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Topic: Late Filing Of 2011 Tax Returns
Username: Airstud
Posted 2012-11-17 18:37:59 and read 1446 times.

As I understand it, the April 15 due date for paying your federal taxes is really only a deadline as far as taxes owed, that if you owe zilch or have a refund coming, you can file the forms after April 15.

If that's true, how long after the 15th? Any time till December 31st? Into the next year even?

Also, does anyone know if the same holds true for overpaid state tax - given, say, a random specific example of - I don't know... Minnesota?

Topic: RE: Late Filing Of 2011 Tax Returns
Username: cs03
Posted 2012-11-17 18:48:06 and read 1446 times.

File by 4/15 to get refund quickly, and to file later you need to file for extension (form 4868) If you owe IRS money the sooner the better, as the interest clock starts ticking at 4/15.

Topic: RE: Late Filing Of 2011 Tax Returns
Username: fr8mech
Posted 2012-11-17 19:51:23 and read 1446 times.

You must fill out an extension request form. This gives you another 3 months to file. If you suspect you owe any money, you can pay an estimated amount when you file the extension. This avoids you having to pay interest. The extension must be filed by April 15.

Topic: RE: Late Filing Of 2011 Tax Returns
Username: Airstud
Posted 2012-11-17 21:00:49 and read 1446 times.

So if you had money coming, but did not file for an extension, you're SOL, eh?

[Edited 2012-11-17 21:11:55]

Topic: RE: Late Filing Of 2011 Tax Returns
Username: tugger
Posted 2012-11-17 21:10:51 and read 1446 times.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 3):
Thanks, but I'm talking about when you don't owe anything. If a person did a quick once-over of the forms on the night of April 14th, noticed the IRS owed him about four dollars, and that the state he lived in (which for our hypothetical example we have randomly selected Minnesota) owed him a couple hundred - can he still file the forms later in the year and get the refund. Or file the forms later in the year and at least avoid Leavenworth.

Yes. If yuo owe nothing and have in essence paid more to the gub'ment than needed, there is no financial penalty and no loss of potential refund. I don't know for states but most give several years to claim back owed refunds. I do recommend that you just send the returns in.

Tugg

Topic: RE: Late Filing Of 2011 Tax Returns
Username: rwessel
Posted 2012-11-18 01:11:51 and read 1446 times.

Quoting Airstud (Thread starter):
As I understand it, the April 15 due date for paying your federal taxes is really only a deadline as far as taxes owed, that if you owe zilch or have a refund coming, you can file the forms after April 15.

If that's true, how long after the 15th? Any time till December 31st? Into the next year even?

An 4868 gets you a six month extension, with little or no hassle, although there are a few limitations and or special conditions that might apply - see the form.

You are still required to pay any tax owed by April 15th (or whatever the date is - last year it was the 18th, IIRC). If you do not, you are subject to both a late payment penalty, *and* interest on the amount owed. You may include a check with the 4868. It's usually in your interest to overpay a bit (and get a refund later), rather than underpay and get hit with the penalties.

The 4868 has to be filed in a timely fashion (IOW, April 15th), not to mention that the six month extension period for 2011 is over now anyway.

And mind you the rules on when you have to get your taxes paid are actually rather stricter than "by April 15th". Unless you're hitting the safe harbor provisions, or having all your taxes paid as payroll withholding, you pretty much have to pay a substantial portion of your taxes in a timely fashion after you earn the money being taxed. IOW, if you earned $100K in one year, and were expecting to send the IRS a $30K check for the entire tax due for that year the following April 15th, you will be very unhappy with the nasty letter the IRS will be sending you - you would generally have been obligated to make estimated tax payments throughout that year (again subject to the safe harbor rules). This can get a bit tricky, so talk to your accountant.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 3):
So if you had money coming, but did not file for an extension, you're SOL, eh?

No, you'd still get any refund due to you when you get around to filing your return, but you will likely be hit with late filing penalty, which the IRS will happily deduct from your refund.

Topic: RE: Late Filing Of 2011 Tax Returns
Username: tugger
Posted 2012-11-18 01:33:47 and read 1446 times.

Are people missing the important part of the asked question?

Quoting Airstud (Thread starter):
if you owe zilch or have a refund coming

Per the IRS:

Quote:
There are no regulations covering an extension of time to file employment tax returns. Therefore, these returns do not qualify for an extension of time to file. However, no penalty for filing late is asserted if the taxpayer paid (i.e., via Federal tax deposits, etc.) 100 percent of the tax required to be paid on or before the due date for payment.
http://www.irs.gov/irm/part20/irm_20-001-002.html

I don't know enough to answer on the state portion of the question, however the key element is the same: The taxes are already paid in full!

And since penalties and interest would be calculated on the amount owed, if no amount is owed....

And just to make sure, I am speaking of an individual (not a business or partnership, etc) that has already paid all required taxes and so owes nothing else (and may even be due a refund).

Tugg

Topic: RE: Late Filing Of 2011 Tax Returns
Username: varigb707
Posted 2012-11-18 03:40:21 and read 1446 times.

Quoting Airstud (Thread starter):
how long after the 15th

If you get you W2 around Jan or Feb, do it right away. If you have a refund coming, you'll get it quickly. The closer you get to Apr 15, the longer it'll get to have you tax taken care from the IRS end.

Topic: RE: Late Filing Of 2011 Tax Returns
Username: IMissPiedmont
Posted 2012-11-18 08:15:32 and read 1446 times.

You never have to file a tax return if you are owed money, you will not be sent to prison for not doing so, even if you do owe money (unless it's fraud) and if you owe money file as late as possible.

But, if you are getting a large refund you have to ask yourself one question. Why am I such a sucker? The government doesn't give you an interest free loan, why should you give them one?

Topic: RE: Late Filing Of 2011 Tax Returns
Username: rwessel
Posted 2012-11-18 23:18:53 and read 1446 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
Per the IRS:

Quote:
There are no regulations covering an extension of time to file employment tax returns. Therefore, these returns do not qualify for an extension of time to file. However, no penalty for filing late is asserted if the taxpayer paid (i.e., via Federal tax deposits, etc.) 100 percent of the tax required to be paid on or before the due date for payment.
http://www.irs.gov/irm/part20/irm_20....html

No, no, no! Your personal *income* tax return (aka the iconic 1040 or 1040-EZ) is *not* an *employment* tax return. You might file such a thing personally if you were self employed (possibly a 1040-SS), in addition to the normal returns. The section you're quoting does not apply.

Read 20.1.2.2.7, and specifically subsection .4:

"20.1.2.2.7.4 (04-19-2011)
Minimum Penalty
1.If the return is 60 days or more late, a minimum penalty applies:

•For returns due (without regard to extensions) after 12/31/2008, the minimum penalty is the lesser of $135 or 100 percent of the tax required to be shown on the return that was not paid on or before the due date (without regard to extensions).

•For returns due (without regard to extensions) before 1/1/2009, the minimum penalty is the lesser of $100 or 100 percent of the tax required to be shown on the return that was not paid on or before the due date (without regard to extensions).

2.The minimum penalty applies only to income tax returns. It does not apply to employment tax, excise tax, gift tax, or estate tax returns."

Note that this is *not* the only penalty the IRS might assess, but if you've avoided any appearance of fraud, and don't actually owe them money, is probably the main thing that applies.

Also note that we’re quoting the IRS procedures handbook, not the actual regs themselves.

Note: free legal advice worth every penny paid.

Topic: RE: Late Filing Of 2011 Tax Returns
Username: Airstud
Posted 2012-11-19 00:10:36 and read 1446 times.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 9):

No, no, no! Your personal *income* tax return (aka the iconic 1040 or 1040-EZ) is *not* an *employment* tax return. You might file such a thing personally if you were self employed (possibly a 1040-SS), in addition to the normal returns. The section you're quoting does not apply.

Thank you for that important clarification, rwessel.

I went to the IRS website and examined those sections of the Internal Revenue Manual - from what I gather, it still seems that any penalties assessed are based on the amount of tax owed. So, if a person owed zilch (or, as established at the start of our hypothetical example, was actually owed about four dollars)... then no penalty, eh?

Guess I'm kinda driving the topic into the ground.

(Of course, there are stories of the IRS aggressively trying to collect from deceased people.)

Topic: RE: Late Filing Of 2011 Tax Returns
Username: tugger
Posted 2012-11-19 00:59:13 and read 1446 times.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 9):
No, no, no! Your personal *income* tax return (aka the iconic 1040 or 1040-EZ) is *not* an *employment* tax return. You might file such a thing personally if you were self employed (possibly a 1040-SS), in addition to the normal returns. The section you're quoting does not apply.

While I wasn't exact in the particular IRS section I quoted/noted I had read in various places that this is the case. And it is, even is the section you quoted:

Quoting rwessel (Reply 9):
Read 20.1.2.2.7, and specifically subsection .4:

"20.1.2.2.7.4 (04-19-2011)
Minimum Penalty
1.If the return is 60 days or more late, a minimum penalty applies:

•For returns due (without regard to extensions) after 12/31/2008, the minimum penalty is the lesser of $135 or 100 percent of the tax required to be shown on the return that was not paid on or before the due date (without regard to extensions).

•For returns due (without regard to extensions) before 1/1/2009, the minimum penalty is the lesser of $100 or 100 percent of the tax required to be shown on the return that was not paid on or before the due date (without regard to extensions).

2.The minimum penalty applies only to income tax returns. It does not apply to employment tax, excise tax, gift tax, or estate tax returns."

Note that this is *not* the only penalty the IRS might assess, but if you've avoided any appearance of fraud, and don't actually owe them money, is probably the main thing that applies.

Also note that we're quoting the IRS procedures handbook, not the actual regs themselves.

Note: free legal advice worth every penny paid.

In what you quoted above the "minimum penalty' is the lesser of $100/$135 or 100% of the tax owed (the tax that is shown on the form and that was not paid). That statement means that if no tax is owed then the "penalty" would be zero or the lesser of the two options.

And yes, I otherwise agree with you that skilled advice should be sought.  
Quoting Airstud (Reply 10):
Thank you for that important clarification, rwessel.

I went to the IRS website and examined those sections of the Internal Revenue Manual - from what I gather, it still seems that any penalties assessed are based on the amount of tax owed. So, if a person owed zilch (or, as established at the start of our hypothetical example, was actually owed about four dollars)... then no penalty, eh?

Guess I'm kinda driving the topic into the ground.

From everything I read as well I agree with this. Penalizing someone that has paid their taxes is contrary to the purpose of getting people to file when they need it in order to pay their taxes.

But rwessel is 100% right in this:

Quoting rwessel (Reply 9):
Note: free legal advice worth every penny paid.

 

Get some qualified advice from an appropriately certified expert (and no not a mall store front, temp-hire, hourly employee that just wants to file your return.....). Good luck!

Tugg


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