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Topic: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-28 09:56:39 and read 2572 times.

With only 3 days left in 2012, Chicago has reached 500 homicides. Existing laws on the books in Chicago should make Chicago the safest big city in the United States due to the city having the toughest anti-gun law in the nation. Chicago public schools receives some of the most federal funding and taxes in Chicago and Cook county is high to help support vital services.
Can anyone explain why Chicago would still have such a high murder rate?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...o-homicide-rate-500_n_2375697.html

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: tugger
Posted 2012-12-28 10:06:26 and read 2565 times.

Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
With only 3 days left in 2012, Chicago has reached 500 homicides. Existing laws on the books in Chicago should make Chicago the safest big city in the United States due to the city having the toughest anti-gun law in the nation. Chicago public schools receives some of the most federal funding and taxes in Chicago and Cook county is high to help support vital services.
Can anyone explain why Chicago would still have such a high murder rate?

Pretty simple really:

Because there are no coordinated/similar gun laws in the surrounding region. So guns can still be easily brought into the city.

Look at Mexico. They have very strict gun laws but since the USA allows easy purchase of guns thousands of guns every year go across the border into Mexico.

While one may then want to point to Canada, they do not have the same level of additional elements like poverty and drugs etc. that are significant contributing factors. Even in Mexico and the USA where these factors are lower the gun violence drops drastically.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-12-28 10:07:07]

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-28 10:20:32 and read 2540 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
Look at Mexico. They have very strict gun laws but since the USA allows easy purchase of guns thousands of guns every year go across the border into Mexico.



Yet the gun of choice by most Mexican drug-lords is the AK-47 which is made in Russia and other knock offs made in other countries but none made in the United States.

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
Because there are no coordinated/similar gun laws in the surrounding region. So guns can still be easily brought into the city.



Wrong. I know of places to buy guns in Chicago city limits.
Must be all of those Bible-thumping right-wing Republican NRA members selling guns on the Dolton/Chicago border.  banghead 
If what you're saying is true, wouldn't this city's policies hurt those who are law abiding? Is this just feel good politics for politicians to make a name for themselves without any concern of the consequences?

[Edited 2012-12-28 10:21:06]

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: L-188
Posted 2012-12-28 10:29:52 and read 2518 times.

What can I say, firearms bans kill people.

That is why communities with strict defector bans like Chicago and Washington DC have these high rates.

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: tugger
Posted 2012-12-28 10:38:49 and read 2510 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Yet the gun of choice by most Mexican drug-lords is the AK-47 which is made in Russia and other knock offs made in other countries but none made in the United States.

Source?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Wrong. I know of places to buy guns in Chicago city limits.

Of course, there are places to legally and illegally buy firearms. I think that is the case most everywhere.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
If what you're saying is true, wouldn't this city's policies hurt those who are law abiding? Is this just feel good politics for politicians to make a name for themselves without any concern of the consequences?

No, the laws do not hurt law abiding citizens. People hurt law abiding citizens (remember if one thing can't be the cause for the harm to people then the same gos for other things).

Laws are created in response to situations and are enacted for good reason (usually), it is those that choose violate the laws the cause the problems. Same thing as illegal immigration, same thing as people who speed, same thing as people who use illegal drugs. Just because people break the laws does not mean the laws were bad or the reason they were put in place was wrong.

Tugg

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-28 10:51:13 and read 2495 times.

Chicago needs a good community organizer to bring hope & change and make things better.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):
That is why communities with strict defector bans like Chicago and Washington DC have these high rates.



Be careful with those facts. You might offend some people.

Quoting tugger (Reply 4):
Source?


Here is a pro-gun control news source that mentions the AK-47 as being the gun of choice. They neglect to mention that guns also come through Guatemala as well.
But of course that doesn't fit the; 'it's all American's fault narrative'.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2010/12/12/AR2010121202663.html

Quoting tugger (Reply 4):
Laws are created in response to situations and are enacted for good reason (usually),



As you already know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Why not ban everything to protect us from ourselves?

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: tugger
Posted 2012-12-28 11:01:57 and read 2483 times.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):
That is why communities with strict defector bans like Chicago and Washington DC have these high rates.

Me thinks there are many contributing factors actually.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
But of course that doesn't fit the; 'it's all American's fault narrative'.

Didn't mean to imply that if that's what you think I was doing. I was simply noting that neighboring areas laws are often contributing factors. America is most certainly not the cause of Mexico's problems, Mexico is.

And thanks for the source! Interesting.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
As you already know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Why not ban everything to protect us from ourselves?

Oh I don't disagree with you on this really. But I also agree with driving laws and automotive standards, and manufacturing standards, and building inspection requirements etc. Not that there are parts of each that bug me and I think are not going to achieve the desired affect but I do think laws and regulations are mostly good things to have and that in general we do the right thing more often than not.

Tugg

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-28 11:09:14 and read 2472 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
Me thinks there are many contributing factors actually.

No argument there.

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
Didn't mean to imply that if that's what you think I was doing.

No but so many of the anti-gun crowd love to rehash that line.

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
America is most certainly not the cause of Mexico's problems, Mexico is.

  
Amen to that!

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-12-28 11:19:24 and read 2457 times.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):
What can I say, firearms bans kill people.

That is why communities with strict defector bans like Chicago and Washington DC have these high rates.



On the contrary bans are quite effective, care to compare murder rates today to say 20 years ago?

New York City, 20 years ago there were 2,200 homicides (the vast majority by guns). This year, 2012, NYC will end the year with about 414 homicides. From 2,200 to a little over 400, keep in mind the population has grown. Simply amazing.

Chicago, 20 years ago there were over 750 homicides (vast majority by guns). This year 500, not as an impressive decline as NYC but a decline nonetheless. Again this with a larger population.

Washington DC, 20 years ago there were almost 500 homicides (the vast majority by guns). This year, 2012, Washington DC will end the year with less than 100 homicides.

Los Angeles had 1,100 homicides 20 years ago. This year, 2012, Los Angeles will be at about 300 homicides.

These are remarkable turnarounds, and proof that gun control works.

[Edited 2012-12-28 11:21:54]

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-28 11:26:20 and read 2432 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):



Ageing baby-boomer population has more to do with that.


http://chicagocrimescenes.blogspot.c...38-years-of-murder-in-chicago.html

By 2008, Chicago's murder rate was 18.03 per 100,000, roughly the same as it was in 1967.

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: roswell41
Posted 2012-12-28 12:10:11 and read 2401 times.

Much of the spike in murders in the 70s and 80s was due to the crack-cocaine introduction to the US markets and the associated violence. Drugs and their trade contribute more to violence in the US then almost any other factor in my estimation.

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: mt99
Posted 2012-12-28 12:14:29 and read 2396 times.

Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
With only 3 days left in 2012, Chicago has reached 500 homicides. Existing laws on the books in Chicago should make Chicago the safest big city in the United States due to the city having the toughest anti-gun law in the nation. Chicago public schools receives some of the most federal funding and taxes in Chicago and Cook county is high to help support vital services.

Thailand, with lax gun laws - has a crime rate much higher

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...it_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
Can anyone explain why Chicago would still have such a high murder rate?

Can anyone explain why does Thailand would will have such a high murder rate? After all there are enough guns for people to "defend themselves"

What the murder rate in Japan, how are their gun possession laws?

How are the gun laws in Detroit, St Loius, Oakland, Memphis, Birmignham, Atlanta, Baltimore, Stokton, Clevland, and Buffalo?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfi...of-americas-most-dangerous-cities/

[Edited 2012-12-28 12:19:17]

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2012-12-28 12:20:05 and read 2387 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Ageing baby-boomer population has more to do with that.

Hardly. The number of young adults (the ones doing most of the killing) living in the city hasn't changed remarkably over the past 30-40 years. While the baby-boom population aged (and in many cases moved out), they were replaced with new young adults.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
By 2008, Chicago's murder rate was 18.03 per 100,000, roughly the same as it was in 1967.

True, but Chicago's murder rate is vastly lower than it was in the 1970's, 80's or 90's.

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: Acheron
Posted 2012-12-28 13:01:45 and read 2338 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Yet the gun of choice by most Mexican drug-lords is the AK-47 which is made in Russia and other knock offs made in other countries but none made in the United States.

Is that so?.




As if AK aren't easy to come by in the US, anyway.

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: FlyDeltaJets
Posted 2012-12-28 13:02:09 and read 2338 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Wrong. I know of places to buy guns in Chicago city limits.

Is because of this

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
Because there are no coordinated/similar gun laws in the surrounding region. So guns can still be easily brought into the city.

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2012-12-28 14:17:31 and read 2285 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
The baby-boomers were replaced by fewer Gen Xers.

We're well past the Generation X'ers at this point. Average Gen Xer is 40 years old. Those in the prime crime age are Gen Y and later. While the population of the U.S. has aged, the number of young people living in inner city America hasn't declined significantly...certainly not by the levels of we've seen crime decline.

The article you posted even supports that:

"Experts also point to better policing strategies, more police on the streets, a record U.S. prison population, tougher gun control laws and improved economic conditions."

Sorry, but a small shift in demographics would not cause murder rates to drop by 50%!

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: Aaron747
Posted 2012-12-28 15:11:59 and read 2244 times.

Quoting roswell41 (Reply 10):
Drugs and their trade contribute more to violence in the US then almost any other factor in my estimation.

Precisely one of the reasons why it would seem one of the most sensible things to do would be to pull the rug out from under that industry through a total restructuring of the business via decriminalization and heavily regulated distribution similar to any other pharmaceutical items.

Watch what happens to gangs as their cash flow starts to dwindle and their reason for existence goes with it.

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-12-28 15:39:01 and read 2227 times.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 13):
As if AK aren't easy to come by in the US, anyway.

None of those guns are are AK-47s.....

This is an AK-47, well and AKM-47 actually. Notice it has a different receiver than every gun you just showed. The Banana clip has nothing to do with the type of gun.





Who are the people in reply 13? Do you know if they aren't the very criminals Superfly mentions. They could be, I have no idea, you can't tell by looking at them.

Take a look at this photo and see how many guns are in it.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb309/NWA747/Uswithguns2_zpsca6f770d.jpg


Who are these people? I'm second from the left with the SKS. Are these people armed criminals? Nope what we have here are a police officer, a high school teacher, a university professor and an automotive engineer. Nobody here has a criminal record and nobody is breaking any laws in this photo.

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: Acheron
Posted 2012-12-28 16:11:33 and read 2208 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 17):
None of those guns are are AK-47s.....

This is an AK-47, well and AKM-47 actually. Notice it has a different receiver than every gun you just showed. The Banana clip has nothing to do with the type of gun.

I know what an AK looks like and that the weapons in the pictures are AR-15 and its variants. My point was that high ranking cartel members have moved on from AK's nowadays and even if the AK's are still widespread for the lowest scum, that doesn't rule out a US origin either.

And yes, those in the pictures I posted are cartel members

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/3707/junior2.jpg

G-36
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/1715/armase.jpg

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2526/dsc1088r.jpg

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9800/peiarmassicariose129469.jpg

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: Flighty
Posted 2012-12-28 16:24:59 and read 2195 times.

One can be pretty sure that country music listeners are not doing the shooting. Location with known shooting history could be either gentrified via tax incentives, or country music could be piped in. I really don't think gang types are going to hang around looking tough with country music playing softly in the background. Ballet music, show tunes could be options as well.

On a real note, gentrification can really have an effect. Walking past tough guys in a sweater, carrying bottle of wine and happily greeting them on the way to a warm holiday party - they hate that stuff. It shatters their whole self image.

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: scbriml
Posted 2012-12-28 16:31:52 and read 2187 times.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):
What can I say, firearms bans kill people.

Epic pro-gun logic fail. If guns don't kill people, then gun bans don't kill people either.

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2012-12-28 17:28:52 and read 2158 times.

The rise in the murder rate in Chicago is disturbing and I suspect several factors that need further determination and detail.

It is generally understood that there has been a large rise in Mexican and Central American based street gangs and organizations, as legal and mainly illegals have arrived into Chicago. They complete for 'turf' in the drug and other criminal 'trades' that they often clash. They are notoriously difficult to get inside info on, to get cops undercover into and have structures that make it near impossible to try to repress.

The police, perhaps due to political pressures to protect the 'white' and downtown business areas first are constructively ignoring the highest risk areas. You have a reluctance for the best cops to work the bad percents with the highest rates of increase with murders, using political Democratic machine connections to not get assigned to them. Perhaps too, lousy police leadership, not using techniques to pinpoint crime hot spots, not going after the 'quality of life' minor crimes that lead to worse crimes, budget cuts yet still needing to fund unsustainable retirement and disability compensation. Backing off of going after family, spousal and relationship violence, especially in early stages before it escalates to murder.

In fact segregation of the poor in projects and certain areas of the city, declining numbers of 'good' paying factory and commercial jobs, a public schools system with many serious problems and hamstrung with bad politics, broken and often single and too young and poorly educated mothers, that encourages criminal gangs.

As noted by others, New York City has seen a drop in homicides by about 100 from last year, has similar strict gun laws as Chicago, but I suspect a more effective police department and social services system, perhaps less ethnic gang based violence and a different attitude of it's people as to gun use and possession.

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: Aaron747
Posted 2012-12-28 17:42:42 and read 2142 times.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 21):
In fact segregation of the poor in projects and certain areas of the city, declining numbers of 'good' paying factory and commercial jobs, a public schools system with many serious problems and hamstrung with bad politics, broken and often single and too young and poorly educated mothers, that encourages criminal gangs.

Exactly. Throw in the lucrative drug market provided by wholesale illicit status of everything sold on the street, and you have the textbook witches' brew.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 21):
The police, perhaps due to political pressures to protect the 'white' and downtown business areas first are constructively ignoring the highest risk areas. You have a reluctance for the best cops to work the bad percents with the highest rates of increase with murders, using political Democratic machine connections to not get assigned to them. Perhaps too, lousy police leadership, not using techniques to pinpoint crime hot spots, not going after the 'quality of life' minor crimes that lead to worse crimes, budget cuts yet still needing to fund unsustainable retirement and disability compensation. Backing off of going after family, spousal and relationship violence, especially in early stages before it escalates to murder.

   This can be found in almost any major American city today.

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: qantas077
Posted 2012-12-28 17:43:47 and read 2142 times.

I don't suppose these stats would have anything to do with it?

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2012/12/18/1226539/862013-guns.JPG

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-29 00:19:17 and read 2078 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 15):
the number of young people living in inner city America hasn't declined significantly...

Yes it has. That is why a lot of inner city schools are closing. Low enrollment.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 15):
Sorry, but a small shift in demographics would not cause murder rates to drop by 50%!

Where on earth are you getting that "50%" figure from? STT757 claims that Chicago had 750 homicides 20 years ago and down to 500 in 2012.
That is not a drop of 50% as you claim.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 16):
the most sensible things to do would be to pull the rug out from under that industry through a total restructuring of the business via decriminalization and heavily regulated distribution similar to any other pharmaceutical items.

  
Amen to that!

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2012-12-29 04:46:15 and read 2082 times.

Americans like to kill people. True story. Statistics per capita.

OMG!!! The gun rights people are going to come out and lambast me!

In other words, NYC record low. Don't hate on my city NY.

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2012-12-29 06:50:32 and read 2057 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 24):
Where on earth are you getting that "50%" figure from? STT757 claims that Chicago had 750 homicides 20 years ago and down to 500 in 2012.
That is not a drop of 50% as you claim.

Chicago had 943 homicides in 1992, so close to a 50% drop.

https://portal.chicagopolice.org/portal/page/portal/ClearPath/News/Statistical%20Reports/Murder%20Reports/MA11.pdf

Sorry, but demographic shifts don't come close to explaining that large of a drop in Chicago and other big cities.

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: Geezer
Posted 2012-12-29 08:04:07 and read 2034 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
While one may then want to point to Canada, they do not have the same level of additional elements like poverty and drugs etc. that are significant contributing factors. Even in Mexico and the USA where these factors are lower the gun violence drops drastically.
[/quote

I've just read this 9 time now, and I still have no idea what you're attempting to say, or prove. All of these "numbers"...all of these "statistics", all of these "opinions"............all of this "comparing" Chicago to New York City, or to any place else......proves, (or even suggests), absolutely NOTHING !

Tell you what.......you really want to know why "town A" has a high crime rate, lots of burglaries, home invasions, murders. and armed robberies ? While "town B", (which has identical population, same number of swimming pools, drug stores, banks, pizza parlors, and Wal-Marts........hasn't had a burglary, murder, home invasion, rape, or any other violent crime in the last 5 years ? Here's why "town B" has the much more favorable record; In "town A", just like a lot of towns in this country, THEY have lots of places to gamble, they have lots of "hookers" running the streets, they have lots of strip clubs, beer joints, porn shops, plus ALL of the other "things" that degenerates "look for" and are "comfortable" living around, PLUS, "town A also has VERY strict gun control laws, and only the cops are "allowed" to carry guns; ( their liberal mayor and town council had a big gun "buy back" a few years ago, and all of the local "gun nuts" had to "turn in" their guns. In short, it's a well known fact among criminals and degenerates in general, that "town A" is a very "convenient" place to carry on the activities that that sort of schmucks thrive on.

Meanwhile, "town B", (which is right down the road about 20 miles), has NO gambling, NO strip joints, NO porn shops, NO hookers running the streets, No whore houses in back alleys, and the Mayor and everyone on the town council are decent, honest, well educated, hard working people, and they all have families (and all of the children in town B have BOTH a mother and a father who "raise" them, feed them, teach them right from wrong, and many of the children belong to the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, and many of them even go to church; PLUS, "town B" also has a STRONG NRA chapter, and 75% of the people in town belong to it, and 99% of the people in town B have little signs by their front porch which reads, "this residence is protected by "Smith & Wesson, Remington, & Colt"; PLUS the alarm system is tied into the town system, which "sounds" at the Police Station, and at the office of the "neighborhood watch" co-ordinator. ( if I lived in "town B", I might even mention that I normally allow my six Burmese pythons have the "crawl of the house" when I'm away for any length of time.) ( but I WOULDN"T mention the rattlesnakes in the dresser drawers, or the black mamba in the basement.)

About 50 miles down the road, in the State Capitol, the "reporters" at the local news paper are "incredulous" that "town A"has such a "high crime rate", while "town B" is always just "so peaceful" ! ( kinda reminds me of the people who are always so "incredulous" when yet another deranged idiot goes on yet another "killing spree".)

Now.........(just for the sake of debate), let's assume we have some "illegal aliens" or "would-be terrorists" who have just came across our somewhat "poorly defended" border, and are desirous of "some action", some "fun", or just looking for a quick "score"; which town would YOU go to, to find what you're "looking for" ?

Here's another question for you; have YOU ever received a speeding ticket for driving too fast ? Have you ever come very close to losing your leg, due to sheer stupidity and carelessness while using a chain saw ? Have YOU ever smashed your thumb with a ball peen hammer while holding a cold chisel (bare handed) ? To be honest, I would have to answer "yes" to all of the above questions; but guess what......I LEARNED from every one of those unpleasant experiences; I retired from trucking in 1997........and the only "cop" I've had an occasion to talk to since, is my good friend, Mike Esslinger, who is the Sheriff of the County I live in, and another policeman who is a Police Chief of a nearby town, and who is also a registered NRA instructor in firearms, and who instructed me in the safe and proper used of them. Another of my best friends is a professional timber cutter for the biggest hard wood lumber company in Indiana, is the absolute BEST with a chain saw in the whole state, and has taught me everything I now know about the safe and efficient use and maintenance of my 5 chain saws. What I'm trying to point out here is simple; almost everyone makes mistakes, does dumb things, etc,etc,etc; a few people "learn" from their dumb mistakes, and quit making them, but unfortunately, many people just keep right on making them.

I like Airliners.net for many reasons; because of all the great photographs of airplanes, but mostly because of all of the many great people from countries all over the world that have emailed me, and I have become friends with; A few "see things" much like I do, and some have other "views" and "opinions"; which is just fine with me; I don't expect people to "like" things just because I do; I am much more likely to "expect" people to "do things" because they "work"; I fully expect to "learn" many new things in the future, because I have an open mind, and I fully realize that almost everyone "knows things" which I don't. If you want to listen to YOUR kind of music, that's fine with me; I hope you enjoy yourself; but don't throw sticks at me because I like Opera, or Ballet, or other kinds of classical music; You may "hate" guns.....you may be convinced that it's the "responsibility" of the police to "protect you" from crime; that's your choice; I will never attempt to "force" you to own a gun, or learn how to use one; and I fully expect due consideration. Want to refer to me as a "gun nut" ? Have at it ! (But don't cry when I refer to you as a "anti-gun nut") A lot of people on this forum have no idea what shooting guns is all about, yet because "they" don't own one, "they" don't want ME to own one either. I think a marvelous suggestion for many people would to run to Wal Mart, and buy a really nice big mirror, then hang it on the inside of your bathroom door; the next time you get on the forum and become so "upset" by "other people's" grammar, or their spelling, run and and take a nice long look in your new mirror; (you may discover something about life that you have previously overlooked.)


[quote=Superfly,reply=0]Can anyone explain why Chicago would still have such a high murder rate?

Yeah Larry, I think I can explain that pretty well; Chicago is a classic example of a very large city that has become completely corrupted by "management" and so-called "leadership" of one political party, over a very long period of time; oddly enough, even after saying that, I know an awful lot about the history of Chicago, and I think in many ways, the late Mayor Daley and his son were, in many ways, pretty damned good Mayors. (But almost anything can be improved upon)

I think the fool who is trying to "run" Chicago now "came into" a huge mess, and when he "leaves", he will leave a 10 times bigger mess. Even M.B. in NYC is a pretty good Mayor in some ways, but his predecessor was about 3 times as effective.
You're never going to "slow" violent crime down in any large city as long as the violent thugs and criminals can commit crimes and get away with it. ( And I think even many of the "street punks" in Chicago would be smart enough to stay the hell OUT of "town B" ! )

Chicago became "the way it is" over a very long period of time, and I really don't expect to see much, (if any) improvement in my lifetime. On a just "slightly more positive" note, Chicago isn't nearly "as bad" as Detroit is; (yet) (and I AM holding my breath on that one!)

Charley

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-12-29 08:19:07 and read 2025 times.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 23):
I don't suppose these stats would have anything to do with it?

I'm not arguing we don't have a problem, but please, read into some of these subjects before posting a simple, snazzy jpeg. There are many things I see in there that boost the stats up and make it look so horrible. A pawn shop that buys and sells a couple guns is lumped in with a huge gun store, yet they don't include all the small super markets. They include C&R and AK builder hobbyists with the big time gun dealers. I can go on

As we see with this thread, the issue is very complex... more complex than a simple, over-simplified picture can show

I'd argue that Chicago has a higher gun violence rate because it's a city an cities almost always have more crime (and poverty and drugs that contribute to it.) I don't think gun free zones or non gun free zones instantly have anything to do with it... I think weeding out the untrained idiots with guns and only allowing truly competent people with firearms is the recipe for success. All this simplifying we are doing does not do this situation justice

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-29 09:03:13 and read 2002 times.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 27):
Yeah Larry, I think I can explain that pretty well; Chicago is a classic example of a very large city that has become completely corrupted by "management" and so-called "leadership" of one political party, over a very long period of time;



  
It's ingrained in to the city's psyche.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 27):
I think in many ways, the late Mayor Daley and his son were, in many ways, pretty damned good Mayors.


Old man Daley -yes. His son? No way!

Quoting Geezer (Reply 27):
I think the fool who is trying to "run" Chicago now "came into" a huge mess, and when he "leaves", he will leave a 10 times bigger mess.



Raham Emmanuel left the Obama administration when the job became too tough and he needed another rat-hole to hold on to some sort of political power.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 26):
I think the fool who is trying to "run" Chicago now "came into" a huge mess, and when he "leaves", he will leave a 10 times bigger mess.



Rather than trying to denying factors that have lead to the decline in violent crime across the US, take some time to read over this in-depth study on this very issue. I find it interesting that gun control and gun buy back programs isn't listed as a contributing factor.

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levi...evittUnderstandingWhyCrime2004.pdf

Quoting Geezer (Reply 27):
Chicago isn't nearly "as bad" as Detroit is;



Parts of Chicago are just as bad.

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: falstaff
Posted 2012-12-29 09:04:46 and read 2006 times.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 18):
AK's are still widespread for the lowest scum, that doesn't rule out a US origin either.

There are some US built AKs. Here is an example. I would imagine that there are some non US AR 15s too.

http://www.impactguns.com/arsenal-sa...-hammer-forged-barrel-sam7-01.aspx

I have read some stuff published by the NRA (which anti gunners don't consider a real source) that there is corruption in the Mexican military and police forces and that some guns are coming from those sources.

About a year ago there was a picture in Detroit Free Press that showed a huge cache of drugs and guns captured by Mexican Authorities. I studied the photo and saw that one of the guns recovered was a M-60 machine gun. That gun may be of US origin, but there is no way it came from a legal source. You can't walk into ANY store in the USA and buy an M60. So where did it come from? My guess is that it came from somebody inside the Mexican military or another country's armed forces.



Quoting ltbewr (Reply 21):
It is generally understood that there has been a large rise in Mexican and Central American based street gangs and organizations, as legal and mainly illegals have arrived into Chicago.

I bet a fair number of them get guns the same way they get drugs, funneled into the USA from other countries where corruption is king.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 18):
My point was that high ranking cartel members have moved on from AK's nowadays and even if the AK's are still widespread for the lowest scum,

I know in Detroit that AK-47s are being used in a large variety of crimes lately. It has been reported that fully automatic AK-47s have been used in some recent crimes. Considering that AK-47s that are legally purchased at stores are the semi-automatic variety I would bet that they are coming into the country illegally to begin with. You can build AKs from kits, but most of the good ones are gone now. You still need a US made receiver (and barrel on recent imports). There is no way to use the full auto receiver because it was destroyed when it came into the country and trust me there is no way to put it back together.

Topic: RE: Chicago Reaches 500 Murders In 2012
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-12-29 09:22:19 and read 1992 times.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 13):


Who is the lady in the 2nd photo? She's kinda cute.  
Quoting falstaff (Reply 17):
This is an AK-47, well and AKM-47 actually. Notice it has a different receiver than every gun you just showed. The Banana clip has nothing to do with the type of gun.


Ah the Falstaff beer shrine and gun rack. I miss hanging out there and I'll make sure to visit again next time I'm in the states. When you come here, I'll take you to some shooting ranges that have guns you can't use in the US anymore.
It will be a blast!  
Quoting falstaff (Reply 17):
I'm second from the left with the SKS.


Fine piece of machinery you're holding there.   

Quoting Acheron (Reply 18):


3 Granadas?
I'll take one 1976 Ghia coupe, one 1978 Ghia sedan and one 1981 station wagon.


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