Don't like it-----mind you----just used to it. Can you imagine having to go through life with that hanging over you?

Topic: RE: Paul Ryan: Obama Contempt For Israel?
Username: pvjin
Posted 2012-09-23 06:00:38 and read 2089 times.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 49):
The hipocracy of this is sickening. Every day in Muslim nations the schools are teaching anti-semitism in the worst and most vile forms. The Muslim media in every form does the same thing. Jews are portrrayed as evil, blood-thirsty, baby killers and rodents, and all kinds of other vile things----------------but, thats o.k. because the Muslims sanction that.

And in Jewish schools Muslims are bashed the same way... Also Israel was formed by Zionist terrorism against British who were holding that territory before. For most of its history Israel has been Muslim land until Zionists came and started ethnic cleansing by discriminating its original Muslim population, using over 2000 years old book as an excuse.

Without support from United States Jewish ruled Israel would collapse just in a few years anyway. And why do Jews need their own country? There are loads of other ethnicities that have lived in one area for many hundreds of years and yet don't have their own state, so why would a group of people who have lived in one area for less than 100 years need their own?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 49):
Since 9/11 there have been over 19 THOUSAND Muslim terrorist attacks around the world. The number continues to grow daily. But nobody wants to face that. The media, especially here in the U.S. is scared to death.

It's really not about religion but politics. US has been messing around in these countries where these terrorists mostly come from and destroyed so many lives that it's only natural for someone striking back.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 49):
It's too late. They pretty much already are. They have been in bed with each other too long.

From what I have seen and heard average guy from Iran doesn't hate west and isn't completely brainwashed like people in North korea are. I think US is more like North Korea, so many people there only watch FOX news and other wetern rubbish media and never question things they see or even try to go and look things from different perspective.

[Edited 2012-09-23 06:04:24]

[Edited 2012-09-23 06:05:42]

And yeah unfortunately a lot of discrimination against all Jews out there just because of Actions of evil Israeli government and army.


[Edited 2012-09-23 06:08:03]


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