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Topic: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: CXB77L
Posted 2012-11-24 04:30:17 and read 4151 times.

So here we are at the final race of the 2012 season in Sao Paulo. At stake is the driver's championship. Vettel leads Alonso by 13 points, so:

Vettel 1st to 4th - Vettel wins title
Alonso 4th or lower - Vettel wins title
Alonso 1st and Vettel 5th or lower - Alonso wins title
Alonso 2nd and Vettel 8th or lower - Alonso wins title
Alonso 3rd and Vettel 9th or lower - Alonso wins title

In P1 and P2, Hamilton had been the quickest driver, followed by Vettel and Webber. Button was fourth in P1 and Massa fourth in P2, while Alonso was fifth in both sessions. But that could account for nought as rain is forecast on Sunday.

I've no doubt of Vettel's talents in the wet, but with wet weather comes the increased likelihood of a safety car, so a 30 second lead could turn into a 0.5 second lead in a flash. A badly timed pitstop could prove disastrous. Anything can still happen.

Hopefully, Vettel becomes F1's youngest ever triple world champion and only the third driver in F1 history to win three titles in a row.      

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: CXB77L
Posted 2012-11-25 03:57:58 and read 4059 times.

Qualifying's been and gone, and the McLarens seem to be unstoppable. Not to worry, Vettel doesn't need to win the race to win the title  

With Maldonado's penalty, Alonso moves up a spot on the grid and will start 7th, while Vettel starts 4th. Should be an interesting race, especially with the rain being forecast. I can't wait!

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: CPH-R
Posted 2012-11-25 08:05:19 and read 4024 times.

Well that was an interesting twist to the start...

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: travelavnut
Posted 2012-11-25 08:36:31 and read 4015 times.

Haha amazing race up until now!

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: iFlyLOTs
Posted 2012-11-25 09:56:25 and read 3988 times.

So. Much. Rain.   

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: ncfc99
Posted 2012-11-25 10:54:18 and read 3945 times.

Anyone have any thoughts on Vettl overtaking under yellow? Will Ferrari appeal?

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-25 11:03:56 and read 3940 times.

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 5):

He didn't, it was not a yellow - it was a slippery surface warning, subtly different and carries no penalty.

This was tweeted by Martin Brundle a few minutes ago.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: Charles79
Posted 2012-11-25 11:25:37 and read 3925 times.

Quoting CXB77L (Thread starter):
Hopefully, Vettel becomes F1's youngest ever triple world champion and only the third driver in F1 history to win three titles in a row.

Well your hopes (and mine) became a reality!!!!        

It was a thrilling race with the WDC changing hands several times depending on the conditions. Both drivers drove very measured races, being careful when they needed to be and always keeping their eyes on the bigger picture.

Vettel has now joined the most elite group in the F1 history books...with more to come I'm sure!

Charles

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: scbriml
Posted 2012-11-25 13:16:52 and read 3862 times.

Well congratulations to Vettel.

However, IMHO, he is a VERY lucky boy. How he didn't get taken out completely on the first lap is a mystery to me. Alonso overachieved again, but it wasn't enough to take the WDC.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: racko
Posted 2012-11-25 14:20:52 and read 3840 times.

In this race

- It rained. Ferrari was praying for rain.
- Alonso got moved up the grid on the clean side because of the Maldonado penalty
- Vettel gets wedged between his team mate and the pit wall at the start
- Vettel has a collision in lap 1, putting him in last place and severely damaging his car
- The damage is unfixable (i.e. not the front wing)
- Massa pushes Webber wide, allowing Alonso to overtake him
- Alonso basically requests a safety car on the radio, gets it, which moves him from 1 minute to 1 second down to P1
- Hamilton crashes out
- Hülkenberg gets a penalty that puts him behind Alonso but in front of Vettel

And Vettel still is the "VERY lucky" one? He actually has to die on track to get any sort of credit, right.

Anyway:

Three time consecutive world champions:
FANGIO - SCHUMACHER - VETTEL

Deal with it.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-25 14:31:01 and read 3833 times.

Would Alonso really have savoured a WDC win that came about through his opponent being taken out by the midfield rather than a race to the finish line?

Alonso got his race, and in the end he was beaten.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: ncfc99
Posted 2012-11-25 14:49:31 and read 3826 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 6):
Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 5):
He didn't, it was not a yellow - it was a slippery surface warning, subtly different and carries no penalty.

This was tweeted by Martin Brundle a few minutes ago.

Thats good news, it would have tainted a win for Alonso had anthing have come of it.

Vettel thoroughly deserves the title, but Alonso has driven superbly to get a less capable within a whisker of the title. More of the same next year please.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: flood
Posted 2012-11-25 15:35:08 and read 3812 times.

Quoting racko (Reply 9):
And Vettel still is the "VERY lucky" one? He actually has to die on track to get any sort of credit, right.

Apparently. Vettel was also fortunate to have an extra pit stop - which they then totally botched, possibly due to the radio problems the lucky chap was having  

Anyway, fantastic drive by Vettel and a well-deserved third title. A great race to end a great season.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: CXB77L
Posted 2012-11-25 18:31:54 and read 3783 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 6):
He didn't, it was not a yellow - it was a slippery surface warning, subtly different and carries no penalty.

Thanks for the clarification. We didn't get to see the replay of that particular incident on the coverage here in Australia, so I had been worried that there would be a protest of some sort.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 7):
It was a thrilling race with the WDC changing hands several times depending on the conditions. Both drivers drove very measured races, being careful when they needed to be and always keeping their eyes on the bigger picture.

It was indeed a thrilling race. Nail biting stuff. I wasn't sure if I could stand so much excitement over two hours ... but I came through  
Quoting Charles79 (Reply 7):
Vettel has now joined the most elite group in the F1 history books...with more to come I'm sure!

Sure there will, but I doubt it'll be next year, actually, because this year Red Bull have shown signs of vulnerability with their lack of straight line speed. I think McLaren will be the team to beat next year.

Quoting flood (Reply 12):
Apparently. Vettel was also fortunate to have an extra pit stop - which they then totally botched, possibly due to the radio problems the lucky chap was having

A lot has been made about Vettel's "luck" and Alonso's lack thereof, but I think it's just bulldust, frankly, when the entire season is taken into account.

Quoting flood (Reply 12):
Anyway, fantastic drive by Vettel and a well-deserved third title. A great race to end a great season.

 checkmark 

It has been a great season. I can't remember the last time we had so many different winners in a season. The fact that Williams - my favourite team - had an unexpected race win makes it all the better for me  Smile

[Edited 2012-11-25 18:35:13]

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: scbriml
Posted 2012-11-25 22:20:17 and read 3748 times.

Quoting racko (Reply 9):

That's a large chip on your shoulder.   

Vettel was very lucky his car wasn't destroyed in his accident (which was his of own making). Did Vettel deserve to win the title? See below.

Quoting moo (Reply 10):
Would Alonso really have savoured a WDC win that came about through his opponent being taken out by the midfield rather than a race to the finish line?

I bet he would, as would any driver in that position. The driver with the most points at the end of the season deserves the title, regardless of how those points are accumulated.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: stealthz
Posted 2012-11-26 00:23:40 and read 3725 times.

Gracious in defeat... far be it for the self centred folk at the Scuderia

Alonso-

Quoting Autosport:
"The championship was not lost here," said Alonso. "The championship was lost when [Romain] Grosjean flew over my head [at Spa] or when Vettel surprisingly only got a reprimand after qualifying in Japan.

Domenicali-

Quoting Autosport:
"Watch the facts," he said. "Zero points in two races so we have done what we have done with 18 races. The others had 20 – and the points were over 20 races. These are facts, not words."

Get over it guys you lost the championship because you were three points behind when the Chequred Flag fell at Interlagos. When the flag falls at the last race is the only time championship points count... your job is to have more at that point... you failed.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-11-26 00:48:43 and read 3716 times.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 15):
Get over it guys you lost the championship because you were three points behind when the Chequred Flag fell at Interlagos

Italian-Ferrari mentality for you.
As much as I would liked to see Alonso go home with the title, Vettel drove a good chaotic race yesterday.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-26 02:58:15 and read 3691 times.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 15):
Domenicali

He seems to ignore the fact that Vettel failed to score in three races...

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2012-11-26 03:00:14 and read 3691 times.

Sky Sports Formula 1 2012 - 20 Brazilian GP - Post-Race: Beautiful end for Schumacher

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=74wP-Ou3iGc

Wonderful Schumi!!! He gets to take his Silver Arrow back home with him. So well deserved.
We will be missing him on the racing tracks but I know for sure that we will be seeing him again!

        

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: Charles79
Posted 2012-11-26 07:01:24 and read 3640 times.

Quoting racko (Reply 9):
And Vettel still is the "VERY lucky" one? He actually has to die on track to get any sort of credit, right.

Excellent summary!

Yes, Vettel is "lucky" in the sense that his race wasn't worse than it was (after all, that recurrent alternator issue could've re-appeared and finished his race completely) but to claim that Alonso (or any other top driver) did not receive outside help is simply rubbish. Alonso failed to score in two races? Vettel failed to score in three. Alonso didn't have a top car to compete with? Well, the Red Bull wasn't the top car in many races this season.

What we learned this season, though, is that both drivers tried and did extract the most out of their machinery (simply look at the gigantic gap in points between Vettel and Webber or Alonso and Massa). Both drivers were lucky in their own way but at the same time they both drove brilliantly when it mattered during the season. Most drivers are either lucky or good...World Champions are both lucky and good.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 13):
Sure there will, but I doubt it'll be next year, actually, because this year Red Bull have shown signs of vulnerability with their lack of straight line speed. I think McLaren will be the team to beat next year.

I suspect that you might be right...McLaren does have a compelling package and it was the car to beat for most of this season (the botched up pit stops during the opening rounds robbed them of a potentially better result). Unfortunately for McLaren their best driver left, leaving the team with a large gulf in capability between its drivers next season.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-26 07:31:23 and read 3631 times.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 19):
the botched up pit stops during the opening rounds robbed them of a potentially better result

And the gearbox reliability issues robbed them of quite a few points in the end...

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-11-27 22:59:05 and read 3516 times.

Not sure how desperate Kamui is, but looking at the following I say pretty screwed up desperate!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104619

This is more embarrassing then fun. An F1 driver having to do this means your out of business dude!

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: Bill142
Posted 2012-11-27 23:20:01 and read 3512 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 20):
And the gearbox reliability issues robbed them of quite a few points in the end...

Had Hamilton finished in Singapore it would have added a different dynamic to the championship. But no sense contemplating what ifs.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 19):
I suspect that you might be right...McLaren does have a compelling package and it was the car to beat for most of this season (the botched up pit stops during the opening rounds robbed them of a potentially better result). Unfortunately for McLaren their best driver left, leaving the team with a large gulf in capability between its drivers next season.

Sometimes I think McLarens system driven environment does them more harm then good.

Quoting sudden (Reply 21):
This is more embarrassing then fun. An F1 driver having to do this means your out of business dude!

Look at what happened to Rubens and Kamui has nothing on him.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-11-28 00:39:08 and read 3503 times.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 22):
Look at what happened to Rubens and Kamui has nothing on him.

Kamui is just a has been. And that's about it. Having his fans raise money for him is just sad.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: Bill142
Posted 2012-11-28 00:53:17 and read 3502 times.

Quoting sudden (Reply 23):
Kamui is just a has been. And that's about it. Having his fans raise money for him is just sad.

Was probably all from 1 fan anyway.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-11-28 00:55:27 and read 3517 times.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 24):
Was probably all from 1 fan anyway.

yeah, MadameC!

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-28 03:48:26 and read 3490 times.

http://maxgif.com/8cA

Says it all really  

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-11-28 03:56:38 and read 3496 times.

Bottas and Maldonado confirmed for next year
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2012/11/14133.html

And Montezemolo is at it again! Why not simply accept being defeated instead of start firing staff and so forth. In my mind he's major a$$hole!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104616

[Edited 2012-11-28 03:59:58]

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2012-11-28 04:06:44 and read 3491 times.

Quoting sudden (Reply 23):
Kamui is just a has been. And that's about it

Following your logic and looking at the 2012 F1 WDC standings, there is a good number of more "has beens" than KK including the only 7 times F1 world champion Michael Schumacher!

I suppose that from Charles Pic down to Pedro de la Rosa they are all "super has been" according to your logic?

This is your full list of Formula 1 "has beens".

12 Kamui Kobayashi Japanese Sauber-Ferrari 60
13 Michael Schumacher German Mercedes 49
14 Paul di Resta British Force India-Mercedes 46
15 Pastor Maldonado Venezuelan Williams-Renault 45
16 Bruno Senna Brazilian Williams-Renault 31
17 Jean-Eric Vergne French STR-Ferrari 16
18 Daniel Ricciardo Australian STR-Ferrari 10
19 Vitaly Petrov Russian Caterham-Renault 0
20 Timo Glock German Marussia-Cosworth 0
21 Charles Pic French Marussia-Cosworth 0
22 Heikki Kovalainen Finnish Caterham-Renault 0
23 Jerome D'Ambrosio Belgian Lotus-Renault 0
24 Narain Karthikeyan Indian HRT-Cosworth 0
25 Pedro de la Rosa Spanish HRT-Cosworth 0


I have another list of "has beens" according to your logic at the final GP in Brazil

9 14 Kamui Kobayashi Sauber-Ferrari 71 +31.2 secs 14 2
10 9 Kimi Räikkönen Lotus-Renault 70 +1 Lap 8 1
11 21 Vitaly Petrov Caterham-Renault 70 +1 Lap 19
12 25 Charles Pic Marussia-Cosworth 70 +1 Lap 22
13 16 Daniel Ricciardo STR-Ferrari 70 +1 Lap 15
14 20 Heikki Kovalainen Caterham-Renault 70 +1 Lap 20
15 8 Nico Rosberg Mercedes 70 +1 Lap 9
16 24 Timo Glock Marussia-Cosworth 70 +1 Lap 21
17 22 Pedro de la Rosa HRT-Cosworth 69 +2 Laps 24
18 23 Narain Karthikeyan HRT-Cosworth 69 +2 Laps 23
19 11 Paul di Resta Force India-Mercedes 68 +3 Laps 10
Ret 4 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 54 Accident 1
Ret 10 Romain Grosjean Lotus-Renault 5 Accident 18
Ret 18 Pastor Maldonado Williams-Renault 1 Accident 16
Ret 19 Bruno Senna Williams-Renault 0 Accident 11
Ret 15 Sergio Perez Sauber-Ferrari 0 Accident 12


Your hero Nico Hulkenberg, Kamui's replacement at Sauber, was not even capable of scoring one podium during the whole 2012 season. At least Maldonado managed to win a race.

I wonder... what has Kamui done to you personally that you hate him so much?

    Wow!

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-11-28 04:40:37 and read 3481 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 28):
Following your logic and looking at the 2012 F1 WDC standings, there is a good number of more "has beens" than KK including the only 7 times F1 world champion Michael Schumacher!

If you want to try and throw something at me, then try to do it properly.
Schumi is great has been driving around in his own shadow. He finally leaves the sport.
And looking at your so called stats it holds no ground. Has Kamui a drive for next year? No! Charles Pic advancing up the grid, not outside it!
So again, do at least try to throw something at me that makes sence.
I know, for you that will be very difficult as you simply know nothing about the sport in general.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2012-11-28 04:51:46 and read 3472 times.

Quoting sudden (Reply 29):
you simply know nothing about the sport in general.

... as if you knew anything about it yourself.
I was already hanging out at Le Mans while you wasn't even born.

    

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-28 04:52:47 and read 3471 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 28):

Poor poor MadameConcorde, all her favourites are turning out to be drivers no one wants to employ any more...

Can't say much else about Kobayashi than that - no one wants to employ him. Nuff said really. He had 5 years to migrate from being a pay driver to being a paid driver, and he failed miserably - within 5 years, Vettel had gone from rookie to second in the WDC.

So yes, hes a has-been - he had his chance, he failed to improve and now he vacates his seat for someone else.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-28 04:53:28 and read 3470 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 30):
I was already hanging out at Le Mans while you wasn't even born.

That doesn't give you authority, it just gives you age  

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-11-28 05:07:41 and read 3462 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 30):
I was already hanging out at Le Mans while you wasn't even born.

Trust me, that's nothing to be proud of.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2012-11-28 05:12:37 and read 3460 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 31):
Poor poor MadameConcorde, all her favourites are turning out to be drivers no one wants to employ any more...

I like all F1 drivers. When was the last time you heard me saying anything bad about any or all? I may get saying something bad about their sponsors or close entourage (re: Hugo Chavez) but never the drivers themselves.

They all come and go. All of them. Be them Japanese or other.

No one is ever going to take Schumi's 7 World titles away from him. Let's see how long it will take for any driver to come up with a 7 title to equal Schumi. Not a done deal.

As to age, I would never want to be any other age or trade for anyone else's life. I am quite happy to be where I am at and in my shoes. Thanks.

     

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-11-28 05:24:28 and read 3456 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 34):
I like all F1 drivers. When was the last time you heard me saying anything bad about any or all?

I think you need to look at your history on Anet, and you will for sure find several examples.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 34):
They all come and go. All of them.

With Kamui going pretty fast. All the hype surrounding him was just crap as he did not climb the latter when he had the chance to. Now he can go race in DTM at the back of that grid with R. Schumacher. That's where most of the trash from F1 seem to end up.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-28 05:26:56 and read 3452 times.

Didnt see the race, as I was in my own on the Autobahn somewhere near Hamburg at that time and unhappily scored a point ;-(
Sounds like Vettel drove like a Champ. Congratulations to him, but I need to add that I still think the secondbest driver won the title this year.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-28 05:31:08 and read 3451 times.

Quoting sudden (Reply 27):
And Montezemolo is at it again! Why not simply accept being defeated instead of start firing staff and so forth. In my mind he's major a$$hole!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report...04616

Hello??????
Everything he says in this article is right, so why your hatred? And he doesnt say he will fire someone, only that the mistakes made in the early season shall not be repeated as it cost Ferrari the title. What can be more true I ask you?

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-28 05:36:09 and read 3445 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 34):
When was the last time you heard me saying anything bad about any or all?

I never said you did - however, it is clear from these threads that you have favourites...

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-11-28 05:37:31 and read 3449 times.

Hey ladies & gents ... I'm still recovering fron Sunday's race. Simply amazing. Could not have asked for a better race even though the result was not great!

Quoting stealthz (Reply 15):
Get over it guys you lost the championship because you were three points behind when the Chequred Flag fell at Interlagos. When the flag falls at the last race is the only time championship points count... your job is to have more at that point... you failed.

Well .. kind of. Ferrari failed in providing a fast car, but it did not fail in providing an unbreakable car. The fact remains that the only two races where Alonso did not get any points were becuase he suffered a crash. No mistake by Alonso or by Ferrari in those instances ..

Quoting sudden (Reply 16):
As much as I would liked to see Alonso go home with the title, Vettel drove a good chaotic race yesterday.

Honestly? He nearly ruined everything because of a poor start, and then just struggled to stay on track. I like Vettel usually, but he seemed sh*t scared on Sunday (which gven the circumstances, is understandable and by no means am I criticizing him for that).

Quoting moo (Reply 17):
He seems to ignore the fact that Vettel failed to score in three races...

But becaue of their mistake (team or driver).

And by the way, had this been the other way around, this thread would literally be on fire .... but Vettel should have recieved a penalty. Now .. should Ferrari claim this or not?

http://www.marca.com/2012/11/27/motor/formula1/1354040626.html

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-28 05:42:23 and read 3443 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 39):
But becaue of their mistake (team or driver).

The no-points score in Malaysia was due to Karthikeyan (who received a 20 second time penalty) - if he had remained in 4th position, he would have scored and extra 12 points.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-11-28 05:51:13 and read 3443 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 40):
The no-points score in Malaysia was due to Karthikeyan (who received a 20 second time penalty) - if he had remained in 4th position, he would have scored and extra 12 points.

Fair enough .. what about the other two? The math is pretty straight forward. Just with Grosjean's stunt the title would have gone to Alonso.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-28 05:58:00 and read 3433 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 41):
Just with Grosjean's stunt the title would have gone to Alonso.

And without Sennas stunt in Brazil, Vettel might have finished a lot higher than 6th...

Without Grosjeans stunt, Hamilton might have stayed in contention for a lot longer...

If buts and maybes - the title belongs to the winner, not the perhaps...

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2012-11-28 06:04:19 and read 3432 times.

Quoting na (Reply 37):
Quoting sudden (Reply 27):
And Montezemolo is at it again! Why not simply accept being defeated instead of start firing staff and so forth. In my mind he's major a$$hole!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report...04616

Hello??????
Everything he says in this article is right, so why your hatred? And he doesnt say he will fire someone, only that the mistakes made in the early season shall not be repeated as it cost Ferrari the title. What can be more true I ask you?

Well it seems that the poster knows more about F1 than anyone else, including Montezemolo himself.

Luca Cordero di Montezemolo, an attorney by trade, is no newbie and a great man. Former chairman of Maserati and of the Fiat Group, he certainly knows what he is talking about regarding the Ferrari team - the strong and weak points, Ferrari in general, he is a splendid manager and a man of value, one day to become the Italian Prime Minister.

--http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903927204576574544264598296.html--

 

[Edited 2012-11-28 06:09:42]

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-11-28 06:15:47 and read 3428 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 42):
And without Sennas stunt in Brazil, Vettel might have finished a lot higher than 6th...

ehh ... no, Vettel found himself in that position because he had a crappy start in the first place.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-11-28 06:22:37 and read 3420 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 43):
Well it seems that the poster knows more about F1 than anyone else, including Montezemolo himself.

And again, if you want to throw anything at me, try to at least be constructive.

Quoting na (Reply 37):
Hello??????

Eh, hello!?  
It's the same story every time Ferrari loses out. Result is that heads are rolling as they need to blame at least someone.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-28 06:24:07 and read 3429 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 44):
ehh ... no, Vettel found himself in that position because he had a crappy start in the first place.

Ahh so we can speculate about Alonso, but we can't about Vettel?

That's fairly ridiculous, and makes further discussion pointless.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2012-11-28 06:24:19 and read 3428 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 42):
And without Sennas stunt in Brazil, Vettel might have finished a lot higher than 6th...

Senna lost his seat with Williams. Will you call him a "has been" the same you did with KK?
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2012/11/14133.html

    Wow!  

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-28 06:27:16 and read 3431 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 47):
Senna lost his seat with Williams. Will you call him a "has been" the same you did with KK?

If no one wants to employ him, then yes.

Next question?

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2012-11-28 06:29:58 and read 3431 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 46):
so we can speculate about Alonso

Fernando Alonso is the driver of the year the same as Ferrari are the team of the year. They did as much as they could this season and the mistakes were minimal. Missed the WDC by 3 pts and claimed 2nd in WCC agaist McLaren who had a faster car maybe a better driver lineup.

  

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-28 06:32:43 and read 3424 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 49):
Fernando Alonso is the driver of the year the same as Ferrari are the team of the year

Opinion. Nothing more.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 49):
Fernando Alonso is the driver of the year the same as Ferrari are the team of the year. They did as much as they could this season and the mistakes were minimal. Missed the WDC by 3 pts and claimed 2nd in WCC agaist McLaren who had a faster car maybe a better driver lineup.

Your point is? Because I'm failing to see one.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-28 06:32:54 and read 3426 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 43):
Luca Cordero di Montezemolo, an attorney by trade, is no newbie and a great man. Former chairman of Maserati and of the Fiat Group, he certainly knows what he is talking about regarding the Ferrari team - the strong and weak points, Ferrari in general, he is a splendid manager and a man of value, one day to become the Italian Prime Minister.

--http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903927204576574544264598296.html--

 

I also always thought he´s one of the best Italian managers, and I have not seen anything changing that opinion. He started his career in the position Domenicali is now and who was Niki Laudas partner in winning the first title. I think he would indeed be a good candidate for prime minister. Ten times better than the old dirty man who had that job until recently for sure.

Quoting sudden (Reply 45):
It's the same story every time Ferrari loses out. Result is that heads are rolling ...

And surely that never happens anywhere else...

Quoting sudden (Reply 45):
... as they need to blame at least someone.

Blame someone? Or find someone responsible and fire him? You´re so negative, man.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-11-28 06:45:22 and read 3436 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 46):
Ahh so we can speculate about Alonso, but we can't about Vettel?

Of course you can. But you can't speculate on facts. Fact 1. Vettel had a bad start, which caused him to find himslef in the middle of the pack. He put himself at risk (and was lucky as hell to drive out of there!). Fact 2. Alonso's Ferrari was slow. Fact 3. Alonso's Ferrari did not have a single faliure all season. Fact 4. The points lost by others' crashing into him cost him the WDC. And Fact 5. Vettel should hace been penalized on sunday (strangely evryone seems to ignore that fact ...)

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-11-28 06:56:29 and read 3429 times.

Quoting na (Reply 51):
And surely that never happens anywhere else...

For sure it has but Ferrari is very eager to let media know.

Quoting na (Reply 51):
Blame someone? Or find someone responsible and fire him? You´re so negative, man.

Get over yourself dude! Just look at the history when they have performed bad.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-11-28 06:58:06 and read 3427 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 47):
Senna lost his seat with Williams. Will you call him a "has been" the same you did with KK?

Would they replace Senna if he delivered? Well, there's your answer.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-28 07:01:14 and read 3428 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 52):
But you can't speculate on facts.

Except you seem to be quite free with the term "fact".

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 52):
Fact 1. Vettel had a bad start, which caused him to find himslef in the middle of the pack. He put himself at risk (and was lucky as hell to drive out of there!)

Vettel didn't cause the incident, so he "put himself at risk" just as much as Alonso did when he decided to drive where he did when Grosjean went and had his bumper car moment. So, quite a bit of that sentence isn't "fact", but "opinion".

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 52):
Fact 2. Alonso's Ferrari was slow.

Diddums. Better luck next year on that.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 52):
Fact 3. Alonso's Ferrari did not have a single faliure all season.

At least Ferrari got something right in 2012 then.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 52):
Fact 4. The points lost by others' crashing into him cost him the WDC.

Nope, he lost the WDC because he didn't score enough points. He lost a maximum of 50 points through those two race retirements - he'd already lost more than that by the end of the fourth race through poor positions.

During the season, Alonso lost 87 points through non-podium finishes.

Vettel lost 128 points through non-podium finishes.

Vettel gained his points by more race wins - 5 to 3, 125 points to 75.

Those are the *facts* - pure hard *facts*. The numbers don't lie.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 52):
Fact 5. Vettel should hace been penalized on sunday (strangely evryone seems to ignore that fact ...)

Again, opinion because there was inconsistency with the lights - and the FIA have already ruled on it.

[Edited 2012-11-28 07:02:31]

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-11-28 08:06:40 and read 3399 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 55):
Vettel didn't cause the incident, so he "put himself at risk" just as much as Alonso did when he decided to drive where he did when Grosjean went and had his bumper car moment. So, quite a bit of that sentence isn't "fact", but "opinion".

Had Vettel kept his position, not lose it, he would have not been there. He had a crap start and it could have cost him the WDC. Fact.

Quoting moo (Reply 55):
Nope, he lost the WDC because he didn't score enough points. He lost a maximum of 50 points through those two race retirements - he'd already lost more than that by the end of the fourth race through poor positions.

Ok, do the math. Lost a max. of 50 points, and just losy the WDC by 3. Thanks for helping me make my point clear ...
Again, fact.

Quoting moo (Reply 55):
Again, opinion because there was inconsistency with the lights - and the FIA have already ruled on it.

Yeah right, inconsistency ... again, had this been the other way round, the forum would be literally on fire.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-28 08:29:50 and read 3383 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 56):
Had Vettel kept his position, not lose it, he would have not been there. He had a crap start and it could have cost him the WDC. Fact.

That's a better comment and more honest.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 56):
Ok, do the math. Lost a max. of 50 points, and just losy the WDC by 3. Thanks for helping me make my point clear ...

... while you seem to be totally ignoring mine  

Alonso lost more points through his "slow car" than the "lost races", and yet its the "lost races" that get the blame (and conveniently, other drivers and not Ferrari or Alonso...).   

Oh, and you can punctuate your comments with "fact" all you like, its trivial to ignore it because it doesn't add any weight to your posts.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-28 08:57:58 and read 3374 times.

Quoting sudden (Reply 53):
Quoting na (Reply 51):
Blame someone? Or find someone responsible and fire him? You´re so negative, man.

Get over yourself dude! Just look at the history when they have performed bad.


You try to say its a bad thing to fire someone after mistakes have been made. But Ferrari did did what others also did and do if performance is bad and I see no real problem here. Maybe they make a bit more drama out of it than is the case elsewhere but the result is the same. Of cause its right to fire responsible people when they didnt perform as expected. F1 isnt a church organisation.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-11-28 09:16:51 and read 3365 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 57):
Alonso lost more points through his "slow car" than the "lost races", and yet its the "lost races" that get the blame (and conveniently, other drivers and not Ferrari or Alonso...).

Alonso had is slow car get the max amount of points possible in every race. In fact, he did get points in every race, except for the two races where he was forced out by other cars, not by a mistake of the team or of himself. Those two races, had he recieved a couple of points, would hae given him the wdc. How is that not a fact?

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-28 09:40:49 and read 3352 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 59):
How is that not a fact?

Simply because it's not a fact - you make the very simplistic assumption that nothing else in the season would have changed if Alonso won some points in those races.

Both you and Ferrari seem to be fixated on those two races, when the basic fact is that Alonso lost more points elsewhere as a result of having a poor car.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: Charles79
Posted 2012-11-28 10:09:58 and read 3350 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 44):
no, Vettel found himself in that position because he had a crappy start in the first place.

Please read the excellent summary posted by user racko in reply #9...Vettel did not have a team mate willing to play the wingman role, rather he has a team mate who shoved his car at Vettel's, forcing him to take some of the evasive actions that you label as a "crappy start". Massa, on the other hand, played the wingman role perfectly (sometimes unwillingly as it was the case in the US GP).

Vettel did try to drive a cautious race given the height of the stakes involved and the changing weather conditions, but to claim that he drove "crappy" is a bit much in my opinion.

Quoting moo (Reply 42):
If buts and maybes - the title belongs to the winner, not the perhaps...

Precisely! Saying that Vettel won the WDC is not, by itself, an implication that Alonso did not deserve the title (or Hamilton or Button or Raikkonen). All it states is that Vettel was good enough to collect more points than the competition over the course of 20 sessions.

We can all agree in that we have our favourites and that we can have opinions regarding which driver is better than the other but at the end of the day we cannot simply dismiss three consecutive world championships as a statistical anomaly. Both the team and the driver have to be really good to deliver those results.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-28 10:18:30 and read 3346 times.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 61):
Massa, on the other hand, played the wingman role perfectly

Not as perfectly as Nelson Piquet Jnr, let's not forget   Who benefitted from that little crash...?

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-11-28 10:49:43 and read 3337 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 60):
Both you and Ferrari seem to be fixated on those two races, when the basic fact is that Alonso lost more points elsewhere as a result of having a poor car.

Maybe because they are the only two races where Alonso did not get any points. Look, the car was poor depending on how you see it. It was not fast, implying it was indeed poor. But it never once failed, so it wasn't poor at all.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 61):
Massa, on the other hand, played the wingman role perfectly (

He did in Brazil, absolutely. In fact, I was surprised at how well he managed to be the wingman. It seemed that if he couls have run his own race, he could have even fought for p1. The other surprise was how well he handled the rain. If he can keep this level, Ferrari have somehting to look forward to for next season besides Alonso

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: Rockson
Posted 2012-11-28 11:06:45 and read 3334 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 39):
And by the way, had this been the other way around, this thread would literally be on fire .... but Vettel should have recieved a penalty. Now .. should Ferrari claim this or not?
http://www.marca.com/2012/11/27/moto....html


I'm on an iPad right now, so I can't link directly to the video, but scroll down to view a slow motion video of the situation.

http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5357&start=120

Do you see the marshall waving a green flag just before he overtakes Vergne? Can we even call that an overtaking maneuver by the way? Looks like Vergne simply let him by.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-28 11:20:49 and read 3323 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 63):
Maybe because they are the only two races where Alonso did not get any points.

Hence my earlier points - Alonso missed out on more points due to his early lack of speed than he did by missing two races. I can't believe how many times I have repeated that now.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 63):
It was not fast, implying it was indeed poor. But it never once failed, so it wasn't poor at all.

The car can be rock solid in reliability, but that doesn't mean it's a good car if its losing points as the aim of the game is to gain points...

Consistency is a bonus in F1, but speed is a core requirement. Ferrari didnt have the element of speed until they had lost 87 potential points. Points they could have done with later on in the season...

To use your line of argument, all Alonso needed was to gain one position each in two of those early races for him to gain the 4 points he needed for the WDC. Considering some of those cars that finished before him in those races were Force India, Williams and Mercedes cars...

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-11-28 11:24:27 and read 3323 times.

Quoting Rockson (Reply 64):
Do you see the marshall waving a green flag just before he overtakes Vergne? Can we even call that an overtaking maneuver by the way? Looks like Vergne simply let him by.

Well, let him by or not, it was an overtaking maneuver. However that green flag does stir things up a bit. Seems like a huge screw up by the stewards. The whole season could have been jeopardized by hat one guy with the green flag.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: scbriml
Posted 2012-11-28 14:38:11 and read 3295 times.

Look at the in-car video from the BBC's website. It appears to clearly show Vettel passing under flashing yellow lights and completing the manoeuvre before the first flashing green light.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20531638

Quote:
Ferrari want to establish whether there is enough evidence to lodge a protest that, if successful, could overturn the result of the world championship.
...
Alonso is believed to be pushing Ferrari to make an official protest to the FIA.

So much for claims that Alonso wouldn't want to win the Championship under such circumstances.   

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-28 15:24:25 and read 3286 times.

Far too late for anything to be done, the race results are no longer provisional - the stewards didn't act on it during the race, no one appealed after the race so it's a dead matter.

If Ferrari pushed, I bet they would get told "fine, we will give Vettel a reprimand" and leave it at that - pretty sure the FIA wouldn't want such a petty end to a season.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: scbriml
Posted 2012-11-28 22:31:42 and read 3251 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 68):
Far too late for anything to be done, the race results are no longer provisional - the stewards didn't act on it during the race, no one appealed after the race so it's a dead matter.

You appear to be wrong there. Did you read the BBC article?

Quote:
Article 179b of the international sporting code says: "If, in events forming part of an FIA championship, a new element is discovered, whether or not the stewards of the meeting have already given a ruling, these stewards of the meeting or, failing this, those designated by the FIA must meet… summoning the party or parties concerned to hear any relevant explanations and to judge in the light of the facts and elements brought before them."
It adds: "The period during which an appeal in review may be brought expires on 30 November of the year during which the decision that is liable to review has been handed down, if that decision is likely to have an effect on the result of a championship."

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-11-28 22:49:52 and read 3249 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 69):
You appear to be wrong there. Did you read the BBC article?

And the soap continues.  

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-29 00:09:09 and read 3233 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 69):
You appear to be wrong there. Did you read the BBC article?

I did, and that wasn't what I was talking about - the race is now 4 days old, celebrations have happened, fans have moved on, the season is over in everyone's minds and Vettel won. This is too late to be anything other than a contemptible move - and it shows that both Ferrari and Alonso are willing to win by whatever means and don't really care how people see them as a result.

If Vettels win is overturned, this season won't be remembered for Alonso winning the WDC, but the scandal at the end - Alonso might be the title holder in name, but it won't be honoured by many fans purely for the way it happened.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-11-29 00:37:33 and read 3230 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 71):
this season won't be remembered for Alonso winning the WDC, but the scandal at the end


F1 in a nutshell then.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: Rockson
Posted 2012-11-29 01:21:11 and read 3219 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 67):
Look at the in-car video from the BBC's website. It appears to clearly show Vettel passing under flashing yellow lights and completing the manoeuvre before the first flashing green light.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula...31638

Marshal waving a green flag before he passes Vergne:

http://s7.directupload.net/images/121128/xq7wq2yp.gif

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: flipdewaf
Posted 2012-11-29 02:46:50 and read 3190 times.

Quoting Rockson (Reply 73):
Marshal waving a green flag before he passes Vergne:

It is known that there was a green flag waved from this position on the previous lap before the incident, there is no lap counter in your video we are non the wiser.

Fred

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-11-29 03:08:53 and read 3182 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 30):
I was already hanging out at Le Mans while you wasn't even born.

What's Le Mans got to do with F1, apart from it being a motor race it's utterly different.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-11-29 03:29:40 and read 3171 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 75):
What's Le Mans got to do with F1, apart from it being a motor race it's utterly different.

Don't worry, she is trying to have a go at me. The only thing she manage to do is to make herself look even more uneducated on the subject.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: racko
Posted 2012-11-29 03:38:28 and read 3179 times.

God Ferrari and its Fans are pathetic. Trying to manufacture controversy where there is none.

"Green flag? Who cares? He must have done something wrong, how could Saint Alonso otherwise have lost!"

Already looking forward to next year, if the current trend continues Massa will be faster than Alonso, and we have all seen at McLaren how well Alonso deals with being out-driven by a team mate.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: Rockson
Posted 2012-11-29 03:38:45 and read 3180 times.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 74):
It is known that there was a green flag waved from this position on the previous lap before the incident, there is no lap counter in your video we are non the wiser
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-29 03:39:02 and read 3181 times.

Stranger and stranger.

Ferrari are seeking "clarification" of the legitimacy of the pass from the FIA, but it is being stressed that that is not the same as an appeal - although Vettel could still be penalised...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20541589

With evidence of mounting confusion (in car lights apparently also contradicting), and in light of the pass being one of the safest you could get (he was essentially let through), I doubt anythings going to be done.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2012-11-29 03:41:39 and read 3177 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 75):
What's Le Mans got to do with F1, apart from it being a motor race it's utterly different.

This was the first year I ever got to a race. I was a 7 year old. It was very impressive. I'd take that car any day.

1958 Olivier Gendebien Phil Hill Scuderia Ferrari Ferrari 250 TR58 14 305 4 101,926 km 170,914 km/h

Back in the 60's and 70's you would find many of the same players at Le Mans that you would find in F1. The cars at the time were far superior as what they have now at Le Mans - especially the Ferraris.

1965 Jochen Rindt Masten Gregory
North American Racing Team (NART) Ferrari 250 LM 21 348 4 677,11 km 194,880 km/h

1969 Jacky Ickx Jackie Oliver
John Wyer Automotive Engineering Ford GT40 Mk. I 6 372 4 997,88 km 208,250 km/h

1972 Henri Pescarolo Graham Hill
Équipe Matra-Simca Shell Matra Simca MS670 15 344 4 691,343 km 195,472 km/h

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Heures_du_Mans

  

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: scbriml
Posted 2012-11-29 04:51:54 and read 3139 times.

Quoting Rockson (Reply 73):
Marshal waving a green flag before he passes Vergne:

Is that even the same lap? Also, what's the in-picture showing? That's looks like the first lap when Vettel had his accident.   

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-29 04:52:58 and read 3139 times.

Autosport have dug up an interesting story from 2007 concerning a comment from Alonso  
Quote:

Fernando Alonso believes it would be bad for Formula One if Lewis Hamilton was handed the world championship title via post-race disqualifications.

...

Speaking after news of the investigation into the BMWs and Williams broke, Alonso said Formula One's reputation would be damaged if Raikkonen lost the title because Hamilton was retrospectively promoted to fourth.

"It would be a joke, and we've had too many already," he told Spanish radio station Cadena Ser. "If something like that happened, it would end up burying the sport."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63581?source=mostpopular

Incidentally, I didn't approve of McLarens appeal that year either and was glad both that the appeal was denied and Hamilton won the WDC in 2008.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: stealthz
Posted 2012-11-29 05:08:24 and read 3128 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 41):
Just with Grosjean's stunt the title would have gone to Alonso.

After careful analysis of the season the fact that the 2012 WDC 1st loser.. er 2nd place title goes to Alonso is indeed the fault of Romain Grosjean!

If Grosjean had accepted his place in the heirachy of F1 he would have had the good manners to retire from 6th pl in China and 3rd pl in Bahrain thus elevating Alonso to 7th & 6th respectively therefore gaining the 4 points needed to win the WDC.
Sadly for the Tifosi and the FA fans this didn't happen and F1's serial cheat and whiner finished the championship 2nd.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-11-29 05:33:28 and read 3108 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 80):
Back in the 60's and 70's you would find many of the same players at Le Mans that you would find in F1. The cars at the time were far superior as what they have now at Le Mans - especially the Ferraris.

Also wonder what you mean by the cars at the time were far superior, a modern day Le Mans prototype like the Audi R15 would out run, out corner, use less fuel and complete siginificantly more laps than a car from back in the 60's, and that's on the modern track which is longer and slower than back in the 60's and 70's.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: racko
Posted 2012-11-29 06:03:17 and read 3095 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 81):

Is that even the same lap? Also, what's the in-picture showing? That's looks like the first lap when Vettel had his accident.   

How the hell would they be able to show replays of the first lap on the world feed (bottom right) if this were the first lap?

I guess we can add "time travel" to the list of evil wrongdoings of evil Vettel.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-11-29 06:19:15 and read 3090 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 65):
Consistency is a bonus in F1, but speed is a core requirement. Ferrari didnt have the element of speed until they had lost 87 potential points. Points they could have done with later on in the season...

It's useless to argue woth you. If a car/driver are consistent and are able to score points in every single race, speed becomes secondary. The fastest car is not necessarily the best car. You can say whatever suits your theory, but the fact is that the only race where he didn't score points was when he was crashed into. Again, do the math.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 67):
So much for claims that Alonso wouldn't want to win the Championship under such circumstances.

I'm sure he doesn't, but if you were Alonso, wouldn't you be a bit pissed too?

Quoting moo (Reply 71):
If Vettels win is overturned, this season won't be remembered for Alonso winning the WDC, but the scandal at the end - Alonso might be the title holder in name, but it won't be honoured by many fans purely for the way it happened.

Ideally, IMO, if Vettel does get a penalty, I would prefer the title to remain void for this season. It's not nice to win it this was (for Alonso), but it's also not fair to have Vettel win if it was won in a dodgy way.

Quoting racko (Reply 77):
God Ferrari and its Fans are pathetic. Trying to manufacture controversy where there is none.

"Green flag? Who cares? He must have done something wrong, how could Saint Alonso otherwise have lost!"

Well ... there is controversy. Something definitely is not right. Either Vettel overtook under yellow flag condition or the steward who waved the green flag was wrong (assuming that feed is from that lap). That's controversial. And the only thing that's questioning Ferrari's request is that this happened on the last race. had this been at the beginiing of the season, and everyone would agree that Ferrari should investigate.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-11-29 06:47:05 and read 3070 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 86):
If a car/driver are consistent and are able to score points in every single race, speed becomes secondary.

Thats a very naive view - consistency is only worth so much, as a consistent 5th, 6th, 7th place isn't going to get you much when a fast, inconsistent car gets five or six race wins in the same season.

With the points stacks in F1 currently, its very very easy for a fast car to gain a huge advantage over a consistent car, even with several race retirements.

The key to F1 is to have both - consistency and speed, hand in hand.


Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 86):
but the fact is that the only race where he didn't score points was when he was crashed into.

Crashes are external events - you can't plan for them, you can't mitigate them, you can't prevent them. What you can plan for, mitigate and prevent is poor car performance.

Race retirements are a fact of F1.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 86):
Again, do the math.

Done time and time again. If Alonso had had a slightly quicker car at the start of the season, he could have gained the points he needed just as much as if he had completed the two races he retired from. However, you seem to be fixated on those two races and ignore the fact that if the team had delivered at the start of the season, by your argument, he could have taken the WDC.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-11-29 06:48:05 and read 3070 times.

Ok guys,

Time to stop beating this dead horse,
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: CXB77L
Posted 2012-11-29 06:49:18 and read 3071 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 86):
Something definitely is not right. Either Vettel overtook under yellow flag condition or the steward who waved the green flag was wrong (assuming that feed is from that lap).

What are you suggesting? If the marshal who waved the green flag was wrong, therefore Vettel must've overtaken in a yellow zone, right? So why should Vettel pay for the marshal's stuff-up?

The fact is that there was a green flag waved before Vettel overtook Vergne. There is no illegality with what he did.

Quoting racko (Reply 77):
God Ferrari and its Fans are pathetic. Trying to manufacture controversy where there is none.

  

The championship has been and gone. Alonso lost. Look forward to next year instead of looking back to find any and every loophole to steal the championship away from its rightful winner.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-11-29 07:09:03 and read 3055 times.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 89):
to find any and every loophole to steal the championship away from its rightful winner.

You just added more fuel to the fire with that one.  

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-11-29 07:59:26 and read 3034 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 87):
Thats a very naive view - consistency is only worth so much, as a consistent 5th, 6th, 7th place isn't going to get you much when a fast, inconsistent car gets five or six race wins in the same season.

and speed too. Who had the fastest car this year? (honest question). If it was the RBR, great, but Alonso we all agree was not the fastest ... nor the secodn fastest, and yet he's 2nd place and only 3 pionts behind. So .. whats's your point?

Quoting moo (Reply 87):
The key to F1 is to have both - consistency and speed, hand in hand.

Aha, there we agree 100%. However, no one had both.

Quoting moo (Reply 87):
Crashes are external events - you can't plan for them, you can't mitigate them, you can't prevent them

That does not change the fact that without the crash, Alonso would have won the WDC with a slow car.

Quoting moo (Reply 87):
However, you seem to be fixated on those two races and ignore the fact that if the team had delivered at the start of the season, by your argument, he could have taken the WDC.

It's not my argument, it's there, the numbers say so.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 89):
What are you suggesting? If the marshal who waved the green flag was wrong, therefore Vettel must've overtaken in a yellow zone, right? So why should Vettel pay for the marshal's stuff-up?

Nothing. If you care to read my posts, you'll see that what I am saying is that someone messed up either by having the yellow signs or either having the green flag. You can't have both.

I hope next year the same thing happens but with Alonso or Massa winning the title like that. You would alle be crying the infamous FIA all over. Yet here there is a clear controversy and Ferrari can't even ask about it!

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: racko
Posted 2012-11-29 12:47:16 and read 2982 times.

Nobody messed up. Nothing went wrong. There was a car parked in turn 3 (the corner leading into the straight). That's why there were yellow flags there. After the parked car, there was a green flag, marking the end of the yellow flag zone, and then Vettel overtook Vergne.

Nothing controversial about any of that. The green flag was correctly shown. Vettel overtook after the green flag. Nothing to see here.

1. Yellow flag
2. Parked car
3. Green flag
4. Vettel overtakes

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: racko
Posted 2012-11-29 12:54:08 and read 2981 times.

Ferrari to challenge Christmas

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-11-29 14:02:30 and read 2971 times.

There's obviously controversy if they have to come out and rule it officially, don't you think?

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: CXB77L
Posted 2012-11-29 18:15:46 and read 2946 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 91):
Who had the fastest car this year? (honest question).

That's not an easy question to answer. Red Bull struggled with pace at the beginning of the year. It was only towards the latter half of the year that Red Bull picked up its pace, but even then, McLaren were right there with them. By the last two races, it was McLaren that had the faster car.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: stealthz
Posted 2012-11-29 18:23:41 and read 2945 times.

Sorry Ezeiza, the only controversy is in the minds(and media releases) of FA & LdM.
The same FA trying to win a WDC via a post race protest once railed against and described as a joke the possibility of his team mate winning a title in a similar manner.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-11-29 19:24:43 and read 2941 times.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 95):
That's not an easy question to answer. Red Bull struggled with pace at the beginning of the year. It was only towards the latter half of the year that Red Bull picked up its pace, but even then, McLaren were right there with them. By the last two races, it was McLaren that had the faster car.

Thanks for that (it's more or less what I had in mind). So this brings back the question asked before; who had the best car? The fastest car wasn't even close by the end of the season.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 96):
Sorry Ezeiza, the only controversy is in the minds(and media releases) of FA & LdM

No, the controversy is there, and it's right for the team to ask about it. Nothing wrong happened? great! I'm pretty sure no one wants Ferrari to win this way in any case. But if there was something dodgy, it's not wrong to look at it even if it doesn't change the final outcome

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: racko
Posted 2012-11-29 23:57:55 and read 2916 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 94):
There's obviously controversy if they have to come out and rule it officially, don't you think?

If I produce a bogus video stating that Vettel was using an afterburner, then when asked about it by the press the FIA states "no he didn't", do we have an afterburner controversy?

The actual facts were never in doubt. You can have a "controversy" about everything.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: Bill142
Posted 2012-11-30 00:55:00 and read 2903 times.

FIA seems to disagree with Ferrari

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: CXB77L
Posted 2012-11-30 04:18:09 and read 2866 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 97):
So this brings back the question asked before; who had the best car?

What does it matter? Who had the best car this season isn't a something that can be answered in simple terms, although I guess one can argue that since Red Bull won the constructors' championship, they had the best car overall this season. However, it's not the driver with the best car that wins the title, it's the driver with the most points at the end of the season, so I think the question of who actually had the best car is quite irrelevant.

[Edited 2012-11-30 04:18:51]

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: scbriml
Posted 2012-11-30 04:51:11 and read 2850 times.

Quoting racko (Reply 85):
How the hell would they be able to show replays of the first lap on the world feed (bottom right) if this were the first lap?

I guess we can add "time travel" to the list of evil wrongdoings of evil Vettel.

I asked what the in-picture was showing because it looked like the first lap. There really was no need for your snarky reply.   

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: stealthz
Posted 2012-11-30 06:52:04 and read 2829 times.

Quoting sudden (Reply 88):
Time to stop beating this dead horse,

Seems even the Scuderia have...

Quoting Autosport:
Ferrari considers Vettel controversy over pass now closed
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104655?source=mostpopular
Must be pretty cut and dried, they have been known to flog deceased equines longer than this in the past!!

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-11-30 08:58:49 and read 2801 times.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 100):
What does it matter?

For the sake of debate, nothing more (we have 4 months to kill until next season  ). Because everyone, including Ferrari, have been saying that the car had a poor performance, but as mentioned earlier, I'm not so sure how to define poor.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 102):
Seems even the Scuderia have...

because they asked for an explanation (it was not a complaint), they got it, and that's it. Controversy over.
It's a good thing that footage of that one steward waving the flag was available ... it would have been a mess without it

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-30 09:34:06 and read 2794 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 103):
because they asked for an explanation (it was not a complaint), they got it, and that's it. Controversy over.

And we should be happy that way. Even as a Ferrari fan since the days I saw Niki Lauda win live at the track I would not have liked it if the Scuderia would have won the title in court a week or so past the end of the season. If it would have been a grave foul, ok, but that wasnt the case apparently. Book closed, lets hope the next season sees another Champ. Nothing as boring in sport as the same man winning in a row.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: stealthz
Posted 2012-12-01 05:08:18 and read 2738 times.

Quoting Autosport:
Domenicali: Ferrari never wanted to diminish Vettel's title triumph

As if!!

In a press statement that flip flops between altruisim and typical latin self interest!

He repeats himself several times...

Quote:
'Domenicali said on Friday it was his team's duty to ask for clarification, but made it clear it was not Ferrari's intention to cast a shadow over Vettel's third title.

"I believe it was the duty of our team to make sure that the championship finishes in the best way possible, for the interest of the championship and for the interest of the team and our drivers," said Domenicali during a press conference in Madrid.

"It was our duty to ask for a clarification to the FIA to understand what was the thing that was circulating on the web, without trying to diminish the victory of the driver who has won the title."

"So it was a very rational and very correct approach from Ferrari to make sure that we understood. We have received the clarification from the FIA, so we have taken notice of their position.

Still not sure what clarification was required it had been made very clear that flag signals supercede the light boards(they were only ever meant to be supplemental in any case), And had been made clear in driver/team meetings by Charlie Whiting that this was the case so why were Ferrari in the dark on this... maybe they feel above such meetings!!

Then turns all very altruistic

Quote:
The Italian insisted the team has now moved on and is already focusing on giving Fernando Alonso a car to win the title next season.

"As I said, there's nothing to say apart from the fact that we look ahead," he said. "We need to look ahead and these things will give us more spirit to look for the start of next season.

Then reverts to form...

Quote:
"I believe Fernando deserved this title and we need to make sure that Fernando will be able to win the title next year."

then this zinger..

Quote:
Domenicali also said his team will always do whatever is necessary to ensure everyone abides by the rules.

Did he really mean...'Domenicali also said his team will always do whatever is necessary to ensure everyone ELSE abides by the rules.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-12-03 03:36:05 and read 2587 times.

I think Bernie did good in calling it a joke.
Naturally Di Montezemolo had to hit back. I think this is funny to be honest.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104705

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: moo
Posted 2012-12-03 04:32:43 and read 2570 times.

Nice to see that Alonso knows how to show humility...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20579507

I can't believe the number of articles and interviews coming out of Ferrari post-season talking up Alonso's "achievements", as if it were some sort of impossibility that he overcame.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: CXB77L
Posted 2012-12-03 05:38:30 and read 2563 times.

HRT will no longer be part of the grid in 2013:

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2012/12/14143.html

 

I won't miss them. They've been nothing but mobile chicanes - Karthikeyan in particular.

Topic: RE: F1 2012: Brazilian Grand Prix
Username: sudden
Posted 2012-12-03 06:54:49 and read 2546 times.

Quoting moo (Reply 107):
I can't believe the number of articles and interviews coming out of Ferrari post-season talking up Alonso's "achievements", as if it were some sort of impossibility that he overcame.

In all fairness, Massa would never been able to do what Alonso did with that car this season. Alonso seem more at ease with everything then Ferrari does. And he also says that he drove the best season of his career. I think I can why.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 108):
I won't miss them.

Miss who?  


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