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Topic: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2012-12-07 08:06:28 and read 5360 times.

Really sad breaking news. The nurse duped by an Australian radio station has apparently killed herself. Too early to know why, but if it is a result of the prank then I hope a few people might consider how they treat people in future.

Thoughts?

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: damirc
Posted 2012-12-07 08:16:57 and read 5355 times.

Seems to be confirmed ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/de...mbridge-hoax-call-nurse-found-dead

D.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: alberchico
Posted 2012-12-07 08:29:53 and read 5331 times.

Was she in danger of losing her job because she fell for the prank ? That could have been the prime reason.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-12-07 08:30:25 and read 5326 times.

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Too early to know why, but if it is a result of the prank then I hope a few people might consider how they treat people in future.

By not trying to do anything entertaining for fear that someone might take things too seriously and kill themselves?

Obviously, it's tragic that someone felt the need to take their life over what was, as prank calls go, pretty harmless. And I'm sure the hosts feel pretty bad about this. No need to brand them as horrible people the way I've seen some doing (not on this thread, at least not yet, but in articles I've read elsewhere).

-Mir

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-12-07 08:35:43 and read 5312 times.

Quoting alberchico (Reply 2):
Was she in danger of losing her job because she fell for the prank ? That could have been the prime reason.

I'd really hope not. She didn't give away any revealing information, just a general report of things we knew (or could assume) already. A review of hospital policy about dealing with phone calls would have been in order, and then let things go.

The same would go for the switchboard operator who put the DJs through to her, of course - it's not like they called the ward directly.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: WestJet747
Posted 2012-12-07 08:36:41 and read 5309 times.

I've already seen people on Twitter calling for the radio DJs to be arrested/charged in connection to her death. As tragic as this is, there's no crime here.

My condolences to her family.

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
but if it is a result of the prank then I hope a few people might consider how they treat people in future.

Why? How did they mistreat her?

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: 4holer
Posted 2012-12-07 09:14:44 and read 5268 times.

Ah, the "hysterical" radio prank call. I thought radio had moved on from that after those DJs prank called the recently widowed wife of that St Louis Cardinals pitcher who had suddenly died.
Edit: link to widow prank story http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sport...dinals/2002-10-07-kile-prank_x.htm

[Edited 2012-12-07 09:21:49]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: homer71
Posted 2012-12-07 09:25:57 and read 5245 times.

Quoting 4holer (Reply 6):
those DJs prank called the recently widowed wife of that St Louis Cardinals pitcher who had suddenly died.

Was that Darryl Kile? What happened with that prank call?

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2012-12-07 09:39:19 and read 5224 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
need to brand them as horrible people

I've deliberately not done that. I was pretty clear that judgement was reserved.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 5):
Why? How did they mistreat her?

They did potentially jeopardise her job for the sake of a cheap laugh. Whether she did her job properly or not I don't know, I guess more information will come in due course.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: stlgph
Posted 2012-12-07 09:49:49 and read 5210 times.

I've not seen a picture, but the name of the nurse suggests she was an Indian woman. If it's the truth, I'm thinking it was more of a pride/shame thing than anything. God only knows what the kind people at the Palace had to say to her after it all went down.

That being said, to the nitty gritty: I don't blame the DJ's for any fault here.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: bristolflyer
Posted 2012-12-07 09:57:17 and read 5198 times.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 9):
God only knows what the kind people at the Palace had to say to her after it all went down.

Here is a clip from the BBC website...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20645838


That says...

A palace spokesman later added that "at no point did the palace complain to the hospital about the incident".

The DJs that did the prank call are idiots - Kate was in hospital with severe morning sickness; trying to entertainment out of that situation is pretty crass.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2012-12-07 10:05:46 and read 5193 times.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 9):
I've not seen a picture, but the name of the nurse suggests she was an Indian woman. If it's the truth, I'm thinking it was more of a pride/shame thing than anything.

If you want assumptions, this one would take the cake.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: stlgph
Posted 2012-12-07 10:13:33 and read 5176 times.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 11):

Cool. Because my London bureau just told me I'm not too far off.
So, I'm gonna have some cake.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: idealstandard
Posted 2012-12-07 10:24:01 and read 5153 times.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 5):
Why? How did they mistreat her?

The way I see it is that if they hadn't done it, she'd still be alive.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: AM744
Posted 2012-12-07 10:33:47 and read 5136 times.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 9):
but the name of the nurse suggests she was an Indian woman

I'm thinking Brazilian.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-12-07 11:21:10 and read 5075 times.

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 10):
The DJs that did the prank call are idiots - Kate was in hospital with severe morning sickness; trying to entertainment out of that situation is pretty crass.

And I suppose all the news crews set up shop outside the hospital because their studios were closed that day? This is a celebrity news story - it serves no purpose other than entertainment.

Quoting idealstandard (Reply 13):
The way I see it is that if they hadn't done it, she'd still be alive.

In order for that logic to work, the death would have to be a reasonable reaction to what they did. But since suicide is a reasonable reaction to almost nothing, certainly not a harmless prank call, it doesn't.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2012-12-07 11:21:28 and read 5074 times.

Quoting AM744 (Reply 14):
Quoting stlgph (Reply 9):but the name of the nurse suggests she was an Indian woman
I'm thinking Brazilian.

My first guess would be Filipino.

There's lots of them working in the health service in the UK. Many here alone, with families back home.

Pure speculation, but it might explain how the farcical impersonation of the Queen wasn't picked up, and the subsequent isolation and lonliness that might lead to this terrible conclusion.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: idealstandard
Posted 2012-12-07 11:30:51 and read 5064 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
In order for that logic to work, the death would have to be a reasonable reaction to what they did. But since suicide is a reasonable reaction to almost nothing, certainly not a harmless prank call, it doesn't.

Really do not understand this comment, I hope you are not insinuating that you have no sympathy for those who are driven to a state where they honestly believe in their minds that the only option is to end it.

Who knows what else was going on in this woman's life, and perhaps the stress of the past few days tipped her over the edge, back to my original point.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Ken777
Posted 2012-12-07 11:31:25 and read 5064 times.

Quoting alberchico (Reply 2):
Was she in danger of losing her job because she fell for the prank ?

No. Not at all.

Quoting alberchico (Reply 2):
That could have been the prime reason.

That was neer an issue. I believe it was based on being humiliated in public.

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
By not trying to do anything entertaining for fear that someone might take things too seriously and kill themselves?

When what you do can have serious consequences you need to re-look at what you consider "entertainment". If you are given a radio mike you need to accept the responsibilities for how you use it.

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
No need to brand them as horrible people the way I've seen some doing

Basically their actions have caused the death of an innocent. Most important is that their actions were intentional with a total disregard for any results that they have caused. It was past "bad judgement".

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 5):
As tragic as this is, there's no crime here.

The Sydney paper did mention that they violated Australian Laws. That, and the result of their actions should be sufficient for the DJ's to have their licenses pulled permanently. A permanent ban from radio and TV is a good way to set standard back where it should be in Australia.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-12-07 11:59:20 and read 5039 times.

Quoting idealstandard (Reply 17):
I hope you are not insinuating that you have no sympathy for those who are driven to a state where they honestly believe in their minds that the only option is to end it.

Not at all. I have a lot of sympathy for her. But that doesn't mean I think anyone else did wrong.

Quoting idealstandard (Reply 17):
Who knows what else was going on in this woman's life, and perhaps the stress of the past few days tipped her over the edge

That's entirely possible, even likely. But it's not reasonable to expect someone halfway around the world to know that, and thus it's not reasonable to expect them to not do something that would, in 99.99% of cases, be harmless.

This is not the first time people have been prank called. It is the first time I have heard of anyone killing themselves over it, certainly over one as harmless as this.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18):
If you are given a radio mike you need to accept the responsibilities for how you use it.

They have apologized, which they should have done. I don't see any malice on their part, so I don't see what else could be expected of them.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18):
Basically their actions have caused the death of an innocent.

No. She caused her own death. Nobody else.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18):
Most important is that their actions were intentional with a total disregard for any results that they have caused.

A completely unfounded accusation.

Again, it is not reasonable to expect that someone would kill themselves over this, therefore you can't say that someone is acting with disregard for the consequences of their actions if they don't consider a consequence that is so remote it's almost implausible.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NWAdeicer
Posted 2012-12-07 12:10:52 and read 5016 times.

They should be terminated from their jobs and then prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law with a minimum of 35 years in prison.

Isn't that how the over-reactors say it? Just want to make sure  

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-07 12:16:49 and read 5011 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
This is not the first time people have been prank called. It is the first time I have heard of anyone killing themselves over it, certainly over one as harmless as this.

So it is - or may be - a first?

For Prince William, I assume it brings back fairly ugly memories of what happened to his mother and the relentless pursuit of her by the paparazzi.

And it was probably inevitable that eventually, one day, an underling was going to get caught in the cross fire of these so-called "prank" calls and this radio station was already operating under probation for previous "pranks."

For myself, I fail to see what is funny about a sick pregnant woman or the possibility that whoever took the call was going to get at least a bolllocking over it.

These two attention seeking dimwit DJ's did not think their actions through, but at the very least, the radio station lawyers who approved the "prank" call tape before it was broadcast should review their own attitudes.

mariner

[Edited 2012-12-07 12:49:19]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-12-07 12:46:07 and read 4982 times.

I cant believe the cretins I see who say "oh the poor dj's were just making a prank call it happens everyday". What a croc, show me these prank calls where a hospital or medical conditions have been involved. These 2 vile pos knew regardless that this call was going to cause the nurse some kind of ass chewing or ultimately to lose her job and make her life harder but who cares because they can get themselves a few giggles.

I dont want to imagine the shame this woman felt to stoop to suicide, In reality she was the victim of a sad pathetic world that just gets worse every year. I am glad to see the treatment the dj's are recieving, They earned it.. this woman didnt ask to be stuck in the middle of this game, she was just living a life protecting and caring for others. Now her 2 children get to see in Christmas in a few weeks and spend the rest of their life with no mother. All so some losers can have a brief laugh? This planet really disgusts me. Is this evolution?

Those 2 fools were the cause of this, without this low level gutter breeding kind of entertainment this woman would be alive.
I hope the outcome will englighten other people that every action has a consequence. They will have to live with this forever, May it eat them alive.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2012-12-07 12:49:51 and read 4980 times.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 12):
Cool. Because my London bureau just told me I'm not too far off.
So, I'm gonna have some cake.

They gave you an insight into her thoughts and motives for resorting to suicide?? Wow, I'd love to know how they knew what they were. Did they get a hold of her suicide note or something?

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-12-07 12:54:55 and read 4968 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
For myself, I fail to see what is funny about a sick pregnant woman or the possibility that whoever took the call was going to get at least a bolllocking over it.

This for me was the main thing that just shows the level of these scumbags. The target of their prank was a pregnant woman suffering from a serious debilitating illness.

Why be surprised though it is the same station that got a 14 yr old kid to admit she was raped on air while attached to a lie detector. Anyone who finds this kind of stuff amusing is a low life.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: planejamie
Posted 2012-12-07 13:07:04 and read 5069 times.

I think the DJs were almost entirely to blame for causing this. Shall I remind everyone what Johnnathon Ross and Russel Brand did a couple of years ago on Radio? They prank called someone at their home and left offensive messages on their answer machine. What happened after that? The guy took offence, the BBC came under scrutiny and the pair lost their jobs and in Ross's case contracts with the BBC.

So therefore causing someone to commit suicide over this because they had a fear of media bashing, social outcast (I've been there, not fun) and losing her job (and therefore her visa if she was working over here without citizenship and therefore a risk of being deported back home possibly). All these things are what possibly went through that poor nurse's mind. It wasn't her job to answer the phone since the receptionist wasn't there, she just did it anyway.

I feel the 2 Austrailian DJs in this case should at the very least lose their jobs over this, with or without the nurse's suicide and be forced into at least giving a formal apology to the family of the nurse, Kate and William and I feel the Queen and Prince Charles for impersonating them over the phone like this. Having anyone in hospital during the early stages of pregnancy is no laughing matter. What if a miscarriage had been reported and leaked in that way? So don't anyone on here come back with "oh it was only a joke" because would you like it if you were in the nurse's position?

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Acheron
Posted 2012-12-07 13:20:45 and read 5047 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
By not trying to do anything entertaining for fear that someone might take things too seriously and kill themselves?

There is quite a difference between being entertaining at the expense of yourself or others in a harmless way(hidden cam shows, etc.) and doing it at the expense of someone's employment, specially during times like these where losing your job can be hard thing to cope with.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2012-12-07 13:24:44 and read 5086 times.

Quoting planejamie (Reply 25):
I feel the 2 Austrailian DJs in this case should at the very least lose their jobs over this, with or without the nurse's suicide and be forced into at least giving a formal apology to the family of the nurse, Kate and William and I feel the Queen and Prince Charles for impersonating them over the phone like this. Having anyone in hospital during the early stages of pregnancy is no laughing matter. What if a miscarriage had been reported and leaked in that way? So don't anyone on here come back with "oh it was only a joke" because would you like it if you were in the nurse's position?

This is a very tricky area. The problem with suicide is that things which one person might be able to just shrug off in an instant, for others might represent something that could push them over the edge. In defence of the DJs I would say that this factor is something fairly impossible, or at least very difficult, to judge. Nonetheless, I doubt it would take too much imagination to figure out that you might at least risk getting someone sacked, and I guess that is something that might profoundly affect many people. On one hand, it is unlikely she killed herself just because of this - usually something happens which just tips the balance, when things have already built up for a while, to then lead someone to taking such a drastic step as suicide. On the other hand, suicide is more common that we think, and perhaps we should try and be a little more sensitive to others - particularly when we know nothing about them personally yet choose to intervene in their lives in some way.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-12-07 13:28:56 and read 5076 times.

Though this may have pushed her over the edge, this nurse probably had some preexisting depression before the incident. This is nothing to kill yourself over, unless you were down in the dumps already.

As for the prank callers, it may be kind of a crappy thing to do, but as long as they didn't break any laws, I don't see how they could (or should) be held responsible

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: PC12Fan
Posted 2012-12-07 13:33:10 and read 5071 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18):
Basically their actions have caused the death of an innocent.

She got duped. She could have left it with just her pride getting hurt. I do sympathize with some cases of suicide. This is not one of them.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18):
The Sydney paper did mention that they violated Australian Laws.

By making a phone call? Out of curiousity, Is there some malicious intent clause or something?

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-07 13:36:40 and read 5057 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 28):
Though this may have pushed her over the edge, this nurse probably had some preexisting depression before the incident. This is nothing to kill yourself over, unless you were down in the dumps already.

She may have, but that's the point - she may have been caught in a quite unnecessary crossfire that pushed her over the edge.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 28):
As for the prank callers, it may be kind of a crappy thing to do, but as long as they didn't break any laws, I don't see how they could (or should) be held responsible

I seriously doubt the DJ's thought anyone would take their own life, but - actions have consequences.

Despite their denials, the DJ's clearly expected their was the chance they might get through (else why do it?) and thus that person may have faced unpleasant consequences.

mariner

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2012-12-07 13:39:06 and read 5055 times.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 29):
I do sympathize with some cases of suicide. This is not one of them.

Umm, what do you know about her circumstances beyond this incident, or indeed in the context of her life how precisely this affected her?? Nevermind the fact that every suicide is a tragedy.....

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-12-07 13:45:32 and read 5046 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 28):
As for the prank callers, it may be kind of a crappy thing to do, but as long as they didn't break any laws, I don't see how they could (or should) be held responsible

Without their call she wouldnt be dead.. They are solely responsible for the whole situation.

And they have broken laws, Impersonating a family member to obtain medical information.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 29):

She got duped. She could have left it with just her pride getting hurt. I do sympathize with some cases of suicide. This is not one of them.

Ridiculous comment, What does pride have to do with it.. She may have feared for current employment which her family depends on? She may have been on the recieving end of bullying? Her name flashed accross the media for all to see and mock. Potential to ruin her future employment possibilities. Not to mention most nurses thrive and live for the protection of their patients. Everything that she worked hard for in jeopardy for 5 minutes of amusement for a bunch of *****.

It was only up until a few hours ago the 2 smug dj's were still linking to their video laughing and joking and bigging themselves up for putting a womans job on the line during a recession. Now she is dead they can run off into hiding until it blows over, Her children lose out on a mother for life.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2012-12-07 14:10:30 and read 5006 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 32):
Without their call she wouldnt be dead

To be fair we really can't be certain of that. We don't know that something else didn't come her way that day, or the day she took her life. No note has been referred to in the press as far as I know, and in those circumstances it is always going to be very difficult to accurately judge the motives. I had a friend who very seriously attempted to take their own life, and nearly succeeded. We all thought we *understood* the reasons, and over time it became clear that we really just didn't know the half of what was going on in his mind.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: AR385
Posted 2012-12-07 14:32:21 and read 4995 times.

Well, so far Mel Greig and Michael Christian, the offending DJs have been suspended untill further notice and the station has offered some sort of statement. It´s not one of condolences, nor of apology but it does show they are shocked and worried.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-12-07 14:35:54 and read 4985 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 22):
his woman didnt ask to be stuck in the middle of this game, she was just living a life protecting and caring for others. Now her 2 children get to see in Christmas in a few weeks and spend the rest of their life with no mother. All so some losers can have a brief laugh?

You're saying all this as if they expected this outcome. I'll bet you they didn't expect anything close.

Quoting planejamie (Reply 25):
What if a miscarriage had been reported and leaked in that way?

That would have definitely been inappropriate. But that didn't happen, and we don't know that it would have happened. I assume they were pre-recording this and not doing it live - if so, they'd have the opportunity not to run the tape if something like that came out. Assuming that they would run in anyway is an overreach.

Quoting planejamie (Reply 25):
Shall I remind everyone what Johnnathon Ross and Russel Brand did a couple of years ago on Radio? They prank called someone at their home and left offensive messages on their answer machine.

There's a big difference between leaving offensive messages on someone's answering machine and asking "how is Kate doing?"

Quoting planejamie (Reply 25):
nd be forced into at least giving a formal apology to the family of the nurse, Kate and William

That they should definitely do (and I believe they have). I don't believe they need to do much else.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 26):
There is quite a difference between being entertaining at the expense of yourself or others in a harmless way(hidden cam shows, etc.) and doing it at the expense of someone's employment, specially during times like these where losing your job can be hard thing to cope with.

This was pretty harmless. The hospital said that her job was never in jeopardy, and she didn't reveal anything that we didn't know.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 32):
Without their call she wouldnt be dead..

No, if she hadn't taken her own life she wouldn't be dead.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: vikkyvik
Posted 2012-12-07 14:42:30 and read 4973 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
By not trying to do anything entertaining for fear that someone might take things too seriously and kill themselves?

Obviously, it's tragic that someone felt the need to take their life over what was, as prank calls go, pretty harmless. And I'm sure the hosts feel pretty bad about this. No need to brand them as horrible people the way I've seen some doing (not on this thread, at least not yet, but in articles I've read elsewhere).

Whether or not they're horrible people, I don't believe they're responsible for the nurse's death.

Quoting idealstandard (Reply 13):

The way I see it is that if they hadn't done it, she'd still be alive.

Maybe so. But say I'm driving slower than the guy behind me wants to drive. He gets a serious case of road rage, gets pissed off at the world, goes home and kills himself.

If I hadn't done that, he'd still be alive........But what did I really do?

It's just the first example that came to mind.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18):
When what you do can have serious consequences you need to re-look at what you consider "entertainment". If you are given a radio mike you need to accept the responsibilities for how you use it.
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 27):
This is a very tricky area. The problem with suicide is that things which one person might be able to just shrug off in an instant, for others might represent something that could push them over the edge.

With regard to those two comments, the problem is that anything we do (absolutely ANYTHING) can have a slight chance of having a negative effect on someone. I could tell, say, a "dead baby" joke, and someone might overhear it, get incredibly offended and/or depressed (say, if they had a baby that died), and go home and kill him/herself.

Is that really my fault?

For all the talk about personal responsibility that I see on here, this is a pretty good example of it. Ultimately, you are responsible for taking your own life. And before someone says it, yes, I know there are people with mental illnesses or whatever that make such judgments difficult. But you still can't really blame that on someone else.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2012-12-07 14:54:43 and read 4964 times.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 36):
With regard to those two comments, the problem is that anything we do (absolutely ANYTHING) can have a slight chance of having a negative effect on someone. I could tell, say, a "dead baby" joke, and someone might overhear it, get incredibly offended and/or depressed (say, if they had a baby that died), and go home and kill him/herself.

Is that really my fault?

For all the talk about personal responsibility that I see on here, this is a pretty good example of it. Ultimately, you are responsible for taking your own life. And before someone says it, yes, I know there are people with mental illnesses or whatever that make such judgments difficult. But you still can't really blame that on someone else.

That is absolutely fair comment, and you're completely right - sometimes there is NO telling what will affect someone profoundly. However, to play devil's advocate, is it not also fair to say that the risk of someone getting into trouble at work or even losing their job was really quite predictable? I'm not saying that happened here, we don't know an awful lot about the work situation other than that the hospital say they were giving support to the affected staff. However, IF that had been the case, for example, then it's a pretty heavy consequence. Losing a job wouldn't be a small issue for many, in fact it could be totally life-changing. So I guess my point is that there were potentially some fairly serious, potentially readily-identifiable consequences here, and it may not just be one of those cases where there was genuinely no telling how it might affect someone. Granted, suicide would be an extreme reaction to losing a job, but not such a leap of imagination to foresee.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-12-07 14:59:28 and read 4950 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 35):
No, if she hadn't taken her own life she wouldn't be dead.

Since they have both been taken off the air you should apply for their position, Your attitude fits right in.

I'm sure you would be happy if some random loser was calling up pretending to be your relative to find out medical information about your children or wife or you to use against you. Or was jeopardizing your future for a laugh. Nah you wouldn't.. not even remotely.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 36):
But you still can't really blame that on someone else.

Its total BS, So lets use an example of all the kids who kill themselves after endless torment and bullying or being abused by parents.. its their own fault because they are the ones who took their own life to get away from misery. You cant judge someone like that who is desperate to escape such a situation. You can however place blame with those who cause the situation. In this case the whole situation would not be relevant if 2 morons in australia didn't think ruining someone else's career and ultimately life was worth 2 minutes of lowsy gutter level humour.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-12-07 15:01:55 and read 4948 times.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 36):
For all the talk about personal responsibility that I see on here, this is a pretty good example of it. Ultimately, you are responsible for taking your own life. And before someone says it, yes, I know there are people with mental illnesses or whatever that make such judgments difficult. But you still can't really blame that on someone else.

   The standard is "knowing everything this person knew, or had cause to suspect, is it reasonable to think that the actions they took would have the resulting consequences?" If you can answer that question with a yes, then hold them responsible. Otherwise, you can't.

The nurse in this case may have been under a lot of stress, paranoid about keeping her job, etc., and there's nothing wrong with that. But you can't expect a complete stranger to know that. It is not reasonable to think that calling a hospital to ask "how is this patient doing" while impersonating a relative would cause someone to take their own life. Therefore, you can't hold the DJs responsible for what happened.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 37):
However, to play devil's advocate, is it not also fair to say that the risk of someone getting into trouble at work or even losing their job was really quite predictable?

I don't know if it's predictable. It's certainly possible, but I'd say unlikely unless the hospital management was incredibly draconian or the nurse just really bungled her job (and I want to make very clear that I am NOT suggesting that she did - I think she did nothing wrong). But it's still a long way from losing a job to taking your own life. So you'd have to first think that she might lose her job (unlikely), and then think that it would drive her to take her own life (very unlikely). In other words, it's doubly unlikely, and outside the realm of plausibility.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2012-12-07 15:08:04 and read 4936 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):

I don't know if it's predictable. It's certainly possible, but I'd say unlikely unless the hospital management was incredibly draconian or the nurse just really bungled her job

The potential for media focus was pretty clear I think, so while you're right it's not easy to predict how draconian or otherwise the management would be at the hospital it is nonetheless a distinct possibility that one might consider.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-12-07 15:27:15 and read 4912 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 38):
I'm sure you would be happy if some random loser was calling up pretending to be your relative to find out medical information about your children or wife or you to use against you. Or was jeopardizing your future for a laugh. Nah you wouldn't.. not even remotely.

First of all, what information were they asking about that could be used against anyone? They asked how Kate was doing, and the answer was that she was doing fine. And second of all, if I had been the nurse, I'll readily admit that I probably would have fallen for it, and I'd have felt like an idiot. But that's about it.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 38):
So lets use an example of all the kids who kill themselves after endless torment and bullying or being abused by parents..

You seem to be confusing endless torment or abuse with a one-time prank.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 40):
The potential for media focus was pretty clear I think

If we're going to play devil's advocate, why aren't we blaming the hospital for not supporting her fully and making sure that she didn't suffer any ramifications other than perhaps some review/update of their communications policy for what was an honest mistake (and it's even a stretch to call it a mistake, since the situation was rather unfair towards her)? If we're going to say that the fear of losing her job drove her to take her own life, why shouldn't the hospital (who is much more likely to be aware of her mental state) take some blame for ever letting her think that that was a possibility?

-Mir

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Ken777
Posted 2012-12-07 15:44:19 and read 4905 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
They have apologized, which they should have done.

Gee, that makes ALL the difference. I'm so bloody impressed with that pathetic effort I could gag.

Especially since:

Quote:

In reports about her suspected suicide, British newspapers and BBC television ran large smiling photos of the Australian hoaxers. They said the DJs and the station had continued to advertise the stunt world-wide.

The Daily Mail wrote, "today Christian was continuing to boast about the prank 'making international headlines' on Twitter".
http://www.smh.com.au/world/nurse-at...-20121208-2b1u2.html#ixzz2EPXX9bla

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
No. She caused her own death. Nobody else.

She was a nurse taking care of her patients and all of a sudden she is known around the world for being the blunt of a rancid hoax. The two sh*ts who played the hoax are the ones who put her in a position when they played the hoax.

Reality is that if these two sh*t had not played their games she would still be living a normal life and taking care of patients.

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
Again, it is not reasonable to expect that someone would kill themselves over this

It is not reasonable that you can play pathetic (and illegal) games without understanding that you are hurting people in order to be "cute" on the air.

You might put up some type of argument that these two sh*ts are oh, so innocent,

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
this radio station was already operating under probation for previous "pranks."

Guess it might be time to shut it down. I was assuming that it was a responsible radio station that simply made an error in hiring these two yo-yos.

Reality is that when people are given the rights to broadcast they are also given responsibility for their actions. It looks like this station has no concerns about their responsibilities as a broadcaster so maybe it is time to take away those rights

Shut them down, both as pubishment for their irresponsibility and as a clear lesson for other stations.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: A346Dude
Posted 2012-12-07 15:50:51 and read 4890 times.

How about instead of chastising the DJs for a possibility nobody would have considered in foresight in a million years, we look at the actual causes of this? Namely an insane media-driven culture and one person's depression.

Radio DJs are not particularly funny or smart, that's why they're on the radio. They didn't do this out of malice, they were just trying to get a cheap joke like they do every other day. Blaming them for someone's suicide is way out of line.

[Edited 2012-12-07 15:53:58]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-07 15:52:36 and read 4892 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):
First of all, what information were they asking about that could be used against anyone? They asked how Kate was doing, and the answer was that she was doing fine. And second of all, if I had been the nurse, I'll readily admit that I probably would have fallen for it, and I'd have felt like an idiot. But that's about it.

There are issues of patient confidentiality but the nurse who gave out that information is not the nurse who committed suicide.

But we are talking about a very high-profile patient here - in a precarious medical condition - and an impersonation of a head of state.

A jape? I'll buy that and I don't believe it was ill-intentioned - if certainly thoughtless. Again, what is funny about a sick, pregnant woman and why put an underling in what is at the least an invidious position?

Are there some obscure issues of "free speech" that I'm not seeing?

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):
If we're going to say that the fear of losing her job drove her to take her own life, why shouldn't the hospital (who is much more likely to be aware of her mental state) take some blame for ever letting her think that that was a possibility?

I agree. But what did the DJ's think was funny about putting an underling in that position?

So mostly (again) I am scratching my head that the lawyers for the radio station approved the tape for broadcast.

mariner

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-12-07 15:55:39 and read 4890 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):
You seem to be confusing endless torment or abuse with a one-time prank.

And you seem to be under the impression that 1 enormous embarrassment can not psychologically destroy a person in an instant. There is no specific number of of times you have to be made fun of for you to break.

Some care givers entire culture and self worth can be based on never being publicy shamed or ridiculed, After a life time of training and tending to people she is given what she would consider a prestigious role of being one of the nurses to help Royalty and in one moment her absolute joy and dream is turned into the butt of the worlds latest joke. The negative power of Thrusting someone who had no intention to become part of the media limelight out there for the world to see and mock just for a laugh is not to be underestimated. As has been mentioned plenty of times in the very least they knew they were putting an innocent health workers job at risk by undertaking this prank. Is it worth the destruction of someones future?

I don't care what anybody says there is no amusement to be had prank calling a hospital. They would have totally been aware that they were going to cause misery of some sort.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-12-07 15:56:02 and read 4894 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 42):
It is not reasonable that you can play pathetic (and illegal) games without understanding that you are hurting people in order to be "cute" on the air.

There's a difference between making someone look like an idiot and driving them to kill themselves. One does not follow the other.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 42):
You might put up some type of argument that these two sh*ts are oh, so innocent,

They're guilty of low-brow humor, sure. And guilty of impersonating someone else to get access to medical data as well. But guilty of causing someone to take their own life? That's too far.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-12-07 15:58:41 and read 4884 times.

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 43):
They didn't do this out of malice, they were just trying to get a cheap joke like they do every other day. Blaming them for someone's suicide is way out of line.

Whats the defense of them knowingly putting her job at risk, Trying to breach patient confidentiality? They knew full well what they were doing and they are part of the "media" you are trying to blame. Folks like these 2 are the gutter level of the media, Getting joy from ruining other peoples lives for a laugh.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2012-12-07 16:00:20 and read 4880 times.

One can blame the Aussie DJ's but I would also put blame on the hospital for not taking proper security and medical privacy precautions. I know in the USA hospitals and their staffs cannot disclose any thing about a patient to the media and if the do, they face significant civil and even criminal penalties (HIPAA). I know where such disclosures of of some celebrities in the USA by hospital staff led to their been fired and the hospital or other facility has faced stiff fines as well. I suspect similar laws and penalties exist in the UK/EU. I also doubt a member Royal Family would call the hospital, more likely they would have called the Prince directly per certain security protocols.

As to the Nurse taking her own life, if she was not a UK citizen, she could have been deported for her violation and out of the shame and fear of being forced out, unfortunately chose to take her life. She made a terrible mistake and should have deferred the call to her supervisor.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: A346Dude
Posted 2012-12-07 16:10:58 and read 4870 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 47):
Whats the defense of them knowingly putting her job at risk, Trying to breach patient confidentiality? They knew full well what they were doing and they are part of the "media" you are trying to blame. Folks like these 2 are the gutter level of the media, Getting joy from ruining other peoples lives for a laugh.

When you accept a freebie from a cashier you are knowingly putting their job at risk. Are you then responsible if they get caught by their boss? What if they then kill themselves over it? That's pretty implausible, but arguably no more so than what actually happened.

That's what being employed is about: you try to do your best, sometimes you break the rules a little, sometimes you make a mistake. If you're generally a good employee in 99% of cases you won't be fired even if you mess up once in a while, and in this case all the evidence indicates the nurse was in no danger of being fired. But she killed herself anyways, almost certainly for reasons well beyond this incident.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: vikkyvik
Posted 2012-12-07 16:24:18 and read 4855 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 38):
Its total BS, So lets use an example of all the kids who kill themselves after endless torment and bullying or being abused by parents.. its their own fault because they are the ones who took their own life to get away from misery. You cant judge someone like that who is desperate to escape such a situation. You can however place blame with those who cause the situation. In this case the whole situation would not be relevant if 2 morons in australia didn't think ruining someone else's career and ultimately life was worth 2 minutes of lowsy gutter level humour.

It's not total BS, and yes you can place (at least partial) blame. Ultimately, it's one's own decision how one chooses to deal with a particular matter, whether that method is seeking help, committing suicide, lashing out, getting revenge, whatever.

Now, kids are obviously a different story; their brains (and therefore coping and decision-making mechanisms) aren't fully developed. But at some point, we have to set a boundary for when one is treated as an adult. In the US, it's typically 18 (or 21 for alcohol, for some stupid reason). Obviously, life isn't black-and-white; I'm usually the first person to say that. But from a legal standpoint, barring mental illness, etc., you just have to assume people are adults at some point.

Anyway, we're not talking about kids, are we?

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 40):
The potential for media focus was pretty clear I think, so while you're right it's not easy to predict how draconian or otherwise the management would be at the hospital it is nonetheless a distinct possibility that one might consider.

Did the nurse(s) involved follow proper procedure? If they did, then I don't see why their job(s) would be in danger. If they didn't, obviously there might be repercussions, but I'm still not sure how the DJs are at fault for that.

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 43):
How about instead of chastising the DJs for a possibility nobody would have considered in foresight in a million years, we look at the actual causes of this? Namely an insane media-driven culture and one person's depression.

  

Although I can't blame culture for this either, for the same reason I can't blame the DJs.

Quoting Mir (Reply 46):
There's a difference between making someone look like an idiot and driving them to kill themselves. One does not follow the other.

Absolutely. It comes down to how well the "victim" is able to cope with such situations.

Not to mention, if I use this thread as a sample, literally NO ONE has said the nurse was an idiot. I'd imagine most people feel the same way. Even those of us refusing to blame the DJs aren't saying that the nurse was an idiot, or acted like an idiot.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2012-12-07 16:28:04 and read 4852 times.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 50):
Not to mention, if I use this thread as a sample, literally NO ONE has said the nurse was an idiot. I'd imagine most people feel the same way. Even those of us refusing to blame the DJs aren't saying that the nurse was an idiot, or acted like an idiot.

Well, you live and you learn mate. I didn't label either the DJs or the nurse an idiot perhaps in part because I actually took on board some of the viewpoints in the thread I assume you're thinking of - and that's partly what we're here to do - learn a bit from discussion.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-12-07 16:32:16 and read 4792 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
By not trying to do anything entertaining for fear that someone might take things too seriously and kill themselves?

There is nothing entertaining about what the DJs did. At best it was juvenile and crass, at worst it is a ill-advised attempt to invade other people's privacy.

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
. No need to brand them as horrible people the way I've seen some doing

They are not horrible people, but they are stupid and irresponsible. They epitomise much of what is wrong with the media these days.

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
But since suicide is a reasonable reaction to almost nothing

I find it difficult to accept that you are insinuating (albeit unintentionally perhaps) that somehow the poor woman was acting unreasonably, based on your value which is very different from hers.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 29):
By making a phone call? Out of curiousity, Is there some malicious intent clause or something?

By invading other people's privacy. Healthcare workers are bound by confidentiality agreement. Namely, the patient's information is private and no one else, even the closest family members, can obtain the information without the patient's consent. If the incident happened in Australia and the Royal Family decided to sue, the nurse and the receptionist involved would be almost indefensible legally.

Quoting Mir (Reply 35):
You're saying all this as if they expected this outcome. I'll bet you they didn't expect anything close.

They'd be monsters if they knew this would happen and still went ahead. Yes, they might not have expected this tragic outcome, but they would/should have anticipated the stress of caring for Kate, the world-wide media coverage this prank call would certainly cause and the associated negative consequences (You can't argue there would likely be any positive outcome for the nurse should their prank call succeed.) They cleared it with their lawyer so they thought about covering their own a$$, but they had no respect and no thought for the nurse about the consequences their act of stupidity would cause her.

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
So you'd have to first think that she might lose her job (unlikely), and then think that it would drive her to take her own life (very unlikely). In other words, it's doubly unlikely, and outside the realm of plausibility.

Firstly, I would think there was a real possibility she would lose her job. The Royal Family was gracious but her employer might or might not be so kind.
Secondly, losing a job is a very stressful event. Maybe she was a single mum looking after two kids and the only source of income of the family? Who is going to pay for mortgage/rent/grocery etc?
Thirdly, healthcare industry is a very stressful environment. Nurses/doctors have to deal with the psychological stress associated with long working hours, often isolated working environment, dealing with life and death and other tragic circumstances in life etc. All these take a big mental toll on them. Doctors committing suicide are not rare events(in fact, it is such a problem medical school nowadays have lectures and seminars just to teach de-stressing techniques and suicide prevention), and these are not just doctors from a particular race or races who place a lot of importance in pride either.

As a healthcare worker myself I found it absolutely revolting that 1. After this tragedy there are still people who think this prank call is entertaining and 2. The behaviour of the DJs are somehow excusable because they were not smart enough to anticipate the consequences of their action.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: PC12Fan
Posted 2012-12-07 16:34:39 and read 4791 times.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 31):
Umm, what do you know about her circumstances beyond this incident, or indeed in the context of her life how precisely this affected her??

Umm, right back atcha.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 31):
Nevermind the fact that every suicide is a tragedy.....

Agreed.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 32):
She may have feared for current employment which her family depends on?

It was sated that this was not the case at all.

Quoting Mir (Reply 35):
There's a big difference between leaving offensive messages on someone's answering machine and asking "how is Kate doing?"

  

Quoting Mir (Reply 35):
No, if she hadn't taken her own life she wouldn't be dead.

        

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 42):
Reality is that if these two sh*t had not played their games she would still be living a normal life and taking care of patients.

Again, by just asking how she was??

The fact of the matter is this, this was a completely unnecessary death. Tragic? Without a doubt. But all this bickering energy should be focused on the hospital itself. They wouldn't have even got to her if the call had been correctly screened - which it wasn't. We're talking about a member of the Royal Family for God's sake.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-12-07 16:42:19 and read 4776 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 44):
There are issues of patient confidentiality but the nurse who gave out that information is not the nurse who committed suicide.

The articles I've read say that it was.

Quoting mariner (Reply 44):
Are there some obscure issues of "free speech" that I'm not seeing?

I'm sure there are issues with what the free speech laws are in Australia, but I'm not going to get into that (since I don't know what they are) - I'm just going with what principles I feel are morally correct.

Quoting mariner (Reply 44):
But what did the DJ's think was funny about putting an underling in that position?

Because that's what a prank call is: putting someone in an uncomfortable position in order for others to hear, and be amused by, their reaction. In this case it's a bit more complicated than that, because nothing the nurse said was really that funny - what was funny is that they were able to get through to her. That means they had to fool not only the nurse but the hospital switchboard operator as well.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 48):
As to the Nurse taking her own life, if she was not a UK citizen, she could have been deported for her violation and out of the shame and fear of being forced out, unfortunately chose to take her life.

Which is ridiculous - she made an honest mistake that she was goaded into making, and to deport her for it would be the pinnacle of insanity. And the hospital should have gone to bat for her if that even became a possibility (and they might have done, or at least tried to - I don't know for sure).

-Mir

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-12-07 16:46:04 and read 4767 times.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 50):

Anyway, we're not talking about kids, are we?

Nope but I was using it as an example that it is not the victims fault they have been pushed into such a desperate situation..

Why is a vulnerable person of any age less worthy of sympathy just because they are older doesnt mean they can easily deal with world wide mockery and the personal sense of shame any better.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 52):
myself I found it absolutely revolting that 1. After this tragedy there are still people who think this prank call is entertaining and 2. The behaviour of the DJs are somehow excusable because they were not smart enough to anticipate the consequences of their action.

I could churn on endlessly about my view of these people but you have pretty much summed up my view on them in 1 and 2. Those who think this kind of thing is amusing and those who act it out are my definition of a loser.

At the end of the day the more and more acceptable it becomes to gain pleasure from mocking or making someone else feel worthless the less the human race deserves a home like planet earth.

We can find stuff to laugh about without destroying other peoples lives.. I digress.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2012-12-07 16:48:43 and read 4768 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 54):
to deport her for it would be the pinnacle of insanity

She wouldn't be deported for the mistake. If she lost her job she might be deported because she no longer worked for the employer sponsering her work visa, which would render her visa invalid. That's not insane, it's the rules which apply to such visas. Major caveat though - we don't know her immigration status and therefore it's just speculation talking about deportation.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Ken777
Posted 2012-12-07 16:48:43 and read 4768 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):
You seem to be confusing endless torment or abuse with a one-time prank.

Not really. There is a dead body that clearly shows that prank was not so innocent.

Quoting Mir (Reply 46):
There's a difference between making someone look like an idiot and driving them to kill themselves.

Not this time. Not this time.

Quoting Mir (Reply 46):
They're guilty of low-brow humor, sure.

They, and their radio station, are responsible for a woman's death.

Quoting Mir (Reply 46):
But guilty of causing someone to take their own life? That's too far.

There is a body in the morgue that disproves that argument.

Reality is it looks like the station and their DJs make a habit of these games - the station is already on probation for their behavior. Hopefully the Aussies will shut them down. It would certainly raise the reputation of Australia if they do.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: PC12Fan
Posted 2012-12-07 17:08:54 and read 4733 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 52):
Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 29):
By making a phone call? Out of curiousity, Is there some malicious intent clause or something?

By invading other people's privacy.

Understood, thanks for that.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
They, and their radio station, are responsible for a woman's death.

They didn't pull the trigger.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-12-07 17:22:33 and read 4713 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 52):
There is nothing entertaining about what the DJs did. At best it was juvenile and crass

It was definitely juvenile and crass, yes. But radio DJs are often juvenile and crass.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 52):
I find it difficult to accept that you are insinuating (albeit unintentionally perhaps) that somehow the poor woman was acting unreasonably, based on your value which is very different from hers.

It's never rational to take one's own life, except perhaps in the case of great physical pain. That said, those who do it obviously do it because they think it's the right thing to do. If I'm insinuating any irrationality on her part, it's because I think that if she could have been able to take a step back and look at the situation from afar rather than in the heat of the moment, she wouldn't have chosen to take her life. But she was clearly very deeply hurt, and I don't begrudge her that in the least.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 52):
They'd be monsters if they knew this would happen and still went ahead.

Absolutely. But there's no way they could have known, or even suspected, that this might happen.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 52):
Firstly, I would think there was a real possibility she would lose her job. The Royal Family was gracious but her employer might or might not be so kind.

If that's the case, then the hospital should be held at least as much to blame as the radio station, if not more so. She was their employee, and it's their job to look after her welfare.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 52):
Secondly, losing a job is a very stressful event.

I'm aware. I've had it happen to me, because of an honest mistake that I made. And I was convinced it was career-ending. That doesn't mean it's a direct road from there to suicide - I'm still here, obviously (and, BTW, it wasn't career-ending), and so are a lot of people who lose their jobs. So there had to have been some other factors at work that the radio station could not have known about.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 56):
She wouldn't be deported for the mistake. If she lost her job she might be deported because she no longer worked for the employer sponsering her work visa, which would render her visa invalid.

All the more reason for her employer to be supportive rather than vindictive (and I should make clear that I am not saying they weren't supportive).

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 55):
At the end of the day the more and more acceptable it becomes to gain pleasure from mocking or making someone else feel worthless the less the human race deserves a home like planet earth.

That's what comedy is. There is comedy in good taste and comedy in bad taste, and this is one of those instances where the joke started off innocently enough but had consequences far beyond what was intended - it's not the first time that's happened, it won't be the last. But that doesn't mean that the comedy field should just shut down because someone might get offended by a certain joke enough to kill themselves. It's going to be a long, boring existence if that happens.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
There is a dead body that clearly shows that prank was not so innocent.

By that logic, no death can ever be accidental. That simply doesn't square with reality.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-07 17:28:01 and read 4714 times.

Yesterday I heard a recording of the actual call - but it now appears to have been taken off the net. However, here's a transcript:-

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertain...-1.1215498?localLinksEnabled=false

On the face of it, the pranksters kept it short and put no pressure on the nurse; and they didn't ask for any confidential information. Nor (from the recording I heard, before it was taken off the net) did the nurse seem to be at all worried or upset; certainly not to the point where she'd be likely to go home and decide to take her own life.

I suspect that there's already a bit of a 'coverup' going on. Very possibly the nurse will have put the phone down and said something like, "Hey, I just had a phone call from the Queen!" And someone more senior may have reacted in a pretty heavy-handed way?

[Edited 2012-12-07 17:40:54]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-07 17:28:32 and read 4709 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 54):
The articles I've read say that it was.

Then we have read different articles.

Quoting Mir (Reply 54):
I'm sure there are issues with what the free speech laws are in Australia, but I'm not going to get into that (since I don't know what they are) - I'm just going with what principles I feel are morally correct.

Then we have a different morality.

Quoting Mir (Reply 54):
Because that's what a prank call is

I understand exactly what a prank call is. I hope they don't usually concern women in the first trimester in hospital when the status of the foetus is unknown.

I hope they don't usually concern impersonating a head of state. I hope they don't usually concern a husband whose mother died in a situation where the media may not have been entirely blameless.

It's quite a trifecta.

mariner

[Edited 2012-12-07 17:51:49]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-07 17:59:24 and read 4683 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 60):
On the face of it, the pranksters kept it short and put no pressure on the nurse; and they didn't ask for any confidential information. Nor (from the recording I heard, before it was taken off the net) did the nurse seem to be at all worried or upset; certainly not to the point where she'd be likely to go home and decide to take her own life.

Any medical information is confidential.

Once again, the nurse who committed suicide was not the duty nurse who gave out the information. By the time the call reached the duty nurse, she would have had every reason to believe she was talking to the Queen, however odd it may have sounded.

The nurse who committed suicide had originally answered the phone and put the call through to the duty nurse, as is clearly seen in the transcript and is confirmed in this article:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/1208/1224327654984.html

“Hello, good morning, King Edward VII Hospital,” said Ms Saldanha, who was filling in as receptionist on the night shift.

“Oh hello there, could I please speak to Kate, please, my granddaughter,” said Mel Greig, a disc-jockey with the Sydney-based 2Day FM radio station.

Ms Saldanha, believing the caller to be Queen Elizabeth, put the call through to a colleague who gave details of the duchess’s condition."


mariner

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: vikkyvik
Posted 2012-12-07 18:02:45 and read 4676 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 55):
Nope but I was using it as an example that it is not the victims fault they have been pushed into such a desperate situation..

I never said it was completely their fault. I said it's their decision when they get out of it, and how they go about it.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-07 18:08:21 and read 4671 times.

Thanks for the correction, mariner.

But it tends rather to confirm my basic point. Surely the hospital's switchboard should have been 'manned' at all times by fully-briefed people, not by a nurse 'filling in'?

And we still 'need to know' how more senior people reacted when they heard about the incident? Not just to Ms Saldanha, but to the ward nurse who gave out the information?

[Edited 2012-12-07 18:24:33]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-12-07 18:26:40 and read 4646 times.

I don't like these sort of radio shows and don't listen to them. As a consequence I don't know what was or wasn't said on air, though I am aware that the radio show boasted about its success at pretending to be the Queen. I don't condone these sorts of shows but I won't rush to join the pack baying for blood . While other TV, radio and print media hacks stand on pavements, go through dustbins and generally harass in order to get a scoop, these DJ's tried a different approach. Could they have reasonably foreseen that someone would subsequently die?

There is a lot of speculation going on as to what was in the nurse's mind, her immigration status, whether she would be sacked, etc. But in apportioning blame can we be so sure as to claim that the DJs are solely responsible? It is sad that the nurse died in an apparent suicide, but who knows whether in three or four weeks time something else may have been the trigger?

Do we know for a fact that other members of staff at the hospital or other friends outside work didn't make "jokes" about her talking to the "Queen"? The staff are human beings and humans often like to tease their friends. It would be a rare Anetter who could claim never to have done so. So are any staff who may have made jokes free of blame or are they equally culpable? Sure, they didn't make the original call but are we certain that what some staff may have seen as mild ribbing may have also contributed? Should they also lose their jobs?

While I feel sad that someone has died and left children motherless, I think much of the reaction is a bit over the top. If the nurse had not killed herself, most people would have accepted that it was a prank, a prank in poor taste maybe, but it would have all been forgotten in a few days as the next scandal diverted our fleeting attention.

[Edited 2012-12-07 19:17:36]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-07 18:30:04 and read 4648 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 64):
But it tends rather to confirm my basic point. Surely the hospital's switchboard should have been 'manned' at all times by fully-briefed people, not by a nurse 'filling in'?

It's quite a small hospital and it was 5.30 am in London. I dunno, it may have been a fill-in or someone may have been off sick. It doesn't really change anything.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 64):
And we still 'need to know' how more senior people reacted when they heard about the incident?

We know how Prince Charles reacted originally - with great good humour - and no complaint was made by Buckingham Palace.

I'm guessing Prince William was less than thrilled but, as above, there would be reasons for that.

mariner

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-07 18:42:42 and read 4643 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 66):
I'm guessing Prince William was less than thrilled

Yes, that's very possible.

Seems to have been 'one of those things,' really. Ms Saldanha only knew how to put calls through, not how to 'verify' numbers, callers etc.. And the ward nurse probably assumed that because the call had been put through, it was a 'kosher' call from the Queen......

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 65):
Do we know for a fact that other members of staff at the hospital or other friends outside work didn't make "jokes" about her talking to the "Queen"? The staff are human beings and humans often like to tease their friends.

That's very possible too, Quokkas.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2012-12-07 18:54:56 and read 4629 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 32):
Without their call she wouldnt be dead.. They are solely responsible for the whole situation.

There are a lot of people that you could put at fault. How about the hospital, who didn't have a receptionist on duty who perhaps would be trained to make sure the caller was genuine. Are they at fault? One could claim that if she wasn't on duty that night, she would still be alive, so its the person responsible for rosters fault.

No, one cannot blame them, and we shouldn't blame the radio hosts, the joke might have been crass, but it was a joke that in most cases wouldn't result in something this serious.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 42):
Reality is that if these two sh*t had not played their games she would still be living a normal life and taking care of patients.

Again, if someone was in such a position that a prank call (and one where all she did was transfer the call) would result in death, there must be some other underlying problems. So, I would hazard a guess that she might have been far from living a normal life.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 45):
And you seem to be under the impression that 1 enormous embarrassment can not psychologically destroy a person in an instant. There is no specific number of of times you have to be made fun of for you to break.

I don't really see how enormously embarrassing this was. Not only did she never state her name (leaving embarrassment to her coworkers and possibly friends), she wasn't the main culprit, it was another nurse, who would likely be on the receiving end of any embarrassment. I will admit however, that the nurse who accepted the call could have been given the blame and possibly have feared for her job, even though that was not the case.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 52):
Firstly, I would think there was a real possibility she would lose her job. The Royal Family was gracious but her employer might or might not be so kind.

As I see it, the employer should be as much to blame as the DJ host (none really, but more focus should be on the employer). Did she have unreasonable reasons to fear for her job? Did she have the right training for a reception role, especially with high-interest patients? Did the hospital monitor employee mental health correctly (really big in hospitals where mistakes could be fatal)?

Anyway, tragic story, but I put no blame on the DJ's. I'm sure they are feeling guilty already and don't need any more punishment. Although, I wouldn't be surprised if they do get fired, not because they should, but because this situation has attracted too much media attention.

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Ken777
Posted 2012-12-07 19:05:31 and read 4626 times.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 58):
They didn't pull the trigger.
But they drove her to pick up the gun.

And for what? A few laughs?

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-07 19:41:47 and read 4599 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 69):
And for what? A few laughs?

Not often that we disagree, Ken777 - but these people were running an early-morning chat show. I'm sure that all of us, in our time, have occasionally been grateful for some entertainment on the car radio while driving to work at the crack of dawn?

And even the guys concerned were 'flabbergasted' that their call was going through:-

"MICHAEL CHRISTIAN: Are they putting us through?

"GREIG: Yes.

"CHRISTIAN: If this has worked, it’s the easiest prank call we’ve ever made. Your accent sucked by the way, I just wanted you to know."


My opinion is 'hardening' a bit. Responsibility for the whole business appears to rest with the hospital administrators, who should have made certain that this sort of thing could never happen. Especially when they had 'prominente' - 'royalty' - in the place.......

As a matter of fact, when I was working in the UK, I do recall that we once got a call from a 'royal.' But he didn't just ring up - a secretary rang first, to arrange a specific time for the call, so that we had everyone involved 'on deck' to answer it.

A professional switchboard operator would probably have known about that procedure.......

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Ken777
Posted 2012-12-07 20:07:43 and read 4574 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 70):
My opinion is 'hardening' a bit.

When it comes to publicly humiliating someone my position is the one my parents drilled into me - you simply don't do it. It is more than a matter of good manners, it is a situation of simple decency.

BTW, my late brother-in-law was an announcer in WA (mainly PER) for a quarter of a century before he died 30 years ago. He managed to rate at the top (normally 1st or 2nd) on a continuous basis and "decency" & "civility" were probably the first terms most listeners would use to describe him.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2012-12-07 20:27:29 and read 4561 times.

Quoting idealstandard (Reply 13):
The way I see it is that if they hadn't done it, she'd still be alive.

Perhaps we don't know, I would like to think that there are more factors than just this to make a person take their life but I can't speak for everyone.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18):
Quoting alberchico (Reply 2):
Was she in danger of losing her job because she fell for the prank ?

No. Not at all.

Are you sure of that?? The name of the hospital was probably revealed and the fact is was a private hospital means that it is now known all over the world.

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
For Prince William, I assume it brings back fairly ugly memories of what happened to his mother and the relentless pursuit of her by the paparazzi.

And it was probably inevitable that eventually, one day, an underling was going to get caught in the cross fire of these so-called "prank" calls and this radio station was already operating under probation for previous "pranks."
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 32):
Without their call she wouldnt be dead.. They are solely responsible for the whole situation.

People don't take their lives for just one reason IMO, if this is what made this woman do it then she was very sick. I have been humiliated by things similar to this and am still around and quite happy.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 38):
Its total BS, So lets use an example of all the kids who kill themselves after endless torment and bullying or being abused by parents.. its their own fault because they are the ones who took their own life to get away from misery. You cant judge someone like that who is desperate to escape such a situation. You can however place blame with those who cause the situation. In this case the whole situation would not be relevant if 2 morons in australia didn't think ruining someone else's career and ultimately life was worth 2 minutes of lowsy gutter level humour.

It hopefully will come out what actually happened but most people in their 40's (this nurse was 46) do not take their lives because they were humiliated. There were plenty of issues with this nurse and just because two DJ's took the piss doesn't mean they should be held responsible.

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
I don't know if it's predictable. It's certainly possible, but I'd say unlikely unless the hospital management was incredibly draconian or the nurse just really bungled her job (and I want to make very clear that I am NOT suggesting that she did - I think she did nothing wrong).

This I think was the biggest issue, the hospital management and they are covering it up that they probably let this poor nurse have it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 42):
She was a nurse taking care of her patients and all of a sudden she is known around the world for being the blunt of a rancid hoax. The two sh*ts who played the hoax are the ones who put her in a position when they played the hoax.

Reality is that if these two sh*t had not played their games she would still be living a normal life and taking care of patients.

Who knows, a random person could have insulted her 10 minutes later and the same thing could have happened. People who kill themselves are usually not right in the head which is the real tragedy  .

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 48):
One can blame the Aussie DJ's but I would also put blame on the hospital for not taking proper security and medical privacy precautions. I know in the USA hospitals and their staffs cannot disclose any thing about a patient to the media and if the do, they face significant civil and even criminal penalties (HIPAA). I know where such disclosures of of some celebrities in the USA by hospital staff led to their been fired and the hospital or other facility has faced stiff fines as well. I suspect similar laws and penalties exist in the UK/EU. I also doubt a member Royal Family would call the hospital, more likely they would have called the Prince directly per certain security protocols.

And had this actually been the Queen and this nurse had told her to get stuffed, it would have created the same controversy. The nurse probably saw this as a lose-lose.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-07 20:39:35 and read 4555 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 70):
My opinion is 'hardening' a bit. Responsibility for the whole business appears to rest with the hospital administrators, who should have made certain that this sort of thing could never happen. Especially when they had 'prominente' - 'royalty' - in the place.......

That makes very little allowance for human frailty.

It is entirely possible that the hospital did have checks and balances in place - given their patient list I'd be surprised if they did not.

But it is possible that the fill-in receptionist got flustered when she heard an imperious voice claiming to be the Queen - and to whom could she turn for help and why, it was outside her experience.

Any person thinking rationally might wonder why HM was calling at that ridiculously early hour but people do get very discombobulated when confronted by Her Maj and the immediate, over-riding instinct is to please and to do as she asks.

And the (male) DJ? He wasn't well known, except as raucous, he'd been with the station one day and (I guess) he wanted to impress. Where were the checks and balances on him, a newbie?

The station lawyers who vetted and approved the tape for broadcast were supposed to be his checks and balances. Given the lost advertizing revenue (Coles and Telstra for starters) this has cost the station, I hope those lawyers are "reconsidering their position."

The article in the SMH makes it clear that the DJ had no ill-intent - he rightly thought Kate was "doing it tough" - but his desire for ratings (or celebrity) overcame those scruples. He has that celebrity now, and I bet he wishes he could turn back time.

It was a series of cock-ups, a confluence of unfortunate events that ended tragically, but driven by one simple fact - that contacting a sick, pregnant woman in hospital qualifies as "entertainment."

mariner

[Edited 2012-12-07 20:46:27]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-12-07 21:09:20 and read 4535 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 59):
But radio DJs are often juvenile and crass.

It doesn't give them the right to attempt to access other people's confidential information. It doesn't give them the right to cause distress to others. We have had a particularly nasty radio broadcaster calling the current PM be killed here in Australia. One can say he was being crass as well, some even saw it as a joke. By accepting and normalising this kind of behaviour that ought not be to acceptable we accept the degradation of values, standards and morality.

Quoting Mir (Reply 59):
It's never rational to take one's own life, except perhaps in the case of great physical pain.

I am afraid this constitutes a very limited view of suicide and its causes. In any event, I think we should focus on the circumstances leading to such mental trauma that a human being would decide that to endure it is worse than losing one's life, not whether suicide is justifiable or not.

Quoting Mir (Reply 59):
But there's no way they could have known, or even suspected, that this might happen.

If the patient was Kate Doe, sure. I agree this was an unlikely outcome, but it is not an unimaginable outcome, particularly given the context.

Quoting Mir (Reply 59):
That doesn't mean it's a direct road from there to suicide

But the suicide happened. You didn't do it, I admire your resilience. However, it is not unheard of for people to commit suicide after losing their jobs.

Quoting Mir (Reply 59):
If that's the case, then the hospital should be held at least as much to blame as the radio station, if not more so. She was their employee, and it's their job to look after her welfare.

No, I am talking about what the DJs should have considered. They should have known that their action could lead to someone losing their job. They said they did not think they would succeed. The right thing to do, once they realised they succeeded, was to terminate the phone call. Failing this, they should not have broadcast the call. Anyone with half a brain would know by doing so considerable embarrassment, stress and possible or even probable disciplinary action would result. But hey, they wanted to score their cheap exclusive instead.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 68):
As I see it, the employer should be as much to blame as the DJ host (none really, but more focus should be on the employer). Did she have unreasonable reasons to fear for her job? Did she have the right training for a reception role, especially with high-interest patients? Did the hospital monitor employee mental health correctly (really big in hospitals where mistakes could be fatal)?

I cannot comment on the first few points since I have no knowledge of the action taken, if any, by the employer. However, I take issue with placing no blame on the DJs. They had the opportunity to do the right thing, but chose a course of action that ruined the life of not only the nurse's but also her family's and those who care about her forever. Note I am not saying they should be punished. The most important lesson is to learn from this tragedy and improve our standard, if these kind of behaviour is deemed acceptable or faultless, then the society we live in is seriously ill.
Finally, suicidal intentions is not always plain for everyone to see. Many who commit suicide lead a normal life with no overt signs of despair and hopelessness. This is why when such tragedy occurs everyone is shocked because they didn't see it coming.

[Edited 2012-12-07 21:12:47]

[Edited 2012-12-07 21:13:25]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Pyrex
Posted 2012-12-07 22:51:37 and read 4507 times.

And monarchy claims another victim... this poor woman probably had been led to believe that the sick, pregnant woman in her ward and her husband were better than everyone else, and so accidentally releasing some information about them was somehow an insufferable shame which, if this had been about anyone else other than Kate and Billie-Boy, would be ok.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-07 23:05:05 and read 4499 times.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 75):
And monarchy claims another victim... this poor woman probably had been led to believe that the sick, pregnant woman in her ward and her husband were better than everyone else, and so accidentally releasing some information about them was somehow an insufferable shame which, if this had been about anyone else other than Kate and Billie-Boy, would be ok.

One mo' time - the nurse who committed suicide did not release any medical information about any patient to anyone.

mariner

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: bwest
Posted 2012-12-07 23:45:52 and read 4483 times.

I don't know how the laws in Australia are, but in Belgium it's illegal to claim to have a certain title, be it police officer, judge or queen, when you don't actually have the title. If such a law exists in Australia, I can imagine the DJ's being prosecuted for breaching it. Especially as the queen is still the head of state in Australia...

I'm feeling sad for the nurse. The prank pulled on her was childish and not funny. The pressure she must have felt from being at the centre of so much international attention, must have left here with a big feeling of humiliation and failure.

The DJ's couldn't have expected this, but what they did is just a result of a long process of pushing the boundaries further and further of what is acceptable for a few laughs. It's time radio presenters take a step back and think about what they're doing and how it might affect people. Some radio and TV stations overhere also keep pushing the limits. I hope they'll return to common sense and just good manners before something tragic like this case happens again.

Also, yes: Catherine is pregnant. Get over it. The media is going hysterical over it. But only because there's an audience for it. People are so sad

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: AR385
Posted 2012-12-08 00:02:55 and read 4469 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 54):
The articles I've read say that it was.

No, as it has been pointed out, Jacintha was merely the one who answered the call, and transferred it. What I find so baffling is the she just really passed the call on, it was the other nurse, who actually gave all the "confidential" information. Why did she feel so bad about it? Could it be that she was bullied by the other nurses into making her assume responsibility for what could have been deemed by the hospital a major screw up?

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: melpax
Posted 2012-12-08 00:10:37 and read 4467 times.

The station concerned (2Day FM in Sydney) has pulled all advertising after 2 large advertisers pulled their ads from the station. I find it interesting that although the program originated from Sydney, and was networked around the country (the program is aired at night, being a top 40 network the target audience was proably teenage girls..), only the Sydney station has been targeted, not the other stations in the network like Fox FM here in Melbourne.

http://www.theage.com.au/entertainme...prank-backlash-20121208-2b1zy.html

And some grovelling from the CEO of the company that owns the station

http://www.southerncrossaustereo.com.au/

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: czbbflier
Posted 2012-12-08 01:44:46 and read 4410 times.

As a critical incident defuser who deals with crises at work, I'd like to share that this would have been a traumatic incident for the nurse.

Put yourself in her shoes. She gets a cold call from the Queen. The person on the phone sounds like the Queen. To the nurse, the Queen's credentials would have obviously been vetted somewhere- otherwise why would the Queen be speaking with her so candidly- like she is seen to do in her garden parties on TV? There was no indication to her that this was not the Queen.

Then you find out that you have contravened your professional code of ethics by divulging personal information on a patient to someone who was not a family member. Worse, that information was shared with the whole goddamned world. Worse yet, it involves the most important patient this nurse was probably ever going to tend. She probably went from experiencing an absolute highlight of her life to total devastation in seconds.

Never mind the official consequences. Just the roller coaster this nurse was thrust upon by a couple of gagsters in a far-off land who duped her before the entire planet. Believe me, people have committed suicide from events at work that others view as much less far-reaching than this.

The final arbitor in this is that it doesn't matter how traumatic we perceive an event, its reasons or causes, it's how the person in the situation views it and feels about it. Sadly- tragically- this person did not get the help she needed to cope and manage with the impossibly enormous stress that came with this incident. She started to make bad decisions based on whatever she envisioned to be her reality and it got out of control for her very, very quickly.

There are a lot of angry people calling for the DJs' heads. The anger is misguided, however. Pranks and impersonating calls are nothing new, they are not the sign that the World is going to Hell in an Hand basket.

In aviation, we talk about the "Swiss Cheese Effect" when crashes happen. There are layers of redundancy, levels of control, procedures, rules and laws, all acting as a back-up to each other as each has a hole somewhere. When all the holes of all the layers of protection line up, a crash occurs. That is exactly what happened here.

Long before the call was ever placed, lot of things went wrong: The instant the hospital knew it was receiving the Duchess of Cambridge, it should have gone into communications lock-down. It's not like they've never dealt with royals and notable personalities before and even if they haven't- they should have formal communications protocols for such visitors. Buckingham Palace and Clarence House are also possibly culpable as they did not ensure their communications protocols were transmitted and ensured they were enacted by, the hospital. The attending nurse should NEVER, EVER have been given the call- especially when it involved the Queen.

Breakfast radio shows across the planet are filled with this sort of programming and have been for a long time. They are, because they are popular and sell advertising. Regulators and the courts, often after the fact, deal with the consequences of these actions, and those in the public eye engage enormous resources to ensure they're not punked. I'm sure that for every successful prank that makes it on the air, there are thousands that are foiled. Sadly, very sadly, this one did not get caught before it got on air.

Then, once it did make it to air, nobody was there to support the nurse who had initially been let down by the hospital's lax protocols, and then ignored as it scurried to deal with the media storm that followed- a contributing factor itself as well.

I'm sure that the numerous investigations stemming from this tragedy will conclude that in London, at least, every step in the timeline that lead to the nurse's suicide was compromised by an innocent oversight of some sort by all of the involved parties.

Clearly, there were lots of layers of swiss cheese there but, just as with a tragedy in aviation, the holes lined up and we have one self-inflicted death as a result.

The DJs did not kill her. However, their "innocent" prank directly caused her to experience the trauma that lead to her committing suicide, so their actions are liable.

I had been heartened to learn that they apologized shortly after they had aired their prank (it was live, was it not?) long before the suicide. This indicates to me there was no malice intended and they had remorse for what they did. Cynics will say that it was a 'legal' apology- and even if that were the case, it indicates that internally, the radio station acknowledged it had allowed these DJs to go too far. It was- as is the case with all pranks no matter who commits them or on whom they are played- unethical and it crossed the line.

The apology did not mitigate the condition of the nurse, obviously- especially considering that the apology wasn't to the nurse at all. All those involved at the radio station will have to live with their consciences for the rest of their lives. In due course, even if the DJs aren't charged with something like impersonation, or the radio station has its license suspended, the radio station will get hit with a massive law suit in the name of the nurse's family.... and quite possibly the Royal family as well. I'm sure the DJ's lives are ruined. I'm quite sure the radio station will go bankrupt, affecting dozens of other workers and their families.

It is sad that so many lives have been affected negatively from something that should be a joyful (and otherwise un-newsworthy) occasion. I can't imagine the devastation the nurse's husband feels right now. I can't even begin to imagine what it would feel like to lose my mother over something so abstract and removed from family life as this sad situation. I'm quite sure that Kate and Wills are deeply hurt by this. My guess is that even the Queen must feel some pain- it was in her name that the prank was committed against the nurse of her granddaughter-in-law, after all. Then there's the anguish of the families of the DJs and of the officials at the hospital who realize they could have done more to protect her. The list goes on and on.

I feel sorrow that everybody around the nurse at work let her down. I'm sure the powers-that-be at the hospital was more concerned about damage control to protect its image in the face of a global storm than it was about the 'other' victim in all of this. Regretfully, employees are often forgotten when things like this happen.

The Take-Away from this story is twofold:

The first is that there is a reason pranks are unethical. They often have unintended consequences. So for us all, we must consider the consequences of our actions and govern ourselves thus appropriately, thinking of all the people who are negatively affected if the prank goes wrong. I'm no kill-joy: a little levity doesn't hurt. Pranks, however, cross the line.

The second is that if your workplace does not have a formal critical incident defuser program in place to help with workers who are negatively affected in the workplace by a traumatic incident, start working toward starting one. PM me if you need to to get some ideas where and how to start.

My deepest condolences to the nurse's family and heartfelt best wishes as her family is forced to move on without her.

Peace.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: allrite
Posted 2012-12-08 03:01:09 and read 4376 times.

Surprise, surprise that the DJs were from 2DayFM, the radio station that employs noted fragile ego bully Kyle Sandilands and one not known for any standards of decency. I was so glad when I was finally allowed by my wife to change stations in the car as their content is definitely not suitable for our young child occupant (or, I would argue, anyone), despite being created by those with an intelligence and emotional state of a two year old with problems.

History has shown that radio hosts will do and say dumb things - it's not restricted to 2DayFM. Many of these young announcers are paid to be a little crazy. That's where management needs to step in and monitor behaviour that is going beyond bounds, providing guidance in those cases. I don't see 2DayFM doing that.

Quoting melpax (Reply 79):
I find it interesting that although the program originated from Sydney, and was networked around the country (the program is aired at night, being a top 40 network the target audience was proably teenage girls..), only the Sydney station has been targeted, not the other stations in the network like Fox FM here in Melbourne.

Past efforts by the station/network have always been token in nature, I don't see why they would do anything different this time.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: melpax
Posted 2012-12-08 03:18:38 and read 4363 times.

Quoting allrite (Reply 81):
History has shown that radio hosts will do and say dumb things - it's not restricted to 2DayFM. Many of these young announcers are paid to be a little crazy. That's where management needs to step in and monitor behaviour that is going beyond bounds, providing guidance in those cases. I don't see 2DayFM doing that.

Apparently the call was pre-recorded & was vetted by the network's lawyers & management before being put to air. And they kept playing ads promoting the call until early this morning - obviously an automated operation during the overnight hours. Can see this being the end of prank calls on radio.

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/...rs-after-death-20121208-2b1y1.html

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2012-12-08 03:49:54 and read 4347 times.

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 80):
Then you find out that you have contravened your professional code of ethics by divulging personal information on a patient to someone who was not a family member. Worse, that information was shared with the whole goddamned world. Worse yet, it involves the most important patient this nurse was probably ever going to tend. She probably went from experiencing an absolute highlight of her life to total devastation in seconds.

Never mind the official consequences. Just the roller coaster this nurse was thrust upon by a couple of gagsters in a far-off land who duped her before the entire planet. Believe me, people have committed suicide from events at work that others view as much less far-reaching than this.

There is just one problem with this. She never divulged this information, just transferred the call to another nurse. So, she did not break the code of ethics, and at most helped another nurse break the code of ethics. I would hazard a guess that she didn't even see Kate, or at most very briefly, as she was not a senior nurse.

The extent of her reaction seems way beyond what I can conceive for an action as simple as transferring a call which she believed to be from the queen. For me that says she was close to the edge and this might have just been the final push.

I bet listeners to the show wouldn't have thought twice about what was happening, and possibly thought it quite funny how easily the presenters got through, although nothing really was told other than Kate is fine (it is clear they tried to go as far as to talk directly to Kate). And I'm sure there are plenty of radio shows on air at this exact moment doing things that are just as likely to end as tragically as this, but nobody will think twice of it due to the tragic event not happening.

Personally, I will set this event as tragic and unfortunate, but not place blame with anyone, but I know that the radio hosts will be blaming themselves and that is punishment enough. They shouldn't lose their jobs for this, but will be surprised if they don't due to the PR scandal which that particular radio station cannot afford at the moment.

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2012-12-08 04:31:46 and read 4320 times.

{quote=bwest,reply=77]The DJ's couldn't have expected this, but what they did is just a result of a long process of pushing the boundaries further and further of what is acceptable for a few laughs. It's time radio presenters take a step back and think about what they're doing and how it might affect people. Some radio and TV stations overhere also keep pushing the limits. I hope they'll return to common sense and just good manners before something tragic like this case happens again.

Also, yes: Catherine is pregnant. Get over it. The media is going hysterical over it. But only because there's an audience for it. People are so sad[/quote]

  
At my place of employment, the legal department of a government agency, from time to time I have had to cover reception when the regular one is out sick or for lunch. We have written policies as to the forwarding phone calls to the department's general number to specific attorneys or staff and allowing visitors onto our floor. This is to keep out sales persons, disgruntled ex-employees, general public persons who may have bad intents against us or the person they are trying to reach or general nutcases. I know if I make an error in handling a call, I can be fired (I am a 'contract' emploee there) or otherwise get a chewing out I don't want or need. Yes, one can make errors, no one is perfect, but sometimes the failures in their actions can have consequences no one expects.

One of the other factors here is the cult of celebrity and of the Royals. I am quite sure that while many in Australia are interested in the lives of the UK Royals, there are probably a lot who don't respect them and like to bash the media frenzy as to them.

By the way, is the main station or any of the syndication stations involve in this 'stunt' connected with Rupert Murdoch ?

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: melpax
Posted 2012-12-08 04:59:04 and read 4311 times.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 84):
By the way, is the main station or any of the syndication stations involve in this 'stunt' connected with Rupert Murdoch ?

No, he's never been involved with Radio here.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: PC12Fan
Posted 2012-12-08 06:28:49 and read 4268 times.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 69):
But they drove her to pick up the gun.

I knew I left an open door there.

I'm starting to think there's a new aroma starting to brew over this - and something stinks.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-12-08 08:48:21 and read 4220 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 74):
It doesn't give them the right to cause distress to others.

If they really thought they were going to cause that much distress, I doubt they'd have made the call (or at least aired it). It's not reasonable to expect one to limit one's own actions just because something you might do has a remote probability of causing distress to someone else.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 74):
We have had a particularly nasty radio broadcaster calling the current PM be killed here in Australia. One can say he was being crass as well, some even saw it as a joke.

Calling for someone to be killed is incredibly inappropriate. But there's a world of difference between that and what these guys did. They did not call for anyone to be killed.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 74):
However, it is not unheard of for people to commit suicide after losing their jobs.

It isn't unheard of, but it's incredibly rare. I'd guess that only a fraction of a percent of people who lose their jobs take that step. You can't foresee that someone would take their own life just because you do something that might, in an extreme circumstance, cause someone to lose their job.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 74):
No, I am talking about what the DJs should have considered. They should have known that their action could lead to someone losing their job.

Could, yes. But still very unlikely, unless you had pre-existing knowledge that the hospital had a draconian policy toward those who made honest mistakes.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 78):
No, as it has been pointed out, Jacintha was merely the one who answered the call, and transferred it.

Then the articles I read were unclear, and I stand corrected.

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 80):

This is an excellent post, and I agree with everything said except for this:

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 80):
The DJs did not kill her. However, their "innocent" prank directly caused her to experience the trauma that lead to her committing suicide, so their actions are liable.

If you're speaking in the legal sense, then I don't believe they are liable. If you're speaking in the moral sense, then I'm sure they do feel some responsibility (I certainly would), and that's going to be quite a burden for them to bear for a long time.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Ken777
Posted 2012-12-08 10:39:55 and read 4176 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 72):
Are you sure of that??

The Royal Family has not filed a complaint, Prince Charles worked hard to minimize it in a public comment. And the hospital has been clear in their statements that this was a very good nurse.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 72):
It hopefully will come out what actually happened but most people in their 40's (this nurse was 46) do not take their lives because they were humiliated.

Maybe we need to look at cultural influences, which might have a far more direct impact on her actions.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 72):
There were plenty of issues with this nurse

Were there? I haven't seen anything to indicate this - only some very nice compliments.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 72):
Who knows, a random person could have insulted her 10 minutes later and the same thing could have happened.

There is a huge difference between being publicly humiliated on an international scale and having some local yak insult her amongst the locals. The lady was clearly overwhelmed by the international level, increased because it had the Royal Family involved.

The good news is that major accounts have pulled advertising dollars from the station and the station has stopped advertising in order to avoid further embarrassment of loosing advertisers.

Now it is time for the government to look at not only this issue, but other problems that caused them to be on probation. Termination of the station's license should clearly be on the table.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2012-12-08 12:11:42 and read 4145 times.

To my mind this boils down to yet another mess up by the Royal Protection Squad, so far this year:

Allowing girls to take photos of a nude Prince Harry in a Vegas hotel room.

Not pointing out to Kate that topless sunbathing in France when in sight of a main road was an unwise move.

And now, failing to properly supervise her hospital stay. Calls should have vetted by either a private secretary or a protection officer.

About time there was a serious shake up.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-08 12:17:44 and read 4145 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 89):
To my mind this boils down to yet another mess up by the Royal Protection Squad, so far this year:

It has very little to do with the Royal Protection Squad. The RPS is there to protect their lives - not to tell them how to live their lives.

If Prince Harry wants to get naked in a Las Vegas hotel room, more power to him and that's his business. The RPS is not his behavioural watchdog.

mariner

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-12-08 12:38:52 and read 4130 times.

Royal protection listening to every private incoming phone call to a hospital is just as bad as these 2 cretins posing as a family member to access medical information.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: francoflier
Posted 2012-12-08 12:51:57 and read 4124 times.

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 80):

I agree with all of that, except:

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 80):
This indicates to me there was no malice intended and they had remorse for what they did.

This, as you said, might have been a 'legal' kind of apology. Clearly, their intent was to create a massive international buzz to bring all the spotlights to that particular radio station. They probably planned to go through the apology well before they did the prank, as part of the overall project. The plan worked, until that moment when the unthinkable happened.

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 80):
So for us all, we must consider the consequences of our actions and govern ourselves thus appropriately, thinking of all the people who are negatively affected if the prank goes wrong.

That's more like it. I still think the radio station did not, for an instant, seek to understand the implications of such prank for the involved third parties. Granted, it was not completely obvious such thing could happen, but they could, at least, have envisioned that the professional career of some of the people who let the call through could have been greatly compromised. That enough should have been the off switch, but since the goal was full on dazzle and sparkle, the switch stayed on.

In any case, the dj's and all those involved at the radio station learned their lesson, albeit in the most unfortunate of ways, and won't be pulling anything like that for the rest of their lives. Whether or not they are responsible, they likely feel some of that responsibility, and will have to live with it.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Aesma
Posted 2012-12-08 13:41:59 and read 4099 times.

I have not followed this too closely but from what I've seen I doubt the DJs expected their prank to work, so there was probably not much preparation put into it.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-12-08 16:18:15 and read 4032 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 87):
If they really thought they were going to cause that much distress, I doubt they'd have made the call (or at least aired it).

I agree there was no malice in what the DJs did. However, at the very least they haven't thought through the consequence of their action. I agree that suicide was an unlikely outcome. However, it is entirely, and I repeat entirely foreseeable how much stress broadcasting one's professional slip-up to the whole world in such a high-pressure context would bring. As czbbflier pointed out above, people have been tipped over the edge by less. Some may able to laugh it off, but it doesn't take a genius to understand many may find it incredibly humiliating that one's honest mistake while dealing with possibly the most important client in one's life is now being laughed at by the whole world.

Quoting Mir (Reply 87):
But there's a world of difference between that and what these guys did. They did not call for anyone to be killed.

But their action brings ridicule to another person, they get their rating and audience at the expense of another person's self-esteem. You can't argue that they did not mean for the nurses involved to be the subject of ridicule. They wanted their audience to laugh at the nurses involved (although probably more at the poor nurse that gave out some details).

Quoting Mir (Reply 87):
It isn't unheard of, but it's incredibly rare

It is not incredible rare. Job loss is a very stressful event (as yourself have experienced) and a well-recognised cause of suicide.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ame-death-toll-1-000-suicides.html

Quoting Mir (Reply 87):
Could, yes. But still very unlikely, unless you had pre-existing knowledge that the hospital had a draconian policy toward those who made honest mistakes.

Unlikely? The hospital is one of the leading private hospitals in the UK. It is not hard to imagine that they would have many wealthy/famous clients who value privacy greatly. You can imagine what negative impact "a prank call to the hospital and nurses tell you everything" would cause. Yes it is an honest mistake, but unless you think only those who deliberately sabotage their employer deserve to be fired, I don't see the relevance. Did the crew of SQ006 want to get on the wrong runway and kill 83 people? Are they still employed by SQ? I understand the hospital had no intention of firing her, but you have to say this was a real possibility rather than some kind of unimaginable cruelty.

[Edited 2012-12-08 16:25:39]

[Edited 2012-12-08 16:26:45]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-12-08 16:24:15 and read 4027 times.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 93):
I have not followed this too closely but from what I've seen I doubt the DJs expected their prank to work, so there was probably not much preparation put into it.

They did not expect their prank to work. However, once it worked they cleared it with their lawyer before broadcasting it. It was not real-time. They had time to do the decent thing but unfortunately doing the decent thing was probably way down the priority list.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-08 18:08:39 and read 3997 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 94):
I agree that suicide was an unlikely outcome.

Maybe worth mentioning that we don't know for certain that it was suicide yet? I believe the inquest starts tomorrow, so we'll no doubt know soon - but at the moment, it remains possible (although unlikely) that the lady died from 'natural causes.'

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2012-12-09 02:18:29 and read 3915 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 90):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 89):To my mind this boils down to yet another mess up by the Royal Protection Squad, so far this year:

It has very little to do with the Royal Protection Squad. The RPS is there to protect their lives - not to tell them how to live their lives.

If Prince Harry wants to get naked in a Las Vegas hotel room, more power to him and that's his business. The RPS is not his behavioural watchdog.

mariner

What are they there for, they failed to search people granted access to Harry's hotel room, they could have just as easily been carrying somehting lethal, they failed to notice that a pool terrace was overlooked from a public road, the long lesn could just have easily been a telescopic sight, and are you saying that a major movie star or music artiste in the same circumstances wouldn't have had security to verify the identity of visitors and callers ?

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-12-09 02:44:58 and read 3904 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 97):
and are you saying that a major movie star or music artiste in the same circumstances wouldn't have had security to verify the identity of visitors and callers ?


Once again, NO in caps. This is a public hospital, no security would be allowed to invade all the other patients privacy by listening to incoming calls. If they want that treatment go private. This is a public NHS hospital.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2012-12-09 04:04:13 and read 3884 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 98):
This is a public NHS hospital

Which hospital - the one used by Kate where this nurse worked?? If you mean the Edward VII hospital in Beaumont St London then no, it is not a public NHS hospital.

I believe there is an NHS hospital elsewhere in the country with the same name.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: stealthz
Posted 2012-12-09 04:36:05 and read 3869 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 98):
This is a public hospital, no security would be allowed to invade all the other patients privacy by listening to incoming calls. If they want that treatment go private. This is a public NHS hospital.

Well no it isn't, by their own information they are one of London's leading private Hospitals.

I am thinking it is time to call an end to this BS.
A couple of relatively inexperienced radio hosts made a prank call, the stock in trade of radio (and some TV) worldwide(including the UK for many years(decades perhaps).
Personally I consider such prank calls awkward and cringeworthy and generally change stations or turn the volume down but they are a fairly common thing worldwide.
These 2 announcers more than likely expected to get to some "gatekeeper" and after an increasingly awkward conversation be hung up on, they were likely as surprised as the hospital staff when they were put thru to the nurse treating the duchess.
I am having trouble believing that the Hospital, well experienced in treating VIPs and members of the royal family would not have, considering the undoubted interest in the case,ensured there was a senior and very well briefed "receptionist" on duty to field such calls. Is perhaps some of the fuss, stern letters from the Hospital to the chariman of Austereo and calls from the London Police to NSW Police some sort of diversionary tactic to divert attention from their own very obvious failings in this case.

I am also wondering if the furore is being beaten up by the British press to take some of the heat off them over some recent missteps(certainly taken the Leveson inquiry off the front pages for a day or two), might also be a good chance for our antipodean cousins to indulge in some Aussie bashing, something they are rarely hesitant about embracing.

I have noticed the fact that the nationality of the poor nurse has also enabled some in her home country to bring out the weary old claim that Australia is a hotbed of Indian hating racists.

As I said the "humour" involved is not to my taste but if we are going to blame it for this poor ladies state of mind and sad ending.. leading to yet more controls and limits on expression then I think the world is a sadder place.

[Edited 2012-12-09 04:55:56]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2012-12-09 06:11:48 and read 3835 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 98):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 97):
and are you saying that a major movie star or music artiste in the same circumstances wouldn't have had security to verify the identity of visitors and callers ?



Once again, NO in caps. This is a public hospital, no security would be allowed to invade all the other patients privacy by listening to incoming calls. If they want that treatment go private. This is a public NHS hospital.

I wasn't suggesting listening to private calls, merely that there should be a system to verify that the caller is genuine.
I recall when my mother in law was very poorly in our local NHS hospital one of her cousins rang up to ask how she was, the nurse who took the call called me over to speak to them to pass on the bad news. The nurse didn't divulge any information as patient confidentiality in the NHS prevents them doing so. The situation should have been no different here, doesn't matter if its the Queen, Prime Minister, or the Director General of the BBC.

As recently said by others this is a private hospital which carries out no NHS work at all. Its regularly used by the "rich and famous" and has been the preferred hospital of the Royal Family for generations.

The potential downside for the hospital is enormous, many of its patients go to great lengths to guard their private lives, in some cases their future earnings depend on giving out a fit and healthy image, after all who wants to commence shooting a movie blockbuster with a star who might have health problems ?

To my mind the indignation is a desperate attempt to try and salvage something from the situation.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-09 10:07:26 and read 3794 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 97):
What are they there for, they failed to search people granted access to Harry's hotel room, they could have just as easily been carrying somehting lethal, they failed to notice that a pool terrace was overlooked from a public road, the long lesn could just have easily been a telescopic sight, and are you saying that a major movie star or music artiste in the same circumstances wouldn't have had security to verify the identity of visitors and callers ?

Given the "state of dress" of most of the guests in the Las Vegas hotel room, I think a gun would have been found and a camera is not considered (yet) a lethal weapon.

A major movie star mighty well have minders to strip people of cameras to protect their "image", and if it is felt that Prince Harry should have those, then the Palace would provide them, at its own cost.

But the publicly funded RPS are there literally to protect their lives not their public image, and not to stop people taking photos of them, whatever the consequences of those photos may be.

They cannot, and should not, take moral positions and they cannot get in the way of people - even the paparazzi - just doing their jobs, earning a living. That's up to the courts.

Some folk may have tut-tutted the photos of a naked Harry, and he may have been carpeted by his senior officers, but it isn't the job of the RPS to shield him from the consequences of his own actions.

At the same a fair number of people, and many of his mates in the military, cheered him on as a "lad" like them, and posed for and published naked photos of themselves in support of him.

mariner

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-12-09 14:19:51 and read 3744 times.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 100):
they were likely as surprised as the hospital staff when they were put thru to the nurse treating the duchess.

They crossed the line not when they made the phone call (although the call itself was obviously in poor taste as Mariners pointed out), but when they decided to broadcast the call. This was not a real-time, "oops everything happened too fast and went out of our control" situation, the call was recorded. Yes the hospital should have a more mature system in place, but what motivated them to broadcast the call and what they sadly ignored when making the decision is what directly triggered this tragedy.
Anyway, the tragedy has already happened and it is no longer useful to proportion blame or punish anyone. One would hope that the DJs involved, as well as the whole industry, learned from this terrible event. Keep pushing the boundary of decency in pursuit for sensation and rating should not be accepted, whether malice is present or not.

[Edited 2012-12-09 14:20:35]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-09 15:53:20 and read 3717 times.

Further to Post 96, it appears that no post-mortem examination has yet been carried out, to establish the cause of death. So all the inquest will be able to do is open, and then adjourn until such time as the PM results are known.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-09 16:33:25 and read 3702 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 96):
Maybe worth mentioning that we don't know for certain that it was suicide yet?

I don't think the manner of her death - suicide or natural causes - makes a lot of difference to the central issue.

If it was suicide, it was an extreme reaction, but none of us know her mental state. And if it was natural causes - a heart condition, say - then the stress of this probably didn't help her well-being in the last couple of days of her life.

She was not the intended target of the prank, I doubt the DJ's even knew her name - she was caught in the cross-fire of it, collateral damage, if you will. Same with the duty nurse who gave out the medical information.

But that's the point - at least to me. Ordinary people going about their daily business got caught in the web of this so-called prank - having done nothing wrong, nothing to deserve it - and I have a real problem with that.

Of course, the two DJ's didn't think she would die, but that's a problem, too - they didn't think. If the argument is "this hasn't happened before" - well, it's happened now and there was always the possibility that something like it might happen, one day.

mariner

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-09 17:20:10 and read 3679 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 105):
And if it was natural causes - a heart condition, say - then the stress of this probably didn't help her well-being in the last couple of days of her life.

Of course I agree in general terms, mariner. But, according to the hospital administrators, neither she nor her colleague (the one who gave out the information) were 'disciplined' in any way. So on the face of it, she shouldn't have been under any stress at all?

Right on cue, here's the first hint that she (and her colleague) may in fact have been under some:-

"Jacintha Saldanha was “highly traumatised” by the media coverage of the hoax call controversy, and had been “due to speak to her managers” at King Edward VII hospital before she died in apparent suicide, according to media reports quoting hospital sources.

"The hospital insisted that Ms. Saldanha was “not disciplined’’ or subjected to any “significant interview” over her handling of the call that led to medical details of Kate William, the Duchess of Cambridge, being revealed to two Australian DJs who telephoned posing as the Queen and Prince Charles.

"However, her bosses intended to have “a chat [with her] at some point,” The Sunday Times said.

"After the incident which made international headlines amid reports that the royal couple were extremely upset, Ms. Saldanha was reportedly asked how she came to transfer the call to the ward nurse. Apparently, the drill is that when the reception is closed for the night the duty nurse is only supposed to take down phone messages — and not transfer any calls.

“She was telephoned about it and asked what had happened and she explained. She was traumatised by it and by the media coverage afterwards. The hospital was working hard to support her. But I don’t think anyone realised how traumatised she was. There was a plan to have a chat [with her] at some point,” one hospital source told the paper."


And this bit of the story is also 'new information':-

“Her colleague, who has not been named, is also said to have been incredibly upset,” the report said.'

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nationa...a-chat-with-her/article4181827.ece

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-09 17:48:49 and read 3665 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 106):
So on the face of it, she shouldn't have been under any stress at all?

You're a lucky man if you've never felt guilt or foolishness - or stress - about something you have done, even though your bosses aren't blasting you.

She was the gateway, she put through the call, she is the one who, in the first instance, was made a fool of, she is the one who might well think "she let the patient down."

I find it bizarre that people can't get to the basic fact - a patient was sick, pregnant, in the first, dangerous trimester, and the status of the feotus was precarious. Let's ignore the fact the child would be an heir to the throne.

The reaction of any nurse, any mother, most any woman, is deep concern for the mother and the child and any distraction from that is a stress and not a small one.

mariner

[Edited 2012-12-09 17:53:20]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-09 18:08:55 and read 3652 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 107):
She was the gateway, she put through the call, she is the one who, in the first instance, was made a fool of, she is the one who might well think "she let the patient down."

Agree again, mariner.

But all management did, on the available evidence, was tell her that, 'according to the rules,' she shouldn't have put the call through; and then not grant her any further 'significant interviews' for the next couple of days.........

What they should have done is talk honestly to her straight away, and say that it was entirely their fault that she'd been left in a situation where she either had to put the call through, or tell the Queen and Prince Charles (as far as she understood the situation) to 'get stuffed'......... And that therefore no blame attached to her (or her colleague). Instead, on the basis of the press report, they told her that she had made a mistake - and then just left her to stew for three days.......

Hopefully the inquest will eventually apply percentages in apportioning the blame for this tragic mess. And, for myself, I hope that the biggest percentage of said blame is apportioned to the hospital administrators, for not having a trained operator on their switchboard at all times...........

In my opinion, on present evidence, that's where it belongs.

[Edited 2012-12-09 18:09:34]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-09 18:21:08 and read 3644 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 108):
But all management did, on the available evidence, was tell her that, 'according to the rules,' she shouldn't have put the call through; and then not grant her any further 'significant interviews' for the next couple of days.........

That isn't what I have read:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ticle.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10852724

"Hospital spokesman Sion Taylor said: 'She was not being disciplined. She was being supported, absolutely not being disciplined. Nothing like that.' John Lofthouse, chief executive of the private hospital said: 'Jacintha has worked at the King Edward VII Hospital for more than four years. She was an excellent nurse and well respected and popular with all of her colleagues.

'We can confirm that Jacintha was recently the victim of a hoax call to the hospital. The hospital had been supporting her throughout this difficult time.'"


Did the hospital want to know how it happened? You betcha. But that inquiry is not evidence of any lack of sympathy or support.

mariner

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-09 18:30:40 and read 3642 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 109):
But that inquiry is not evidence of any lack of sympathy or support.

I think the key part of that article is this one, mariner:-

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 106):
There was a plan to have a chat [with her] at some point,” one hospital source told the paper."

I expect that the management was fully involved in PR 'damage control' - and that no-one found time to have a chat with her and tell her straight out that none of the mess was her fault......

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-09 18:36:04 and read 3642 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 110):
I expect that the management was fully involved in PR 'damage control' - and that no-one found time to have a chat with her and tell her straight out that none of the mess was her fault......

Your mind appears to be made up, but when I read they she was "being supported" I assume she was being supported.

mariner

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-09 18:45:36 and read 3636 times.

Couple of conflicting key phrases in the limited 'available information, mariner. Your one is 'being supported'; mine is 'There was a plan to have a chat [with her] at some point'.

An honest disagreement. Hopefully the inquest will eventually tell us which version is correct.  

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-09 18:57:08 and read 3636 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 112):
An honest disagreement. Hopefully the inquest will eventually tell us which version is correct.  

Why is there a conflict? It seems hospital protocol was not followed - however understandably - and there has to be an inquiry into that, if only to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

Having established, initially, what happened, it seems quite sympathetic for the hospital to give her some breathing space before they go into detail of it and, if necessary, reinforce hospital policy.

I was once peripherally involved in a workplace accident. I was deeply upset but, of course, I had to go through the process of inquiry and be reminded of safety procedures, if only to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

Everyone was quite kind about it - if probing and firm - but my own guilt as to what extent I was responsible was the most difficult thing to deal with.

It goes with the territory.

mariner

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2012-12-10 01:07:23 and read 3594 times.

Just to add. Both presenters have been in an interview, which I saw only brief moments from.

The presenters were really struggling to get through the interview and it is clear that this event is eating them up inside. Mel Grieg seemed to be having an especially hard time with it, possibly as she was the one that was impersonating the queen and got the information from the nurses.

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: melpax
Posted 2012-12-10 02:07:44 and read 3566 times.

This was bound to happen at some stage, Austereo have issued a company-wide ban on prank calls, and have cancelled the show concerned.

http://www.theage.com.au/entertainme...ds-prank-calls-20121210-2b5h9.html

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: stealthz
Posted 2012-12-10 02:42:54 and read 3549 times.

And still no fingers pointing at the hospital for a major FAIL.

Seems most effort on the part of the hospital is to deflect blame and manage the PR.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2012-12-10 06:01:18 and read 3488 times.

An interview with the two DJs:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...devastated-but-dont-say-sorry.html

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-12-10 11:19:27 and read 3436 times.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 94):
They wanted their audience to laugh at the nurses involved

But they didn't name them. Had the nurse never taken her own life, we would never know her name. We would never have seen her face. You can't laugh at someone you don't know. You can laugh at the abstract of that person (i.e. "that nurse who put the call though"), but that nurse could be one of any other number of nurses at the hospital as far as the general public is concerned.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-10 16:09:21 and read 3378 times.

Occurs to me that there's one factor that probably contributed to the tragedy which hasn't been mentioned yet; the time difference. At this time of the year Eastern Australia is eleven hours ahead of the UK.

That would explain why the fatal call (presumably from an afternoon chat programme in Sydney) apparently reached the hospital in London at about 5.00AM.

In addition, the radio station is claiming that (as required by normal procedures) they rang the hospital several times to warn it that the recorded piece was going to air - but the hospital denies receiving any calls about it. The time difference was very probably the problem there as well.

[Edited 2012-12-10 16:15:22]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2012-12-10 16:29:42 and read 3370 times.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 116):
And still no fingers pointing at the hospital for a major FAIL.

Seems most effort on the part of the hospital is to deflect blame and manage the PR.

How on earth is it in ANY way, the Hospitals fault ?

They are the ones at the butt end of this pathetic incident

Quoting stealthz (Reply 116):
Seems most effort on the part of the hospital is to deflect blame and manage the PR.

What ?
I'd say the opposite. Did you see the interview with the 2 DJ's.....
That's PR management/damage control, if ever I saw.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 119):
In addition, the radio station is claiming that (as required by normal procedures) they rang the hospital several times to warn it that the recorded piece was going to air - but the hospital denies receiving any calls about it. The time difference was very probably the problem there as well.

NAV20, From what I can understand, the law, regarding the recording of calls (by anyone) has to be acknowledged (by both parties) at the time the call is taking place, not after the event.

Or am I talking about something else ?

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-10 16:52:22 and read 3355 times.

Misunderstanding, I think, TheCommodore.

Apparently there's a convention (I don't think it's a law) that the 'victims' of a hoax call are given a bit of 'early warning' that 'they've been had,' before it is broadcast. The radio station says they rang five times but couldn't get anyone. The hospital says that they didn't.

"Hospital says it had no contact from radio station before hoax was broadcastKing Edward VII hospital contradicts claim that Australian 2Day FM tried to get in touch with managers

----------------------

"The London hospital where Jacintha Saldanha worked as a nurse before apparently taking her own life has contradicted claims by an Australian radio station that it tried to contact hospital managers before broadcasting a prank call.

"Rhys Holleran, chief executive of Southern Cross Austereo – which owns 2Day FM, the station that broadcast last week's hoax in which Mel Greig and Michael Christian impersonated the Queen to acquire details of the Duchess of Cambridge's acute morning sickness – said the station attempted to contact King Edward VII hospital "no less than five times" before broadcasting.

"It is absolutely true to say that we actually did attempt to contact those people on multiple occasions," Holleran told Fairfax Media. "We rang them to discuss what we had recorded," he said, adding that this was done before the recorded prank went to air. "Absolutely. We attempted to contact them on no less than five occasions. We wanted to speak to them about it."

"But a spokeswoman for the hospital said on Monday: "Following the hoax call, the radio station did not speak to anyone in the hospital's senior management or anyone at the company that handles our media inquiries."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012...pital-radio-station-hoax-broadcast

[Edited 2012-12-10 17:00:11]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: kiwiinoz
Posted 2012-12-10 16:54:35 and read 3355 times.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 120):
How on earth is it in ANY way, the Hospitals fault ?

The hospital certainly would need to review it's processes for screening of calls. They have a responsibility to safeguard the confidentiality of their patients.

But I do find it a bit rich that the radio station is saying, "take a look at the hospital", being the initiator of the whole thing. They most certainly are not in a position to say that. And I absolotely disbelieve that they made any attempt to contact the hospital

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-10 17:43:16 and read 3337 times.

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 122):
The hospital certainly would need to review it's processes for screening of calls.

I think we can all agree on that, kiwiinoz.

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 122):
And I absolotely disbelieve that they made any attempt to contact the hospital

I don't think the Chief Executive of the parent group would tell outright lies - he'd know better than anyone that this business is going to be dragging through the courts for years on end. But it's obvious that he didn't make the calls himself, so all the details will need checking.

But, on a second reading of what the hospital people said, they're not actually denying that there were any calls. They just say:-

"Following the hoax call, the radio station did not speak to anyone in the hospital's senior management or anyone at the company that handles our media inquiries."

All the times (at both ends) will have to be checked minutely. And, in due course, they will be. But the awful suspicion is growing on me that when the radio people made the claimed five calls, they only (yet again) got that poor nurse. And there was no-one in the place - certainly no-one in 'senior management' or 'media enquiries' - that she could put them through to........

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: prebennorholm
Posted 2012-12-10 18:51:00 and read 3315 times.

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 122):
The hospital certainly would need to review it's processes for screening of calls. They have a responsibility to safeguard the confidentiality of their patients.

Naeh, I'm not so sure about that. It's the responsibility of the hospitals to treat their patients the best they can. And it's the responsibility of the rest of us not to disturb them unnecessarily while doing their duty.

It is really sad if hospitals have to be made into fortresses, even at the nighttime switchboard, because of a few idiots out there.

It's all about money and bad taste entertainment. If a company announces that they have quit advertisements on Sydney's 2Day - and other media acting like them, then that company will automatically move several steps up on my list of preferred suppliers.

If a billion people did the same thing.... that would be the only way to get rid of that sort of bad taste entertainment of silly people who haven't got a life.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-10 19:30:52 and read 3305 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 118):
You can laugh at the abstract of that person (i.e. "that nurse who put the call though"), but that nurse could be one of any other number of nurses at the hospital as far as the general public is concerned.

It's the effect on her, the nurse, that matters, surely?

As above, she was the gateway, the one who accepted the voice as that of the Queen and put the call through to the duty nurse.

I seriously doubt that, in itself, was enough to cause her to end her life - if she did that - but for anyone in a responsible position she might, at the very least, have felt like a considerable fool.

And I don't know where the sport is in putting people in that position.

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 122):
The hospital certainly would need to review it's processes for screening of calls.

They had such a procedure. Calls received "after hours" were not supposed to be put through to nursing staff. The caller would be asked to leave a number and the hospital would call them back.

However, foolishly or otherwise, this nurse believed she was talking to the Queen, who ain't your regular run of the mill caller. So sadly, perhaps even tragically, she put the call through.

mariner

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-10 20:35:41 and read 3285 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 125):
However, foolishly or otherwise, this nurse believed she was talking to the Queen, who ain't your regular run of the mill caller. So sadly, perhaps even tragically, she put the call through.

And the ward nurse must have felt much the same about things........

I did a bit of checking on Australian law. As far as I can tell, you cannot legally broadcast a 'hoax call' unless you have notified the other party that they have received one; if you do, you're breaking the law (Australian law, at least). The radio station followed the rules as far as recording the interview and having it checked by their legal (or 'para-legal') people before putting it on the air is concerned.

But from that point on, we simply don't have enough information so far. All we have are the (on the face of it, conflicting and incomplete) accounts of the two parties:-

"It said Greig and Christian followed proper procedures and the station tried to contact the nurses at least five times before the segment went to air.

"The statement did not say whether the broadcaster received any response.

"But a King Edward VII's Hospital spokeswoman has told the ABC that the radio station did not speak to anyone in hospital senior management or anyone at the company that handles their media inquiries.

"However, she had no answer as to whether there were missed calls or messages from the network."


My guess is that the radio station just told whoever was doing the 'overnight stand-in job' on the switchboard that they'd been hoaxed; because there was no-one else there. Sadly, that could very well still have been poor Ms Saldanha herself. If so, no wonder neither side appears to be 'telling the whole truth.'

The story I'm quoting from also includes some comments from the family's MP:-

"Ms Saldanha's devastated family made an emotional public appearance overnight.

"Her tearful husband Benedict Barboza appeared with his 14-year-old daughter Lisha outside Britain's Houses of Parliament and spoke through British Labour MP Keith Vaz, whose family is also from India.

"They just want me to say that they are extremely grateful to the public here in the United Kingdom and throughout the world who have sent them messages of condolences and support following the death of Jacintha, a loving mother and a loving wife.

"This is a close family. They are devastated by what has happened. They miss her every moment of every day.

"They will be making their own statements later on today or tomorrow to keep people informed of developments."

"The hospital itself has also been criticised for its reaction.

"The hospital has sent them a letter which I have seen, but I'm a little surprised that nobody has made the journey to Bristol to sit with them and to offer them the counselling that I think that they need," Mr Vaz said.

"I'm interested to see what the DJs in Australia have said about the psychological support that they've received, but I hope that this family are getting that support as well.

"I think that they need even more support than has been given to the DJs in Australia."


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-1...eared-prank-call-broadcast/4420120

I think the MP's dead right - someone should have visited and counselled the family face to face. And it's an open question whether anyone at the hospital bothered to counsel Ms Saldahna, either?

Whatever - this story looks as if it's going to 'run and run' for a long time yet, before we hear anything like 'the whole truth'.........

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-10 20:54:50 and read 3297 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 126):
Whatever - this story looks as if it's going to 'run and run' for a long time yet, before we hear anything like 'the whole truth'.........

I seriously doubt we will ever know "the whole truth." I don't see how we can, because it involves a dead woman's state of mind.

It will be interpreted, as usual, according to peoples agenda. Some who watched the i/v with the DJ's last were on their side, some thought it was a load of well-rehearsed, self-serving hooey.

But the story seems to be dying quite quickly, at least in the Australian press (a six day wonder on the seventh day?) and the TV interviews with the DJ's last night didn't exactly set the ratings world on fire - good but not spectacular.

The Aussies now seem more interested in the fortunes of Austero, owners of the radio station, who are said to be losing $1 million a week and which has now cancelled its staff Christmas party:

http://www.theage.com.au/entertainme...spect-to-nurse-20121211-2b6z9.html

"The annual Christmas party for Southern Cross Austereo's Sydney staff has been cancelled as the company feels the backlash against 2Day FM's royal prank phone call.

The party, which had been planned before Saturday's heartbreaking news of the death of the British nurse, was cancelled as the station sought to distance itself from responsibility for the prank call to King Edward VII's Hospital on Tuesday, December 4.

After a tough year in which the broadcaster plunged from scandal to scandal, putting out fires largely centred on presenter Kyle Sandilands's on-air gaffes, staff were said to be looking forward to seeing the year out on a high with the Christmas party a chance to finally let down their hair.

"It was like we had just seen the light," said one radio worker in sales. "Morale had just started to build after the last Christmas, which was bad enough. And now this Christmas is, well, just an awful disaster. Staff are really dejected."


Not to sound flippant, but when Aussies cancel a Christmas piss-up, you know things are grim. What goes around comes around?

mariner

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-12-10 21:55:01 and read 3284 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 125):
It's the effect on her, the nurse, that matters, surely?

In the end, but that it would have such an effect is impossible to predict.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-10 22:11:16 and read 3280 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 128):
In the end, but that it would have such an effect is impossible to predict.


Impossible to predict the suicide? Sure, as I said.

But I don't think it is at all hard to imagine that a conscientious employee, in these circumstances, might feel like a considerable fool, if only because she was conned into breaking hospital procedure - and with a very high profile, very sick patient.

But we're just going over old ground.

mariner

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-10 22:24:22 and read 3273 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 127):
Not to sound flippant, but when Aussies cancel a Christmas piss-up, you know things are grim. What goes around comes around?

Maybe it just got several degrees grimmer, mariner mate; and they should have the piss-up anyway, because it might be the very last one the station can afford...........

"The Sydney-based radio station 2Day FM insisted yesterday it had tried to contact the hospital five times before including the hoax call in the Hot 30 show which began three hours later. It was unclear if the station's follow-up calls were answered.

"The hospital said yesterday that it had not identified any member of staff who had taken any follow-up calls from the station.

"It is investigating whether Ms Saldanha had been repeatedly pressurised by the senior staff from 2Day FM after the original call and before senior hospital managers were available."


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...amily/story-fnb64oi6-1226534328645

If anything like that can be proved (and it seems only too likely, given that the radio guys will have been thinking at the time that they had a 'headlining' scoop on their hands), in my view it will pretty well be the 'smoking gun.'

[Edited 2012-12-10 22:27:38]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-12-11 01:06:16 and read 3239 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 130):
If anything like that can be proved (and it seems only too likely, given that the radio guys will have been thinking at the time that they had a 'headlining' scoop on their hands), in my view it will pretty well be the 'smoking gun.'

IF the radio station did that - IF - it might make sense of one strange thing.

I've never understood the station's assertion that they tried to get clearance but couldn't. But then - if it was considered important enough to get clearance, why did they go ahead and broadcast without it?

mariner

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-11 02:06:49 and read 3222 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 131):
I've never understood the station's assertion that they tried to get clearance but couldn't.

Thing is, mariner, they said that they rang five times to get clearance. But they never actually said that they 'couldn't' - they just sort of 'left the last page blank.'

My guess is that they did eventually get some sort of 'yes' out of Ms Saldanha. But that, on the advice of the PR guys AND the lawyers, given that the lady died, they dare not admit it.

Sooner or later I expect that they'll find themselves in the witness box, under oath, and then they'll have to.

The hospital doesn't appear to have behaved much better. They appear to have organised things so that Ms Saldanha was left out on a limb for hours, under incredible pressure, with no-one to turn to for help. So - on the advice of their PR guys/lawyers - they won't be keen on 'telling the whole truth' either, if they can avoid it.

Really is turning out like a (somewhat improbable) film script, seems to me. In fact, that's probably the only certain outcome - sooner or later someone will make a film about it........

[Edited 2012-12-11 02:31:43]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: bueb0g
Posted 2012-12-11 02:09:04 and read 3222 times.

Quoting alberchico (Reply 2):
Was she in danger of losing her job because she fell for the prank ?

Nope.

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
By not trying to do anything entertaining for fear that someone might take things too seriously and kill themselves?

You have to obtain permission from those involved before broadcasting prank calls under Australian law. That way you can make sure the victims wouldn't be embarrassed and sent into depression and avoid this very issue. They didn't do that - they apparently "tried 5 times" to contact the Nurses, didn't bother trying to contact management, and then went ahed and broadcast the call.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 48):
I know in the USA hospitals and their staffs cannot disclose any thing about a patient to the media

But they didn't think they were talking to the media, they thought they were talking to the Queen....

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 56):
we don't know her immigration status

UK Citizen

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2012-12-11 04:14:32 and read 3189 times.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 124):
Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 122):The hospital certainly would need to review it's processes for screening of calls. They have a responsibility to safeguard the confidentiality of their patients.
Naeh, I'm not so sure about that. It's the responsibility of the hospitals to treat their patients the best they can. And it's the responsibility of the rest of us not to disturb them unnecessarily while doing their duty.
Quoting bueb0g (Reply 133):

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 48):I know in the USA hospitals and their staffs cannot disclose any thing about a patient to the media
But they didn't think they were talking to the media, they thought they were talking to the Queen....

Here in the UK its a big no to divulge anyones personal information without their approval. Every time you contact big organisations by phone you get "taken through security" to verify you are who you say you are. Doesn't matter who you are, even the Queen.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 126):
The story I'm quoting from also includes some comments from the family's MP:-

Keith Vaz is not the families MP, he is the MP for Leicester East well over 100 miles from the family home in Bristol. He is well known for jumping on to every passing bandwaggon, and a man with a very shady past, having been suspended from parliament for being economical with the truth.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-11 05:07:42 and read 3169 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 134):
Every time you contact big organisations by phone you get "taken through security" to verify you are who you say you are. Doesn't matter who you are, even the Queen.

Unless the 'big organisation' in question assigns un-trained nurses to run their switchboard all night, Bongodog1964? Presumably in order to save money?

Agree with you mostly, though. Personally I can't credit that, given the high proportion of VIPs that that hospital treats - up to and including actual and upcoming 'royals' - the lobby and corridors weren't crawling with security guards. And the idea of a single unassuming nurse being in sole charge of 'communications' beggars belief........

[Edited 2012-12-11 05:26:32]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2012-12-11 06:58:46 and read 3150 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 134):

Keith Vaz is not the families MP, he is the MP for Leicester East well over 100 miles from the family home in Bristol. He is well known for jumping on to every passing bandwaggon, and a man with a very shady past, having been suspended from parliament for being economical with the truth.

Correct. He's one of the most sanctimonious, hypocritical MPs we have - and he has stiff competition for that accolade.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: SHAQ
Posted 2012-12-11 09:42:51 and read 3127 times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MjPPMLlZqo
Here they have the original audio.
I can't believe someone took his own life because of that simple prank.
If the prank was so bad, why the other nurse didnt killed herself?
Ms. Saldanha had other problems in mind, that made her take this decision.
anyway, may she rest in peace.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-11 15:53:04 and read 3089 times.

Some 'new news' - Ms Saldanha left what is described as a 'suicide note' for her family. No information yet on what it contains, but, interestingly, the family says that they want answers not from the radio guys, but from the hospital:-

"Jacintha Saldanha, 46, left a note for her husband Ben Barboza, 49, and children Junal, 17, and Lisha, 14, but they still believe there are "unexplained circumstances" and are demanding answers from the King Edward VII Hospital."

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/nurse...-20121212-2b8jj.html#ixzz2En47pfaw

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-12-11 15:58:05 and read 3088 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 138):
"Jacintha Saldanha, 46, left a note for her husband Ben Barboza, 49, and children Junal, 17, and Lisha, 14, but they still believe there are "unexplained circumstances" and are demanding answers from the King Edward VII Hospital."

I lost interest in this thread early on, so I didn't feel like typing out a response earlier but this new tidbit kinda reinforces what I was thinking... how do we know this prank call caused the suicide? Even if it went into it, did it push her over the edge? Would she have still committed suicide without the prank?

Maybe the hospital caused it. Maybe a friend said or did something mean. Maybe a family member died. How do we know X caused Y? (prank caused suicide?)

Haven't listened to the prank, maybe it was distasteful, but even so, is that illegal?

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Aesma
Posted 2012-12-11 16:17:36 and read 3074 times.

Isn't this story getting way more attention than it should ? I mean, a murder would get less !

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-11 16:45:05 and read 3068 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 139):
Haven't listened to the prank, maybe it was distasteful

Give it a listen, DeltaMD90. It's very short, and not at all distasteful.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 139):
Maybe the hospital caused it.

Both sides are being pretty evasive - strongly suggests that both the radio people and the hospital messed things up.

The radio people called five times trying to 'notify' the hospital that it had been hoaxed (a step which is 'required' by Australian law before the story can be aired). We have no details on that - but the hospital has hinted that ALL those calls may have been answered by poor Nurse Saldahna. If so, that will have put her under dreadful stress.

The hospital people haven't said much either - but they've pretty well 'confirmed,' by what they haven't said, that Nurse Saldanha had no senior people to whom she could refer the calls; all the signs are that she just had to cope on her own. And it's possible (maybe even probable) that they didn't give her any proper counselling - there's a quote from an (anonymous) hospital bloke, earlier on in the thread, that says something like "We were planning to have a chat with her over the next few days...".

So my guess is that the blame will eventually be 'shared' on a percentage basis. Earlier on, because the 'system' meant that the nurse was left on her own to deal with the whole thing, my personal assessment of the score was about 'hospital 60%, radio station 40%.' But later, learning about those five calls (which no doubt heaped a great deal of pressure on Ms Saldanha, if she was still on duty) I more or less switched to 60/40 the other way.

[Edited 2012-12-11 16:46:49]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-12-11 17:12:03 and read 3052 times.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 140):
Isn't this story getting way more attention than it should ?

That's the British monarchy for you.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: fridgmus
Posted 2012-12-11 22:53:48 and read 3013 times.

What ever happened to common human decency? IMHO, those two Australian DJ's are no better than some cheap PoS tabloid reporter.

My heart goes out to her family. May she Rest in Peace.

F

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-12-11 23:46:14 and read 3005 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 142):
Quoting Aesma (Reply 140):Isn't this story getting way more attention than it should ?That's the British monarchy for you.

The Royal angle may add some interest, just the same as if in other countries the daughter of a President had similarly been targeted, but this event occurred against the background of an inquiry into the British media which has included evidence of illegal phone-hacking, deleting records and all sorts of questionable behaviour.

To the British media this sad event is a useful distraction. What better way to divert attention from one's own lack of ethical standards than to criticise others? Pots calling kettles black still sells papers and, more importantly, advertising space.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: melpax
Posted 2012-12-12 02:37:58 and read 2980 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 139):
Haven't listened to the prank, maybe it was distasteful, but even so, is that illegal?

The call was actually one of the milder ones that the station in question have put to air. As the DJ's themselves have said, they were pretty much expecting to get hung up on straight away, not get put through to the ward.

If you do a Google search for Kyle Sandilands, you'll know why there's a lot of anger directed towards the station here, and not the DJ's themselves...

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: offloaded
Posted 2012-12-12 03:57:36 and read 2959 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 139):
how do we know this prank call caused the suicide? Even if it went into it, did it push her over the edge? Would she have still committed suicide without the prank?

These are interesting questions. I have sympathy for the girl's family but I am not convinced that this prank was the sole cause at all.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 134):
He is well known for jumping on to every passing bandwaggon

Seems to be a big bandwagon going around the UK at the moment. Even Jimmy Saville's victims are up to 500. Money has nothing to do with it of course.  

These DJs/radio station may not be particularly popular right now, but calls to ban this kind of prank are really unnecessary. There was a guy called Darren "Whackhead" Simpson on a South African radio station, and some of his phone pranks were absolutely hilarious. He's got several CDs out of them. If you ban radio pranks, what's next: Candid Camera, April Fools Day?

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-12 04:15:50 and read 2959 times.

Just a couple of bits of 'further information.' Offered 'without prejudice,' as they say.

Firstly, I've more or less been assuming that (given her profession) she'd probably used some sort of drug to commit suicide. Turns out that, poor thing, she hanged herself in her lodgings:-

'The nurse found dead after a hoax call to the hospital treating the pregnant Duchess of Cambridge was found hanged, the Guardian understands.

"Jacintha Saldanha, 46, a mother of two from Bristol, was discovered unconscious at her nurses' flat near the private King Edward VII hospital in central London on Friday morning."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/dec/12/nurse-prank-call-found-hanged

Secondly, according to one 'source,' she was apparently due to have a meeting with her hospital supervisors later on the day that she killed herself:-

"The hospital colleague also confirms Saldanha was scheduled to have a meeting with her hospital 'supervisors' later on the day she was found dead of an apparent suicide."

http://www.examiner.com/article/trau...and-daughter-angry-at-djs-hospital

[Edited 2012-12-12 04:29:06]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-12-12 08:40:03 and read 2892 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 147):
she'd probably used some sort of drug to commit suicide.

I suppose that it would be an easy conclusion to arrive at. I admit that I didn't immediately consider the means as I was more pre-occupied with the fact of it happening. But what are the laws regarding the storage and issue of drugs in the UK? If they are anything like the Poisons Act here in WA, there would need to be clear responsibilities and accountability for dispensing drugs that are other than those freely available over the counter.

Death by hanging would possibly be very frightening and painful. It is not like taking some drug that renders you comatose before death. The instinct, I imagine, would be to resist and struggle, unless some relaxant drugs or alcohol were administered before hand. No doubt this will be cleared up at the inquest when the autopsy results are available.

I am still not clear why she would be driven to suicide if an impending interview was due the same day, if the hospital's claims of ongoing support are true. Of course , we are not privy what was in her letter to her family. That may shed more light on the state of her mind and what the cause of her suicide was. Either way, it is still a very sad event.

A separate question, and in no way critical of anyone, least of all the deceased, a number of media reports have stressed the fact that the deceased was a "devout Roman Catholic." I suppose the inference is that she was so full of remorse at betraying a patient and letting her colleagues down that she saw no way of exculpation other than through death. But surely, if a person is devout, suicide is a sin. I don't understand this point so I would welcome input from those more familiar with both Catholic teachings on error and restitution (which I am sure does not include suicide) and the field of psychology and guilt.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: AR385
Posted 2012-12-12 09:51:06 and read 2880 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 141):
Earlier on, because the 'system' meant that the nurse was left on her own to deal with the whole thing

But the calll came in at an hour that really, even if someone is available, you will think very hard about ringing them. I see your point, but a nurse is not professionally trained on Public Relations. You and I (I don´t know your background) understand the subject in a profesional way and probably would not think twice about calling someone higher up. We know if we don´t, our asses may be on the line. But a nurse in the wee hrs.? Her idea of a mistake is probably not in that department.

I do believe the hospital needs to share the blame. If anything, by not reassuring Ms. Saldanha that she was not in trouble whatsoever. Maybe they did the opposite?

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 148):
Death by hanging would possibly be very frightening and painful. It is not like taking some drug that renders you comatose before death

I understand it´s not the preferred method for women when comitting suicide. Killing yourslef through hanging is also about sending a message. An angry, dark message.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-12 17:05:41 and read 2832 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 149):
But a nurse in the wee hrs.? Her idea of a mistake is probably not in that department.

Have cordially to disagree on that, AR385. All the signs are that Ms Sandanha was a mature and capable woman; and a hospital nurse probably has to make judgments about 'calling in senior people' more often than most of us!   I think that the reason that she didn't is much more likely to have been that there was simply no-one more senior in the building that she could call in.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 149):
I do believe the hospital needs to share the blame. If anything, by not reassuring Ms. Saldanha that she was not in trouble whatsoever. Maybe they did the opposite?

Agree entirely there. All the hospital PR people have said is that they were 'supporting' Ms Sandanha - no details at all. You're absolutely right that she should have been told straight out that no blame was attaching to her; and counselled, and even sent home for a break if that looked advisable. Instead, as far as we know so far, she seems just to have been left to work normally for three days; and then told to attend a meeting with her 'supervisors' the following morning.

If that IS what happened - or, rather, didn't happen - my 'blame scale percentage' for her death will go to about '70% hospital, 30% radio people.' But we need to know what the suicide note says before we can make a judgment on the point.

[Edited 2012-12-12 17:22:10]

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2012-12-12 19:59:47 and read 2806 times.

Here in the USA, we have right (and sometimes a few left) wing radio shows led by racist, sexist, ex-drunks and druggies and generally hateful of government and some who call in who are even more racist, sexist and anti-government, and wish violence to President Obama, yet they rarely get censured or face penalties.

Shock jock Howard Stern was pretty much pushed out of broadcast radio to subscription (Sirus) due to some of his bad language and sexual stunts. A pair of shock jocks got canned when they had a stunt of people have sex in public places. One couple tried to have sex in the entrance lobby of St. Patrick's Cathredial in New York - I heard it live on the radio that day as it was to happen - and a few hours later they were off the broadcast air and into subcription radio. The primary sponsor of the stunt (a well known independent beer maker) got thousands of complaints and a short term drop in sales for their sponsorship.

Several years ago in the USA, a nationally syndicated talk radio shrink gave some poor advice to a troubled woman and the caller commited surcide, and still was on the air (and on CNN Headline News Channel) for about 2 years more.

The only real check on extremes is cutting off their money and not listening to the fools.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: AR385
Posted 2012-12-12 21:23:46 and read 2796 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 150):
Have cordially to disagree on that, AR385. All the signs are that Ms Sandanha was a mature and capable woman; and a hospital nurse probably has to make judgments about 'calling in senior people' more often than most of us!

You have a valid point, NAV20. I think, thiugh, that what you say applies only to a medical setting. I can´t imagine Ms. Saldanha not calling the specialist on call at any hour if the patient she was in charge of developed trouble. In an administrative setting, such as receiving a call, I´m not so sure how someone not trained in how to field those types of communications would know how to react. Bear in mind I´m not saying in any way that she was not mature or capable. Just that in this day and age, you need training in that field.

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-12 21:43:28 and read 2793 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 152):
Just that in this day and age, you need training in that field.

Yes indeed - which is why the hospital should have had a proper receptionist/operator in the hot seat, even at night.

And, of course, a senior guy doing 'night duty' to run the place. As far as I know that hospital doesn't have a casualty station or anything; but the mere fact that it's often full of VIPs and 'royalty' means that someone should be 'in charge' at all times. Apart from anything else, on the face of it it looks as if a couple of terrorists (who aren't unknown, even in London) could walk in any time?

It'd be interesting to know whether the hospital has changed its overnight supervision arrangements since this incident?

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-13 16:01:12 and read 2728 times.

A couple more bits of news. There were apparently three 'notes' - one of which was addressed to the hospital:-

"One note deals with the hoax call by the DJs from 2Day FM, another details her requests for her funeral, and the third addresses her employers, the hospital, and contains criticism of staff there, the Guardian understands from two separate sources."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...13/jacintha-saldanha-suicide-notes

And it looks highly likely that the Aussie bureaucrats have found a way to make life very uncomfortable for the radio station - up to and possibly including shutting it down:-

"The Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA) will examine whether radio station 2Day FM and staff were in breach of broadcasting licence conditions.

"The station risks being shut down if found to have broken the rules.

"The watchdog will be referring heavily to the radio broadcasting code, particular a part which states that it is a breach to record a person in conversation, and also air it, without their knowledge.

"Section 6.1 of the code states that ‘a licensee must not broadcast the words of an identifiable person unless that person has been informed in advance or a reasonable person would be aware that the words may be broadcast.’

---------------------

"The section adds that there must not be a broadcast unless, ‘in the case of words which have been recorded without the knowledge of the person, that person has subsequently, but prior to the broadcast, expressed consent to the broadcast of the word.’

"The station’s parent company has said it attempted to contact the hospital five times following the hoax call to discuss it, but had not been able to speak to anyone."


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...k-radio-station.html#ixzz2EymLBjI3
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: NAV20
Posted 2012-12-23 01:04:10 and read 2442 times.

I guess this pretty well settles the issue. Poor Nurse Saldanha appears to have been pre-disposed to suicide:-

"THE nurse who committed suicide after answering a hoax phone call about the Duchess of Cambridge reportedly made two attempts to kill herself a year ago and had been prescribed antidepressants.

"Jacintha Saldanha, who took her own life days after the call from Australian DJs pretending to be the Queen and Prince Charles, attempted to commit suicide in December 2011 during a family visit to India, according to reports in Indian media.

"She survived after being rushed to hospital but tried to commit suicide again just nine days later.

"Ms Saldanha, 46, spent several days in intensive care before receiving psychiatric treatment and being prescribed a course of powerful antidepressants for nine months."


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/wor...empts/story-fnd134gw-1226542581126

Topic: RE: Royal Hospital Hoax Nurse Suicide
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2012-12-23 01:13:06 and read 2436 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 155):
I guess this pretty well settles the issue. Poor Nurse Saldanha appears to have been pre-disposed to suicide:-

Certainly goes a long way to explain everything, and doesn't come as a huge shock. But this is half of it - while you can't go through life assuming people will top themselves because of any small thing you might do, it is a good example of how we might think about the fact that one person's experience of an event might vary massively from our own.


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