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Topic: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Birdwatching
Posted 2012-11-15 14:00:37 and read 5122 times.

I know things have been going up and down for years, but I'm seriously alarmed now. Today rockets hit Tel Aviv for the first time in ages, and it looks like Israel is preparing a massive attack or even invasion of Gaza, mobilizing thousands of troops.
I have a bad feeling about this.
Are we on the eve of the war that we hoped would never erupt, right now?

Soren

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-15 14:09:12 and read 5126 times.

Well it's been nearly 4 years since the last excursion to Gaza... Lebanon in Aug 2006, Gaza in Dec 2008, Gaza in Nov 2012 now?

I can only hope it's not going to happen and both sides lay down the weapons. And I do mean *both* sides. No excursion into neighbouring lands that end up killing a 13-year old boy and afterwards playing "nobody knows why the amount of incoming rockets went up again, oh let's kill one of their leaders - that will surely calm the situation down". Same goes for the other side too ... no "oh it's boring, let's lob a few rockets to the north and see what happens".

Take two to tango, and two to fight ^^

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-15 14:54:13 and read 5125 times.

I don't know, Israel has been at the brink of war many times. I don't think a few rockets are gonna trigger anything drastic. Not trying to sound insensitive, but just trying to look at the huge picture.

Kinda off topic, but did anyone see the supposed twitter war between the IDF and Hamas?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: swissy
Posted 2012-11-15 15:44:04 and read 5123 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 1):
Take two to tango, and two to fight

How true... still cant believe the bs is going on... man we are n 2012!!
  

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: flanker
Posted 2012-11-15 16:51:01 and read 5123 times.

If the shelling continues, yes there will be war again.




Here are two articles to go along with this thread..


Hamas missile launch pad next to mosque, playground.

http://kleinonline.wnd.com/2012/11/1...lso-half-a-block-from-fajr-5-site/



Miraculous Recovery by Injured Gaza Man?

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162130#.UKWM9ofSJ2r

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2012-11-15 17:16:02 and read 5126 times.

I guess an election is in the offing.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: tz757300
Posted 2012-11-15 17:32:32 and read 5126 times.

Well both countries are filled with terrorists that hate each other so it's only bound to happen again.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-15 17:43:53 and read 5126 times.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 5):
I guess an election is in the offing.

Too right, bestwestern. The (early) election is due on January 22nd., and this most recent attack on Gaza amounts to Netanyahu killing people in the interests of keeping an election promise:-

"Kicking off his re-election campaign, Netanyahu focused in his speech on tough measures he had taken to improve security for Israelis, such as building a fence along the border with Egypt’s Sinai, and deploying a missile shield against rockets fired from Gaza.

"Alluding to past threats to attack Iran to stop it from building a nuclear bomb, something Tehran denies, Netanyahu said Israel now had new unspecified “capabilities to act against Iran and its satellites (allied militants in Gaza and Lebanon), capabilities we didn’t have in the past”."


http://www.france24.com/en/20121016-...rity-january-likud-polls-bibi-iran

The same 'political tactic' has been used before five out of the last seven elections:-

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=292035

[Edited 2012-11-15 18:04:29]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: thediplomat
Posted 2012-11-15 19:12:03 and read 5123 times.

Quoting flanker (Reply 4):
Here are two articles to go along with this thread..

Hardly unbiased sources?

Israelnationalnews - ah that old chestnut of rightwing zionism that even the Israeli government wont give a broadcasting licence to.

Aaron Klein - the person who wrote a book called "The Manchurian President: Barack Obama's Ties to Communists, Socialists and Other Anti-American Extremists"

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
The same 'political tactic' has been used before five out of the last seven elections:-

I assume that the Israeli population are mature enough to see through this blatant election engineering.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Acheron
Posted 2012-11-15 19:23:31 and read 5125 times.

Quoting thediplomat (Reply 8):
I assume that the Israeli population are mature enough to see through this blatant election engineering.

Panem et circenses but at the expense of other human beings.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-15 19:23:52 and read 5127 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 1):
I can only hope it's not going to happen and both sides lay down the weapons. And I do mean *both* sides.

This crap is getting old, and I honestly think that it's going to jeopardize many more nations than just Israel. I.e., if the US continues to support it as it is doing, we are going to have some serious issues. At the same time, we cannot back out and let Hamas/Iran bomb the living crap out of innocent people. Nor can we let Israel do that.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-15 19:31:52 and read 5123 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
Kinda off topic, but did anyone see the supposed twitter war between the IDF and Hamas?

No, haven't seen that, but its been reported here in OZ. that YouTube took down the video posted by the IDF, as it was flagged inappropriate by many users, and appropriately so, IMHO.

YouTube itself, said that the video breached its terms (see link) and took the video down, however, it appears that someone/body/organization, probably the IDF wanted it back up, so miraculously its back up, funny that  http://www.examiner.com/article/isra...st-banned-then-restored-by-youtube

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
Israel has been at the brink of war many times.

And Israelis call Arabs warmongers...... wheres that mirror again ?

Quoting flanker (Reply 4):
Here are two articles to go along with this thread..

Could you have possibly provided a more biased source  
Quoting flanker (Reply 4):
Hamas missile launch pad next to mosque, playground.

Oh wait, doctored pics. Reminds me of all the BS pics, that got us all involved in Iraq, pleas, let us not go there again !

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 5):
I guess an election is in the offing.

Yeah, there's nothing like a war at election time... way to go Bibi

And as per usual, our beloved PM Gillard and opposition leader Abbott have come out in total unquestioning support for Israel, yawn.   

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...acks-on-israel-20121116-29fx8.html

Is it any wonder, that Israel courts over seas political leaders, with sponsored, all expenses paid trips to Israel, just to see the "otherside" of things..... yeah right, lets buy and bribe support if we cant get it the legit way. Shocking.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
The (early) election is due on January 22nd., and this most recent attack on Gaza amounts to Netanyahu killing people in the interests of keeping an election promise:-

Nav20, do you think he's got the balls (Bibi) to take this to the Iranians, that should be interesting indeed. ??????

Quoting thediplomat (Reply 8):
I assume that the Israeli population are mature enough to see through this blatant election engineering.

I'd like to think so, but I don't have as much faith in the Israeli electorate as you may have. I think they will vote him back in, so on and on it will go unfortunately.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
Nor can we let Israel do that.

Agreed, but your Government is as bad as ours when it comes to blindly supporting Israel at the expense of Palestinians, time and time again.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
if the US continues to support it as it is doing, we are going to have some serious issues.

"We are" or "you already have"

[Edited 2012-11-15 19:33:21]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: iFlyLOTs
Posted 2012-11-15 19:49:37 and read 5122 times.

To be totally honest, Hamas doesn't scare me as much as Syria.. What happens if near the Golan Heights a battle breaks out and more stuff is shot across the DMZ.. I don't see Israel just holding back like they and Turkey so far have, and the UN can only do so much up there.. Could we see Israel invade to intervene? (I'm not saying in the whole Syrian conflict just in the area that is next to the Golan Heights)

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: pellegrine
Posted 2012-11-15 20:12:40 and read 5124 times.

I'm feeling a tad gleeful about this.

Israel needs to get it together and play nice in the sandbox. The only thing that makes them realize this is pain in the equivalency that they deal out to the Palestinians.

Just because your big, bad, and bold doesn't mean you deserve the right to live in peace.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-15 22:23:56 and read 5122 times.

Quoting thediplomat (Reply 8):
I assume that the Israeli population are mature enough to see through this blatant election engineering.

All the signs so far are, thediplomat, that if anything Netanyahu has profited by the attack. I think we have to face the fact that more than half of the Israeli voting public are in favour of frequent 'Gaza-bashing.'

"The cynical view that the two men's decision to suddenly escalate the warfare in Gaza is connected to their political considerations is not unwarranted. Barak especially will be eager to demonstrate to Israeli voters that they still need his steady hands on the security reins - so they had better make sure that his party, Atzmaut, crosses the electoral threshold on January 22. He made sure during their brief joint statement on television tonight to wear his combat gear, a severe black leather jacket.

"Netanyahu has less need of a warlord demonstration since he is all but ensured a third term, but unless something goes spectacularly wrong he also stands to gain. At the very least, none of his rivals will be able to attack over the next few days."


http://www.haaretz.com/news/israeli-...-hurricane-jabari.premium-1.477891

The 'unknown factor' is that Egypt recently (by means of a popular vote) elected a prime minister with Islamist leanings. Up to now Egypt has always provided humanitarian aid and contact with the outside world to the unfortunate Gazans, but has sought also to maintain diplomatic contact with Israel. That may well change soon:-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...-11e2-a30e-5ca76eeec857_story.html

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
Nav20, do you think he's got the balls (Bibi) to take this to the Iranians, that should be interesting indeed. ??????

Israel has nukes and has up to now received 100% political and military support from the USA. In those circumstances, much as I expect Iran to go on 'disapproving' of Israel's behaviour, there is no way it can even think about any direct (i.e. military) involvement over Gaza or any other part of what is left of Palestine. The 'Gaza Strip,' as it used to be called, is little more than a prison camp, the West Bank and East Jerusalem are in much the same situation; and even Palestinians living in 'Israel proper' don't have anything like equal rights.

As far as I'm concerned the only solution to the problem is for Israel to end all forms of religious discrimination and work towards the federation of the whole of what we used to call 'Palestine' into a single federated state, with equal rights for all.

But I'll let everyone know if that ever looks like happening. There'll be sure signs of it. For a start, I'm sure I'll see pigs flying over Melbourne the moment Israel (and the USA) ever even LOOK like getting sensible about this bloody (I use the word advisedly) mess.......

[Edited 2012-11-15 22:28:37]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-15 23:32:41 and read 5122 times.

Quoting swissy (Reply 3):
How true... still cant believe the bs is going on... man we are n 2012!!

yes, but only one of the two lives in the 21st century.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: raffik
Posted 2012-11-16 01:57:42 and read 5123 times.

Quoting flanker (Reply 4):

If the shelling continues, yes there will be war again.

That goes for both sides, Flanker.

Quoting thediplomat (Reply 8):
Quoting flanker (Reply 4):
Here are two articles to go along with this thread..

Hardly unbiased sources?

Lol- I had to chuckle. It was completely biased drivel.

Wasn't this sparked because Israel assassinated a member of Hamas? As soon as I heard it on the radio I KNEW that this would incite some reaction. You can't go around assassinating members of the Palestinian government (who were elected) without upsetting what was already a very fragile peace.

I can not foresee any peace between Israel and Palestinian- certainly not in my life time, and I'm only 30.
Since the 1940s the two entities have been at war and since then, nothing has changed. Actually, things have improved for the state of Israel but for Palestinians, they haven't had a very nice existence. This in turn creates upset, especially with the Israeli settlements mushrooming on what even Israel deemed as Palestinian land. And the Israeli's don't stop the settlements. You know, Israel is not a small country- there is room to build your camp elsewhere.
Why incite upset by illegally setting up home on someone else's land? It's like history repeating itself!

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: ImperialEagle
Posted 2012-11-16 02:12:33 and read 5125 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
'Gaza-bashing.'

Seriously??!!!

Over 700 rockets fired into Israel to date this year, FROM GAZA, close to 300 of them yesterday!!!!!!!!

Any other country would have considered that an Act of War long ago.

I hope Israel does the same thing the King of Jordan did with them back in 1970 and wipes them out! They deserve it!
Push them into Egypt. They deserve it. And take back Gaza and NEVER give it up again! They deserve it.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-16 02:46:53 and read 5126 times.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 17):
Over 700 rockets fired into Israel to date this year, FROM GAZA, close to 300 of them yesterday!!!!!!!!

The amount of illegal settlements built by Palestinians in 2012: 0.
The amount of illegal settlements built by Israelis in 2012? You don't need me to quote the exact numbers or?

The amount of target killings of Israeli political figures commited by Palestinians in 2012: 0.
The amount of target killings of Palestinian political figures commited by Israelis in 2012? ....

Goes both ways. No matter how biased we all are (and we all carry some bias with us) - the picture is clear - both sides are guilty for the situation, and both sides are continuing the path towards peace (mhm) carrying giant clubs in their hands.

Read a nice article in the JPost today - 5 out of the last 7 general elections in Israel were preceded by military action (either Gaza, Syria or Lebanon).

I can not assess the truthfulness of this article: http://www.timesofisrael.com/jabari-...israeli-who-negotiated-with-hamas/ but if true it could provide some food for thought.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-16 02:50:19 and read 5123 times.

Quoting raffik (Reply 16):
Wasn't this sparked because Israel assassinated a member of Hamas?

No, there was first a missile attack from Gaza to Israel. The Palestinians in Gaza always request this, they send invitations and then complain that Israel fires back. Any country n the world would do that.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: pellegrine
Posted 2012-11-16 02:51:01 and read 5125 times.

Part of this has to do with Obama being re-elected as well.

Netanyahu has to show a big d*** in his hand to counteract the perceived notion that US Democrats are softer on Arab aggression than Republican hard-liners are.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-16 03:04:45 and read 5126 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
No, there was first a missile attack from Gaza to Israel. The Palestinians in Gaza always request this, they send invitations and then complain that Israel fires back. Any country n the world would do that.

why did you just change what you originally wrote ?

That the Palestinians were basically from the dark ages ?

And now you come out with this drivel

Try " Israeli Land grabs" and see if that rinds any bells for ya !

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-16 03:17:55 and read 5125 times.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
That the Palestinians were basically from the dark ages ?

not generalizing the Palestinians, but the Hamas terrorists certainly are, like any other religion driven terrorists.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
Try " Israeli Land grabs" and see if that rinds any bells for ya !

Israel gave back all of the Sinai, they moved out of Gaza completely. I wish Hamas would learm that peaceful co-existance would be far better for Gaza, especially for the people there, but that would ruin their business case.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: raffik
Posted 2012-11-16 03:18:38 and read 5125 times.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 17):
I hope Israel does the same thing the King of Jordan did with them back in 1970 and wipes them out! They deserve it!

That is actually quite an evil thing to say. Do you mean wipe the Palestinian nation out ? Like Hiter did to the Jews in the 1940s? Or wipe out a nationally elected government which was elected in a democratic process? I think you should shed some light on that, because if you do mean wipe out a whole nation of people, you are a sick man indeed.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 17):
Push them into Egypt. They deserve it. And take back Gaza and NEVER give it up again! They deserve it.

Again, I am really shocked at your aggression here. You do realise that pre 1940s this was Palestinian land?
That Israel didn't actually really exist? It has been the Israeli's who have stolen Palestinian land, not the other way round.
Why do you have so much hatred here? I will tell you what the Palestinians "deserve"- they deserve a piece of land that is their's. Just imagine is the Cubans came to your town armed with guns and forced you into Canada and said, right, we now declare this our new home. And robbed your homes and shops and made you homeless. Finally relenting, they give you a quarter of your town back to live in but then bombed your power stations and your airport and destroyed any chance of an economy. Then these Cubans decided that it wasn't enough, they actually started building their homes on your part of town until you were left with not much. And when somebody resists and tries to fight back, they bulldoze your homes, with your kids inside and your wife etc. And then fire massive missiles into your part of town. And you are stuck. No one comes to help.

Quoting pellegrine (Reply 20):
perceived notion that US Democrats are softer on Arab aggression

But why do they not care about Israeli aggression directed towards Arabs (i.e the Palestinians or the Lebanese)?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-16 03:22:50 and read 5125 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
No, there was first a missile attack from Gaza to Israel. The Palestinians in Gaza always request this, they send invitations and then complain that Israel fires back. Any country n the world would do that.

Technically these sorts of tit-for-tat exchanges are hard to explain or determine who started them - since in this case "who started it" depends on how far back you look. If you look a week back then it was Hamas who started it - if you look two weeks back then it was Israel who started it - so a definite answer is very hard to find.

Generally speaking this latest clash started between Nov 5th and Nov 8th. On Nov 5th a Palestinian was shot on the Palestinian side of the fence on the border of Gaza and Israel (I've heard reports labelling him having learning difficulties, but with Hamas' PR I wouldn't necessarily believe it). Also on that day an IED exploded injuring 4 Israeli soldiers. On Nov 8th IDF soldiers entered the Gaza Strip after finding several bomb near the border fence - this ultimately resulted in the death of a 13 year old (read also that he might've been 12 years old). Well from Nov 9th on Palestinians stepped up the rocket attacks (also attacking an IDF vehicle on the Israeli side and injuring 4 soldiers (1 critically IIRC)) and the rest is known. Hard to call who started it unless you specify the cutoff date for the "started it" determination.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-16 03:25:50 and read 5275 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
Israel gave back all of the Sinai, they moved out of Gaza completely. I wish Hamas would learm that peaceful co-existance would be far better for Gaza, especially for the people there, but that would ruin their business case.

But how do you give back someone something if it wasn't yours in the first place?

I'll join your wish and also add that Israel needs to learn the same - peaceful coexistence and striving for an honest dialogue for peace. Which would benefit both normal Israelis and Palestinians. As it is at the moment only the hawks on both sides are benefitting.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-16 03:28:06 and read 5265 times.

Quoting pellegrine (Reply 20):
Part of this has to do with Obama being re-elected as well.

Didn't consider that but thinking about it, you may be right. This would have been a major issue before the US Presidentials elections.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-16 03:35:14 and read 5355 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 25):
But how do you give back someone something if it wasn't yours in the first place?

This kind of thinking is Kindergarten. It waqsn't property of the palestinians, who were nomads, either.

Quoting damirc (Reply 25):
I'll join your wish and also add that Israel needs to learn the same - peaceful coexistence

That's what the majority of the Israelis, who live in a prosperous country and enjoy , unlike their neighbours, democracy, want as well.

But as the old proverb says, you cannot live in peace if your neighbour don't let you.

As long as it is Hamas doctrine to send the last Israeli into the Mediterranean sea they have to take that serious. The jewish people didn't take someone serious in the 1920s, the history is known.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-16 03:50:24 and read 5342 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
This kind of thinking is Kindergarten. It waqsn't property of the palestinians, who were nomads, either.

Well they've lived on it. There are deeds in Istanbul that proves some of their ownership you know. But even those deeds are invalidated by some courts in a land with a Magen Davd on it's flag. It does however stand in court that a dead person can sell his property to a group of settlers that then proceed to build on the said land.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
That's what the majority of the Israelis, who live in a prosperous country and enjoy , unlike their neighbours, democracy, want as well.

Well. Hard being prosperous when you live in a giant refugee camp (Gaza strip), are cut off from international trade and have every material allowed in rationed (if it is allowed in in the first place). Good luck being prosperous with those limitations.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
As long as it is Hamas doctrine to send the last Israeli into the Mediterranean sea they have to take that serious. The jewish people didn't take someone serious in the 1920s, the history is known.

PanHAM, I agree that Hamas is a negative influence on the Palestinians. I do agree with the fact that they've made, are making and will be making mistakes. But I also claim that Israel is not working towards peace (maybe to the uninformed public) but rather towards total annexation of Gaza and the West Bank. Now tell me - with that in mind, how do you suggest the Palestinians fight back to keep their land? Israeli courts do tend to be fair (with some weird decisions as stated in the first paragraph of my reply), but they take money and you need to be allowed to get into Israel (which I'm certain you're aware not all of Palestinians are) to reach said courts. And even if you are successful the IDF may declare the ground in question strategically important and you can forget it (and the settlers move in).

You need to understand these people are losing hope. And when hope is lost you do not chose your methods to fight back. I'm just reading a book about the uprising in Treblinka, and it's worth noting that the uprising happened only when all hope was lost, and when all of the Jews in Treblinka realized what their final destination is. You do fight back in what ever way possible once you lose all hope. This has been repeating itself countless times in human history.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-16 03:53:55 and read 5349 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
This kind of thinking is Kindergarten. It waqsn't property of the palestinians, who were nomads, either.

Sorry, PanHAM, that's a crazy statement. Palestine and its cities have existed for over 2,000 years.

Come to that - Jesus Christ was a Palestinian........

A crowd of Europeans, mostly if not all people of the Jewish faith, took most of the place over by military force in the late 1940s, driving out the traditional occupants and taking their homes and land without compensation.

In essence, the Palestinians (who took no part in WW2) were dispossessed and either killed, or mercilessly driven out of their homes and ancestral lands, because of what the German Nazis did to the European Jews. And the Western Allies just 'let it happen'........

It was, and remains, a monstrous injustice.

[Edited 2012-11-16 04:03:21]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-16 04:06:56 and read 5353 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 29):
Come to that - Jesus Christ was a Palestinian........

But he was born Jewish   Which illustrates that there are people of three religions living in Israel and Palestine - 2000 years ago they were of only one faith, but then they've split apart and now they fight who owns the place ... slightly crazy.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-16 04:10:17 and read 5349 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 28):
Well. Hard being prosperous when you live in a giant refugee camp (Gaza strip), are cut off from international trade and have every material allowed in rationed (if it is allowed in in the first place). Good luck being prosperous with those limitations.

I can't hear this anymore. Sixty years and longer in a refugee camp? Who except some illiterate ....buys that crap?

What do you think Europe would be today if German "refugees" from the eastern provinces like Prussia, Silesia etc. would still live in refugee camps? Shooting missiles to Poland?

Don't you realize that these are manipulable masses in the hands of terror lords?

Israel is a fact and Palestinians have to accept that fact. They have to jump over that stick and accept reality. Would be good for them and the whole region. They could finally start participating in the wealth that is generated in Israel. No Palstinian with Israeli citizenship would trade that for Gaza or West Bank,

But as I said, the Hamas and other organisations would lose their business case and some people could not fill their private coffers anymore.

The average Palestinian has to understand that not Israel is his enemy but their own "politicians".

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-16 04:24:06 and read 5349 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 30):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 29):
Come to that - Jesus Christ was a Palestinian........

But he was born Jewish

Good one, damirc.  

Only thing is, being Jewish is a religion, last I heard. Not in any sense a nationality?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-11-16 04:32:15 and read 5349 times.

Only thing I see resolved at this stage is the claim made months ago and debunked as laughlable by many that there were missiles in Gaza capable of reaching Tel Aviv, however, that is really not important at this point in time.

The issues are well known, the positions of both sides ane their supporters are well known, so not much I can add to the discourse.

Its hard when religion is a significant factor in the case to use a religious phrase, but my prayers are with all concerned.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-16 04:44:38 and read 5346 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 29):
because of what the German Nazis did to the European Jews.

And not just Germans but others in Poland, Lithuania, Croatia, etc.

After WW2 my mother worked with displaced persons, including many who were Jewish. Many could not return to where they can previously lived and could not stay where they were. The vast majority of those who wished to emigrate stated the USA as their first choice. Only a handful had any desire to go to Palestine. But by and large, even countries sympathetic to the plight of Jewish survivors imposed limits on immigration. Sure, they all had problems enough but it was the fact that they were either unable or unwilling to accept large scale Jewish migration that led many refugees to see Palestine as an option and even then the majority did not do so until after the creation of Israel.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
The average Palestinian has to understand that not Israel is his enemy but their own "politicians".

So why is it that in the West Bank, which is not ruled by Hamas, that the majority of the continuing dispossession of Palestinians is taking place. Even in the Negev, where most Israelis would rather not live, the people who have lived their for centuries are being cleared out, ostensibly to provide them with better education, blah, blah. Tell a Palestinian mother who sees her house being bulldozed in front of her children that Israel is her friend when they allow thugs to trample their olive trees while the IDF looks on and will only intervene to protect the "settlers".

Even the most right wing, pro-Israel newspapers in the West have carried reports on these happenings. But at least they are very generous. They will allow for a Two State solution in which all of the West Bank goes to Israel on the grounds of needing "defensible borders" and a Palestinian State is carved out of Jordan. In other words, they are not serious about wanting any two state solution. But a One State solution in which everyone is equal would spell the end of Israel. So what remains? The Gaza Ghetto, Iron Curtains and from there?

For the record, Hamas has on a number of occasions stated that they will agree to a settlement based on the 1967 borders (with some minor land swaps) but on condition that Palestinians have the right of return (something that Jews who haven't even been to Israel have) and that East Jerusalem be the capital of a Palestinian state. Israel has rejected both conditions out of hand.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 32):
Only thing is, being Jewish is a religion, last I heard. Not in any sense a nationality?

I think that you will find many who would disagree with that view, including non-religious Jews. Throughout history, at least in Europe, when Jews converted to Christianity they often continued to be viewed with suspicion as they were still considered as not really being "part of us". The nazis certainly based their hatred on notions of race, describing Jews as "Nichtarier" and "Untermenschen", and not as infidels. And the whole basis of Zionism rests on the identification of Jews as being a "people" and not as followers of a particular religion.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-16 07:35:10 and read 5333 times.

Does anyone really care any more, outside of Israel/Palestine? Would anyone in the US honestly lift a finger for either side after our experiences in other areas in the region?

Quoting par13del (Reply 33):
The issues are well known, the positions of both sides ane their supporters are well known, so not much I can add to the discourse.

   There's nothing new here. Neither side wants to back down, so have at it.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-16 07:48:10 and read 5338 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
Does anyone really care any more, outside of Israel/Palestine?

Honestly, yes, millions of Americans care. It is my opinion that the issue is often one sided so Israel does not receive the criticism it often warrants. Plus there is the whole notion that Iran wants to / will nuke the US and Israel is our #1 ally to stop them


And I want to throw something out (that I am sure will get ignored,) NO ONE is defending the Palestinians launching rockets and killing civilians. If anyone condones that, please, tell me. What many are saying is Israel is not perfect, 2 wrongs don't make a right, they have a right to defend themselves but they're going about it the wrong way, Israel should be the better person, etc. There are a plethora of reasons.

Either that or the world is full of anti-Semites that are ok with rockets killing innocent Israelis. Really, does that sound like the truth, or do you think there is a more sensible explanation? If you said the former, well, I've got a tin foil hat for you...

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: EDKA
Posted 2012-11-16 08:12:09 and read 5330 times.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
And as per usual, our beloved PM Gillard and opposition leader Abbott have come out in total unquestioning support for Israel, yawn

along with many other western governments... you choose to support a terrorist group, thats your call.

Quoting raffik (Reply 16):
Wasn't this sparked because Israel assassinated a member of Hamas

no i wasn't. this round was sparked by the missile fired to the army jeep which was patrolling the border and then many misiles were fired into Israel. apparently the Israeli government sent a warning to Hamas, which was ignored, then followed Djabari assassination

Quoting raffik (Reply 16):
Actually, things have improved for the state of Israel but for Palestinians, they haven't had a very nice existence

and how much of this is Palestinians' own fault?

Quoting raffik (Reply 23):
You do realise that pre 1940s this was Palestinian land?
That Israel didn't actually really exist? It has been the Israeli's who have stolen Palestinian land, not the other way round.

there was no country called Palestine, it was just piece of land without any borders

Quoting raffik (Reply 23):
I will tell you what the Palestinians "deserve"- they deserve a piece of land that is their's.

yes they do, but electing and supporting Hamas is not the way to go about it...






I am in the south of Israel as i type this, and i have been in and our of shelters for the last 48 hours. The sirens are constant and there are hundreds of rockets coming in the last couple of days. One exploded close enough to the building i was in for the walls to shake. There are over million people (excluding Tel Aviv area) that are in range of missile strikes... Any country would defend the lives of their citizens, and its only because of the shelters system here, there are not more civilian casualties.

right now i am struggling to find any sympathy for the Palestinians.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-16 09:52:38 and read 5323 times.

Idiots beating at each other is the only thing that comes to my mind here. I´m tired of it. Will this go on forever and both sides will keep dragging the world into their conflict forever? After such a long time of unwise beating maybe the right idea is that the outside world turns its back finally to that local conflict if both sides are not becoming any wiser than testosterone-led adolesents.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-16 09:58:15 and read 5330 times.

Quoting EDKA (Reply 37):
there was no country called Palestine, it was just piece of land without any borders

No, but there were people living there who owned the land that they lived on. They were disposessed and then displaced. History won't help any Palestinian or Israeli tonight when rockets keep on flying.

The map here: http://domino.un.org/maps/m0094.jpg

D.

[Edited 2012-11-16 10:08:33]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Acheron
Posted 2012-11-16 11:24:26 and read 5322 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
It is my opinion that the issue is often one sided so Israel does not receive the criticism it often warrants.

Hard to do when any and all criticism is switfly neutralized with a "you sound like an antisemite".

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: SOBHI51
Posted 2012-11-16 11:59:25 and read 5318 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
This kind of thinking is Kindergarten. It waqsn't property of the palestinians, who were nomads, either.

PanHam did you ever heard or knew of nomads issuing there own currency or coins?
http://attendingtheworld.wordpress.c.../04/10/currency-of-1927-palestine/

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-16 12:01:37 and read 5324 times.

Quoting na (Reply 39):
Idiots beating at each other is the only thing that comes to my mind here. I´m tired of it

  

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
Honestly, yes, millions of Americans care.

I don't think it moves the dial anymore with voters. The Republicans are the biggest supporters of Israel and they just got shellacked, and the Jewish voters are all Democrats . Go fig.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):

Either that or the world is full of anti-Semites that are ok with rockets killing innocent Israelis.

Israel has done nothing to make the situation better. They just build more settlements and push people with nothing to lose farther, and sure enough, the same thing that happened last time happens again, and down the rabbit hole we go again.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: casinterest
Posted 2012-11-16 12:07:53 and read 5317 times.

Newsflash: Missiles and Bombs still hurt and kill people. Israel and Hamas do not play nice: Sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Same ol, Same ol.

What I am more concerned with is how and where the long range missiles that Hamas is using are coming from. I think Egypt and Iran are going to have some explaining to do.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-16 12:12:42 and read 5319 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):

Either that or the world is full of anti-Semites that are ok with rockets killing innocent Israelis.

Israel has done nothing to make the situation better. They just build more settlements and push people with nothing to lose farther, and sure enough, the same thing that happened last time happens again, and down the rabbit hole we go again.

Oh I know. I was just poking fun at the fact that if you somewhat disagree with Israel, that makes you a Nazi or something

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: pvjin
Posted 2012-11-16 12:30:49 and read 5315 times.

Yeah yeah, I wonder if they will ever manage to make peace. Everything around there would be so much easier if Jerusalem wasn't so important to three major religions or alternatively if humans weren't so incredibly stupid.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-16 12:41:37 and read 5316 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
I can't hear this anymore. Sixty years and longer in a refugee camp? Who except some illiterate ....buys that crap?

Didn't actually see this before - sorry, illiterate? Refugee camps - as in camps that are housing people that were made refugees on their own land. Would you call that incorrect?

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-16 12:46:46 and read 5326 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
I don't think it moves the dial anymore with voters. The Republicans are the biggest supporters of Israel and they just got shellacked, and the Jewish voters are all Democrats . Go fig.

It's all perfectly explainable. The American support from Israel has little to do with the Jewish vote or the disproportionately large influence of Jewish Americans on society, business, and politics. It's all the religious right. The support comes from the evangelical Christians who believe that the Jews need to be restored to the Holy Land for Jesus to return. Those are the people rooting for Israel, most Jewish people outside of the right wingers, quite a few of whom probably emigrated anyway, are much more aware of the situation than what the American media provides and do not practice unconditional support for the Israelis.

At this point, I think that the political climate is such that the Israeli government can do whatever they wish with the Palestinians, up to and including extermination, without meaningful consequences and retribution from the international community and have the American right waving pom-poms the whole way.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-16 13:07:18 and read 5317 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
It's all the religious right

I definitely understand that, but they just had their religious arse handed to them in this election, and it only gets worse for them from here on out. I just wonder who is really going to stick their neck out for either side this time. They've become like Lindsay Lohan--sure the first time we were all worried what happened to this cute young actress, but now we don't even flinch when she drives into a pole 

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-16 17:38:09 and read 5299 times.

Quoting EDKA (Reply 37):
there was no country called Palestine, it was just piece of land without any borders

Not 'getting at you,' EDKA, but I find that statement fascinating. I see that you're relatively young, and you are staying in, or live in, Israel. If you really have been 'indoctrinated' into a belief that no place called 'Palestine' ever existed, that explains a lot. Particularly why young Jewish people (who I'm sure are normally no more bloodthirsty than the young people of other religions) often seem so ready to kill Palestinians; they apparently think of the Palestinians as 'interlopers' in a place that, in their minds, belongs to the Jews.

Trying to keep it simple - if you read up in the Old Testament about the Jews fleeing from Egypt to what is now called Israel (from childhood, I've always tended to call it the Holy Land), you'll find that one of the peoples they had to fight and largely drive out, as soon as they arrived in the area, were the 'Philistines.' If you then venture into the New Testament, you'll find that at the time of Christ's execution (in about 33AD., as far as anyone knows) the area was under Roman rule, and they called their colony 'Philistia.' Come to that, any etymologist will tell you that 'Jerusalem' is basically an Arabic word, not a Hebrew one; as, indeed, are most of the town names in what is currently 'Israel.' Moving on to modern times, 'Palestine' at the time of the First World War was a Turkish colony; and after that war, it was occupied by the British under a League of Nations mandate - and they unhesitatingly referred to it throughout that occupation as 'Palestine,' right up to their withdrawal in 1948.

As far as I can see, therefore, the whole of what is now called 'Israel,' from Biblical times right up to the present day, most definitely was, and arguably still IS, 'a country called Palestine'; and it was, and still is, being lived in by people from at least three religions - Muslim, Jewish, and Christian (put them in whatever order you like).

And my personal view is that the only thing that will sort the place out, and eventually end the conflict, will be the adoption of the system of government followed by most if not all civilised countries worldwide; freedom of religion and a secular, democratic government that ensures equal rights for all, regardless of which particular religion they happen to profess and follow.

[Edited 2012-11-16 17:59:56]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2012-11-16 19:26:35 and read 5296 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 50):
if you read up in the Old Testament about the Jews
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 32):
Only thing is, being Jewish is a religion, last I heard. Not in any sense a nationality?

Genesis 32:28 - Jacob (the grandson of Abraham and "father" of the Jewish nation) was renamed Israel by God (funnily enough for fighting with God.... they still havent learned!!!!)   The Jews thereafter were often known as the children of Israel through the Old Testament. They were referred to as Jews again by the New Testament.

Not that it has anything to do with 2012, but thought you would be interested in that as a history buff and explains why it is such a confused mess over there because the Jewish nation think of themselves as Gods special chosen race - based on his promise to Abraham ~4000 years ago!!!!!  

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-16 20:03:03 and read 5279 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 51):
because the Jewish nation think of themselves as Gods special chosen race - based on his promise to Abraham ~4000 years ago!!!!!

Cheers, YVRLTN!

Except that - taking off my history hat and putting on my legal one - I guess we should say 'his alleged promise to Abraham'.........   - there's no 'hard evidence'........

On a more serious note - put like that, it seems utterly crazy for a group of European refugees to start dispossessing, and even killing, people for nothing but a piece of real estate, back in 1948 - and to still be doing it, half a century later, on such (non-existent) evidence.

As far as I'm concerned, Israel is a 'rogue state' and should be treated as such by the rest of the world.

[Edited 2012-11-16 20:04:51]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-16 21:32:22 and read 5265 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 52):
As far as I'm concerned, Israel is a 'rogue state' and should be treated as such by the rest of the world.

Well, I do believe that they do have a right to exist. Just that those rights end at the '67 borders and they will need to work on restitution for the Palestinians and finally start playing fair. But I will admit that I'm afraid that Israel will not exist in a hundred years time if they continue treading on the path that they're on at the moment. And frankly with everything that has happened to the Jews, that would be very bad indeed.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Cadet985
Posted 2012-11-16 21:43:06 and read 5265 times.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 17):
Seriously??!!!

Over 700 rockets fired into Israel to date this year, FROM GAZA, close to 300 of them yesterday!!!!!!!!

Any other country would have considered that an Act of War long ago.

I hope Israel does the same thing the King of Jordan did with them back in 1970 and wipes them out! They deserve it!
Push them into Egypt. They deserve it. And take back Gaza and NEVER give it up again! They deserve it.

I say take back Gaza, build a wall at the Gaza border with Egypt, and warn that anyone trying to tunnel under, break through, or climb over it, be shot on site without any warnings. It's been seen time and time again that the people in Gaza are not capable of electing a government, so get rid of them all, and let them be Egypt's problem.

Marc (who is scheduled to go to Israel in less then a month)

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: EDKA
Posted 2012-11-16 22:45:43 and read 5259 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 50):
Not 'getting at you,' EDKA, but I find that statement fascinating. I see that you're relatively young, and you are staying in, or live in, Israel. If you really have been 'indoctrinated' into a belief that no place called 'Palestine' ever existed, that explains a lot. Particularly why young Jewish people (who I'm sure are normally no more bloodthirsty than the young people of other religions) often seem so ready to kill Palestinians; they apparently think of the Palestinians as 'interlopers' in a place that, in their minds, belongs to the Jews.

Well, to be precise i never said there was "no place called Palestine" - check my original post.

I said that the there was no country called Palestine, and that it correct. The "place" you are referring to, is the "piece of land" that i mentioned in my post, so we are talking about the same thing, in terms of reference to an area.

But if you want to talk about Palestinian identity i am sure that you will agree that there was no such thing 100 years ago. There were either Palestinian Arabs, Jews or Christians who lived in Palestine....And yes, Palestine was just piece of land that belonged to the anyone who conquered it at any given time.


Saying that, i do believe that Palestinians today deserve their own state and place of their own...

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: flanker
Posted 2012-11-16 23:49:53 and read 5259 times.

There are reports now that rockets are being fired from Egypt into Israel.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Flighty
Posted 2012-11-17 03:30:21 and read 5256 times.

Israel wants what the USA has... mil superiority not only within borders, but for a substantial range beyond. Nobody would sit in Mexico and lob rockets into US cities. That would be ridiculously dumb. They would be dead within hours.

The problem is that Israel's moment in history is different. They are not the USA. Obama does not support their hawkish viewpoint at all. It is time for Israel to understand their own situation better. The present attitude of exceptionalism vs. their neighbors is not going to work long term.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2012-11-17 04:03:07 and read 5253 times.

As is the pattern of wars over the last 50+ years there, you got to know that this new war will drag in the rest of the world. It will mean the price of oil will go up. The Palestinians will lose and have incentive to do terror acts against Israel, Europe and the USA meaning much more intrusive 'security' when flying and in our daily lives. The militant leaders of Israel will have short-term gains in their political positions. One has to believe that Hamas/Hezbollah forces are getting help from Iran and groups in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries and we know Israel gets far too much in their war machine from the USA government and their mainly Christian supporters in the USA.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-17 05:31:28 and read 5253 times.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 54):
I say take back Gaza, build a wall at the Gaza border with Egypt, and warn that anyone trying to tunnel under, break through, or climb over it, be shot on site without any warnings.

Cadet985, I think you should check the relevant arithmetic. The Gaza Strip is roughly 25 miles long, and, on average, about 6 miles wide, giving it a total land area of only about 135 square miles. It looks tiny on the map, and indeed it is tiny. The problem is, though, that its population is around 1.72 million people; almost certainly the highest population density in the world. That's a measure of how many Palestinians have already been driven out of their ancestral homes in the southern part of Palestine by Israeli soldiers and settlers.

So if you are recommending some sort of 'final solution,' driving the population out, the first question you'll have to answer is who is going to do the job of herding them across the nearest border (presumably into Egypt)? The Israeli government appears to be mobilising something over 100,000 soldiers for the forthcoming attack; that won't be nearly enough to do the job.

And even if, by some miracle, the 'driving out' operation succeeded, who would pay for the resettlement of getting on for another two million refugees? Egypt wouldn't be disposed to do it, and you can bet your life that Israel wouldn't either. So one can expect that the long-suffering United States would have to foot most if not all of the bill.

How much are you personally prepared to pay, by way of extra taxes over the next ten years or so, to pay for the consequences of Israel's (only too likely) next venture into the fields of genocide, deprivation, religious prejudice, and oppression?

[Edited 2012-11-17 05:33:36]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: babybus
Posted 2012-11-17 05:37:52 and read 5251 times.

The BBC will be pleased. This will keep them in copy for a long time. I think it's the only news casting service outside Israel that focuses almost exclusively on Israeli affairs above all other news.

Bring on the weeping journalists and the special programmes.

It's 2012. War should be a thing of the past. What's wrong with sitting round tables and sorting problems out?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: vc10
Posted 2012-11-17 06:05:11 and read 5247 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 61):
The problem is, though, that its population is around 1.72 million people; almost certainly the highest population density in the world

Just to be the devil's advocate I do not think that statement is true as London with a population 8,174,000 and a land area of 607 sq miles has a population density 13,466 per sq mile

Gaza with a population of 1,720,000 and a land area of 135 sq miles has a population density of 12,740 per sq mile

Anyway carry on with the discussion just being picky

littlevc10

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2012-11-17 06:16:58 and read 5258 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
It's all perfectly explainable. The American support from Israel has little to do with the Jewish vote or the disproportionately large influence of Jewish Americans on society, business, and politics. It's all the religious right. The support comes from the evangelical Christians who believe that the Jews need to be restored to the Holy Land for Jesus to return.

You are overgeneralizing. I have nothing to do with evangelicals, but I fully support Israel, having spent some time in that part of the world (on the Arab side - I've never been to Israel). I also think that it should be within the 1967 borders, but until the Palestinians show that they can act in a civilized manner, which so far they have not, I have no problem with Israel kicking the snot out of them whenever they start throwing bombs.

Quoting babybus (Reply 62):
It's 2012. War should be a thing of the past.


Wow. Talk about a Kumbayah mentality.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: something
Posted 2012-11-17 06:47:50 and read 5241 times.

Quoting babybus (Reply 62):
It's 2012. War should be a thing of the past. What's wrong with sitting round tables and sorting problems out?

Discussions are usually based on arguments and facts. Religions, the core root of this problem, are not.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-17 07:16:05 and read 5239 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 64):
but until the Palestinians show that they can act in a civilized manner, which so far they have not

It may be constructive to look at a map of the area. Israel has, contrary to International Law, not only seized territory but dispossessed the inhabitants, forcing them into an ever decreasing area. They are building so-called security fences that are intended to completely encircle the remaining areas that have not been taken over by "settlers" or for military purposes. Israel is basically creating ghettos, just like Germany created ghettos in Warsaw and other cities. Very civilised behaviour, copied from the best that Europe had to offer. The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank is an authority in name only, very much like the Judenrat was the Authority in Warsaw, complete with its Jüdische Ghetto-Polizei.

This continuing forceful dispossession is a fact. Of course pro-Israeli media will justify such actions or simply ignore it. Meanwhile the people who are resisting dispossession are denounced as terrorists. Some Western leaders have half-heartedly (for the sake of appearances) appealed to Israel to halt the settlements but Netanyahu has approved their expansion, arguing the need for "living space" - where have I heard that term before? - and going further to reject negotiation on the basis of the 1967 borders as ridiculous because "it fails to accept the realities on the ground."

It seems clear that Israel and its supporters have no desire to see a Palestinian State. Even where the Israelis have discussed the idea (for the sake of appearances) they insist that any State would see Israel retaining control of its airspace and it would be demilitarised. In effect, Israel would continue to keep control. And as long as Israel has superiority of fire-power and the unconditional political and financial support of the United States the situation is unlikely to change. There is absolutely no imperative for Israel to yield anything. They are the stronger party and they know it.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-11-17 08:24:54 and read 5242 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 52):
On a more serious note - put like that, it seems utterly crazy for a group of European refugees to start dispossessing, and even killing, people for nothing but a piece of real estate, back in 1948 - and to still be doing it, half a century later, on such (non-existent) evidence.

Kind of like those English settlers who showed up in America and Australia and decided they should start dispossessing, and even killing, people for nothing but a piece of real estate.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 52):
As far as I'm concerned, Israel is a 'rogue state' and should be treated as such by the rest of the world.

US and Australia too?

Quoting damirc (Reply 53):
Just that those rights end at the '67 borders and they will need to work on restitution for the Palestinians and finally start playing fair.

It pretty much is an intractable problem for now.

Many aspects of the problem have been raised above.

One I didn't see discussed is that no Palestinian leader is going to be able to close a deal either. It's clear that whatever deal is proposed, there will be significant portions of the Palestinian population who think it isn't good enough, and probably with reasonable amounts of justification. It's also clear that the leaders got their jobs by way of their militancy, and if they make a peace deal they will in essence be eliminating their own job. It's hard to get a bunch of people to turn their swords into plowshares.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: imiakhtar
Posted 2012-11-17 08:54:57 and read 5238 times.

If you back an animal into a corner and treat it harshly, it will lash out.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2012-11-17 09:08:51 and read 5253 times.

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 72):

If you back an animal into a corner and treat it harshly, it will lash out.

At which point you have to shoot it.

Edit: I'm not recommending a course of action - just pointing out that such a simplistic solution (under the excuse of "being civilized") is no such thing.

[Edited 2012-11-17 09:10:35]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Viper911
Posted 2012-11-17 17:27:31 and read 5207 times.

Quoting raffik (Reply 16):
Wasn't this sparked because Israel assassinated a member of Hamas?

No, it was sparked because militant organisations from Gaza are firing rockets at Israel for a decade now, you don't see Israel killing Hamas members when the situation is stable.. But on a serious note, no other independent country on planet earth would stay quiet if its territories were constantly bombarded by home made rockets and mortars for over a decade, hell, some would consider this an act of war right away.. Are you kidding me?! Here are simple statistics, since 2001 when Hamas started launching rockets into Israel there were over 12500 attacks on Israel, over twelve thousand rockets launched into Israel, I'm sorry but blaming Israel is complete BS.

Viper911.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-17 17:41:40 and read 5208 times.

Quoting Viper911 (Reply 82):
I'm sorry but blaming Israel is complete BS.

Yes, firing rockets at civilians is completely unacceptable. But does that completely absolve the other side of guilt?

There's a little trend going on... both sides are quick to blame the other side and will accept no responsibility for their actions. Does anyone think that is a recipe for success? Does anyone think this situation is completely one sided?

I'm quick to condemn the Palestinians for launching rockets but that does not mean I'll give Israel a free pass on their wrongs...

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: n229nw
Posted 2012-11-17 19:46:23 and read 5203 times.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 17):
Over 700 rockets fired into Israel to date this year, FROM GAZA, close to 300 of them yesterday!!!!!!!!

Any other country would have considered that an Act of War long ago.

Yes, and any other country would also consider a foreign power assassinating their elected leaders an act of war too, but Israel does this with impunity to Palestinian leaders all the time too. Similarly, most governments would respond to a complete blockade of their country, or building settlements on their land, etc. etc., as acts of war.

Not making any excuses for Hamas rockets, but two sure are tangoing here...

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 17):

I hope Israel does the same thing the King of Jordan did with them back in 1970 and wipes them out! They deserve it!
Push them into Egypt. They deserve it. And take back Gaza and NEVER give it up again! They deserve it.

Oh...my...God. Let me guess, you are one of the first people to complain about Ahmadinejad saying that Israel must be wiped off the map or pushed into the sea, but you'll happily turn around and ask for a different whole people to be wiped out.

Quoting EDKA (Reply 55):
I said that the there was no country called Palestine, and that it correct. The "place" you are referring to, is the "piece of land" that i mentioned in my post, so we are talking about the same thing, in terms of reference to an area.

But if you want to talk about Palestinian identity i am sure that you will agree that there was no such thing 100 years ago. There were either Palestinian Arabs, Jews or Christians who lived in Palestine....And yes, Palestine was just piece of land that belonged to the anyone who conquered it at any given time.

Yes, every modern nation-state was not a country at one point. With 19th century nationalism most ethnic groups starting in Europe got the idea into their heads that they shared a common history/culture and should have their own state. There were tons of revolutions and wars because of this, basically until the present day. Zionism was an outgrowth of this idea, and the flip-side, so was Arab nationalism, and Palestinian nationalism. Objectively, there is no national group that is more "real" than any other, since every nation is formed by self-perception as an "imagined community" (to quote the scholar Benedict Anderson), and most of this imagining is also myth-making, in all cases. Point is, arguments about Palestine not having been a country in the modern sense or about Palestinians not being a real people are non-starters. Either all ethnic nations are nonsense or none are.


Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 76):
I hear the past being used as justification of what Israel should be doing a lot. "Well Israel wanted a peace treaty but all the Arab countries wanted them dead." Besides that being so broad and misleading, I don't think it describes the situation now. Israel is no longer the weak country fighting for survival--they are the dominant force in the reason, and their treatment of the Palestinians is unwarranted IMO

  


Israel also never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Since 2002 the Arab League has had a standing offer on the table for all Arab states to recognize Israel if they withdraw to the 1967 borders and deal with the Right to Return Issue. Rather than engaging with this plan and negotiating about the details (such as making sure the arrangements for right to return are practical and possible), Israel has simply completely ignored it while claiming that all the Arab nations want Israel destroyed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Acheron
Posted 2012-11-17 20:30:13 and read 5201 times.

Quoting Viper911 (Reply 68):
But on a serious note, no other independent country on planet earth would stay quiet if its territories were constantly bombarded by home made rockets and mortars for over a decade, hell, some would consider this an act of war right away.. Are you kidding me?

Colombia bombed Ecuador a few years ago, I don't remember Ecuador wiping Bogota out of the map.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-17 21:13:26 and read 5203 times.

"Speaking about the operation in Gaza – dubbed the "Pillar of Defence" – Israeli interior minister Eli Yishai said: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for 40 years."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/w...-israeli-bombs-pound-gaza.19448610

So now we know....... what an idiot for saying that...... 

I've been thinking until now that Israel will shortly launch a ground invasion. But now I'm not so sure. Most of us feel that the current campaign was started in the interests of winning 'election points' by showing how tough the present Israeli government is - and a ground invasion would presumably also please a lot of voters. There'd obviously be initial Israeli casualties, killed and wounded; but not nearly as many as on the Palestinian side - the Israeli public would probably accept that in the short term.

But the question has to be, what happens after that? Israel just doesn't have enough soldiers to occupy the whole of Gaza on any scale, and, in any case, any kind of longterm occupation, even of part of the Strip, would entail a smaller, but continuing, drain of casualties (given that the occupiers would be facing any number of 'irregulars'). And (again given the Israeli lack of numbers in terms of a full-scale occupation) it's also possible (even probable) that there'd still be some rockets coming over?

Bearing in mind that the election is still two months off, if the situation did turn out that way, it's very possible that the 'gloss would wear off' before voting takes place; and Netanyahu and Co. would get the blame for causing a steady stream of people killed or wounded, with no end in sight.........to their political cost.

I'm therefore 'in process' of changing my mind about the likelihood of a ground invasion. Recent press reports suggest that there is increasing talk of a possible ceasefire - and this article appears to suggest that Netanyahu is now in favour of one:-

"Israeli Prime Minister Banjamin Netanyahu told foreign leaders Saturday that he would agree to a ceasefire if Hamas agrees to stop rocket fire from Gaza."

http://rt.com/news/israel-gaza-war-truce-967/

The signs are also, though, that Hamas isn't keen on one so far. From the same article:-

"Meanwhile, Hamas also has doubts as to the feasibility of a ceasefire. Senior Hamas leader Mousa Abu Marzouk told the Maan Palestinian news agency that he does not expect a ceasefire soon. "There are many calls for a truce but it will not be soon," he said."

Just could be that Israel has 'a tiger by the tail.' Can't let go, but having increasing difficulty holding on too.........

What does everyone else think of the shape of any likely 'end-game' from now on?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-17 22:31:19 and read 5199 times.

Well the Israelis have been talking tough as they call up 75,000 reservists. Avigdor Lieberman warned of a "crushing response" to come.

"The only way we can achieve peace and security is to create real deterrence via a crushing response that will make sure they don't try to test us again," he said. "This isn't an all-out war but an operation with defined goals." If a ground invasion were authorised Israel would have to "see it through," he said. "This wasn't done during Operation Cast Lead [the 22-day war four years ago], which is why we failed to achieve our goal."

We would have to see it through. Cold and serious words that lead one to enquire what is actually meant by that phrase. Shooting anyone who comes out into the open? Wholesale arbitrary arrest and imprisonment?

While some Arab and Turkish diplomats have been trying to broker an agreement, Hamas says that any truce would be dependent on Israel agreeing to lift its long-term blockade of the territory and agree to end its policy of assassinations. Given a determination to "see it through", is it likely that Israel is willing to agree to either, let alone both?

In the meantime, Israel is reported to have carried out 950 air-strikes against Gaza, including a building that houses local Arab media. The building is also used by foreign media such as Germany's ARD, Italy's RAI and Kuwait. I doubt Frau Merkel ever thought of Germany's main broadcaster as being a 'terrorist organisation." Perhaps Israel does not want any hostile images to emerge when/ if it does decide on a full-scale invasion. They say the first victim in war is truth, so there is an imperative to control the flow of information.

[Edited 2012-11-17 22:40:37]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-17 22:40:14 and read 5198 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 72):
What does everyone else think of the shape of any likely 'end-game' from now on?

At this point I think it could be the end game if the Israelis want it to be. They could do whatever they wish to the Palestinian people and I doubt anyone would be willing or able to stop them.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-17 22:44:03 and read 5204 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 47):

Didn't actually see this before - sorry, illiterate? Refugee camps - as in camps that are housing people that were made refugees on their own land. Would you call that incorrect?

Yes. A society that is unwilling to integrate refugees into normal life for over 60 years now must ask itself what they are doing wrong.

If Germany had not integrated refugees from the eastern parts of Germany , and in the past decades many more ethnic Germans from Russian provinces, we would not have peace in Europe now. i wrote this here one or two days before a headline article appeared in WELT saying exactly that.

If we had been as stubborn and unwilling to accept facts, like some Palestiniaqn hardliners do, who keep the rest of their people as pawns in this game, we could have a situation where East and West Prussians and Silesians shoot missiles form refugee camps to Poland.

Instead, the lesson we have learned after 1945 was to make peace with all neighbours and Europe should play as a role model for the Middle East-.

The first step should be to acknowledge the existance of Israel and do away with all that crap like sending the last Israeli into the Mediterranean Sea.

Keeping refugee camps after more than 60 years is a bad joke and falls back on those who maintain this status quo to keep the hate mongering.

Again, I am not blaming all palestinians for that kind of thinking, but they should stand up against those hardliners who keep firing missiles against Israel. No one can blame the Israeli for firing back when the mouse gets violent again.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-11-17 23:30:03 and read 5201 times.

Quoting Viper911 (Reply 68):
Quoting raffik (Reply 16):
Wasn't this sparked because Israel assassinated a member of Hamas?

No, it was sparked because militant organisations from Gaza are firing rockets at Israel for a decade now, you don't see Israel killing Hamas members when the situation is stable..

The situation was as stable as could be expected when Israel assassinated Al-Jabari. In fact, someone who was involved with negotiating a cease-fire between Israel and Hamas has said that there was progress being made on that front when Al-Jabari was killed.

Now the situation is no longer stable.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-18 00:12:51 and read 5228 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 75):
Instead, the lesson we have learned after 1945 was to make peace with all neighbours and Europe should play as a role model for the Middle East-.

Being an occupied and divided country helped. I doubt that the US, Britain and France, let alone the USSR would have tolerated armed refugee camps lobbing missiles into Poland. And which Europe should play the role model? The Velvet Divorce of the Czech and Slovak Two State Model or the more explosive Yugoslav/ Balkan Wars Model?

But back on topic:

Both Hamas and the PLO have previously offered a negotiated settlement with Israel on the basis of the 1967 borders (with some land swaps). As pointed out, the right of return is one sticking point despite UN Resolution 194 (unsupported in the Security Council for obvious reasons). This is a point that Israel is unwilling to concede for the simple reason of demographics. A Jewish State in which Jews are no longer the majority is no longer a Jewish State. So Palestinians can not simply move "back to Israel" and integrate.

The question of integration seems straight forward until you look at it. In neighbouring countries refugees faced various restrictions. In Lebanon, for example, Palestinian refugees were confined to certain areas, barred from citizenship, had restrictions on employment and could not travel abroad. In Jordan the situation is more complex and depends on when a person fled to the East Bank or remained in the West Bank (which was part of Jordan from 1950 to 1967). Some are regarded as being Jordanian citizens while others are not and require work permits, can not attend university without permission and so on. So it is easy to say integrate but often there are barriers in the way.

Incidentally, I am not sure what people think of when they use the term "refugee camps". In many instances they are fully functional towns or cities with normal buildings that you might see anywhere else in the region. In 1948 onwards they may have started out as camps with tents and temporary accommodation but over time they have developed into superficially normal places.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-18 01:33:19 and read 5216 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 77):
This is a point that Israel is unwilling to concede for the simple reason of demographics. A Jewish State in which Jews are no longer the majority is no longer a Jewish State. So Palestinians can not simply move "back to Israel" and integrate.

Agree that the stated reason is 'simple,' Quokkas. But it's hardly seems to be a matter of 'demographics'? Surely it's 'straight' religious and/or racial prejudice?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: pvjin
Posted 2012-11-18 02:33:35 and read 5213 times.

According to news Israelis have now bombed also office building of local news station. Pretty typical from them, trying to kill news reporters so their war crimes wouldn't get so much publicity. I remember how during conflict between Lebanon and Israel they "accidentally" shot well known UN bunker location with artillery, killing several peacekeepers.

I hope all best to Palestinian freedom fighters.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-18 02:51:23 and read 5214 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 78):
Surely it's 'straight' religious and/or racial prejudice?

On the surface it seems so but given the history of persecution that Jewish people have suffered over centuries it is understandable that they would want a place to call their own.

If one accepts the basic premise for the creation of Israel that there was a need for and a right to a Jewish Homeland, then any such homeland would have to maintain a Jewish majority or pursue some sort of state which deprived a potential non-Jewish majority of equal status. In other words, over time a democratic state would cease to be Jewish both in its ethnic and in its religious composition. The Jewish population would become a minority. It is precisely for this reason that Palestinians had to be expelled in the first place. So yes, as the founders of Israel saw Jewish people as a people (nation if you will, not merely adherents of a particular religion) then it does come down to racial or ethnic demographics.

In my view a single state based on the standards that apply in other democratic states - separation of religion and state, universal suffrage and equal rights enjoyed by all citizens - could not be Jewish. Yet the room for a two state solution is diminishing to the point that any Palestinian State based on Gaza and the West Bank would be unviable. This is recognised by those in this forum and in the media who argue that the Palestinian State is or can be formed out of Jordan - ie. don't give up a single grain of sand currently occupied, let alone any water resources.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-18 03:38:01 and read 5213 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 80):
The Jewish population would become a minority. It is precisely for this reason that Palestinians had to be expelled in the first place.

Sorry, Quokkas, simply can't accept that. As you say, a complete population with a 2,000-year history (which took no part in WW2 or the Holocaust) being 'expelled' by force - without compensation of any kind. And, still worse, nearly two million of them being walled up in what you can only call a 'concentration camp' - Gaza........

I'm afraid that I see that as a monstrous injustice - a kind of 'second holocaust.' I'm getting on in years now, but I still hope to live long enough to see at least some measure of justice being granted to the unfortunate Palestinians.

And - sorry again - the whole idea of artificially maintaining some sort of 'Jewish majority' is, to me, straight racism; out of the same box as apartheid or the Nazi 'master-race' concept.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-11-18 04:27:38 and read 5209 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 76):
The situation was as stable as could be expected when Israel assassinated Al-Jabari.

I'm not sure I can accept the occasional daily rocket fired into Israel and the bomb dropped into Gaza as relatively stable, but I must be governed by the fact that I live in a country where such activity does not take place so will not judge based on my circumstances.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 78):
Agree that the stated reason is 'simple,' Quokkas. But it's hardly seems to be a matter of 'demographics'? Surely it's 'straight' religious and/or racial prejudice?

If what is posted below is also accurate, as we accepting that religious and racial prejudice is ok when practiced in Jordan, Lebanon and other countries not under the control of Israel?

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 77):
The question of integration seems straight forward until you look at it. In neighbouring countries refugees faced various restrictions. In Lebanon, for example, Palestinian refugees were confined to certain areas, barred from citizenship, had restrictions on employment and could not travel abroad. In Jordan the situation is more complex and depends on when a person fled to the East Bank or remained in the West Bank (which was part of Jordan from 1950 to 1967). Some are regarded as being Jordanian citizens while others are not and require work permits, can not attend university without permission and so on. So it is easy to say integrate but often there are barriers in the way.
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 80):
In my view a single state based on the standards that apply in other democratic states - separation of religion and state, universal suffrage and equal rights enjoyed by all citizens - could not be Jewish.

Why sinlge out Jewish, neither side can have a single state. Which non-Christian country in the region allows fully open Christian worship, Lebanon had a civil war a few decades ago and the Christian militias who were supported by Israel have been virtually wiped from the map. In Egypt Coptic Christians are now in a deep struggle, other faiths in the rest of the region are virtually non-existent, so how exactly can you even submit that a single state can work for two separate faiths which are not tolerant of each other?

If your proposal is that religion be removed from the political arena and laws and constitutions are established to protect each individual faith that works well on paper and appeals to those of us the East and West as an ideal solution which placates our sensitivities, now where and how exactly and with which people are you going to implement such a society in the middle east where the entire civilian and military population and legal systems are based on religion?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-18 04:27:56 and read 5212 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 81):
the whole idea of artificially maintaining some sort of 'Jewish majority' is, to me, straight racism;

Agreed. Please do not misunderstand.

I am not in any way supporting ethnic cleansing or genocide. But what I have described follows the logic of the Zionist argument. A Jewish State can only remain a Jewish State if Jews are in the majority. And if they can't retain that majority by having a higher birthrate or large scale immigration of diaspora Jews, then they are going to apply other means to achieve it. If they don't resort to forcing people to leave and they don't exterminate them, the only other option is to maintain a system of institutionalised discrimination in which non-Jews are second class citizens.

And despite the rhetoric, this is a position that enjoys the support of countries like the US, Britain and Australia. While no one ever asserts the right of Palestinians to defend themselves when their homes are bulldozed and their orchards uprooted, they all affirm Israel's right to defend itself. Further, when Mahmoud Abbas was trying to garner support for Palestine's bid for UN member status, the US insisted that Abbas "recognise Israel as a Jewish State" and still threatened to use its veto.

Even now, when Abbas is about to put forward a new bid - this time for non-member observer status - the US is threatening to cut of aid and Israel is doing the same. Again, leading Western European governments have also indicated that they will oppose the bid. In Israel itself, MK Yariv Levin (Likud), chairman of the Knesset’s House Committee, told reporters last week that he has a bill ready to be submitted for Knesset approval that authorises the complete incorporation of Judea and Samaria (the area we know as the West bank) as parts of Israel if Abbas goes ahead.

So much for peaceful negotiations, diplomacy and civilised behaviour.

[Edited 2012-11-18 04:46:10]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-18 05:22:11 and read 5213 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 82):
as we accepting that religious and racial prejudice is ok when practiced in Jordan, Lebanon and other countries not under the control of Israel?

I am opposed to discrimination on the grounds of sex; sexual identity or orientation; race, nationality or ethnicity, disability; age; family status; and religion. I am not sure why you would assume criticism of discrimination in one country to infer acceptance of it in another. Deflection, maybe? I listed the discrimination faced by Palestinians in other countries in response to the question of why they did not integrate. Listing overt discrimination is hardly support for it.

Quoting par13del (Reply 82):
Why single out Jewish,

Because it is Israeli and US politicians who insist on that wording. You'll have to ask them why they do.

Quoting par13del (Reply 82):
now where and how exactly and with which people are you going to implement such a society

I am not in a position to implement anything but the people in those countries themselves must make that choice. We have seen some movements for change against repressive regimes: Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Bahrain and of course the present fighting in Syria. It is significant that during the protests that led to Hosni Mubarak's downfall, the response of many who advocated democratic change was fear. To them democracy was something to be introduced gradually by sane and cautious people under the guidance of experts. It wasn't something that was meant to emerge form the streets. People power may have made a nice slogan but it wasn't something that inspired confidence in the corridors of power. I do not pretend that the outcome is perfect, far from it, and it remains to be seen how far changes in a more democratic direction go or whether the outcome will be a step backwards.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-18 06:20:05 and read 5210 times.

As long as the Palestinians, or the official Palestinian organisation does not accept the existence of Israel and enforces punishment against anyone violently acting against it there will be no lasting peace and no negotiation breakthrough.

As long a Israel does proceed with its policy of "politicide", meaning doing everything to destroy the founding of a possible Palestinian state, there will be no lasting peace and no negotiation breakthrough.

The Palestinians have the right to form a state as anyone else does, even if before the conflict there never was a united population. These are millions of people, Israel must see they cannot be treated with lesser rights by holding them in semi-captivity forever. Especially Israel shouldnt do to others what in the past was done to the Jews, segregation, humiliation, less rights. And creating reality by just founding settlements in areas occupied for a long time now but reserved for Palestinians by international decision before 1948 is imho a crime. But absolutely nothing works unless the Palestinians positively accept the reality of millions of Israelis never going away. Both sides have to make wide-ranging compromises apparently none is willing to even think about officially. And as long that is the case the rest of the world should not let themelves be dragged into that conflict.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-11-18 06:21:18 and read 5207 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 84):
I am opposed to discrimination on the grounds of sex; sexual identity or orientation; race, nationality or ethnicity, disability; age; family status; and religion. I am not sure why you would assume criticism of discrimination in one country to infer acceptance of it in another.

Re-read Nav20's response to your post, I quoted his response and listed your facts as you stated them, question was not directed to you.

Quoting par13del (Reply 82):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 78):
Agree that the stated reason is 'simple,' Quokkas. But it's hardly seems to be a matter of 'demographics'? Surely it's 'straight' religious and/or racial prejudice?

If what is posted below is also accurate, as we accepting that religious and racial prejudice is ok when practiced in Jordan, Lebanon and other countries not under the control of Israel?

What was below was your facts on Palestinian integration or lack thereof in the Middle East.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 84):
Because it is Israeli and US politicians who insist on that wording. You'll have to ask them why they do.

Ok, I took the post in general about the situation on the ground and not technicalities of who actually said it.

My point is that the religions in the Middle East which influence or run the relevant governments today are not tolerant of others, they are in most cases not even legal and must be practised underground.
Until that is addressed I do not see any kind of peaceful co-existence without the rule of the gun, whichever side is in charge.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-11-18 07:18:51 and read 5204 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 75):
A society that is unwilling to integrate refugees into normal life for over 60 years now must ask itself what they are doing wrong.

Hmm at first I thought you were writing of the Turkish "guest workers" in Germany...

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-18 07:34:22 and read 5207 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 75):
A society that is unwilling to integrate refugees into normal life for over 60 years now must ask itself what they are doing wrong.

Hmm at first I thought you were writing of the Turkish "guest workers" in Germany...[/quote]

If thats meant funny let me tell you it isnt. Integration is something that must in the first place be achieved by the "guests" themselves by adapting the rules and culture of the land they come to, not vice versa as some arrogantly or foolishly do.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-11-18 07:51:34 and read 5205 times.

Quoting na (Reply 88):
Integration is something that must in the first place be achieved by the "guests" themselves by adapting the rules and culture of the land they come to, not vice versa as some arrogantly or foolishly do.

What kind of test must be passed? It seems no such test is on the books, from what I've been told, so none can apply to be "German" enough to stop being "guest workers" after three generations in Germany.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-18 08:16:20 and read 5206 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 89):
What kind of test must be passed? It seems no such test is on the books, from what I've been told, so none can apply to be "German" enough to stop being "guest workers" after three generations in Germany.

I do not really understand what you are trying to say here. If you apply for a German citizenship, you have to sign you´re accepting the German constitution, which among other says, simply put, that the law is above the religion. That means, in conflict, the German law is above the Koran. I do not think that every "guest worker" qualifies as a German here. But, thats a minority among a minority. The wife of a neighbour of a friend of mine wears a Burkah. Her husband is a Salafist (and was recently arrested in a razzia but is free again), a radical muslim of a group actively trying to destroy the German constitution. If he is a German citizen by passport, imho he got it by cheating and should be extradited asap.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-18 08:39:02 and read 5203 times.

Quoting na (Reply 88):
Hmm at first I thought you were writing of the Turkish "guest workers" in Germany...

If thats meant funny let me tell you it isnt. Integration is something that must in the first place be achieved by the "guests" themselves by adapting the rules and culture of the land they come to, not vice versa as some arrogantly or foolishly do.[/quote]

No, I did not even intend to mean that. But your comparison is valid,

The higher the education, the better the integration. Integration is a very personal matter as well and can happen only in a free society. We offer it to everybody but the indvidual must make the move. Can't be forced.

However, here we are comparing the integration of Germans from the eastern part of Germany which was no longer Germany to the west. That sounds silly in today's world, it wasn't in the 50s.

But they blended in, like Palestinians should easily blend in with other Palestinians.

That article in Die Welt I mentioned also did a nice calculation, if Germans would have had the same fertility rate Palestinians in Gaza still have today, we'd number 550 million. That's about what the whole 27 EU members have.

Of course 550 million Germans of which a great number would impverished and even more would be under 20 and could not be employed, would be a nightmare for the rest of the world.

Understandable. But it also gives something to think about. It is intended by the radical leadership. Dictatorships and radical organisaions need these masses to follow their intentions. To keep the soup simmering.

A responsible Palestinian Government would do everything to come to peace with its next door neighbours which would ultimately lead to prosperity. Hamas does he opposite, they want to keep their people as pawns, keep the manipulable, unfree masses.

The changes must be made in the heads of the people, go away from religion, go away from terroir and accept that israelis have the right to live a peaceful life in their state. Firing up to twelve missiles per day in the direction is blatantly dumb. I mean, they got beaten time over time again. What do these "leaders", rather losers, expect?

They will run their heads against the wall over and over again.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-18 09:43:21 and read 5201 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 91):
, go away from religion, go away from terroir and accept that israelis have the right to live a peaceful life in their state.

This could be said for the Israeli side also. And while we're at it - I still don't know what the exact border of Israel looks like. Honest question - is there actually an exact plan to Israel's borders? If so - they need to stick to their own side of the border period. If not - why not?

Quote:
Firing up to twelve missiles per day in the direction is blatantly

So is killing political leaders (like them or not, they're elected representatives of the people).

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: powerslide
Posted 2012-11-18 09:54:48 and read 5193 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 92):
So is killing political leaders (like them or not, they're elected representatives of the people).

The "political" leaders are terrorists from a recognized terrorist group. Palestinians don't show they want peace when they elected terrorists. I hope Gaza gets sent back a few decades after this operation, enough is enough.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-18 10:06:35 and read 5191 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 93):
I hope Gaza gets sent back a few decades after this operation, enough is enough.

And do you honestly think that will quell the Palestinians and they'll all of the sudden want peace? Really? Why do you think they are like this in the first place?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: pvjin
Posted 2012-11-18 12:32:40 and read 5191 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 93):
The "political" leaders are terrorists from a recognized terrorist group. Palestinians don't show they want peace when they elected terrorists. I hope Gaza gets sent back a few decades after this operation, enough is enough.

Hah, a lot of actions of IDF meet definition of terrorism too. This is typical one sided rubbish where military groups in disagreement with US government & It's Middle-Eastern military base Israel are always labeled as terrorists while groups on other side using very same tactics are just normal soldiers.

I hope Israel will lose all the support it still has and Palestinians finally get their own state that belongs to them and Israelis would also become less racist than they are now and accept other religions and cultures within their borders.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: powerslide
Posted 2012-11-18 15:13:32 and read 5187 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 95):
I hope Israel will lose all the support it still has and Palestinians finally get their own state that belongs to them and Israelis would also become less racist than they are now and accept other religions and cultures within their borders.

Don't count on it. I have zero sympathy for people who hide behind the forces of prejudice and intolerance. Hamas fired rockets into Israel and now they reap what they have sown. Its an object lesson for Hezbollah and Iran.

http://www.thecommentator.com/articl...aza_exposes_our_deepest_prejudices

Quote:
Gaza exposes our deepest prejudices
As dozens are killed in Gaza, what does it tell us about the news media that so little is heard of the other struggles around the region?

by Media Hawk

As the fighting rages on in the Middle East, spare a moment for the civilians who are being murdered en masse.

No, I'm not talking about in Gaza.

Although any civilian deaths are to be mourned, the onus of blame for Gazan lives being lost is on Hamas, a fact lost on media commentators and producers, but illustrated by the graphic (below) quite well

http://www.thecommentator.com/ckeditor_assets/pictures/76/content_a738uiaccaaj-nz_jpg-large.jpeg


What I mean is that we should spare a moment of thought for Syrians and Iranians.

Gaza dominates the news as the death toll this week climbs to 42 - a staggeringly low statistic considering how many hundreds of raids Israel has made. But we continue for some reason, to ignore the tens of thousands being slaughtered in Syria, and the dozens killed in Iran by their respective regimes.

So far, over 37,000 people have been slaughtered by Assad's regime. And while the international community has had some stern words for the regime, we continue to sit back and effectively ignore the tragedy. Even the media is no longer interested.

In Iran this week, there have been around 81 public executions. Barbaric punishments, including the cutting off of fingers, hangings and floggings continue to blight Iran and yet not a word can be heard from the international community.

Yet we continue to lambast Israel for its tireless efforts in defending its Jewish population in the face of terrorist onslaught.

What does that say about us in the West? I would love to believe that it is simply that many people are instinctively pro-Arab, but the silence on Iran doesn't explain that. I would love to believe it was post-colonial guilt, but I fear it goes much deeper.

Regardless of the reasons behind which we hold Israel to an impossible standard, this does not account for the blackout regarding other areas in the world.

I hope we can all agree that no ones lives should be considered more important, simply because they are the cause of international celebrity or NGO campaigns. I look forwarding to hearing accurate and balanced reporting in future. For obvious reasons I won't hold my breath.


As for Hamas, being in biblical territory only makes it more fitting to quote Hosea 8:7:

"Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind"

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Flighty
Posted 2012-11-18 15:21:04 and read 5182 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 83):
A Jewish State can only remain a Jewish State if Jews are in the majority. And if they can't retain that majority by having a higher birthrate or large scale immigration of diaspora Jews, then they are going to apply other means to achieve it. If they don't resort to forcing people to leave and they don't exterminate them, the only other option is to maintain a system of institutionalised discrimination in which non-Jews are second class citizens.

Clearly states why the core tenets of "Jewish state" are impossible to uphold with any honor whatsoever. The idea is flawed.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 93):

The "political" leaders are terrorists from a recognized terrorist group. Palestinians don't show they want peace when they elected terrorists

If that's the best we can do, the only solution is to nuke both sides. That way, people who may be accused of "terror" and people who experience "terror" will all be dead.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: pvjin
Posted 2012-11-18 15:31:11 and read 5181 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 96):
Don't count on it. I have zero sympathy for people who hide behind the forces of prejudice and intolerance. Hamas fired rockets into Israel and now they reap what they have sown. Its an object lesson for Hezbollah and Iran.

Israel started this whole big mess by first killing their leader.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: powerslide
Posted 2012-11-18 16:40:22 and read 5184 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 98):
Israel started this whole big mess by first killing their leader.

Israel reacted when Gazans kept firing rockets at ISRAELI CIVILIANS DURING A CEASE FIRE. They just happened to target the Hamas leader. Israel has every right to protect themselves from acts of aggression and terror. Palestinians elected a terrorist organization, therefore they condone terrorism against Israel. What is happening in Gaza was just a bubble waiting to burst, Israel was just waiting for the election to be over so they could protect themselves. It's time for Israel to clean house in Gaza once and for all.

I love how the US kills a whole village in pakistan/astan = oops, carry on. Syria murders 15k people = yawn, who cares. Iran kills people daily via public executions = normal. Israel hits a family in Gaza while attempting to prevent their own actual population from being shelled = OMGWTFBBQSTOPTHEPRESS!!

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-18 17:03:27 and read 5185 times.

Did a bit of reading up and found, among other things, that the original mistake (which arguably led to the still-developing tragedy that is Palestine/Israel) was actually made by the United Nations in 1947. Other mistakes were made by both the US and British Governments of the time, in the lead-up to partition.

Firstly, UN Resolution 181, passed in November 1947, referred to the setting up of "the Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem." So the corrosive mixture of religion, racial intolerance, and politics that has bedevilled the region ever since was in fact started by the UN - by referring to one side of the argument as a race, and the other as a religion.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Pr...eral%20Assembly%20Resolution%20181

The second mistake was made by US President Harry Truman. The date for partition to come into force had been set as 15 May 1948. Truman had no time for the more radical Zionists, and definitely had doubts about the whole principle of the partition (as did many of his senior advisers). But, of course, 1948 was an election year and he was under ceaseless pressure from the Jewish Lobby. In the end, he more or less 'washed his hands' over the whole business, ignored the misgivings of many of his senior advisers, and (as this article shows) appears to have signed the relevant document without giving himself time to read it fully (except the title, which he amended by hand):-

"Truman's rapid signing (within 11 minutes) of the document that recognized the 'new state of Israel' (after learning the new state would be called Israel, the words 'Jewish state' were crossed out and the words 'state of Israel' were inserted) angered members at a United Nations meeting on the Trusteeship. The entire U.S. delegation threatened to resign because they had not been properly informed of the announcement and felt ridiculed. Cuban Ambassador Belt, who had three hours earlier engineered the steering of the Trusteeship proposal through a UN committee, also threatened to leave the United Nations, due to what he perceived as U.S. duplicity."

http://www.alternativeinsight.com/1948_Recognition_of_Israel.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4239748,00.html

The third error was made by the British Prime Minister of the time, Clement Attlee. His predecessor, Winston Churchill, had been very much in favour of the Zionist cause; but the British public had decisively thrown Churchill out in 1945, in the closing days of WW2, and elected Attlee instead. Attlee is on record as having had serious doubts about the wisdom of the partition; and at first (being convinced that the partition process would very likely end in a virtual civil war) he tried hard to slow things down, including putting as much pressure as he could on Truman. But Attlee's problem (you could call it his 'weak point,' I suppose) was that he had served through WW1 as a frontline soldier, and been severely wounded. The British Army had been running Palestine after the War under a UN mandate, and had been ceaselessly attacked by militant Zionists like the 'Stern Gang,' suffering heavy casualties. Attlee clearly decided against leaving British soldiers in Palestine, where they would undoubtedly be 'piggy in the middle' between the Zionists and the Palestinians; so he decided, with the full support of his cabinet, that the British Army would commence its withdrawal from Palestine in February 1948, and complete it on 15th.May 1948 - the very day that the UN had ruled that partition would take effect.

Sorry for the long post - but I hope it's of interest.

[Edited 2012-11-18 17:19:29]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: powerslide
Posted 2012-11-18 17:23:44 and read 5177 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 100):
Did a bit of reading up and found, among other things, that the original mistake (which arguably led to the still-developing tragedy that is Palestine/Israel) was actually made by the United Nations in 1947.

Whether or not it is a mistake, whatever happened, happened. It's time to look at the present situation and start making provisions for peace. Dwelling on the past isn't going to help anyone, especially the Palestinians who aren't in the best of situations. IMO, the only way to solve this is either a re-occupation of Gaza or a complete blitzkrieg of the Hamas military infrastructure.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-18 17:35:54 and read 5188 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 77):
Incidentally, I am not sure what people think of when they use the term "refugee camps".

That in reality, its really "no" better than one.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 77):
In 1948 onwards they may have started out as camps with tents and temporary accommodation but over time they have developed into superficially normal places.

Well Quokkas, I reckon the tents will be back in vogue once the IDF bombs and flattens everything in sight.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 78):
Surely it's 'straight' religious and/or racial prejudice?

You bet your bottom $ it is. Just plain outright racial prejudice.
The most extraordinary thing from all of this, is that you'd think the Jews would have learned a lesson from past history, apparently not it seems  
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 80):
On the surface it seems so but given the history of persecution that Jewish people have suffered over centuries it is understandable that they would want a place to call their own.

Quokkas, could the same be said about the Jews ?? They know all about persecution etc, but they sure as hell don't mind doing it to others.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 80):
So yes, as the founders of Israel saw Jewish people as a people (nation if you will, not merely adherents of a particular religion) then it does come down to racial or ethnic demographics.

Then it should be stopped, because its wrong, no if's and but's, its just wrong.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 80):
Yet the room for a two state solution is diminishing to the point that any Palestinian State based on Gaza and the West Bank would be unviable.

Could this be because Israel keeps stealing land and building settlements ?
Then its no wonder there's nothing left and its not "viable"


Quoting NAV20 (Reply 81):
And - sorry again - the whole idea of artificially maintaining some sort of 'Jewish majority' is, to me, straight racism; out of the same box as apartheid or the Nazi 'master-race' concept.

Well said NAV20 !
As I stated above in a previous post, Israel needs to stand in front of a very large mirror, one that came from Nazi Germany WW11. I find it simply incredible that there are so many parallels between then, and whats happening in Gaza right now.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 83):
And despite the rhetoric, this is a position that enjoys the support of countries like the US, Britain and Australia.

Well I for one, am ashamed that "our" Government falls over itself, when it comes to supporting Israel, in the way it dose, and the same can be said fore the rest of those countries. I wont even mention the US.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 83):
While no one ever asserts the right of Palestinians to defend themselves when their homes are bulldozed and their orchards uprooted, they all affirm Israel's right to defend itself. Further, when Mahmoud Abbas was trying to garner support for Palestine's bid for UN member status, the US insisted that Abbas "recognise Israel as a Jewish State" and still threatened to use its veto.

Then Quokkas, we need to change that, don't you think ?
How about we start up some threads in "support" of the Palestinians then, you can be first cab of the rank.... !
Because this continual blind support of everything Israel dose, compared to, hurdle after hurdle placed before the Palestinians is really starting to ware thin, VERY thin.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 93):
I hope Gaza gets sent back a few decades after this operation, enough is enough.

So you want the status quo to continue, with both parties living under the cloud of war, crazy.         

I'd suggest to you that it will impact more on the daily life if the Israelis than it will on the Palestinians, cause they already live daily life in the toilet, so in that way, it will be intriguing to see how Israelis cope ?


Quoting powerslide (Reply 96):
I have zero sympathy for people who hide behind the forces of prejudice and intolerance.

Look no further than your own yard powerslide.....

http://www.theage.com.au/world/israe...nst-arabs-poll-20121024-2844m.html

Where's that mirror again ?

Quoting powerslide (Reply 96):
Hamas fired rockets into Israel and now they reap what they have sown.

And Israel is a thief and a bully and they now live with...."Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind"

BTW powerslid, if I were you I wouldn't believe ANY pic that comes from the IDF, although I do like the colours they used to colour in the various sites the IDF "claim" to be missile launching pads. They look very much like houses to me

Quoting powerslide (Reply 101):
the only way to solve this is either a re-occupation of Gaza or a complete blitzkrieg of the Hamas military infrastructure.

What about this solution powerslide.... What's say Israel gives back all the stolen land that they've blatantly taken over the decades, any hope of that happening soon perhaps ??

[Edited 2012-11-18 17:47:33]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-18 17:47:33 and read 5189 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 91):
like Palestinians should easily blend in with other Palestinians

I think you will find that Palestinians have blended in with other Palestinians. What they haven't achieved is an independent state. The division between Hamas and others is over how to achieve an objective. It is significant (and sometimes forgotten) that when Hamas first formed out of the discontent with the PLO's failure to achieve a state, Hamas received funding from Israel who saw Hamas as a useful tool to weaken the influence of the PLO. So perhaps, it is

Quoting powerslide (Reply 96):
more fitting to quote Hosea 8:7:"Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind"
Quoting powerslide (Reply 93):
The "political" leaders are terrorists from a recognized terrorist group.

Sorry, are you referring to the terrorists who founded Israel or the ones who want to achieve a Palestinian state? People like Menachim Begin were de facto terrorists. The British put a price on his head but he was a welcome guest at the White House and, later, Buckingham Palace. Today's terrorist is tomorrow's statesman.

What do we make of people who have been ministers in the Israeli Government who say that Palestinians are a "cancer" and "dark forces" going on to say, "We have to kill them all". "Expel most of the Judea and Samaria Arabs from here. We cannot be with all these Arabs and we cannot give up the land." These are the words of Efraim Eitam. He also threatened Arab members of the Knesset with "One day we will expel you to Gaza from this house and from the national home of the Jewish people." When the Israeli Army used Nidal Abu Muihsein as a human shield, causing his death, Efraim said this was "very moral" and he later criticised the Supreme Courts banning the practice.

This isn't some lone crank. This is a man who was educated at the Royal Military College in Sandhurst, attained the rank of brigadier general and received the Medal of Distinguished Service. A man appointed to ministerial rank even before being elected to the Knesset and who was Netanyahus' special emissary to the so-called Caravan to Democracy.

But he isn't alone. At the 1993 Likud Convention, Ariel Sharon formally proposed that Israel should adopt the Bibiblical Borders concept as its official policy. Again, not a lone crank but a man who went on to become Prime Minister. But what does the Bible actually say?

Genesis 15:18 "In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates"

Deuteronomy 11:24 "Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be."

Not much room there for negotiating on the baisis of the 1967 Borders. Perhaps we are fortunate that today the only mention of rivers in connection with defensible borders is the River Jordan.

[Edited 2012-11-18 18:01:49]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-18 17:50:29 and read 5193 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 99):
Israel reacted when Gazans kept firing rockets at ISRAELI CIVILIANS DURING A CEASE FIRE. They just happened to target the Hamas leader. Israel has every right to protect themselves from acts of aggression and terror.

Of course what Hamas is doing is wrong. Not arguing that. I'm saying it's a 2 way street and Israel's actions leading up to this are not the best. The Palestinians do in fact have very legitimate gripes even if they are going about it the wrong way

Quoting powerslide (Reply 99):
It's time for Israel to clean house in Gaza once and for all.

What does this mean???

Quoting powerslide (Reply 99):
I love how the US kills a whole village in pakistan/astan = oops, carry on.

Um, we definitely take a lot of flak for our civilian casualties as we should. In fact, we may say "oops, carry on" but the locals get PISSED and that leads to anti-American sentiment and is a major contributor to terrorism against us. Kinda like Israel's actions cause a lot of bitter feelings from Muslims (again, NOT condoning rocketing civilians.) And you want to talk about a double standard, watch the news. You get the sad story of an Israeli that had a "notebook sized piece of shrapnel come through the walls into the bedroom." And then you see, scrolling along the bottom of the TV or just a brief mention, that X number of Palestinians died as collateral damage. No one cares. THAT is a double standard my friend.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 101):
Whether or not it is a mistake, whatever happened, happened. It's time to look at the present situation and start making provisions for peace. Dwelling on the past isn't going to help anyone, especially the Palestinians who aren't in the best of situations.

         It is not realistic to send all the Jews out. What happened in 1947/48 (can't remember the year) happened a long time ago. Just like it's unrealistic to send all the Americans back to Europe/Africa/Asia/etc and give the US back to the Native Americans. But this goes both ways... Israel needs to know that the past and present are different--they are now the dominant military force (with nukes) and they aren't getting invaded. They definitely now have an upper hand on the Palestinians...

The failures of the Muslims to make peace with Israel IN THE PAST are done. Yes, they may continue to do shady things but NOW having a 2 state option, for example, is viable (it isn't just GTFO Jews, we want ALL of Israel.)

I think you get what I'm saying

Quoting powerslide (Reply 101):
IMO, the only way to solve this is either a re-occupation of Gaza or a complete blitzkrieg of the Hamas military infrastructure.

How would beating down the people even more solve anything? They already live in crappy conditions and know that Israel is the top dog militarily.

Powerslide, do you know the complaint of the average Palestinian??? It ain't "death to all Jews, Israelis get out, give us all of Palestine back" you know. Israel is not perfect, and I can say that without being anti-Israel (just as I can disagree with what my dad says and still love him, for example.)

Can the settlement building be justified?

Can the horrible living conditions in Palestine be justified?

Can we look at the media and really say there is a bias AGAINST Israel?

Can we say Israel does NO wrong and Palestinians don't have ANY legitimate complaints?

We can chide the Palestinians for launching rockets, for blowing up nightclubs, for being reluctant for peace in some situations... but we can't operate on a double standard and let Israel do what they want. BOTH sides must be accountable, BOTH sides have done wrong, and BOTH sides are going to need to compromise to fix this. Israel isn't the golden child that can't do no wrong, they have done some bad things themselves that is affecting the peace process.

Edit: sorry it's a long post, please don't just skip over the whole thing, I'm trying to be objective and fair to both sides as possible...

[Edited 2012-11-18 17:51:48]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-18 18:08:25 and read 5197 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 103):
It is significant (and sometimes forgotten) that when Hamas first formed out of the discontent with the PLO's failure to achieve a state, Hamas received funding from Israel who saw Hamas as a useful tool to weaken the influence of the PLO.

I forget who, but someone likened Hamas to the Israelis using a hammer to kill a mosquito on their forehead.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 104):
Powerslide, do you know the complaint of the average Palestinian??? It ain't "death to all Jews, Israelis get out, give us all of Palestine back" you know.

Mostly they'd like to not be second class citizens and be able to live and work without what is effectively apartheid.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 104):
Can we look at the media and really say there is a bias AGAINST Israel?

Not in America.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 104):
What does this mean???

It probably means exactly what you think it means. And the Israelis could pull it off without having anyone do anything substantial about it. Perhaps a slap on the wrist or being called to the principal's office, but that's a small price to pay for a final solution to their Palestinian problem, right?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-18 18:24:56 and read 5191 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 105):
Perhaps a slap on the wrist or being called to the principal's office

Perhaps the principal is no longer who it used to be.

Do people recall that in a previous round of discussion with Israel, Obama offered a bribe to Netanyahu. He offered additional aid and access to advanced weapons technology not available to other countries if Netanyahu agreed to halt further settlements. Netanyahu's reply was thank you, we'll accept your offer but on condition that you never raise the question of settlements again. The deal fell through. Obama wasn't prepared to be humiliated that much. But equally, the US since has been less insistent on a halt to further settlements.

The relation between Israel and the US has changed. Israel is not a client going cap in hand or needing a protector. It calculates that it will be supported by the US and that the Arab states are not a threat, regardless of what the leaders of those states say for internal consumption.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-18 18:43:54 and read 5196 times.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 102):
As I stated above in a previous post, Israel needs to stand in front of a very large mirror, one that came from Nazi Germany WW11. I find it simply incredible that there are so many parallels between then, and whats happening in Gaza right now.

Oddly enough, there is in fact an almost exact parallel in relatively recent times - the Warsaw Ghetto. Large numbers of Jews being 'walled up' in a small, confined area; guarded by soldiers, shot if they attempted to escape, and allowed virtually no contact with the outside world. They rebelled in the end, and were 'dealt with' by the German Army:-

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/warsaw.htm

For 'Warsaw' read 'Gaza,' for 'Jews' read 'Palestinians'........?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-18 18:49:25 and read 5193 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 107):
For 'Warsaw' read 'Gaza,' for 'Jews' read 'Palestinians'........?

It is pretty similar, but comparing the innocent Jews in the 1940s with the Palestinians that have committed real crimes kinda makes us sound biased against the Israelis... we can't give a pass to any side's wrongdoing (I know you weren't trying to do that but if I learned anything from this thread, you have to go out of your way to be ridiculously "fair" to both sides or else you're a zionist or anti-Semite)

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-18 18:55:16 and read 5195 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 98):
Israel started this whole big mess by first killing their leader.

   Israel's attack was reactionary to more rocket attacks inside Israeli territory, so your statement is false.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-18 19:11:10 and read 5195 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 108):
It is pretty similar, but comparing the innocent Jews in the 1940s with the Palestinians that have committed real crimes kinda makes us sound biased against the Israelis...

The parallel 'covers' that aspect too, DeltaMD90. The people in the ghetto eventually took up arms and started shooting:-

"However, the remaining Jews knew by now that deportation meant death and chose to resist. A Jewish Fighting Organization, ZOB, had been formed, consisting of 22 groups, each having 20 to 30 men, boys and some women. The group had sent desperate appeals for weapons to anti-Nazi Poles outside the ghetto and were supplied with enough weapons to successfully resist deportation by attacking from rooftops, cellars and attics. As a result, 20 Germans were killed and 50 wounded.

"The Jewish resistance, combined with the severe winter weather and a shortage of trains, prevented the SS from meeting Himmler's February deadline."


Guess it's a case of 'one man's crime is another man's resistance movement.'  

The Free French did the same sort of thing in WW2. No-one says those guys were 'criminals'?

[Edited 2012-11-18 19:12:38]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-18 19:15:01 and read 5194 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 110):
The parallel 'covers' that aspect too, DeltaMD90. The people in the ghetto eventually took up arms and started shooting:-

But mostly not at civilians.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: jfk69
Posted 2012-11-18 19:16:45 and read 5197 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 107):
Oddly enough, there is in fact an almost exact parallel in relatively recent times - the Warsaw Ghetto. Large numbers of Jews being 'walled up' in a small, confined area; guarded by soldiers, shot if they attempted to escape, and allowed virtually no contact with the outside world. They rebelled in the end, and were 'dealt with' by the German Army:-

I don't really agree. the Israelis are not shooting random Palestinians because they are not Jews. The Germans killed them because they were Jews. As mush as it may not look like it the Israelis are not targeting civilians, they are going after Hamas targets. The Israelis are not attempting mass genocide as the Germans did.....Pretty sure the hundreds of press on hand in Gaza puts to rest the idea of no contact with the outside world.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-11-18 19:23:10 and read 5196 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 101):
It's time to look at the present situation and start making provisions for peace.

That statement is not compatible with this one:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 93):
I hope Gaza gets sent back a few decades after this operation

Israel will not find peace by inflicting pain on Gaza. It will not happen.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 105):
Mostly they'd like to not be second class citizens and be able to live and work without what is effectively apartheid.

   The Palestinians want a better life for themselves. They don't care about Israel, other than to be pissed at Israel for the actions that Israel takes, whether justified or not, that make the Palestinian territories a pretty crappy place to be. And if Hamas can give them more order, better working conditions, better pay, more stability, etc., they'll vote for Hamas. It would be illogical for them not to. Why should we expect them to vote the way Israel would want them to vote when they're not Israeli?

-Mir

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-18 19:29:32 and read 5200 times.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 113):
I don't really agree. the Israelis are not shooting random Palestinians

You could sure have fooled me.........

"ISRAELI air strikes overnight killed 31 Palestinians in the bloodiest day so far of its massive air campaign on the Gaza Strip, as diplomatic efforts to broker a truce intensified.

With Egypt at the centre of efforts to broker a ceasefire, Palestinian officials said it was possible a deal would be reached "today or tomorrow."

"But there was no letup in the bloodshed in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip, with medics saying women and children accounted for at least 14 of Sunday's 29 killed, among them five babies and toddlers, in Israeli strikes from the air.

"In the day's most lethal raid, at least nine members of the same family -- five of them children -- were among 10 people killed when an Israeli missile destroyed a family home in Gaza City, the health ministry said."


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-d...hamas/story-fn7ycml4-1226519281924

Admittedly, they're not actually shooting them - they're bombing them from about 10,000 feet. But that appears to be the only difference?

[Edited 2012-11-18 19:37:48]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-18 19:34:07 and read 5198 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 112):
But mostly not at civilians.

In the latest round of fighting the majority of civilians have been killed as a result of Israeli strikes. Israel justifies this, while saying it is regrettable, on the grounds that Hamas uses people as human shields. They used that argument to justify bombing a building used by Britain's SkyTV - it was a target because it had an antenna which Israel argues was being used to organise attacks and that British journalists were merely human shields. As far as I am aware journalists generally are civilians.

Hamas counters by arguing that all adult Israelis are either in the IDF or reservists and therefore legitimate targets. Besides which, all the people being forcibly displaced by Israeli settlers are civilians.

So each side kills civilians and each has "justifications". When one side does it, it is regrettable but unavoidable collateral damage. When the other side does it, it proof of how inhumane, savage and cowardly they are. It all depends on who is doing the reporting.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-18 19:44:21 and read 5203 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 115):

I am a critic of Israel's actions, but there is a BIG difference between them and what the Nazis did. They at least aren't targeting civilians (it is collateral damage) and the Jews in the ghetto truly did nothing wrong, while the Palestinians at least fired missiles.

I even drew a slight comparison to what the Israelis did and what the Nazis did, but there are notable differences, and I think it's unfair to not point them out.

Neither side are saints and both have their flaws

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-18 20:03:52 and read 5201 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 107):
For 'Warsaw' read 'Gaza,' for 'Jews' read 'Palestinians'........?

If only!

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 108):
but comparing the innocent Jews in the 1940s with the Palestinians that have committed real crimes kinda makes us sound biased against the Israelis...

Yes, but there are a fair few Palestinians who are innocent too.Nearly 50% the population of 1.6 million in Gaza, are children, so there a fair few already!

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 113):
the Israelis are not shooting random Palestinians because they are not Jews.

Utter Rubbish

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/336788

And there are many more examples!

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 113):
Pretty sure the hundreds of press on hand in Gaza puts to rest the idea of no contact with the outside world.

Oh you mean the ones that were just bombed by the IDF....

And I quote

"The strikes on the media centers hit two high-rise buildings, damaging the top floor offices of the Hamas TV station, Al Aqsa, and a Lebanese-based broadcaster, Al Quds TV, seen as sympathetic to the Islamists.

A Gaza press association said six Palestinian journalists were wounded, including one who lost a leg. Foreign broadcasters, including British, German and Italian TV outlets, also had offices in the high-rises."

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 112):
But mostly not at civilians.

Sorry, don't buy it.
There are way to many examples to completely bury that statement.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 117):
They at least aren't targeting civilians (it is collateral damage) and the Jews in the ghetto truly did nothing wrong, while the Palestinians at least fired missiles.

I am not to sure about that DeltaMD90. That is certainly the story we are all feed by the super slick Israeli PR machine of which Mark Regev seems to be maters spokesperson for.
When you have a place the size of Palestine/Gaza or whatever it is you want to call it, and you bomb it, you will always have innocent civilians, the place just isn't big enough for civillians to escape to a safer place, and the Israelis know that FULL WELL.
So to imply that they are not going after civilians is disingenuous to say the least , IMHO

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 117):
Neither side are saints and both have their flaws

But you'd have to agree, its hardly a level playing field now is it ?

[Edited 2012-11-18 20:05:55]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-18 20:12:15 and read 5202 times.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 118):
Yes, but there are a fair few Palestinians who are innocent too.Nearly 50% the population of 1.6 million in Gaza, are children, so there a fair few already!

Yes I know, sorry if I implied otherwise

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 118):
I am not to sure about that DeltaMD90. That is certainly the story we are all feed by the super slick Israeli PR machine of which Mark Regev seems to be maters spokesperson for.

I've seen some shady things, but I don't think they'd intentionally kill civilians. They don't have hearts of gold but I don't think they'd do that (that's pretty sick.) What would be the point anyway? If anything, it hurts Israel in any way you can spin it

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 118):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 117):
Neither side are saints and both have their flaws

But you'd have to agree, its hardly a level playing field now is it ?

No it's not, at all. A big problem I see, however, is neither side wants to admit their flaws. I'm not putting a % on "who's fault it really is" because that does no good and really doesn't matter... each side NEEDS to make some serious concessions in order to achieve peace

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-18 20:27:37 and read 5202 times.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 118):
Sorry, don't buy it.
There are way to many examples to completely bury that statement.

I meant in the Warsaw ghetto. That's the difference between that and the Palestinians: the Jews in Warsaw were mostly not shooting at Polish or German civilians.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-11-18 20:34:42 and read 5214 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 119):
I've seen some shady things, but I don't think they'd intentionally kill civilians.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...ed_n_2155932.html?utm_hp_ref=world

"We need to flatten entire neighborhoods."

The little dirty secret that nobody ever talks about is how a lot of very pro-Israel Jews (call them "Zionists" if you like) will sit around at cocktail parties telling jokes about killing Arab babies. I know this because I have these folks in my family. I want to throttle them and say: "Don't you realize you sound like the very same Nazis that are supposedly the reason we needed Israel in the first place?"

There are huge numbers of right-wing Jews who view Palestinians, and Arabs in general, as being sub-human. They may not be targeting civilians, but the problem with a terror war is that, "In a war like this, there are no civilians." And certainly, I doubt that Ariel Sharon or any of his cabinet will shed one molecule of tear over a dead Palestinian child.

To be sure, the opposite is true, as well. Palestinians view Israelis as plague monsters and baby killers. Perhaps they have earned it or not. I doubt the higher-ranking officials in Hamas care if an Israeli child dies and might even rejoice at the idea of one less soldier for the IDF.

The end result is this: both sides have a hatred of each-other than runs in the blood. I honestly do not believe that the violence will stop until there is complete genocide on one side or the other.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-18 20:36:28 and read 5218 times.

Sorry I 'flew off the handle' a bit, guys, but I am a bit of a rarity among A.netters - in that I've been bombed myself in my time.

Mostly it was a matter of sleepless nights in the shelter - but one particular raid - in 1944 - sticks in my memory.

The Germans had stopped sending over big raids by that time, and their activity was limited to 'cloud cover raids' - a few (very brave) aircrew coming over in fast aeroplanes on cloudy days.

My brother and I were playing in the front garden (on our own, both our parents had to travel into London every day). As it happened, there were Italian prisoners mending the road and German prisoners trimming the hedges, both parties guarded by British soldiers.

We all heard aircraft engines. The Italians and British shouted to us to lie down, and two 'effing great' Germans rushed into the garden and crouched over us.

The aeroplane ('big brother' later told me that it was a Messerschmitt 110) roared low over our heads, but there were no bombs. Instead he left us alone, made a tight turn, went back the way he had come, and bombed a military-looking hutted camp just outside the village.

The 'black comedy' of the situation was, of course, that the camp in question was a prison camp full of Germans and Italians.......

Anyway, again, sorry for the 'fit of temper' - but, as it happens, I DO know what it feels like to be bombed, and how the Gazans (and their kids) feel about it - and I wouldn't wish it in anyone.......

And yes, I know that the Gazans are sending rockets over too - but they're only using virtually 'home-made' stuff which isn't accurate and doesn't cause much damage; and very few Israelis have been killed or hurt. The Israelis are using 'the real McCoy' - thousand-pounders and up - and hundreds of Palestinians have already been killed or wounded. It's a totally unequal 'contest'......and I just KNOW how the ordinary innocent Palestinians are feeling, night after night - parents AND kids........

Anyway, rant over, apologies again......

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-18 21:54:59 and read 5212 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 121):
Sorry I 'flew off the handle' a bit, guys, but I am a bit of a rarity among A.netters - in that I've been bombed myself in my time.

NAV20, defiantly no need for apologies, at least not from where I stand.

In ALL your posts, not only in this thread about Israel, but previous ones too, you have been nothing buy fair, in your appraisal of the situation going on over there. Your historical knowledge of the ME landscape, especially Israel/Palestine is also to be noted.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 121):
and I wouldn't wish it in anyone.......

Yes, I can only imagine what that must be like......
I have heard many bombing stories from relatives in Holland during the war, funnily enough, most of the damage was done by the Yanks and the Brits trying to get the Germans, which they mostly missed !!

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: zkojq
Posted 2012-11-19 05:19:19 and read 5192 times.

Death toll so far for the most recent part of the conflict:
Palestinians/Gazans: 92
Israelis: 4 or 5
Interestingly. The total fatalities in the history of rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza into Israel is 26. This is since June 2004.
Israel is using the same 'surgical strikes' which killed 1,200 Lebanese, most of them civilians, in 2006, and the 1,300 Palestinians, most of them civilians, in Gaza in 2008-9.

What I find interesting is all the pro-israeli propaganda coming from the IDF. A few days ago there was a fake image purporting to show that Gazans store their rockets directly under hospitals and they have a widget thingy that counts rocket attacks from Gaza that is massively inaccurate (even by its own numbers).

Gilad Sharon (a former Israel PM's father) wrote an interesting piece in the JP recently. According to him Israel needs to
'flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn't stop with Hiroshima - the Japanese weren't surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.' He also mentioned that ''There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing.'

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
That's what the majority of the Israelis, who live in a prosperous country and enjoy , unlike their neighbours, democracy, want as well.
But as the old proverb says, you cannot live in peace if your neighbour don't let you.

Not much of a democracy when one many elements of one ethnic group don't want the other to have the right to vote. For the record Egypt and Jordan both have elected governments (with Jordan being a constitutional monarchy) and Hamas won municipal elections in Gaza.
http://www.dw.de/israelis-debate-sig...nce-of-apartheid-survey/a-16349215

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
Sixty years and longer in a refugee camp?

You make it sound like moving out of Gaza and around the West Bank is easy for those who live there. This isn't Israel where a substantial component of the population arrived in passenger jets from lands a-far, get paid to live there (or at least have a vast proportion of their living costs covered by various organisations) and where those who live there can move about internally with ease.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 34):
So why is it that in the West Bank, which is not ruled by Hamas, that the majority of the continuing dispossession of Palestinians is taking place.

What I find really scary is the settlers who are colonizing the West Bank. Many of them are some of the most extremist and intolerant right wingers about. Many videos (including the one below) will attest to this. I also find it sickening how when Israeli settlements are built, the water supply previously enjoyed by the local Palestinians is often cutoff and diverted to the new settlements. This has the obvious effect of making the Palestinians leave so their land can be claimed by settlers when needed. But because of the WWII Holocaust the world is apparently all ok with this.   
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d95_1182673079
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle.../2009/10/20091026132714361238.html
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/12/1...raelwest-bank-separate-and-unequal

Quoting EDKA (Reply 37):
and how much of this is Palestinians' own fault?

Palestinians didn't cause the WWII Holocaust. How exactly would you have dealt with boat loads of migrants coming to your shores, conquesting your lands, treating you like a second class citizen, declaring sovereignty and creating a state whose very basis is on one's ethnicity (something out of one's own control)?.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 46):
Everything around there would be so much easier if Jerusalem wasn't so important to three major religions or alternatively if humans weren't so incredibly stupid.

   Additionally (and speaking as a highly puritanical christian) the problem is also based on people believing that a holy book gives them entitlement to a worldly possession/commodity (land). It will never work, even if everyone accepts that holy book as law and truth.   

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 52):
As far as I'm concerned, Israel is a 'rogue state' and should be treated as such by the rest of the world.

I agree though I doubt things are going to change any time soon, AIPAC and its siblings are too powerful. It would be nice if a few rich mid-east states banded together and formed a lobby group to counter its influence. What I also find very worrying is the rise of various lobby groups, similar to AIPAC, in other parts of the world. I read a column in The Spectator Australia magazine last year where the author was praising the founders of one (can't remember its name) and noting its achievements and effects. Here in New Zealand we have a lobby group that routinely buys up advertising space in the national newspapers (which apparently are too biased against Israel) and reports a hard right-wing Israeli perspective on matters. IMO, its only a matter of time before they start trying to buying up politicians like AIPAC does. Thankfully our electoral system is somewhat more transparent than that of the US, particularly when it comes to donations/money.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 65):
The Israeli government has been willing to go to negotiations with the Palestinians for a long time with no preconditions.

A settlement freeze is hardly an unreasonable precondition. Anyhow, since Rabin's death, Israel has had no interest in peace, just in conquesting more and more of the West Bank so as to make a Palestinian state unviable. Participating in peace talks just gives Israel a prettier face while the aforementioned actions happen.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 34):
Tell a Palestinian mother who sees her house being bulldozed in front of her children that Israel is her friend when they allow thugs to trample their olive trees while the IDF looks on and will only intervene to protect the "settlers".
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
NO ONE is defending the Palestinians launching rockets and killing civilians.
Quoting damirc (Reply 53):
Well, I do believe that they do have a right to exist. Just that those rights end at the '67 borders and they will need to work on restitution for the Palestinians and finally start playing fair.
Quoting damirc (Reply 53):
But I will admit that I'm afraid that Israel will not exist in a hundred years time if they continue treading on the path that they're on at the moment. And frankly with everything that has happened to the Jews, that would be very bad indeed.
Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 66):
If you back an animal into a corner and treat it harshly, it will lash out.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 81):
As you say, a complete population with a 2,000-year history (which took no part in WW2 or the Holocaust) being 'expelled' by force - without compensation of any kind. And, still worse, nearly two million of them being walled up in what you can only call a 'concentration camp' - Gaza........
Quoting pvjin (Reply 95):
Hah, a lot of actions of IDF meet definition of terrorism too. This is typical one sided rubbish where military groups in disagreement with US government & It's Middle-Eastern military base Israel are always labeled as terrorists while groups on other side using very same tactics are just normal soldiers.
Quoting Mir (Reply 113):
Israel will not find peace by inflicting pain on Gaza. It will not happen.

  

Quoting pvjin (Reply 79):
I remember how during conflict between Lebanon and Israel they "accidentally" shot well known UN bunker location with artillery, killing several peacekeepers.

   Sadly several international leaders actually believed it.   

Quoting powerslide (Reply 93):
Palestinians don't show they want peace when they elected terrorists.

Israelis don't show they want peace when they treat Palestinians in Israel and the West Bank like second class citizens, build settlements in the West Bank and colonize them so as to make the population balance favor Israel (not to mention all the other stuff such as cutting off access and water to Palestinians), blockade Gaza to prevent economic improvement, use White Phosphorus (which the US classifies as a chemical weapon) over civilian neighborhoods (including schools), and use overwhelming force in Gaza and Lebanon which kills scores and scores of civilians.... and then claim that all of this is OK because of the WWII Holocaust. As someone who is mildly Armenian, I find that using a past genocide to justify foreign policy and war to be sickening. A genocide doesn't give a people the right to do what ever the hell they like and to be above international law (and common decency).

Quoting powerslide (Reply 99):
Israel has every right to protect themselves from acts of aggression and terror.

And Palestinians don't? Does the bombing during the night of build up areas/civilian neighborhoods and refugee camps not count as acts of terror?
Personally, I'd like the Palestinians to abandon rockets in favor of a proper air defense system to keep out Israeli F-16s, Herons and other military aircraft. Unfortunately they aren't exactly rolling in cash, so any air defense system would have to be donated.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 122):
In ALL your posts, not only in this thread about Israel, but previous ones too, you have been nothing buy fair, in your appraisal of the situation going on over there. Your historical knowledge of the ME landscape, especially Israel/Palestine is also to be noted.

   Keep up the good work, NAV20. You are on my respected user list for good reason.  

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: casinterest
Posted 2012-11-19 05:28:41 and read 5189 times.

Let's see..
Palestinians circumvent embargo to get missiles. Launch missiles at Israel. Demand removal of embargo to stop firing missiles.

I have sympathy for those caught up in the tragic undertakings of the under trained and ill prepared Hamas, but it would seem to me that the Embargo is in place for good reason, and the citizens of Palestine would do well to take some anger out on Hamas that continually puts them in more mortal danger.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-19 06:03:05 and read 5189 times.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 122):
I have heard many bombing stories from relatives in Holland during the war, funnily enough, most of the damage was done by the Yanks and the Brits trying to get the Germans, which they mostly missed !!

Yes, not very accurate. I met my share of people who were involved.

The British flew mostly by night (until late in the War, anyway). They almost never saw their targets clearly; they mostly bombed 'target-markers' - coloured flares dropped by the more skilled crews, the Pathfinders, who flew ahead of the 'bomber stream.' And sometimes visibility was so poor that they couldn't even see the flares, let alone the targets, in which case they 'bombed on ETA' ('Estimated Time of Arrival') - dropped their bombs when the navigator's Swiss watch said that, according to the flightplan, they were over the target. Sounds bad, dropping bombs pretty well at random; but a Lancaster carried up to about 8 tons of bombs, they simply didn't have the fuel to fly all the way back to the UK with a full bombload, so they had to jettison anyway.......

USAAF bombing crews were not trained in night-flying, so they went in daylight. They suffered dreadful losses against the Luftwaffe fighters. To deal with the fighters at all they had to fly in tight formation, of course - which meant that individual aircraft didn't aim their bombs at all, they just watched the formation leader and dropped when he did. That's the origin of the term 'carpet-bombing.'

Thankfully (given that there is no flak, and no Spitfires around!) the Israeli bombers can fly in daylight and aim their bombs carefully. And, of course, they can fix their position exactly by use of GPS etc. The Israeli PR people say that they are bombing specific targets (like the homes of resistance leaders etc.) and, by and large, I believe them. But the problem there is the 'radius of destruction,' 'collateral damage.' I saw the results of that effect often enough during and after the War - a bomb dropped on one house usually wrecked three or four neighbouring ones as well, even in the 1940s; and bombs are much more powerful now.

The 'bottom line' is, however accurate your bombsights are, you simply can't bomb populated built-up areas without killing or maiming large numbers of ordinary people; the vast majority of whom, in this case, will have nothing to do with organisations like Hamas.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2012-11-19 06:12:11 and read 5193 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 125):
The 'bottom line' is, however accurate your bombsights are, you simply can't bomb populated built-up areas without killing or maiming large numbers of ordinary people; the vast majority of whom, in this case, will have nothing to do with organisations like Hamas.

Which is why, under the Geneva Conventions and other international agreements, a) belligerents have a duty to base themselves and their activities away from civilian populations as much as possible. Using civilians as human shields while you are shooting from behind them is a war crime. And b) if your enemy hiding behind civilians and you can't get a clear shot at him without also hitting civilians, you can go ahead and take him out.

As far as UN treaties is concerned, when Israel takes out a terrorist commander or a missile battery and civilians get hurt, the atrocity was done by the militants, for not separating themselves away from civilian populations.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: jfk69
Posted 2012-11-19 06:56:25 and read 5198 times.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 117):
Utter Rubbish

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/336788

And there are many more examples!

From your own article:

"The Associated Press reports that the deadly incident occurred after Palestinian resistance fighters fired an anti-tank missile at an Israeli jeep patrolling Israel's border with Gaza. Four Israel Defense Forces (IDF) troops were wounded in the attack, one of them seriously.
Israeli troops then returned tank and machine gun fire into a residential area, killing four young men identified by the New York Times as Ahmed Mustafa Harara, age 17; his cousin Muhammad Osama Harara, also 17; Mattar Abu Alatta, 19; and Ahmed Kamil Dardasawi, 20. The four young men were among many who were gathered in a funeral tent who rushed to help after the first Israel shell struck. They were killed, and many more wounded, when a second round was fired."

The IDF is firing back into an area where they were fired upon. Guess what, if I am a civilian and I see a war going on, how about I stay the hell away from the scene. If HAMAS chooses to fire from residential areas then there will be collateral damage. This a plain and simple fact of war. The Israelis are not lining children up on the streets and executing them (i.e. the warsaw Ghetto). And before you start saying that 1 or 2 soldiers went rouge and did this, yes I am sure that is true. But in an Army of 200k, you will have a few psychos.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-19 10:56:38 and read 5181 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 103):
What they haven't achieved is an independent state. The division between Hamas and others is over how to achieve an objective

they can acknowledge and guarantee the existance of Israel once and forever and then the move is with Israel. The coward Arafat did npot sign the Camp David agreement, had he done so, we might not need to talk abvoiut violenve in the Middle east today.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 123):

Not much of a democracy when one many elements of one ethnic group don't want the other to have the right to vote. For the record Egypt and Jordan both have elected governments (with Jordan being a constitutional monarchy) and Hamas won municipal elections in Gaza.

Israel is a democracy with all checks and balances. Jordan works quite well as a constitutional monarchy and sdeserves respect. If Egypt becomes a real democracy remains to be seen. Calling aza , ruled by hamas, a democracy is a joke. I mean, of course you can get a good vote after killing the key people of the opposition. But that does not make it a democracy.

. .

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-19 11:33:25 and read 5183 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 128):
The coward Arafat did npot sign the Camp David agreement, had he done so, we might not need to talk abvoiut violenve in the Middle east today.

Do you actually know what he was supposed to give up in that agreement? It was utterly unfair to the Palestinian people and was not acceptable by any Palestinian.

Conditions as offered:
- The state would not have an army with heavy weapons,
- The state would not make alliances with other countries without Israeli approval and would not allow introduction of foreign forces west of the River Jordan.
- Israel would be allowed deploy troops in the Jordan Valley if Israel were to be threatened by invasion from the east.
- Israeli aircraft could overfly Palestinian airspace.
- Israeli would install early warning stations in the mountains overlooking the Jordan valley and other areas.
- Palestinians would control border crossings with Jordan and Egypt along with Israeli security observation.
- The Israelis would retain management over water sources in the West Bank while approving a limited quota to the Palestinians.
- Israel would lease areas in the Jordan Valley or maintain temporary sovereignty over them for up to 25 years.

In regards to refugees:

- Israel would not accept any legal or civilian responsibility for their displacement.
- Israel would allow the return of around 100,000 refugees under “humanitarian” grounds in the form of family reunions and considers such a step as compliance with UN Resolution 194.
- According to one source, the Palestinian State would be limited in the number of refugees it could absorb to half a million refugees according to a fixed timetable. This is not confirmed by other sources and is problematic, since a much larger number of refugees, well over a million, already live in camps in Gaza and the West Bank.
- An international fund would compensate refugees. Israel, the U.S. and Europe are to contribute. According to one source, this fund would also provide compensation to Jews who were forced to leave their possessions in Arab countries when they fled to Israel.

Jerusalem was also divided up in a matter more suitable to the Israelis, Israel would retain the privilege roads within Palestine in emergencies (...).

Very fair and autonomous. Would Israel give the same privileges to the Palestinians in Israel then?

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: caliatenza
Posted 2012-11-19 13:03:40 and read 5168 times.

my question is this..in some of the reports im reading about the fighting...they said kids are women are near the media offices of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, or very close by to rocket launching sites. What the hell are they doing there??!! Unless Hamas is purposely putting people there...i dont know. And there are other reports saying that a fair number of rockets are falling back into Gaza, which are killing and wounding some people.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: jfk69
Posted 2012-11-19 13:06:53 and read 5174 times.

Here is a fun one from those lovely journalists at the BBC.....Report first...facts later

http://bbcwatch.org/2012/11/19/bbcs-...son-tweets-malicious-fauxtography/

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2012-11-19 13:19:47 and read 5173 times.

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 130):
And there are other reports saying that a fair number of rockets are falling back into Gaza, which are killing and wounding some people.

Well Gaza is a small place with a large population. Not many places to hide, whoever you are unfortunetly ...

Quoting damirc (Reply 129):
- The Israelis would retain management over water sources in the West Bank while approving a limited quota to the Palestinians.

This is a very important point. Israel is basically controlling the water supply today and no doubt a continuation of this under a deal will not be acceptable to the Palestinians. Not really difficult to understand...

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: kachum
Posted 2012-11-19 13:35:06 and read 5175 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 120):
The little dirty secret that nobody ever talks about is how a lot of very pro-Israel Jews (call them "Zionists" if you like) will sit around at cocktail parties telling jokes about killing Arab babies. I know this because I have these folks in my family. I want to throttle them and say: "Don't you realize you sound like the very same Nazis that are supposedly the reason we needed Israel in the first place?"

Having been to such cocktail parties myself, I would dare to suggest that this is a pathology, not a norm.

But surely you will agree that the moment the Palestinians stop the violence there will be no more violence over there.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-19 13:59:22 and read 5165 times.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 127):
From your own article:

Sorry, misunderstood you, therefore posted wrong link.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 112):
As mush as it may not look like it the Israelis are not targeting civilians, they are going after Hamas targets.
Quoting caliatenza (Reply 130):
my question is this..in some of the reports im reading about the fighting...they said kids are women are near the media offices of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, or very close by to rocket launching sites. What the hell are they doing there??!! Unless Hamas is purposely putting people there...i dont know. And there are other reports saying that a fair number of rockets are falling back into Gaza, which are killing and wounding some people.

Hamas might be the intended target in Gaza by the IDF, but with a land mass size of only 136sq miles or (360 sq km) it is not t0 difficult to see how lots of innocent victims, will also become targets, only because of where they live, there are no other options like moving away.
So in a way they are going after civilians, and the Israelis know that full well.

Quoting kachum (Reply 133):
But surely you will agree that the moment the Palestinians stop the violence there will be no more violence over there.

I wouldn't be "sure" about that......

Not when this occurs from the Israeli side  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...er-attack-terrorist-us-palestinian

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: jfk69
Posted 2012-11-19 14:09:04 and read 5169 times.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 134):
I wouldn't be "sure" about that......

Not when this occurs from the Israeli side  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...er-attack-terrorist-us-palestinian

But you know what the difference is? The Israelis will actually handle this and put Justice to the situation instead of making these thugs heroes and martys and handing out candy at the site of innocent blood being spilled

from the article above:

"Jamal Julani, 17, from East Jerusalem, was admitted to hospital in a critical condition and placed on a respirator in the intensive care unit. A 19-year-old Jewish man was arrested, and further arrests were expected. A police spokesman described the incident as a brawl, and said it had no connection to settlers."

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-19 14:39:37 and read 5162 times.

Ugh... so many posts here, so many people either blindly defending one side or the other. THAT is why peace is so hard, neither side is owning up to their side's flaws

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-19 15:13:21 and read 5162 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 138):
Ugh... so many posts here, so many people either blindly defending one side or the other.
THAT is why peace is so hard, neither side is owning up to their side's flaws

Unfortunately very true.  I am sorry to say but I feel I need to defend the Palestinians - they are the weaker party in this (and guilty as well as the Israelis, but whether it's 50/50, 60/40, 70/30 or whatever - in the end it's irrelevant) and they do need their viewpoint presented also. Being brought up Roman Catholic (my ancestors on both sides of the family (several generations back though) are Jewish) I do feel somewhat Jewish, I do read lots of Jewish historic books and I do sincerely wish to convert (although it's a whole different thing, if they'd have me ), but even with all that mind I can not blindly agree with what Israel says and does. There - I'm outed now  

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-11-19 15:33:36 and read 5158 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 121):
As it happened, there were Italian prisoners mending the road and German prisoners trimming the hedges, both parties guarded by British soldiers.

Being snippy, the Brits were actually abusing the human rights of their prisoners by having them work on the infrastructure of their enemy??????

Quoting zkojq (Reply 123):
Quoting pvjin (Reply 79):
I remember how during conflict between Lebanon and Israel they "accidentally" shot well known UN bunker location with artillery, killing several peacekeepers.

Sadly several international leaders actually believed it.

Yes, the USA actually bombed the Chinese embassy during the Kosovo campaign, did we ever find out what they were actually trying to destroy in the embassy?

So to be clear, if the out-come of this latest round of violence is that the Palestinians get a state in the West Bank and Gaza, Jerusalem becomes the capital of both nations and Israel is allowed to exist that all will be well between the two sides and Israelis and Palestinians will start working together?

Who on either side will agree to the above, which world army will put troops in the region to ensure that the conditions are abided by, and before we get onto existing treaties, the mother of all agreements in the region is on shakey ground if we take everything coming out of Egypt at face value.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCol
Posted 2012-11-19 16:02:28 and read 5158 times.

Looks like Hezbollah wants to start another war from their end as well:

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Sec...s+south+Lebanon/7570317/story.html

This goes to show that Iran is driving this whole thing. The boom was being lowered on them, and their cronies in Syria are losing ground. This is their Plan B to buy more time.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-19 16:42:58 and read 5158 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 139):
Unfortunately very true.  I am sorry to say but I feel I need to defend the Palestinians

Yeah and ironically I actually support Israel. But I support Palestine as well (I feel that you can support both, you don't need to be a slave to either side.)

And honestly, I can really blame Israel for wanting to go into Palestine.

I know the Palestinians use propaganda, and I was not surprised at all to find out that some of the photos of dead children were from Syria.

Honestly, I don't have a good answer to Israel going into Palestine. All things aside, Hamas is launching rockets into civilian populations... no matter the circumstances, that is inexcusable and I can't chide Israel from wanting to go in.

I think going in would kill many people from both sides... the death toll from the rockets so far is 3 I believe. I can't think of a better solution to stopping the rockets but there may be ones out there. Because going in and killing hundreds (maybe thousands) of Palestinians while losing dozens/hundreds of Israeli troops is hardly optimal, considering their missile defense is working so well and casualties are low.

My main criticism is how Israel is treating the Palestinians outside this conflict. It enrages me to no end when I hear people brush away ALL the wrongs Israel has committed just because "Hamas launched some rockets" or "they launched rockets near a school." OK that is definitely a justification for something, but it hardly justifies the continuous settlement building and treating Palestinians like 2nd class citizens.


*** I still haven't got an answer... can anyone hear justify Israel's bad actions (when rockets aren't flying) like settlement building? They've done this for years, so "Hamas doing something bad today" doesn't justify anything. *** Anyone?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: kachum
Posted 2012-11-19 17:27:36 and read 5150 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 142):
*** I still haven't got an answer... can anyone hear justify Israel's bad actions (when rockets aren't flying) like settlement building? They've done this for years, so "Hamas doing something bad today" doesn't justify anything. *** Anyone?

Ok, I will bite. What is so wrong about settlement building in the area that you won in the defensive war, then offered to give it back right away in exchange for mere peace agreement and was flatly refused? By what standard on this Earth is this wrong?

[Edited 2012-11-19 17:28:23]

[Edited 2012-11-19 17:29:02]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: lewis
Posted 2012-11-19 17:43:48 and read 5149 times.

Quoting kachum (Reply 143):

The West Bank has never formally been annexed by Israel. It is a piece of land that an occupying force is controlling through military means, against the will of the people that live there. Even if Israel refuses to call it that, it is an occupied territory. You cannot settle occupied territory and displace the existing population. Wherever that has happened it has met international condemnation and for good reason.

Quoting kachum (Reply 143):
By what standard on this Earth is this wrong?

The UN, EU, Arab League (ok a bit biased), International Law. Whether or not some agree with it, the West Bank continues to be occupied territory in the eyes of most nations and international law. The US kind of condemns it, even if it just calls it "unproductive" in peace-talk terms.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-19 17:49:05 and read 5153 times.

Quoting kachum (Reply 143):

Thanks for responding. I will admit that I am not a subject matter expert and any person on this forum has the ability to sway my decision (I'm open to all ideas.)

Can you give more details? Was it as simple as "we'll give you back everything as long as you agree to peace?" No strings attached? Was this a while ago and times have changed?

I cannot speak for right after the wars, but it is my understanding that even to this day (or up until recently) the Israelis have continued to expand and create more settlements. This, IMO, has nothing to do with the situation after the war.

I'll be the first to admit I'm ashamed with the Palestinians' actions at many points in this debacle. But again, we can't use the situations of dozens of years ago to justify modern day actions.

Sorry for being vague, I'm trying my best not to shoot at the hip and make things up just to defend what I "think might be right," but at the same time, I cannot possibly take what you say as the truth without looking into it more and seeing what others have to see. It's harder this way but I feel like I'm not a right wing or left wing drone

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-11-19 17:49:33 and read 5151 times.

Quoting lewis (Reply 144):
The West Bank has never formally been annexed by Israel.

Are you saying that if Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza strip it would be ok to build?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: lewis
Posted 2012-11-19 17:57:12 and read 5148 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 146):

No, my whole point in bringing this up is that by not being annexed, the territory is in legal terms an occupied territory, therefore such settlements go against the Geneva convention, even if Israel doesn't see it that way. Either way, Israel could never annex a territory if the overwhelming majority of the population does not want it, at least not now that the demographics haven't been altered as much as what would be needed.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: caliatenza
Posted 2012-11-19 18:18:59 and read 5148 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 145):

The settllements need to go...thats the main thing. If the Palestinians can some find a way to make sure that the violence wouldnt start up after they got their state, then i think things will be fine. Both sides need to realize that either one of them is gonna pack up and leave so they need to live together!

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: kachum
Posted 2012-11-19 18:31:34 and read 5147 times.

In 1967 after the war, Israel offered all territories gained in the war back in exchange for the recognition and piece treaty with arab countries. The Arab League responded with The Khartoum resolution: no piece, no recognition. One needs to look at the settlement building in that context, that is how it started.
Also, settlement building does not equal the displacement. In fact, Israel prevented the displacement. The population of the West Bank was about to flee, fully expecting to be massacred - that is what they would do if the things turned out the other way. But Moshe Dayan and company thought 'We are going to show the whole world the example how we will treat these people and we will win their hearts and minds'. So they actually took steps to prevent the population of the West Bank from fleeing to Jordan. Look how well it has worked for them so far

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-19 18:42:03 and read 5151 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 142):
OK that is definitely a justification for something, but it hardly justifies the continuous settlement building and treating Palestinians like 2nd class citizens.

Exactly right, IMO, DeltaMD90. I think myself that we are facing something that has never happened before; literally 'a war without end.'

In the case of WW2, that really did just about 'end the day it ended.' There was next to no bitterness between the two sides. Further, there were virtually no attempts at setting up any sort of 'resistance movements' - the Germans (the 'West Germans' anyway) were only too grateful that the US and Britain 'occupied' them so quickly (the alternative being Soviet Russia). Within weeks, urgently-needed food supplies were pouring in, and plans were being made for 'reconstruction' of Germany's ruined economy.

But I think we probably all feel in our hearts that when this latest one-sided 'war' peters out, Israel will make no attempt to provide emergency aid or help with 'reconstruction.' The UN will no doubt do what it can, but that won't amount to much. The Palestinians in Gaza will go on 'living' - if you can call it that - in their ruined enclave, and make the best of a bad job, putting up with a few more ruined buildings which they can't get the resources to repair. And the Israelis will go on maintaining their vice-like grip on Gaza's borders, blockading the place by land and sea, cutting Gaza off from virtually all contact with the outside world.

Thanks to zkojq (Reply 123) we can all expect, also, that the 'slow but steady' forcible annexation of Palestinian land in the rest of the area west of the Jordan will continue too. I'd recommend anyone who hasn't yet watched this video he posted to have a good look at it:-

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d95_1182673079

Until I saw that I've been more or less assuming that the gradual annexation of more and more Palestinian territory on the West Bank was being planned and carried out by the Israeli government and the Army; but that video is convincing proof that it is the ordinary Israelis - many of them, presumably, recent immigrants - who are doing the job of driving out the native population; up to and including physical attacks on Palestinians, including children - while the army looks on and makes no attempt to intervene........

As to how anyone can sort out this mess, starting from here, I must admit that I'm 'fresh out of ideas.' In any other country, the United Nations would probably 'intervene'; but that would require nothing short of deposing the current Israeli government, putting the whole place under military occupation, and spending many years implementing the necessary reforms. Only the United States has the resources necessary to do that - and I can't see Obama (or any future US president) ever authorising anything of the kind.

So it looks as if the 'immolation' of the Palestinian people will just go on and on.......... and all we'll be able to do is watch it on the TV news - and, of course, contribute to the odd thread about it............  

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-19 18:47:13 and read 5155 times.

Quoting kachum (Reply 149):
In 1967 after the war, Israel offered all territories gained in the war back in exchange for the recognition and piece treaty with arab countries.

Weasel formulation.

Israel was prepared to return the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt and the Golan Heights to Syria, in return for signed peace treaties. Separate negotiations would then be conducted regarding the future of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and the refugee issue.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-19 18:48:31 and read 5159 times.

Quoting kachum (Reply 149):
In 1967

Well this is a HUGE red flag. How can we possibly apply what the Palestinians did *45* years ago to today???

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-19 18:53:57 and read 5158 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 145):
Was it as simple as "we'll give you back everything as long as you agree to peace?" No strings attached? Was this a while ago and times have changed?

If only.
He makes it sound like that....
Israel refused to give back lands unconditionally



Quoting kachum (Reply 149):
Israel offered all territories gained in the war back in exchange for the recognition and piece treaty with arab countries.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 145):
Can you give more details?

A short summation of what occurred in the 67 war

http://www.ourtimelines.com/zsixdaywar.html

And another article about Israeli settlements since the 67 war

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=41526

DeltaMD90 you will note, that settlement building has expanded under every Israeli Government since the 67 war, so not good history with the Palestinians there.

[Edited 2012-11-19 18:54:50]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: kachum
Posted 2012-11-19 19:15:50 and read 5163 times.

How can it possibly apply? In every possible way. The same way it applies in any other such conflict in the history. Acts have consequences. Several times Israel was attacked by conventional military force and it gained control of some territory as a result, fair and square. They should just annexed it right there and then in 1967 on the principle of "Don't f..k with me'.
But they didn't and are willing to negotiate, but 'you got to ask me nicely'

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: caliatenza
Posted 2012-11-19 19:16:08 and read 5181 times.

Israeli Air Force Ensures Area is Clear of Civilians Before Striking Terrorists

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=G6a112wRmBs

If Hamas wants to fight..they should come out and fight like men...and not hide behind women and children and other non combatants.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: caliatenza
Posted 2012-11-19 19:19:04 and read 5186 times.

and this one too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgHyT3FzTF8

the IAF aborts a strike when they see civilians walking near a target.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-19 19:23:21 and read 5185 times.

Quoting kachum (Reply 154):
How can it possibly apply? In every possible way

No, I do not buy that at all. Circumstances can change in a matter of days, try 45 years.

How does the reluctance of Palestinian leaders back then (who are probably all dead/retired by now) to achieve peace with the Israeli leaders (who are also probably all dead/retired by now) justify the settlement development in the last few years??

Unless I'm not quite getting what you are saying, I find this justification pretty weak (that's an understatement.) I could go on but I think you understand what I'm trying to say. Am I misunderstanding you?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: lewis
Posted 2012-11-19 19:28:53 and read 5190 times.

Quoting kachum (Reply 154):
They should just annexed it right there and then in 1967 on the principle of "Don't f..k with me'.
But they didn't and are willing to negotiate, but 'you got to ask me nicely'

The reason Israel has not annexed those territories is because they can't, unless you know of a way that would not involve exterminating the local population or displacing them all at once, which would create issues internationally. I would also go as far as to say that Israel did not want to annex those territories. You do realize that annexing these territories officially would require Israel to give citizenship and full rights to all Palestinians living there, right? This wouldn't really be a step forward towards a fairly homogenous Jewish state that is Israel and it would not allow Israel to go around demolishing the homes of some citizens to build for others. The whole status quo with the Palestinian territories has nothing to do with compassion or negotiation but is there to serve specific Israeli interests. The only role this situation plays in negotiations is the carrot on a stick.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-19 19:31:56 and read 5196 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 138):
Ugh... so many posts here, so many people either blindly defending one side or the other. THAT is why peace is so hard, neither side is owning up to their side's flaws

  the sad truth.
How about we send you to Israel to negotiate this?   that may be good  

Apparently, according to news, Israel is going to initiate, or has initiated, a ground attack sometime soon.

Well then.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: caliatenza
Posted 2012-11-19 19:42:53 and read 5190 times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWJFC98jPrQ&feature=related

The Vice Guide to the Gaza Strip. I think this was posted on here before, but nonetheless, its interesting.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-19 20:27:27 and read 5190 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 128):
they can acknowledge and guarantee the existence of Israel once and forever and then the move is with Israel.

Calling for negotiations based on the 1967 Borders, as both the PLO and Hamas have repeatedly done is effective recognition of Israel. What they have not done is accept a wording that includes "a Jewish State". Let me ask you, does the law in Germany simply ask would-be citizens to swear that they respect the Constitution and will abide by the laws, or does it insist on including "Germany is an Aryan State." I don't ask that in order to offend but to point out that if anyone insisted upon such wording there would be outrage. Yet substituting the word "Germany" for "Israel" and "Aryan" for "Jewish" and suddenly it is acceptable.

There has been a lot of talk about Hamas placing people at risk because they have media offices and rocket sites in populated areas. Some facts.
1) The US maintained a base at Dawes Hill, High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire that was the control centre for cruise missiles deployed in Western Europe. In the event of war it would have been a target for the Russians. It was in a built-up area near a Girls' School (Wycombe Abbey School) and a major hospital. I know this for a fact because I lived a few metres away. No problems there with basing military installations among a civilian population.

2) When the British deployed troops in Northern Ireland, the army bases were in built up areas near schools and hospitals. Again no problems there with basing military installations among a civilian population, although I do recall the British press fulminating about the cowardice of the IRA setting off bombs "at hospitals".

3) In the middle of a prosperous street stands a house bristling with antennas. Obviously some serious communications are conducted here in this residential area of Amman. The house in question? The US Embassy.

None of this justifies Hamas placing rocket sites in civilian areas but it does question an apparent double standard displayed by some. One can hardly isolate Hamas for criticism when what they are doing is common practice in countries usually regarded as civilised. But of course the criticism is a deflection from the real issue - the denial of the right to self-determination of the Palestinian people.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: zkojq
Posted 2012-11-19 20:38:10 and read 5186 times.

Lots of interesting stats compiled by The Economist:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/pomeg...te/2012/11/israel-and-palestinians

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 128):
Israel is a democracy with all checks and balances. Jordan works quite well as a constitutional monarchy and sdeserves respect. If Egypt becomes a real democracy remains to be seen. Calling aza , ruled by hamas, a democracy is a joke. I mean, of course you can get a good vote after killing the key people of the opposition. But that does not make it a democracy.

I never said it was a perfect democracy, by any means. It would have certainly been preferable for Fatah to win.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 142):
Yeah and ironically I actually support Israel. But I support Palestine as well (I feel that you can support both, you don't need to be a slave to either side.)

I don't think supporting either side is mutually exclusive. I think it is certainly in Israel's long-term interest to support a viable Palestinian state. I think it is in Palestinian people's interest to have an Israeli state that isn't fearful of its neighbors, near and far.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 142):
I can't think of a better solution to stopping the rockets but there may be ones out there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome
Not perfect, but its development is making it better and better.

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 148):
Both sides need to realize that either one of them is gonna pack up and leave so they need to live together!

Well said.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 150):
but that video is convincing proof that it is the ordinary Israelis - many of them, presumably, recent immigrants - who are doing the job of driving out the native population; up to and including physical attacks on Palestinians, including children - while the army looks on and makes no attempt to intervene........

Lots more similar videos on Youtube, though many of them are quite distressing to watch. Very sad how some people see themselves as better than those around them and as such entitled to the land, purely because of the blood that runs through their veins. They see little irony in that the people who they want to displace are generally born close by while many of them (the settlers) were born thousands of kilometers away.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 157):
No, I do not buy that at all. Circumstances can change in a matter of days, try 45 years.

According to this, the median age of those in Palestinian territories is 20.9 years. Therefore 45 years ago most of them had yet to be born.
http://world.bymap.org/MedianAge.html

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 160):
The Vice Guide to the Gaza Strip. I think this was posted on here before, but nonetheless, its interesting.

   I watched that a few months back. I really like Vice's investigative stuff from remote parts of the world, if you look on their Youtube channel you will find a really interesting video on North Korean quasi-slaves working deep in the Siberian forests.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: powerslide
Posted 2012-11-19 20:47:18 and read 5193 times.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 123):
And Palestinians don't? Does the bombing during the night of build up areas/civilian neighborhoods and refugee camps not count as acts of terror?

Those bombings are precision strikes, not random attacks against random civilian targets. Every bomb strike has a purpose and a target. Hamas randomly launches rockets into Israel without care or target, trying to inflict as much damage as possible to non-military, civilian targets. This constitutes terrorism.

Quote:
Personally, I'd like the Palestinians to abandon rockets in favor of a proper air defense system to keep out Israeli F-16s, Herons and other military aircraft. Unfortunately they aren't exactly rolling in cash, so any air defense system would have to be donated.

Palestinians, and Arabs for that matter, fighting Israel in a conventional war would be suicide. This is why they resort to guerilla tactics, because they don't have the knowledge and discipline to fight "clean" and by international rules. Overall, there is no way for Israel to "win" this in any conventional military sense. The hatred upon which organizations like Hamas and Islamic Jihad feed is deep and strong. Thousands of silly, ill educated, hopeless young men will line up for a chance to kill Jews. It is possible, even likely, that yet again, the Arabs will find a new and exciting way to "lose" this battle, but Israel can't win it.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-11-19 21:36:27 and read 5184 times.

Quoting kachum (Reply 143):
Ok, I will bite. What is so wrong about settlement building in the area that you won in the defensive war, then offered to give it back right away in exchange for mere peace agreement and was flatly refused? By what standard on this Earth is this wrong?

Every international agreement on the Israel-Palestine peace process has been firm on the fact that Israel's settlements in the West Bank must at minimum be frozen, with no new construction. Is it technically illegal for Israel to keep expanding existing settlements and building new ones? Perhaps not, but it definitely shows that the Israeli government isn't really interested in reaching a viable solution.

The settlements are land grab mechanisms, plain and simple. And they shouldn't be tolerated by anyone who truly thinks that a two-state solution is the best way to go.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2012-11-19 21:53:33 and read 5190 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 161):
What they have not done is accept a wording that includes "a Jewish State". Let me ask you, does the law in Germany simply ask would-be citizens to swear that they respect the Constitution and will abide by the laws, or does it insist on including "Germany is an Aryan State."

For the same reason countries are named "Islamic Republic of...." There are countries where Islam is part of the constitution. There are countries where Christianity is part of the constitution. And there is a country where Judaism is part of their consitution. And thats the crunch, Judaism is more than 4000 years old and is not going anywhere. Religion for each side is not going anywhere, it is far more than a belief system and there can be no amicable compromise the way things are. The only solution is for the UN or the worlds nation collectively to set the borders like in 1967 but enforce handover and maintain a peacekeeping force.

But it will not happen, because the USA with the Christian right influence support the Jewish cause, because it is part of the Christian scripture too. And the rest of the world actually probably doesnt really care that much, as long as no one pisses off Iran...

My 2c

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-19 22:04:43 and read 5194 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 163):
Palestinians, and Arabs for that matter, fighting Israel in a conventional war would be suicide. This is why they resort to guerilla tactics, because they don't have the knowledge and discipline to fight "clean" and by international rules.

Ummmmm

Speaking of international rules.....

Who broke the Geneva, and used white Phosphorous bombs against the Palestinians, 3 years ago in Gaza ?

Don"t talk to me about the IDF fighting clean, they can play dirty too.

After strenuously denying it a first, the Israeli Gov finally admitted, it did use 200 white phosphorous bombs.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israeli_...phosphorus_bombs_in_the_Gaza_Strip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfcHVBIyJyA

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-19 23:34:38 and read 5187 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 129):
Do you actually know what he was supposed to give up in that agreement? It was utterly unfair to the Palestinian people and was not acceptable by any Palestinian.

wrong attitude. See what they would have gained and still can gain once they have jumped over that stick.

Peace and prosperity. Simple as that.

If they don't, they will drive donkey carts forever.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-11-20 01:30:49 and read 5186 times.

Quoting kachum (Reply 132):
Having been to such cocktail parties myself, I would dare to suggest that this is a pathology, not a norm.

I would agree, but it is a shockingly common pathology. And Jewish extremists are the scariest of all because they are so calmly certain. Christian extremists are irate and yell and scream...and to me it seems a bit insecure. Jews act as if their extremism is an "of course!"

I am not saying that Jewish extremists are "common," but they do make up maybe 10% of the population, they control the government and there are lesser extremists who still hate Palestinians enough to find common ground with the extremists.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-20 02:27:41 and read 5186 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 160):
by international rules.

Which rules would they be?

Although Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Conventions I-IV those conventions are only "binding" in instances of armed conflict, whether war has been declared or not, between states that are parties to the Conventions.

Palestine is not a signatory, despite in 1989 having written that it wishes to adopt the Conventions I-IV. However that request was turned down by the Swiss Federal Council "due to the uncertainty within the international community as to the existence or non-existence of a State of Palestine". A consequence of this is that civilians in the occupied territories are not classified as "protected persons". This is what allows Israel, in defiance of all normal protocols, to simply evict people from their homes without compensation.

The fact that the US has threatened to veto any request by Palestine for recognition of Statehood means that Palestinians will continue to be without protection.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-20 03:17:43 and read 5180 times.

Finally looks as if a ceasefire is imminent - announcement probably on Wednesday. It's customary, in diplomacy, for the 'top people' (Clinton and Ban in this case) not to take a visible 'leading part' in negotiations until a deal has been done:-

"US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is set to arrive in Israel Tuesday night. Clinton will meet with Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu on Wednesday, according to a source.

--------------------

"Ban spoke at a news conference in Cairo after talks with Arab League chief Nabil Elaraby. Later on Tuesday, the UN secretary-general will travel to Israel for talks with Netanyahu."


http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=292664

I'd expect that the Gazans will agree to quit firing rockets. Hopefully the Israelis will agree to lift the land and sea blockade.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-20 03:56:39 and read 5184 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 167):
I'd expect that the Gazans will agree to quit firing rockets. Hopefully the Israelis will agree to lift the land and sea blockade.

To import ship loads of Iranian medium and long range missiles? The Palestinians would need a couple of decaeds of self imposed peacefulness to earn that kind of trust from Israel.

But they can start with it right now, would be great for all involved.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-20 06:15:39 and read 5180 times.

If Al-Arabiya (and The Australian) have got it right (they're both pretty reliable), it looks as if the only thing that has been agreed so far is indeed just a basic ceasefire. But subsequent negotiations will focus on Israel lifting its blockade, and allowing road access, in return for an end to arms imports via Egypt:-

"The first stage would be the end of bombing and rocketing: Israel would agree to end its aerial and naval bombing of Gaza and Hamas would agree to end rocket fire into Israel.

"The second stage would involve addressing longer-term issues such as Israel allowing free movement through its crossing and lifting its blockade of the strip.

"In return, Egypt would not allow weapons into the Gaza Strip through its shared border. The Israeli cabinet met yesterday to discuss the proposal."


It does begin to look as if, as I suggested earlier, Netanyahu has realised that the air assault has probably gained him support in the forthcoming election, but that the inevitable 'dead and wounded' losses involved in a ground offensive would almost certainly count heavily against him:-

"Mr Meshaal told a news conference in Cairo that Hamas would fight a ground war if it was started, but claimed that Mr Netanyahu had reservations about launching an assault. "He can do it, but he knows that it will not be a picnic and that it could be his political death and cost him the (upcoming) elections," Mr Meshaal said."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-hold/story-e6frg6so-1226520696369

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: jfk69
Posted 2012-11-20 07:14:52 and read 5177 times.

Not sure how to post a picture but this was just posted by Anderson Cooper on twitter:

Anderson Cooper ‏@andersoncooper
Men dragging body behind motorcycle in #Gaza City. They were yelling he was a spy for Israel. http://instagr.am/p/SQXOBvEkLg/

Sure sounds like a democracy over there in Gaza, I bet a trial occurred.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-20 09:26:27 and read 5167 times.

What is Israel to do against the threat of open borders = the possibility of heavy weapons coming into Palestine? I do believe that is a legitimate threat and can't blame Israel for their worry.

I know the argument could be if they do this, there will be greater trust and the Palestinians wouldn't need to bring in rockets but even I think that's too hopeful.

I've been critical of Israel throughout this thread, but I'm not one sided... I do think they have legitimate concerns that need to be addressed...

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: SOBHI51
Posted 2012-11-20 10:17:13 and read 5164 times.

Seems some kind of cease-fire should have started 15 minutes ago.
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/20/wo...israel-strike/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-11-20 10:26:25 and read 5167 times.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 170):
Sure sounds like a democracy over there in Gaza, I bet a trial occurred.

Yeah, just like the gang of three men who beat up my friend's 5'0" mother in a store after 9/11 because she dared to wear her hijab.

Thuggery occurs in all societies and is not restricted to Arabs.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 172):
Seems some kind of cease-fire should have started 15 minutes ago.

Let us hope so.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: something
Posted 2012-11-20 11:32:36 and read 5165 times.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 170):
Sure sounds like a democracy over there in Gaza, I bet a trial occurred.

Not everyone has drones, you know.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-11-20 12:25:47 and read 5155 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 167):
I'd expect that the Gazans will agree to quit firing rockets. Hopefully the Israelis will agree to lift the land and sea blockade.

Well I guess same old same old, every agreement so far has always been the same.

Israel will stop firing, stones will still be thrown and shots fired across the borders, occasional missle will be launched which the Iron Dome system which was created for just this type cease fire will work, until one gets through, causes injury and damage and both side will have at it again.
Bet's are on to see if it will be another 4 year time frame.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-11-20 13:19:01 and read 5153 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 169):
If Al-Arabiya (and The Australian) have got it right (they're both pretty reliable), it looks as if the only thing that has been agreed so far is indeed just a basic ceasefire. But subsequent negotiations will focus on Israel lifting its blockade, and allowing road access, in return for an end to arms imports via Egypt:

Egypt has more or less admitted they cannot control what happens in the Sinai.

How are they ever going to guarantee no arms imports?

Smuggling will be impossible to control, IMHO.

All opening the borders will do is make the cost of legal goods fall, and free up more resources for the smugglers to use tp move illegal goods.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: jfk69
Posted 2012-11-20 14:03:12 and read 5162 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 173):
Yeah, just like the gang of three men who beat up my friend's 5'0" mother in a store after 9/11 because she dared to wear her hijab.

Thuggery occurs in all societies and is not restricted to Arabs.

Yup, getting beat up in a store is compared to being dragged through the streets after being executed. This time it was for possibly spying....Next time could be for being gay....the time after that could be for talking to the opposite sex in public.....oh wait, those all happened already.

Quoting something (Reply 174):
Not everyone has drones, you know.

Nope...but Hezbollah did.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/12/wo...signed-drone-into-israel.html?_r=0

" Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of the Lebanese militant group and political party Hezbollah, declared Thursday that his fighters had assembled and piloted a drone that flew 35 miles into Israel on Saturday, calling the flight an unprecedented achievement in “the history of the resistance.”

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-11-20 16:50:20 and read 5136 times.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 177):
Yup, getting beat up in a store is compared to being dragged through the streets after being executed.

The difference is honestly whether you're likely to get caught and prosecuted.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-20 17:05:34 and read 5127 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 171):
What is Israel to do against the threat of open borders = the possibility of heavy weapons coming into Palestine?
Quoting Revelation (Reply 176):
Egypt has more or less admitted they cannot control what happens in the Sinai.

How are they ever going to guarantee no arms imports?

The present situation is that Gaza is completely 'sealed off' to the west, north, and east. The Israeli Navy blockades the coast and allows no ships through; and the Israeli Army seals the northern and eastern borders, again allowing no-one (and nothing in the way of goods) through either way.

So the only access that Gaza has to the outside world is the (short, only about ten miles long) border with Egypt to the south. And that is only a single road, with huge delays at the immigration desk; and, 'by arrangement' with Israel, Egypt allows very little through in the way of goods - and definitely nothing at all by way of weapons.

So the only way for the Gazans to get many things in at all - even basic supplies like petrol (gasoline) - is via concealed smuggling tunnels in the desert, east of the official border crossing. The Egyptians periodically carry out 'sweeps' and close down any they find; but the Gazans, of course, just dig new ones.........

The net result of all this is that a high proportion of Gazans are living in abject poverty, and that most luxuries, and many necessities, are just plain unobtainable even by the few people with money to spare.

It stands to reason that Israel's policy of cutting Gaza off from virtually all contact with the outside world (even including the rest of what is left of Palestine) will have produced massive resentment among the people living there; and will have meant that for many young people, the only 'employment' open to them once they leave school is to join the 'resistance movement' and get paid to learn to fight........

All in all, there's no doubt in my mind that opening things up and allowing Gazans to have contact with, and trade with, the rest of the world, and lead more fulfilling lives, is the best way of reducing the risk of further armed conflict. Not increasing it.........

[Edited 2012-11-20 17:08:19]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-20 17:29:03 and read 5114 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 179):
All in all, there's no doubt in my mind that opening things up and allowing Gazans to have contact with, and trade with, the rest of the world, and lead more fulfilling lives, is the best way of reducing the risk of further armed conflict. Not increasing it.........

Fair enough, but you can't expect ALL weapon smuggling to go down. No matter the situation, there will always be people that hate the Israelis. How can Israel be assured no heavy weapons will be used against them? The notion that the Palestinians will be happier and less likely to join resistance movements is too kum-bay-ah-ish for me (and you know I'm hardly a zionist or anything)

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-20 17:50:13 and read 5101 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 180):
No matter the situation, there will always be people that hate the Israelis.

Since Israel is still bombing the s**t out of them as we post, I don't see how that can be avoided (in the short term, anyway)?   But Israel would do well to consider the way the Allies handled that problem in Germany after WW2 - by pouring in relief supplies, medical aid etc.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 180):
How can Israel be assured no heavy weapons will be used against them?

No problem, as far as I can see? The only way to move any such 'heavy' weapons is by ship or truck. Gaza only has two ports and there will only be two road crossings into the place, one from Egypt and one from Israel. So it looks as if there's a role there for the long-suffering 'UN observers,' but that would definitely 'do the trick.'

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: caliatenza
Posted 2012-11-20 18:05:42 and read 5089 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 168):
To import ship loads of Iranian medium and long range missiles? The Palestinians would need a couple of decaeds of self imposed peacefulness to earn that kind of trust from Israel.

But they can start with it right now, would be great for all involved.

Maybe the UN can keep a watch on the seas and borders?? I think Israel asked that either Fatah (PA) or Egypt be put in charge of policing Hamas

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-20 18:15:33 and read 5082 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 180):
No matter the situation, there will always be people that hate the Israelis.

This is possible. But it is also likely that if recognised and given legitimate power Hamas will police acts of violence. We can see this already in the West Bank. Following the commencement of Israeli air-strikes against Gaza there were demonstrations in the West Bank, partly against Israel but also directed at the Government of Mahmoud Abbas. The Palestinian Authority deployed the police to control those demonstrations with Palestinian security forces preventing protesters from reaching Israel's Al Jalame checkpoint near Jenin.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...8/west-bank-palestinian-gaza-abbas

Yet despite this willingness of the PA to police things on behalf of Israel the Israelis continue their policy of displacing Palestinians and expanding settlements. Such are the rewards of co-operation and it becomes understandable why there is resentment. In some instances hatred is irrational. In others it may be response to an underlying cause.

Whatever the immediate outcome of negotiations for a ceasefire, I think that Netanyahu may have benefited in two ways. First, he has boosted his chances of re-election by diverting attention from issues like housing, living costs and jobs. Second, whatever hopes that Abbas had of meaningful recognition at the UN have been scuppered.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-20 18:22:26 and read 5072 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 179):
The net result of all this is that a high proportion of Gazans are living in abject poverty, and that most luxuries, and many necessities, are just plain unobtainable even by the few people with money to spare.

Here is a list of goods banned by the Israelis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_a...wed_or_banned_for_import_into_Gaza

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 180):
How can Israel be assured no heavy weapons will be used against them?

I can think of one very good reason, this.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html

If the US redeployed its current aid to Israel, and instead pumped it into Palestine, then Im pretty sure most of the violence would stop (foot note) the Palestinians might require Israel to give back lands stolen from them in the past.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 183):
In others it may be response to an underlying cause.

Each and every time Israel attacks with such ferocious force, another wave of anti Israeli resentment is instilled into youths/children etc

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 181):
So it looks as if there's a role there for the long-suffering 'UN observers,' but that would definitely 'do the trick.'

Yes NAV20, I think that the old UN could earn its keep well by doing some work on this. Good Idea.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-20 19:02:16 and read 5047 times.

A new 'twist to the tale'?

"Hamas has blamed Israel for delaying a ceasefire in Gaza, as the death toll on both sides continues to rise despite an intense diplomatic push to end the week-long conflict.

"Earlier, furious behind-the-scenes diplomacy in Cairo, Jerusalem and Gaza looked to have brokered a deal to end the clashes, which have claimed more than 130 lives.

"Hamas announced that a ceasefire was imminent, but then cold water was poured on any immediate deal by an Israeli government spokesman.

"This morning a Hamas official told Reuters that the truce had been delayed because Israel had yet to respond to proposals, saying "we must wait until tomorrow".

"An Israeli diplomatic source told AFP that negotiations were ongoing while an Egyptian official told AFP that "the truce announcement is not expected tonight because we are still waiting for a response" from Israel."


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-2...fire-in-gaza/4383178?section=world

I'll bet that when Hillary Clinton got on the plane leaving Washington she was thinking that the USA basically ran the world? She won't be nearly as sure of that now..........  

My guess is that Netanyahu and his 'inner clique' have now realised that the likely outcome of this business is that Gaza will get much-increased contact wth the outside world, plus aid, relief funds etc. While all Israel will get is the blame for having killed or maimed several hundred Palestinians - and got a smaller number of Israelis killed - for no apparent gains whatever.........

Hardly the sort of 'outcome' any prime minister would like, less than two months from an election? No wonder he's dragging his feet.......and defying the United States.......

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-11-20 19:04:43 and read 5040 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 179):
It stands to reason that Israel's policy of cutting Gaza off from virtually all contact with the outside world (even including the rest of what is left of Palestine) will have produced massive resentment among the people living there; and will have meant that for many young people, the only 'employment' open to them once they leave school is to join the 'resistance movement' and get paid to learn to fight........

All in all, there's no doubt in my mind that opening things up and allowing Gazans to have contact with, and trade with, the rest of the world, and lead more fulfilling lives, is the best way of reducing the risk of further armed conflict. Not increasing it.........

Perhaps they should also try this with Iran?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-20 19:29:56 and read 5030 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 183):
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 184):

If I'm kinda reluctant to buy into this, well, optimal scenario, you know a great chunk of the country isn't. The notion that Hamas will become a policing force is very uncertain to say the least

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-20 19:49:16 and read 5012 times.

DeltaMD90, I'm no fan of Hamas myself - or of Netanyahu and Co. - but Clinton and the others can only work with the governments they have...........

If I've got the time difference right, it's just coming up to 06.00 in the Middle East? What the Army used to call 'sparrowfart,' when the military day began.

It will be VERY interesting to see whether the Israeli Air Force goes on bombing the Strip today, as it did yesterday. On the face of it, if they do, that will be flat defiance not just of international public opinion, but of the United States Government (which, after all, is the main supplier of the bombs they'll be using). And a complete 'slap in the face' for Secretary Clinton.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-20 19:51:16 and read 5007 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 185):
My guess is that Netanyahu and his 'inner clique' have now realised that the likely outcome of this business is that Gaza will get much-increased contact wth the outside world, plus aid, relief funds etc.

Not sure about this NAV

Snakes a slippery things, as we both know living on OZ  

I'm guessing Bibi has another idea in mind, but what, Elections...... ??

Maybe the fact that ALL opposition parties have rallied behind Bibi and his war in Gaza, and have suspended their public campaigning until things improve. Well, isn't the just swell for Bibi and his cohorts. He may as well swear himself back in as PM now and forget the elections.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...old-fire-while-gaza-fighting-rages

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 187):
The notion that Hamas will become a policing force is very uncertain to say the least

If they, the "Palestinian people" had a decent standard of living, in fact, if they had a "reason" for living at all, then Im sure Hamas wouldn't have too much policing to do

[Edited 2012-11-20 19:53:07]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-20 20:03:46 and read 4998 times.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 189):
Well, isn't the just swell for Bibi and his cohorts.

Not so sure, TheCommodore. He clearly hasn't 'won the war' in any decisive sense - maybe the voting public will conclude, over the next few weeks, that he more or less lost it? And the other parties will change their tune?

My Post 188 crossed with yours. It will be most interesting to see whether the 'Gaza-bashing' goes on, with Clinton actually there in the Middle East? That would be flat defiance of Israel's 'paymaster.'

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCol
Posted 2012-11-20 20:15:57 and read 4997 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 179):
and the Israeli Army seals the northern and eastern borders, again allowing no-one (and nothing in the way of goods) through either way.

  

Israel and Egypt heavily restrict travel and goods, but, up until now, the Gaza crossings on both sides have been open to essential goods (ie. food, gas, etc) and travel by special visas. I have Palestinian friends who have applied for and received visas to travel and study abroad numerous times. Visa applications are granted if allied governments, Churches, or large humanitarian organizations back them up in writing. The process takes about 12-18 months.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-20 20:28:07 and read 4995 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 190):
Not so sure, TheCommodore. He clearly hasn't 'won the war' in any decisive sense - maybe the voting public will conclude, over the next few weeks, that he more or less lost it? And the other parties will change their tune?

Well, your wiser, and older than me NAV   

So I'll be guided buy your good judgement of the matter, you might just be on to something there ?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 190):
It will be most interesting to see whether the 'Gaza-bashing' goes on, with Clinton actually there in the Middle East? That would be flat defiance of Israel's 'paymaster.'

Yes, wont it.

I suspect as you do, that it will.
Israel now realises that they can thumb there nose at US policy now. This started with the election of Obama, unfortunately, and has continued to get worse. For this reason alone, Israel will do all it can to hold "it over" the current adminstration
The US has dug such a hole for itself in this regard, its unrelenting support of Israel, time and time and time again. How many news articles start of by saying..... "The US strenuously supports Israel in defending its boarders" or some such quote. Continuously so.
But do we ever see an article from the US, saying "The US strenuously supports the Palestinians in there quest for statehood, and will do everything it can to help achieve this" ..... Never
Israel, now knows that the US cant retract this support, not now, not ever. Israel knows the way Washington works with Israel, hand in hand, this needs to stop, but then again, so do many things and I doubt this will be one of them.

Stay tuned I guess !

[Edited 2012-11-20 20:29:53]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-20 20:32:45 and read 4995 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 187):
that Hamas will become a policing force is very uncertain to say the least

Uncertain, true. But what is the alternative? More of the same?

The choices appear to be:
an all-out invasion designed to eliminate any potential organisation among the Palestinians that challenges Israeli dominance (a call already repeated by Avigdor Lieberman, among others);
expelling the entire population, once and for all (and this is a call made by several prominent Israelis); or
sit down and negotiate without preconditions with a real determination to achieve a just and equitable Two State solution. This appears to be something that neither Israel nor the Palestinians agree on, for different reasons. For all Israel's talk of an existential threat, they have the upper hand and no need to compromise. The Palestinians really have nothing to give as the Israelis have control anyway.

To the extent that Hamas arose independently it did so because a perceived strategy of appeasement to Israel failed to achieve anything but further humiliation. Abbas tried the route of sitting down, making compromises and when that failed he tried the UN path. That approach was also rebuffed with threats of withholding aid and the use of vetoes should the rest of the world think differently.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 190):
He clearly hasn't 'won the war' in any decisive sense

I don't think he actually needs to. He needs to appear tough and be prepared to take determined action but that doesn't necessarily mean a total victory over Hamas. Far from it. I think Israel actually "gains" from the presence of Hamas. It gives Israel a justification for the continued occupation and allows the expansion of "settlements". This would halt if a Two State solution became a reality. The occasional rocket fired is a small price to pay in this context.

Yes, there have been civilian deaths in Israel and every death is one too many. But the Economist allows us to see the picture behind the deaths. It reports the total number of Israelis killed by rocket, mortar or anti-tank fire from Gaza since 2006 as being 47. In comparison the number of Palestinians in Gaza killed by Israeli fire from April 1st 2006 to July 21st 2012 is 2,879. A further comparison: the number of people killed in traffic accidents in Israel in 2011: 384.

But to the hawks in Israel, the deaths of a handful of citizens, however regrettable, is more than compensated by the additional lebensraum that Israel acquires. These people (the hawks) simply do not want a Two State solution. Never have and never will. It doesn't matter what pieces of paper the Palestinians may be willing to sign, there will always be some pretext to break off any agreement.

In this situation the Palestinians can not win. Violence will get them nowhere because the Israelis have far superior fire-power. But the diplomatic path hasn't worked either. Neither Hamas with its rockets nor Abbas with his compromises and pleas to the UN have found any sympathy in the West. The Palestinians are the unfortunate victims of Europe's anti-Semitism.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: N537FX
Posted 2012-11-20 20:56:50 and read 4990 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 179):
via concealed smuggling tunnels in the desert, east of the official border crossing

If they can smuggle in weapons, (large and heavy rockets) then they also can smuggle in any food/material they want as well. No reason for people there to be "starving".

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: flanker
Posted 2012-11-20 23:26:38 and read 4949 times.

Masked gunmen publicly shot dead six suspected collaborators with Israel at a large Gaza City intersection Tuesday, witnesses said. An Associated Press reporter saw a mob surrounding five of the bloodied corpses shortly after the killing.A sixth corpse was tied to a motorcycle and dragged through the streets

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11...ody-through-streets/#ixzz2Cq8OVypC

[Edited 2012-11-20 23:27:27]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-11-21 02:41:45 and read 4898 times.

Executing their own citizens infront of these "innocent women and children" they use whenever it suits them, without any kind of trial and dragging corpses down the street behind motorbikes. Throwing opposition party members from the top of buildings, Executing homosexuals.. Deliberately targeting civilians with Missiles and "Bus bombs".. Deliberately putting their own families at risk by using homes/schools/hospitals as weapons caches..

Who would I rather live next to, Islamic crazies or Israelies. Easy choice, Gotta laugh when these modern day hippy lamers go on their crusade about "evil usa evil israel.. poor middle east boohooo". If you admire them so much go live next to Hamas and enjoy your short life. Before we get the whole its not "hamas" we feel sorry for its "the innocent civilians".. they elected hamas in full knowledge of what it is they represent.

Q the apologists.. zzzZZzzz

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-21 03:15:42 and read 4878 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 196):
Executing their own citizens infront of these "innocent women and children" they use whenever it suits them, without

There is one word for that : Barbaric

Gaza is not under democratic rule, Gaza is ruled by terrorists who kill and mutilate whoever is against them.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 196):
they elected hamas in full knowledge of what it is they represent.

th average people have little choice. If they do not vote or, worse, speak up against such terror regimes - see above.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: caliatenza
Posted 2012-11-21 03:18:36 and read 4877 times.

Well they just bombed a bus in Tel Aviv....I guess the IDF is going to roll into Gaza pretty soon.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-11-21 03:21:41 and read 4874 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 185):
Hardly the sort of 'outcome' any prime minister would like, less than two months from an election? No wonder he's dragging his feet.......and defying the United States.......
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 188):

DeltaMD90, I'm no fan of Hamas myself - or of Netanyahu and Co. - but Clinton and the others can only work with the governments they have...........

These two statements appear to be at odds with each other, in general they also go against the general thought here that the USA just cracks the whip and Israel falls in line.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 184):
If the US redeployed its current aid to Israel, and instead pumped it into Palestine, then Im pretty sure most of the violence would stop (foot note) the Palestinians might require Israel to give back lands stolen from them in the past.

Egypt was the second largest recipient of US aid in the Middle East, the recent Arab spring showed how much influence that bought. Additionally, the US has bases through out the region pumping funds into the local economies and also provides aid, to say that the region is pro-American pro-Democracy as a result of the spending is a bit much, today some Americans may even look at Libya with an eye different from their politicians in Washington.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-21 03:25:00 and read 4876 times.

Quoting N537FX (Reply 194):
If they can smuggle in weapons, (large and heavy rockets) then they also can smuggle in any food/material they want as well. No reason for people there to be "starving".

Extremists apparently think that rockets are more vital "food" than corn for their own women and children. As long as the majority of Palestinians give criminal organizations like Hamas their vote they shouldnt wonder that they are disliked worldwide. They are very unwise people. No matter how bad they are treated, they are unable to notice that much of it, if not most is due to their OWN behavior.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-21 03:27:11 and read 4877 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 197):
Gaza is ruled by terrorists who kill and mutilate whoever is against them.

I hope it's fair to point out that, in terms of bombs and missiles, the current 'score' from bombs and missiles, in killed, is 139 Gazans, 5 Israelis so far? I don't know the numbers of 'mutilated' on both sides but I expect that the proportions are about the same?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: pvjin
Posted 2012-11-21 04:19:59 and read 4864 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 196):
Gotta laugh when these modern day hippy lamers go on their crusade about "evil usa evil israel.. poor middle east boohooo".

So just because of Hamas and other radical organizations like this doing bad things we should automatically accept all the evil things done by United States and Israel? Hah, that kind of thinking is totally absurd. Both sides are at fault.

Besides, had Israelis been fair towards ordinary people of Gaza I doubt Hamas would get that much support. Violence committed by Israelis has also fed violence in Gaza, that's just obvious for anyone who isn't biased because of religious or whatever other reasons.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-21 04:22:48 and read 4866 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 201):
I hope it's fair to point out that, in terms of bombs and missiles, the current 'score' from bombs and missiles, in killed, is 139 Gazans, 5 Israelis so far? I don't know the numbers of 'mutilated' on both sides but I expect that the proportions are about the same?

I think it is fair to point out, that, without the currect missile attacks, before Israel hit back, there would not be a single casualty on both sides.

I think it is also fair to point out, that a Palestinian who spied for the Hamas or bombed buses in Isael, would receive a fair trial.

Last but not least, it is fair to point out that the number of casualties on the Palestinian side could be greatly reduced if missile launch sites and other military equipment is kept out of residential areas, away from hospitals, schools and kindergartens.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: zkojq
Posted 2012-11-21 04:55:46 and read 4826 times.

Interesting to see that some of Israel's latest targets include a bank and a media center. So much for not targeting civilians. Al Jazeera's Gaza beaurau was damaged. Quoting powerslide (Reply 163):
Those bombings are precision strikes, not random attacks against random civilian targets.
The statistics speak for themselves; over 100 Gazans killed in the last week from Israeli bombs, with only 4-5 Israelis killed over the same period.

Killing civilians (in particular children) =/= to self defense.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 168):
To import ship loads of Iranian medium and long range missiles? The Palestinians would need a couple of decaeds of self imposed peacefulness to earn that kind of trust from Israel.

What are they supposed to do in the mean time with the inability to have a productive economy (export goods)? Sit around feeling bitter and getting angry at Israel? Give them a productive and open economy so the average Gazan can have a job, earn money, save up and spend it on whatever, improve their welfare (and that of their family) and generally have less time to feel sorry for themselves/hard done by. As it happens, one of the best ways to wean people off fundamentalist/extremist religious ideas and beliefs is with western convinces such as computers, mobile phones, tablets, xboxes etc etc... Having such an economy is pretty much impossible when you are blockaded in as Gaza is.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 179):
It stands to reason that Israel's policy of cutting Gaza off from virtually all contact with the outside world (even including the rest of what is left of Palestine) will have produced massive resentment among the people living there; and will have meant that for many young people, the only 'employment' open to them once they leave school is to join the 'resistance movement' and get paid to learn to fight........

All in all, there's no doubt in my mind that opening things up and allowing Gazans to have contact with, and trade with, the rest of the world, and lead more fulfilling lives, is the best way of reducing the risk of further armed conflict. Not increasing it.........

I was about to say pretty much exactly this, but you beat me to it.   Everyone (in particular Israel) would benefit from Gaza having an open economy. Currently Gaza's unemployment rate is above 40%.

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 182):
Maybe the UN can keep a watch on the seas and borders??

   I can understand Israel's fears about weapons being shipped in and because of that cargo shipments to Gaza will have to be monitored for years to come. I think the above idea is probably the best solution, so long as import restrictions are relaxed. The current situation with Israel performing the above tasks isn't working.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 184):
Each and every time Israel attacks with such ferocious force, another wave of anti Israeli resentment is instilled into youths/children

   It is extraordinarily sad actually. Each time a bomb explodes not only are a bunch of people killed and injured, but many seeds of hatred are also planted.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 193):
I think Israel actually "gains" from the presence of Hamas. It gives Israel a justification for the continued occupation and allows the expansion of "settlements".

Sadly that is probably true.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 202):
So just because of Hamas and other radical organizations like this doing bad things we should automatically accept all the evil things done by United States and Israel? Hah, that kind of thinking is totally absurd. Both sides are at fault.

 checkmark 

Quoting pvjin (Reply 202):
Besides, had Israelis been fair towards ordinary people of Gaza I doubt Hamas would get that much support.

Exactly; desperate situations make people do desperate things. It doesn't mean such things are right, but it means they happen. Electing Hamas was certainly a mistake and the Palestinians will sadly be paying the price for this for a long time.

[Edited 2012-11-21 05:02:01]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-21 04:57:52 and read 4827 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 203):
I think it is also fair to point out, that a Palestinian who spied for the Hamas or bombed buses in Israel, would receive a fair trial.

Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Israel uses Administrative Detention Orders where it can hold "suspects" without trail for indefinite periods and has used orders in cases where a trial might be seen as a security risk as it might reveal the identity of informers or infiltrators. Within Israel ADOs can be issued by the Interior Minister for a period of up to six months but can be extended without a judge being involved. In the occupied territories an officer in the IDF can issue an ADO.

According to B'Tselem in January 2012, 309 Palestinians were held without criminal charges:
- 16 Palestinians have been held without charge for 2–4.5 years
- 88 have been held for 1–2 years
- 80 have been held for 6 months–1 year

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-11-21 05:03:46 and read 4825 times.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 204):
Killing civilians (in particular children) =/= to self defense.

Snore bore, Typical aplogist. Pick and choose, Hamas said it carried out a bomb attack on a bus full of "Innocent civilians". Hamas executed 6 "innocent civilians" in the street then paraded the corpses through the streets. Hamas hides its rockets in schools/hospitals and homes .. areas full of your beloved "innocent civilians" putting them all in danger. Modern day hippies are so cliche. Pick n choose, Pick n choose, Amusing stuff.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-11-21 05:07:35 and read 4812 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 205):
According to B'Tselem in January 2012, 309 Palestinians were held without criminal charges:
- 16 Palestinians have been held without charge for 2–4.5 years
- 88 have been held for 1–2 years
- 80 have been held for 6 months–1 year

Where as Palestinian justice is nice and swift, 10 Militants, a street corner, some mobile phones and a quick death regardless of guilt.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: pvjin
Posted 2012-11-21 05:13:38 and read 4800 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 206):
Hamas executed 6 "innocent civilians" in the street then paraded the corpses through the streets.

If they were indeed Israeli spies or aided Israelis they were by no means innocent.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 206):
Hamas hides its rockets in schools/hospitals and homes .. areas full of your beloved "innocent civilians" putting them all in danger

Do they have much of a choice? Sure they can't do their stuff on open ground because of Israeli air superiority, and I have no idea if Gaza has that much industrial / other similar empty buildings lying around.

"Modern day hippies are so cliche. Pick n choose, Pick n choose, Amusing stuff."

Yea yea, everyone who oppose Israelis are hippies. Maybe your problem is just that majority of Palestinians believe in different god than you do.

[Edited 2012-11-21 05:17:42]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-21 05:25:06 and read 4783 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 207):
Where as Palestinian justice is nice and swift, 10 Militants, a street corner, some mobile phones and a quick death regardless of guilt.

Israel is ruled by the law, Gaza by Hamas.

A country with such nice neighbours may not have the luxury to adopt the same legal standards as Australia and Germany enjoy, at least not for terrorists caught.



Quoting zkojq (Reply 204):
Give them a productive and open economy so the average Gazan can have a job, earn money, save up and spend it on whatever,

How can an "open economy" work under a terrorist regime? How can an open economy work in a society that is unable to come to peace with it's next door neighbour? Throughout this thread I pity the Palestinians for the regime they have to endure. The biggest enemy of the Palestinians is not Israel, it is Hamas and other hardliner groups.

What happens to Palestinians who stand up against Hamas we are just discussing. It is a barbaric regime that gives a damn about their own people. A life does not matter at a fertility rate of between 5 and 6, That vicious circle must be broken, but that cannot be the job of the world or even Israel. Egypt and other Islamic states are obliged to act.



.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-21 05:26:42 and read 4783 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 199):
These two statements appear to be at odds with each other, in general they also go against the general thought here that the USA just cracks the whip and Israel falls in line.

You're entitled to your opinion. par13del, but the 'two statements' were on different subjects. I was saying that the USA was pressing Netanyahu to make peace and make concessions to the Gazans, which he wouldn't like. And I've never said that the USA is in a position to control all Israel's actions; we've known that ever since President Truman yielded to the pressures brought to bear by the 'Jewish Lobby' in 1948, and 'let Israel happen' against his own better judgment.

I still think, though, that in this case Israel will eventually fall in line and 'do what it's told'; probably within a week or so. But that's likely to require an intervention by Obama personally. I suspect that Clinton is out of her depth, and in any case her powers/terms of reference only extend to foreign affairs. Obama, on the other hand, can threaten to 'stop the money'...........

As it happens, our 'Newsradio' is just playing a BBC piece that says that the parties (including Israel) are actively 'in negotiation' and that the basic principles laid down by the Americans - a ceasefire, followed by more contact with the outside world for Gaza, provided that there are no more rockets and the border with Egypt is made more secure - are still in place. The 'fundamentals' are still in place - Netanyahu has to end the 'war' soon, the election is less than two months away now..........

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-21 05:26:54 and read 4784 times.

@ Giancavia "quick death regardless of guilt".

Stating what is the case does not imply acceptance of something that is equal or worse if carried out by someone else. A poster made a claim and I provided additional information. This does not imply condoning what somebody else does but I suppose in a blackwhite world the two are the same and therefore doubleplusungood. I'll leave those who prefer duckspeak to follow whatever Minitrue would have them do while I'll maintain my crimethink.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: EDKA
Posted 2012-11-21 05:44:29 and read 4771 times.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 204):
The statistics speak for themselves; over 100 Gazans killed in the last week from Israeli bombs, with only 4-5 Israelis killed over the same period.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 201):
I hope it's fair to point out that, in terms of bombs and missiles, the current 'score' from bombs and missiles, in killed, is 139 Gazans, 5 Israelis so far? I don't know the numbers of 'mutilated' on both sides but I expect that the proportions are about the same?

Oh the usual numbers game....

How many more Israelis need to die for this to become "fair" in your eyes? 10? 20? 100??

Yesterday there were two direct rocket hits in residential areas - one in Rishon le Zion, one in Ashkelon. No casualties, because people were in shelters. There are over million people constantly in and out of shelters over the last week. Should they not use the shelters to make up your "fair" numbers game?

The total disregard for the suffering for the Israeli population surprises me, as if until their suffering is comparable to the Palestinians, it does not matter.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 204):
What are they supposed to do in the mean time with the inability to have a productive economy (export goods)? Sit around feeling bitter and getting angry at Israel? Give them a productive and open economy so the average Gazan can have a job, earn money, save up and spend it on whatever, improve their welfare (and that of their family) and generally have less time to feel sorry for themselves/hard done by. As it happens, one of the best ways to wean people off fundamentalist/extremist religious ideas and beliefs is with western convinces such as computers, mobile phones, tablets, xboxes etc etc... Having such an economy is pretty much impossible when you are blockaded in as Gaza is.

I think yuo mean well (i actually also believe, that if ever peace is achieved there, it is in Israel's best interest to help Palestinians with their economy and growth - altough i do not see any peace solution happening any longer unforunately)

But you really need to open your eyes and see the reality on the ground. And the reality is that since Israel has pulled out of Gaza, there was no attempt whatsoever by Palestinians to somehow try and build on that. None... Instead they have chosen the route of confrontation. And remember there was no blockade back then, the decision is entirely theirs.

They have supported Hamas (which I am sure you know is listed as terrorist organisation by pretty much most the western world) to become their "elected" government, and what we see today is a direct result of that.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-21 06:07:51 and read 4754 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 208):
If they were indeed Israeli spies or aided Israelis they were by no means innocent.

even if, it does in no way justify brutal killings by a mob.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 208):
Do they have much of a choice?

yes, for Israel it does not matter much where they fire the missiles from. If Hamas and their sub-organisations would give a rats ass for their own people they would put them up on open fields. Hiding military installations in civilian areas is intentionally. They want women and children getting killed.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2012-11-21 09:36:59 and read 4672 times.

Israel official: Sec. of State Clinton will announce 20:00 in Cairo on cease fire in Gaza

Ceasefire reached between Israel and Hamas – reports

Al Arabiya reports that Palestinian and Egyptian sources claim Hamas and Israel have agreed to end military operations in Gaza. Israeli sources confirm the truce, but specify that the blockade on Gaza will not be lifted, Al Jazeera reports.

­Palestinian officials also told Al Jazeera that Egypt will announce the agreement within two hours.

http://rt.com/news/hamas-israel-agree-ceasefire-271/

If they announce Cease fire.It means nothing unless Hamas adheres to it.

 Wow!

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-21 09:47:47 and read 4662 times.

One should not forget that
- the Israelis ONLY target militants, but accept (well, have to accept as the Palestinian militants prefer to hide behind their wife and kids) if some civilians are killed as collateral damage. Most killed though are militants.
- the Palestinians shoot at anybody REGARDLESS if military or civilian, but mostly kill civilians, and dont care at all.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: pvjin
Posted 2012-11-21 09:56:40 and read 4651 times.

Wrong, in the past Israelis have shown that they have no problem targeting also peacekeepers and others who could be threat to them by exposing their war crimes.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-11-21 10:03:42 and read 4650 times.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 204):
Quoting caliatenza (Reply 182):
Maybe the UN can keep a watch on the seas and borders??

I can understand Israel's fears about weapons being shipped in and because of that cargo shipments to Gaza will have to be monitored for years to come. I think the above idea is probably the best solution, so long as import restrictions are relaxed. The current situation with Israel performing the above tasks isn't working.

The UN has been on the Israel / Lebanon border for millennia, and guess what, Israel and Hezbollah rolls over them, so I don't think the UN is a viable option in enforcing the peace in this situation.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 204):
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 184):
Each and every time Israel attacks with such ferocious force, another wave of anti Israeli resentment is instilled into youths/children

It is extraordinarily sad actually. Each time a bomb explodes not only are a bunch of people killed and injured, but many seeds of hatred are also planted.

It affects both sides equally, not sure we can pick a side whose young are not being instilled with fear and hatred.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 205):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 203):
I think it is also fair to point out, that a Palestinian who spied for the Hamas or bombed buses in Israel, would receive a fair trial.

Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Israel uses Administrative Detention Orders where it can hold "suspects" without trail for indefinite periods and has used orders in cases where a trial might be seen as a security risk as it might reveal the identity of informers or infiltrators.

I not sure this is moral equivalence, but I'll comment no further.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 210):
Obama, on the other hand, can threaten to 'stop the money'...........

If you know the system that is in place in the USA you would know that the president cannot cut-off the funds or even threaten to do so unless he has the full backing of the Congress and the Senate, he can certainely stop whatever discretionary funds are already under his control.
So an honest question, unless the backing is there, do you really believe the president would make such a threat when everyone knows it is a hollow one, his "power" on the world stage would be the only casuality.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-21 10:17:25 and read 4643 times.

Ceasefire apparently announced.....this happens too often over there....both sides quarrel for like, 2 or 3 weeks, then a cease-fire.


Let's hope the UN or someone prevents this crap from happening again   

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2012-11-21 10:29:17 and read 4640 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 218):
Ceasefire apparently announced.....this happens too often over there....both sides quarrel for like, 2 or 3 weeks, then a cease-fire.

Maybe we should stop insisting on a cease-fire and let them sort it out between themselves once and for all.

Just a thought...

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: pvjin
Posted 2012-11-21 10:47:53 and read 4637 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 219):
Maybe we should stop insisting on a cease-fire and let them sort it out between themselves once and for all.

Just a thought...

Yeah that would be okay but only if Palestinians were first given as good weapons and military & financial aid as Israel receives. After that they would be equal in military strength and it would be a fair fight.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2012-11-21 11:11:10 and read 4632 times.

Anyone have a link for Israel's red alert live feeds?

    

BREAKING : The Israeli Occupation Forces Broke the ( Fire Truce Agreement ) 15 Minutes after is was signed .. By Targeting a Building and a Farm in Northern Gaza Strip .. Several injuries Reported ..

facebook.com/updatefromgaza

I will believe it's all over when they send all reservists home.

[Edited 2012-11-21 11:21:48]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: jfk69
Posted 2012-11-21 12:44:42 and read 4581 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 221):
Anyone have a link for Israel's red alert live feeds?

    

BREAKING : The Israeli Occupation Forces Broke the ( Fire Truce Agreement ) 15 Minutes after is was signed .. By Targeting a Building and a Farm in Northern Gaza Strip .. Several injuries Reported ..

Looks like Hamas fired rockets afterwards as well.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4310174,00.html

And really, the Israeli Occupation force?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-21 14:12:16 and read 4551 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 199):
Egypt was the second largest recipient of US aid in the Middle East, the recent Arab spring showed how much influence that bought.

Glad you brought this up par13del.

Egypt is another shining example of how the US has propped up crony corrupt Governments for decades, without so much as a blink of the eye. It was only when the Egyptian citizens themselves had had enough of the BS, that the US had to do a back flip.

Quoting na (Reply 200):
Extremists apparently think that rockets are more vital "food" than corn for their own women and children.

Well I guess this stands to reason ?
If you don't have anywhere to cook and eat your food, because you've been booted out of you house, and your land has been stolen, then what do you have to loose ?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 202):
Besides, had Israelis been fair towards ordinary people of Gaza I doubt Hamas would get that much support. Violence committed by Israelis has also fed violence in Gaza, that's just obvious for anyone who isn't biased because of religious or whatever other reasons.

Well said.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 203):
Last but not least, it is fair to point out that the number of casualties on the Palestinian side could be greatly reduced if missile launch sites and other military equipment is kept out of residential areas, away from hospitals, schools and kindergartens.

How do you manage that when the country (Gaza) is the size that it is ?

Quoting zkojq (Reply 204):
Interesting to see that some of Israel's latest targets include a bank and a media center. So much for not targeting civilians.

And a Police station

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 205):
Israel uses Administrative Detention Orders where it can hold "suspects" without trail for indefinite periods and has used orders in cases where a trial might be seen as a security risk as it might reveal the identity of informers or infiltrators. Within Israel ADOs can be issued by the Interior Minister for a period of up to six months but can be extended without a judge being involved. In the occupied territories an officer in the IDF can issue an ADO.

According to this article, and I quote, they can be held pretty much indefinitely.

"Administrative detention as described by the APSHRA is “a procedure that allows the Israeli military to hold prisoners indefinitely on secret information without charging them or allowing them to stand trial.” A documentary by the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, said prisoners under administrative detention are subject to torture, cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment."

http://dailynewsegypt.com/2012/09/22...ry-confinement-in-israeli-prisons/

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 206):
Hamas executed 6 "innocent civilians" in the street then paraded the corpses through the streets.

Who said they were innocent ?

Do you know something we all don't ??

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 209):
Israel is ruled by the law,

Yeah right. Laws that discriminate against ordinary people. good one !

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...an_Rights/human_rts_in_Israel.html

http://www.arabhra.org/hra/Secondary...clePage.aspx?SecondaryArticle=1499

http://www.itisapartheid.org/laws.html

Quoting EDKA (Reply 212):
How many more Israelis need to die for this to become "fair" in your eyes? 10? 20? 100??

Maybe as many as all the Palestinians who have died, Who knows ?

Quoting EDKA (Reply 212):
. There are over million people constantly in and out of shelters over the last week. Should they not use the shelters to make up your "fair" numbers game?

What are you talking about, at least the Israelis have shelters to go to.

Quoting EDKA (Reply 212):
But you really need to open your eyes and see the reality on the ground. And the reality is that since Israel has pulled out of Gaza, there was no attempt whatsoever by Palestinians to somehow try and build on that.

Ummm

How can they when the Israel Government stops basic building products from entering.

I think its you, who needs to open your eyes "on the ground" because this is fact and a VERY well known one.

Quoting na (Reply 215):
One should not forget that

You have seemed to have forgotten that Gaza is a very small place.
So anywhere the IDF fires its missiles, will be in a built up inhabit area.
Where you you suggest the civilians go ?

Quoting par13del (Reply 217):
It affects both sides equally, not sure we can pick a side whose young are not being instilled with fear and hatred.

Not sure if it is all that equal, especially from the Palestinian point of view.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 219):
Maybe we should stop insisting on a cease-fire and let them sort it out between themselves once and for all.

Just a thought...

Well, it the US is prepared to give as much military support to the Palestinians as they have in the past to Israel, should make for some interesting outcomes, I dare say.... just a thought.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 222):
And really, the Israeli Occupation force?

Yes really !

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...-give-up-land-held-by-idf-1.449909

[Edited 2012-11-21 14:16:58]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-21 15:36:26 and read 4509 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 220):
Yeah that would be okay but only if Palestinians were first given as good weapons and military & financial aid as Israel receives. After that they would be equal in military strength and it would be a fair fight.

One with many more deaths thats the only thing that would be sure. To call a war with equal strengths "fair" is theoretically right, but in reality an euphemism for largescale suffering, sorry. Wars were both sides had equal strengh were the ones with the highest death toll. Nations come and go in history. The weaker go under and finally assimilate to make a living, that has always been like that and is the only peaceful way. To stand against the tides forever proves only one thing - stupidity.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 223):
You have seemed to have forgotten that Gaza is a very small place.
So anywhere the IDF fires its missiles, will be in a built up inhabit area.
Where you you suggest the civilians go ?

At least not stay in the same house as a known terrorist leader. I know that Gaza is one of most densely populated places on earth, and a lragely forbidden place. Makes me wonder why (according to different sources) the average Palestinian woman gives birth to 4 or more children. Imho that cant be love for kids under such conditions. Sounds more like victims of the notorious concept of making the womb of the woman a weapon in itself. But that only makes living in overcrowded conditions worse. A ruthless concept.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 223):
Well I guess this stands to reason ?

If you don't have anywhere to cook and eat your food, because you've been booted out of you house, and your land has been stolen, then what do you have to loose ?

First, I havent heard about Palestinians dying from hunger in any sizable number as you are trying to say. And to still whine about a house "stolen" 3 or 4 decades ago doesnt sound like a good idea too. Germany has lost a lot of land due to an selfinflicted unjust war. Did displaced Germans commit any terrorist acts in Poland or Russia? If a bank has taken your money, would you still sue it 30 years later, or would you finally try to make the best of it? That said, of cause I agree Israel must hand back the occupied land as its not their legal possession. Logically that can only happen once its assured it wont be turned into a terrorist heaven, meaning the Palestinians must assure a lasting peaceful government enforcing the law against any terrorism.

As said earlier, both sides have to make compromises both sides are still too far away to openly think about. If the Palestinians keep trying to smuggle as many rockets into Gaza as before and use them against Israeli civilians, what else can Israel do than to destroy them to at least stop these attacks for some time. We´ll see this again in 2, 3 or 5 years I´m afraid. Both sides are too stubborn.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-21 15:39:25 and read 4510 times.

One particular paragraph caught my eye in this Al Zajeera report:-

"Under the ceasefire terms, Israel was to stop all aggression against the Gaza Strip from land, sea and air, including cross-border incursions and targeted killings.

"Palestinian factions were to cease all aggression from Gaza towards Israel, including rocket fire and attacks on the border.

"Twenty-four hours after the ceasefire takes effect, Israel will also be committed to opening of all border crossings and ease restrictions on movements of people and goods in and out of the enclave."


http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...t/2012/11/2012112117122494611.html

If that's true - that the Israelis are definitely committed to allowing freer movement in and out of Gaza - that's a tremendous step forward, IMO.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-11-21 16:22:50 and read 4488 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 225):
including cross-border incursions and targeted killings.

In recent times this targeting of specific individuals has been Israel's most feared weapon, I am not surprised that it is included in the cease fire, I just wonder how much Israel expects to get in return.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-21 16:32:05 and read 4495 times.

Quoting na (Reply 224):
whine about a house "stolen" 3 or 4 decades ago

See previous posts regarding current dispossession of Palestinians from their homes. This is not something that just happened 3 - 4 decades ago but it is a continuing process. See the Israeli plans for their so-called security perimeters (walls and fences) to totally enclose and isolate Palestinian villages. This is meant to ensure that no consolidated Palestine can emerge as the areas are non-contiguous. Whole swathes of the West Bank are out of bounds or have restricted access to the original inhabitants. This is today, in their own country, occupied by Israel. And in an area where the Palestinian Authority under Abbas has been trying the peaceful path of co-operation and diplomacy. So let's not just pretend that this is simply "whining".

Quoting na (Reply 224):
If a bank has taken your money, would you still sue it 30 years later, or would you finally try to make the best of it?

Jewish organisations are still pressing for compensation for crimes against Jewish people following the horrific events that took place in the 1930s and 1940s and no one seems to have an objection to that. Has the claim against SNCF in France been settled? And it is still an offence in some European countries to express unorthodox opinions about that period. Hey, in France it is even an offence to express certain views on events in 1919. Shouldn't everybody have grown up by now and just got on with it by now? Apparently not.

It seems that the world has different standards depending on who is doing what. The world demands that Hamas stop its actions. The world respectfully asks Israel to reconsider it settlement building. If Hamas refuses, the world strongly supports Israel's right to defend its (undefined) borders. If Israel respectfully tells the world it will allow further settlements, the world says nothing about the right of Palestinians to defend themselves from misappropriation. Double standards that are not in the least surprising.

[Edited 2012-11-21 16:52:37]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-21 17:58:50 and read 4449 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 227):
See previous posts regarding current dispossession of Palestinians from their homes. This is not something that just happened 3 - 4 decades ago but it is a continuing process.

Agree entirely, Quokkas - a monstrous injustice that the 'relevant authorities' do nothing at all about.

I'm afraid that I have further bad news. I found the English text of the ceasefire agreement, and the key paragraph (dealing with giving the Palestinians more access to the outside world) reads as follows:-

"Opening the crossings and facilitating the movement of people and transfer of goods and refraining from restricting residents' free movements and targeting residents in border areas. Procedures of implementation shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire."

http://www.news.com.au/world/israel-...-text/story-fndir2ev-1226521671362

People will note that the first sentence is ungrammatical. It looks as if some words have been deleted at the beginning, and not replaced. And it says nothing about 'who does what.' Any lawyer is likely to be able successfully to argue that it is not a 'sentence' but a mere 'fragment,' and therefore has no ascertainable meaning or legal effect. The second sentence is ambiguous in a similar way - it only says that any procedures will be 'dealt with' (whatever that means) - and, again, it doesn't say by whom.

So it looks, on the face of it, as if Israel has 'got away with it' and is not bound to do anything at all. Certainly not anything that will help the Palestinians.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: jfk69
Posted 2012-11-21 19:04:05 and read 4435 times.

Government forces just bombed a hospital in Aleppo Syria......just curious where the uproar is from the Arab league? Where is the flotilla of aid from Turkey for those poor people? The Palestinians are just a puppet for the Arab world.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-21 19:31:38 and read 4424 times.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 229):
Where is the flotilla of aid from Turkey for those poor people?

Syria has been suspended from the Arab League. The Arab League has been working with the US and other western countries to bring about change in Syria.

Quote:
The Arab League has recognised the coalition as "the legitimate representative of the Syrian people's aspirations."

Turkey has allowed arms and aid to pass to those fighting the regime. It had fired into Syria in response to Syrian shells landing in Turkey. It has spoken about establishing a buffer in Syria to protect civilians though been cautioned against doing so by its NATO allies. Turkey also called on Muslim countries to recognise the opposition forces, a position since adopted by France and Britain. Turkey also is considering stationing patriot missiles along its border and to establish a no-fly zone.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-21 19:32:56 and read 4422 times.

Quoting na (Reply 224):
I know that Gaza is one of most densely populated places on earth, and a lragely forbidden place.

Then it should come as no surprise to you that innocent civilians Will be hit, just because there is no real, secure, place to shelter.

Quoting na (Reply 224):
Makes me wonder why (according to different sources) the average Palestinian woman gives birth to 4 or more children. Imho that cant be love for kids under such conditions.

Ever heard of some place Africa and India, some of the birth rates there are much higher

Check out the birthrates in these countries, it leaves Gaza for dead.

Are you telling us, that all these people don't love there kids.   


Quoting na (Reply 224):
First, I havent heard about Palestinians dying from hunger in any sizable number as you are trying to say.

Then, you'd better start educating yourself...

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/risinghunger.html

Quoting na (Reply 224):
And to still whine about a house "stolen" 3 or 4 decades ago doesnt sound like a good idea too.

"Whine"  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!

Really, Where have you been living, to not understand that this is STILL occurring, TODAY, right now as we speak.
Not 3 or 4 decades ago!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012.../26/jewish-population-west-bank-up

Quoting na (Reply 224):
Germany has lost a lot of land due to an selfinflicted unjust war.

Germany my friend, has only just stopped repaying war reparations, for the angst it caused in WW11

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ns-92-years-59m-final-payment.html

So compensation should be generous for the Palestinians, when the time comes for them.

Quoting par13del (Reply 226):
In recent times this targeting of specific individuals has been Israel's most feared weapon, I am not surprised that it is included in the cease fire, I just wonder how much Israel expects to get in return.

Yes, and is it only encompassing Gaza and the Palestinian territory's, or other nations too ?

Remember, Mossad have knocked a few off in Dubai, and killed a few more scientists in Iran. So any Hamas leader going to Turkey, Egypt etc , better keep his head down.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 228):
So it looks, on the face of it, as if Israel has 'got away with it' and is not bound to do anything at all.

But don't you think the Palestinians have more international support now, than before this started, I do ?
And thanks to the constant news barge from every which way, many more people are seeing what the Palestine's are going through and up against, in this very uneven war.

Having said that, you are right, in as much as Israel never dose anything, unless it gets much more than it loses.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-21 21:17:16 and read 4396 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 221):
BREAKING : The Israeli Occupation Forces Broke the ( Fire Truce Agreement ) 15 Minutes after is was signed .. By Targeting a Building and a Farm in Northern Gaza Strip .. Several injuries Reported ..

Jesus Christ   

OK We need third party intervention- non-militaristic intervention....

Where the heck is China or India when we need them to intervene as 3rd parties?   

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: powerslide
Posted 2012-11-21 22:15:24 and read 4375 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 220):
Yeah that would be okay but only if Palestinians were first given as good weapons and military & financial aid as Israel receives.

Palestinians don't deserve aid beyond what they get now. When they smarten up and elect a government that isn't a terrorist organization then maybe something could be done. Until Hamas is out of office, let them suffer, they elected their future. Doesn't help when the rest of the Arab world abandoned them and uses them as pawns. It's all Israel's fault though.......

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-21 23:09:36 and read 4370 times.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 223):
Who said they were innocent ?

Do you know something we all don't ??

such replies makes my stomach turn.

Who says they were guilty?

Would you consider a mob a fair trial?

Would you consider a brutal killing a fair sentence?

Instant shooting is bad enough, but justifying a mob that drags a person through the streets behind a bike is brutal and barbaric and cannot be justified by anyone in his right mind.

It is sad that such thinking exists and it is bad the children are infested by their parents with this garbage.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2012-11-22 01:36:29 and read 4338 times.

Ground invasion order was canceled twice at the last minute

Translation from Maariv
via Google Translate

Command to enter the ground was twice canceled
On Monday at midnight, Nahal soldiers have received orders to move to Gaza, loaded equipment and opened the gates of the border, but at the last second action was

---http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=iw&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http://www.nrg.co.il/>http://translate.google.com/translat...76.html?hp=1&cat=875&loc=8&act=url----

  

[Edited 2012-11-22 01:37:35]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-22 02:17:11 and read 4322 times.

There is a saying amongst Arabs in Palestine:
الرئيس هو في واد، والشعب الفلسطيني في آخر
The President is in one valley, the Palestinian people are in another.

In reply 183 I pointed to the use of PA security to police demonstrations in the West Bank. When the violence in Gaza erupted, Abbas claimed that it was "happening in order to block our endeavour to reach the United Nations". In the face of mounting anger he contacted the leaders of Hamas in Gaza, a place he hasn't set foot in since 2007. He announced on television that he was working with Mishal and other Palestinian leaders on the immediate stop to Israeli attacks. On the streets those words were viewed with distrust. Many thought, "we need more than just words and slogans," and took those thoughts to the streets in angry protest.

Today Israel, with Gaza quiet for now, has turned its attention back to the West Bank. In a series of raids it has arrested 55 people who they describe as "terror operatives". Public radio claims that it includes a number of senior level operatives of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: zkojq
Posted 2012-11-22 05:26:15 and read 4272 times.

Good to see that the ceasefire agreement is holding.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 206):
hippies

  

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 209):
How can an open economy work in a society that is unable to come to peace with it's next door neighbour?

Seems to work fine in Israel.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 209):
How can an "open economy" work under a terrorist regime?

Seems to work in Iran; despite all the sanctions and such, their unemployment rate (14% or thereabouts) is lower than that of Greece and Spain.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 209):
What happens to Palestinians who stand up against Hamas we are just discussing.

So that gives Israel the right to do anything and everything it pleases? My whole point is that one doesn't have the right to do anything one pleases just because one is fighting an evil enemy. The Taliban is also pretty darn evil, yet their evilness (and the fact that they don't give two hoots about complying with the Geneva Convention) isn't going to justify ISAF calling in airstrikes in heavily built-up residential areas of Kabul.

Quoting par13del (Reply 217):
The UN has been on the Israel / Lebanon border for millennia, and guess what, Israel and Hezbollah rolls over them, so I don't think the UN is a viable option in enforcing the peace in this situation.

I'm referring to the UN running customs at the port/border to ensure that weapons aren't smuggled in with legitimate cargo, not peacekeeping activities as such.

Quoting EDKA (Reply 212):
I think yuo mean well

I trust that you do also.  
Quoting EDKA (Reply 212):
How many more Israelis need to die for this to become "fair" in your eyes? 10? 20? 100??

I'd rather that none Israeli civilians died. None Palestinian civilians either. Might I inquire as to how many Palestinians you would want dead from all this?

Quoting EDKA (Reply 212):
Should they not use the shelters to make up your "fair" numbers game?

That is just silly. If I was living in Southern Israel I would certainly use my bomb shelter, as would everyone else participating in this thread. If I was living in Gaza I would also use a shelter, but it is far less likely that I would have access to one thanks to limitations and restrictions on the importation of construction materials.

Quoting par13del (Reply 217):
It affects both sides equally, not sure we can pick a side whose young are not being instilled with fear and hatred.

I'm just making the assumption that more hate and fear has been installed in young Gazans because more Gazans have been killed and injured than Israelis.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 209):
Israel is ruled by the law

Try telling that to this guy. Again, I'm not defending actions that he might or might not have made (the seem pretty nasty), but IMO a country is not ruled by law when extra-judicial killings are legal and permitted by the executive wing of government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahmoud_Al-Mabhouh

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 225):
"Twenty-four hours after the ceasefire takes effect, Israel will also be committed to opening of all border crossings and ease restrictions on movements of people and goods in and out of the enclave."
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 225):
If that's true - that the Israelis are definitely committed to allowing freer movement in and out of Gaza - that's a tremendous step forward, IMO.

So maybe there is some hope in all of this.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 227):
in France it is even an offence to express certain views on events in 1919.

If you are referring to the laws against denying the Armenian Genocide (also sometimes known as the First Holocaust ), then its 1915 (when it began). Anyhow, the law was put in place for very good reasons (other than trying to help Monsieur Sarkozy to win the franco-armenian vote). Such legislation is sadly necessary to stop the spread of holocaust denialism and (lesser so) holocaust exclusiveism. Similar legislation exists (and has done for years) making it illegal to deny the WWII Holocaust.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 229):
Government forces just bombed a hospital in Aleppo Syria.....just curious where the uproar is from the Arab league

Syria was kicked out (suspended technically) of the Arab League in November 2011 due to violence it had committed against its citizens. 18 of 22 members voted for its suspension.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/12/wo...ex.html?eref=igoogledmn_topstories

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 231):
Really, Where have you been living, to not understand that this is STILL occurring, TODAY, right now as we speak.
Not 3 or 4 decades ago!

It is actually really disgusting and making things so much worse. A couple of years back I watched an episode of BBC' Our World that showed how Israel was actively having Palestinian homes demolish and replaced with new Israeli ones in East Jerusalem. The intention being to populate parts of Jerusalem to the East of the 1967 border with large numbers of Israelis so that returning to the border becomes even less viable. It is nearly impossible for Palestinians to get a building permit in East Jerusalem. I wish the BBC had a decent archive of such videos so I could post a link to it. I guess this link from Al Jazeera will have to do.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...t/2011/10/2011103121391523605.html
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/recor...-quartet-continues-talk-2011-12-13

In Gaza, when Palestinian homes are destroyed it is very difficult to have them re-built due to the limitations/restrictions on the importation of building supplies.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/int...tive/2012/08/2012830754014332.html

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 231):
But don't you think the Palestinians have more international support now, than before this started, I do ?

I hope so, but what difference does it make? As always, Israel manages to be above the law. I can't see this changing any time soon, even if Gaza/Palestine get oodles of international support.

[Edited 2012-11-22 05:31:58]

[Edited 2012-11-22 05:53:07]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-22 05:35:59 and read 4261 times.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 237):
So maybe there is some hope in all of this.

See Post 228 above, zkojq - unfortunately, Israel seems to have succeeded in keeping anything definite about more Gazan contact with the outside world out of the final communique........

Looks as if Clinton and Co. stuffed up.......

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: zkojq
Posted 2012-11-22 05:49:10 and read 4262 times.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 237):
It is actually really disgusting and making things so much worse. A couple of years back I watched an episode of BBC' Our World that showed how Israel was actively having Palestinian homes demolish and replaced with new Israeli ones in East Jerusalem. The intention being to populate parts of Jerusalem to the East of the 1967 border with large numbers of Israelis so that returning to the border becomes even less viable. It is nearly impossible for Palestinians to get a building permit in East Jerusalem. I wish the BBC had a decent archive of such videos so I could post a link to it. I guess this link from Al Jazeera will have to do.

Forgot to mention in the previous post: the historical foundation for the demolition of Palestinian homes comes from back in the late 1940s. Terrorist groups such as Irgun would commit various atrocities such as the Deir Yassin massacre. Palestinians from nearby villages would hear about the attack and temporarily leave town for a few days out of fear. When they returned they would often find their homes had been demolished or occupied.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 238):
See Post 228 above, zkojq - unfortunately, Israel seems to have succeeded in keeping anything definite about more Gazan contact with the outside world out of the final communique........

Looks as if Clinton and Co. stuffed up.......

I'm really, really hoping you are wrong with this. Your track record however suggests that you probably won't be.   

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: EDKA
Posted 2012-11-22 08:56:24 and read 4185 times.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 237):
Might I inquire as to how many Palestinians you would want dead from all this?

Not sure i understand the point of your question. I am not the one trying to somehow compare the numbers on both sides. For me, all loss of innocent lives is tragic, Israeli or Palestinians.


Saying that I don't have any issues with members of Hamas or any other terrorist group being wiped out - but then i would not consider them innocent. Would you??

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-11-22 10:56:57 and read 4147 times.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 237):

I'm just making the assumption that more hate and fear has been installed in young Gazans because more Gazans have been killed and injured than Israelis.

The old sayings that number can be used to show whatever one would like, if one takes number number of persons based on a percentage of the population you will find that the ratio are very similar.
The combatants on the ground know this hence the strategy of kidnapping soldiers in return for the release of hundreds,
or the extraordinary measures Israel takes to protect and or return its soldiers from the battle field.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-22 10:59:24 and read 4146 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 233):

Palestinians don't deserve aid beyond what they get now

   When you have a terrorist group that took over a peaceful government by a coup, you should not give them squat.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-22 11:06:44 and read 4148 times.

I'll just say this (warning: wall of text follows)...

In history there were many times when people had the chance to stop something bad from going on, but haven't done so. They have always claimed 'they didn't know'. Don't let yourselves be those people today. Learn about what is going on in Israel & Palestine today. No matter what your feelings about it, at least you will not be the one not to have known about it.

Yes, Hamas is bad. Hamas kills people - Israelis and their own people. But the normal Palestinian is not a Hamas member. Yes, the election (the openness of which is rather disputed) was won by Hamas. In the end, some people did vote for Hamas of their own free will. But then again, would you be able to say with absolute certainty you would not vote for them if you would have lost a dear one? Hate breeds hate, and Israel is not really throwing around good deeds when it comes to Gaza and the West Bank. "You will reap, what you sow.". There was no Hamas, no Fatah, no PLO, no PFLP-GC before 1948. They gained support because people were wronged and wanted something about it. And from what we can see too clearly, support from the international front is more 'token-like' than anything else. Israel has free reign over people that have lived there for ages, who have been displaced (some of them several times since 1948), who have been prohibited from entering Israel and whose land was therefore appropriated (PC word for 'blatantly stolen') in a country ruled by law (and whose Justitia is not only blind, but also deaf, dumb, stupid and openly biased) (re: The Absentee Law and various other legal instruments that disposess the Arabs - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_land_and_property_laws ).

People have had their Jerusalem resident cards (think of the equivalent of the US Green Card; but these were issues to Arabs living in Jerusalem who opted not to take the Israeli citizenship) and their residency status permanently removed if they were out of the country too long or have gotten a citizenship of a third country. (and the Absentee Law strikes again, and more land is grabbed). On the other hand someone who has never stepped into Israel, but is of a certain faith has the right to live there. Rule of law? LAW? Do not trust blindly into laws, Nazi Germany also had laws, but as these above are, they were also unfair and tantamount to criminal (I would consider it bad taste listing them, but it needs to be said that even laws can be wrong).

You are also witnesses to massive Geneva Conventions breaches that are going on to this day (GCIV, Article 3, Paragraph 1; GCIV, Article 5; GCIV Article 10; GCIV Article 31; GCIV Article 32; GCIV Article 33; GCIV Article 47; GCIV Article 49, Paragraph 6 ("The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."); GCIV Article 53; GCIV Article 55; GCIV Article 56; GCIV Article 59; and probably more but this ought to be enough).

You might say, Palestine is not a country and not party to GC IV - well, you are wrong. GC IV states (Article 2): "Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations."

There. This needed to be said. I would've wished during WWII people stood up and said 'What Germany is doing to the Jews and the Gypsies, the homosexuals and to the mentally handicapped is wrong.'. It made me think why nobody spoke out. I will not be one of those being silent about what I know is wrong, so there.

Israel is wrong and needs to stop. Much can be said about the Jewish character, but never before in history could it have been said it included being cruel or being oppressors. Israel has managed to achieve exactly that in the past 60+ years. I feel it is a giant insult for every Jewish person in the past who suffered, and there was a lot of suffering because of their religion and just them being Jewish, an insult to millenia of the Jewish life. Whatever Israel is doing is in my opinion not compatible with Jewish culture and goes against it. Yes, there should be a Jewish national home, and yes there should be Israel, and yes the Israelis should have peace and prosperity. But never born out of pain and suffering of the others. What is done - is done, but there is a large historic debt that Israel has to the inhabitants of the lands that were displaced and disowned.

I know my thoughts won't change a thing. But it's my duty to the memory of ancestors that I write it down.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: 777way
Posted 2012-11-22 13:12:25 and read 4110 times.

My favourite line from the TV series 'Revenge' quoting Amanda aka Emily Thorne "When everything you love has been stolen from you, sometimes all you have left is revenge", applies well in this situation.

[Edited 2012-11-22 13:38:38]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: powerslide
Posted 2012-11-22 13:32:50 and read 4092 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 243):
Whatever Israel is doing is in my opinion not compatible with Jewish culture and goes against it.

You mean protecting themselves from terrorism and extermination at the hands of the Arabs? After 2000 years the Jews finally have a means to shoot back with bigger and better weapons and people are upset about it. Israel needs to attack, with speed and violence and destroy the launchers and missile stocks. Engage (euphemism for kill) many, many fighting age (15-35 years old) men who try to stop them with threatening force. Too bad a ceasefire has already been brokered and this whole scenario will repeat itself in a few months or years.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-22 13:45:24 and read 4088 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 245):
You mean protecting themselves from terrorism and extermination at the hands of the Arabs?

No, going way overboard defending themselves. Stealing land ad nauseam. Enough.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-22 14:15:33 and read 4079 times.

Quoting 777way (Reply 244):
My favourite line from the TV series 'Revenge' quoting Amanda aka Emily Thorne "When everything you love has been stolen from you, sometimes all you have left is revenge", applies well in this situation.

Well that depends on the way the "revenge" is executed. If its terrorism of any kind, especially against the civilian population, I say no. No matter what reason or despair is behind it, terrorism is intolerable. Before even thinking about it its wiser to leave and let it all behind, even if its your home land.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: sbworcs
Posted 2012-11-22 14:19:50 and read 4071 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 245):

Your posts seem to indicate you would relish the death of many.

How on earth will that be constructive?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: 777way
Posted 2012-11-22 14:20:44 and read 4076 times.

Quoting na (Reply 247):
Well that depends on the way the "revenge" is executed. If its terrorism of any kind, especially against the civilian population, I say no. No matter what reason or despair is behind it, terrorism is intolerable. Before even thinking about it its wiser to leave and let it all behind, even if its your home land.

She also said "“For the truly wronged, real satisfaction can only be found in one of two places: absolute forgiveness or mortal vindication. This is not a story of forgiveness.” sounds like an apt reply to you post.

[Edited 2012-11-22 14:28:09]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-22 14:33:18 and read 4057 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 234):
such replies makes my stomach turn.

Yes they do don't they, and isn't it such a shame that this conflict, has led to this.

There are wrongs on both sides as we all understand, but when you have been driven into the ground like an animal, by a military force that is without contest, then I suppose it should come as no surprise really, should it ?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 234):
Instant shooting is bad enough, but justifying a mob that drags a person through the streets behind a bike is brutal and barbaric and cannot be justified by anyone in his right mind.

Not justifying, I'd call it more, being realistic, under the circumstances.

As I said, when you are treated like an animal, your going to fight like one. I'd imagine, wouldn't you ?

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 236):
Today Israel, with Gaza quiet for now, has turned its attention back to the West Bank. In a series of raids it has arrested 55 people who they describe as "terror operatives". Public radio claims that it includes a number of senior level operatives of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Yes Quokkas.

I read in the SMH with some interest, that these 55 arrests were made after the cease fire began, yet I haven't heard it reported anywhere else....

http://www.smh.com.au/world/israel-a...5-in-west-bank-20121122-29syg.html

Oddly enough, (though, I shouldn't be surprised really) Ive heard plenty about the several missiles that were fired from Gaza into Israel after the cease fire began, and how Israel, let this 'indiscretion" pass !

Why I wonder ?

Could it be that Israel didn't want to make a big deal about it, simply for the fact that it would probably draw attention to what they had just done, with the 55 arrest after the cease fire started ?

Fair and unbiased reporting do you think, or just not important enough to make a "headline" ?

Quoting damirc (Reply 243):
Israel is wrong and needs to stop.

How true

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: powerslide
Posted 2012-11-22 15:12:52 and read 4056 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 246):
No, going way overboard defending themselves.

Something a Hamas sympathizer would say. The bombing and invasion of the Gaza strip in order prevent and/or limit the attacks on Israel is nothing more than preventative maintenance. Israel has the right to defend itself in any way necessary. You don't show mercy to terrorists. If Hamas had half the capability of the IDF they would have declared war on Israel a long time ago. Thankfully they are limited to pointless, suicidal tactics that only diminishes the population of the Palestinian people.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-22 15:56:42 and read 4060 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 251):
Something a Hamas sympathizer would say.

Thank you. I despise all violence. I never served in the army, but had the "privilege" of being a civilian in a war situation.

I am done with this thread since it always ends up with people calling other people names when they run out of arguments.

And just so you use your brain a little - the Israeli defensive forces started out as terrorists ... King David Hotel, Count Folke Bernadotte. Don't you understand that any kind of asymmetric warfare necessarily means terrorists/guerrila tactics to achieve any kind of goals? Probably in your mind you expect the Palestinians to just sit back, relax until there is no land left to steal and/or they all end up in administrative detention.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: cmf
Posted 2012-11-22 16:46:17 and read 4042 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 251):
You don't show mercy to terrorists.

To those you call terrorists, the terrorists are those you think are right.

So when you say don't show mercy, you actually justify hamas actions.

Quoting damirc (Reply 243):

Great post. You highlight the hypocrisy in the situation that is so clear to everyone that want a mutual solution instead a specific winner.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-22 17:46:37 and read 4017 times.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 239):
I'm really, really hoping you are wrong with this.

I was hoping just as hard, zkojq. But this story confirms my suspicions:-

"Hamas, the Islamist group that controls the coastal strip, persuaded Gazans to support its confrontation with Israel in part by vowing repeatedly that it would keep fighting until the controversial blockade was lifted.

"So many were surprised Wednesday night when the Egyptian-brokered cease-fire included only vague promises to discuss easing restrictions on goods and people at a later date.

"A Hamas official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, said the group received private assurances from Egypt that the Rafah crossing to the Sinai Peninsula, which currently permits limited movement of people, will be expanded to include goods, and that Israel agreed not to object.

"Israelis, who are worried that opening the borders will allow Hamas to rearm itself, don't want to talk about the subject until after it's clear that the cease-fire is holding.

"But even if Egypt expands Rafah traffic as Gazans hope, Israel is under no obligation to follow suit at crossings along its border with Gaza. In fact, many conservative Israeli lawmakers advocate sealing the Israeli border with Gaza entirely and orienting the restive territory — and its many problems — toward Egypt.

"That could bring a widening of the political and economic divisions between the Gaza Strip and West Bank, further complicating the creation of a Palestinian state, some observers fear.

"This could exacerbate the fragmentation of the Palestinian society," said Sari Bashi, director of the Israeli human rights group Gisha. "Expanding access at Rafah is important, but it doesn't change the need for access between the West Bank and Gaza. That's where families are separated. That's where the markets are."


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...de-20121123,0,7565466.story?page=1

Have to admit that, as someone who lived through WW2 and its aftermath as a child, I can't help seeing ironic parallels between the way the Israelis are treating the Palestinians and the way the German Nazis treated Occupied Europe (particularly places like Poland) between 1939 and 1945.............

PS - Looks like I may have been wrong to blame Clinton. This suggests that it was Obama personally who gave Netanyahu everything he wanted:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...-netanyahu-egyptian-ceasefire-plan

[Edited 2012-11-22 18:14:53]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCol
Posted 2012-11-22 18:26:35 and read 4000 times.

Quoting 777way (Reply 244):

Only a fool would equate that show to reality.

Bottom Line: Revenge breeds hate. Hate is like Cancer. There comes a point of no return where no amount of self proclaimed "justice" good enough. The end result is a person that won't stop until the whole world is a smoldering pile of ashes.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: 777way
Posted 2012-11-22 19:09:02 and read 3987 times.

The show maybe unreal but the quotes are very true you have to experience things to know that even religious teachings at times need to be sidelined just to settle a score, other wise the Hamas etc. would not exist.

Expect the Palestinaisn to sit around like dumb fools and be harrassed and not do anything about it, BS! all the while their land is being grabbed and they wait for some elusive peace deal that may come when nothing is left.

Quoting damirc (Reply 252):
Probably in your mind you expect the Palestinians to just sit back, relax until there is no land left to steal

WOW! I posted the last sentence without even having read your post, so similar.

[Edited 2012-11-22 19:24:48]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: powerslide
Posted 2012-11-22 21:14:57 and read 3954 times.

Quoting 777way (Reply 256):
Expect the Palestinaisn to sit around like dumb fools and be harrassed and not do anything about it, BS!

You'd rather have them take up arms, like dumb fools, knowing full well that they won't get anywhere by fighting Israel? Aggression vs. Israel via violence and terrorism has never faired well for the Arabs in the past, so why continue the status quo? Stupidity, ignorance or it is just their way and purpose in life?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Flighty
Posted 2012-11-22 22:05:20 and read 3940 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 99):
It's time for Israel to clean house in Gaza once and for all.

There is a path to peace and Israeli success.

Quoting cmf (Reply 253):
So when you say don't show mercy, you actually justify hamas actions.

Indeed. Israel has no special right to just utter slurs such as "terrorist" or "madman barbarian" or what have you. Neither does Hamas. They are basically equals. Morally, this is pretty simple: peace and rightful ownership of land are the moral high ground. See, neither side is peaceful and neither side has reasonable ownership of the land.

Killing people opens you to extremely violent, justified punishment for your violent acts. In this case, the total destruction of both sides is equally moral, or equally immoral.

Instead, we ought to be striving for _higher_morals..... forgiveness..... and peace in the face of violence. In both Israel and Palestine's cases, the use of violence on civilians has become a deplorable form of ritual suicide. They each hate themselves, can't find a moral compass and are just trying to ensure a justified enemy will plot and arrange their deaths. Also known as "death by cop." Both Israel and Hamas are doing this now.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-22 23:56:41 and read 3925 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 254):
I was hoping just as hard, zkojq. But this story confirms my suspicions:-

Don't give up hope just yet....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ticle.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10849506

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: 777way
Posted 2012-11-23 01:40:25 and read 3907 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 257):

better thank sitting around like dumb fools, atleast there is some satisfaction of having done some harm in someway, however small it maybe.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: zkojq
Posted 2012-11-23 05:13:30 and read 3866 times.

Quoting EDKA (Reply 240):
For me, all loss of innocent lives is tragic, Israeli or Palestinians.

Agreed.

Quoting EDKA (Reply 240):
Saying that I don't have any issues with members of Hamas or any other terrorist group being wiped out - but then i would not consider them innocent. Would you??

No, I certainly am not suggesting that they are innocent civilians and thus wouldn't shed a tear if they were killed. Same goes for some of the highly militant settlers actually.

Quoting par13del (Reply 241):
The old sayings that number can be used to show whatever one would like, if one takes number number of persons based on a percentage of the population you will find that the ratio are very similar.

Um, more Gazans were killed than Israelis and the population of Gaza is significantly less than the the population of Israel, so I'm not sure how one arrives at the conclusion that the ratios are even close to similar?

Quoting damirc (Reply 243):

Many good points there, damirc.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 251):
The bombing and invasion of the Gaza strip in order prevent and/or limit the attacks on Israel is nothing more than preventative maintenance.

No, bombing high-rise residential buildings, banks and police stations is not preventative maintenance, it is overkill with a blatant disregard/nonchalance for the lives of civilians.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 251):
Israel has the right to defend itself in any way necessary.

In any way necessary? Would that include terrorism by any chance? Enforced disappearances? Purposeful mass killing of civilians? Does this right to defend itself in any way exempt it from having to abide by the Geneva Convention? The right to defense via any necessary actions (or, in plain English, the right to do whatever the hell they like) covers a lot of nasty actions, so those who use the term should do so with caution.

Anyhow, why does Israel get this right to do anything they like in the name of defense, yet Palestinians don't? It isn't like the Israelis have been playing by the rules all these years.

Quoting damirc (Reply 252):
Probably in your mind you expect the Palestinians to just sit back, relax until there is no land left to steal and/or they all end up in administrative detention.

Exactly what Israel wants them to do. At this point they can be shipped off to Egypt/Jordan/Syria/Lebanon.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 254):
This suggests that it was Obama personally who gave Netanyahu everything he wanted

Hardly surprising, he is somewhat of a pushover. I have always thought (rightly or wrongly) that Hillary is the better negotiator of the two. Pity it isn't her in the White House, IMO.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 254):

Currently I'm trying to find clarity on the status of the sea blockade. IMO if the sea blockade was lifted and the UN uptook the role of customs enforcement (to ensure weapons aren't being smuggled), the benefits would outweigh the negatives of Israel permanently closing its borders.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-11-23 12:30:05 and read 3794 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 254):

"That could bring a widening of the political and economic divisions between the Gaza Strip and West Bank, further complicating the creation of a Palestinian state, some observers fear.

The two territories are already seperated by geography, that in and of itself is a problem that also has to be delt with, but there are more important issues at this time.

Quoting 777way (Reply 260):
better thank sitting around like dumb fools, atleast there is some satisfaction of having done some harm in someway, however small it maybe.

Well so much for people like Ghandi and MLK who thought non-violent protest was also a form of doing something rather than sitting around like dumb fools.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: powerslide
Posted 2012-11-23 20:05:37 and read 3731 times.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 261):
Anyhow, why does Israel get this right to do anything they like in the name of defense, yet Palestinians don't?

Both have a right to defend themselves, but don't go crying to mommy when one side is smarter, more advanced and has a professional, functioning military. Israel is just more efficient in killing its enemies and suffers less losses on her side. I know you don't like that but its reality.

Here is something else the Arab world won't like:

Israel dominates the new Middle East

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...d5-e202b6d7b501_story.html?hpid=z6

key notes:

Quote:
But money doesn’t begin to describe Israel’s real advantages, which are in the quality and effectiveness of its military, in terms of both weapons and people. Despite being dwarfed by the Arab population, Israel’s army plus its high-quality reservists vastly outnumber those of the Arab nations. Its weapons are far more sophisticated, often a generation ahead of those used by its adversaries. Israel’s technology advantage has profound implications on the modern battlefield.

Then there are the asymmetrical threats from groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas. The study takes a look at them and analyzes Hezbollah’s huge arsenal of missiles. The authors conclude that these pose no real threat to Israel because the missiles are largely unguided and thus ineffective. Hamas’s rockets are even more crude and ineffective. Israel’s response, its “Iron Dome” defense system, has worked better than expected.

As for larger threats, the study points out that Israel is the only country in the region with a sophisticated nuclear arsenal — estimated to be between 100 and 500 weapons, many of them on submarines — and advanced ballistic missiles.

This is why Egypt, despite being under a new Islamist government, is not going to risk war with Israel. Nor are the other Arab states. They will make fiery speeches and offer humanitarian assistance. But they will not fight alongside the Palestinians in Gaza or do anything that could trigger a wider war.

These are the realities of the Middle East today. Israel’s astonishing economic growth, its technological prowess, its military preparedness and its tight relationship with the United States have set it a league apart from its Arab adversaries. Peace between the Palestinians and Israelis will come only when Israel decides that it wants to make peace. Wise Israeli politicians, from Ariel Sharon to Ehud Olmert to Ehud Barak, have wanted to take risks to make that peace because they have worried about Israel’s future as a Jewish and democratic state. This is what is in danger, not Israel’s existence.

The Gazans will never win by use of weapons. Maybe one day they will realize this and not waste away more generations.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-23 20:59:21 and read 3726 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 257):
You'd rather have them take up arms, like dumb fools, knowing full well that they won't get anywhere by fighting Israel? Aggression vs. Israel via violence and terrorism has never faired well for the Arabs in the past, so why continue the status quo? Stupidity, ignorance or it is just their way and purpose in life?

Learn your history. The Warsaw ghetto uprising was doomed to end in bloodshed, but needed to be done. The Treblinka and Sobibor uprisings were doomed from the get to also, but had to be done. And I'm glad they happened. Even although the end result was clear.

What do you suggest the Palestinians do? They've tried to achieve statehood in front of the United Nations, but were blocked. They are blocked politically, they are blocked physically in their lands and they can watch their land vanish time and time again.

You present the Israelis as the only victims in this conflict. Yes, there are innocents on their side also. But as there is Hamas there is vitriolic hate in the settlers.

This video is not from 1948, not from 1967 but from 2012.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBMaxsJQ3pA

The settler usurps the land owner and the people helping him with the nephew of the owner being arrested by the IDF under the rule of law while the settler (born in Belgium mind you, not even Sabra) comes uninvited to someone's private property and starts insulting left and right. "You are helping Arabs steal the land of the Jewish people.". SAY WHAT? The man owns the land. And I am supposed to agree with that? You think this is the only such incident? It is all too frequent. You expect the Palestnians to "negotiate" with people like that?

You have the main street in Hebron (deep in the West Bank) closed down to the Arab population, because a group of extremist settlers settled in Tel Rumeida. The needs of one people always surpasses the rights of another people.

People prohibited by the IDF (sided by settlers) to work on their land (West Bank again)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsoC9EAkba8 - business as usual.

Settlers burning olive groves and again prohibiting access to owner's land (West Bank also): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foHCgNNZEMo

And destroying other personal property or smearing graffiti ... well, why not. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vasGA5iZy7c .... West Bank again.

And a little burning of fields again ... West Bank, settlers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhUXQ1Se9ZA

And a little burning, but this time with settlers firing automatic weapons into the crowd, who didn't behave like brave little Palestinians in approval of settlers burning their fields ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90__-IUNfIM (and the IDF does nothing ... attempted murder, but nothing happens to the perp while the IDF soldiers are standing meters away from him).

You can be in Hebron (West Bank of course), and thy shall never argue with your oppressors or thy shall end up with a bloody nose from a nice headbutt and end up arrested - http://www.btselem.org/video/201200725_soldier_headbuts_boy

Being a journalist in West Bank can lead to a few bruises from the most moral "defensive force" ... defending the West Bank from whom exactly? http://www.btselem.org/video/20120913_qadum

West Bank yet again ... http://www.btselem.org/video/dog2012 .... you protest the closing of a road for the Palestinians (Nablus - Kfar Qadum) and end up having a dog being sent to attack you and finally arrested for probably assaulting the said dog.

And while the world isn't looking this keeps going on. You will not see this in the mainstream media. It is only to several NGO's that we actually get to see what happens behind closed curtains ... (B'Tselem in this case and they have my utmost respect for being frank on what goes on). Their plight needs to be told and shown. It is not only the Israelis suffering as is regularly shown by the mainstream media. The others need a voice too.

Call me a Hamas supporter if it makes you happy (and I'll state once and for all, I'm against all forms of violence, yet I do understand WHY it happens). I will however not be silent in regards to abuse being dished out at Palestinians. I have absolutely nothing against people who out what Palestinians do to the Israelis - only the full truth will lead anywhere.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: cmf
Posted 2012-11-23 23:01:49 and read 3699 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 264):
Being a journalist in West Bank can lead to a few bruises from the most moral "defensive force" ... defending the West Bank from whom exactly

A good example of the biggest stick is right philosophy some people here advocate, as long as it fit their goals...

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: aerorobnz
Posted 2012-11-24 00:14:02 and read 3689 times.

Sit back and enjoy the fireworks folks.... Just leave them to it and just let them kill each other - If it won't end until everyone from both sides is dead, so be it... The world should follow the neutrality of a country like Switzerland.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-24 01:25:13 and read 3667 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 262):
The two territories are already seperated by geography

Can't agree, per13del - they actually got 'separated' not by 'geography,' but by politics and religious prejudice.

Until 1948 Palestine was one country, consisting of everything west of the Jordan, from Egypt to the border with Lebanon. It was largely populated by Arabs, who were mostly Muslim - though it enjoyed genuine freedom of religion, with Muslims and the minority religions - a few Christians and a few Jews - living together in harmony.

http://www.tomhull.com/ocston/projects/ajvp/wp1.php

It was only after the end of WW2 that the United Nations and the 'occupying power' (the UK) began allowing uncontrolled inward migration of European Jews, and further allowing them to take land by force from its traditional owners, and systematically set about driving the latter out, without compensation.

To me that is, and remains, a supreme irony. The religion that arguably suffered more than any other from religious prejudice (at the hands of the German Nazis) reacting by 'persecuting' (and largely driving out) all other religions in Palestine, to the benefit of the Jewish one.

I remain of the opinion that the proper place for any 'Jewish national home' would have been South Germany, on the borders with France and Switzerland. I think, in fact, that the Germans, once they had been freed from the curse of Nazi tyranny, would readily have agreed to that, and that the new state would subsequently have prospered, without the problems that have resulted from taking the land of the (utterly blameless) Palestinians.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: pvjin
Posted 2012-11-24 03:49:29 and read 3616 times.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 266):

Sit back and enjoy the fireworks folks.... Just leave them to it and just let them kill each other - If it won't end until everyone from both sides is dead, so be it... The world should follow the neutrality of a country like Switzerland.

Yeah, but first Palestinians should be armed as well as Israelis are, that would make the fight much more fair and hopefully also cause more destruction to Israeli side so later some Arab state can go and take that piece of desert and Middle East would finally be more peaceful.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-24 04:41:54 and read 3602 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 268):
Yeah, but first Palestinians should be armed as well as Israelis are, that would make the fight much more fair and hopefully also cause more destruction to Israeli side so later some Arab state can go and take that piece of desert and Middle East would finally be more peaceful.

I would disagree with this. More death and destruction won't solve the reality at hand. Israeli is in the unique and precarious situation of being surrounded by nations (I would carefully exclude 1 or 2 countries from their neighbours in this "list" though) who would not hesitate of destoying Israel if Israel would not be military superior. It is for that reason that Israel needs to stay strong and moreover work in the international arena maintaining and grooming relationships with other friendly nations (why I think that rift with Turkey was both petty and stupid). With this said - Israel, while armed and militarily superior, needs to exercise restraint on how exactly the use their military power. And in this area they are currently failing. Blind destruction will not steer Palestinians away from radical fractions, it will just reap more anger and hatred towards them.

It would make far more tactical sense (not forgetting it would be moral at the same time) of working with the normal Palestinian populace, of opening up towards them and working with them. Given enough time and persistance this could (and should) show some results and pacifise the Palestinians (it is although quite unrealistic to expect that the radical elements will stop existing overnight, but it will lower the support for the radical element with time, and with persistence should make those radical elements (like Hamas) irrelevant and without public support). Gaining Palestinian support would benefit both sides - enabling normal Palestinian life and minimizing to nullifying the risks for the Israeli populace. Heck, Israel has managed to do something similar with the Druze, whose religion might be called a branch of Islam (different interpretation and different beliefs than Sunni or Shia Islam though). I do however feel (and here I might be totally wrong, but it is my feeling from having read a lot of material on contemporary and historic issues in Israel & Palestine) that Israel is tacitly accepting the current situation as it is since the "fog of war" allows for quiet expansion. I do also feel, that most of the "peace offers" have been made with calculating that they are unacceptable for the other side (with demans that make it unacceptable to the other side), and as in Camp David in 2000 (many issues here, read both sides of the argument why it failed) the Palestinians get the blame - as Arafat did in 2000, although his precondition for the talk was that no side should be blamed if the peace talks fail. (and yet he was the one that was blamed).

Now for the Palestinians. Frankly, Hamas and terrorism are doing them a lot of harm (while also hurting the Israeli civilians) politically. They need to understand that their best option at the moment is gaining western support for their cause - and terrorism is not really a method to achieve that. Only the West can influence Israel to stop it from doing what it is doing in the occupied territories (even if the Israeli governments insists that they are disputed and not occupied... political spinning at it's best). Their cause would be far better served with peaceful resistance in the line of Gandhi. Absolutely no rocks, absolutely no chanting, but just peaceful resistance. Gather 100 people, sit them down on a road and just sit there. Do not give Israel any pretext or reason to use force. If they so choose - they can use force, but they need to realize that they will be outed that they're using force far beyond what is normal and acceptable while dealing with the Palestinians. Alas - they too are far too entrenched in their ways on how to fight the occupation, and it's harming their cause.

And oh yes - Israel needs to punish the perpetrators on their side, not whitewash their crimes with commities, perform investigations that lead nowhere and end with "recommendations" and not punishing the people responsible for their crimes. Such behavior is unacceptable. What do you think the chances are that the son of Yasser a-Tmeizi will grow up turning to radical elements and accepting their values and behavior patterns? I think pretty high.

Oh, you don't know who Yasser a-Tmeizi is? No biggie - the western media never reported on him. He was just a normal Palestinian who was arrested by 4 IDF soldiers in the west bank while minding his own business. He was non-threatening, he didn't approach them, he wasn't armed (providing a donkey does not count as a weapon these days). After being arrested he was brought to a checkpoint, where he was (depending on which report from the Israeli side you read) "seen making a suspicious move", "grabbing a soliders weapon" (mighty stupid if he would do such a thing while being surrounded by IDF soldiers at one of their checkpoints) and ended up being shot twice and killed.

B'Tselem has this to say about the case: http://www.btselem.org/accountabilit...bility_sample_case_yasser_a_tmeizi ... and the vid with the interviews with the members of his family (along with another case), including his son who was present when the IDF approached Mr. a-Tmeizi but who was sent away by them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czmc9dd8Vn8 .... from what I know about the case noone was punished for his death. One family father dead, two semi-orphans and lots of anger and hatred. And for what? For sitting under a tree. Stories such as these give birth to blind hatred and feed the lust for revenge. Bloody stupid and unproductive.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-24 05:11:33 and read 3592 times.

@pvjin -
such contributions as your 268 actually do not deserve a reply. Checking your age bracket in your profile I wonder what the drinking age is in Finland. But then it leaves hope that you will mature in the years to come.

Now, the fundamental difference between Gaza and Israel is, that the latter is a democracy with a responsible government, controlled by a parliament, with an active opposition on the streets and rational people living in a modern society who want their peace.

Quite contrary is gaza, which is controlled by a hostile, irresponsible terrorist organisation, which is not controlled by anyone except the IDF, which does not tolerate opposition and uses the streets to beastly kill their own people and drag them behind bikes. Hamas is an organisation that does not want peace because peace is something that would kill their business model. They rather prefer to keep killing people, their own and Israelis.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-24 06:04:57 and read 3583 times.

Saw this in my twitter feed just now  

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-24 06:17:44 and read 3574 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 269):
It would make far more tactical sense (not forgetting it would be moral at the same time) of working with the normal Palestinian populace, of opening up towards them and working with them. Given enough time and persistance this could (and should) show some results and pacifise the Palestinians

I know that your comments are sincere and well-meant, damirc, but a simple examination of the population figures show that any such 'solution' (I use the word advisedly  ) is utterly impractical. The reason being that the whole region is wildly over-populated.

Trying to keep it short:-

1. in 1947 the population of Palestine was under 2 million; made up of around 1.2M.Muslims, 630,000 Jews, and 150,000 Christians.

2. Those figures have now grown to around 9.5M. - made up of 5.4M. Jews and 4.1M. Muslims - 2.4M. in what is now called 'Israel' and 1.7M. in the Gaza Strip. There are also about 3M. Palestinian 'refugees' in Jordan, who, as I understand it, are very often treated as 'second-class citizens' there (but, of course, have no sort of 'right of return' to Palestine). More detail here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine

So the whole area (call it Israel or Palestine or whatever) is already absurdly over-populated. In normal circumstances, and in economic terms, the place could not possibly support such a large population. It only manages it (on more or less a day-to-day basis) because the United States subsidises Israel on a frankly-absurd scale - literally about $US500 per PERSON per annum........

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

Meanwhile, of course, Israel actively pursues a 'right of return' policy - anyone of the Jewish faith can emigrate to Israel at Israeli (i.e. US) expense, any time they like.

All that, of course makes no sort of sense in economic terms - leave alone societal ones. But that remains the policy being followed by the Israeli government, and the US one.

So there is no way at all that Israel can possibly offer any sort of 'fair deal' to the Palestinians. All they can do is go on doing what they have been doing for many years now - wall up about half the Palestinian Arabs in Gaza, do everything they can to 'dehouse' and drive out those living on the West Bank, and make sure that no sort of 'right of return' is ever offered to 'ex-Palestinians' living in Jordan or other parts of the Middle East.

No other religion would get away with such discriminatory conduct for five minutes. But the Jewish one appears to have a sort of continuing 'licence to deprive' because of the world's sense of 'Holocaust guilt.' That notion is a bit bizarre 'in its own right'; because most (over 90%) of the estimated six millon Holocaust victims died in the camps - and any who are left alive today would be over 70 years old. I know, I met some of them when I served in Germany in the 1950s. Not to mention the fact that the Palestinians who are copping the flak about the 'right of return' (even any who are over 70) had nothing at ALL to do with the Holocaust..........

So the whole business, in my (I won't say 'humble', I too lived through WW2) opinion, is a colossal (and utterly illogical) mess. And, effectively, the people who are 'copping' the full consequences of the Holocaust are the utterly blameless Palestinians.

I repeat my earlier comment - the only sensible place for any compensatory 'home for the Jews' was never Palestine - it should have been South Germany........

[Edited 2012-11-24 06:23:41]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-24 09:55:02 and read 3524 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 268):
Yeah, but first Palestinians should be armed as well as Israelis are, that would make the fight much more fair and hopefully also cause more destruction to Israeli side so later some Arab state can go and take that piece of desert and Middle East would finally be more peaceful.

Oh brother, that's just sick. I used to see you as "just another opinion" but recently you're showing an extremist-like side. I prefer the least amount of bloodshed for the Israelis AND Palestinians.

The Israelis are there to stay. Maybe it was a mistake, but that was 65 or so years ago. We need to work towards achieving peace with both sides there. Just like it's unfeasible to give the US, no, the ENTIRE Americas back to the native population of the 1400s, we can't just expect all the Israelis to move.

The Israelis definitely have committed wrongs. That doesn't justify their destruction. And no, being associated with the US isn't a crime as much as you hate it

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: zkojq
Posted 2012-11-25 04:20:03 and read 3420 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 264):
People prohibited by the IDF (sided by settlers) to work on their land (West Bank again)...

Plenty of this going on yet the Israel apologists will keep telling us that Israel practices 'rule of law'. And the local Palestinian population is somehow supposed to trust these people? This is why underground resistance groups (sortof like Hamas) gain support.

Quoting damirc (Reply 264):
You will not see this in the mainstream media.

One of those things; a settler can violently provoke a Palestinian to make them very angry and then video their retaliation, upload it to youtube and tell the world how hard done by they are. Most Palestinians can't afford video cameras so injustices committed against them will likely go unnoticed. Additionally its not like the Israeli police is would put to much effort into pursuing their claim.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 268):
Yeah, but first Palestinians should be armed as well as Israelis are

I disagree here; it would be much better to disarm the Israelis. If the Israelis were weaker they might make a decent attempt at negotiating for peace. If the Palestinians get lots of arms then Israel will just get more cash from the US and buy more arms. Thus the end result will involve plenty more killing, destruction and anger.

Quoting damirc (Reply 269):
It is for that reason that Israel needs to stay strong and moreover work in the international arena maintaining and grooming relationships with other friendly nations

While Israel is stronger than everyone else in the region they are going to put little (if any) effort towards improving their relations with neighbors. Thus a weaker (though not too much so) Israel is better for everyone.

Quoting damirc (Reply 269):
Oh, you don't know who Yasser a-Tmeizi is?

The mainstream media would rather I didn't...

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 270):
responsible government,

     

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 272):
Meanwhile, of course, Israel actively pursues a 'right of return' policy - anyone of the Jewish faith can emigrate to Israel at Israeli (i.e. US) expense, any time they like.

Its utter craziness the extent to which the right of return policy is practiced. It just a tool used to push the population of the region in Israel's favor; more migrants (most of whom have no connection to the land) makes Israel more crowded, which creates the need for more 'lebensraum', which causes more settlements to be built on Palestinian land, which makes the Palestinians angry and likely to do something stupid or even violent in retaliation. Should the aforementioned violence happen, Israel can play victim.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 272):
I repeat my earlier comment - the only sensible place for any compensatory 'home for the Jews' was never Palestine - it should have been South Germany....

I agree with the Germany bit (those who caused this mess should be the ones that have to suffer), but why South Germany over any other part of the country?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-25 04:57:05 and read 3412 times.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 274):
more migrants (most of whom have no connection to the land) makes Israel more crowded, which creates the need for more 'lebensraum', which causes more settlements to be built on Palestinian land

Exactly so - I've never doubted that the objective of the Israeli leaders - and very probably that of most ordinary Israelis - has always been, over time, to drive out all the Palestinians. I suppose it's the old phenomenon that the physicists call 'an equal and opposite reaction' - even though few if any Jewish people alive today have ever experienced 'persecution,' there is a kind of 'folk memory' which leads to them feeling, however illogically, that they are entitled to special privileges on the basis of what happened to the European Jews 70 years ago, during WW2. And, by extension, also the right to persecute everybody else.........

Quoting zkojq (Reply 274):
I agree with the Germany bit (those who caused this mess should be the ones that have to suffer), but why South Germany over any other part of the country?

The south-west corner of Germany is (or was) relatively thinly-populated, zkojq. In addition, any new Jewish State located there would have had common borders with Switzerland and France as well as Germany; plus an internationally-protected water supply from the Rhine.

Still think that something like that would have worked.........

[Edited 2012-11-25 05:03:53]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-25 06:43:41 and read 3389 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 275):
The south-west corner of Germany is (or was) relatively thinly-populated, zkojq. In addition, any new Jewish State located there would have had common borders with Switzerland and France as well as Germany; plus an internationally-protected water supply from the Rhine.

Still think that something like that would have worked.........

Don't you realize that such thinking is backwards a couple of centuries?

After the horrors of 2 world wars and the holocaust your "solution" is to go back on start and produce the next couple of wars?

How can anyone be so blind and not realise that the western democracies have turned into the only right direction, bringing states under the rule of the law, where no one, regardless if voted into the office or by coup d'etat, has the uncontrolled power.

If the Palestinians don't want to come to peace with Israel, they will continue to have a problem. I said that before, they will continue to drive donkey cards, get beaten uo every 2 or 3 years. I mean, for the rest of the world its quite funny when someone smiles with no teeth and two black eyes and makes the victory sign. Pictures of a mob dragging alledged "traitors" behind motorbikes will bring sympathy only from people who are not right in their minds.

Palestinians should get a life, it's in their hands.

BTW, we have several hundred thousand Jewish people living in Germany, they are most welcome and can live wherever they want. Germany is an open minded country, we do not have reservations here.

[Edited 2012-11-25 07:37:39]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-25 09:37:52 and read 3366 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 276):
Pictures of a mob dragging alledged "traitors" behind motorbikes will bring sympathy only from people who are not right in their minds.

Could I ask you nicely, that you refrain from such statements? The opposing side of the argument may say that all of the settlers pushing onto stolen lands and their supporters might not be right in their mind. Be it as it may, I'm not a qualified psychologist and I doubt you are one. So try argumenting the argument and not disqualify the person.

You have also used a strawman argument, since noone in this thread (as far as I can see) supported the action of Hamas and noone is excusing them. Yes, some of us might understand why it is happening, but we do not condone it. Would you also please state what exactly is the difference between Israeli killings (of course extrajudicial) and Hamas killing suspected civilians of collaboration (again extrajudicial). From a pragmatic view of point the only difference is that one side kills their own people, while the other side kills their enemies. The end result and the means are quite the same.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 276):

After the horrors of 2 world wars and the holocaust your "solution" is to go back on start and produce the next couple of wars?

I sincerely doubt that NAV was considering moving the problem from Israel to southern Germany today. He was talking about the end of WW2. Today, the situation we have needs resolving without involing even more parties.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 276):
If the Palestinians don't want to come to peace with Israel, they will continue to have a problem. I said that before, they will continue to drive donkey cards, get beaten uo every 2 or 3 years. I mean, for the rest of the world its quite funny when someone smiles with no teeth and two black eyes and makes the victory sign.

It takes two willing partners for any peace talks. And frankly if I look at Israel and the Hamas (Fatah at the moment seems to at least work constructively and has generally pacified their people) I see exacty 0 willing and honest partners for peace. And frankly, the situation is everything but funny. It is worrying how fervent the supporters of each extremist side are (and I'm not talking mainstream Israel, but extremist settlers - as well I'm not talking about mainstream Palestinian opinion, but the extremist, terrorist, element). While you claim that the Palestinian are to blame for everything I claim that both sides are to blame for what we have today. And I will go further that such limitless support for Israel is exactly why Israel behaves like it does and does a half-a**ed effort towards peace. If the western world would finally press on Israel, indict a few political leaders at the ICJ (or for that matter elsewhere, since universal jurisdiction does apply) for the human right crimes that are being (mostly) openly supported by the Israeli state - I do believe that impulses towards would be given. However, for as long as the western world idly stands by watching Israel "oppose" settling to appease the world opinion and on the other side finance said settlers and send IDF after them to "protect them" - nothing will change.

I do postulate that the majority of the dissent towards Israel in Palestine is due to their direct actions and injustices, rather than pure and blind hatred towards Judaism and Jewish people (while being pretty sure that there are parts of the Palestinian society that do posess such blind hatred).

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 276):
Palestinians should get a life, it's in their hands.

I beg to differ. Let's look at Gaza. Industry is impossible, since you can forget about any materials that would be needed (anything that might have dual use is prohibited of getting into Gaza). Tourism? Well ... that's a given. Ask Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein (both Jews mind you) how easy it is getting into Palestinian territories through Israel (and Israel does control all access to Gaza and the West Bank). Finkelstein was detained for 24 hours and then rejected (as far as I remember at Ben Gurion/TLV). Chomsky was denied access at the checkpoint from Jordan. If they were prohibited for having an anti-zionist (and not anti-semitic) view, even although being Jews - you can imagine how others will fare reaching the Palestinian territories. (this does open a new can of worms however - if Israel is a land for the Jews how come dissenting Jews can be prohibited from entering - is this then actually a Jewish homeland, or is it rather a Zionist homeland?). So industry and tourism are out - okay, then let's see how about fishing. Well from the 1980s to 2000 Israel has curtailed how far away from the land Gaza fishermen are allowed to fish - this used to be 20nm and (IIRC) since 2005 it's now at 6nm. But of course - it's the incompetent Gazans who are guilty that their fishing industry is dying off. Well how about agriculture then - that should work if nothing else. But again - as usually there, nothing is simple. Let's look at the Jordan Valley in the west bank - Israel also has settlers and outposts there that have tapped into aquifiers below and while the Israeli settlers enjoy lush greenery in their settlements and work their greenhouses, many neighbouring villages well's have gone dry and there simply is no water to use. Legal and fair? (GCIV prohibit exploitation of natural resources of occupied lands, but we, the western world, the guardians of justice and fairness in this world (cynism hat was firmly on writing this sentence) just keep on ignoring what is going on with our implicit approval).

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 276):
BTW, we have several hundred thousand Jewish people living in Germany, they are most welcome and can live wherever they want. Germany is an open minded country, we do not have reservations here.

And why wouldn't you? You need to realize that the problem is not Judaism or the Jewish people. The problem (on the Israeli side, the other side has their own problems as I've said before) is Zionism and their policies. You have fallen for the old trap that equates Zionism to Judaism, which is simply not true - you have Christian Zionists, and you have anti-Zionist Jews. Yet Zionism makes it easier on itself and simply labels anyone who is against their practices as anti-semitic rather than anti-Zionist.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-25 19:19:35 and read 3303 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 277):
I sincerely doubt that NAV was considering moving the problem from Israel to southern Germany today. He was talking about the end of WW2.

Of course - that's why I wrote in the past tense.....   Thanks for making the point for me, damirc.

Quoting damirc (Reply 277):
Let's look at the Jordan Valley in the west bank - Israel also has settlers and outposts there that have tapped into aquifers below and while the Israeli settlers enjoy lush greenery in their settlements and work their greenhouses, many neighbouring villages' wells have gone dry and there simply is no water to use.

Yes indeed - the perennial regional shortage of water is one of the main reasons why relations between Israel and Jordan are always tense; and also why the Israelis continue to 'de-house' and drive out the Palestinians living on the West Bank. That problem was obvious in 1948; and it was equally obvious that no such water problems would have arisen if 'Israel' had been established in Europe. So setting up 'Israel' in the Holy Land was a mistake in the first place - in geographical and town planning terms as well as political/religious ones.

Quoting damirc (Reply 277):
You need to realize that the problem is not Judaism or the Jewish people. The problem (on the Israeli side, the other side has their own problems as I've said before) is Zionism and their policies.

Exactly so...........

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-25 20:47:14 and read 3288 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 278):
Of course - that's why I wrote in the past tense..... Thanks for making the point for me, damirc.

Gladly  
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 278):

Yes indeed - the perennial regional shortage of water is one of the main reasons why relations between Israel and Jordan are always tense; and also why the Israelis continue to 'de-house' and drive out the Palestinians living on the West Bank. That problem was obvious in 1948; and it was equally obvious that no such water problems would have arisen if 'Israel' had been established in Europe. So setting up 'Israel' in the Holy Land was a mistake in the first place - in geographical and town planning terms as well as political/religious ones.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4281127,00.html does point to the same study showing that the West Bank has lost access to 82% of it's ground water.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a mistake founding Israel where it is today (the people do have historic connection to the place, no such connection exists to southern Germany) - but the way it was done could've been a lot different. Be that as it may, Israel is here and both Israelis and Palestinians are in need of peace.  

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2012-11-26 02:49:12 and read 3261 times.

Ehud Barak resigns - Says leaving politics for good.

Israel Defense Minister Ehud Barak announced Monday that he is resigning from politics and will not contend in the upcoming Knesset election. He will complete his term as defense minister, he said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4311733,00.html

Defense minister announces he is quitting public life to spend more time with family; 'I want to study, write, live and have a good time, he says. Minister Erdan: Barak misread political climate in Mideast

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20493758

  

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-11-26 04:05:06 and read 3250 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 279):
I wouldn't necessarily call it a mistake founding Israel where it is today (the people do have historic connection to the place, no such connection exists to southern Germany)

Have to disagree, damirc. Any 'historic connection' to Palestine was around 2,000 years ago. There is no record of any Palestinian Jews dying in the Holocaust - and this says that, as far as is known, more than half the 'six million' were from Poland and Russia:-

http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/bldied.htm

The surviving (overwhelmingly European) Jews obviously had a justifiable claim to some sort of 'safe haven,' if they wanted one. But locating it in Palestine made no sense at all, in historical, practical, political, or racial terms. As you implied above, it was the Zionists, not the Jewish religion as a whole, who used the Holocaust as an excuse effectively to take the blameless Palestinians' homeland by force.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 280):
Israel Defense Minister Ehud Barak announced Monday that he is resigning from politics and will not contend in the upcoming Knesset election. He will complete his term as defense minister, he said.

Apparently Barak (as an ex-soldier and current Defence Minister) has been saying that the present (army-backed) occupation/'colonisation' of large areas of the West Bank is not practical in the long term, and should be discontinued.

On the face of it that would have to be 'hara kiri' for any Israeli politician hoping for re-election?

"Mr Barak said it would be preferable to reach a peace deal with the Palestinians, but that after four years of deadlock, Israel had to "take practical steps to start a separation".

"He told Israel Hayom that his plan for unilateral disengagement would see the dismantling of dozens of isolated settlements, but the retention of the settlement blocs of Etzion, Maale Adumim and Ariel, where 80% to 90% of the settler population lives.

"It will be a big achievement if we manage to keep them inside Israel's permanent borders," he said.

"The Palestinians have demanded an end to Israeli settlement building as a prerequisite for peace talks The remaining settlers would be given financial incentives to leave or be allowed to remain in their homes under Palestinian control for a "trial period" of five years, he added."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19700213

[Edited 2012-11-26 04:11:13]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-26 07:28:06 and read 3197 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 281):
Have to disagree, damirc. Any 'historic connection' to Palestine was around 2,000 years ago. There is no record of any Palestinian Jews dying in the Holocaust - and this says that, as far as is known, more than half the 'six million' were from Poland and Russia:-

True, that the historic connection is 2000 years old, but be realistic - there was no real place in Europe for them to resettle to (at least none that was all too friendly for starters). Palestine was a better option. I do not oppose that Israel was created where it was, I do oppose how the local populace was dealt with.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 281):
The surviving (overwhelmingly European) Jews obviously had a justifiable claim to some sort of 'safe haven,' if they wanted one. But locating it in Palestine made no sense at all, in historical, practical, political, or racial terms. As you implied above, it was the Zionists, not the Jewish religion as a whole, who used the Holocaust as an excuse effectively to take the blameless Palestinians' homeland by force.

One of the main reasons why the Holocaust was so "successful" in the beginning was the fact that the Jewish population was settled in a rather large area and the Nazis were able to effectively separate them and deal with each population center separaterly with hardly any news of the systematic destruction reaching outside of the population center affected. For example the Jewish population in Vilnius was being systematically destroyed while the Jews of Warsaw or elsewhere hardly knew what was going on (there was some minimal information leakage, but it was basically treated as "unconfirmed and not plausible" - so there were no massive uprisings).

If you mention Poland and Ukraine - you also need to realize, that the Jews there were not really in a good position even before the Shoah. There was massive prejudice against them, there were pogroms against them (and this was before Hitler came to power). They did need their own separate land. Palestine was a good option, but as stated before - had the situation been handled better (and with cooperation with the native people) we wouldn't be debating it here today. While southern Germany would be a "fair" option as punishment for the Germans I doubt any of the Jews would really appreciate being made to live next door to the people who up until yesterday tried to exterminate them. And I do feel that such an action would've rekindled support for the Nazi cause in a massive way - so while it was an option, would've been fair - it was impractical and offering more problems than solutions.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 281):
As you implied above, it was the Zionists, not the Jewish religion as a whole, who used the
Holocaust as an excuse effectively to take the blameless Palestinians' homeland by force.

I think you misunderstood me. I don't dispute that Zionism was working for the benefit of the Jews (and Zionism predates the Holocaust by nearly 60 years). Where I do take serious issue with Zionism is from the mid 1940s onwards. Zionism lost any credibility in my eyes from them on. And from then on (and this is my opinion only, not a fact) Zionism has done Judaism more harm than good.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-26 07:38:16 and read 3195 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 276):
After the horrors of 2 world wars and the holocaust your "solution" is to go back on start and produce the next couple of wars?

There were plenty of border changes brought about by the end of WW2, and several countries lost quite a bit of territory - that hasn't caused any major strife in Europe in 67 years, so why would NAV20s proposal have caused any more?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-11-26 14:41:46 and read 3139 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 257):
You'd rather have them take up arms, like dumb fools, knowing full well that they won't get anywhere by fighting Israel?

What has not fighting Israel gotten the Palestinians in the West Bank? Have the settlements stopped? Is a lasting peace agreement anywhere in sight? Has Israel taken down the border wall and lifted the border restrictions?

Seems like not fighting Israel hasn't gotten them anywhere either, so you'd have to think long and hard if you were a Palestinian in Gaza about trying that course of action. Especially when it's pretty clear that most of the world isn't going to pay any attention to your very real problems unless you're shelling Israel. Why would you give up that publicity for what has historically been no benefit to your people?

BTW, there's only one party to blame for the stability in the West Bank going unrewarded: Israel. They could stop settlement expansion tomorrow and show that they're serious about making progress if the Palestinians take steps to get their own house in order. But they don't.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-26 19:53:14 and read 3070 times.

It doesn't look too good for the Palestinian Authority to have it's status upgraded to non-member observer later this week.

Lobbying is underway   ... http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=293583

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-26 20:08:11 and read 3067 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 285):
It doesn't look too good for the Palestinian Authority to have it's status upgraded to non-member observer later this week.

Well, according to the SMH, they are somewhat more bullish than the Jpost.

"There are no vetoes in the General Assembly and the resolution, which needs a majority vote for approval, is virtually certain to be adopted."

http://www.smh.com.au/world/palestin...n-on-un-status-20121127-2a4sj.html

I just don't understand why the US is so very much opposed to this idea.

Also about $US200 million ($A191 million) in development aid to the Palestinian Authority is currently blocked in the US Congress, the State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said that could also be at risk.

"Obviously, if they take this step it's going to complicate the way the Congress looks at the Palestinians," Ms Nuland told a briefing.

So the US is now resorting to blackmailing......

Shocking !

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/palestin...-20121127-2a4sj.html#ixzz2DOOwfUHm

I say good luck to them, I hope they succeed.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-26 20:23:41 and read 3062 times.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 286):
I just don't understand why the US is so very much opposed to this idea.

I don't know, and I really hate generalizing and over-simplifying things, but it appears that (simply) anything that is even remotely pro-Palestinian or not 100% agreeing with the Israeli government is seen as bad to many people.

I know that the US has a strong Israeli bias, maybe even among some of our liberals, but it's kinda ridiculous seeing the unconditional support Israel receives and how the Palestinians can just do no right...

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-26 20:28:49 and read 3063 times.

The Guardian is reporting that Britain might vote in support of the Palestinian bid.

Quote:
On Monday night, the government signalled it would change tack and vote yes if the Palestinians modified their application, which is to be debated by the UN general assembly in New York later this week. As a "non-member state", Palestine would have the same status as the Vatican.

However, this is said to be based on the Palestinians being ready to restart negotiations "without conditions" and on no application by Palestine to apply for membership of the international criminal court or the international court of justice. Do you notice how those who require Palestine to act "without conditions" nevertheless impose their own?

Why would there be a demand that Palestine not have membership of the ICC and ICJ? We are constantly told that Israel is a country "ruled by law". What would they have to fear? Perhaps charges for war crimes or for compensation.

But there is a third condition. That the Security Council does not have to follow suit is the resolution is passed in the General Assembly. In other words Britain will give token support but not substantial support. The Palestinians can sit in meetings and make statements but will not have any real say in things and the Security Council can safely ignore them.

Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-26 20:31:59 and read 3061 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 288):

I'm not too familiar with the inner workings of the UN... is this vote one of the votes that the US can simply veto and stop, or is it just a majority of countries thing? I think the former is regarding the UN security counsel but I may be wrong

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-26 20:49:02 and read 3056 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 289):
or is it just a majority of countries thing?

On this matter it is. Majority rules, despite what the US thinks.

However, from the article I posted, it seems as though the US is working overtime, behind the scenes, with other countries, to stop the vote even taking place on a point "technicality" ?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-26 20:50:13 and read 3054 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 289):
is this vote one of the votes that the US can simply veto and stop

Votes in the General Assembly are on the basis of majorities but its resolutions are not binding. It can adopt resolutions and make recommendations but it decisions are not binding unless referred to the Security Council. On the Security Council the Permanent Members have a power of veto. So, in theory, you could have 14 of the 15 members being in favour of something and one member could block its adoption by exercising their power of veto. The Permanent Members are Britain, China, France, Russia and the United States.

The position adopted by Britain, as reported in the Guardian, allows Britain to appear to be sympathetic towards the plight of the Palestinians without having to press the issue in the Security Council.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-26 20:53:44 and read 3052 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 291):

Ah yes, sorry, should know this. Still probably know more about the UN than most the US population, sadly

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 290):
the US is working overtime, behind the scenes

I can imagine. I know we have some crazy leverage, somehow. Probably all that foreign aid we give, ugh...

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2012-11-27 03:52:28 and read 3015 times.

Not all hope is lost!

Tzipi Livni returns to Israel politics with new party

The former Israeli foreign minister, Tzipi Livni, has announced her return to politics as the head of a new party.
Ms Livni said "The Movement" would contest January's general election on a manifesto that included the pursuit of a peace deal with the Palestinians.
She said she would appeal to "people who do not have anyone to vote for."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20510263

I wish her the best and I hope she will win the majority or at least will be able to form a coalition in Knesset so she can become the new Israel Prime Minister.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4312312,00.html

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=293617

  


The other side of the coin:
Israel's most dangerous hawk Avigdor Lieberman tipped as new Defense chief in replacement of Ehud Barak.

PM Netanyahu on foreign minister Lieberman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRXM68R8NwY&feature=player_embedded

There are elections in Israel on January 22. Avigdor Lieberman's 'Yisrael Beitanu' party is surging in the polls. It's why Netanyahu invited him into his government as the Foreign Minister. Otherwise Lieberman might inch ahead and take power (depending of course on what the situation in the Middle East is like in January).

This is downright scary.

 Wow!    Wow!

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-27 06:14:41 and read 2988 times.

The Australian Government has announced that it will abstain when it comes to the vote on the admission of Palestine as a non-member State.

Apparently the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, was proposing a No vote. But within caucus there were those who argued for a yes vote. It seems that Gillard was unable to win over those who favoured recognition but was unwilling to support it. So Australia (recently elected to the Security Council) will abstain in the General Assembly.

Bob Carr, the Foreign Minister, says that this is a positive step as "voting no would have indicated Australia did not support Palestinian statehood in any context." He went on to say, "This vote had become a referendum on the idea of a Palestinian state, and if we'd voted no it would be widely interpreted that we don't support Palestinian statehood."

But it is clear that Australia doesn't wish to confirm support by voting yes. Why? That old chestnut about claims in the ICC and ICJ. If Israel has done no wrong and has complied with International Law, why would that be an issue?

It is interesting to consider the arguments put forward by those who favoured a "Yes" vote. Gareth Evans, the former Foreign Minister, argues that a Yes vote would have been the best way to shore up the Palestinian National Authority vis a vis Hamas. I do, however, disagree with his assertion "A yes vote or an abstention vote were equally acceptable and would be equally understood internationally," he said. A Yes vote would have been clear and unequivocal. An abstention smacks of what it is and summarised so clearly by Carr: "the decision to abstain will not damage Australia's relationship with the US".

And I guess in the world of realpolitik that is far more important than any rights for Palestinians.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-27 13:35:25 and read 2951 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 285):
It doesn't look too good for the Palestinian Authority to have it's status upgraded to non-member observer later this week.

Its starting to look even better for the Palestinians and the vote. The French have decided support it.  http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ticle.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10850458

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-27 14:08:45 and read 2938 times.

What, may I ask, is the main reason for opposing a Palestinian state? Are there fears it would make Palestine stronger and more able to attack Israel? (Not saying that'll happen, just wondering the argument against statehood)

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2012-11-27 14:31:18 and read 2935 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 296):
What, may I ask, is the main reason for opposing a Palestinian state? Are there fears it would make Palestine stronger and more able to attack Israel?

The issue is that whenever the Israelis back away, Palestinians respond by throwing more bombs. look at what happened in Gaza - Israel withdrew unilaterally, settlers, soldiers and all. Except for the greenhouses in which the settlers had grown fruit and flowers for export. These were left intact to help Gaza’s economy — only to be trashed when the Palestinians took over.

Israel then declared its border with Gaza to be an international frontier, meaning that it renounced any claim to the territory and considered it an independent entity. In effect, Israel had created the first Palestinian state ever.

Palestinians in Gaza responded by voting in Hamas, and sending in more suicide bombers. After the Israelis said, OK, we are putting up a wall between us, Hamas brings in rockets from Iran.

Having seen what Palestinians do when given the opportunity to have their own country and live in peace, it's hardly any wonder why the idea of full statehood is not very popular unless it is demilitarized - which of course the Palestinians are against.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-27 15:12:05 and read 2927 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 297):
The issue is that whenever the Israelis back away, Palestinians respond by throwing more bombs. look at what happened in Gaza - Israel withdrew unilaterally, settlers, soldiers and all. Except for the greenhouses in which the settlers had grown fruit and flowers for export. These were left intact to help Gaza’s economy — only to be trashed when the Palestinians took over.

And then there is the West Bank, where the Palestinians are relatively peaceful and are being rewarded by new settlers perpetually. Yesterday Palestinians were prohibited from riding buses alongside settlers, because the settlers felt uneasy.

In regards to the Gaza green houses, it would be good if you would recheck your sources. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/in...t/15mideast.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1 claims that approximately half of them were dismantled when the settlers were moved back to Israel. Afterwards Israel turned off the water so those said greenhouses dried up - http://www.wnd.com/2005/08/32030/ (read the interview with Mrs. Tucker who used to own one of those greenhouses before the settlers withdrew: ". And yes, from September 2005 on those now-useless greenhouses were looted and material reused locally.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 297):
Israel then declared its border with Gaza to be an international frontier, meaning that it renounced any claim to the territory and considered it an independent entity. In effect, Israel had created the first Palestinian state ever.

Until they control the border crossings, the air space and the sea border I doubt we can talk about sovereignity.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-27 22:06:59 and read 2897 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 296):
What, may I ask, is the main reason for opposing a Palestinian state? Are there fears it would make Palestine stronger and more able to attack Israel? (Not saying that'll happen, just wondering the argument against statehood)

As I understand it (See link for the explanation) I think its primary something to do with the US Senate, not being able to give aid money to the Palestinians it they claim any sort of UN status...

http://972mag.com/us-senate-passes-r...equivocal-no-to-palestinian-state/

Go figure ?

What I can't understand about this, is why would that make any difference to the Senate ?

It is enshrined in US law I think it moght ?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 297):
The issue is that whenever the Israelis back away, Palestinians respond by throwing more bombs.

Dreadnought, that's the whole problem....

The Israelis haven't backed away at all, in fact, they keep advancing steadily along, stealing more land as they go, deifying UN orders to stop with the settlements etc.

Is it any wonder that they, the Palestinians, continue to throw bombs.   

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 297):
Having seen what Palestinians do when given the opportunity to have their own country and live in peace, it's hardly any wonder why the idea of full statehood is not very popular unless it is demilitarized - which of course the Palestinians are against.

Do you think Israel would agree to demilitarize if the Palestinians did.

And the answer to that.... never. So why should they agree ?

[Edited 2012-11-27 22:11:19]

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: zkojq
Posted 2012-11-28 04:13:01 and read 2867 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 275):
there is a kind of 'folk memory' which leads to them feeling, however illogically, that they are entitled to special privileges on the basis of what happened to the European Jews 70 years ago, during WW2. And, by extension, also the right to persecute everybody else.........

   A genocide does not make a people above the law, or give them the right to act as if they are.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 275):
The south-west corner of Germany is (or was) relatively thinly-populated, zkojq. In addition, any new Jewish State located there would have had common borders with Switzerland and France as well as Germany; plus an internationally-protected water supply from the Rhine.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for explaining, NAV20.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 276):
If the Palestinians don't want to come to peace with Israel, they will continue to have a problem.

Yet Israel is making it clear that it has no intention to come to peace with Palestine...

Quoting Mir (Reply 284):
What has not fighting Israel gotten the Palestinians in the West Bank? Have the settlements stopped? Is a lasting peace agreement anywhere in sight? Has Israel taken down the border wall and lifted the border restrictions?

Either they loose, or they loose and get a bit of international attention and possibly sympathy. Hardly seems fair.

Quoting Mir (Reply 284):
BTW, there's only one party to blame for the stability in the West Bank going unrewarded: Israel. They could stop settlement expansion tomorrow and show that they're serious about making progress if the Palestinians take steps to get their own house in order. But they don't.

  

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 288):
Do you notice how those who require Palestine to act "without conditions" nevertheless impose their own?

Ironic, to say the least. That said, I would be rather surprised if Britain did vote yes.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 288):
on no application by Palestine to apply for membership of the international criminal court or the international court of justice.

Why the hell shouldn't the Palestinians do so? It is very sad when one country tries to stop another joining the ICC or ICOJ. Such dirty politics. I wonder what would happen if they were to to apply in five years time or so (assuming their current UN bid is successful).

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 288):
Why would there be a demand that Palestine not have membership of the ICC and ICJ? We are constantly told that Israel is a country "ruled by law". What would they have to fear?

  

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 294):
Apparently the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, was proposing a No vote.

Interesting. Wonder if that is because of her opinion on the matter or because of the lobbying.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 295):
The French have decided support it.

Not surprising France has always been sympathetic to the Palestinians.  
Quoting damirc (Reply 298):
Yesterday Palestinians were prohibited from riding buses alongside settlers, because the settlers felt uneasy.

Sounds very much like apartheid to me. What a sad direction the world is heading in.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 296):
What, may I ask, is the main reason for opposing a Palestinian state?

The US trying to flex imperialistic muscle? Seems like that from here, though the reality probably has a lot to do with AIPAC.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2012-11-28 05:14:51 and read 2849 times.

Israel carries out ground incursion into Lebanon
...
The Lebanese Army and the UN's international peacekeeping force in Lebanon, UNIFIL are on high alert.

http://english.al-akhbar.com/content...rries-out-ground-incursion-lebanon

 Wow!   

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: powerslide
Posted 2012-11-28 10:33:34 and read 2820 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 298):
Until they control the border crossings, the air space and the sea border I doubt we can talk about sovereignity.

They will never get control until they show they can act like human beings and not animals. Launching rockets into Israel won't get them sovereignty, just a quicker meeting with Allah in hell. In the end, all Hamas has to show for its efforts is a bunch of dead leaders, a stunted military capacity, Egypt giving it a bit of a cold shoulder and the world seeing your guys dragging corpses around the streets with motorcycles....

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-28 10:41:45 and read 2817 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 303):
They will never get control until they show they can act like human beings and not animals.

Maybe the world could start by treating them like humans then.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 303):
Launching rockets into Israel won't get them sovereignty,

Judging by how Israel put pressure on the British in the 1940s, it does seem to have worked just swell for Israel.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 303):
Egypt giving it a bit of a cold shoulder and the world seeing your guys dragging corpses around the streets with motorcycles

My guys? Well. There are no "my guys" there. Genetically speaking the majority of the population of Israel would be closer. You still fail to see that they have been wronged. It's easier demonizing them if you don't see what has happened to them.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: powerslide
Posted 2012-11-28 11:00:33 and read 2812 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 304):
Maybe the world could start by treating them like humans then.

They haven't earned that right yet.

Quoting damirc (Reply 304):
Judging by how Israel put pressure on the British in the 1940s, it does seem to have worked just swell for Israel.

Seems to be working for Gaza...ha.

Quoting damirc (Reply 304):
My guys? Well. There are no "my guys" there.

You read that wrong. "your guys" was in relation to hamas, not you.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-28 15:02:14 and read 2786 times.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 299):
As I understand it (See link for the explanation) I think its primary something to do with the US Senate, not being able to give aid money to the Palestinians it they claim any sort of UN status...

I hope you're wrong because that reason is pretty ridiculous

Quoting powerslide (Reply 305):
Quoting damirc (Reply 304):
Maybe the world could start by treating them like humans then.

They haven't earned that right yet.

You realize they are pissed off and acting up because they're being treated poorly? It isn't just one sided. I don't condone many of the Palestinian actions and I won't just ignore what Israel does. I'm not being anti-Semite or anything, I'm trying to be as fair as possible

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCol
Posted 2012-11-28 16:23:06 and read 2772 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 296):

Kind of hard to establish a Palestinian state when the West Bank and Gaza are operating as 2 separate entities, controlled by 2 different factions. Establishing a Palestinian state isn't going to make Hamas and the various Islamofacist militias go away, especially when Iran is holding the reigns. It's doubtful the international community will recognize a Palestinian state until they rid themselves of Hamas, and stop acting like Iranian pawns. In other words: they have to earn it like everybody else has.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: lewis
Posted 2012-11-28 16:46:26 and read 2761 times.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 307):
In other words: they have to earn it like everybody else has.

Shall we start counting all the countries that were established and recognized after going through a revolution and/or armed conflict against what they considered an oppressing/occupying force? What about nations that were shaped and recognized after long wars between two or more groups?

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-11-28 17:08:49 and read 2749 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 305):
Quoting damirc (Reply 304):
Maybe the world could start by treating them like humans then.

They haven't earned that right yet.

Don't be ridiculous. They earned that right by being born.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-28 17:24:34 and read 2738 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 306):
I hope you're wrong because that reason is pretty ridiculous

Ridiculous is an understatement alright !

Anyways........New developments on the Palestinian UN bid front.

Looks like Israel might be backing down somewhat, although, I'm reminded about the story of "how a leopard can't change its spots"   

http://www.smh.com.au/world/israel-b...-for-bid-firms-20121129-2ah61.html

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: powerslide
Posted 2012-11-28 17:25:46 and read 2743 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 306):
You realize they are pissed off and acting up because they're being treated poorly?

By whom? The Israelis or the rest of the Arab world. Iran sending weapons isn't exactly helping the quality of life of the Palestinians. Israel aren't saints to the Pale's but they, the Israeli's, are only reacting militarily because Hamas is threatening the state. You take care of your own people first and worry about your enemy later. So far, Israel is doing a much better job than Hamas is.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 307):
Kind of hard to establish a Palestinian state when the West Bank and Gaza are operating as 2 separate entities, controlled by 2 different factions.

This is one of the reasons why a two state solution won't happen. What are you going to do, build a tunnel...land bridge over Israel? I don't think so. The West Bank will probably be integrated into Israel and Gaza will become a testing ground for the IDFs new military weapons.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: lewis
Posted 2012-11-28 18:06:13 and read 2727 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 311):
This is one of the reasons why a two state solution won't happen. What are you going to do, build a tunnel...land bridge over Israel? I don't think so.

It won't be the first case of two separated pieces of land being governed by the same entity. Take Alaska for the US, Kaliningrad for Russia and Gibraltar for the UK.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 311):
Gaza will become a testing ground for the IDFs new military weapons.

As if it already isn't.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-11-28 18:57:05 and read 2717 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 311):
By whom? The Israelis or the rest of the Arab world. Iran sending weapons isn't exactly
helping the quality of life of the Palestinians.

Bad quality of life and the situation they are in at the moment (including the Hamas leadership) can largely be attributed to Israel, I'm afraid. (not to be nitpicky, but Iran is not really Arab - Muslim yes, Arab no). And yes, that Iranian support for Hamas (and Hamas itself) worries me. I don't see them going peacefully. It would serve both sides well if Fatah were offered support by "third parties" to remove the radical elements from both Gaza and the West Bank once they return to the peace negotiations.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 311):
What are you going to do, build a tunnel...land bridge over Israel?

Considering the West Bank is currently riddled with Israeli-use only land-bridges (roads for settlers and Israelis alone, the Palestinians get no access) - why should Israel worry? They've shown it's a working principle for them in the West Bank.

D.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-29 08:00:29 and read 2682 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 311):

I don't know what to tell you... obviously the Palestinians are pissed and lashing out. You can justify it all you want and not work on rectifying the situation, but that isn't going to change anything

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: powerslide
Posted 2012-11-29 10:45:05 and read 2670 times.

Thankfully, Canada isn't backing down.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/baird-going...inian-statehood-bid-012545395.html

Quote:
Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird says he'll travel to New York Thursday and will oppose any "unilateral" move by the Palestinian Authority for statehood at the United Nations.

Interim Liberal Leader Bob Rae said his party does not support the motion before the UN but predicts it will be accepted by the General Assembly.
"I have to say that I see the UN resolution as a bit of a diversion," Rae said.
"Yes, it's going to cause a big flurry.… but frankly that resolution doesn't take us any further. And the real key issue is to get the parties in front of each other and talking about negotiations."

Gaza has no place in the UN as long as Hamas is in control.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-11-29 13:34:05 and read 2643 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 311):
This is one of the reasons why a two state solution won't happen.

Oh powerslide, I know you really want to believe that, but it will eventually happen, after today, the Palestinians are one step closer.......   

Just a matter of time now.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 315):
Thankfully, Canada isn't backing down.

Who cares about Canada. Its a majority decision, that's all that counts.  

Have a look at this map, puts it all into perspective for you. But you'd better grab the box of Kleenex, cause you wont be happy.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...easingly-isolated.premium-1.481242

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-29 14:36:00 and read 2623 times.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 315):
Gaza has no place in the UN as long as Hamas is in control.

I can see this concern as legitimate. It is probably the only anti-Palestinian argument I've seen that holds water. Ultimately, though, I think that their recognition will bring peace closer so I support Palestinian statehood

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: TheCol
Posted 2012-11-29 16:06:50 and read 2610 times.

Quoting lewis (Reply 308):

That's generally how it works. They'll have to defeat Hamas and the Islamofacist militias, and play nicely with everyone else, before a Palestinian state can be established.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 315):
Gaza has no place in the UN as long as Hamas is in control.

  

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: lewis
Posted 2012-11-29 16:12:19 and read 2606 times.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 318):

That's generally how it works. They'll have to defeat Hamas and the Islamofacist militias, and play nicely with everyone else, before a Palestinian state can be established.

Not the point I was making at all, obviously you know that too, but whatever works for you.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: lewis
Posted 2012-11-29 18:00:16 and read 2584 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 321):
Probably the most barbaric comment I've seen in a while.

Want a bet?

Quoting powerslide (Reply 311):
Gaza will become a testing ground for the IDFs new military weapons.
Quoting powerslide (Reply 305):
Quoting damirc (Reply 304):
Maybe the world could start by treating them like humans then.

They haven't earned that right yet.
Quote:

the Arab region will be completely meaningless on the world stage, much like the native population in Canada and the US.

I am sorry poweslide, but your comments are beyond barbaric, borderline racist/supremacist if you ask me - portraying people in such a sub-human way.

Topic: RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2012-11-29 19:50:07 and read 2572 times.

This thread has run it's course and will be locked to all further posts.
Blue


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