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Topic: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Geezer
Posted 2012-11-27 14:51:54 and read 10974 times.

Since everyone seems to enjoy discussing their "favorite" car, their "best ever" car, here's about 1,500 people who are discussing their "worst ever" car, all of which is in reply to an article written to "reveal" the "10 worst cars of all time" (or something like that)

I have spent the last two hours reading the replies, and it's a fantastic combination of, "funny", "sad", "ridiculous", (and a few more adjectives !) ( but worth every minute of the time spent !) In fact, I'm still only up to about 300 (or so), so I'm going back to laugh some more.

It points something else out too; namely that this isn't the only place where people don't always agree with each other.

http://www.thestreet.com/story/11381...ars-of-all-time.html#disqus_thread

The auto writers who conducted the so-called "survey" to "identify" the "10 worst cars of all time" contend that the over-all "worst ever" car is the Pontiac Aztec; needless to say, this has not set so well with many current and former Aztec owners.

It will be fun to hear what our resident car experts say about all of these peoples opinions. ( Hope you enjoy it as much as I have)

Charley

P.S. Now if I can just get the damned link to work...........

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Jetsgo
Posted 2012-11-27 15:29:53 and read 10937 times.

The Aztek was an eyesore, there's no doubt about that. But the worst car ever? Please. Pontiac died because it offered nothing substantially worthwhile that couldn't be gotten in another GM product, minus the G8 of course.

As for my vote... Pinto. The car that can't.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-27 16:06:55 and read 10921 times.

Let's see: (in no particular order)

Pontiac Aztek
Chrysler Sebring
Dodge Caliber
GM cars with the Olds diesel engine
Cadillac Cimarron
Cadillac Allante
Ford Edsel
Ford Mustang II
AMC Pacer
Chrysler TC
Pretty much anything ever made by British Leyland
Aston Martin Lagonda (cool looking, but flawed)
Renault LeCar
Yugo
A lot of Chinese made cars (those crash test videos are terrifying)

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-11-27 16:20:41 and read 10906 times.

Not an expert by any means, but my parents did get some of these cars.

They bought a Vega brand new in 1974. Since I was a youngster at the time I thought it was pretty cool, but even still its shortcomings were obvious to me. It was underpowered, and had an aluminum block that the owner's manual warned you that could overheat with as little as five minutes of idling. It also 'pinged' no matter what kind of gas we used. It was already rusting within 2 years, until its stay with us ended after a tree branch fell on its roof. My dad got the insurance money but still drove it with a plastic bag as the rear windshield for a few months till even he admitted defeat.

The parents also owned a mid-70s Pinto (which didn't make the list but should have) and my Dad bought a late 70's Mustang II, which did made the list.

If I was making the list, I'd limit it to cars that were mechanical failures and not include cars whose main flaw was how ugly they were.

My first boss at my first hourly job (after the paper route) owned a mid 70s AMC Pacer, which was cool as Wayne and Garth's Mirth Mobile, but was butt-ugly otherwise.

From what I'm told the Aztec is OK mechanically, but yeah, it's butt-ugly.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: GuitrThree
Posted 2012-11-27 16:38:36 and read 10886 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Let's see: (in no particular order)

Nice list, but where are the Pinto's, Vega's, and ALL of the GM X cars? Oh, and let's not forget, the newest members of the list, the Smart line up and the Fiat 500. Man, are those bad.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: srbmod
Posted 2012-11-27 16:51:04 and read 10875 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Yugo

There was a guy in my neighborhood whose first car was a Yugo. The funny thing was he had a stereo system in it that was worth more than the car was so he had a car alarm on it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Pretty much anything ever made by British Leyland

Very true. They designed some good vehicles, but that's where it ended. When it came time to build them, that's when it went all pear-shaped. I'll let Jeremy Clarkson sum it up with one single car:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGJty_Rdp1U

The entire episode is quite interesting and you see some similarities to the troubles in the US auto industry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc7CtwKVuZ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=gnL3msYD_9M

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Jetsgo
Posted 2012-11-27 16:54:31 and read 10868 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Chrysler Sebring
Dodge Caliber

Perfect examples of the "that'll do" mentality that existed in Detroit for so long.

I'd also like to throw in a vote for about half of Nissan's current lineup, especially the Cube and new "Pathfinder" (admittedly that's only opinion though).

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: lewis
Posted 2012-11-27 16:55:44 and read 10867 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
Smart line up and the Fiat 500

For the market and use they are made for they are both pretty good and reliable cars. Their styling is only considered weird in the US.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: okie
Posted 2012-11-27 16:57:23 and read 10867 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Yugo

The best way to make a Yugo go was to hook it to a tow truck.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
The parents also owned a mid-70s Pinto (which didn't make the list but should have

There were some conspiracy theorist that thought the Murrah Building bombing was actually caused by a Pinto backing out of a parking space hitting the side of a Chevrolet CK pick-up.

You have left the Chevrolet Vega out of the list so far, what a mess that was.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
GM cars with the Olds diesel engine

Rudolf Diesel is still laying in his grave laughing at that attempt to make a gasoline engine a diesel.
For all intents and purpose GM set the concept of a US built diesel automobile back 50 years or more.

Okie

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-27 17:52:45 and read 10840 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
Nice list, but where are the Pinto's, Vega's, and ALL of the GM X cars?

The Pinto was a bad car, but it's reputation is even worse than it actually was. As far as the Vega and X platform go, you could probably make a "worst car" case for most of the compact cars designed in the US from the 1970s and 1980s. Even into the 1990s there was a lot of crap.

The Chevy Aveo probably belongs on the list too.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
Oh, and let's not forget, the newest members of the list, the Smart line up and the Fiat 500.

They aren't really that bad, they just don't appeal to mainstream American tastes. The Smart is kind of overpriced too, although for the price of either I'd just as soon buy a used Mustang and a bunch of gasoline. I'd take a spin in a 500 Abarth though.

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 6):
Perfect examples of the "that'll do" mentality that existed in Detroit for so long.

I'm not convinced it isn't gone yet. After all, we do still have the Chrysler 200 and Cadillac XTS. Seriously, Cadillac came out with another interim model to replace their last interim model.

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 6):
I'd also like to throw in a vote for about half of Nissan's current lineup, especially the Cube and new "Pathfinder" (admittedly that's only opinion though).

It's like Nissan is trying too hard to be quirky and overtly Japanese. The little Japanese car is not awful for a model or two, but you cannot have an appealing lineup with that formula. Especially when Japanese cars in the US are largely bought by people who buy cars like they are appliances.

Quoting lewis (Reply 7):
Their styling is only considered weird in the US.

I doubt many people over here even realize that the Fiat 500 is a retro design, since the original was never sold here. That alone puts it at a disadvantage compared to the Mini and New Beetle, although those are both more upmarket cars.

Quoting okie (Reply 8):
For all intents and purpose GM set the concept of a US built diesel automobile back 50 years or more.

That's very true. My grandfather was a brakes engineer for many years and he went to his grave believing automotive ideas that had long since ceased to be true. He thought British cars were all unreliable and diesel engines were awful. One misstep and perception is hard to change.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2012-11-27 18:22:47 and read 10819 times.

An interesting list and pretty much spot on as to cars sold in the USA.

Another 'worst' car(s) the 1976-1981 Dodge Aspen/Plymouth Volare. I had a 1978 Dodge Aspen that was 1 year old when I got it and it was a total dog. Awful carburetors. Engine hoods that could pop open (happened to me at 50 MPH), weak front suspensions, all kinds little problems that nagged your wallet and patience. They also had fenders that rusted out in a few years prompting a recall.

Other 'worst' cars in term of bad design, bad engineering, rust/corrosion, ugly, bad workmanship:
Any and all Fiats sold in the USA until the 1980's.
Any and all Renault or designed models made in the USA (Alliance/Encore based on the 9, the 11, and others)
A number of early Japanese (pre early 1970's) and Korean models (Hyundai to the mid-1990's, KIA until about 2000) in the USA; The worst was the about 1967-68 Subaru 360, one of the only cars ever condemned by Consumer Reports, a car like the size of the BMW Isetta with a 360 cc engine, brakes that fell apart and way too small. Still all those brands got past their bad starts and are successful today.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: lewis
Posted 2012-11-27 18:48:26 and read 10796 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
I'd take a spin in a 500 Abarth though.

Have driven it when I was back in Europe. It is pretty impressive for a small car, a lot more than you would expect.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
I doubt many people over here even realize that the Fiat 500 is a retro design

True. I personally prefer it to the Mini as Fiat has done a very good job modernizing the design while keeping it as close as possible to the original lines.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-27 19:02:11 and read 10782 times.

Quoting lewis (Reply 11):
Have driven it when I was back in Europe. It is pretty impressive for a small car, a lot more than you would expect.

I'm sure it is, but I'm not sure I'd buy one. It's only about $1400 cheaper than a V6 Camaro, $3000 cheaper than a Scion FR-S, $1700 less than a Focus ST and $2000 cheaper than a GTI. All of those are more car than a 500, and that's before you consider used cars.

Quoting lewis (Reply 11):
I personally prefer it to the Mini as Fiat has done a very good job modernizing the design while keeping it as close as possible to the original lines.

The only style problem I have with the 500 is that the wheels are too small and cause it to resemble a golf cart. It needs bigger wheel wells and then fill those up to get a better, more muscular look. Just because it is a city car doesn't mean I want it to look like a city car.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: lewis
Posted 2012-11-27 19:13:24 and read 10774 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):

I'm sure it is, but I'm not sure I'd buy one. It's only about $1400 cheaper than a V6 Camaro, $3000 cheaper than a Scion FR-S, $1700 less than a Focus ST and $2000 cheaper than a GTI. All of those are more car than a 500, and that's before you consider used cars.

Cars like the 500 Abarth don't make much sense in the US. In Europe, a fast and bigger car with all the taxation that goes on big engines will easily cost almost double what the 500 does. Hot hatches and small "tuned" cars with smaller engines (below 2lt) are the fun cars that most Europeans can afford to buy and run with all the taxes and the fuel prices. I agree, in the US there is no reason to buy a car such as the Abarth, unless you really like the design or the small car/performance combo.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-27 19:19:32 and read 10769 times.

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
Hot hatches and small "tuned" cars with smaller engines (below 2lt) are the fun cars that most Europeans can afford to buy and run with all the taxes and the fuel prices.

Yeah, leave it to Euronannies to ruin the fun. The price of a Camaro in the UK is eye watering. It costs about $20,000 more than a similar US model.

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
I agree, in the US there is no reason to buy a car such as the Abarth, unless you really like the design or the small car/performance combo.

For my money I'd just look for a Subaru BRZ/Scion FR-S and tune the hell out of it. Or find a nice used Porsche or M3.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2012-11-27 19:21:53 and read 10768 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
The Chevy Aveo probably belongs on the list too.

Used to be a Daewoo that why - Kalas it was called (in Britain anyway).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
It's like Nissan is trying too hard to be quirky and overtly Japanese

I agree on the styling, the only one I can marginally accept is the X-Terra - and of course the gorgeous GT (not fussed on the 370Z). However, they are boringly reliable and Nissan's fortunes have turned around incredibly in the last few years under their new Brazilian CEO and you can not deny such success would not be possible unless the products were quality enough - this is not the 1970's anymore when the BL stuff sold.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Pretty much anything ever made by British Leyland

   The Allegro, Maxi, Princess, Ambassador, Marina, Ital, Maestro & Montego were all dire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UJfbunHVuc

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: bohica
Posted 2012-11-27 19:39:24 and read 10761 times.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 10):
Another 'worst' car(s) the 1976-1981 Dodge Aspen/Plymouth Volare.

Which was replaced by something even worse: The "K" cars. The Dodge Aries, Plymouth Reliant, Dodge 400 and Chrysler LeBaron. They were cheaply made with plastic interiors and body panels which did not align properly. Also the engines were very noisy and had a bad reputation for head gasket and timing belt failures. I used to work for a Chrysler/Plymouth dealership and I could tell you first hand these cars were pieces of junk.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-27 19:51:28 and read 10753 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 15):
Used to be a Daewoo that why

True, but some of GM's domestic efforts weren't much better.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 15):
and of course the gorgeous GT (not fussed on the 370Z).

The GTR is a bit too portly for me. In real life, it is not a small car at all and I'd frankly rather have a 911 or, even better, one of those new SRT Vipers. But that's just personal preference. The Z looked alright initially, despite being a bit bulbous but later iterations have become more muscular on the plus side, but the gains are outweighed by increasingly busy designs. The Nissan boomerang light thing just doesn't work for me.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 15):
However, they are boringly reliable and Nissan's fortunes have turned around incredibly in the last few years under their new Brazilian CEO and you can not deny such success would not be possible unless the products were quality enough

They are, but I don't see why Nissan feels the need to try and offset the dullness of their products with styling. It's okay for your conventional normal car to have conventional normal looks. For most customers that is exactly what they are looking for. You don't need your midsize family sedan to be edgy, it's just weird and disjointed.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 15):
Ambassador

I believe these are still being produced in India. At least they were as of a few years ago.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: seb146
Posted 2012-11-27 20:55:43 and read 10716 times.

Quoting Geezer (Thread starter):
the over-all "worst ever" car is the Pontiac Aztec

I have never owned an Aztek or even driven one, but I think they are cute. I don't understand the hatred of the Aztek. I am not fond of the HHR but I don't hate it like how people hate the Aztek. The new Fiat comes close, though...

Quoting srbmod (Reply 5):
Yugo
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Yugo
Quoting okie (Reply 8):
Yugo

I drove a Yugo once. Never again.

I have a book of the worst cars ever. One thing about the Yugos said something about "When civil war broke out in Serbia, the people had the good sense to burn down the Yugo factory first."

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
The Smart is kind of overpriced too

I have seen them here for $99 down and $99 a month, so.... no. They are not for road trips with the family. Which I love.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-11-27 21:29:39 and read 10694 times.

Quoting bohica (Reply 16):

But, a lot of people fell for their charms and bought them up like In and Out Burgers. They were a slight step up from the Mopar turkeys of the 70's. And lest we forget the God Awful Omni/Horizon Twins, Fugly and problem laden.
Don't forget most if not all US cars from 1972 through the mid to late 70's (pre-downsizing) were saddled with all the myriad of environmental pollution controls. Look under the hood of almost any US car from 1972 through 1975 and it looks like a spaghetti maze with all the controls. While (in the case of the big three large cars) remained bloated but the performance tanked and gas mileage went into the toilet.

I had a 1974 Mustang II Ghia Coupe. The inside looked like a mini continental interior but, even the V6 was underpowered and gas mileage for it's size was less than impressive. And then when they shoehorned the V8 under it's hood that presented problems. Sadly the Mustang II was based on the Pinto. This car had the alternator from hell...kept crapping out.
My dad swore off of Ford products the rest of his life because of the fun with this car. I wish I'd known how to fluidly drive a stick back then. The Pinto and Mustang II were really cars mated for manual transmissions. This was the height of the myriad of pollution controls and even the V6 with Automatic and A/C was a turtle off the block.

The Blue Oval wasn't the only carmaker to spin off "small cars" off their economy line. The General dressed up the Vega Chassis and spun off the not bad looking but mediocre at best Monza and the other divisions had their versions.

Also, the General took the ancient Nova platform and gussied them up with the Buick Apollo, Olds Omega, Pontiac Ventura and yes the Caddy Seville. However, I must give GM/Caddillac credit for really distinguishing the first generation rear driver Seville. I got to ride in them and drive them and for mid to late 70's American Autos they drove and felt even better than the hippo sized DeVilles. The only way you knew it's heritage was Nova was the same hood design. But 99% of Seville drivers didn't catch that one.

Also in mediocre to drek cars were the Ford Granada and Fairmont which were up marketed and spun off into such marques as the Lincoln Versailles. Not a bad looking car but the first few model years it looked too much like a 4 door Granada.

Some others:

In No order
Ford LTD II 1977-1979
(At least the T-Bird spun from them were distinct) At first I hated their design but, as I get older am liking their looks. However, if you went with the base Bird from that era it still felt, rode and drove like the lower end LTD II's. Sluggish lack of feel steering, space shuttle power brakes that hurled you forward and seats that were a torture chamber on wheels if you had to drive or ride for more than an hour or 2.

AMC Gremlin, AMC HOrnet, AMC Concord DL-Retro for all the wrong reasons (a turd to drive) Air Conditioning that was weak and wimpy like it was designed in 1962. AMC Pacer

1979-1993 Mustang, A Fairmont made into a pony car   
Pontiac Aztec
REnault Le Car
Renault, Fuego,Alliance
Breezeway Mercurys, Out of proportion wierd looking hippos, However, the 1958-1960 Continental Breezeway Convertibles
are quirky but I appreciate their design as I get older.

Most of the Mercury line from 1958 through 1960, the dark ages of auto styling.

The Plymouth, Dodge, DeSoto and Chrysler "Forward Look Cars" from 1957 thru 1959. Cool looking even by today's standards but, they were in such demand that build and quality took a nosedive for Mopar who never seemed to get their act together in regard to quality and finish. My dad had a Plymouth Suburban 1957 Forward Look wagon that whenever it rained and in Maryland we get a lot of rain was a pain in the ass to start. I was little but, I remember my dad having to spray silicon on the contacts to get the finned Manatee to start. These cars also had a lot of leaking and rust problems.

I'm glad the Corvair did not make the lists at least not here; Ralf Nadir unfairly made that car the center of his crusade. Actually, it was a pretty good car for most.

The unhappy marriage of Daimler with Chrysler: The Mercedes of that era were plagued with poor build, quality and even handeling. Uncharacteristic of MB. Many of the Benz of that ilk were Chrysler technology which was a step down for Mercedes.

Jaguars were nice looking but, in many cases were nightmares when it came to reliability.

Though not a car but, the Grummand Flxible transit busses of the early through late 70's had that uncanny characteristic to break down at the same time. And their air conditioning systems were plagued with problems.

Also the last transit bus GM made originally with fixed windows were known for their Air Conditioning to do an "Anna Nicole" on the hottest days. There were cases where drivers broke out the windshields to get some air!

And of course it was laughable that Detroit's answer to the Japanese fuel thrifty good quality cars were the Pinto, Vega, and Gremlin back in the 70's.   

Fiats back in the day became so bad they were known as Fix It Again Tony! And thus left the American market till
recently.

Design and looks wise such Nissan abortions as the Cube, RWD/AWD Pathfinder that looked like a 1950's Rambler wagon.

Suzuki: They were mediocre at best and gave up at least for now on the US market. No great loss.
Also Mitsubishi which used to be one of the prime Japanese imports have lost face here in the USA. For example each successive generation of the Eclipse has taken a nosedive in reliability.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-11-27 22:24:18 and read 10678 times.

Quoting Geezer (Thread starter):

"Worst" in terms of reliability or looks?
Of the cars I've owned, the most unreliable car was one of the best looking cars. I used to own a 1987 Chrysler Lebaron convertible. It was beautiful. Red with charcoal grey Corinthian leather seats, high-gloss simulated walnut grain wood applique, fully digital electronic instrument panel with verbal alert system. Black convertible top with glass rear window with defrost, concealed headlights and vertical chrome grille.
The problem was that the little 2.2 liter turbocharge 4-cylinder engine was under-powered for such a heavy car.
All of the fancy gadgets were very reliable. The problem was with the powertrain and other mechanical issues. Everything that could possibly go wrong went wrong with that car. I had to replace the heads, transmission (twice), water pump, alternator, fuel pump, radiator, spindle, main axle, and the entire front frame (busted for turning a corner too fast).

Other than that, it was a good looking car and I was able to pull a lot of babes with that car......

http://www.theonion.com/articles/aft...y-figured-out-how-to-impres,11226/

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Cargolex
Posted 2012-11-27 22:52:01 and read 10658 times.

These lists are sort of silly, and though they often include some famous bombs, they rarely actually touch on the worst cars ever made, nor does any car made in America in the last 20 years really come close to that, certainly not the Pontiac Aztek. Most of these "worst cars" lists are made by a beat writer being paid very little who really doesn't know much about the subject. It's easy to poke at a car like the Aztek or the Cimmaron, because they honestly weren't very good, or were sort of silly, but worst cars ever? No.

You wanna hear about some bad cars? Well gather 'round, it's story time.

I'm not going to rank these, just describe some of the issues. It's fair to say that the American market is very demanding, and some of the world's worst cars were never sold here, nor would they have even gotten close.

Lancia Gamma. This 1970s flagship was meant to replace the Flaminia and the Flavia, and top Lancia's range in the new era of Fiat ownership. Lancia had built very high quality cars until 1969, but often at a loss, since they had no economy of scale and were turning out cars in a sort of semi-artisan way that they always had. The Gamma and Beta were supposed to bring Fiat's economies of scale to bear on Lancia's great designs and good execution. In reality, what happened was Fiat's dulling influence and a series of calamities, the most serious of which had to do with the Gamma's engine.

The Gamma was designed to be a luxury car, but Fiat already had a BMW Bavaria-style car with a powerful V6, the Fiat 130, and a big family car with a four, the 132. So the gamma was designed with a really big flat four, just like the Flavia had been, but the Flavia's engine was smaller (and alot better...). Similarly, an aborted merger with Citroen had seen the sedan get a fastback, like the Citroen CX would later have. The gamma's flat four handicapped it in the market from day one - as did the styling. It simply wasn't taken seriously against the BMW, Opel, Mercedes, and even Citroen and Rover competition. But worse was yet to come.

The Gamma's cambelt also drove the power steering pump, and if the steering was turned to full lock when the car was cold, the belt could jump, resulting in a nasty collision of valves and pistons that would put your brand new luxury ride in the shop for weeks, with a substantial bill. Eventually, this was fixed, but not before word got out. Even the addition of a very pretty Pininfarina Coupe and the rust and quality failings of the smaller Beta could not save the Gamma from being remembered as Lancia's most dyfunctional product.

Standard Gazel. What's a Standard Gazel? Our Indian friends know. It was a license-built copy of the Triumph Herald made in India from the 1960s until 1978. It had all the flaws of the Herald - though it did have the crazy camber of the real wheels tamed by using a different rear suspention, shakes and rattles galore, virtually no rust resistance, and to boot it was heavier and slower. At some point, the Gazel was turned into a four-door car and even a four-door wagon - the Triumph Herald was only a two-door, resulting in a very, very, very cramped little car with tiny doors. In 1980, India's car market was dominated by long obsolete European designs produced locally like the Premier Padmini (1964 Fiat 1100) and Hindustan Ambassador (1956 Morris Oxford). This car could not even compete very well in that market.

Zaporozhets 968. First off, totally unrelated to the Porsche 968.   The little Zapo was a Russian microcar originally in the mold of the Fiat 600, but this later model was inspired by the Chevrolet Corvair, at least in terms of how it looked. It was slow, unreliable, and deadly in a high speed crash, although you probably would have to be hit by something else moving at high speed because these little cars needed a tailwind to hit 55 mph. Later models had some safety improvements, but this very basic car was not even close to as good as the west's version of a very basic car, the Citroen 2CV.

Moskvitch/Izh 412. Another Russian superstar, this 1960s design was aging even when it was new, and it wasn't very good then. Poor to drive, poorly made, devoid of any creature comforts or features you might want, it's sole merits were that it was fairly hardy in winter and the waiting list wasn't that long. Today best remembered for the antics of U.K. racer Tony Lanfranchi, who raced one in a series who's parameters were set by price. It was one of the cheapest cars you could buy in the U.K. (yes, they did export them), and for its price it was reasonably powerful (when pitched against cars like the Fiat 127 and Honda Civic).

Vanden Plas Allegro. A plush version of British Leyland's Austin Allegro, this pricey turd replaced the rather nice Vanden Plas 1300, even though all pretension of these being real luxury cars was basically just a visit to the land of make believe. Poor dynamics, poor quality, odd styling, and terminal rust brought many an Allegro to a not-entirely-undeserved early grave.

The Copper Chevy. It's a little unfair to put this car in this company, because it came out in 1922, and back then automobiles were still developing. Knight Sleeve-valve engined cars would be available for another 18 years back then, and that's a technology that is today all but forgotten. The Copper Chevy didn't have a Knight engine, rather it had an air-cooled engine with some copper internal components, which were supposed to dissipate heat. The engine was designed by Charles Kettering, who also invented the electric self starter - not exactly a lightweight. But sadly, it didn't work, and very early on the cars started cooking their engines. Chevrolet recalled every single one it could find, and only two complete cars survive today. The experiment was a disaster for Chevrolet, though they recovered quickly in the boom times of the 1920s.

As I said, it's a little unfair to lump this car in with really bad modern cars, because technologies were still developing then, and metallurgy wasn't what it is today. In 1923, front-wheel brakes were considered radical.

Alfa-Romeo Arna. Nowadays, when the Dodge Dart shares components with the Alfa-Romeo Giulietta, things are pretty good with merged DNA like this. In 1983, however somebody had the brilliant idea of putting Alfa-Romeo mechanical pieces into the shell of a Nissan Cherry. The resulting car was pretty much the worst of all possible worlds - dull, boring, rusty, and unreliable. The Arna was replaced by the 33, which still had all kinds of quality problems, but at least it was all Alfa.

Renault 14. Of all these cars, this is the one I like the most, and it feels bad to bash it, but it was not a good car. It's a very strange machine, aimed at the VW Golf and cars like it, but oddly avant garde in a very 1970s kind of way. An early ad campaign likened its shape to that of a Pear, and as you can guess, things started to go Pear-shaped pretty quickly for this little car. It quickly gained a reputation for being rusty, unreliable, and sometimes hard to start and possessing an electrical system possessed by demons. Nor was it by any means a fast car or the most efficient car around. It was just very unusual, and even disco-era French car buyers had limits.

The Monza cars. What if you could have a small car like a Vega, but with real power? How cool would that be? what if it looked exotic? In the late 1970s, GM felt that meant a Vega with a V8 engine, or at least a big V6, and styling that resembles the Ferrari 365 GTC/4. GM recycled most of the Vega running gear into four quite attractive cars - the Chevy Monza, Pontiac Sunbird, Oldsmobile Starfire, and Buick Skyhawk. The H-body cars were quite possibly the worst cars GM ever made - and because they looked so great, there were tons of them piling up in scrapyards in the 1980s as they gradually fell apart. The Vega chassis wasn't designed for the 305 V8, so cars like the Monza Spyder, which promised alot of performance with all that style, usually had vibration problems and all sorts of driveline issues. The manual transmission cars had tons of problems, and all of these cars were plagued by spectacularly poor quality. Interestingly enough, the plants where these cars were made were later reformed into some of GM's best plants, but that was far in the future back then. Today, these cars are mainly preserved by drag racers - who find the small platform very useful. But as regular transportation, they were very bad indeed.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):

I believe these are still being produced in India. At least they were as of a few years ago.

He's not referring to the Hindustan Ambassador, but to the Austin Ambassador, part of the "Princess" line of British Leyland mid-sized (1800/2200) cars, introduced in 1975 (though the Ambassador was part of the final revision of this line, introduced in 1982).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):

I doubt many people over here even realize that the Fiat 500 is a retro design, since the original was never sold here.

Actually it was, from 1957 to 1962. And it's larger sibling, the 600, was sold here from 1955 to 1967.

[Edited 2012-11-27 23:27:27]

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-11-27 23:08:57 and read 10654 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Pretty much anything ever made by British Leyland

Not true, Jaguar XJ-6 was a fine car, as were the Triumph 2500, Dolomite Sprint, Stag (once the engine malidies were sorted), Mini, Rover SD1, and the original Range Rover.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
the Fiat 500. Man, are those bad

The 500 is an excellent car and a smash hit for Fiat, they can't build them fast enough

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Aston Martin Lagonda (cool looking, but flawed)

The only real problem with them was the way to advanced for a small British car company electgrics, once they sorted them the car was fine, now they are worth a bit of dosh and very hard to find.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 19):
REnault Le Car

Yup it was a turd, but Renault managed to sell 5.5 million of them

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
It needs bigger wheel wells and then fill those up to get a better, more muscular look.

Then you need to buy the Abarth version, problem solved.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-27 23:21:11 and read 10641 times.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 18):
I have a book of the worst cars ever. One thing about the Yugos said something about "When civil war broke out in Serbia, the people had the good sense to burn down the Yugo factory first."

Actually I'm pretty sure we bombed it during the 1990s.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 18):
I have seen them here for $99 down and $99 a month, so.... no.

That's a lot for what it is. You'd be better off buying a slightly used normal compact for that price.

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 21):
He's not referring to the Hindustan Ambassador, but to the Austin Ambassador, part of the "Princess" line of British Leyland mid-sized (1800/2200) cars

You're right. Hindustan knocked off a different bad British car to make the Ambassador. The Morris model was eventually replaced by the Morris Marina. Suffice to say, the Indians got the better end of that deal.

And while on the subject of bad British cars that were made into worse models elsewhere long after they should have been scrapped, I think I should nominate the Paykan. When the world was screaming for more Hillman Hunters, the Iranians stepped up to the plate.

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 21):
Actually it was, from 1957 to 1962. And it's larger sibling, the 600, was sold here from 1955 to 1967.

I never knew that. Shows how much market penetration they managed.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
Not true, Jaguar XJ-6 was a fine car, as were the Triumph 2500, Dolomite Sprint, Stag (once the engine malidies were sorted), Mini, Rover SD1, and the original Range Rover.

There were some winners in there, but BL's batting average is overall rather poor. Granted, American car companies weren't doing much better at the time. The SD1 wasn't so hot though, especially the uglier, 135 horse V8 American version. And it's hard to say how much credit BL should get for the Mini.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
The only real problem with them was the way to advanced for a small British car company electgrics, once they sorted them the car was fine, now they are worth a bit of dosh and very hard to find.

I saw a story a few days ago about one that was trashed by Sandy. My first thought, and about 3/4 of the comments, was that now they can finally do the thing the right way.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
Then you need to buy the Abarth version, problem solved.

Even on the Abarth the wheels are proportionately too small. The whole wheel and tire package needs to be larger, or alternatively, chop the top to make the proportions look better to me. Granted, it's not really Fiat's fault. Most city cars do have that too-tall, golf cart like look to them.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-11-27 23:25:40 and read 10637 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
Yup it was a turd, but Renault managed to sell 5.5 million of them

Sounds like The Backstreet Boys.  

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Cargolex
Posted 2012-11-27 23:40:02 and read 10722 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):

You're right. Hindustan knocked off a different bad British car to make the Ambassador. The Morris model was eventually replaced by the Morris Marina. Suffice to say, the Indians got the better end of that deal.

In 1956, the Morris Oxford was actually a fairly decent, if very conventionally British, car. It was not exactly in it's first flush of youth, but it wasn't a "bad" car. In 1980s India it was hopelessly outmoded. The Oxford that became the Ambassador, however, was phased out of production in 1960, more than a decade before the Marina debuted.

In the 1980s, Hindustan added an upmarket companion to the Ambassador with the Contessa - itself a license built version of the discontinued 1972-1978 Vauxhall FE Victor. That car was actually pretty good when new - but the Contessa was in production until 2002, long after it had been passed over by more modern alternatives. It was also a big and pricey car for most people in India. It is, however, well liked by some there because of it's 1970s looks, which appear a little like Holden HQ (in fact a kind of distant relative) or 1970s American cars.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):

I saw a story a few days ago about one that was trashed by Sandy. My first thought, and about 3/4 of the comments, was that now they can finally do the thing the right way.

As Rob said, it wasn't necessarily that it was a bad car, it's just that a tiny outfit like Aston couldn't make such a high-tech car work reliably back in 1976. Much of the computer related stuff, which would be complex even by 1990s standards, had to be replaced with conventional items, which added to it's already prodigious weight (it makes a Fleetwood Brougham look svelte) and delayed the car. What was cutting edge in 1976 was oddly dated by 1985, although to be honest the car's radical style held up pretty well in the 1980s, like the Lotus Esprit. Even after some of the early bugs were worked out, there were still electrical issues every now and then. A story I've been told by somebody who was present includes a test drive with an older British couple where the car, with it's voice warning system, began speaking loudly in Arabic instead of English and would not shut off. The cars were programmed with several international languages because the majority of Lagonda buyers were in the middle east, particularly Bahrain, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia.

[Edited 2012-11-27 23:46:21]

[Edited 2012-11-27 23:48:23]

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-11-28 00:25:08 and read 10713 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Cadillac Cimarron
Cadillac Allante
Ford Edsel
Ford Mustang II
AMC Pacer

I disagree with these entries. Those are all good cars.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
I'm not convinced it isn't gone yet. After all, we do still have the Chrysler 200 and Cadillac XTS. Seriously, Cadillac came out with another interim model to replace their last interim model.

Agreed. What is up with Lincoln with their new line of alphabet soup cars? The MKS as a Town Car replacement? Are they really serious or just playing a real bad joke?

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-11-28 00:34:15 and read 10786 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
The Morris model was eventually replaced by the Morris Marina.

Again another car that sold in the millions yet it's reputation was trashed by Top Gear, you gotta stop basing you opinions on what Clarkson has to say.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
And it's hard to say how much credit BL should get for the Mini.

Quite a bit, most mini's were built under BL's watch.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: flanker
Posted 2012-11-28 00:36:35 and read 10783 times.

Honestly, IMO anything made by Detroit in the 90s and early/mid 2000's. I would take a Yugo, Moskvich, or a Lada over that crap any day.

Aztec, grand am, cavalier, monte carlo, etc.. the list just goes on with these cars that are an INSULT to the automotive industry and anyone who cares about it.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Geezer
Posted 2012-11-28 00:40:50 and read 10778 times.

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 6):
I'd also like to throw in a vote for about half of Nissan's current lineup, especially the Cube and new "Pathfinder" (admittedly that's only opinion though).

Damn ! I KNEW I'd have to go to bat for my "Cubie"! Guess what.... we LOVE that little bugger more every day; just drove it up to Chicago area for thanksgiving............filled up in Rockville, and again in Mazon, Ill. 183 miles up the road.......took all of 4 gallons to fill it up; damn near 46 mpg; and that's cruise control all the way, between 62 to 65 mph.

Since I bought the thing 6 months ago, it's well on it's way to paying for it's self, just in the diesel fuel it's saved me from having to buy. (not to mention the 10K miles I didn't have to put on my 1/T Dodge/ cummins.)

We had the little sucker pretty full too; two adults, both cats, (plus 1 cat litter box, one 40 lb box of cat litter, one fold-up wire cat cage ( which we didn't have to use, and shoulda left at home), 5 cartons of dialysis solution, one rat terrier, (Peabody), one plastic bucket for dog food, cat food, plus 4 bowls for same, plus water; one "take apart" i-V "tree" (for dialysis bags), 1 large camera back pack, plus Gitzo (in bag), a BIG suit case (clothes), and one "mega-mouth" canvas tool bag, (complete 3/8" drive set of metric "extended length" sockets, and assorted other tools; also, I always keep a 2 gal plastic bucket in the back end, with windex, Armorall, rainX, roll of paper towels, etc.
(but what people don't realize.........Cubes are only small on the outside; on the inside, they hold a LOT !
And best of all.......they're FUN ! ( Miss Arlie must have "offered" to drive 25 times, but I never would let her; )

Here's what I'm starting to worry about; at the rate I'm going, I'm gonna need another Cube in about 3 1/2 to 4 years; and I'm worried that Nissan might quit making the things. So I'm thinking about buying another one in about a year, and just leaving it in the garage until this one gets a bunch of miles on the clock; maybe start it up a time or two a week, maybe drive it to TH once a month, that way we'll have a "fresh Cube" when this one starts showing signs of "age".

And Nissan..........I bought the Cube with 15K on it; it's got 25K on it now; the AC condenser "quit" at about 20K; the dealer ran us to Enterprise, rented us another Nissan, put a new condenser on the AC, 3 days later, took the rental back for me....all for N/C. A funny little light came in the inst. panel a week or two ago, said "service engine soon" (right after I had changed the oil and filter); stopped by the dealer, the guy comes out with an "analyzer", fumbles under dash a minute, the light goes out; guess what caused the light to come on? Topping off the gas tank ! he says, "when the auto shut-off shuts off, THAT"S IT ! Do NOT put one more drop in ! ( and wouldn't take a cent !) also, a little "squiggly" looking icon-looking thingie had lit up......he says, "your tires need a "pound or two".........runs it back, puts TWO POUNDS of air in each tire, the "icon-thingie" goes out ! I swear, I think the thing might even tell me when it needs washed ! (Smartest damned car I've ever owned !) So Cubes are GOOD!
And they're NOT "ugly"..........they're "CUTE" !

Charley ( delighted Cube owner )

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-28 01:35:02 and read 10760 times.

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 25):
It is, however, well liked by some there because of it's 1970s looks, which appear a little like Holden HQ (in fact a kind of distant relative) or 1970s American cars.

There was an article I saw a few weeks ago about Nissan's collection and some of their cars from the era would quite easily pass as American.

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 25):
As Rob said, it wasn't necessarily that it was a bad car, it's just that a tiny outfit like Aston couldn't make such a high-tech car work reliably back in 1976.

If my aunt had nuts...

There are some other bad cars that fall under the category of "they just couldn't make it work right." The Vector W8 comes to mind.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 27):
Again another car that sold in the millions yet it's reputation was trashed by Top Gear, you gotta stop basing you opinions on what Clarkson has to say.

Sales success does not necessarily mean a car has any automotive merit. Lee Iacocca credited the K car with saving Chrysler, but people aren't lining up to collect them.

Sure, there are other cars every bit as crappy as the Marina that Top Gear hasn't sadistically destroyed despite deserving it every bit as much. But the Marina was still an awful car. Then again, when you're talking 1970s, it might be easier to list the cars that weren't garbage.

Quoting flanker (Reply 28):
Aztec, grand am, cavalier, monte carlo, etc.. the list just goes on with these cars that are an INSULT to the automotive industry and anyone who cares about it.

No winners there. The Grand Am possibly had the worst body cladding to come from a factory. That along with the Monte Carlo seem to be popular in trailer parks for some reason.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 29):
.filled up in Rockville, and again in Mazon, Ill. 183 miles up the road.......took all of 4 gallons to fill it up; damn near 46 mpg; and that's cruise control all the way, between 62 to 65 mph

Gee, just think what the mileage would be if the aerodynamics were better than a brick.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-11-28 01:59:42 and read 10746 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
But the Marina was still an awful car. Then again, when you're talking 1970s, it might be easier to list the cars that weren't garbage.

I'm pretty confident that prior to Top Gear you had never heard of the Marina let alone seen one.

IMO there is no such thing as a bad car especially when compared to the alternatives, walking or public transport  

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: type-rated
Posted 2012-11-28 02:01:23 and read 10739 times.

In college I had a Corvair Corsa, the high performance version of the Corvair complete with turbocharger. Very reliable car as long as you kept the carbs in synch. But the thing always leaked oil like mad. And the gasket redo job was about $350.00 at the time and would only last about 3,000 miles before it needed to be redone again.
A couple of years ago I saw a large group of Corvairs at a car show and not one of them dripped oil. Amazing. I asked one of the owners how they managed that and he said that in the 90's they came out with new high temp gaskets that solved the problem once and for all. Once installed they'll never leak again.

I only saw one person who owned a Gremlin. I bought a 72' Gremlin in 74'. Within a year the tops of the front fenders rusted through, a year later the passenger floorboard rusted through. I actually had this mess while I was starting my career and even though the body was falling apart it always started and got me to the airport in the morning. Finally one day on the way home from work the oil pump failed and that was the end of the Gremlin. Other Gremlin owners used to love to tell stories along the lines of "Where were you when your Gremlin stranded you?".

I was in Denver one time picking up a rental car in the late 70's and they gave me a Le Car. I went back in and told them I wanted a real car. They said that's all they have left, take it or leave it. The lady at the desk said they are a fun car to drive, so I took her word and tried it out. I actually liked it. It was a fun car to drive, for a week.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-28 02:15:38 and read 10736 times.

In the 80s my brother had a Citroen Visa. After 6 years and much less than 100.000 kms it was such problem-ridden rustbucket with holes everywhere, even in the middle of the doors, that he scrapped it.

Another very bad car was the Lada Nova. I recently spoke to someone who built it in Togliattigrad who told me things how horribly it was produced, and especially, how negligently it was checked before delivery. Some where stored for long periods before being sold, and sometimes they forgot to put oil into the engine, resulting in engines rusting on the inside! It was basically an old Fiat from the 60s still built in the 90s, but with much lower quality than the Italians did it 3 decades before.

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 21):
Lancia Gamma.

Among the 10 worst? The I.E. Coupé at least was a very beautiful car, and a car more pretty than its competition shouldnt have a place in the list. The Gamma had a bad and unreliable engine, yes, but that was it, everything else was up to standard. Same could be said about the NSU Ro 80 btw, a milestone of the German motor industry which influences the Audi design up to today.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-11-28 03:05:38 and read 10711 times.

Quoting na (Reply 33):
It was basically an old Fiat from the 60s still built in the 90s, but with much lower quality than the Italians did it 3 decades before.

It's not the Lada Nova, no such thing, you problably mean Lada Niva which was a small 4x4 or the Fiat 124 based Lada Riva which they made about 17 million in Russia along with a bunch in Turkey, Egypt, Bulgaria and India.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mad99
Posted 2012-11-28 03:13:53 and read 10699 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
Yup it was a turd, but Renault managed to sell 5.5 million of them

that's a r5 here in europe and i owned 2, both second hand. Both were vary good cars, simple and cheep to run.

Also, i got to drive the turbo version (mid engine rwd not the fwd) and it was a blast!

Quoting na (Reply 33):
Citroen Visa

i worked with a guy who had the gt version and it was loads of fun.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-11-28 03:37:06 and read 10695 times.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 35):
Also, i got to drive the turbo version (mid engine rwd not the fwd) and it was a blast!

Turbo I or Turbo II.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mad99
Posted 2012-11-28 03:53:47 and read 10681 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
Turbo I or Turbo II.

i'm not sure but i'd say the 2

if i remember it had about 210hp

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-28 04:40:23 and read 10655 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 34):
It's not the Lada Nova, no such thing, you problably mean Lada Niva which was a small 4x4 or the Fiat 124 based Lada Riva which they made about 17 million in Russia along with a bunch in Turkey, Egypt, Bulgaria and India.

No, I mean the Lada Nova. At least thats the name it was sold under here. Somewhere else it was named Riva, thats true.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: offloaded
Posted 2012-11-28 05:33:52 and read 10623 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 15):
The Allegro, Maxi, Princess, Ambassador, Marina, Ital, Maestro & Montego were all dire.

   ... ah, childhood memories! We had a Maxi 1750cc, and I seem to recall it was really fast. So was my cousin's 2L Maestro.

My neighbour in Portugal actually had an imported RHD Marina out here until a couple of years ago. It would probably have rusted out 2 decades earlier if it had never left England.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: sw733
Posted 2012-11-28 06:29:16 and read 10584 times.

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 1):
The Aztek was an eyesore, there's no doubt about that. But the worst car ever? Please.

It was good enough for Walter White  

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2012-11-28 07:20:13 and read 10547 times.

Quoting Geezer (Thread starter):
contend that the over-all "worst ever" car is the Pontiac Aztec; needless to say, this has not set so well with many current and former Aztec owners.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 18):
I have never owned an Aztek or even driven one, but I think they are cute. I don't understand the hatred of the Aztek.

The problem with the Aztek is that up until that time - Pontiac made some cool niche automobiles. The Aztek was not cool and the amount of money poured into the project hurt the company ability to go forward. It permanently damaged Pontiac's ability to be innovative in a market where standing out was essential.

GM had to sell 30,000 per year to break even - and projected the car at 75,000 per year sales.

The real numbers were bad - less than 28,000 per year. Pontiac lost money on every Aztec it sold - all 108,493 that were sold.

Interestingly a near identical vehicle - the Buick Rendezvous - is considered a success. It brought a lot of young Crossover customers to Buick with its more 'luxury' image. Built at the same factory as the Aztec - on the same basic body.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2012-11-28 08:12:21 and read 10518 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 15):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Pretty much anything ever made by British Leyland

The Allegro, Maxi, Princess, Ambassador, Marina, Ital, Maestro & Montego were all dire.

You've forgotten the TR7, especially the convertible which had a nasty habit of folding up in the middle.

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 21):
Moskvitch/Izh 412

Probably the one car available in the UK in the 1970's where Skoda and Lada owners considered themselves fortunate

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 21):
Vanden Plas Allegro. A plush version of British Leyland's Austin Allegro, this pricey turd replaced the rather nice Vanden Plas 1300, even though all pretension of these being real luxury cars was basically just a visit to the land of make believe. Poor dynamics, poor quality, odd styling, and terminal rust brought many an Allegro to a not-entirely-undeserved early grave.

One model in the range even had the innovative square steering wheel.

The Lancia Beta, mostly suffering from terminal corrosion on delivery.

Early Datsuns, nasty plastic seats and terrible rust problems. Amazing though how a make whose first imports to the UK were so dire could be industry leading within a decade.

Reliant Robin - three wheels at best.

Reliant Kitten, only plus point was that it initially had four wheels !!

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2012-11-28 08:50:51 and read 10509 times.

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 1):
The Aztek was an eyesore, there's no doubt about that. But the worst car ever? Please. Pontiac died because it offered nothing substantially worthwhile that couldn't be gotten in another GM product, minus the G8 of course.

It's worth noting that the Buick Rendezvous (one of the first CUVs on the market) utilized the same exact platform as the Aztec and had respectable sales. The main issue w/the Aztec was its looks in the eyes of most people.

That said, the Aztec alone didn't kill the Pontiac brand. IMHO, the only reason why GM killed off Pontiac rather than Buick was due to the latter make's success in the Chinese market. Strip away the Chinese market and one would have seen higher Pontiac sales numbers than Buicks.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
The parents also owned a mid-70s Pinto (which didn't make the list but should have) and my Dad bought a late 70's Mustang II, which did made the list.

Given the much-publicized gas tank fires from being rear-ended ('71-'76 Pinto/Bobcat sedans & runabout models only); I'm surprised that the Pinto wasn't mentioned either.

Interestingly, despite utilizing the same platform & components as the Pinto; the Mustang II was not reported to have such issues (maybe Ford resolved the matter by then). While the Mustang II was ultimately viewed as a let-down (its first year sales broke the 300k figure) in the eyes of most Mustang enthusiasts; at the time it rolled out, it became more than clear that its larger, early-70s predecessor wasn't going to cut it anymore.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
They bought a Vega brand new in 1974

One early 80s Motor Trend article phrased the Vega as such in its Best & Worst Used Car Review (the Vega was listed #1 under the Worst category), "They rust, they overheat and that engine has the durability of a potato chip."

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Chrysler Sebring

To be fair, prior to 2007-2008; the Sebrings weren't that bad. Competitors upping their game along with the Sebring's mediocre restyle was what did it in IMHO.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
GM cars with the Olds diesel engine

Sadly, the #1 reason why diesel-powered car fell out of favor in the U.S. even to this day.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Cadillac Cimarron

My brother & I were just talking about the Cimmarron the other day. Had Cadillac upsized the J-car platform a tad and styled it more uniquely; it might've had a better overall sales reception.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Cadillac Allante

Yes, this type of car should've been RWD but I don't believe that alone makes the Allante one of the worst cars of all time. Cadillac's last attempt on a 2-seater, the XLR, utilized a Corvette platform and still bombed saleswise.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Ford Edsel

Actually, the brand was simply known as Edsel. While it still was part of Ford Motor Company, the Edsel was a completely separate brand... like Lincoln and Mercury. IMHO, the main issue w/the Edsel's bombing was the fact that it first rolled out during a recession year for the auto industry. 1958 seemed so bad, at the time; that even then, GM actually pondered killing off the Pontiac brand and didn't even bother freshening up the '58 styled models for '59 but instead went with all newly styled (tailfins and all) and longer platforms and bodies.

IMHO, had Edsel rolled out either a model year earlier (1957) or later (1959); it might've survived at least a few years longer.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Ford Mustang II

See above one this one. It's initial sales success had more to do w/the timing of its roll-out. For the 1974 model year; nearly any 4-cylinder powered car was selling like hotcakes due to the high gas prices and long lines at the pumps.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Renault LeCar

   More like LeJunk, espeically w/its paper-thin doors. My cross-country/track coach owned 2 of these.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Yugo

A car that had a starting price of $3990 back in 1987. For that money, one could get a decent used car that wasn't too old back then.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
ALL of the GM X cars?

Truth be told, for the final model years (1984-1985); the majority of the X-body related-issues were resolved/addressed but given the bad reputation & publicity of the earlier models, the X-body was still considered damaged goods. IMHO, many of the models weren't that bad looking. And it's also worth noting that the A-body platform that rolled out 2 years later (1982) shared a lot of components w/its smaller cousins but survived a decade later with some of its later models being viewed as very reliable.

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 6):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Dodge Caliber

Perfect examples of the "that'll do" mentality that existed in Detroit for so long.

To think that the Neon died for this car still blows my mind to this day.

Quoting bohica (Reply 16):
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 10):
Another 'worst' car(s) the 1976-1981 Dodge Aspen/Plymouth Volare.

Which was replaced by something even worse: The "K" cars. The Dodge Aries, Plymouth Reliant, Dodge 400 and Chrysler LeBaron.

It's worth noting that the Aspen/Volare platform lived on as the M-body (actually a spin-off of the Aspen/Volare) lived on through the end of the 80s as the Dodge Diplomat, Chrysler LeBaron ('77-'81), Chrysler New Yorker (1982), Chrysler Fifth Avenue ('83-'89), Plymouth Caravelle (Canada-only '77-'81), Plymouth Gran Fury ('82-'89), Chrysler Cordoba/Dodge Mirada ('80-'83) and the Chrysler Imperial ('81-'83). Most of those vehicles did not suffer from the same level of recalls and relibility issues as the Aspen/Volare.

Love them or hate them, the K-cars were one of the reasons why the Chrysler Corporation survived after its near-death in the late-70s.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 19):
The Pinto and Mustang II were really cars mated for manual transmissions.

   Both of my father's Pinto wagons (a '74 Squire & a '72 base model) were equipped w/manuals. I First learned to drive a stick in my father's '72 (which he bought for $300 back in 1983).

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 19):
Ford LTD II 1977-1979
(At least the T-Bird spun from them were distinct) At first I hated their design but, as I get older am liking their looks. However, if you went with the base Bird from that era it still felt, rode and drove like the lower end LTD II's. Sluggish lack of feel steering, space shuttle power brakes that hurled you forward and seats that were a torture chamber on wheels if you had to drive or ride for more than an hour or 2.

Those weren't that bad. I took my driver's test in my mother's '77 LTD II 4-door. The main issue w/those (IMHO) was that the hoods were longer than that of the full-size LTD (even the pre-downsized models) and the trunk space was lacking (compared to full-size models). The LTD II was essentially a revamped, more angular Torino with a longer hood. Though the large gas tank, 26 gallons, translated to a longer cruising range.

The T-Birds of that era turned out to be the best selling T-Birds per model year ever.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 19):
1979-1993 Mustang, A Fairmont made into a pony car

Sorry, but if it weren't for those Fox-based Mustangs (especially when the High Output GT model rolled out in 1982); the current Mustangs, as we know them, probably wouldn't even exist today.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 19):
Most of the Mercury line from 1958 through 1960, the dark ages of auto styling.

Those were the only years when Mercurys weren't merely stretched and/or dressier Fords. The '58-'60 Edsels filled the Ford-Mercury gap at the time.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-28 08:52:35 and read 10502 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 42):
The Lancia Beta, mostly suffering from terminal corrosion on delivery.

To single out this really nicely driving car isnt quite right (I had one, although a sports version, back in the 80s). There were many cars in the 70s to mid-80s which were rustbuckets, including almost all Italian, French and British cars, even Japanese, and quite a high number of German ones, although the Germans fixed the problem a few years earlier than the neighbours. The problem was that almost all car companies used recyled steel back then which wasnt really "cleaned" from the rust of the cars it formed before, while at the same time they "forgot" to seal sills etc.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Cargolex
Posted 2012-11-28 10:31:21 and read 10453 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):
My brother & I were just talking about the Cimmarron the other day. Had Cadillac upsized the J-car platform a tad and styled it more uniquely; it might've had a better overall sales reception.

The very concept of the Cimmaron was really doomed to failure. But exacerbating the situation was the last-minute nature of the decision to go ahead with it.

A fair amount of time was given to differentiating the Buick and Oldsmobile versions from the Pontiac and Chevrolet versions of the J-car. At that time they were not working hard enough to distinguish the cars from one another, but at least you could tell which ones the Buick and Olds were, and they put time into comprehensively restyling the front and rear of those two cars. Cadillac's last minute decision to go ahead with the Cimmaron meant that kind of time could not be applied to it's version - and so the early Cimmaron was virtually indistinguishable from the the Cavalier at a glance.

It wasn't until 1985 that the car got the V6, and 1986 that the car was facelifted to differentiate it a little, and even then, too little, too late. The car went into production because dealers were screaming in 1980 about how they had nothing to sell against smaller imports, in a year when large car sales totally collapsed (1980 was a very, very bad year to have a showroom stocked with traditional detroit full-sizers, kind of like 2008 for large SUVs).

Worse than this though, should be the realization that Buick wanted to bring over the Opel Senator and Monza and this idea was vetoed by top brass. Had these cars been marketed by Cadillac, chances are the story would be different. They would not, of course, have fit in at all with the rest of the Cadillac lineup at that time and would have embarrassed most of the domestic models across all five divisions.

Quoting na (Reply 33):
The I.E. Coupé at least was a very beautiful car, and a car more pretty than its competition shouldnt have a place in the list.

I do agree about that, and I do like the Gamma, particularly the Coupe. But it also did terminal damage to Lancia's ability to compete with the top-tier luxury brands, and having had the option of owning one of the few that found it's way to the U.S., the ultimate test for me was "Would I?" And I wouldn't.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 35):
that's a r5 here in europe and i owned 2, both second hand. Both were vary good cars, simple and cheep to run.

The R5 is not well regarded in the USA, but it wasn't a bad car. Renault, like Fiat, had a pretty awful dealer network in the United States and support was very poor, as was management's ability to judge what cars Americans wanted and how to properly support them. Since quality in the 1970s was never that great in either France or Italy, all those problems compounded on one another. The Le Car, as the R5 was marketed here, was not very good for US needs. Too small, too small an engine, crappy support, all the hassles of other 1970s cars with very little benefit. In Europe, where it was marketed with a much wider range of engines and options and where dealer support was quite good, it did much better.

The R5 doesn't really deserve to be on this list, but many Americans have bad memories of them. Renault effectively bailed out of supporting the French-built products once it bought American Motors, and focused instead on building the 9 and 11 here. This meant that owners of the French-build Renaults faced even more hurdles at the dealer, and certainly at AMC dealers who were selling the new Renaults but wanted nothing to do with the older ones. The R5 therefore had a very rough time as a used car in 1980s America. Then Renault bailed out of America altogether after 1988, and AMC/Jeep/Eagle dealers really decided they wanted nothing to do with the orphaned Renaults, which they hadn't liked in the first place. AMC's build quality on the Alliance and Encore was very poor as well, and cost Chrysler millions in recalls.

Renault as a brand is essentially permanently tainted by these developments, even if the final french Renaults that were sold here, the R18 and the R21, weren't really that bad, and Renault has been a very good brand for years in its non-north-American markets. It was also a Renault expat, Francois Castaing, who helped build Chrysler Bramalea, Ontario plant that eventually produced some of Chrysler's best 1990s cars.

It isn't just Renault that couldn't plan it's U.S. product strategy properly, either. Peugeot offered a wide range of quite good cars in the 1970s and 1980s, including a car that could have faced off against the XJS and American personal/luxury coupes at the height of their popularity - the 504 Coupe - but you'd never have known that from the U.S. lineup, which year after year consisted only of the 504, 505, and 604. Finally, in 1989, they brought over the 405. But in Europe the 405 was a Honda Accord type of car. In the U.S. it was sold and priced against the much nicer BMW 3-series "because it was European." I loved the 405, and I've owned two of them, but this strategy was a disaster for Peugeot - people know the difference between an Accord type of car and a 3-series type of car, and in the recession of 1991, they threw in the towel - right when they were to introduce the 605 and 306 over the next two years, cars that would have done alot of good for the brand if they'd stayed.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):
Actually, the brand was simply known as Edsel. While it still was part of Ford Motor Company, the Edsel was a completely separate brand... like Lincoln and Mercury. IMHO, the main issue w/the Edsel's bombing was the fact that it first rolled out during a recession year for the auto industry. 1958 seemed so bad, at the time; that even then, GM actually pondered killing off the Pontiac brand and didn't even bother freshening up the '58 styled models for '59 but instead went with all newly styled (tailfins and all) and longer platforms and bodies.

IMHO, had Edsel rolled out either a model year earlier (1957) or later (1959); it might've survived at least a few years longer.

More or less. The Edsel was really no better or worse than some of the competitors. Dodge and Plymouth, which were selling really well at the time thanks to the "forward look" restyling, had quality ills that were arguably worse than anything at Edsel, but are not remembered as lemons the way the Edsel was (though Mopar people know that the '57-'59 Chrysler models are prolific rustbuckets).

The Edsel was a victim of two things - entry into a crowded market during a severe (but short lived) recession that hit that market really hard, and controversial styling up front. It was not really a bad car - just not a great one, and poorly timed.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-28 11:47:04 and read 10436 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
I'm pretty confident that prior to Top Gear you had never heard of the Marina let alone seen one.

I had actually, thanks to a combination of boredom and internet access, but never paid any attention to it since it was just another crummy seventies car. It was probably better that way.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
IMO there is no such thing as a bad car especially when compared to the alternatives, walking or public transport

That's kept quite a few less than stellar cars on the market.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 32):
I took her word and tried it out. I actually liked it. It was a fun car to drive, for a week.

That's the thing. The list of cars I'd drive is way, way longer than the list of cars I'd actually spend money to own. I'd love to go for a spin in a Fiat 500 Abarth or most other hot hatches, but I don't think I'd write a check for one knowing that the same money could buy a used M car, Japanese sports car, or a nice enough Boxster.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
Turbo I or Turbo II.

Now that is a car for the list of "fun cars Americans never got." I think there's a few that managed to sneak over on the grey market.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 41):
The real numbers were bad - less than 28,000 per year. Pontiac lost money on every Aztec it sold - all 108,493 that were sold.

A lot of those Aztecs ended up as company cars for GM employees.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):
To be fair, prior to 2007-2008; the Sebrings weren't that bad. Competitors upping their game along with the Sebring's mediocre restyle was what did it in IMHO.

They still never seemed to get up to the Japanese or European standards, and it got worse as competitors marched onward.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):
Yes, this type of car should've been RWD but I don't believe that alone makes the Allante one of the worst cars of all time.

It will make worst cars lists, but not ugliest cars lists.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):
Cadillac's last attempt on a 2-seater, the XLR, utilized a Corvette platform and still bombed saleswise.

I've heard few complaints about the XLR itself. I think it just would have been dumb to lay out money for an XLR when you could have a Corvette instead.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: dtw9
Posted 2012-11-28 12:34:06 and read 10402 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):

Love them or hate them, the K-cars were one of the reasons why the Chrysler Corporation survived after its near-death in the late-70s.



The K-cars and the Chrysler minivans were both conceived at Ford Motor Co at the time Lee Iacocca was President. The minivan concept was known as the "MiniMax Project" at Ford. Both the Mini-Van and K-car were Ideas that Hal Sperlich and Lee Iacocca presented to Henry Ford ll, who upon seeing the designs, wanted nothing to do with them. After Lee was fired by Henry and hired by Chrysler he brought over with him the designs for both vehicles. Hal Sperlich joined Chrysler shortly after and the rest is history. In 1985 I was talking with a Ford Engineer and he was telling me the story. I really didn't believe him until the next day when he showed me photos of both concepts with the Ford Blue Oval on the grilles.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2012-11-28 13:48:14 and read 10330 times.

Quoting na (Reply 44):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 42):The Lancia Beta, mostly suffering from terminal corrosion on delivery.To single out this really nicely driving car isnt quite right (I had one, although a sports version, back in the 80s). There were many cars in the 70s to mid-80s which were rustbuckets

In my experience it rusted even faster than a Dagenham dustbin (The UK Ford assembly plant in the 70's was at Dagenham, thus all Fords were known as Dagenham Dustbin)

It ight have driven well, but that only meant it reached the scrapyard faster !!

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: MrChips
Posted 2012-11-28 14:26:21 and read 10300 times.

There are a lot of vehicles mentioned here that don't really deserve to be on the list; just because it looks weird or is bad by today's standards doesn't mean it's a bad car. What makes a "bad" car in my mind? Well:

-Unsafe for any reason, be it poor design or cost-cutting: Here we find vehicles like the Pinto, the 1995-2001 Ford Explorer, the current Jeep Grand Cherokee, early Mercedes A-Class and a number of others.

-Badly built: Kind of self-explanatory; either the manufacturer cheaped out at the parts bin (speccing cheap parts), or they just didn't care enough about what they were building to make it better - the classic GM "good enough" attitude. Here we find lots of things from GM, Chrysler, Renault, Peugeot and the Italians.

-Not competitive in its market: This gets a bit more complicated, and is often very subjective. There are lots of cars that are good from a safety, performance, comfort and reliability standpoint by themselves, but when compared to their competition, they simply doesn't measure up. Again, lots of cars are on this list, but recent additions to this list include the 2012 Honda Civic and the 2013+ Chevy Malibu (a car that finished dead last in a number of recent auto magazine comparisons despite being the newest in the segment, and in fact would have finished behind the previous generation Malibu).

Quoting Geezer (Reply 29):
Charley ( delighted Cube owner )

Yeah, I agree on that one; the Cube is "bad" in many people's minds because it's so odd-looking. Once you get past that, it's a pretty good car. There are far worse products in Nissan's lineup anyways.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):

To think that the Neon died for this car still blows my mind to this day.

It sort of didn't. Daimler killed off the Neon replacement for reasons that aren't really clear; probably a combination of trying to re-position Dodge's market niche and a desire to keep as much of Chrysler's cash for themselves as possible. The Caliber was an afterthought given to the compact car market, and it showed in nearly every aspect of the Caliber's build quality and dynamics.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 46):
I've heard few complaints about the XLR itself. I think it just would have been dumb to lay out money for an XLR when you could have a Corvette instead.

The biggest problem with the XLR was it's price - it was pushing deep into territory occupied by the likes of the Mercedes CLK and SL, BMW 6-Series and the Porsche 911, only the Cadillac didn't have the chops to back up the exorbitant price. Also, the engine choice in the XLR was troublesome; while it was once state of the art, the Northstar engine was hopelessly out of date by the time it found itself in the XLR. Even the LSx engines in the Corvette were better overall.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-28 14:43:58 and read 10292 times.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 49):
2013+ Chevy Malibu (a car that finished dead last in a number of recent auto magazine comparisons despite being the newest in the segment, and in fact would have finished behind the previous generation Malibu)

I don't see much positive about that car. It is a Malibu, so the bar isn't very high, but still.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 49):
The Caliber was an afterthought given to the compact car market, and it showed in nearly every aspect of the Caliber's build quality and dynamics.

Hopefully the Fiat/Alfa DNA will make Chrysler competitive in small cars again.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 49):
The biggest problem with the XLR was it's price - it was pushing deep into territory occupied by the likes of the Mercedes CLK and SL, BMW 6-Series and the Porsche 911, only the Cadillac didn't have the chops to back up the exorbitant price.

That's what I gathered at the time. There just wasn't much reason to pay that much for the car. Either you'd buy a European model for the same money or buy a Corvette that was faster for considerably less. The only thing about the XLR that was better than the Vette was having a hardtop, but if that's important, you'd just buy a Mercedes SL or Lexus SC.

It's a shame the XLR wasn't a better car, because I think it was probably the best looking car from Caddie's Art and Science styling. The current CTS is okay, but the ass is a bit large. The ATS is okay too, but some of the details seem off to me.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: PITingres
Posted 2012-11-28 18:45:13 and read 10247 times.

Seriously? we're up to 50 replies and nobody has mentioned the Trabant?

I'd agree with the Yugo, Pinto, Vega, Aspen / Volare. I'd add the 1969 Dart/Valiant; that particular model year seems to have been cursed.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-11-28 19:17:39 and read 10226 times.

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 45):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):
Actually, the brand was simply known as Edsel. While it still was part of Ford Motor Company, the Edsel was a completely separate brand... like Lincoln and Mercury. IMHO, the main issue w/the Edsel's bombing was the fact that it first rolled out during a recession year for the auto industry. 1958 seemed so bad, at the time; that even then, GM actually pondered killing off the Pontiac brand and didn't even bother freshening up the '58 styled models for '59 but instead went with all newly styled (tailfins and all) and longer platforms and bodies.

IMHO, had Edsel rolled out either a model year earlier (1957) or later (1959); it might've survived at least a few years longer.

More or less. The Edsel was really no better or worse than some of the competitors. Dodge and Plymouth, which were selling really well at the time thanks to the "forward look" restyling, had quality ills that were arguably worse than anything at Edsel, but are not remembered as lemons the way the Edsel was (though Mopar people know that the '57-'59 Chrysler models are prolific rustbuckets).

The Edsel was a victim of two things - entry into a crowded market during a severe (but short lived) recession that hit that market really hard, and controversial styling up front. It was not really a bad car - just not a great one, and poorly timed.

I checked out the history of the Edsel and, Ford made a big adoo saying it was futuristic and a major change. It was sort of a case of the emperor and his new clothes. From the side and rear they were basically the same fugly (in my opinion) 1957-1959 big Fords with that inverted front vent window creating a dog leg which cut into passenger room. But, that grill was controversial. The 1958 Edsel front was compared to a "horse collar," Oldsmobile sucking a lemon, and some even felt the vertical triangle was a subliminal cue to a girl's pussy! Which in 1958 America was a no no that stuff was done in the dark behind closed doors! For 1959, the grill was toned down and actually not that bad looking. A close friend who was Edsel obsessed and a member of the Edsel club owned a 1959 White Edsel Ranger Wagon with a red interior. That interior was as bare bones and depression era as the low end Fords but retailed for more money.
Interestingly Edsel's last year saw a major redesign as the Big Fords got more contemporary for 1960 model year and lost that horrendous hippo look and that horrible inverted over kill 1950's front vent window. Gone on the Edsel were the Horse Collar grill of '58 and '59. Those 60 Edsels are extremely rare especially convertibles of the species but the die was cast and the Edsel became a historical footnote. Even if it came out in '57 that grill mated with the same old same old fat Ford design were two strikes against it. Even the name sounded weird to people. Edsel sounded like Diesel or the name of a kitty cat with Down's Syndrome.

The 1958 GM line was supposed to be a one year/shot deal. GM thought the wave of the future was to radically redesign their land yachts on an annual basis. The horrid looking 58's were basically carryovers of the 1957 Buick, Olds and Caddy's which were some of the ugliest (at least in my opinion) cars the General rolled out. The Buick and Olds wagons of 57 and '58 looked like tubas with wheels!
Interestingly Harley Earl was against the campaign to completley restyle the GM large cars for '59. He wanted to take a more conservative approach and freshen up the hippo '58's. I'm glad the General didn't listen to him. The 1959's epitomize the space age rockin rocket ship era of the late 1950's.

I never heard GM wanted to kill Pontiac back in the late 1950's. Up through 1958 Pontiacs were considered staid matron mobiles. Like Marlboro ciggies their images were radically worked over to make both brands macho. 1959 saw the current Pontiac triangle logo and The Wide Track. So to kill them off seemed odd.

Though 58 was a recession year that was the first year of the now 4 seater re-desined T Bird. And next to the LTD II era birds of 77 to 79 these were the T-Bird's best sales. The Thunderbird was one of the exceptions of ugly 1958 car styling in my opinion.

The Mercs of those years were just plain awkward and fugly. The Turnpike Cruiser used all the bad styling cues of the late 1950's; too much chrome, wierd angles etc. Those Merc's were old lady matron cars!

Many car people say the 1958 to 1960 Continentals were the worst for quality and build. The 1955 to 1957 Mark II were hand built and cost $10,000 which in the 50's for an auto put it up there with the elites. Those two doors to me are timeless in design and remind me a big of the Mercedes of that era. They were big, bad, luxurious but built like a brick sh*t house. So to many the Breezeway Continentals came across as gaudy and almost killed off Lincoln and Continental. It was Bob Engel who came out with the "JFK" Continentals including the iconic 4 door convertible that restored the marque. Some say the 1961 Continentals were the most radically re-styled, re-designed ever.

And I agree with Superfly; today's Lincolns are trying to be me too by adopting confusing names, letters and numbers. Leave the alphabet soup to the Europeans and Japanese and make a decent product using your classic brand names and stand behind them.


The Aztec always reminds me of those awful bloated outdated AMC Hornet/Eagle four door station wagons.   

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2012-11-28 20:34:45 and read 10209 times.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 39):
We had a Maxi 1750cc, and I seem to recall it was really fast

   Compared to a shopping trolley maybe   I vaguely remember my dad had one as a courtesy car and was comparing the gearbox to a spoon in a bowl of porridge - that was because his brand new Renault 11 was constantly in the garage for leaking windscreen each time it rained. Another nomination for a pretty crappy car, though better than the ones before it.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 39):
So was my cousin's 2L Maestro.

The MG version was actually fairly potent for its time, but it was still a Maestro.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 27):
Quite a bit, most mini's were built under BL's watch.

In fairness, they got pretty lucky inheriting it from Austin.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 26):
The MKS as a Town Car replacement? Are they really serious or just playing a real bad joke?

They are serious, Lincoln managed to sell a MKS to an old guy I know and took his Continental as a trade in. Not a Town Car, but that was a nice ride with a very smooth engine. The MKS is butt ugly too and so far he has had quite a few electrical faults.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
When the world was screaming for more Hillman Hunters, the Iranians stepped up to the plate.

Ah, Hillman, the Imp too. Forgotten about them, saw a couple in Malta when I was there along with a few Marina's and other British stuff from my childhood - that place was paradise for crappy car nostalgia! Not to mention the trucks.

Some others that were awful:

Datsun Cherry
FSO Polonez
Fiat Strada
Fiat 127
Skoda Estelle - cant believe no one mentioned this one!

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 42):
Reliant Robin - three wheels at best.

   Anything reliant, always wanted to drive Delboy's van though!

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 42):
You've forgotten the TR7, especially the convertible which had a nasty habit of folding up in the middle.

I dont remember it being particularly bad, my friends lodger had one with a V8 and it was pretty potent machine. I guess I dont remember too much about it as he wrapped it round a tree not too long after getting it.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-11-28 21:29:35 and read 10185 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 53):
They are serious, Lincoln managed to sell a MKS to an old guy I know and took his Continental as a trade in. Not a Town Car, but that was a nice ride with a very smooth engine.

The MKS was the true Continental replacement.
The Continental has been a Taurus-based, front-drive car every since the 1988 model year.
This is not a Town Car replacement at all.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Max Q
Posted 2012-11-28 21:39:54 and read 10193 times.

My Pos 2009 Camry SE.


The worst car Toyota has ever made

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Dano1977
Posted 2012-11-29 06:00:47 and read 10113 times.

There is nothing wrong with a Yugo....


When I was 14, my parents acquired a Yugo for me to drive around the horse paddock (no horses were harmed).

It was a rust bucket, but it kept on going despite what abuse i dished out to the poor little car. Started first time no matter what the weather. It did a lot of good, I had 8 driving lessons before being put in for my driving test and passed first time.

It was a sad day, when the vehicle scrap man came to pick it up, for it to be crushed into a little cube.


Other cars to add to the survey...

Any Rover that was just a re-badged Honda - The only good thing was the K-Series engine.

MG-F Horrible car, My dad saw the preview pictures, went to the dealership and ordered one - owned it for 12 months and sold it.

Peugeot 405 Mi16x4 It was an Ok car styling wise, but build quality was shocking. Going round the M25 at 70-75mph pressing the brake pedal which goes straight to the floor and not having any brakes, is a scary experience, especially when the car was only 3 months old, and hadn't even done 2000 miles. Other build quality issues related to the electrics, like the front seat warmers clicking on by themselves. The rear spoiler departed the car at speed.

Vauxhall Calibra - It was just a Vauxhall Cavalier/Vectra with a cocktail dress on. Shame the chassis wasn't a match to go with its looks.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2012-11-29 07:55:51 and read 10070 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 52):
I never heard GM wanted to kill Pontiac back in the late 1950's.

There was a tid-bit in an old Collectible Automobile magazine article that covered 50s cars that mentioned it. It may have been an in-house rumor/proposal that was never made public.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 52):
It was Bob Engel who came out with the "JFK" Continentals

I believe you meant Elwood Engel; he was also the one who designed the fuselage-bodied full-size Chryslers of the late 60s/early 70s.

IMHO, if Lincoln ever needed another '61 Continental moment; it's now! The current crop of 'large' Lincolns are epic-fails.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: ER757
Posted 2012-11-29 13:23:58 and read 9990 times.

There were some true turkeys named above - Vega, Pinto, Yugo, the K-cars and others - all deserve to be on the list, but I am reminded of a friend of mine who had a Vega, hated it and traded it in for what may be the worst car of all-time...The Opel Cadet! Man, what a pice of junk that thing was - the damned gas pedal fell off on our way home from the shworoom - I am not making that up. Every time he turned a knob or flipped a switch, sompething else fell apart. And it spent more time in the shop than on the road

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-29 14:07:28 and read 9971 times.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 58):
Man, what a pice of junk that thing was - the damned gas pedal fell off on our way home from the shworoom - I am not making that up.

It's not like the gas pedal was going to do anything anyway.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 58):
Every time he turned a knob or flipped a switch, sompething else fell apart.

My mom's 1992 Caprice has a similar issue. Even if things don't break, every time you actuate a switch or lever it feels like you broke it. And the combination of little pedal travel and little discernible effect always makes it seem like the floor mat is caught under the accelerator.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Geezer
Posted 2012-11-29 16:00:35 and read 9937 times.

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 45):
The Edsel was a victim of two things - entry into a crowded market during a severe (but short lived) recession that hit that market really hard, and controversial styling up front. It was not really a bad car - just not a great one, and poorly timed.

It was not really a bad car - just not a great one, and poorly timed.

I'll have to take your word for that.......as I have never owned one; But I did make a surprising conclusion a few years back, as to why the Edsel became such an "icon" of failure; as you may, (and probably do know), there is, (or at least was) a very large "Edsel Club"; all of them have their Edsels, all completely restored, washed, waxed, and shining like new pennies. On several occasions while I was still "out & about", running hither and yon trying to deliver "Government Motor's" vehicles to dealers, I ran across these Edsel "lovers" (and their Edsels) a few times; even talked with a few of them when we were staying in the same motels / hotels. One thing became crystal clear; their apparent "euphoria" over a vehicle deemed by most people to be "less than pleasing", was due in large measure to just ONE THING; the very center of the front grille ! They were totally obsessed by the fact that the "front end" of their Edsels bore a striking resemblance to something else; (which had nothing to do with transportation.)

I can't prove any of this, as it's simply my own "observation"; but in talking with many Edsel owners, I couldn't help noticing a peculiar fascination they all seemed to have with their vehicles "front ends"! (and how many of them seemed to spend an inordinate amount of time "rubbing and polishing", "rubbing and polishing", always in the same general area !

Charley

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-11-29 18:47:35 and read 9899 times.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 60):

I also made mention of this in one of my earlier replies to this thread.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):

And, it was interesting the 1959 Edsel's front was way toned down from the 1958.
And, the compact car that became the Mercury Comet was supposed to be sold under the Edsel flag as their "small entry level car!" Mercury got it instead upon the death of Edsel.

Another bit of 1950's automotive trivia, Ford bandied the name Hepcat for what was the Thunderbird! Sometimes just the car's name can make it or brake it!
I thought the 2013 Malibu was basically a facelift and re-skinning of the current Malibu. Toi me it looks pretty much the same.

Also in an earlier reply someone mentioned the 1990's era Ford Explorer SUV. What was wrong with them? I had a lot of experience with them because I was a bellman/valet at a luxury hotel back then. They were in style then along with the bulky fugly Expidition. At least in my opinion looks wise this Explorer was the best of the three generations. Each successive incarnation got uglier in the looks department. I'm not an SUV fan but they drove nice. Go figure.

I'm surprised no one mentioned the last car to be called a Pontiac LeMans. The ugly little 4 door that was from Korea this would have been the late 80's. They always got mediocre at best reviews.

Does anyone know if Honda remedied a lot of the shortcomings in their 2013 Civics? The 2012's were panned in the auto press.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 57):
I believe you meant Elwood Engel; he was also the one who designed the fuselage-bodied full-size Chryslers of the late 60s/early 70s.

IMHO, if Lincoln ever needed another '61 Continental moment; it's now! The current crop of 'large' Lincolns are epic-fails.

  

LIncoln should get back to it's routes and get away from trying to be a foreign car wannabe.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: seb146
Posted 2012-11-29 23:05:03 and read 9869 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):
the Aztec alone didn't kill the Pontiac brand

They did manage to parlay the Aztek into the Vibe, which was also a cute little car.

I think, though, GM decided since Buick was a more reconginzed brand world-wide, they kept that and axed Pontiac. Also, more older people in the US with more disposible income would go for a Buick before Pontiac.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-11-29 23:44:36 and read 9867 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 61):
The ugly little 4 door that was from Korea this would have been the late 80's.

Which started life in 1984 as the Opel Kadett.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-29 23:52:09 and read 9863 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 61):
Also in an earlier reply someone mentioned the 1990's era Ford Explorer SUV. What was wrong with them?

Their tendency to roll over when a tire failed understandably turned a lot of people off.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 62):
They did manage to parlay the Aztek into the Vibe, which was also a cute little car.

The Aztek and Vibe were not related from an engineering standpoint. The Aztek/Rendezvous shared a platform with the GM minivans while the Vibe was basically a rebadged Toyota Matrix that shares pieces with the Corolla.

The real Aztek replacement was the Torrent, which was a rebadged Chevy Equinox, making it a passable, if wholly unremarkable, vehicle.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: JJJ
Posted 2012-11-30 01:43:50 and read 9840 times.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 35):
that's a r5 here in europe and i owned 2, both second hand. Both were vary good cars, simple and cheep to run.

Also, i got to drive the turbo version (mid engine rwd not the fwd) and it was a blast!

I owned one, it was my first car and it took all the abuse I put it through (even though the car was almost as old as I when I took it) and still held long enough for my brother to take over when I finally bought a new car.

It was one of the old pre-turbo diesels. Massively underpowered (unless going downhill) but really cheap to run.

I got to drive my uncle's turbo (I was supposed to inherit it, but mom vetoed the decission and looking back it was probably for the best) but it was the post-restyling GT Turbo version (so front, not middle-engined).

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: type-rated
Posted 2012-11-30 01:59:26 and read 9838 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 61):
Also in an earlier reply someone mentioned the 1990's era Ford Explorer SUV

I had a 1993 Explorer Sport for a few years. The problem with it was the handling, especially at high speeds on the freeway.
It drove like you would imagine a car would on top of a 10 foot tall ladder mounted on roller skates. Most cars will have some body roll into a curve, but it comes on gradually. If you drove the Explorer into a curve on the road it would try to stay level but then at a certain point in the curve all the body roll would come on all at once which would require some tricky driving to keep the vehicle on it's feet. I upgraded the anti-sway bars, installed heavier shocks but nothing would really help this car. I believe it was a design issue. The car simply had too high of a center of gravity. In the hands of someone who isn't adept at driving this vehicle could be downright dangerous.

My next car a BMW X5 had none of these handling issues at all.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mad99
Posted 2012-11-30 02:29:15 and read 9823 times.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 65):
Massively underpowered

both of mine were 1.4l petrol and second gen models. I don't remember them as being slow unless i had 4 in it.

Also, last night i saw a renault 7. These are r5 built just for spain and the reason i was told was that the hatchback r5 was too modern at the time!

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-30 02:36:26 and read 9825 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 48):
Quoting na (Reply 44):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 42):The Lancia Beta, mostly suffering from terminal corrosion on delivery.To single out this really nicely driving car isnt quite right (I had one, although a sports version, back in the 80s). There were many cars in the 70s to mid-80s which were rustbuckets

In my experience it rusted even faster than a Dagenham dustbin (The UK Ford assembly plant in the 70's was at Dagenham, thus all Fords were known as Dagenham Dustbin)

It ight have driven well, but that only meant it reached the scrapyard faster !!

I repeat it, its unfair to single out the Beta. When I sold mine, which was of the two-door HPE bodystyle, it was 8 years old, and I had enjoyed it for more than 5 years. It was great to drive, very beautiful outside, had a very nice and very practical interior, and I would say its reliability was average. Looking back it perhaps was the car I enjoyed most. It was rusty at the end, absolutely, had clocked about 140.000 kms (of which I drove 120.000) and should still have done 2 years or 4 more. So pretty much what could be expected from most cars from the early 80s. And by now its a classic with the prices going up.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-11-30 03:43:04 and read 9824 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Edsel

Not sure where all the Edsel hatred is coming from. That was a great car that just so happened to sale poorly. It was an upmarket car that was released during a recession. The 1958 model year had a beautiful front grille....



Honestly, my vote goes to the Chevrolet Volt.



The Edsel flop was called the greatest failure in the history of the auto industry. Now we have the adventure of Government Motors' Chevy Volt. In the 2011 calendar year, "the electric car that runs on gasoline" sold exactly 7,651 vehicles; vehicles that cost the American taxpayer $250,000 each for a total screwing of $3 Billion dollars - that's according to Mackinac Center for Public Policy.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: ImperialEagle
Posted 2012-11-30 04:43:09 and read 9795 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):
Not sure where all the Edsel hatred is coming from.

Yeah, they lasted and lasted like the old Mercs of that era. When one appeared behind us in traffic my father used to muse that the front looked like a giant vagina! I thought the push-button automatic tranny selector in the steering-wheel hub was pretty kool. Would be real nice on a Town Car.

Worst cars I've ever experienced were an Audi 100 and a Volvo 170. Mechanical disasters. Both had issues so bad I would never want another of those brands. Back in the 90's the Bosch (I pronounced "botch") starters for the Volvo were very poorly made. I once went through THREE NEW ones before I got one that would work!

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-11-30 08:39:33 and read 9733 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
GM cars with the Olds diesel engine

The 350 diesel sucked and it was underpowered for the cars it was put in. Nothing was worse than getting stuck behind a 1980 Cadillac Fleetwood with a 100hp diesel on a hill. To be fair my 1980 Mercedes 300 TD (station wagon, not turbo) wasn't any faster, but was way more reliable.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Renault LeCar

I knew a guy who had one that had rust on it the day he brought it home from the dealership. He returned it and got another. That one was rusted out before he finished paying for it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Ford Edsel

Just Edsel. It was a good car, no different than other Fords of its day.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
the Smart line up and the Fiat 500. Man, are those bad

They may look odd for the US, but I don't think they are bad cars.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
The Pinto was a bad car, but it's reputation is even worse than it actually was

The engine was great, they used versions of it for almost 40 years,

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):
Honestly, my vote goes to the Chevrolet Volt.

The Volt is actually a good car and the fires are total BS. One of the garage fires was actually caused by a homemade electric car parked next to it and the other was from faulty installation of the charger, by an owner. The fires on an insurance company test lot were weeks after a crash and after not having the batteries drained according to GM specifications.

The Volt has little to do with Obama. The car was conceived and the first test models were on the roads when Bush was still president. As a rightest I get tired of all the lies spread about the Volt. It is actually a well built car and everyone I have ever met who complains about them has never driven one.

I have driven the Volt, in the snow in downtown Detroit and it was on battery power and we had heat.

Quoting na (Reply 71):
3 billion just for this single car type? Hard to believe

I think it is down to about $150,000 now. I don't hear people bitching about other electrics which are also costing companies more to build than to sell. Chrysler is now going to sell some electric in Californian because they have too, not because they will make money. Sometimes the price to get the technology in the marketplace is high and sold at a loss, but the knowledge gained is valuable. If GM wasn't building the Volt people would be saying the GM is falling behind other companies who sell electric cars.

What makes a bad car differs for a lot of people. As a mechanic I look at a bad car as one that doesn't last very long or is a total pain in the butt to repair. There are plenty of ugly cars that weren't bad to fix. The Aztek is like that. Mechanically it was a fine car. The Cadillac Catera was a pile of junk and sucks to work on. A Ford Taurus from the early 2000s is a pile of junk, from a mechanics point of view, but a lot of people consider them good cars.

The Chrysler K cars were unreliable turds, but they were cheap and easy to fix, which is better than a car that breaks down and is expensive and difficult to repair.

1970s and 1980s GM pickups were rust buckets, but they are sooooo easy to fix and get parts for they are great trucks.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-11-30 09:57:39 and read 9703 times.

Quoting na (Reply 71):
At the end of 2011 production was stopped for a short time.

That was due to production levels not meeting demand.

GM even over played the battery fire nonsense. They offered people their money back on the cars, which made people think the problem was worse than it was. GM and no other company will buy back people's conventional cars because two crash tested cars had a battery fire weeks after they were crashed. There are 1000s of fires relating to conventional car batteries (ask Superfly about the kind of damage they can do). Every automotive textbook has a list of safety rules to follow so batteries don't catch fire and explode. I saw a battery explode at an motorcycle shop last summer and the aftermath of a battery fire on a boat that was brought in for repair at my friend's shop. A good friend had a battery fire in his camper a month ago, due to a charging system failure. Fortunately he put it out before the damage left the battery compartment.

Back when the media was all fired up over Volt fires a lady at my church was going on about how dangerous the car was and how the government should do something about it. I told her about the dangers of conventional car batteries and she was shocked. She had no idea how dangerous a lead acid battery could be.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-30 11:46:38 and read 9675 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):
Not sure where all the Edsel hatred is coming from.

Looks mostly, and being synonymous half a century later with being a sales flop.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):
Honestly, my vote goes to the Chevrolet Volt.

If you want to blast an electric car for catching fire, you should be after the far better looking Fisker Karma. They've already seen recalls (two I think) and several burned in a port during Hurricane Sandy, but as far as I know the investigation is still pending.

Quoting na (Reply 71):
Anyway, if remotely true thats for the cars sold so far.

It is, and there's plenty of ways to spin those numbers. None of them appear especially good, but some are less bad than others. Either way, making a big investment up front isn't bad, as long as it isn't public money.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 75):
That was due to production levels not meeting demand.

Then why were there stories about dealers dropping prices on Volts to make sure they sold?

Quoting falstaff (Reply 75):
Back when the media was all fired up over Volt fires a lady at my church was going on about how dangerous the car was and how the government should do something about it.

If you get hurt in a Volt fire it means you've already survived a crash.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-11-30 12:03:22 and read 9663 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 76):
Then why were there stories about dealers dropping prices on Volts to make sure they sold?

I wrote that backwards... The line shut down due to the fact that demand wasn't as high as production levels.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 76):
If you get hurt in a Volt fire it means you've already survived a crash.

But the crashed tested cars caught fire weeks after the crash and were sitting on a lot.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 76):
you should be after the far better looking Fisker Karma

That recall helped bankrupt A123 Systems, which made the batteries. A123 put a lot of eggs in the Fisker basket and when the cars didn't sell well they laid off a lot people. When the recall happened they filed for bankruptcy. There were a lot of Michigan politicians (both sides) who thought A123 was going to be one of the saviours of Michigan's economy.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 76):
Looks mostly, and being synonymous half a century later with being a sales flop

But the car's quality wasn't the issue. It wasn't any more unreliable than other cars of the time.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-11-30 12:50:09 and read 9645 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 78):
Kinda like Solyndra was supposed to help pull us out of the recession since it's a job of the future...

Yep... I went to a conference back in '09 put on by the Michigan Department of Labor and people from A123 were there selling us on their nonsense and how they were going to put Michigan back to work and would soon be building batteries for the 100,000s of electric cars that would be soon rolling off assembly lines, like the closed GM plant in Delaware. (Fisker and Joe Biden assured us that the plant would be churning out Fiskers ASAP). A buddy of mine who is a "progressive green" and I were talking in the back of the room about how stupid this was and that battery technology wasn't ready for the mainstream yet when a guy turned around and yelled at us saying "you guys are wrong, this is going to turn our economy around and it will be like a new industrial revolution". I would love to run into that guy and ask him what he thinks now that A123, after getting money from the Feds and the state, is bankrupt and living on investments from the Chinese.

Funny how the jobs of the future are not the jobs of today. People who get jobs of the future are only in them for a short time before they end up in the unemployment line.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-30 13:31:49 and read 9630 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 77):
But the car's quality wasn't the issue. It wasn't any more unreliable than other cars of the time.

The thing is that when it comes to looks in the 1950s, there wasn't a ton of diversity. You had the quirky compact cars like the Beetle and Nash Metropolitan. You had some iconic sports car and coupe designs like the BMW 507, Porsche 356 and Corvette. Then there were the really grand cars of the fifties with the massive fins and acres of chrome like the Bel Air, Eldorado, and Lincoln Continental. But the rest of the cars from that era really looked pretty similar. Ford Fairlanes, Chrysler 300s, and Chevy Impalas all looked pretty similar. The Edsel was different, but not in a good way.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 78):
...and batteries are supposed to come in handy when there is a hurricane. Perhaps they should issue warnings in Florida to avoid all Fiskers during a hurricane.

Electricity and water is a bad idea. To be fair, I don't think they are certain how many cars actually ignited or if one just touched them all off.

Quoting na (Reply 80):
Basically right, but if new technologies arent helped by public money, the big money of the mainstream would kill everything new that isnt making big profits from the start.

There's plenty of advances that don't rely on government money. If you cannot convince venture capital, private equity, etc. that a given technology will pay off why should the government listen?

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: MrChips
Posted 2012-11-30 13:31:58 and read 9631 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):
The Edsel flop was called the greatest failure in the history of the auto industry. Now we have the adventure of Government Motors' Chevy Volt. In the 2011 calendar year, "the electric car that runs on gasoline" sold exactly 7,651 vehicles; vehicles that cost the American taxpayer $250,000 each for a total screwing of $3 Billion dollars - that's according to Mackinac Center for Public Policy.

The Volt is selling a lot better this year than last year (they've sold almost 20,000 of them year-to-date). Thinking like that also turns a blind eye to the fact that you can take the technology and the platform and build, you guessed it, other car models with it! (who'd have thought of that?). Over time, it will turn into money well spent - it's just going to take a few more years to get there.

I would even argue that it's already money well spent - I've driven a Volt on an extended test drive, and I have to say that it is by far the best car I've ever driven from any American manufacturer. It's well-built, practical and carefully thought out inside and out, it's surprisingly fun to drive and it while it isn't beautiful, it's not god-awful ugly either...and, it's made in the US with almost entirely American IP (though many of the parts are made overseas). You guys should be proud of what you've done, not kick it around like some kind of political football.

Quoting na (Reply 71):

3 billion just for this single car type? Hard to believe. Anyway, if remotely true thats for the cars sold so far. And it will be a lesson for future models so this waste might pay off some day.

That's about how much it cost these days to design and build a single model of car on an existing platform - it can be much higher than that too, depending on what class the car is in. If you're developing a new architecture upon which to build this car, the cost goes up even higher - Volkswagen's new MQB platform (which will underpin all of their FWD models across all their brands in the next 5-10 years) cost them something like $80 billion to develop.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-30 14:01:30 and read 9622 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 79):
I would love to run into that guy and ask him what he thinks now that A123, after getting money from the Feds and the state, is bankrupt and living on investments from the Chinese.

Just ran across a report today that Fisker has had to stop production due to lack of batteries.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-11-30 14:16:42 and read 9615 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 83):
Just ran across a report today that Fisker has had to stop production due to lack of batteries

interesting. I guess they relied on A123 to make them a product and when A123 built them an inferior product they screwed themselves. This is a good example of why suppliers and manufactures need to work well together so they can deliver a top quality product.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-30 14:39:28 and read 9604 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 81):
There's plenty of advances that don't rely on government money. If you cannot convince venture capital, private equity, etc. that a given technology will pay off why should the government listen?

Because there are technologies or ideas which dont pay off immediately, or are wanted by the public or the governments for other reasons than just immediate profit. If you rely on private money ONLY investments that do guarantee fast returns will be supported, everything else will disappear. Look, who is really interested in the industry to change the propulsion technics for sale today? No one in the big car industry, and particularly no one in the very influential fossil fuel industry. I am absolutely sure that they are holding and hiding patents which would be the dream of the average car owner, but mean less profit for the industry and the tax office.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-30 18:28:27 and read 9556 times.

Quoting na (Reply 85):
If you rely on private money ONLY investments that do guarantee fast returns will be supported, everything else will disappear.

That's not true. There's venture capital, private equity, not to mention that most car manufacturers are quite large, have a lot of money when they aren't going bankrupt, and sell cars all over the world. The whole alternative fuel idea hasn't just popped up, and the benefits really aren't even a question at this point. It's just a matter of who can make it work and bring it to market.

Quoting na (Reply 85):
Look, who is really interested in the industry to change the propulsion technics for sale today?

Anyone who wants to make money. Why would anyone who has the technology to bring a truly practical and competitive electric car to market just sit on the patents? The potential payday is huge, certainly huge enough to justify the investment. The reason that investment wouldn't be made is if the people holding the money, internally or externally, don't believe it will pay off. And if those people aren't willing to risk their own money, they shouldn't be willing to risk everyone else's.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-11-30 19:35:10 and read 9545 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 19):
I'm glad the Corvair did not make the lists at least not here; Ralf Nadir unfairly made that car the center of his crusade. Actually, it was a pretty good car for most.



Nader said later that the reason he picked on the Corvair was that GM was a bigger target. IF the Corvair had any handling problems at all, it was because there was a pretty good differential between tire pressures, front and rear and some people were just putting the same pressure in all 4, which didn't help matters. Anyway, most handling problems were solved when the 65 and later cars came out and they had basically the same rear IRS as the Corvette with no swing axle problems.

A little bit of trivia........the silicon impregnated, aluminum block was supposed to be originally for the Corvair but for one reason or another the plan was scrapped. Because of this, the Corvair's engine was heavier than originally planned and because most of the weight was BEHIND the rear axle, along with the tire pressure problem, could make the handling kinda quirky.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 19):
Fiats back in the day became so bad they were known as Fix It Again Tony! And thus left the American market till
recently.

I don't know.......I had a 72, Fiat 124 Spyder and it was a pretty good car. The fact that it rusted probably had as much to do with midwestern winters and how roads were treated as much as the lack of rustproofing.


In other news, I once heard a comic state that he was glad that the rear window in his Yugo had a defroster because it kept his hands warm when he was pushing it.


And, yes.......I've owned a Gremlin AND a Vega, so I know good and bad.

[Edited 2012-11-30 19:49:40]

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-30 19:46:56 and read 9540 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 87):
Because of this, the Corvair's engine was heavier than originally planned and because most of the weight was BEHIND the rear axle, along with the tire pressure problem, could make the handling kinda quirky.

Porsche 911s, some worse than others, up until the introduction of the 964 had similar handing issues and it gained a reputation for snap oversteer. I've heard it described more than once as like a bowling ball on a string. The Turbo models, which like many turbocharged cars before the 1990s suffered significant lag, were particularly known for backing off the road if the boost came on in the middle of a corner.

It's worth noting that for the most part, each generation of the 911 sees the engine creep forward with respect to the rear wheels. The 991 gained one inch of length but four inches of wheelbase over the 997.

And, since I thought of it, early Porsche 928 was known for not liking paint on roads. Apparently having a tire hit a stripe could make things uncomfortable. The checkered upholstery wasn't so hot either, but doesn't really put it in contention for worst car ever (probably not even worst Porsche ever), although the notion of it replacing the 911 is laughable in hindsight.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Geezer
Posted 2012-11-30 20:16:40 and read 9536 times.

Quoting na (Reply 85):
I am absolutely sure that they are holding and hiding patents which would be the dream of the average car owner, but mean less profit for the industry and the tax office.

Yeah, right.........like those carburetors from the 60's that will get a full size Cadillac 150 MPG ? Yeah, I've been "hearing about" them for about 65 years now............(never seen one though, and don't know anyone who has), but they're "out there", thats for sure ! ( Must be all those "greedy" oil companies got 'em all locked up in a vault, huh ?)

Charley

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-11-30 20:57:31 and read 9525 times.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 89):
Yeah, right.........like those carburetors from the 60's that will get a full size Cadillac 150 MPG ? Yeah, I've been "hearing about" them for about 65 years now............(never seen one though, and don't know anyone who has), but they're "out there", thats for sure !

There's that old urban legend about a guy who bought a new car and noticed that it barely seemed to burn any fuel. Then after he had it a day or two he looks out his window in the middle of the night and sees two guys working under the hood who quickly slam it and leave. After that the car gets normal gas mileage.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-11-30 22:09:43 and read 9503 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 73):
What makes a bad car differs for a lot of people. As a mechanic I look at a bad car as one that doesn't last very long or is a total pain in the butt to repair. There are plenty of ugly cars that weren't bad to fix. The Aztek is like that. Mechanically it was a fine car. The Cadillac Catera was a pile of junk and sucks to work on. A Ford Taurus from the early 2000s is a pile of junk, from a mechanics point of view, but a lot of people consider them good cars.

The Chrysler K cars were unreliable turds, but they were cheap and easy to fix, which is better than a car that breaks down and is expensive and difficult to repair.

1970s and 1980s GM pickups were rust buckets, but they are sooooo easy to fix and get parts for they are great trucks.

Did you ever get to work on Mustang II's with the V6 and V8? I can imagine it being quite tight under the hood of a Pinto sized auto with those larger engines shoehorned in under the hood. I many saying the "bitchin "Cammarros and Firebirds with V8's
were also difficult to work on.

And I wonder with Edsel. Had the name been different, would the car survived and made it? Again from what I read and saw in news stories from that era Ford Motor Company hyped up the Edsel so much as being revolutionary and complety different than anything else on the road back in the day that when it acutally made it's appearance it was a letdown. It would be like Boeing or Airbus keeping us all in suspense touting their new commercial airliner would be like nothing we've ever seen before but then when it makes it's debut looks like much of what's already flying but maybe the nose looks like say a clitoris and then it would be the laughing stock like the Edsel back in the day.

And within 5 to 7 years Pontiac came out with their vertical design on their grill and it was a big hit. And, what was the story with the 1960 Edsel?

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: type-rated
Posted 2012-12-01 01:33:35 and read 9482 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 86):
And, what was the story with the 1960 Edsel?

The Pontiac center nose was more sculpted and more in scale with the size of the car. Ford also did something similar with their mid 60's Thunderbirds front end.

The center nose of the Edsel was oversized and was very large for the car. To me it looked like a horse harness. At the time a lot of people thought the car looked like "it was sucking on a lemon", which made a lot of people think the car really was a lemon and most likely unreliable.

It was just the wrong car for the wrong time. too expensive during a recessionary period.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: na
Posted 2012-12-01 02:48:12 and read 9464 times.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 84):
Yeah, I've been "hearing about" them for about 65 years now.....

Guess why.
I have an engineer in my family working for another industry and he says its true that "his" industry hides inventions which would be of great interest for the markets but would minimize the profit of the industry. I would be surprised if that wouldnt be different in the car industry.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 84):
"greedy" oil companies

To put the word "greedy" in quotes in front of "oil companies" is a joke, isnt it? Exxon, 16 billion profit in 2012, Shell 6 billion in the last Quarter, absolutely fair or cause, not greedy at all and well deserved, and you love to pay the fuel prices, you even ask for higher ones, sure...

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-12-01 04:16:46 and read 9442 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 74):
when the cars didn't sell well they laid off a lot people.

There are 3 Karmas in the very small town I live in, surprising considering the price which is well north of 1 million NOK.

Quoting mayor (Reply 82):
Nader said later that the reason he picked on the Corvair was that GM was a bigger target.

I always though the Corvair was a very attractive car, especially the Coupe and Convertible. Probably one of the most attractive cars ever built in the US.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-01 08:44:30 and read 9412 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 75):
a guy turned around and yelled at us saying "you guys are wrong, this is going to turn our economy around and it will be like a new industrial revolution". I would love to run into that guy and ask him what he thinks now that A123, after getting money from the Feds and the state, is bankrupt and living on investments from the Chinese.

That would be funny to meet that character now. I'm sure you'll be able to find him next spring when it warms up at an Occupy Wall Street rally.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 76):
Ford Fairlanes, Chrysler 300s, and Chevy Impalas all looked pretty similar.

My favorite cars from the 1950s would be the 1958 Edsel convertible, Ford Skyliner, Mercury Turnpike Cruiser, Lincoln Mark II and the 1958 Lincoln Continental.
1958 was a good looking year for Ford/Mercury/Edsel/Lincoln/Continental.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 76):
The Edsel was different, but not in a good way.

Although I'm not crazy about cars of the 1950s, I think the 1958 Edsel is the best looking one.
I'll take one over a '57 Chevy ANYDAY! Never understood what was so special about the '57 Chevy.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 77):
You guys should be proud of what you've done

  

Quoting MrChips (Reply 77):
not kick it around like some kind of political football.

Well it is a political football.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 86):
It would be like Boeing or Airbus keeping us all in suspense touting their new commercial airliner would be like nothing we've ever seen before but then when it makes it's debut looks like much of what's already flying

Kinda like the 787.

Quoting na (Reply 88):
To put the word "greedy" in quotes in front of "oil companies" is a joke, isnt it? Exxon, 16 billion profit in 2012, Shell 6 billion in the last Quarter, absolutely fair or cause, not greedy at all and well deserved, and you love to pay the fuel prices, you even ask for higher ones, sure...

Yet the US government takes in 48 cents for every 2 cents the oil companies make in profits. So tell please tell us who's greedy again?

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-01 08:59:08 and read 9405 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 90):
My favorite cars from the 1950s would be the 1958 Edsel convertible, Ford Skyliner, Mercury Turnpike Cruiser, Lincoln Mark II and the 1958 Lincoln Continental.
1958 was a good looking year for Ford/Mercury/Edsel/Lincoln/Continental.

My dad used to have a '59 Continental......black.....just a huge car. My first car was a '62 Mercury Monterey, 2 dr hardtop with a 3 speed on the column. Lately I've liked how the '55-'56 Fords and Mercurys looked.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 90):
Yet the US government takes in 48 cents for every 2 cents the oil companies make in profits. So tell please tell us who's greedy again?

Good grief........that's a tax rate of, well it's more than I can calculate.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-01 09:25:08 and read 9401 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 91):
My dad used to have a '59 Continental......black.....just a huge car. My first car was a '62 Mercury Monterey, 2 dr hardtop with a 3 speed on the column.

You and your family have great taste in cars.  
Quoting mayor (Reply 91):
Lately I've liked how the '55-'56 Fords and Mercurys looked.

Same here.

Quoting mayor (Reply 91):
Good grief........that's a tax rate of, well it's more than I can calculate.

Lots of tax money that goes to the government to pay for all the goodies and handouts to their constituents.
It's funny how global warming alarmist like to throw around the phrase "greedy oil companies". They have no clue what goes in to drilling for oil and how much money it cost to develop the technology that goes in to producing energy.
If the oil companies were so greedy, they'd fire all of their high-salaried engineers, geologist, offshore rig employees and just lay out a few solar panels and call it a day.

[Edited 2012-12-01 09:25:38]

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-01 10:47:15 and read 9383 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 90):
I'll take one over a '57 Chevy ANYDAY! Never understood what was so special about the '57 Chevy.

I liked the '55 better. I learned to drive a stick, driving my Aunt's 2 door sedan.




I learned to drive in one of these......


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/1963_Pontiac_Bonneville_convertible_front.jpg

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-12-01 11:24:42 and read 9379 times.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 84):
like those carburetors from the 60's that will get a full size Cadillac 150 MPG ?

Those were still around in the 1980s. Maybe they were left over stock J.C. Whitney had those tiny 1bbl carbs you could put on anything, including a big block Caddy. I never actually saw one being used and I bet it made the cars run terrible before all the valves burnt from running too lean.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 86):
Did you ever get to work on Mustang II's with the V6 and V8?

Nope. I did do a water pump on a 4 cylinder one once.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 89):
There are 3 Karmas in the very small town I live in, surprising considering the price which is well north of 1 million NOK.

There is a dealership near my mom and dad's in Missouri and I have seen a few around. I bet most of the people who buy them are techies not greenies. I can see why a tech nerd would want one; cutting edge technology. I bet there are also a lot of people who buy them because they are unique and unusual.

Quoting na (Reply 88):
I have an engineer in my family working for another industry and he says its true that "his" industry hides inventions which would be of great interest for the markets but would minimize the profit of the industry. I would be surprised if that wouldn't be different in the car industry.

Getting insane fuel economy isn't something that is being hidden. The engineers I know work hard on it these days. One thing you have to remember about a gasoline engine is that if you run it too lean you will run it to hot and ruin it. That was the issue with those little aftermarket carbs that allowed insane fuel mileage. Too lean=too hot=burnt valves. Cars have become heavier too. If you were to take modern engines and transmissions and put them in some of the light cars of the 1950s and 60s you would have something special.

A couple of weeks ago my students and I wrote out a list of everything that the US government has required on cars since 1968. The list is staggering. Most of the developed world has similar standards and requirements. That stuff adds a lot of weight and cost to cars and light trucks.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: MrChips
Posted 2012-12-01 12:15:22 and read 9358 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 90):

Laugh all want, it doesn't change the fact that the Volt is actually a very good car. I went into that test drive as skeptical as anyone could be, but after a day in the car, I was left with nothing but a positive impression. I find it totally mind-boggling that for the first time in their history, the American car industry has built a production car that is a true world-beater and all the media does is crap all over it.

It's certainly a better car than those slow, inefficient, unreliable, ugly, wallowing heaps of velour and pot metal that the Big Three used to pass off as an automobile.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-01 12:48:56 and read 9344 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 94):
those tiny 1bbl carbs you could put on anything, including a big block Caddy. I never actually saw one being used and I bet it made the cars run terrible before all the valves burnt from running too lean.

The fuel economy on the 2bbl versions of the Lincolns didn't get any better fuel economy than the 4bbl versions.
I can't imagine the 1bbl being much better.

Quoting mayor (Reply 93):
I learned to drive in one of these......

I am so jealous.   

Quoting MrChips (Reply 95):

If the Volt makes you happy, then I am happy for you.  

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-01 13:39:07 and read 9321 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 96):
Quoting mayor (Reply 93):I learned to drive in one of these......
I am so jealous.

Well, it was at a commercial driving school in Aurora. My first day, we took it out on the Illinois Tollway and he told me to step on it. It had a 421 in it and it scared me to death.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-12-01 13:45:58 and read 9321 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 90):
Never understood what was so special about the '57 Chevy.

Same here. It doesn't look that different than the Ford Crown Victoria, Packard Caribbean, or any number of other cars from the era. Some of the Chrysler 300s had way better performance, so those rank higher on my list.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 89):
There are 3 Karmas in the very small town I live in, surprising considering the price which is well north of 1 million NOK.

I'm not sure what the price differential in Europe is, but in the US they are priced only a bit higher than a Mercedes S550, so any technologically or environmentally inclined buyers (who don't buy a diesel or hybrid S-Class) who don't mind the extra weight, don't drive that much, and like a little more elbow room can probably be swayed without too much trouble.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 95):
I went into that test drive as skeptical as anyone could be, but after a day in the car, I was left with nothing but a positive impression.

It's a lot easier to like the Volt when you aren't writing the check to buy one. That commercial with the girl who wants to go to Hawaii makes me want to bang my head on the wall. The dumb bitch could have bought a Focus, thousands of miles worth of gas, and been to Hawaii and back already for what the Volt costs. At least she didn't say it was grounded to the ground...

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-01 13:54:31 and read 9320 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 97):
Well, it was at a commercial driving school in Aurora. My first day, we took it out on the Illinois Tollway and he told me to step on it. It had a 421 in it and it scared me to death.

Nice.
Look who else took a driver's lesson in a dark red, full-sized GM convertible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjAPRZgOMrQ

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: na
Posted 2012-12-01 15:55:20 and read 9283 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 90):
Yet the US government takes in 48 cents for every 2 cents the oil companies make in profits. So tell please tell us who's greedy again?

So what? Be happy that its not the other way around, dirt roads for you and Versailles-style palaces for the oil bosses would be the reality. How would there be streets to drive on if no taxes are paid?

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mham001
Posted 2012-12-01 17:45:23 and read 9255 times.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 58):
The Opel Cadet

Kadett. I had two of these, they weren't bad, in fact they were pretty sporting for the times. I remember one was built in W Germany and I swore the other S Korea but wiki says that couldn't be.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):

The Edsel flop was called the greatest failure in the history of the auto industry. Now we have the adventure of Government Motors' Chevy Volt. In the 2011 calendar year, "the electric car that runs on gasoline" sold exactly 7,651 vehicles; vehicles that cost the American taxpayer $250,000 each for a total screwing of $3 Billion dollars - that's according to Mackinac Center for Public Policy.

You look very foolish giving us year old Limbaugh talking points. Today, the Volt is considered a success and still on the rise. In fact, it outsold ~155 other models so far this year.

Now that it has racked up 100 MILLLION electric miles (http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electric-car.html?cmp=OLA_BRAND_6281040_51564413) using no foreign oil and topped customer satisfaction 2 years running, how creative can you be thinking up new reasons to hate? Or will you wait for Limbaugh to tell you why you should hate it....

Quoting falstaff (Reply 71):
The engine was great, they used versions of it for almost 40 years,

Yes, it turned into a spectacularly successful engine, my favorite 4 cyl but didn't it have early head problems?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 81):
There's venture capital, private equity,

Venture capitalists don't care about US defense spending, they don't make money by saving the government money. The government does care, or should. If the government decides it is better for them to save money by investing in alternatives and convincing us to buy them, why shouldn't they?

OH yea, worst car currently sold in NA and destined for many worst lists- the cvt Nissan Versa.

[Edited 2012-12-01 17:48:24]

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-12-01 18:08:44 and read 9254 times.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 101):
If the government decides it is better for them to save money by investing in alternatives and convincing us to buy them, why shouldn't they?

If the military wants to power their vehicles with alternative or more efficient means, which would make their jobs easier, more power to them. Send out the RFPs and development contracts. Same for the postal service. Maybe if they used hybrids or CNG vehicles they could lose less money than they do. Their private counterparts seem to be plenty interested in such things.

If the government wants to set a minimum mileage standard for all non-combat/non-specialist vehicles they own I'm all for it. Saving everyone money is a great idea. What I disagree with is their setting mileage standards for what I drive and telling me how my vehicle should be powered.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 101):
OH yea, worst car currently sold in NA and destined for many worst lists- the cvt Nissan Versa.

The CVT Nissans are generally heavily criticized, not just the Versa. As far as worst transmissions go, the worst may be the Saab Sensonic. Early variants of Lamborghini's E-Gear (although Volkswagen has some of the best transmissions too) and the semi-auto gearbox in the original Aston Martin Vanquish were also not well loved.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: seb146
Posted 2012-12-01 20:17:22 and read 9235 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 86):
And I wonder with Edsel. Had the name been different, would the car survived and made it?

No. From what I hear, it was the grille that made it bad.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 102):
The CVT Nissans

To me, any Nissan is horrid to look at. They may be reliable, but I can't get over the look of those gawd awful things!

Which brings me to the AMC Pacer: I love the look and the open feeling of the Pacer. But, in 1977, my dad had to do a tune up on one of those things. We spent all day and half the night at my parent's friends' house just figureing out the plugs! That was where and when I learned the true extent of the English language from a man who never ever took the Lord's name in vain.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-01 20:49:24 and read 9236 times.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 103):
Which brings me to the AMC Pacer: I love the look and the open feeling of the Pacer. But, in 1977, my dad had to do a tune up on one of those things. We spent all day and half the night at my parent's friends' house just figureing out the plugs!

Supposedly, the '78-'79 Chevy Monza GT was pretty bad, too. It was said that in the V-8 model that to change the rearmost plugs on each side, that the engine mounts had to be loosened and the car jacked up so you could get to the plugs.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 101):
Kadett. I had two of these, they weren't bad, in fact they were pretty sporting for the times. I remember one was built in W Germany and I swore the other S Korea but wiki says that couldn't be.

If I'm not mistaken, the late 80's version of the Pontiac LeMans was built in South Korea, but it was a copy of the Kadett. Here's what Wiki has to say:

"The Pontiac LeMans was a subcompact car Daewoo LeMans manufactured by Daewoo Motors in South Korea between 1986 and 1994, sold as a captive import, primarily in the North American market until 1993.

Three bodystyles were offered, consisting of a three-door hatchback, a four-door sedan and a five-door hatchback. For the key North American market the three- and four-door models were offered only.

The LeMans took its underpinnings from a European Opel design. In the case of the LeMans, the GM T platform-based Opel Kadett E was the donor vehicle—badge engineered in the form of the LeMans, and later the facelifted Daewoo Cielo. In markets outside of South Korea, the car bore the Asüna GT, Asüna SE, Daewoo 1.5i, Daewoo Fantasy, Daewoo Pointer, Daewoo Racer, and Passport Optima names.

This model was sold in New Zealand under the Pontiac LeMans name."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_LeMans#1988.E2.80.931993

Quoting mham001 (Reply 101):
(http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electric-car.html?cmp=OLA_BRAND_6281040_51564413)

Couldn't find a source that was just a smidge more impartial??  

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-12-01 21:31:36 and read 9226 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 89):

   If you are referring to the "final generation" Corvair you and I wholeheartedly agree. The first generation Corvair coupes and convertibles were OK looking, was not a fan of the rounded 4 door of generation 1. Nader was and is a pain in the you know what.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 90):
My favorite cars from the 1950s would be the 1958 Edsel convertible, Ford Skyliner, Mercury Turnpike Cruiser, Lincoln Mark II and the 1958 Lincoln Continental.
1958 was a good looking year for Ford/Mercury/Edsel/Lincoln/Continental.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I feel 1958 was a horrid year for auto styling from the General and Ford Co. I hated the bloated hippo look, the reverse angle windows etc. However, the Vette was a looker and the T-Bird was the "least objectionable" design to roll out of a Ford factory in 1958. Thank God GM only made the 58's a one shot deal. The Chevy's of that year were terrible looking. The Edsel, I actually liked the 1959 Grille. Still the same idea but toned down and less bombastic. Back then most of America was convservative and the 58 Edsel Grille was just too much, too big, rounded sort of feminine. If you Google 1961 and 1962 Edsel there are some outstanding concept sketches. Check out the sketch of the 1962 entry. It had the Edsel Grille but it looked sleek, aerodynamic and masculine/athletic.
If I hand a choice between the 58 Edsel, GM big boats, and Mercs I'd go with the Edsel by default. The worst of the bunch were those horrible Mercs. Regarding the Contintentals, as I get older, I appreciate the wild 50's Breezeway look especially the 2 door convertible but interestingly enough, the 58 Continental Grille was in your face, rounded and big like the Edsel. For 59 both Grilles went on a diet and fit their cars much better. Had Edsel gone with the 59 grille in 58 and maybe even threw in a breezway model it just may have worked. And from what I read if you got a depression era strippo version of the Edsel it's price wasn't that much out of the ballpark.

For model year 1958, my vote for best looking of the big Detroit iron was Mopar's cars especially Plymouth and Chrysler. DeSotos were sort of quirky overdone like Mercury and Dodge was still stodgy and old lady matron calling their car the "Mayfair." However the crappy quality made many Plymouth owners my dad included a one hit wonder customer. My dad never again went with a Chrysler product after his 1957 Blue finned Suburban Forward look wagon. Once the 1958 hippos were retired the General and Ford upped the anty and started making some decent looking big cars. With Ford, you still had those fugly ducklings for 1959 and the General beat them again but once it was 1960, they were neck and neck. Chrysler which for those three last years of the 50's were all the rage suddenly fell behind and their early 60's
ware was dated and looked like the stylists slapped them together. The Imperial was cool but Mopar was like Nissan/Datsun with ugly quirky models.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 103):
No. From what I hear, it was the grille that made it bad.

See my above spin on Edsel. And, the Edsel name sounded funny too. It was the perfect storm for failure.

What do y'all think would have happened if Nader went after Chrysler? In the early 60's they were the leader in poor quality.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-01 22:09:35 and read 9216 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 105):
Regarding the Contintentals, as I get older, I appreciate the wild 50's Breezeway look especially the 2 door convertible but interestingly enough, the 58 Continental Grille was in your face, rounded and big like the Edsel.

As I recall, my dad's '59 Continental 4 door, had ALL the windows (except for the windshield, of course) powered, including the vent windows. The doors were probably more than a foot thick, including the armrest, because the heat and a/c ducts were routed thru them, to the back seat.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mham001
Posted 2012-12-01 22:28:43 and read 9212 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 104):
If I'm not mistaken, the late 80's version of the Pontiac LeMans was built in South Korea, but it was a copy of the Kadett.

That was 2 generations later and fwd. That model actually won European Car of the Year. I had early 70's Kadett Rallyes, they had a 1.9l motor, rwd and scooted pretty good for the period.

Quoting mayor (Reply 104):
Couldn't find a source that was just a smidge more impartial??  

It is the most accurate up-to-the-second source of oil-free miles driven. It does not include non-Onstar cars which means no foreign market miles are counted.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-01 22:59:55 and read 9209 times.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 101):

Where is this Rush Limbaugh nonsense coming from? I haven't heard a word from him on this topic.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 105):
I hated the bloated hippo look, t

That is what I expect for a 1950s era car.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 105):
Check out the sketch of the 1962 entry. It had the Edsel Grille but it looked sleek, aerodynamic and masculine/athletic.

I see what you mean.
It looks more toned down but looks like most other cars of the early 1960s. The 1958 Edsel is the most unique.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 105):
most of America was convservative and the 58 Edsel Grille was just too much,

Did people have their minds in the gutter back then?   If you've seen some of the 'worst album cover' photos websites, there are a lot of albums sold from this era that had many sexual innuendos that were unintentional. It was a more innocent time.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: vc10
Posted 2012-12-02 02:17:56 and read 9189 times.

Well being British and old enough to have owned most of the [British] cars being knocked on here so far let me give my opinion

Morris Mini-- Fun to drive and economical but it was quite unreliable with . Fuel Pump, Distributor ,constant speed joints
cooling by-pass hose not to mention the clutch. However cars were relatively simply then and if you had a set
of spanners, a hammer and a dry cloth you could fix nearly anything. Was it better /worse than it's
competitors, no about the same and that includes the foreign imports which were coming on the scene at that
time. Most of those did not have to worry about passing the MOT as they had rotted away before the test
was due

Ford Cortina-- Required when family on the way so bought an estate version . Nice car and roomy but corrosion was a
problem, especially around the headlights and at the top of the front suspensions mounts

Morris Marina-- Replaced the Cortina with a 1.8 Marina estate. Never had the sporty image that the Cortina acquired, but
did not corrode, never let me down and by then took the two kids and the dog for holidays , which it was
designed to do rather than flash around racing circuits like Top Gear wanted it to do . I have to admit though the
torsion bar suspension left something to be desired in the comfort range.

Princess--- Very roomy car and extremely comfortable to ride in and again never let me down . Again not a racing circuit
car which is all Top Gear is interested in

Volvo--------Less said the better and although it did not rust the electrics were a nightmare

Rover216-- Kids all grown up now so bought a smaller car for economy as driving a lot on my own and so did not need
big car . Only time it let me down was in the fast lane of the motorway overtaking Lorries when the engine
just cut. Scared the life out of me as I had to find my way across three lanes of busy motorway with a
dead engine. When the RAC man arrived he brought the new part with him as he said they were always
going wrong. A spark enhancer [ coil] made in Japan

So I would submit that the British Car industry in the 60s , 70s and even in the 80s was no worse than most of the imports coming into the country at that time but what the industry suffered from was greed for today rather than investment for profits in the future . A trend which has spread across all of British industry in the last 50 years.
I do also accept that the unions of the day did not help

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-02 02:58:59 and read 9175 times.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 109):

I think the British has made the most beautiful cars to come out of Europe.
Everything from the old MG up to the Rolls Royce are gorgeous.
They do get a bad rap though. I've known of several mechanics to take a 70s or 80s era Jaguar XJ Vanden Plas and drop in a Chevrolet 350cu" V8. That way you have a stylish looking car that is reliable and easy to work on.
The Rolls Royce Silver Shadow, Silver Spur, Corniche and the pre-2004 Jaguar Vanden Plas look like palaces on 4-wheels.
Some of the most beautiful cars to grace the face of the earth.  

Even the Hillman Avenger (Plymouth Cricket in the US) was a lovable car.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2012-12-02 03:04:54 and read 9173 times.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 109):
Morris Mini-- Fun to drive and economical but it was quite unreliable with . Fuel Pump, Distributor ,constant speed joints

You haven't mentioned the sub frame, notorious for corroding leading to rear suspension collapse, I'm sure the metal received no more than a coat of primer.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 109):
Princess--- Very roomy car and extremely comfortable to ride in and again never let me down . Again not a racing circuit

Most of the moans appeared to be about cooling, the wedge shaped nose restricted airflow, in particular people who towed caravans with them watched the temperature guage soar. Never heard of much else wrong with them.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 109):
Volvo--------Less said the better and although it did not rust the electrics were a nightmare

Your the first ex Volvo owner of that era I've ever heard criticise their car., most appeared to be brainwashed by the appearance of safety given off by their armoured car. I found the 200 series very spartan inside, not to my taste at all.
My father had one of the 740 estates and whilst comfortable and reliable it acclerated like an armoured car. I had a turboed 940 and that really moved, but so did the fuel guage !! My last Volvo was a 850 and I felt it was a retrogade step from the 940.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-12-02 03:57:12 and read 9171 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 111):
Your the first ex Volvo owner of that era I've ever heard criticise their car., most appeared to be brainwashed by the appearance of safety given off by their armoured car.

The V70 is the best car that we have ever owned, when the kids are out of child seats (couldn't fir 3 child seats in the V70 so had to sell it) I'll buy another one, or whatever Volvo has replaced it with.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-02 07:34:09 and read 9138 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 112):

At least it no longer looks like the box it was shipped in!  
Quoting mham001 (Reply 107):
It does not include non-Onstar cars which means no foreign market miles are counted.

This may be considered nit-picking, but ALL of GM's cars are now non-Onstar. They've gone to a different system.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: na
Posted 2012-12-02 09:27:38 and read 9107 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 110):
I think the British has made the most beautiful cars to come out of Europe.

I must agree, though the Italians are close rivals. Not all cars from the UK are great of cause, as the British also built some truly awful and bad ones, but overall, they made the most interesting, and still do. To one day own a classic Rolls or Bentley, Silver Shadow or older, is a dream I´m saving for. Those interiors are second to none.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 112):
or whatever Volvo

I must say the Chinese are doing pretty well with Volvo, their cars are indeed becoming more attractive lately.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-12-02 10:12:19 and read 9095 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 75):
I would love to run into that guy and ask him what he thinks now that A123, after getting money from the Feds and the state, is bankrupt and living on investments from the Chinese.

It makes me wonder why "the Chinese" find the money for such long-term plays yet it seems no Americans have/do.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-12-02 10:26:27 and read 9096 times.

Quoting na (Reply 114):
I must say the Chinese are doing pretty well with Volvo, their cars are indeed becoming more attractive lately.

The Chinese aren't really much involved in current Volvo's, the latest designs S/V60/V40 were all developed under Fords ownership, the first Volvo developed under Chinese control will be the S80 or XC90 replacement.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-02 21:45:39 and read 9019 times.

Just for the heck of it, here's some pics of the cars I was talking about:



http://www.salguod.net/photos/2010_arthritis_foundation_show/1959_lincoln_mark_iv.jpg


1959 Lincoln Continental



http://www.collectormotors.com/cars_sold/montcl/02.jpg



1955 Mercury Montclair






1956 Mercury Montclair (4 door)

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-12-03 12:08:55 and read 8907 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
It's a lot easier to like the Volt when you aren't writing the check to buy one.

It isn't bad if you lease one, from what I hear.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
The dumb bitch could have bought a Focus

Or a Chevy Cruze

Quoting mayor (Reply 104):
Supposedly, the '78-'79 Chevy Monza GT was pretty bad, too. It was said that in the V-8 model that to change the rearmost plugs on each side, that the engine mounts had to be loosened and the car jacked up so you could get to the plugs.

I have heard that froma lot of people, their their sub frames all rotted away before I ever got a chance to work on one.

Quoting mayor (Reply 104):
The Pontiac LeMans was a subcompact car Daewoo LeMans manufactured by Daewoo Motors in South Korea between 1986 and 1994, sold as a captive import, primarily in the North American market until 1993.

Those were turds... But they didn't look too bad. I used to see them around a lot. I once wrote a paper of GMs Korean imports when I was in college.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 108):
Where is this Rush Limbaugh nonsense coming from? I haven't heard a word from him on this topic.

I listen to Rush on a regular basis and I think a lot of things attributed to him were never said, at least by him. I don't listen to every single second of the show, but hear enough to know that a lot of people make things up about him. I am always amazed how many people who don't listen to Rush know what he says. How do you know what the man really says if you never listen to the show.

I do know that Rush has bad mouthed the Volt and did say some things that just weren't true. I was listening to him one day and he was mentioning that the car could only go 40 miles before it ran out of electricity. He did not say anything about the regular engine kicking in and you keep driving. He made it sound like it just died when the battery was exhausted. I have heard him knock other electric cars too, so it would appear it isn't just GM he is knocking. On the other hand Sean Hannity has said good things about the Volt and Hybrids in general.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 115):
It makes me wonder why "the Chinese" find the money for such long-term plays yet it seems no Americans have/do.

They have our money.... What makes me upsets is the fact the the US government and the state of Michigan gave these guys money and tax breaks. Then they close Michigan plants and potentialy are going to move to China. Back when I was at the conference where they were bragging about A123 it was stated by the company that at that time most of their employees where in China and nearly all the manufacturing was being done there. So it stands to reason they had a relationship with Chinese business men all the time. So a US company did most of their work in China. They come to Michigan to get tax breaks and cash from our government, then sell out and move back to China when the business model doesn't work.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-03 13:00:33 and read 8879 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 118):
Those were turds... But they didn't look too bad. I used to see them around a lot. I once wrote a paper of GMs Korean imports when I was in college.

I rented the Opel version in Ireland in '86. As I recall, it wasn't too bad a car. I was more busy learning to drive on the left than whether the car was impressing me or not.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-12-03 18:25:09 and read 8806 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 119):
I rented the Opel version in Ireland in '86. As I recall, it wasn't too bad a car

I don't think they were all that bad to drive and the initial quality was probably ok. But as they aged they tended to fall apart more than some other cars. Getting parts for them wasn't always easy either. That is typical of imported cars sold by GM. After a few years it doesn't seem like they cared to support those things that well. I have had similar issues with the Australian Mazda sold in the US as Mercury Capri. I have never worked on one that wasn't junk and if it I needed anything more complex than brake parts it was like pulling teeth. I never find them in the junk yards and when you call the Ford dealer they tell you to call the Mazda dealer and the Mazda dealer tells you to go to the Ford dealer.


If we are talking about worst cars ever I am amazed nobody brought up the Dihatsu Charade (US market model). They sold them 1988-1992 in the US and I think I last saw one operational in 1995 or so. A lot of the models in the the US were EFI, but that was an option. The 1991 Dihatsu Charade holds the distinction of the last new car sold in the USA with a carburetor.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BarfBag
Posted 2012-12-03 21:31:37 and read 8796 times.

Worst car ? Every damn car made in India before economic liberalization in 1991, and a handful of cars since.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-03 22:33:13 and read 8784 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 120):
I don't think they were all that bad to drive and the initial quality was probably ok. But as they aged they tended to fall apart more than some other cars. Getting parts for them wasn't always easy either. That is typical of imported cars sold by GM. After a few years it doesn't seem like they cared to support those things that well. I have had similar issues with the Australian Mazda sold in the US as Mercury Capri. I have never worked on one that wasn't junk and if it I needed anything more complex than brake parts it was like pulling teeth. I never find them in the junk yards and when you call the Ford dealer they tell you to call the Mazda dealer and the Mazda dealer tells you to go to the Ford dealer.

Ford always seemed to have that problem with any car that they imported over to the states. Once they dropped the model and quit importing it, the parts and service would vanish. Just ask anyone that owned a Cortina, Capri, Merkur, etc.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-12-03 23:21:56 and read 8777 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 119):
I rented the Opel version in Ireland in '86. As I recall, it wasn't too bad a car. I was more busy learning to drive on the left than whether the car was impressing me or not.

There was a big difference between the European Kadett and Koprean LeMans in quality.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 120):
I have had similar issues with the Australian Mazda sold in the US as Mercury Capri.

That car was a Ford Australia design built around the Ford Laser/Mazda 323 mechanicals. Mazda had nothing to do with it's design and development.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-12-03 23:55:48 and read 8777 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 108):
Did people have their minds in the gutter back then?   If you've seen some of the 'worst album cover' photos websites, there are a lot of albums sold from this era that had many sexual innuendos that were unintentional. It was a more innocent time.

I believed we both got into a thread about bad album covers Some were so bad they were kitschy. In the 50's I feel most people were in the closet on something. But, outward appearances, facades were the all important thing that drove most people back in the day. If you were different, you were a Communist, Queer or a Juvenile Delinquent.

Back to the Edsel, If Ford Motor Company could have taken the 59 Continental minus that fugly big ears grille and put the 1959 Edsel face instead Edsel could have ridden into the classic elite instead of ride off into the sunset and the stuff of bad jokes.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8067/8232653813_ce11457950_c.jpg


Whereas the Edsel was saddled with that fugly Ford body with the reverse angle wing vent window. Ford and GM featured this hideous design in their '57 and especially 1958's.

Edsel Grille or

Big ears Continental Grill?

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: sccutler
Posted 2012-12-04 05:55:31 and read 8732 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 99):

Nice.
Look who else took a driver's lesson in a dark red, full-sized GM convertible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjAPRZgOMrQ

Classic - and I believe I see a Superfly comment (who else would use the Quad 8-track handle?).

---

My worst car ever was a Honda Civic - rusted badly (especially hood hinges and lower doors). My sister bought a similar Civic, a couple of years newer, and they had a completely different hood hinge design, much better and less rust-prone. Car ran fine when it ran, but often simply refused to do a fool thing, electrical gremlins. I know they got better, but it serves to recall that the Japanese manufacturers got the foothold in the US market by building adequate cars really cheaply, migrating to building good cars as they moved forward.

I also had a Vega, which was actually not a bad little buggy - although (full disclosure required) I bought it (a '74 GT) with a bad engine - connecting rod right through the side of the engine - and put an engine in it. $200.00 for the car, $300.00 for the engine, and I drove it for 3 years or so, selling it for $750.00 needing an engine (and that was my fault, I seriously abused it one bad day). It was comfortable, reasonably quiet, got great mileage and moved out pretty well.

Had a Chevy Citation company car, it was not too great, though it was a hand-me-down, had been seriously abused. Example: a new Citation V6, if you never ever ever add or change oil, will run around 26,000 miles before the engine finally uses up the factory fill and, if you ignore the oil pressure warning, seizes. Not bad, actually.

My first car was a 1961 Impala, 348 with a TurboGlide tranny. Great fun, that car was, but dear God in heaven, it used a lot of gas. TurboGlide was not anyone's idea of "efficient." You could (theoretically) push-start it, though, unusual for an automatic.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: na
Posted 2012-12-04 06:29:13 and read 8723 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 124):
But, outward appearances, facades were the all important thing that drove most people back in the day. If you were different, you were a Communist, Queer or a Juvenile Delinquent.

Not quite right. The Architecture of the 50s was the most boring ever, a few gems aside. No decade ever built houses with so little taste and lasting style.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: B777LRF
Posted 2012-12-04 06:45:11 and read 8731 times.

Worst car of all time?

Got to be something old, badly built, unsafe, fuel hogging and with hideous design to boot. Most 1950s/1960s cars then. The absolute winner is probably to be found in the former USSR, though the Americans did their jolly best to beat them at that game, mainly by embracing the worst of eyesores and incorprating "fake", as witnessed by this statement:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 20):
high-gloss simulated walnut grain wood applique

Pardon me while I reach for the bucket and have a second look at my lunch  

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-04 07:14:39 and read 8720 times.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 125):
Classic - and I believe I see a Superfly comment (who else would use the Quad 8-track handle?).

{Shhh}
Don't blow my cover.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 127):
Pardon me while I reach for the bucket and have a second look at my lunch

HaHa!
Well that's what was written in the brochure.  

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mham001
Posted 2012-12-04 09:18:07 and read 8700 times.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 127):
Got to be something old, badly built, unsafe, fuel hogging and with hideous design to boot. Most 1950s/1960s cars then. The absolute winner is probably to be found in the former USSR, though the Americans did their jolly best to beat them at that game, mainly by embracing the worst of eyesores and incorprating "fake", as witnessed by this statement:

Nonsense. American cars of the 50's and 60's were not badly built and were not unsafe for the period. Design is in the eye of the beholder and hindsight is not fair, even hindsight can change. Then there is reliability which should be a major issue. It certainly is for me when Im stranded or the car is unavailable in the shop.

A VW Type I fits most of your criteria, vastly unsafe, "unusual" design, built no better than anything else and only wins at fuel mileage. Not exceptionally reliable, #3 cylinder routinely overheated, its main redeeming factor was it was easy to work on and it was cheap.

Fact is, every manufacturer can be guilty. My last Mercedes was one of my worst cars. Reliabilty was garbage despite the cost factor. If we added a cost/reliability formula....

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-12-04 09:40:21 and read 8696 times.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 103):
To me, any Nissan is horrid to look at.

They made the mistake of deciding that it is wrong for mundane cars to look at all mundane. The result is odd looking, but otherwise average, cars. It's a bit like making washing machines look like stealth bombers.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 112):
The V70 is the best car that we have ever owned,

Volvos, especially wagons, are cult favorites not unlike Saabs. It's not a particularly small cult either.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 124):
Big ears Continental Grill?

The Chrysler 300G/H that copied it ended up being better looking, while the Continentals that came both before it and after it (the Entourage car) are much better liked.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 129):
Fact is, every manufacturer can be guilty. My last Mercedes was one of my worst cars. Reliabilty was garbage despite the cost factor. If we added a cost/reliability formula....

All of the great new toys and luxury features can be more trouble than their worth sometimes. That was definitely the case with my dad's Buick Roadmaster.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-12-04 11:24:49 and read 8679 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130):

Volvos, especially wagons, are cult favorites not unlike Saabs. It's not a particularly small cult either.

Damn shame being that the V70 was dropped from the US line up and they don't sell the V60 in the US either. The XC70 is basically the V70 but doesn't handle as well and isn't as comfortable.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-12-04 11:51:57 and read 8676 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 122):
Merkur

I always liked the XR4Ti. It was a nice looking car, By the mid 1990s they were nothing but headaches for their owners. I used to play a racing game on my IBM XT called (Lombard Rally) and the car you drove was a XR4Ti.

Quoting na (Reply 126):
No decade ever built houses with so little taste and lasting style.

I agree. My neighborhood was built in the 1950s (my house in 1954) and every one of them is rather dull looking.

Does anyone remeber the Sterling cars from the 1980s? I haven't even seen one in a junkyard in a long time. I used to live near a Cadillac dealer that sold them and had their sign up until about 1994. The Sterling was built by Rover, but I know they shared a lot of parts with Honda/Acura.



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 123):
That car was a Ford Australia design built around the Ford Laser/Mazda 323 mechanicals. Mazda had nothing to do with it's design and development.

That may be, but in these parts Ford dealers blame that thing on Mazda.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mham001
Posted 2012-12-04 12:41:40 and read 8653 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 123):
That car was a Ford Australia design built around the Ford Laser/Mazda 323 mechanicals. Mazda had nothing to do with it's design and development.

Wouldn't Mazda 323 mechanicals imply at least something to do with design and development? Wiki says so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Laser

Interesting history on the Capri though, I always think German. Ford imported this one to fight another Mazda. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury...Generation_.281991.E2.80.931994.29

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-04 19:13:25 and read 8608 times.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 109):
So I would submit that the British Car industry in the 60s , 70s and even in the 80s was no worse than most of the imports coming into the country at that time but what the industry suffered from was greed for today rather than investment for profits in the future . A trend which has spread across all of British industry in the last 50 years.
I do also accept that the unions of the day did not help

This used to go around, here in the states, about why the Brits drank warm beer. It was because Lucas made their refrigerators.  

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-12-04 19:21:14 and read 8607 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 134):
This used to go around, here in the states, about why the Brits drank warm beer. It was because Lucas made their refrigerators.

Lucas is also the reason why British manufacturers didn't bother backlighting switches. At night it doesn't matter which one you press: nothing happens.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-12-04 19:44:07 and read 8604 times.

Quoting na (Reply 126):
Not quite right. The Architecture of the 50s was the most boring ever, a few gems aside. No decade ever built houses with so little taste and lasting style.

Again it all comes down to taste. My feeling being most stuff built from the 70's on especially houses are horrid and cheap looking and quality. Most McMansions are laughable at best money pits at worst. The multi level "Neo Classic" architecture looks like someone was on a bad acid trip and had Saudi Oil Men big money to literally burn. Whereas some of the 1950's Mid Century Modern Ranchers are beauties to behold. If money were no object I'd ensconse myself in one of them with the big fireplace and built in furniture of course with a pool and built in "Hi Fi!" Superfly would love my media room with a mid 60's Zenith or Roundie 21" built in the wall Color TV adopted for Hi definition, and a vintage Saul Marantz tube amp, pre amp and tuner with a Thorens turntable and top of the line Ampex or Teac reel to reel deck. Sort of retro tiki ultralounge!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130):
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 124):
Big ears Continental Grill?

Take a look at the way the headlights are diagonally stacked on the 58-60 Lincolns. Especially the 58 looks like big ears.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: sccutler
Posted 2012-12-04 21:46:12 and read 8589 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 132):

Does anyone remeber the Sterling cars from the 1980s? I haven't even seen one in a junkyard in a long time. I used to live near a Cadillac dealer that sold them and had their sign up until about 1994. The Sterling was built by Rover, but I know they shared a lot of parts with Honda/Acura.

Remember? We lived them. My Mom had an 825 ('87), my Dad, an 927 (1991).

The '87 was beautifully-equipped, and smooth as silk to drive (though a little underpowerd). Nothing on it worked with any measure of consistency, and interior parts fell off with regularity. Rover were so eager to get to market with it in the US, they did not even bother tom move the hood (bonnet) opening handle from the right side to the left side. Really.

The '91, my Dad bought the week Sterling announced their withdrawal from the US market, and a fellow who had purchased it (for something like $36,000.00) returned it to the dealer and traded for a new Saab, I think. My Dad bought it with around 1,000 miles for $18k or so, as the dealer was afraid of being stuck with it. That one actually lasted well, and (other than programming the clock) was a pretty good car. It had the stronger engine, too.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 136):
Most McMansions are laughable at best money pits at worst.

I call it the "lots of sh*t going on" school of architecture. Turrets? Check. Twelve different exterior finishes? Check. Twenty seven rooflines? Check. Gas lights? Check. Not impressed.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-04 22:03:25 and read 8590 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 132):
Does anyone remeber the Sterling cars from the 1980s?

Oh yes. I good friend of our family back in Gary, IN had bought one of those new. Their other car was a 1982 Buick LeSabre diesel when they were new. After bad luck with both of those, they would eventually buy a 1994 Buick Roadmaster. It's still running till this day.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 136):
Whereas some of the 1950's Mid Century Modern Ranchers are beauties to behold.

  
Yes indeed but it would have to be the late 1950s Jetson era ranch style home.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 136):
a pool and built in "Hi Fi!" Superfly would love my media room with a mid 60's Zenith or Roundie 21" built in the wall Color TV adopted for Hi definition, and a vintage Saul Marantz tube amp, pre amp and tuner with a Thorens turntable and top of the line Ampex or Teac reel to reel deck. Sort of retro tiki ultralounge!

Let's throw a fondu party!  
I can also bring the Cold Duck and champagne fountain.  

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-12-04 22:07:52 and read 8590 times.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 137):
I call it the "lots of sh*t going on" school of architecture. Turrets? Check. Twelve different exterior finishes? Check. Twenty seven rooflines? Check. Gas lights? Check. Not impressed.

But built like sh*t and energy hogs. For the many folks who bought them it will be premature built in obsalesence. My two cousins both single and in their 50's and 60's with some disposable income bought two fugly McMansions next door to each other. As they get older schlepping up and down all those stairs and the inefficient HVAC are giving them some pause as to why they went that route. If I were fortunate to be in their financial situation as mentioned earlier I would have gone with a 1950's mid century modern rancher. Much less schlepp factor and better built. Thinking of my old age if I even make it that far. Again, if in their position I would hope this is my final move. The next move would be exit stage right in a pine box. Then, it wouldn't much matter.

BTW, how did the 1970's first generation Ford Granada/Mercury Monarchs fare in the car survey? They were a step up ride and equipment wise from their predessor the Maverick.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-04 22:13:16 and read 8583 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 139):
BTW, how did the 1970's first generation Ford Granada/Mercury Monarchs fare in the car survey? They were a step up ride and equipment wise from their predessor the Maverick.

The Granada, Monarch, Versailles is a popular punching bag but they are very solid and reliable. Also many gear heads use the the super-tough 9-inch differential rear axles for their Mustangs & Cougars.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-12-04 22:21:27 and read 8582 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 136):
My feeling being most stuff built from the 70's on especially houses are horrid and cheap looking and quality.

  

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 136):
Most McMansions are laughable at best money pits at worst. The multi level "Neo Classic" architecture looks like someone was on a bad acid trip and had Saudi Oil Men big money to literally burn.

I actually rather like McMansions. Ideally, I like something low, sleek and sprawling, but McMansions can be quite nice since they are usually new, have ample yards, plenty of open space over multiple levels and large garages. The one feature I find rather tacky is those homes that have brick facades but siding on the rest of the house, as if you can't see around the corner when you drive by.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 138):
After bad luck with both of those, they would eventually buy a 1994 Buick Roadmaster. It's still running till this day.

How many of the luxury features still work? My dad's 96 model had problems with the sound system, power antenna, and seat heaters while the automatic air suspension began working with a mind all its own. Also the Roadmaster had an anemic AC fan and was in contention for worst fake wood trim ever.

One thing was that you could always pick it out in a dark parking lot thanks to the green light strip on its gargantuan C pillar. That thing could completely hide a Navigator on the interstate.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-04 22:29:10 and read 8572 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 141):
How many of the luxury features still work? My dad's 96 model had problems with the sound system, power antenna, and seat heaters while the automatic air suspension began working with a mind all its own. Also the Roadmaster had an anemic AC fan and was in contention for worst fake wood trim ever.

Last time I saw them in 2009, everything appeared to be in working order. I was amazed that it had no rust after 15 years considering all the salt they put on the roads there in the winter.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-12-04 22:43:16 and read 8569 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 142):
I was amazed that it had no rust after 15 years considering all the salt they put on the roads there in the winter.

My dad's never had any issues with rust. Mechanically it was pretty solid for a long time of pretty heavy use, it was just the extras that started to fail. The "wood" really was laughable though.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-04 23:04:26 and read 8568 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 143):
The "wood" really was laughable though.

I know two Roadmaster owners of this era. The wood trim isn't an issue. My grandmother has one and the only thing I had to replace was a power windows switch. I like the large woodgrain panel that stretches the width of the car.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: TSS
Posted 2012-12-05 05:03:58 and read 8544 times.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 103):
Which brings me to the AMC Pacer: I love the look and the open feeling of the Pacer. But, in 1977, my dad had to do a tune up on one of those things. We spent all day and half the night at my parent's friends' house just figureing out the plugs! That was where and when I learned the true extent of the English language from a man who never ever took the Lord's name in vain.
Quoting mayor (Reply 104):
Supposedly, the '78-'79 Chevy Monza GT was pretty bad, too. It was said that in the V-8 model that to change the rearmost plugs on each side, that the engine mounts had to be loosened and the car jacked up so you could get to the plugs.

Both the Pacer and the Monza were designed around GM's aborted rotary engine. It would have produced V8 power from an engine the size of a pony keg, but unfortunately it incurred V8 thirst while doing so. GM's 11th-hour decision to kill that engine left both vehicle programs scrambling for an engine, any engine, that could be shoe-horned under their hoods.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 118):
I have heard that froma lot of people, their their sub frames all rotted away before I ever got a chance to work on one.

It is true, mainly because of Chevrolet V8's spark plug placement relatively far down on the side of the head and angled downward. In Monzas with Buick V6s, which have their spark plugs in a much higher location, spark plug access isn't a particular problem.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 124):
Back to the Edsel, If Ford Motor Company could have taken the 59 Continental minus that fugly big ears grille and put the 1959 Edsel face instead Edsel could have ridden into the classic elite instead of ride off into the sunset and the stuff of bad jokes.

You've just more or less described the Packard Predictor- http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1957-and-1958-packard-concept-cars1.htm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 132):
Quoting mayor (Reply 122):
Merkur

I always liked the XR4Ti. It was a nice looking car, By the mid 1990s they were nothing but headaches for their owners. I used to play a racing game on my IBM XT called (Lombard Rally) and the car you drove was a XR4Ti.

Ford really, really dropped the ball on that one. What they should have done was bring the full line of Sierras to the US, badge them as Mercurys, not "Merkur"s, and sold them instead of the horrible Mercury Topaz. Since "Sierra" sounds too much like "Ciera", they could have simply called them "XR4"s and restricted the turbo engine to the top level coupe version, the XR4Ti.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 141):
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 136):
Most McMansions are laughable at best money pits at worst. The multi level "Neo Classic" architecture looks like someone was on a bad acid trip and had Saudi Oil Men big money to literally burn.

I actually rather like McMansions. Ideally, I like something low, sleek and sprawling, but McMansions can be quite nice since they are usually new, have ample yards, plenty of open space over multiple levels and large garages. The one feature I find rather tacky is those homes that have brick facades but siding on the rest of the house, as if you can't see around the corner when you drive by.

The Brick-on-front-but-cheap-vinyl-on-the-back-and-sides look is emblematic of the design ethic throughout the whole house. Although McMansions look very large, their interiors are frequently compromised by soaring two-story foyers and giant two-story "great rooms" that take away valuable space from upstairs and make the aforementioned foyers and "great rooms" next to impossible to effectively heat.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-12-05 11:01:39 and read 8497 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 135):
Lucas is also the reason why British manufacturers didn't bother backlighting switches. At night it doesn't matter which one you press: nothing happens.

I always like the joke "what are the three positions of an English car's headlight switch? Off, dim and intermittent" LOL!

Quoting sccutler (Reply 137):
, they did not even bother tom move the hood (bonnet) opening handle from the right side to the left side. Really.

I have seen that on Continental cars in the UK. Most recently this past summer on a Peugeot.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 140):
Versailles

Which didn't sell that well, but was not a bad car.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 141):
power antenna

You need to lube the antenna on a regular basis, which is mentioned in the owners manual, but most people never did.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 143):
My dad's never had any issues with rust

Even around Detroit I don't "see" that much rust, but on close inspection I have seen many of them with rotted floors in the backseat.

Quoting TSS (Reply 145):
the horrible Mercury Topaz

Those and the Tempo weren't that bad of cars. I see more older Topaz and Tempos than the newer Mystique and Contour.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-05 11:01:59 and read 8496 times.

Just thought I'd throw this in. This is for those of you that always have trouble parellel parking your car, especially those 50s and 60s "barges"


http://s91.beta.photobucket.com/user...reel_-_51_Caddy_-_July_12.mp4.html

[Edited 2012-12-05 11:05:20]

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: TSS
Posted 2012-12-05 14:47:02 and read 8464 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 146):
Quoting TSS (Reply 145):
the horrible Mercury Topaz

Those and the Tempo weren't that bad of cars. I see more older Topaz and Tempos than the newer Mystique and Contour.

In fairness, no, the Tempo and Topaz weren't that bad, but they could have been so much better. Cinching up some of the fore-aft slop in the front suspension (particularly noticeable once these cars accrue a few miles) and dialing out the dramatic camber changes with suspension travel on all four wheels would have improved their handling immensely, and the availability of a more powerful engine prior to 1992 (8 years after the Tempo/Topaz were introduced) would have increased their market appeal.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-12-05 15:55:28 and read 8452 times.

Quoting TSS (Reply 145):
Although McMansions look very large, their interiors are frequently compromised by soaring two-story foyers and giant two-story "great rooms" that take away valuable space from upstairs

I like foyers and open space. Beats having everything closed off and narrow claustrophobic staircases.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 146):
You need to lube the antenna on a regular basis, which is mentioned in the owners manual, but most people never did.

I don't know that we ever did, although it may have been done at the dealer a few times.

Truthfully, there was not one instance where I looked at a car and said to myself "what this car needs is a power retractable antenna."

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: TSS
Posted 2012-12-05 17:20:29 and read 8440 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 149):
Quoting TSS (Reply 145):
Although McMansions look very large, their interiors are frequently compromised by soaring two-story foyers and giant two-story "great rooms" that take away valuable space from upstairs

I like foyers and open space. Beats having everything closed off and narrow claustrophobic staircases.

There's nothing wrong with having decent-sized foyers and open staircases; I prefer them myself. However, one of the defining design characteristics of a "McMansion" is a huge, two-story foyer that is wildly out of scale to the size of the house to the point that the space it wastes within the floorplan of the house makes the other living spaces closed off, narrow, and claustrophobic.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: luckyone
Posted 2012-12-05 17:55:02 and read 8432 times.

Quoting bohica (Reply 16):
Which was replaced by something even worse: The "K" cars.

My grandmother had one of those when I was young. I can still remember, distinctly, the sound it made. If you were outside when she came over you could hear it coming around the corner before she turned to come to our house. She replaced it with a Corolla in 1995.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-12-05 20:25:09 and read 8432 times.

Quoting TSS (Reply 150):
However, one of the defining design characteristics of a "McMansion" is a huge, two-story foyer that is wildly out of scale to the size of the house to the point that the space it wastes within the floorplan of the house makes the other living spaces closed off, narrow, and claustrophobic.

Having open space in a house does not mean that it is in any way wasted. Allowing a larger great room at the expense of a smaller bathroom or sacrificing a bedroom is probably a positive overall.

Personally, I'd rather live in a place with a lot of space I don't need and drive a car with no space I don't need. A Lotus Elise and a McMansion is a nice combo.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: stasisLAX
Posted 2012-12-05 21:23:06 and read 8428 times.

Here's my list, in no particular order

1) Chevy Vega - blown head gaskets, rust, worst build quality. No resale value
2) Ford Mustang II - Terrific seller, but truly an awful Ford Pinto with overwrought 70's styling.
3) Chevy Corvair - oil leaks, iffy handling in early swing-axle models, no heat with toxic exhaust, fan belts broke on a weekly basis. Strange "Corvan" variants.
4) Plymouth (Hillman) Cricket - it's a Hillman.... and you could hear it rusting and short-circuiting in the driveway.
5) AMC Pacer - underpowered, strange styling, too heavy to get decent fuel economy. Was supposed to be rotary powered
6) Scion IQ - drives and rides like a golf cart. Strange interior layout (three plus a half seating)
7) Smart fortwo - worst automatic transmission in recent memory, poor fuel economy for its tiny size, no resale value
8) 80's Turbocharged K-car variants (Chrysler Laser, Dodge Shadow/Plymouth Sundance, Dodge Daytona, Chrysler LeBaron, Chrysler New Yorker, et al). These models are rolling fire hazards - engine and electrical fires are common. I know from experience, my 87 Dodge Daytona almost "cooked" me at the toll booth to the Pennsylvania turnpike.
9) GM Diesels (entire lineup) - hand grenade engine - used in everything from the Olds Cutlass station wagon to the Cadillac Seville. Resulted in absolutely No resale value for these diesel powered vehicles.
10) Early 2000's Volkswagens (Jetta, Passat, Beetle) powered by the 1.8 liter turbocharged 4 cylinder motor. Ignition coil problems, exhaust problems, oll sludge issues, turbocharger failures.... the list is endless. Also, TDI powered versions due to exploding high-pressure fuel pumps (linked to the engine's incompatibility to American ultra low sulfur diesel fuel) resulting in complete fuel line replacement (at least a $6000 repair cost),,,,,,

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-05 21:40:51 and read 8425 times.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 153):
3) Chevy Corvair - oil leaks, iffy handling in early swing-axle models, no heat with toxic exhaust, fan belts broke on a weekly basis. Strange "Corvan" variants.

All things that could have been remedied, quite easily. The oil problem is mostly a problem with the valve guides, which can be fixed with bronze ones........the handling was only iffy if people failed to properly inflate their tires (should be less in front than in the rear).......fan belts didn't break, they came off (again, remedied with a spring loaded idler pully).....Then again, I know people that don't use the spring loaded idler and their belts never fly off.

What's so strange about the van and pickup variants? Not all that different than other pickups or vans, actually.


You've been reading too much FORD propaganda.  



All the rest, I defer to your experience.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2012-12-06 07:51:21 and read 8386 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 154):
What's so strange about the van and pickup variants? Not all that different than other pickups or vans, actually.

... of the era. It wasn't until the early 70s (Ford in '68) that vans adopted the more conventional front-engine layout.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 136):
The multi level "Neo Classic" architecture looks like someone was on a bad acid trip and had Saudi Oil Men big money to literally burn.

Come on Zippy, don't hold back; tell us how you really feel. 
Quoting Superfly (Reply 99):
Look who else took a driver's lesson in a dark red, full-sized GM convertible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjAPR...gOMrQ

Showing my age here, I remember watching that episode when it first aired on ABC.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 64):
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 61):
Also in an earlier reply someone mentioned the 1990's era Ford Explorer SUV. What was wrong with them?

Their tendency to roll over when a tire failed understandably turned a lot of people off.

But sales later rebounded after a year or two after the Firestone Wilderness AT recall. The Explorer took a much worse sales hit when the price of gas went bananas a few years ago; hence the warranting of the more CUV-type D3 platform-based model that's been available since 2011.

Quoting mayor (Reply 117):
1959 Lincoln Continental

If memory serves (from what I've read since I wasn't alive back then), Lincoln and Continental were actually marketed/treated as two separate brands back then (even though they may not have been). The Lincolns models were Premiers and the '58-'60 Continental models were the Marks III, IV & V respecitvely... aka the 'lost/forgotten Marks'. Judging by the name on the front fender, that's actually the 1959 Continental Mark IV in that pic. Nice pics BTW, even if they aren't yours.

Side Note: Zippy's posted ad pic in Reply 124 is for the 1959 Mark IV (standard & limo versions) makes no mention of the Lincoln name.

It wasn't until 1961 that Lincoln and Continental were merged back into one brand/car.

Lincoln did similar to 1958 approach in 1980 when it launched a 4-door Mark VI that competed internally with the same-size Lincoln Continental/Town Car sedan for 4 model years (through 1983).

It's worth noting that when the final Mark coupe rolled out in 1993; it was branded as the Lincoln Mark VIII and not (Lincoln) Continental Mark VIII like its predecessors were. Had the '58-'60 Continentals been fully acknowledged in retrospect; the '68-'98 Marks III/IV/V/VI/VII/VIII would've been the Marks VI/VII/VIII/IX/X/XI.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 132):
The Sterling was built by Rover, but I know they shared a lot of parts with Honda/Acura.

IIRC, the Sterling used a Honda Accord platform.

Quoting TSS (Reply 148):
In fairness, no, the Tempo and Topaz weren't that bad, but they could have been so much better. Cinching up some of the fore-aft slop in the front suspension (particularly noticeable once these cars accrue a few miles) and dialing out the dramatic camber changes with suspension travel on all four wheels would have improved their handling immensely, and the availability of a more powerful engine prior to 1992 (8 years after the Tempo/Topaz were introduced) would have increased their market appeal.

IIRC, the 4-cylinder automatics in the Tempo/Topaz shifted horribly; the '81-'90 Escorts/Lynx equipped w/automatics had similar horrid shifting. The only logical reason(s) why Ford waited so long to finally offer a V6 in the Tempo/Topaz was either to:

a. Force buyers to the larger mid-size LTD/Marquis then later the Taurus/Sable for those seeking a V6. It's worth noting that the Mustang offered no V6 engine from 1987 through 1993 either; only the 2.3L 4-banger and the 5.0L (aka the 302).

b. To offset any CAFE penalties incurred by sales of V8-powered cars (Mustangs/Capris, T-Birds/Cougars, Crown Vics/Grand Marquis', Town Cars, Mark VIs/VIIs and pre-'88 Continentals) that were still selling fairly well.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 124):
Big ears Continental Grill?

It sounds like you have more of an issue with the diagonally-stacked headlights more than anything else. That arrangement is at least partially responsible for the 'Big Ears Grille' you're referring to.

BTW, Buick used a similar diagonally-stacked headlight scheme on their 1959 models.

1959 Buick LeSabre 4-door hardtop (4-window roof):

http://www.carshd.net/data/media/7/1959_buick_lesabre.jpg

1959 Buick Electra 225 4-door hardtop (6-window roof):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/1959_Buick_Elektra_225_Riviera_Sedan_side.JPG

Note: both roof options were available on all 1959-1960 GM full/standard-size 4-door hardtop models.

For 1960, Buick reverted back to a conventional horizontal headlight scheme but keep the 'Big Ear' fender-fin-sweep.

1960 Buick Invicta 2-door hardtop:




[Edited 2012-12-06 08:14:40]

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-12-06 08:02:24 and read 8382 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 155):
But sales later rebounded after a year or two after the Firestone Wilderness AT recall.

True. That was a problem with the tires more than with the Explorer itself. Other than that they were pretty solid vehicles.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-06 08:34:07 and read 8370 times.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 153):
2) Ford Mustang II - Terrific seller, but truly an awful Ford Pinto with overwrought 70's styling.

????
All the above are GOOD things.
The Mustang IIs were some of the best 'looking' Mustangs.
I am a fan.  
...
Classic Mustang (by Acho Jun 7 2004 in Non Aviation)

http://www.mustangii.net/

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 153):
These models are rolling fire hazards - engine and electrical fires are common. I know from experience, my 87 Dodge Daytona almost "cooked" me at the toll booth to the Pennsylvania turnpike.

I was a victim - several times with my 1987 Chrysler Lebaron convertible. Such beautiful cars but unreliable.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2012-12-06 09:05:22 and read 8364 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 135):
Quoting mayor (Reply 134):
This used to go around, here in the states, about why the Brits drank warm beer. It was because Lucas made their refrigerators.

Lucas is also the reason why British manufacturers didn't bother backlighting switches. At night it doesn't matter which one you press: nothing happens.

Good old Lucas, the days when you could pick up spare electrical parts for your car from the motor factor at dirt cheap prices. Along came the imports and you suddenly found that that broken indicator glass was about 8 times what Lucas used to charge.

PS Lucas never made refrigerators   

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-06 09:07:10 and read 8361 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 154):
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 153):3) Chevy Corvair - oil leaks, iffy handling in early swing-axle models, no heat with toxic exhaust, fan belts broke on a weekly basis. Strange "Corvan" variants.
All things that could have been remedied, quite easily. The oil problem is mostly a problem with the valve guides, which can be fixed with bronze ones........the handling was only iffy if people failed to properly inflate their tires (should be less in front than in the rear).......fan belts didn't break, they came off (again, remedied with a spring loaded idler pully).....Then again, I know people that don't use the spring loaded idler and their belts never fly off.

I need to add that Chevy took care of any handling problems by having an IRS at the rear, much like the Corvette's, in the '65 and later models. However, you still have to properly inflate the tires.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-12-07 00:53:23 and read 8290 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 155):
It sounds like you have more of an issue with the diagonally-stacked headlights more than anything else. That arrangement is at least partially responsible for the 'Big Ears Grille' you're referring to.

BTW, Buick used a similar diagonally-stacked headlight scheme on their 1959 models.

1959 Buick LeSabre 4-door hardtop (4-window roof):
http://www.carshd.net/data/media/7/1959_buick_lesabre.jpg

These looked OK, though diagonal treatment it blends with these creampuff cruisers.

whereas:

http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Lincoln/58_Lincoln-Cntntl-MK3_DV-11-GG_01.jpg
http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/05-15-2012-010.jpg
http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/5-04-2012-010.jpg

Look like big "Dunbo" ears.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-12-07 10:31:42 and read 8239 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 155):
But sales later rebounded after a year or two after the Firestone Wilderness AT recall. The Explorer took a much worse sales hit when the price of gas went bananas a few years ago;

I worked for Ford at the time, processing warranty claims, in Dearborn. It was the blame game for sure, but one thing that was odd was the statistically there were less rollovers in the Mercury version. The age of the Mercury owner was some thing like 59, while the Explorer owner was 34. The Mountaineer driver also had owned an SUV or truck in the past, while the Explorer owner usually had not. It was a combination of things that caused the crashes, but a lot had to do with people inexperienced with the handling characteristics of a SUV. I witnessed the aftermath of a Explorer Wilderness AT blowout near Fort Wayne, Indiana that resulted in a death. The vehicle had rolled multiple times. I actually witnessed an Explorer blow a Wilderness AT at highway speed back in 2000, on my way to work. The driver handled it perfectly, no wild steering and the truck pulled over to the side of the road without issue.

I actually acquired some Wilderness ATs that were recalled and put them on my 66 Ford F-100. I ran those tires until they wore out without ever having a problem. I wasn't worried about blowouts I have had tires blow out before and can handle the vehicle without much trouble. Some people freak out and over correct which can cause a roll over.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 156):
Other than that they were pretty solid vehicles.

I would much rather have a Chevy Trailblazer than a Ford Explorer. Around Detroit there are a lot of high mileage versions of both and the Chevy rarely has the annoying problems the Ford does. The Fords seem to rust a lot more and are more of a pain in the butt to work on.

Back when I worked for Ford we warrantied a lot of 4.0 V-6s because of timing chain guide failures. I tell people looking for a cheap car to avoid older Ford Explorers.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2012-12-07 12:02:10 and read 8208 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 161):
I worked for Ford at the time, processing warranty claims, in Dearborn. It was the blame game for sure, but one thing that was odd was the statistically there were less rollovers in the Mercury version.

The Explorer was well established in the market many years before the Mountaineer first rolled out as a 1997 model; and hence, sold in greater numbers overall. The first Explorers were sold in April 1990 as early 1991 models.

While the tires on the much older Explorers weren't (hopefully) still the original tires they came with; many owners likely replaced them newer Firestone Wilderness ATs that turned out to be subject to the recall.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 161):
I witnessed the aftermath of a Explorer Wilderness AT blowout near Fort Wayne, Indiana that resulted in a death. The vehicle had rolled multiple times. I actually witnessed an Explorer blow a Wilderness AT at highway speed back in 2000, on my way to work. The driver handled it perfectly, no wild steering and the truck pulled over to the side of the road without issue.

Out of curiousity, did both those Explorers tire blowouts occur at the same wheel/tire; or did one have a front-tire blowout while the other had a blowout in the rear? That alone could influence one's immediate reaction (I'm not saying that's the only factor).

Quoting falstaff (Reply 161):

I actually acquired some Wilderness ATs that were recalled and put them on my 66 Ford F-100. I ran those tires until they wore out without ever having a problem.

If memory serves, the Firestone Wilderness AT recall only involved the 15-inchers and not the larger 16-inchers that were used on the full-size Expedition. My brother was working part-time at a BJ's Tire Center at the time of the recall and he saw a lot 16-inchers that weren't technically part of the recall being pulled off of vehicles and discarded.

How often do you drive your '66 F-100 BTW?

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: MrChips
Posted 2012-12-07 15:47:21 and read 8180 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 156):
True. That was a problem with the tires more than with the Explorer itself. Other than that they were pretty solid vehicles.

The tires in the Explorer were a problem, but the larger problem still was the tire pressure Ford recommended to make an already unruly vehicle handle and ride properly; 26 psi front and rear. At that low pressure, the tire sidewall flexed much more than it should have (generating lots of heat and fatiguing the belts and carcass), which can lead to premature failure, regardless of how good or how bad the tire is to begin with. The crappy Firestone tires only exacerbated an already bad situation.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-07 15:53:53 and read 8179 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 158):
Lucas never made refrigerators

But you get the idea, right?

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-12-08 09:31:05 and read 8096 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 162):
the Firestone Wilderness AT recall only involved the 15-inchers and not the larger 16-inchers that were used on the full-size Expedition

I remember sitting in a couple meetings about the problem and I am pretty sure it was only the 15s. I hated my job and left it shortly afterward so my memory may be a bit hazy on the subject.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 162):
The Explorer was well established in the market many years before the Mountaineer first rolled out as a 1997 model; and hence, sold in greater numbers overall. The first Explorers were sold in April 1990 as early 1991 models

The statistics Ford showed us lowly warranty claims analysts were for original equipment tires during the time both vehicles were sold.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 162):
Out of curiousity, did both those Explorers tire blowouts occur at the same wheel/tire; or did one have a front-tire blowout while the other had a blowout in the rear?

They appeared to both be on the front, the one I saw happen was on the front. I saw it happen on the Southfield Freeway on my way to work at Ford.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 162):
How often do you drive your '66 F-100 BTW?

I haven't owned it in a number of years, but I drove it almost every day. It was a six cylinder truck that was a 3 speed, but I put an AOD in it out of a '90 Town Car, to make pulling a boat out of the water easier. The truck was plain as could be; no radio, no lighter, no arm rest on the door and only a drivers side sun visor.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: okie
Posted 2012-12-08 19:57:29 and read 8054 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 161):
It was the blame game for sure,

I had a friend who was an engineer for Firestone.
He claimed that the issue was the tire pressure coupled with the left rear tire that the exhaust pipe and exhaust exiting in the fender well adding additional heat/lack of cooling to the sidewall.
I have never researched the issue whether or not the left rear was the most likely to blow out, just sort of took his word for it.
The only one I saw that was along side the road with a blown tire was the left rear. So batting a 1000 with a sample of one.

Okie

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-12-09 11:06:57 and read 8018 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 75):
A123

It's official, they have been sold to the Chinese. Looks like Michigan and the Feds wasted our money again.

I heard on the radio this morning that Fisker has stopped production and looking for more money.

http://www.latimes.com/business/auto...ash-crunch-20121207,0,753069.story

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-09 12:06:14 and read 8005 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 167):
It's official, they have been sold to the Chinese. Looks like Michigan and the Feds wasted our money again.

I heard on the radio this morning that Fisker has stopped production and looking for more money.

But, but, but, like, umm, what about all of those promises of jobs of the future and hope & change stuff?

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2012-12-10 06:42:32 and read 7956 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 165):
The statistics Ford showed us lowly warranty claims analysts were for original equipment tires during the time both vehicles were sold.

Fair enough but what was the sales ratio between number of Explorers sold vs. Mountaineers sold during that period? My guess would be that there were still more Explorers sold per model year than Mountaineers.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-12-10 14:25:29 and read 7924 times.

There were always way more Explorers. It was like 4 to 1 or so. Statistically they were both just as likely to have a blowout, but the blowouts on the Mercury was often non fatal. Age, driving expierence, and being familer with how an SUV handles is what made the difference.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-10 21:48:26 and read 7901 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
Yup it was a turd, but Renault managed to sell 5.5 million of them

Very cheap, and a disposable car if there was ever was one.

The Chevette Diesel was always on my list of cars to avoid back in the 80's. After having owned an American made vehicle, I have to say I will never ever own another. The other cars that come to mind when I saw the topic are any of the Chrysler products with a turbo charger. They were/are awful.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-10 21:53:53 and read 7899 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 171):
The Chevette Diesel was always on my list of cars to avoid back in the 80's. After having owned an American made vehicle, I have to say I will never ever own another. The other cars that come to mind when I saw the topic are any of the Chrysler products with a turbo charger. They were/are awful.

I remember using a friends Nissan "Stanza" (I think that was the model) on a trip to Florida once. It was an automatic and my overwhelming impression of the car was that if you stepped on the gas to kick it into passing gear, it just got louder but not faster.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 171):
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):Yup it was a turd, but Renault managed to sell 5.5 million of them
Very cheap, and a disposable car if there was ever was one.

And yet, I leased a Renault Twingo in the late 90s, in Europe and was pretty impressed with it. Put 3700 miles on it in 17 days and never had a problem with it.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Geezer
Posted 2012-12-10 23:18:28 and read 7901 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 171):
The Chevette Diesel was always on my list of cars to avoid back in the 80's. After having owned an American made vehicle, I have to say I will never ever own another. The other cars that come to mind when I saw the topic are any of the Chrysler products with a turbo charger. They were/are awful.

Wow ! I had forgotten all about the Chevette diesel ! Damn ! I didn't think the general public was even aware that they made the things !

My "experiences" with Chevettes was: ALL Chevettes were produced at a GM assembly plant in Wilmington, Delaware. I "back-hauled" out of that plant on hundreds of occasions, each time with either 12 or 13 units, depending on which truck I was driving at the time; Chevettes had ONE major "drawback", relative to getting them "onto", and a day or two later, "off of" a car carrier; the damned wheels on the things were about a foot narrower than any other car GM ever made, so they didn't quite "fit" certain places between our decks; on certain places, you needed to have the left side wheels, (the only ones you can see when you're backing on), exactly on the "edge", or the right side was sure to DROP into.........empty space! (and create one more dead Chevette) for the big "gloppa-ta-gloppada" machine that makes torn up Chevettes into instant "cubes"; (and this was all WAY before Nissan had "invented" my BELOVED Cube !)

I have a picture around here someplace of a Chevetski (as we sometimes referred to them as) sitting "on end", with it's rear bumper on the cement, and the front bumper pointing straight UP, with the front wheels resting peacefully on the hood of the tractor pulling the trailer which was involved in this "peculiarity" of Chevette design. (Fortunately, this particular "mis-hap" was not of my doing, I just happened to have a camera handy at the time.)

Now...........having NEVER even seen a diesel Chevette at the plant where ALL Chevettes were built, we were ALL quite surprised when our esteemed friend, (and one of the BEST car-haulers ever to have lived, one Theodore "Teddy" Mays) drove into work one Monday in.......his brand new diesel Chevette ! And get this; Teddy Mays was born and raised in a place NO ONE on this forum has EVER even heard about, much less ever been "to"; about as far south in Kentucky as you can go, without going into Tennessee; the thing is, Teddy occasionally drove down there on the week ends, now and again; this was one of the times when O.P.E.C. was screwing around with the oil prices, and gas was VERY high priced at the time; (at least we "thought" $1.89/gal was "high"); anyway, Teddy drove all the way from Cincinnati to "Podunk", down and back, on like 3 or 4 gallons of diesel fuel ! (at least he was averaging over 50 mpg), which would be almost enough to make me "snap up" a diesel Chevetski if I ever see one for sale, with less than half a million on the clock. FACT: Government Motors DID NOT build that diesel engine; it was produced in Japan by I believe, the likes of Subaru ? (or possibly even Kubota ?) No matter, because it's ONE hell of an "un-thirsty" little sucker", which will run, and run, and run, and probably still keep on running ! Last time I saw Teddy Mays, he had already racked up like 300,000 miles on his, and you wouldn't have been able to buy the thing if you offered him what he paid for it new ! ( and so far, It's STILL the only diesel Chevette I've ever seen, or even heard about; (until now); ( only on A.net ! )

Charley

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-11 04:00:55 and read 7877 times.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 173):
Wow ! I had forgotten all about the Chevette diesel ! Damn ! I didn't think the general public was even aware that they made the things !

I've seen a few still going in SoCal. I imagine those would get good MPG.
Let's not forget the performance version - the Pontiac T1000.
It was the sporty looking version of the Chevette....


Silly question; Can a Chevette owner claim that they own a 'vette?

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2012-12-11 05:38:57 and read 7861 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 174):
Silly question; Can a Chevette owner claim that they own a 'vette?

Only as long as they state that it's a Sh*t-Vette. 
Quoting Superfly (Reply 174):
Let's not forget the performance version - the Pontiac T1000.

Like the Chevette was for Chevy, the T-1000 was an entry-level car for Pontiac, nothing more/nothing less. If there was a performance version of the T-1000 (I don't recall); it was likely one trim level or option package, not the whole line.

One TV ad for the T-1000 touted it as the "New Penny-Pincher From Pontiac".

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-11 05:47:21 and read 7857 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 175):
Like the Chevette was for Chevy, the T-1000 was an entry-level car for Pontiac, nothing more/nothing less. If there was a performance version of the T-1000 (I don't recall);

I was being a bit sarcastic.  

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-12-11 06:04:35 and read 7863 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 174):
It was the sporty looking version of the Chevette....

The Chevette HSR was pretty cool looking.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-12-11 09:21:20 and read 7830 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 118):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 115):
It makes me wonder why "the Chinese" find the money for such long-term plays yet it seems no Americans have/do.

They have our money....

Maybe because they aren't looking for 10% profit next quarter and every quarter thereafter... Lots of things that used to be the basis of reasonable businesses have been shipped abroad mostly because the US investment market wants huge profits now and aren't willing to invest long term.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 118):
What makes me upsets is the fact the the US government and the state of Michigan gave these guys money and tax breaks.

What makes me upset is we don't have a national energy policy.

Quoting mayor (Reply 172):
I remember using a friends Nissan "Stanza" (I think that was the model) on a trip to Florida once. It was an automatic and my overwhelming impression of the car was that if you stepped on the gas to kick it into passing gear, it just got louder but not faster.

A quick look online said that the Stanza was replaced by the Altima in 1992, which is a pretty decent compact car.

Re: Chevette: My uncle owned one, and my cousin said if you ran over gum in the road, it'd stop! 

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-11 09:32:57 and read 7829 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 177):
The Chevette HSR was pretty cool looking.

Nah, I prefer the Chevette Sandpiper Edition.
The Sandpiper was the mascot of the elementary school I went to when these Chevettes were new.
It's the most dressed up Chevette of all.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 178):
Re: Chevette: My uncle owned one, and my cousin said if you ran over gum in the road, it'd stop! 

I almost bought one and it was so under-powered that gum could probably stop it if the wad of gum is big enough.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-12-12 11:13:01 and read 7772 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 177):
The Chevette HSR was pretty cool looking.

I don't think model was ever sold in the US. I never saw one and I have seen a lot of Chevettes.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 179):
I prefer the Chevette Sandpiper Edition

I would like the Scooter model. That is the one with no backseat. I once had the opportunity to drive a 1983 Chevette Scooter and thought it was terrible, compared to the 85 Buick Riviera I was driving at the time. Now I would love to have that Chevette; it was so sad and pitiful it is cool. That little scooter was 4 speed, radio delete car. So pitiful!

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: IH8BY
Posted 2012-12-12 11:24:45 and read 7768 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 180):

I don't think model was ever sold in the US. I never saw one and I have seen a lot of Chevettes.

The car in the picture is a Vauxhall Chevette (UK market) rather than a Chevy. Judging by the quite serious body kit on the car I'd say this model looks like a production basis (homologation special) for a rally version...

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-12 11:49:58 and read 7757 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 180):
Now I would love to have that Chevette; it was so sad and pitiful it is cool. That little scooter was 4 speed, radio delete car. So pitiful!

My aunt bought one of those Chevettes in 1976 when they first came out. She had it for only one year then bought a 1977 Pontiac Grand Prix instead.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: sccutler
Posted 2012-12-12 12:09:50 and read 7752 times.

Y'know, I had a friend who bought a Chevette at the height of the 1979 "gas crisis" (which was really a sales allocation crisis caused entirely by government meddling in markets, but that's a story for another thread), and while it was no one's idea of luxury transport, it served very reliably and with reasonable comfort for over 150,000 miles, and required almost no repair of any kind.

Not a car I would have chosen, but his brown car (you can imagine its nick-names) was a stalwart servant.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2012-12-12 12:18:21 and read 7748 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 180):
I once had the opportunity to drive a 1983 Chevette Scooter and thought it was terrible, compared to the 85 Buick Riviera I was driving at the time.

Man, talk about a serious apples-and-oranges comparision.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 182):
My aunt bought one of those Chevettes in 1976 when they first came out. She had it for only one year then bought a 1977 Pontiac Grand Prix instead.

Wise choice; especially given that the '77s were the last of the large A-bodies.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 183):
Y'know, I had a friend who bought a Chevette at the height of the 1979 "gas crisis" (which was really a sales allocation crisis caused entirely by government meddling in markets, but that's a story for another thread), and while it was no one's idea of luxury transport, it served very reliably and with reasonable comfort for over 150,000 miles, and required almost no repair of any kind.

Not a car I would have chosen, but his brown car (you can imagine its nick-names) was a stalwart servant.

   Basic, economical transportation was indeed the primary objective of a car like the Chevette. By 1979, the car was around long enough to overcome any 'bugs' that any earlier model years may have encountered.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-12 12:23:12 and read 7744 times.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 183):
while it was no one's idea of luxury transport,

If you got the Sandpiper Edition, it was.  
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 184):
Wise choice; especially given that the '77s were the last of the large A-bodies.

Yes that was a wise choice.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 184):
Basic, economical transportation was indeed the primary objective of a car like the Chevette. By 1979, the car was around long enough to overcome any 'bugs' that any earlier model years may have encountered.

Of all the bad things I've heard about the Chevette, reliability wasn't one of them. They were solid cars. Just under-powered and not fancy at all.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2012-12-12 12:58:37 and read 7744 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 185):
Of all the bad things I've heard about the Chevette, reliability wasn't one of them. They were solid cars. Just under-powered and not fancy at all.

I remember when I graduated from high school, one of my buddies had a Chevette - only a few years old, but completely knackered. He just got a new(er) car and we decided to give the Chevette a Viking funeral. We took it out into a field, bringing every gun we could get our hands on, and proceeded to perforate every inch of it with deer rifles, shotgun slugs, pistols, rocks - anything. And finally we set it on fire and pushed it down a fairly steep hill - although it was nowhere near as spectacular as what we had hoped for.. Unlike the Top Gear Toyota pickup, it did not drive away from that.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-12-12 16:12:36 and read 7721 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 174):
I've seen a few still going in SoCal. I imagine those would get good MPG.
Let's not forget the performance version - the Pontiac T1000.
It was the sporty looking version of the Chevette....

They did get good MPG. Unfortunately, when you filled up the tank you increase the value of the the car by 50%.


Quoting Revelation (Reply 178):
Re: Chevette: My uncle owned one, and my cousin said if you ran over gum in the road, it'd stop! 

So true, so true.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-12-12 17:29:47 and read 7703 times.

I wish them the best but I don't give a rat's pattotty about the royals (pain in the you know what) I've already had enough of the hype.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: cptkrell
Posted 2012-12-12 18:45:31 and read 7694 times.

Hello guys and girls; been inactive for about a half-dozen years or so but couldn't resist this topic. Firstly, my two "worst" cars were a '63 XKE convert and a "72 Mercury Montego. Lemme 'splain briefly.

The Jaguar. What went wrong? About everything electrical. To be fair, the car had a bit over 15000 miles on the clock but was in pristine (visual) condition at purchase. Lights inside and out a bummer, fuel pump, starter, charging system, ad infinitum. Now the serious stuff: impossible to keep in tune (and even drove it across the bridge to experts in Wndsor, Ontario but with limited success) then finally after a couple of years a major engine rebuild. Curiously, no secondary driveline problems. Styling...impeccable, of course. Handling, great fun (when it ran).

The Montego, a 351 Cleveland Cobra , super neat-looking fastback GT in a dark psuedo British Racing metallic green (ordered WITHOUT the popular but goober viny top) BTW. First trouble clue was the dealer had a hard time unloading from the car hauler - claimed transmision problems. Transmission rebuild with1.2 miles. Then the a/c. Then the windows. Then the a/c again. Then the w/s wipers. Then the rear u-joints. THEN the rust! Broomed that baby.

Most of my other cars new and used (mostly American brands) over the years have been pretty damned good. I think some on the forum were reserved (putting it mildly) in their opininions of the then-new "05 Chrysler 300C when I mentioned I bought one for wifey. News flash; we still have it and with 145,000+ miles have sufferred only steering knuckle and front rod end replacements at 130,000. Oh, and a new battery last month. That's it except for regular maint. No rattles, no rust, no nuthin (although 16 spark plugs at a time are a bitch).

Relative to a few preceding posts: Agree with PHLBOS" Aztek vs Rendezvous comments. The Aztek is, of course, a styling embarasment, but the package and engineering underpinnings are quite good for that class vehicle. It's too bad that Wayne Cherry had such a say in the final appearance. I still can't believe the GM board approved that visual misconception.

dtw9's comments on the Chrysler K-derived mini-vans is pretty much spot on. I was at Ford styling during the era and it was The Duece who had no faith (or interest?) in the concept. His name is on the building(s) and he had the final say. In fact, the last I saw of that Ford project was when I visited Don DeLaRossa' home with Hal Sperlich to drive Don's DeTomaso Mangusta (he was selling the car, and no I didn't buy it) and Mr Sperlich showed me some advanced package illustrations. I think Mr. Ford had fired Lido at the time but can't totally recall. Anyhoo, Lido brought Hal and Don over to Highland Park and did the K and the rest is history. BTW, wifey had a turbo New Yorker K as a company car and only had electronics (instrument panel) problems.

Can't leave before mentioning Edsel. Lot of you guys hit it. Yes the styling was controversial. One of my big bosses at Ford Styling, Roy Brown, was the "chief designer" .Roy's mission was to intentionally make the car controversal as he
explained to us youing designers. He also alluded to some answers he has given as to the concept of the original grille and it does not relate to horse collars and/or vertical Oldsmobiles and I will let it go at that.

That the original styling was controversal did not help in a then conservative marketplace that was entering an economic downturn and with sales not nearing forcasts, the company rightfully chose to "tone down" the styling and use more interchangeability with Ford-line parts; witness the last 1960 model which was essentially Galaxy sheet metal with some unique stampings to allow the four vertical tailights and horizontal split grille motif. As others have mentioned, the economy went through a sucking spree; remember Packard and DeSoto went tango uniform during this era.

Hey, Superfly; good to see you still active in the car-game (I could have thought otherwise?). I used to be ashamed I was on the original Granada/Monarch design team, but after seeing some of the "new" stuff, I ain't so "unproud". And, your RIGHT! Those Versailles pieces are great for rods. We used those fat axles and rear disc brakes on many a tire melter.

My time's up; thank you for yours. Kind regards...jack

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: seb146
Posted 2012-12-12 21:31:39 and read 7671 times.

I saw a Mini hard top convertable earlier. I wanted to ram my PT into it on principle.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-12 21:36:32 and read 7668 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 187):
They did get good MPG. Unfortunately, when you filled up the tank you increase the value of the the car by 50%.

And when you run out of gas, the vehicle is officially "totaled"............

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 188):
I wish them the best but I don't give a rat's pattotty about the royals (pain in the you know what) I've already had enough of the hype.

???????

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2012-12-13 05:59:31 and read 7630 times.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 190):

I saw a Mini hard top convertable earlier. I wanted to ram my PT into it on principle.

Talk about a pot-kettle-black moment!

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-12-13 06:40:18 and read 7624 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 182):
My aunt bought one of those Chevettes in 1976 when they first came out

A few years ago I was at a conference at the GM's private museum in Warren, Michigan. They had a lot of first or last of production cars and some prototypes. There were a lot of neat cars in the collection, which unfortunately is open by invitation only. A lot of the guests were fawning all over the classics; like the 71 Chevelle and 57 Chevy. A friend and I were looking over the very first production 76 Chevette. It was a neat little silver car with ugly plaid seats. Some people were asking us why we were spending time looking at something like a Chevette. My answer was "You can't go to a car show in Detroit without seeing like new classics and Muscle cars, but when was the last time you saw a perfect Chevette?"

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-13 08:38:04 and read 7610 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 193):
with ugly plaid seats.

Hey watch it!
You know I love plaid seats.  
Quoting cptkrell (Reply 189):
Hey, Superfly; good to see you still active in the car-game (I could have thought otherwise?).

Likewise. I was wondering what happened to you.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 189):
I used to be ashamed I was on the original Granada/Monarch design team, but after seeing some of the "new" stuff, I ain't so "unproud". And, your RIGHT! Those Versailles pieces are great for rods. We used those fat axles and rear disc brakes on many a tire melter.

The Granada/Monarch/Versailles is under-appreciated. They were very reliable, solid, durable cars with lots of luxury features - especially the Versailles (1979-1980 model years).

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 189):
One of my big bosses at Ford Styling, Roy Brown, was the "chief designer" .Roy's mission was to intentionally make the car controversal as he
explained to us youing designers. He also alluded to some answers he has given as to the concept of the original grille and it does not relate to horse collars and/or vertical Oldsmobiles and I will let it go at that.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for Roy Brown.   

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-13 09:14:04 and read 7596 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 193):
plaid seats.

How can you not love these beautiful plaid seats?   

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/Rush8track/cadi1976devillemerlinplaidbluegreen.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/Rush8track/cadi1976calaismorganplaidbluegreen.jpg

This is from the base Cadillac - The Cadillac Calais.
Notice the absence of a rear arm-rest. These Cadillacs were really stripped down but you still got the 8.2 liter, 500cu" V8 and 133" wheel-base.
The most fancy interior for the Calais was the plaid seat. Otherwise the interiors were closer to a Pontiac or Chevrolet at that time which was vinyl or some dull fabric of some sort.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2012-12-13 09:42:53 and read 7591 times.

Quoting IH8BY (Reply 181):
Judging by the quite serious body kit on the car I'd say this model looks like a production basis (homologation special) for a rally version...

Yup this was the model GM in Europe rallied before they replaced it with the Manta.


Quoting seb146 (Reply 190):
I saw a Mini hard top convertable earlier.

MINI hardtop convertible, what the hell is a MINI hardtop convertible?

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: TSS
Posted 2012-12-13 09:57:39 and read 7584 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 194):
Quoting falstaff (Reply 193):
with ugly plaid seats.

Hey watch it!
You know I love plaid seats.

I love cloth seats, and if I have to live with plaid in order to get cloth I'm okay with that.

Mercedes-Benz has a long, rich history of installing retina-searing plaid seats in their cars and I don't hear anyone giving them any guff about it.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 194):
The Granada/Monarch/Versailles is under-appreciated. They were very reliable, solid, durable cars with lots of luxury features - especially the Versailles (1979-1980 model years).

Agreed. I'd even go so far as to say that they're the most comfortable cars ever built on the chassis that began life as the lowly Falcon in 1960, so that's worth something. Having lived with one for three years, my only complaints are that with the six they're bog-slow and that the radio and HVAC controls are too close to the driver's side and are blocked by the steering wheel.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-13 10:11:53 and read 7583 times.

Quoting TSS (Reply 197):
my only complaints are that with the six they're bog-slow

I forgot to mention that you have to get the 351cu" V8.

Quoting TSS (Reply 197):
the radio and HVAC controls are too close to the driver's side and are blocked by the steering wheel.

That is correct and a bigger problem for 8track tape access.
If you bought the model with column-shift, you had to put the gear in drive (or 1 & 2) to get your 8track tape in & out the mouth of the player.
If you're parked listening to music and want to change 8track tapes, you had to put the car in gear.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-12-13 10:17:48 and read 7582 times.

Quoting TSS (Reply 197):
cars ever built on the chassis that began life as the lowly Falcon in 1960, so that's worth something.

I thought that the Granada, etc. were built on the "Fox" chassis, which was also the platform for the Fairmont and also later model Mustangs/Cougars. I thought that was a completely different chassis than the Falcon, Comet, Mustang and Cougar (early versions).

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2012-12-13 11:11:58 and read 7567 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 199):
I thought that the Granada, etc. were built on the "Fox" chassis, which was also the platform for the Fairmont and also later model Mustangs/Cougars. I thought that was a completely different chassis than the Falcon, Comet, Mustang and Cougar (early versions).

The only Granadas that were on the Fox platform (which first rolled out 3 model years after the first Granada) were the '81-82 models, which was ultimately replaced w/the like-platformed mid-size LTD in 1983.

1981 Granada L 2-door model (pardon the after-market wheels, it was the only image photo I was able to copy-&-paste quickly):

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/4/390/3221/38474110005_large.jpg

The original US Granada indeed sat on the same platform as the 4-door Maverick; which dates back to 1960 when the Falcon first rolled out.

1975 Granada 2-door model shown:



The platform's final year was 1980. From that point on, all RWD mid-size Fords/Mercurys/Lincolns utilized the Fox platform.

Note: the original Granada styling was somewhat carried over onto the 1979 full-size Fords; see the 1979 LTD (base model) 2-door in the below-pic:



When my brother first saw one of these on the road (the base model, not the Landau); he initially thought he had seen a new Granada.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 198):
Quoting TSS (Reply 197):
the radio and HVAC controls are too close to the driver's side and are blocked by the steering wheel.

That is correct and a bigger problem for 8track tape access.
If you bought the model with column-shift, you had to put the gear in drive (or 1 & 2) to get your 8track tape in & out the mouth of the player.
If you're parked listening to music and want to change 8track tapes, you had to put the car in gear.

Clearly a major-oops in the design department. Given the fact that it (the Granada) first rolled out in 1975, I'm surprised that it didn't have the climate controls and radio more centrally-located like the full-sizes circa 1973.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 195):
This is from the base Cadillac - The Cadillac Calais.
Notice the absence of a rear arm-rest. These Cadillacs were really stripped down but you still got the 8.2 liter, 500cu" V8 and 133" wheel-base.

Minor correction: the '71-'76 Calais sat on the same 130" wheelbase as the DeVilles; the Fleetwoods of the era had the 133" wheelbase.

[Edited 2012-12-13 11:41:47]

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-13 11:38:51 and read 7563 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 200):
it was the only image photo I was able to copy-&-paste quickly):

I got ya covered.  
Here is a proper photo.


http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/Rush8track/5190974353_925ecee2aa_b.jpg





Here is the 4-door version.
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 200):
Clearly a major-oops in the design department. Given the fact that it (the Granada) first rolled out in 1975, I'm surprised that it didn't have the climate controls and radio more centrally-located like the full-sizes circa 1973.

They fixed that problem for the 1981 model year.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2012-12-13 11:44:45 and read 7573 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 201):
They fixed that problem for the 1981 model year.

True, but they placed the horn control on the turn-signal stalk that year; which was even more annoying IMHO. Ford wouldn't finally correct this issue until 1984 (1985 on the full-sizes).

I remember that ad very well when it first came out BTW.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-13 13:08:48 and read 7558 times.

Look at what went in to making a Chevrolet Chevette.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO6NsQg8EsY

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-12-14 04:29:54 and read 7515 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 194):
You know I love plaid seats

When I was a kid my parents and I would visit some friends in San Diego and they had a red 1970 Ford Maverick 2-door with plaid seats. Those people had that car from 1970 to 1988 and it was in choice shape all the way to the end. I would love to have one like it now.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 195):
This is from the base Cadillac - The Cadillac Calais

After the Calais was dropped the lower level models still could be had with the plaid seats. I have seen them in a couple 1977 models.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 200):
Minor correction: the '71-'76 Calais sat on the same 130" wheelbase as the DeVilles

I had a 1972 Cadillac Calais Coupe, but it has vinyl seats, not plaid.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-12-14 07:28:26 and read 7500 times.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 189):
Hello guys and girls; been inactive for about a half-dozen years or so but couldn't resist this topic.

Welcome back!

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 189):
Can't leave before mentioning Edsel. Lot of you guys hit it. Yes the styling was controversial. One of my big bosses at Ford Styling, Roy Brown, was the "chief designer" .Roy's mission was to intentionally make the car controversal as he explained to us youing designers. He also alluded to some answers he has given as to the concept of the original grille and it does not relate to horse collars and/or vertical Oldsmobiles and I will let it go at that.

The emblem in the top half clearly turns it from "horse collar" to "man in a boat" as far as I'm concerned.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 194):
I have a tremendous amount of respect for Roy Brown.

Clearly a guy who can follow his inspirations!

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-14 09:12:36 and read 7474 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 204):
When I was a kid my parents and I would visit some friends in San Diego and they had a red 1970 Ford Maverick 2-door with plaid seats. Those people had that car from 1970 to 1988 and it was in choice shape all the way to the end. I would love to have one like it now.

My aunt in Los Angeles won a puke yellow 1976 Maverick coupe with plaid seats on the TV show - The Price Is Right.
The Maverick is long gone but her house still wreaks of the moth balls she won on that show.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 204):
I had a 1972 Cadillac Calais Coupe, but it has vinyl seats, not plaid.

I remember you showing me the 8mm video at my house on my old Bell & Howell film projector.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 205):
Clearly a guy who can follow his inspirations!

After the poor sales figures, I'm sure people said he was thinking with the wrong head.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Geezer
Posted 2012-12-14 09:47:48 and read 7474 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 184):
Quoting falstaff (Reply 180):
I once had the opportunity to drive a 1983 Chevette Scooter and thought it was terrible, compared to the 85 Buick Riviera I was driving at the time.

Man, talk about a serious apples-and-oranges comparision.

I was thinking the same thing when I read that about a week ago; (more like an "apples- rice krispies" comparison)

Charley

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-12-14 21:42:56 and read 7441 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 191):
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 188):
I wish them the best but I don't give a rat's pattotty about the royals (pain in the you know what) I've already had enough of the hype.

The first year of the Granada/Monarch were really sweet looking for the times. And even the base model gave you some cool standard split bench or bucket seats. The following year Ford came out with a bare bones model with depression era strippo looking bench seats and trim and a less supple ride. The price was a bit lower but you had to pony up to get what you got as standard equipment in 1975.

Same thing more or less with the Buick Regal from 1973 tp 1974. Even the standard interior and seats for 1973 were nice looking. In 1974 the standard fare looked like the crap you'd get on a Chevy stripped down model.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-15 05:25:23 and read 7407 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 208):
The first year of the Granada/Monarch were really sweet looking for the times. And even the base model gave you some cool standard split bench or bucket seats.

That is true. There was also the Ghia model which had all sorts of cool luxury features that were found in the Lincolns, Thunderbirds, Grand Marquis and LTD Landaus.
The Granada and Monarchs were far more impressive vehicles than the Chevrolet Nova and it's other variants offered at General Motors.
GM had to do a lot more to dress up their Nova to make the Cadillac Seville. The Lincoln Versailles didn't need much of an upgrade because it was already based off a far more superior vehicle.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: cptkrell
Posted 2012-12-15 07:54:13 and read 7394 times.

Revelation; thank you. I've been spending most of my "spare" time repairing fences and working on an old Ford 2810 farm tractor.

Hey, FLY; wifey found an old newspaper clipping picturing me standing in front of a Granada at launch reveal, and you know, it DOES look pretty good considering the era. Please note that I was only one of many stylists on the project, and FoMoCo had each designer pose with the car and they sent individual "press releases" to all of our many hometwown newspapers for publicity. I think I'll frame it and hang it in my "planes, trains and automobiles" toy room.

Best wishes...jack

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-15 11:56:54 and read 7371 times.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 210):

Nice!
I'd like to see a copy as well.
You did a great job on the Granada Monarch Versailles.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-12-15 21:14:47 and read 7321 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 209):
That is true. There was also the Ghia model which had all sorts of cool luxury features that were found in the Lincolns, Thunderbirds, Grand Marquis and LTD Landaus.
The Granada and Monarchs were far more impressive vehicles than the Chevrolet Nova and it's other variants offered at General Motors.
GM had to do a lot more to dress up their Nova to make the Cadillac Seville. The Lincoln Versailles didn't need much of an upgrade because it was already based off a far more superior vehicle.

I remember the Ghia model. It was the big brother/sister of the Mustang II Ghias. I believe the Granada/Monarch beat the Nova and it's clones in Consumer Reports. Looks wise on a personal level, I liked the generation Seville lookswise over the Vesailles. It came out a year earlier and as I said earlier the only way the naked eye could tell it was a spawn of the Nova was it's hood. I have to give Cadillac/GM credit for transforming the Nova into a Caddy worthy car. Though I liked both the Versaille/Seville the Seville got it's own unique dashboard where the baby Lincoln kept the Monarch's side window treatments and it's dashboard. The second year of the Lincoln it did get it's own luxury car roof treatment but, the critics were luke warm over it compared to the Seville.
Interestingly enough flash forward to the early 80's and out comes the Cimmaron. The front drive baby Caddy did distinguish itself on the outside sheet metal but the dash was basically the same as a Cavallier of the day. Caddy should have made the Cimmaron look like the first generation Seville with some freshening up for the time. Then, maybe it could have done well and not be an also ran laughing stock.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-15 23:18:28 and read 7303 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 212):
It was the big brother/sister of the Mustang II Ghias.

True. In fact, if one was smart and checked off the option list properly, you could have a respectable Mustang II and Monarch. The list of options was a large as a mid-size city's telephone book.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 212):
the only way the naked eye could tell it was a spawn of the Nova was it's hood.

I noticed that immediately.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 212):
Though I liked both the Versaille/Seville the Seville got it's own unique dashboard where the baby Lincoln kept the Monarch's side window treatments and it's dashboard.

Seville HAD to have it's own dashboard. Just look at how cheap the Nova dashboard looked compared to a Granada.
The Granada was already a much fancier car from the get-go.


Quoting zippyjet (Reply 212):
The second year of the Lincoln it did get it's own luxury car roof treatment but, the critics were luke warm over it compared to the Seville.

That was it's 3rd year - 1979 and 1980 model only. The Versailles was the first production line car that came standard with clear-coat paint.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 212):
Caddy should have made the Cimmaron look like the first generation Seville with some freshening up for the time. Then, maybe it could have done well and not be an also ran laughing stock.

The Cimmaron should have been the Chevrolet Cavalier Classic.
It was a decent small car and giving it the 'Classic' timeline to the Cavalier would have been consistent with the 'Classic' being the top line Chevrolet.
Calling it a Cadillac is a joke.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: cptkrell
Posted 2012-12-16 10:52:16 and read 7257 times.

Not to beat this to death, but has anybody noticed that V8 Mustang IIs have specific front end exterior and inner "black metal" stampings, grille asm, etc? We at Ford called this the million-dollar Iacocca mistake. Lido was so sure that the V6 would be the ultimate "new" Mustang powertrain it was only engineered for the V6. About day one it was apparent that the small V8 was an absolute must and crash programs were initiated to accomplish this. The styling was the same to the uninitiated eye, but if you get the chance to see a V8 Mustang II next to a 4 or 6 you'll notice that you won't be able to interchange a lot of front-end parts after a shunt. Big overtime dollars for FoMoCo and pain in the ass for the parts department.

Friend Howard "Buck" Mook is credited with penning the Mustang II and his original sketches and renderings still look great. It's too bad that the styling concept flavor couldn't translate to a Pinto-based platform and proportions.

Regards...jack

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-16 12:08:42 and read 7245 times.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 214):
Not to beat this to death, but has anybody noticed that V8 Mustang IIs have specific front end exterior and inner "black metal" stampings, grille asm, etc? We at Ford called this the million-dollar Iacocca mistake. Lido was so sure that the V6 would be the ultimate "new" Mustang powertrain it was only engineered for the V6. About day one it was apparent that the small V8 was an absolute must and crash programs were initiated to accomplish this. The styling was the same to the uninitiated eye, but if you get the chance to see a V8 Mustang II next to a 4 or 6 you'll notice that you won't be able to interchange a lot of front-end parts after a shunt. Big overtime dollars for FoMoCo and pain in the ass for the parts department.

Wow, I learn something new every day. I always associated those blacked out areas as just styling cues for the sportier appearance package such as the Stallion. Could you get the dressed up secretary Ghia model with notchback yet with the V8?

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-12-16 12:35:11 and read 7241 times.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 214):
Friend Howard "Buck" Mook is credited with penning the Mustang II and his original sketches and renderings still look great.

Are any of those online?

My dad had a Mustang II and he loved it, but had nothing but bad luck with it, and that had nothing to do with the car. He bought it used, and put some money into it to get it nice looking, but then it suffered major damage on a hit-and-run (which he paid out-of-pocket to fix), and later it was totaled by someone he lent it to. That second event was surreal. I was driving around in a part of town I normally never go to when I saw a blue Mustang II at a service station. Grass, and freshly shorn branches were coming out of the grill, mud was everywhere, both sides of the car were bashed in, the windshield was smashed. I could not contemplate that it'd be his car, but the plate seemed to match, so I went back and checked it closely, and sure enough, it was his car. After figuring that out, I then got to be the one to call him and tell him that his car was totaled.

Oh well, it was just a car. Life went on. Lots of strange rumors about both incidents, which was interesting because my dad led a pretty unexciting life as far as I could tell and I knew him pretty well.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-16 13:56:33 and read 7228 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 216):
my dad led a pretty unexciting life as far as I could tell and I knew him pretty well.

No one deserves that sort of excitement. That sounds terrible. What about the driver?

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-12-16 14:07:39 and read 7223 times.

Driver and passenger were fine, thankfully...

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2012-12-17 08:20:22 and read 7170 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 213):
That was it's 3rd year - 1979 and 1980 model only. The Versailles was the first production line car that came standard with clear-coat paint.

IIRC, the '79 Versailles was one of the first vehicles (if not the first) to come with halogen headlights as standard equipment.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 215):
Quoting cptkrell (Reply 214):
Not to beat this to death, but has anybody noticed that V8 Mustang IIs have specific front end exterior and inner "black metal" stampings, grille asm, etc? We at Ford called this the million-dollar Iacocca mistake. Lido was so sure that the V6 would be the ultimate "new" Mustang powertrain it was only engineered for the V6. About day one it was apparent that the small V8 was an absolute must and crash programs were initiated to accomplish this. The styling was the same to the uninitiated eye, but if you get the chance to see a V8 Mustang II next to a 4 or 6 you'll notice that you won't be able to interchange a lot of front-end parts after a shunt. Big overtime dollars for FoMoCo and pain in the ass for the parts department.

Wow, I learn something new every day. I always associated those blacked out areas as just styling cues for the sportier appearance package such as the Stallion. Could you get the dressed up secretary Ghia model with notchback yet with the V8?

I have a hardcover book that covers all Mustangs from the original through the 2009 model year. In the Mustang II chapter, there is a photo of a '75 Mustang II Ghia coupe with the standard bright grille (note: the front plate on it bears the year 1975 in the stylized font that Ford was using at the time) and V8 emblem on the fender. That said, the bright grille for the V8 Ghias were likely furnished/assembled the same as the blacked-out V8 grilles.

Note: I couldn't find the exact photo of the one I was describing (light blue w/a medium blue half-vinyl roof) but here's one that's similar (note the V8 emblem on the front fender):
http://www.tocmp.com/pix/Ford/images/1975%20Ford%20Mustang-II%20Ghia%20Sport%20Coupe%20f3q_jpg.jpg

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2012-12-17 08:26:18 and read 7165 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 219):
Note: I couldn't find the exact photo of the one I was describing (light blue w/a medium blue half-vinyl roof) but here's one that's similar (note the V8 emblem on the front fender):

You know, the Mustang II was actually not a bad little car - it's just that it should never have been called a Mustang. You slap a Mustang badge on a car, and the expectations are pretty high.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2012-12-17 10:22:57 and read 7154 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 220):
You know, the Mustang II was actually not a bad little car - it's just that it should never have been called a Mustang. You slap a Mustang badge on a car, and the expectations are pretty high.

That was one of the reasons Iacocca went with the II badging. He wanted a car that kept the Mustang tradition (in spirit) but didn't overshadow the legacy of its predecessors... at least so he thought.

With the Mustang II, Iacocca was trying to return the Mustang back to its more basic routes ('65-'66)... before it got larger and had more powerful ('67 and later).

That said, what should've the Mustang II been called/named?

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2012-12-17 10:38:06 and read 7151 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 221):
That said, what should've the Mustang II been called/named?

Pinto was a good (and even related) name - presuming that the other, rolling bomb version was never made.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: type-rated
Posted 2012-12-17 11:27:36 and read 7133 times.

One of the problems with the Mustang II was that if you loaded it with any kind of accessories the price would skyrocket. In a showroom you'd have a Maverick selling for about $2,100, a Mustang II (well equipped) going for about $4,800 and a Thunderbird going for about $6,000. People would wonder why the Mustang II was closer in price to a Tbird than to a Maverick for such a small car.

When the Mustang II first arrived Ford stocked their dealers with "well equipped" (read loaded) Mustang II's and all the billboards advertising the car for a low basic price. Well, the basic cars were nowhere to be had. People that came in to look for a basic car left unhappy. Finally Ford realized what was happening and finally shipped a bunch of "basic" Mustang II's to the dealerships. Sales picked up then.

I always looked at the Mustang II as a "chick car". Maybe because they were used extensively on the "Charlie's Angels" television program...

[Edited 2012-12-17 11:28:57]

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-17 11:44:42 and read 7127 times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 222):
Pinto was a good (and even related) name - presuming that the other, rolling bomb version was never made.

The wagons were good because they didn't have the exploding gas tank issue and you could get woodgrain side panels.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 223):
I always looked at the Mustang II as a "chick car". Maybe because they were used extensively on the "Charlie's Angels" television program...

...and a very cool looking chick car.  
...

http://www.mustangii.net/images/ghia/silver_ghia.jpg

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2012-12-17 12:45:41 and read 7109 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 223):
When the Mustang II first arrived Ford stocked their dealers with "well equipped" (read loaded) Mustang II's and all the billboards advertising the car for a low basic price. Well, the basic cars were nowhere to be had. People that came in to look for a basic car left unhappy.

Sounds very similar to what's happened w/the current Mustang at many dealerships. The affordable (non-Premium Packaged) base V6 coupe (starting price at $22,200) are few and far between (likely requiring a factory order) whereas the Premium-Packaged Equipped V6 (which costs is over $5500 more than the base V6) seem to be more available in plentiful numbers. FYI, the base GT coupe starts at just over $30,000.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 224):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 222):
Pinto was a good (and even related) name - presuming that the other, rolling bomb version was never made.


The wagons were good because they didn't have the exploding gas tank issue and you could get woodgrain side panels.

The wagons (which were the best-selling body style in the Pinto line) were about 10 inches longer in back than the sedans & runabouts; which likely explains why it didin't exploding gas tank issues.

I mentioned this earlier (either further back on this thread or in another thread) that while the entire Pinto line-up was vilified by the whole gas tank issue (which impacted '71-'76 sedans & runabouts only); the Mustang II escaped such controversy.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: cptkrell
Posted 2012-12-18 06:55:42 and read 7014 times.

I apologize for not being more specific when I referred to inner "black metal" stampings (my reply 214). In the design/engineering community this term refers to the fender inners, radiator core support, etc. These inners had to be redesigned for V8 Mustang IIs as the original packaging would only allow I4 and V6.

PHLBOS; check closely the photo (your reply 219) of the forward hood cut on the blue Ghia coupe and notice how closely the F-O-R-D is sqeezed beween that cut and the top of the grille (we call this the GOP, or grille opening panel, which styled the same but is a unique part from the non-V8 models). Although difficult to see in Superfly's (reply 224) side view of the salmon colored non V8 coupe, you can distinguish this cut line is much farther back; a totally different part #. IIRC, we had to bulge the hood inner and outer a bit, too, but I'm a little rusty on that detail.

Haven't found any of Buck Mook's sketches, but I still have several unpacked boxes of memorabilia. Kind regards...jack

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2012-12-18 08:12:37 and read 7009 times.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 226):
check closely the photo (your reply 219) of the forward hood cut on the blue Ghia coupe and notice how closely the F-O-R-D is sqeezed beween that cut and the top of the grille (we call this the GOP, or grille opening panel, which styled the same but is a unique part from the non-V8 models). Although difficult to see in Superfly's (reply 224) side view of the salmon colored non V8 coupe, you can distinguish this cut line is much farther back; a totally different part #. IIRC, we had to bulge the hood inner and outer a bit, too, but I'm a little rusty on that detail.

Good to know. I'll recheck the various Mustang II pics in the fore-mentioned book I have to better view the differences.

BTW, this was the book I was referring to earlier that covers the Mustang history (with many photos) through 2009. I bought it at a local Borders store just before they closed for good.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-12-18 10:43:55 and read 6979 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 208):
Granada/Monarch

A buddy of mine worked on the assembly line, in Wayne, Michigan. He was the guy that puts the tires on. He was telling me a story about how one night he and his partner were seeing how far the car could get down the line and still be able to throw the spare tire in it. How the system worked was; both guys would put the tires on their side of the car and they would alternate which one would put the spare tire in the trunk. They didn't fasten the spare down, just put it in the trunk. They tossed about 25 tires into trunks before the line shut down and the foreman came and yelled at them for putting dents in the trunk floor.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 227):
Mustang II

Which is the kind of car my friend in the above story was driving when this story took place.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-12-18 21:37:15 and read 6926 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 223):
When the Mustang II first arrived Ford stocked their dealers with "well equipped" (read loaded) Mustang II's and all the billboards advertising the car for a low basic price. Well, the basic cars were nowhere to be had. People that came in to look for a basic car left unhappy. Finally Ford realized what was happening and finally shipped a bunch of "basic" Mustang II's to the dealerships. Sales picked up then.
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 225):
Sounds very similar to what's happened w/the current Mustang at many dealerships. The affordable (non-Premium Packaged) base V6 coupe (starting price at $22,200) are few and far between (likely requiring a factory order) whereas the Premium-Packaged Equipped V6 (which costs is over $5500 more than the base V6) seem to be more available in plentiful numbers. FYI, the base GT coupe starts at just over $30,000.



History repeating itself! Back when Mustang Classic the first generation rolled out (19641/2-1966) The cheesy advertisements of the day showed go go Austin Powers Carnaby Street type people in front of "Stangs" that were loaded but lauded the price of the bare bones stripped down model. And getting those bare bones models was difficult. Ford shipped the more equipped cars to their dealers. Back then things we take for granted today such as heat, seat belts, side view mirrors were all extra cost options!
You even had to pony up (get it) for that hi fidelity media of the day An AM radio! Push Buttons on your radio you ask? Well that was extra! Transmission wise it was three speed stick or 2 speed auto! Talk about primitive!

Back to the Mustang II. If I'm not mistaken Ford originally was going to use the Maverick platform. But the Oil Crisis and gas lines shrunk their vision of the new model. So, the Pinto frame got elected. For it's first year 1974 it was one of the best selling years for a Mustang! And this was with a tepid at best economy, and the concept of finite energy/oil a reality! I actually liked the lines of the Mustang II's. As a matter of fact I had a 1974 Ghia. Some things I wished the Mustang II should have, could have done.

1. In Model years 1975 thru. 1978 they should have kept the 1974 Ghia roof-line as well as the Opera Window model. They could have differentiated it by sport and luxury. Maybe giving the non opera window Ghia some of the sporty characteristics and equipment of the Mach 1.

2. As I said earlier in this thread; The Mustang II was really made for a stick shift. And had Ford incorporated a 5 speed, the car may have avoided some of the "worst car" status.

3. Ford should have borrowed and copied what Toyota did with their Celica in terms of handling and performance. Ironically, the Mustang II's disappointed on fuel economy which back in the mid 70's could have been the kiss of death. When Consumer Reports reviewed/rated the 1974 Mustang II they tested a basic 4 cylinder 4 speed stick without A/C and only managed to get 13 mpg!. For a car the size of a Pinto this was inexcusable. I remember my V6 Ghia Automatic with A/C averaged 15 to 17 mpg.
If I drove to Atlantic City (I-95 type roads) I could coax 20 mpg. but still mediocre at best for a car this size.

4. Technology: Behind the curve. Sadly efficient fuel injection was several years off especially in small American cars. But again, I defer to the Celica. It too was carbureted but performance was much more like something sporty and the mpg was better!

5. Build quality: Lee Iaccoca's's big thing especially for the Mustang II's 1974 debut was improved fit, finish and build quality over what Detroit rolled out in it's recent past. Sadly these cars were not total lemons but plagued with a lot of problems. My car had alternator problems from hell! It took almost two years of in and out of the dealer to get an alternator that didn't croak at the most
inopportune times.

I was never a fan of the 1979 through 1993 Fox platforms. 14 years of basically the same style overstayed it's welcome. How was Ford able to succeed with these Mustangs? I must say, though I didn't care for them, the "Fox" platform afforded more ergonomic
room for passengers and the engine choices. I wish Ford would have retained some of the Mustang II designs (save maybe for the Opera Window which by 1980 had past it's peek) Say what you will about the Mustang II but at least they looked more like
the Mustangs from 19641/2 through 1970. And, I was never a fan of Mustang getting rid of the horse emblem during the long Fox
platform era. Also, the stripped basic models of the Fox platform especially the 1979 and 1980 models looked really plebian. Even the basic bare bones early Mustangs had better looking bucket seats. The 1979 stripped Mustangs front buckets looked really cheap and felt cheap. And the round indentation for the manual window crank cheapened the car's interior looks further.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2012-12-19 06:59:36 and read 6900 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 229):
Back then things we take for granted today such as heat, seat belts, side view mirrors were all extra cost options!

I believe that heat was standard equipment for all cars by then, I think you meant A/C.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 229):
Back to the Mustang II. If I'm not mistaken Ford originally was going to use the Maverick platform. But the Oil Crisis and gas lines shrunk their vision of the new model. So, the Pinto frame got elected.

Actually, the two platforms were being planned/developed alongside each-other with the intent that only one would ultimately be selected. The decision to ultimately go w/the Pinto platform was actually made well before the infamous Oil Price Shock of October 1973.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 229):
As I said earlier in this thread; The Mustang II was really made for a stick shift. And had Ford incorporated a 5 speed, the car may have avoided some of the "worst car" status.

IIRC, manuals were available but only as 4-speeds.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 229):
For it's first year 1974 it was one of the best selling years for a Mustang!

It also captured Motor Trend's 1974 Car of the Year.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 229):
When Consumer Reports reviewed/rated the 1974 Mustang II they tested a basic 4 cylinder 4 speed stick without A/C and only managed to get 13 mpg!.

Something's a little off there. Most 4-bangers of the era (including the Pinto and other Mustang IIs) did better. Are you sure they weren't testing a 1975 model w/the 302 V8?

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 229):
14 years of basically the same style overstayed it's welcome.

Had Ford not initially & foolishly envisioned the '89 Probe as a possible Mustang successor; the SN95-based Mustang would've rolled out a few years earlier than it ultimately did in 1994.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 229):
I was never a fan of Mustang getting rid of the horse emblem during the long Fox

The '79-'82 models (except the GT) actually had the horse emblem in a red-white-blue circle located above the grille. The '83-'88 models (except for the '84 20th Anniversary Edition) didn't have the emblem at all. The '89-'93 had the tri-bar horse on the dashboard. Some Cobra models of the early-90s had the horse emblem back in the grille.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 229):
How was Ford able to succeed with these Mustangs?

Several answers:

1. GT, the slogan for 1982 was "The Boss is Back!"

2. LX 5.0, the powerful (for its day), subtle & affordable pony car. Many state police agencies (including CHiPs) bought these for pursuit vehicles (enclosed motorcycles IMHO). Such models offered to law enforcement agencies were a Special Service Package. The package was retired with the Fox Mustang after 1993. Any later-model Mustangs used by police are basically retail models.

3. Return of a factory-produced convertible model (in 1983).

4. Specialty-packaged models like the SVO, the Cobra, Saleen and a few others.

5. Basic RWD simplicity & reliability. Remember that many similar-sized cars were switching over to FWD at the time.

6. Respectible fuel economy ratings all-round. The 4-banger models could break 30 mpg on the highway.

7. Boxy design allowed for a more roomy interior (for its vehicle type). It was also a little bigger in size (but lighter in weight) than its Mustang II predecessor.

8. Stable & falling gas prices during the mid-80s and a President that wasn't so-regulation happy in terms of raising CAFE standards.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 229):
And the round indentation for the manual window crank cheapened the car's interior looks further.

IIRC, similar ones were used on the Fairmont as well.

My main beef w/the Fox Mustang was the turn-signal stalk-mounted horn on the '79-'83 models along w/Ford's insistance of continuing w/the 0-85 mph (0-140 km/h) speedometers well after many of its competitiors ditched it (late-80s-'93 non-GTs). I realize that for the first few years it was mandatory for all mass-produced cars (domestic & import) sold in the U.S. Today, we've since gone to the other extreme in terms of speedometer calibration; but that's another topic for another thread.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-12-19 07:08:34 and read 6900 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 230):
Several answers:

They also were easy and cheap to hop up. Back in the 80s and 90s 5.0 Mustangs were being hot rodded right and left. Even high school students with limited budgets and knowlegde could tweak those things to get a bit more power out of them. In the 1990s every issue of Hot Rod Magazine seemed to have an article about doing something to a Fox body Mustang.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-19 08:02:43 and read 6887 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 230):
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 229):
When Consumer Reports reviewed/rated the 1974 Mustang II they tested a basic 4 cylinder 4 speed stick without A/C and only managed to get 13 mpg!.

Something's a little off there. Most 4-bangers of the era (including the Pinto and other Mustang IIs) did better. Are you sure they weren't testing a 1975 model w/the 302 V8?

That 13mpg number doesn't sound right. The 2.3 liter 4-banger got about 22-26 MPG.
Keep in mind, the VW Bug was only getting about that as well.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 229):
I was never a fan of the 1979 through 1993 Fox platforms. 14 years of basically the same style overstayed it's welcome.

I disagree. They were great looking cars - especially the 1983 convertible.
(I like the front grille that year. Reminds me of a Chrysler K-car).

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/Rush8track/1983-Ford-Mustang-Convertible-02-800.jpg


The notchback Mustangs of 1979 - 1982 were sexy as well. I'd like to find one in Mustard yellow with yellow & brown plaid seats.



Quoting zippyjet (Reply 229):
I actually liked the lines of the Mustang II's.

The Mustang IIs are sexy.
Checkout this Mustang II fansite.

http://www.mustangii.net/

This would be my favorite looking Mustang II.
Dark navy blue with chamois landau top and matching interior with color coded aluminum factory rims and white wall tires. The only thing missing in this photo is the luggage rack on the rear trunk lid, hood orniament and power-glass moonroof.

http://www.mustangii.net/images/ghia/78_ghia.jpg
Put in a tricked out 351cu" V8 and you have yourself a stylish little rocket.  

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-12-19 18:12:28 and read 6833 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 232):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 230):
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 229):
When Consumer Reports reviewed/rated the 1974 Mustang II they tested a basic 4 cylinder 4 speed stick without A/C and only managed to get 13 mpg!.

Something's a little off there. Most 4-bangers of the era (including the Pinto and other Mustang IIs) did better. Are you sure they weren't testing a 1975 model w/the 302 V8?

That 13mpg number doesn't sound right. The 2.3 liter 4-banger got about 22-26 MPG.
Keep in mind, the VW Bug was only getting about that as well.

I specificially remembered that Consumer Reports auto issue from 1974. And they reviewed the Mustang. 1974 was the worst year when it came to anti-smog/pollution controls. Under the hood on almost any car from that year it was a spaghetti factory of wires, tubes etc. The Catalytic converter cars were one year away 1975. 1974 cars across the board had some of the most mediocre at best performance and lackluster at best fuel economy. I remember looking at the Mustang II's at Ford Dealers back in Spring of 1974. This was one of the first years of the EPA gas mileage stickers. They were crude back then and they featured a low mileage figure and the high one and it was highlighted with a horizontal oval. I kid you not, there was a 6 cylinder Mach 1 on the showroom floor and the mileage range was believe it or not 9 to 24 mpg! And this was a Pinto sized Pony car.
I believe on the Mustang II enthusiast sights there is a reprint of that April 1974 Consumer Reports article reviewing the Mustang II complete with that abysmal 13 mpg!

On a side note, had Ford made the Probe the next Mustang would this have killed off this venerable name plate or, would it have done quite well like the 1986 Celica's. I had a 1986 Celica 5 speed GT coupe I bought used for a song in early 1992 during the Persian Gulf war. It was by far my favorite car. It reminded me of my Mustang II Ghia and what could have been had Ford done their homework even better. Lee Iacocca tried hard and for it's first year the Mustang II was a hit but history was not kind.

And, I felt, the Fox platform Mustang should have at least gotten re-skinned and lose some of it's boxiness as the design wore on. I did however like the Coupes of 1979-1982 and the convertible a bit.


I do not remember the base Ford Fairmonts having that ugly manual window crank circle on it's doors!

[Edited 2012-12-19 18:15:10]

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-19 21:51:54 and read 6805 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 233):
I remember looking at the Mustang II's at Ford Dealers back in Spring of 1974. This was one of the first years of the EPA gas mileage stickers. They were crude back then and they featured a low mileage figure and the high one and it was highlighted with a horizontal oval. I kid you not, there was a 6 cylinder Mach 1 on the showroom floor and the mileage range was believe it or not 9 to 24 mpg! And this was a Pinto sized Pony car.
I believe on the Mustang II enthusiast sights there is a reprint of that April 1974 Consumer Reports article reviewing the Mustang II complete with that abysmal 13 mpg!

That is surprising. That defeats the purpose of downsizing if the Boss Mustangs from 1969 where getting about the same MPG, yet put out 4 times the power. The figures you list is about the same as a fully loaded Lincoln Town Car of the same era.
It would be neat if someone put a 1988-1992 Lincoln Mark VII LSC 5.0 liter V8 which put out 220HP and put it inside the Mustang II. Those got about 25MPG and were very powerful and has smooth acceleration.
It would make that Mustang II airborne.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 233):
the Probe

I used to work with a guy that was in love with his Probe and always bragged about his Probe to others in the office.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-12-19 21:58:29 and read 6805 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 234):
I used to work with a guy that was in love with his Probe and always bragged about his Probe to others in the office.

The Probe looked like a rip off of the Celica Hatchback for 1986 (first of the Front Drive Celica's) I would have liked Ford with the long in the tooth Fox platform Mustang to make the coupe resemble the Mustang II coupe amd thus a bit like the classic 1964 and a half through 1970 Mustangs. The 71, 72 and 73's were even fuglier than the Fox platform cars, in my book.

How do you think the Mustang II would have been treated by history if it was simply just called the Mustang? The II sort of trivialized the cars. Personally, I feel had the II not been added, the 1974 through 1978's would have fared better. Throwing II after the LTD was sort of tacky and imagine if Ford made the 1977 through 1979 T-Birds, Thunberbird II?

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: TSS
Posted 2012-12-19 23:47:03 and read 6801 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 235):
The 71, 72 and 73's were even fuglier than the Fox platform cars, in my book.

Call the '71-'73 Mustangs over-large, uncomfortable, or just wildly inefficient and you won't hear a word of disagreement out of me, but in my book the fastback versions of those three years were the best looking Mustangs of all time.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 233):
I do not remember the base Ford Fairmonts having that ugly manual window crank circle on it's doors!

They didn't. The base Fairmonts had an unremarkable stamped pattern on the doors that didn't highlight the window crank's area of operation.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 235):
How do you think the Mustang II would have been treated by history if it was simply just called the Mustang? The II sort of trivialized the cars. Personally, I feel had the II not been added, the 1974 through 1978's would have fared better.

I agree with you on adding the "II" moniker to the Mustang- It was unnecessary, particularly since the '74-'78 Mustangs were initially advertised as a return to the size and concept of the original '65 models. However, name aside, I think history has been reasonably fair in it's treatment of the Mustang II for two reasons:
1. The lack of a V8 option from day one- Seriously, what was Ford thinking?
2. Peculiar styling- The worst part is that the front wheels are mounted too far aft in relation to the crest on the front fenders. Simply moving the front wheels about three inches forward would have improved the Mustang II's looks dramatically and would have made for better fore/aft weight distribution, particularly on V8-equipped models. A few years ago Collectible Automobile ran an article on the Mustang II that showed several pre-production styling proposals, and every single one of them was better looking and had better proportions than what wound up in the showrooms. What happened between the concept and final production stage is anyone's guess, but Ford had several possible right tracks to follow and instead chose to go off the rails with the Mustang II's styling.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-19 23:53:46 and read 6802 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 235):
Throwing II after the LTD was sort of tacky and imagine if Ford made the 1977 through 1979 T-Birds, Thunberbird II?

The LTD II did seem a bit redundant. Why have a stripped down Thunderbird? Was the price that much different?

Quoting TSS (Reply 236):
Call the '71-'73 Mustangs over-large, uncomfortable, or just wildly inefficient and you won't hear a word of disagreement out of me, but in my book the fastback versions of those three years were the best looking Mustangs of all time.

The Mercury Cougar XR-7s looked a lot better with more features. For that generation, I'd just go for the Cougar.
Of the years in which Mustang didn't share the same body as the Cougar, I'd go for the 1983 convertible (I don't like the Capri of those years) or the 1999-2004 Mustangs as the best looking ones.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-12-20 21:28:43 and read 6730 times.

Quoting TSS (Reply 236):
A few years ago Collectible Automobile ran an article on the Mustang II that showed several pre-production styling proposals, and every single one of them was better looking and had better proportions than what wound up in the showrooms. What happened between the concept and final production stage is anyone's guess, but Ford had several possible right tracks to follow and instead chose to go off the rails with the Mustang II's styling.

I think this was due to Ford going with the Pinto platform. I learned on this thread Ford was seriously considering basing the 74 Mustang (II) on the compact Maverick frame. Then, they could have dropped an 8 under the hood as an option. Also the weight ratio would have been better. Front, back and side profile I actually liked the Mustang II looks. The coupes did hark back to the 1964 and a half through 1970 models.

Regarding the 1971-1973 Mustangs what killed it for me was the fugly "tunneled tail light treatment." Whereas the 1967-1968 and the 1969 and especially the 1970 Stangs had great looking tail lights. This generation just looked out of proportion. The fastback was the least objectionable looking. The Cougar of that generation was better looking.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: TSS
Posted 2012-12-20 22:08:09 and read 6727 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 238):
Regarding the 1971-1973 Mustangs what killed it for me was the fugly "tunneled tail light treatment."

  
I'm not sure what you mean since the '71-'73 Mustangs didn't have "tunneled tail lights" at all; The tail lights on '71-'73 Mustangs were almost flush-mounted with the rear panel. Are you referring to the "tunneled back light" (meaning the rear window) as found on '71-'73 Mustang coupes? If so, then we're in agreement as I think that roof/rear window treatment gives those Mustang coupes an unattractive, bob-tailed appearance.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 238):
Whereas the 1967-1968 and the 1969 and especially the 1970 Stangs had great looking tail lights.

Okay... maybe you are talking about tail lights and not back lights (rear windows). I will agree that the tail lights on the '71-'73 Mustangs are the weak point of the whole design because they're both too small for the car and oddly shaped as well. However, the fourth-generation Mustang's styling seems to have been heavily influenced by various Italian exotics of that period, particularly the DeTomaso Mangusta and the Lamborghini Espada, both of which had rather small and uninspired tail lights, so I've always chalked the '71-'73 Mustang tail lights up to Ford stylists trying to be a bit too faithful to the source material.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-12-20 22:16:28 and read 6722 times.

Quoting TSS (Reply 239):

The rear side window treatment on the 71-73 were not my favorites. The Tail Lights were oddly shaped and looked like a bad hybrid version of the classic round Ford Tail Lights and traditional Ford Mustang Tail Lights. Now looking at pictures of those fastbacks, they were way too angled. The Cougar of that era did much better all around with it's style.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-22 08:19:26 and read 6663 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 238):
I learned on this thread Ford was seriously considering basing the 74 Mustang (II) on the compact Maverick frame.


That would have looked really nice. Even a fully-dressed up Maverick/Comet with Luxury Decor Options wasn't as fancy as the Mustang II interior. The Granada/Monarch styling was formal and not sporty like the Mustang II.

Was there a handling upgrade on the Mustang II that separated it from the Pinto/Bobcat?
I would hope that the King Cobra and all other V8 Mustang II's had a better suspension over the Pinto.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 238):
Regarding the 1971-1973 Mustangs what killed it for me was the fugly "tunneled tail light treatment."


The Cougar had better looking tail lights, especially the sequential on the 1967-1969 models.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 238):
Whereas the 1967-1968 and the 1969 and especially the 1970 Stangs had great looking tail lights.


The lines look good on the convertible version of those Mustangs.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 240):
The Cougar of that era did much better all around with it's style.


  

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: type-rated
Posted 2012-12-23 09:04:25 and read 6605 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 241):
The Cougar had better looking tail lights, especially the sequential on the 1967-1969 models.

I had a 1970 Cougar XR-7 once and it had the sequential tail lights on it.

That was one heck of a great car. Made for on the road driving. On that long, long straight stretch of I-55 around Sikeston, MO you could hold it at 90mph and it felt like you were going 30. Unfortunately the car was unreliable as hell. At 2 years of age the freeze plugs on the engine failed, a year later the timing chain and power steering pump went. The year after that the harness that controlled the power windows went out, etc. Every year it was something major with that car. It was getting to the point where I felt that I had paid for it twice. But it was a beautiful car that was very comfortable to drive.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-23 09:20:15 and read 6599 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 242):
I had a 1970 Cougar XR-7 once and it had the sequential tail lights on it.

I was off by a year.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 242):
That was one heck of a great car. Made for on the road driving. On that long, long straight stretch of I-55 around Sikeston, MO you could hold it at 90mph and it felt like you were going 30.

Agreed! Such a beautiful machine.
Sounds like yours was made on a Monday or Friday.
Did yours have the 351cu", 390cu" or 429cu"?
Sounds like yours had a quiet exhaust as well.
A good friend of mines has a 1969 but his has a louder exhaust. At 90 it handles well but you can hear the rumble loud & clear.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-12-25 21:27:00 and read 6477 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 243):
Agreed! Such a beautiful machine.
Sounds like yours was made on a Monday or Friday.
Did yours have the 351cu", 390cu" or 429cu"?
Sounds like yours had a quiet exhaust as well.
A good friend of mines has a 1969 but his has a louder exhaust. At 90 it handles well but you can hear the rumble loud & clear.

During that period (Late 1960's) it seemed especially with GM and Ford products that had more options, you were taking a gamble. Some owners of both had great luck and their cars were as dependable as the Toyotas and Hondas others had lemmons.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: type-rated
Posted 2012-12-28 11:48:55 and read 6336 times.

Wow, that photo is the exact car I owned, same color & roof too. Mine had the 351 2bbl Cleveland engine in it. It got about 16-18 mpg, not too bad for the time. But it certainly fast enough. It had power to spare.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 244):
During that period (Late 1960's) it seemed especially with GM and Ford products that had more options, you were taking a gamble.

This Cougar I had came with every available factory option including an AM/FM Stereo Radio with 8 track. Maybe that had something to do with it? If I could find a nice one in the right colors today I might consider it. When I owned the first one I was in college driving from La. Tech to Chicago on the holidays before the 55mph speed limit went into effect. If road conditions were good, you could make it in 10 hours in that car.

BTW, I have also seen this car with a hounds tooth checked brown vinyl roof. It didn't look as good as the solid brown one I had on my car.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-28 12:54:17 and read 6316 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 245):
BTW, I have also seen this car with a hounds tooth checked brown vinyl roof.



There is one in the garage just 1 block away from my old place in San Francisco. It is a beautiful machine and the owner takes it out like once a year.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 245):
This Cougar I had came with every available factory option including an AM/FM Stereo Radio with 8 track. Maybe that had something to do with it?


Nope. The powertrain has nothing to do with the 8track player.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 245):
Wow, that photo is the exact car I owned, same color & roof too.


Did you have the lady as well?  
Quoting type-rated (Reply 245):
Mine had the 351 2bbl Cleveland engine in it. It got about 16-18 mpg, not too bad for the time. But it certainly fast enough. It had power to spare.


Imagine if you had the 428cu" eliminator engine.  
That was the last Ford to come available with a dual-point ignition system.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: cptkrell
Posted 2012-12-28 15:59:07 and read 6292 times.

Type-rated; for some reason I can't remember the 351 2V Cleveland engine that era. I thought all the 2bbls were Windsor engines -totally different -(but I'm old and have too many dead cells).

Speaking of being old, I remember when "we" designed that XR7 (Rep 243 photo). I was dissappointed in the swoopy bodyside stying; now I absolutely LOVE it.

Points of interest that probably nobody cares about; the name XR7 came from a design/engineering project code and project managers (read product plannners) couldn't get together with the marketing arm and other "suits" for car badge so they just put the code XR7 on the car. Sort of like Z-28. It was a Chev option code. Some of that last minute accidental stuff sticks.

Another deal for non-afficianodos of yesteryear (although 'Fly and Type-rated know this) is that the sequential rear turn signals on the T-bird and Cougars were operated by plastic camshafts behind each tailight asm (electronics NOT at the time), and as the camshaft rotated it would make contact with each individual bulb point to illuminate it. just blathering...jack

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: TSS
Posted 2012-12-28 20:15:57 and read 6261 times.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 247):
Another deal for non-afficianodos of yesteryear (although 'Fly and Type-rated know this) is that the sequential rear turn signals on the T-bird and Cougars were operated by plastic camshafts behind each tailight asm (electronics NOT at the time), and as the camshaft rotated it would make contact with each individual bulb point to illuminate it. just blathering...jack

Apparently the sequential turn signal actuators were well-engineered and durable pieces of machinery. I've seen several barely-running Cougars and Thunderbirds that were nothing but rust, dents, Bondo, and prayers all the way up to the windows on which the sequential turn signals were still operating just as they did when those cars were new.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: type-rated
Posted 2012-12-28 22:57:08 and read 6246 times.

Where were these cars built at? Someone once told me they were built in the same place as the Mark III was made.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 246):
Did you have the lady as well?

No, but a lot of guys I knew in college wanted to borrow my car all the time for "special" dates.
I only let one guy borrow it and he'd return it all washed and polished each and every time. And never even a scratch
on it. I also liked that swoop down each side, it gave the car definition and helped separate it from the Mustangs of the time.

By the time I bought this car (demo model in Oct 1970) it had 2,500 miles on it. I think I paid $3300 for it. It was a real good deal. I think the window sticker said it originally was $5500.

The only reason I think it had a 351 Cleveland in it was because the service writer at our local Lincoln/Mercury dealer told me that's what was in it. And I knew it had a 2V carb because I saw it when I changed my air filter. Maybe the guy at the dealership was wrong?

I never knew that about the tail lights being mechanical. I thought it was all electronic via a solenoid or something.

Another thing that was problematic was the gasket on the air reservoir that would keep the headlights closed when the car was turned off. I replaced that part several times.

And when I first got it the air conditioning wasn't really that cold in it at all. I had it to the dealership quite a number of times and they just said that all those Cougars had weak a/c units. Finally I took it into an independent a/c shop and when I picked it up they said the air is working fine and there isn't any charge. I asked what the problem was and they pointed out that there was a Ford Service Bulletin out that the dealership must have missed because the original manual had the a/c belt adjustment too loose and the SB corrected this. The guy at this shop said all they did was tighten the a/c belt to the new spec and voila! super cold air.

I remember one night after driving down to Baton Rouge to see a Moody Blues concert after the concert we had the windows down since it was a cool evening. About 1/2 back to school it started to rain and the windows would not go up. Finally pulled over and jiggled the wiring harness where the power windows connected to the fuse block and the windows went up before the interior got wet. The dealership there said it needed a new wiring harness and I think it cost about $400 to fix.

After talking about this car I'm starting to miss it. But whenever anything went wrong it was always an expensive repair. I was just starting out in my career at MDW and I just couldn't see continuously having to pour money into this car so I sold it. I just kept thinking "Maybe this is the last repair I'll need" and then something else would go wrong.
It had just turned 40,000 miles when I sold it.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-29 00:00:21 and read 6238 times.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 247):
Points of interest that probably nobody cares about; the name XR7 came from a design/engineering project code


That is interesting to know. My 2nd car was a 1976 Mercury Cougar XR-7. It was beat up. Vinyl roof was gone, some bodyside moldings were missing and almost all the neat trim that made the car an XR-7 was gone. When I went to insure it, they had asked if it was the XR-7 - I had told them "not anymore".

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 247):
Another deal for non-afficianodos of yesteryear (although 'Fly and Type-rated know this) is that the sequential rear turn signals on the T-bird and Cougars were operated by plastic camshafts behind each tailight asm (electronics NOT at the time), and as the camshaft rotated it would make contact with each individual bulb point to illuminate it.


Is that the same apparatus in the 1966-1977 Lincoln Continental speedometer? The tubular speedometers?

Quoting type-rated (Reply 249):
Where were these cars built at? Someone once told me they were built in the same place as the Mark III was made.



That would be the Wixom, Michigan plant, right?

Quoting type-rated (Reply 249):
By the time I bought this car (demo model in Oct 1970) it had 2,500 miles on it. I think I paid $3300 for it. It was a real good deal. I think the window sticker said it originally was $5500.



That sounds like a steal! I thought those sold for close to $7000. Perhaps I'm only looking at the convertible with the 428cu" and 4bbl. carb.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 249):
to see a Moody Blues concert after the concert


Ok NOW I am jealous! I love the Moody Blues! Wish I could have seen them at their peak but I wasn't alive yet.
Several years ago I bit the bullet and paid $102 on ebay for the quadraphonic reel-to-reel tape of Days Of Future Passed.
All of the Moody Blues quad-reeel tapes sale for 3 digits on ebay today. Luckily I also have their quad 8track tapes to play in my car. Ford/Mercury/Lincoln and Rolls Royce were the only two car brands to offer quadraphonic 8track tape players stock from the factory from 1975-1982.
I was told that Ford was going to sue a few record companies if they had discontinued releasing new albums in quad. Ford was a bit late in offering quad 8track players because it was most popular from 1972-1974 but Ford wasn't ready to offer this option until the 1976 model year (1975 calendar year). Therefore, some record companies continued to release limited titles (mostly classical and jazz) in quadraphonic sound in the mid to late 1970s.
Artist such as Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin insisted that their albums NOT be released in quad. I wish I could smack him for making such a bad call because they were on Atlantic records which released many artist on quadraphonic reel tape. Would have been out of this world to listen to Kashmir, The Rain Song and even Stairway To Heaven in quadraphonic sound.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 249):
the windows would not go up. Finally pulled over and jiggled the wiring harness where the power windows connected to the fuse block and the windows went up before the interior got wet.



My Cougar did the same thing but it was a 1976 model (not the same animal as yours). For me it was just the switch.



I wouldn't mind having a Cougar again. I'd go for a 1974 model with the 460cu", 4bbl. carb and straight dual exhaust, fully loaded with all options.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: TSS
Posted 2012-12-29 00:56:41 and read 6233 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 250):
Is that the same apparatus in the 1966-1977 Lincoln Continental speedometer? The tubular speedometers?

Nope. The Ford/Lincoln tubular (drum-type) speedometers operate just like a conventional speedometer except that instead of turning a needle around an arc on a gauge face they rotate a tube roughly the same size and shape as a paper towel tube with a red spiral on it dividing black and white sections behind a narrow convex lens, giving the illusion of a red dot with a white line behind it moving across a black bar.

Here's a (unfortunately rather small) pic of one removed from a '66 Continental-

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-29 01:21:16 and read 6235 times.

Happy Birthday TSS!   

I know how the speedometer works. I'm just curious as to how the sequential tailights work.

Quoting TSS (Reply 251):
Here's a (unfortunately rather small) pic of one removed from a '66 Continental-


Do you still have that speedometer? If so, I'd buy it off you.
The 1977 models have the tubular speedometer that only goes to 80MPH. Only a few had the 120MPH like the 1966-1976 models. I want to put in the 120MPH speedometer.
Once I blueprint my 460cu" engine to the the 1968-1970 specs, I'll be going above 80MPH more often.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: TSS
Posted 2012-12-29 09:07:33 and read 6187 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 252):
Happy Birthday TSS!

Thanks! 
Quoting Superfly (Reply 252):
I know how the speedometer works. I'm just curious as to how the sequential tailights work.

My bad. I misunderstood your question.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 252):
Do you still have that speedometer? If so, I'd buy it off you.

It's not mine, that pic is the one and only usable result of a Google image search.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 252):
The 1977 models have the tubular speedometer that only goes to 80MPH. Only a few had the 120MPH like the 1966-1976 models. I want to put in the 120MPH speedometer.

I would as well. I'll keep my eyes open for a '75 or '76 Town Car speedometer with lens/faceplate that isn't faded or scratched all to heck.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-29 09:34:48 and read 6181 times.

This 'worst cars' thread has turned in to the 'best cars' thread.  
Quoting TSS (Reply 253):
My bad. I misunderstood your question.


No problem. Now I am really curious as to how these sequentials work.

Quoting TSS (Reply 253):
I would as well. I'll keep my eyes open for a '75 or '76 Town Car speedometer with lens/faceplate that isn't faded or scratched all to heck.


Thanks. I'm starting to wonder if it's the same speedometer dating back to 1966 or if it changed in 1970 or in 1975. Perhaps I can get cptkrell or PHLBOS to answer this?  
My dashboard is the pretty much the same dating back to the 1970 model year. Only a few cosmetic changes on surface but behind, the wiring and vent ducts are the same.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: TSS
Posted 2012-12-29 09:53:19 and read 6176 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 254):
I'm starting to wonder if it's the same speedometer dating back to 1966 or if it changed in 1970 or in 1975.

My uninformed, WAG is that the mechanicals are the same on all of them, but the mounting bracket changed in 1970.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 254):
This 'worst cars' thread has turned in to the 'best cars' thread.

The Chevrolet Vega engine: It offered all the added complexity of an overhead camshaft while giving none of the usual associated benefits of an OHC design.

There, now we're back on track. 

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: type-rated
Posted 2012-12-29 09:54:47 and read 6174 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 254):
This 'worst cars' thread has turned in to the 'best cars' thread.

Even though I liked my Cougar very much, it was as unreliable as any worst car on the road. So it qualifies for this list.

I went from a Cougar to a AMC Gremlin. Now that's another worst car. At the place I worked at there were a few other people who also owned Gremlins. We used to compare stories about where we were when our cars would leave us stranded. I kept it for a number of years and it rusted right out from under me.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: cptkrell
Posted 2012-12-29 09:58:29 and read 6172 times.

I am not entirely sure about the speedo question. I spent very little time in the FoMoCo exterior studios just before I got drafted (1968). I do remember that my exec was sort of pissed at me because I kept rendering T-Bird interiors reminiscent of the 1961 'Bird with the swing away steering wheel and wrap around back seat. My dad had one and to this day I still think it's one of the coolest.

Anyway, incorporated into the tailight assembly there was a plastic camshaft rotated by an electric motor that was activated when the turn signal stalk was levered. Each tail bulb had electrical contact points that were closed as the cam lobes compressed them in sequence. At least that's to my memory, and I could stand corrected by restorer who's more intimately familiar.

BTW, that '74 Cougar a bit dissappointed me. It's essentially a Montego notchback with specific trim and a window "port" hole poked into the C-pillar. I liked the XR7 when it was its' own body style, but Ford scrapped the Mustang/Cougar platform and the Mustang II emerged from the Pinto and Cougar used the Torino/Montego platform. Hey, I rented a Hertz 427 (428?) Cougar Eliminator when I would get weekend passes from Signal Corps AIT at Ft Gordon, GA. What a screamer. I still had my Ford Styling security badge (they'd NEVER rent such a beast to an Army PFC trainee!). Regards...jack

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: cptkrell
Posted 2012-12-29 10:05:30 and read 6172 times.

The second sentence in my reply 257 should have read "I spent very little time in the FoMoCo INterior studios..." Sorry, jack

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-29 10:49:57 and read 6166 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 256):
it was as unreliable as any worst car on the road. So it qualifies for this list.



For me it was this very 1987 Chrysler Lebaron convertible.
Beautiful car that I was able to pull lots of babes with but broke all the time.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 256):
I went from a Cougar to a AMC Gremlin.


Wow.   

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 257):
I do remember that my exec was sort of pissed at me because I kept rendering T-Bird interiors reminiscent of the 1961 'Bird with the swing away steering wheel and wrap around back seat. My dad had one and to this day I still think it's one of the coolest.



Good you were there to keep that design alive. It is once of the coolest but my favorite from that era would be the 1966 Thunderbird convertible.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 257):
Anyway, incorporated into the tailight assembly there was a plastic camshaft rotated by an electric motor that was activated when the turn signal stalk was levered. Each tail bulb had electrical contact points that were closed as the cam lobes compressed them in sequence. At least that's to my memory, and I could stand corrected by restorer who's more intimately familiar.



I'd like to see how that works. Sounds like something from the Jetson's.  
Quoting cptkrell (Reply 257):
that '74 Cougar a bit dissappointed me. It's essentially a Montego notchback with specific trim and a window "port" hole poked into the C-pillar.


Nothing disappointing about that. The Montego was a great car to being with. The only thing those 74-76 Cougars are missing is the sequential taillights. The taillights already have the segmentation for it.

There an strip club owner here in Thailand that drives a 1974 Mercury Montego MX Brougham.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: NoUFO
Posted 2012-12-29 11:05:03 and read 6160 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 259):
Beautiful car that I was able to pull lots of babes with but broke all the time.

Tell that to this Peugeot-504-Lover. I never owned one, but I was told that beauty would get rusty as soon as you'd roll it out of the garage.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-29 11:27:23 and read 6154 times.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 260):
Tell that to this Peugeot-504-Lover. I never owned one, but I was told that beauty would get rusty as soon as you'd roll it out of the garage.

Nice car!   
That can be said about a lot of French and Italian cars of that time.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: type-rated
Posted 2012-12-29 12:52:13 and read 6134 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 259):
Quoting type-rated (Reply 256):
I went from a Cougar to a AMC Gremlin.


Wow.

I had to buy something cheap and new. Whatever it was had to be reliable. I was starting my first flying job for a small package express company out of MDW and I needed to be there on time every time. So a Gremlin fit the bill. Not a lot of flash, just basic transportation but that engine did start each and every time. I was stranded by it only one time. But I was only making $13,000 per year and living in the Chicago area. Whatever I drove, it needed to be cheap.

And remember in 1974 there was a major economic recession going on and jobs of any kind were hard to find. So in case I lost this job I didn't want to be saddled with huge car payments.

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-29 13:07:03 and read 6132 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 262):



Sounds like a smart decision at the time. I know we tend to look back fondly of the great cars offered at the time and wonder why people still bought stripped down or cheaper cars when there were other cars that were so much better. We often forget about the difference in cost and cost of living at the time.
25 years from now, there will probably still be a lot of Chrysler 300s around yet very few SRT-8 models an we'll wonder why there are so few then.

We were living near Chicago at the time. My dad's man car was a 1968 Ford Mustang Mach 1 but it threw a rod on a road trip in 1972 and he parked it in the garage and bought a 1972 Toyota Corolla wagon. Sacrilege!


So about your Gremlin. Did it at least have the Levi's Strauss denim interior and the 5.0 liter, 301cu" V8?

Topic: RE: 10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)
Username: iowaman
Posted 2012-12-29 13:23:24 and read 6126 times.

As this thread has reached over 260 replies please continue the discussion here:

10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey) #2 (by iowaman Dec 29 2012 in Non Aviation)


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