Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/non_aviation/read.main/915316/

Topic: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: BNAflyer78
Posted 2005-08-25 16:41:27 and read 3069 times.

I've been thinking, why are gas prices really so high? I mean, I know what's being reported - high demand, limited production, etc. But how is that different from years past?

Just making a casual observation, it seems to me that what it boils down to are just plain greedy oil companies/cartels. Just look at this ridiculousness - Tropical Storm Katrina is approaching Florida. OH MY GOD, PRODUCTION WILL BE CUT FOR A WEEK! What is that?!? This is a TROPICAL STORM, not a major hurricane (which would make the argument a little more relevant), and certainly not a major threat other than heavy rains, which any tropical system (even a cluster of rain showers) can produce. So why don't we see oil rise when there is a chance of rain in the Gulf of Mexico? This makes no sense.

Then there's the power outage in Basra that drove up prices; the protests in Ecuador which threatened production, and then someone on the news this morning cited the atomic nuclear talks in Iran as a threat to production as well. Frankly, while these events are definitely warrant some attention, I fail to see how they cause a massive oil crisis. Seriously, if these types of events can raise prices that much, then in recent years, why have oil prices not reached even higher??

And before anyone asks what kind of vehicle I drive, it's a VW Jetta - I loathe people who drive massive SUVs....but that's another topic (although I must say to all the "soccer moms," if you can't drive it or park it, don't buy it!)

Ok I'm done.  flamed 

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: KROC
Posted 2005-08-25 16:44:28 and read 3063 times.

The real reason? The lack of any new refinery plants. Thanks to the tree huggers for that.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: Cornish
Posted 2005-08-25 16:49:25 and read 3056 times.

You think your gas prices are high.

They're up to the equivalent of 6.5 USD a gallon over here now  grumpy 

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: DucatiRacer
Posted 2005-08-25 16:53:48 and read 3052 times.

Quoting KROC (Reply 1):
The real reason? The lack of any new refinery plants. Thanks to the tree huggers for that

I will agree with this as a reason GAS prices may have some justification for being elevated, but what does refining capacity have to do with the price of the raw material, OIL? I think some blame comes from the rapidly increasing demand coming from Asia.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: BNAflyer78
Posted 2005-08-25 16:58:31 and read 3044 times.

Quoting DucatiRacer (Reply 3):
I will agree with this as a reason GAS prices may have some justification for being elevated, but what does refining capacity have to do with the price of the raw material, OIL? I think some blame comes from the rapidly increasing demand coming from Asia.

Here's another thing I forgot to mention. Shouldn't there be some regulation on how much each country is allowed to store (I'm showing my ignorance if there is already an international regulation in place)?

Think about it - it really becomes a Catch-22 essentially: Each country that has the capability is massively creating oil reserves to ensure they have enough when supply dwindles. But the supply is dwindling because everybody is holding large reserves. This is oversimplification, but still - does anyone else see this problem??

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: TedTAce
Posted 2005-08-25 16:59:17 and read 3044 times.

Quoting BNAflyer78 (Thread starter):
I've been thinking, why are gas prices really so high?

Outsourcing.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: GuitrThree
Posted 2005-08-25 17:01:51 and read 3041 times.

The three biggest reasons that our gas prices have gone up so much, not necessarily in any order:

1) Liberals and their whacko environmentalists not allowing drilling in the US and off the coast of the US (but complain when they say we go to war over oil).
2) Liberals and their whacko environmentalists not allowing new refineries to be built and/or the combination of the over 60 different blends needed. Either build more or refine only three or four blends, such as Winter North, Winter South, and Summer All.
3) China's recently exploding Oil importation. Just a few short years ago, China was an EXPORTER of oil. Today, they consume over 7 million barrels a day, most of it imported, and in a few years that's expected to double to 14 million. If we don't do something on our own, look out then.

There you have it.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: TedTAce
Posted 2005-08-25 17:04:11 and read 3033 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 6):
1) Liberals and their whacko environmentalists not allowing drilling in the US and off the coast of the US (but complain when they say we go to war over oil).
2) Liberals and their whacko environmentalists not allowing new refineries to be built and/or the combination of the over 60 different blends needed. Either build more or refine only three or four blends, such as Winter North, Winter South, and Summer All.

How about dumbasses who like being the Saudi's bitches instead of finding an alternative?

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: CaptOveur
Posted 2005-08-25 17:05:33 and read 3031 times.

Reply 7 and nobody has blamed Bush, and Bush alone.. I wonder how long that will last?

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: BNAflyer78
Posted 2005-08-25 17:07:20 and read 3027 times.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 7):
How about dumbasses who like being the Saudi's bitches instead of finding an alternative?

Hmmm......Dubya?  box   duck 

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: ArniePie
Posted 2005-08-25 17:08:31 and read 3022 times.

Quoting BNAflyer78 (Thread starter):
I've been thinking, why are gas prices really so high?

More than one reason:
-Demand outstrips supply.
-Low oil reserves mainly in the US.
-accident in a couple of mayor refineries (also 1 in the US I believe).
-speculation.
-Fear or panic factor.


If you think prices at the pump are high now just wait until next summer as it takes between 9 and 12 months for a price change from crude oil to show trough at the pump.
Here politicians are saying that the prices for oil and gas should no longer be coupled because this will lead to an unnecessary pricehike for Gas.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: BNAflyer78
Posted 2005-08-25 17:10:58 and read 3020 times.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 10):
If you think prices at the pump are high now just wait until next summer as it takes between 9 and 12 months for a price change from crude oil to show trough at the pump.
Here politicians are saying that the prices for oil and gas should no longer be coupled because this will lead to an unnecessary pricehike for Gas.

I also heard today that Hawaii has become the first state to cap the price of wholesale gasoline. Wonder what effect this will have and if other states will follow....

http://pacific.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2005/08/22/daily33.html

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: GuitrThree
Posted 2005-08-25 17:12:50 and read 3016 times.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 7):
How about dumbasses who like being the Saudi's bitches instead of finding an alternative?

Wow. I suggest finding oil on our own soil and forgetting the Middle East and you come back with with that?

And yes, we are looking for alternatives. There is nothing better, yet. When there is, we'll buy. But until then, its oil. Oh, sure, I can go buy one of those electric cars that go 70 miles between charges (I drive 300+ a day), and charge it every night using electricity generated by coal fired steam plants, and then every 3 or so years I'll be throwing 10-15 lead and acid filled batteries away. Yea.. that makes a whole lotta sense, in a Liberal whacko environmentalists way.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2005-08-25 17:21:36 and read 3003 times.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 5):
Outsourcing.

LOL. Right. Don't forget the Jews!!! They must be behind this!  Silly

Quoting BNAflyer78 (Reply 11):
I also heard today that Hawaii has become the first state to cap the price of wholesale gasoline.

Price caps never-ever work. Who is subsidizing the price cap?

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: BNAflyer78
Posted 2005-08-25 17:27:55 and read 2995 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
Price caps never-ever work. Who is subsidizing the price cap?

Not sure - but it's imposed by the state legislature, so my assumption would be the state. Can't imagine what their budget on this would be though.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: Tbar220
Posted 2005-08-25 17:31:15 and read 2994 times.

Demand is just way too high. I don't think its a refining problem as its the base product, Oil, which is costing too much. Its simply that our society drives too many SUV's, owns too many cars, and just drives way too much. With demand so high, combined with the horrible instability in the middle east, why wouldn't prices go up.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: ArniePie
Posted 2005-08-25 17:33:54 and read 2990 times.

Things won't change as rapid as some politicians want (consuming less energy per capita) but I have to say that you are starting to see some good initiatives come up for a better more efficient use of fossil fuels.

More specific I'm talking the Prius (Toyota) hybrid type of cars.
If I recall correctly Lexus brought out a new very fuel efficient and usable hybrid SUV not so long ago and I heard they also are planning a 50-60 mpg serious sportscar (300BHP-range).

As oil gets more expensive more and more incentives are given to the industry to develop a usable more efficient (and usually also cleaner) alternative.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: SATX
Posted 2005-08-25 17:36:47 and read 2984 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 6):
1) Liberals and their whacko environmentalists not allowing drilling in the US and off the coast of the US (but complain when they say we go to war over oil).

It's amazing that you claim liberals and environmentalist have so much power to influence poor little Corporate America and yet they don't even have a majority control over any branch of the federal government. How is this possible?

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 6):
2) Liberals and their whacko environmentalists not allowing new refineries to be built and/or the combination of the over 60 different blends needed. Either build more or refine only three or four blends, such as Winter North, Winter South, and Summer All.

Didn't the oil companies close many refineries, even as they would have surely known that new ones might be resisted in some parts of the country? Why not just build new refineries where there was less resistance? Why build anything at all if having a lack of supply allows you to post the highest profits on record?

If liberals are really as damaging to the US economy as everyone implies, then it truly amazes me all that they haven't all been rounded up and shipped over to Gitmo in the name of patriotism. I suppose we should never mind that the US economy, where all these 'whacko environmentalists' do battle with the ever humble and wholesome men and women of Corporate America just happens to be the largest and among the strongest economies in the world. This battle has been going on since the 1960's and yet America seems to be doing just fine.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: NUair
Posted 2005-08-25 17:37:02 and read 2984 times.

Why would we build more refineries when the ones we have now are only running at 94%?

Why would we build more refineries when we can import final products for cheaper than it costs to produce domestically? In which case building more refineries in the US would increase final costs.

Refining capacity has nothing to do with it! Product is available and as far as I know no shortages have been reported in the US since the late 70's.

As was pointed out the cost of refinery input aka crude is increasing rapidly. How does increasing refining capacity help with that?

So we need more cheap crude...

Well we blew up Iraq
we are botching relations with Venezuela
we are allowing Chevron to buy Unocal so they can keep on restricting production and keep prices and margins high
we concentrate on Alaska crude which is only enough to supply 33% of the US market for one year and it would be tapped

So we need to decrease demand

well we are buying SUV's
we are not increasing fuel efficiency standards until 2008
we are cutting back on public transportation funding


 Confused

I have trouble understanding why gas is only $3 per gallon.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: TedTAce
Posted 2005-08-25 17:44:21 and read 2975 times.

From Drudge:

These dumbasses aren't/didn't help:

AP: Of All Gas Consumers, President Bush May Be Biggest...
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/08/24/D8C6HRS80.html

FLASHBACK: Clinton Shatters Presidential Foreign Travel Record: 154 Days...
http://www.senate.gov/~rpc/releases/1998/travel3.htm

DRUDGE '97: GORE BURNS 439,500 LBS OF FUEL TO ATTEND 'GLOBAL WARMING' SUMMIT...
http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/...AD3B1-9FAF-4037-BF26-573B2826B2C3}

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 12):
And yes, we are looking for alternatives.

Are Oj and Robert Blake helping you?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
LOL. Right. Don't forget the Jews!!! They must be behind this!

Why don't you get the fact that if we were not sending jobs over there, they wouldn't have extra money to spend on gas??

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2005-08-25 17:48:32 and read 2969 times.

Quoting NUair (Reply 18):
Why would we build more refineries when the ones we have now are only running at 94%?

Source, please?

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2005-08-25 17:51:31 and read 2968 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 6):
The three biggest reasons that our gas prices have gone up so much, not necessarily in any order:

1) Liberals and their whacko environmentalists not allowing drilling in the US and off the coast of the US (but complain when they say we go to war over oil).
2) Liberals and their whacko environmentalists not allowing new refineries to be built and/or the combination of the over 60 different blends needed. Either build more or refine only three or four blends, such as Winter North, Winter South, and Summer All.
3) China's recently exploding Oil importation. Just a few short years ago, China was an EXPORTER of oil. Today, they consume over 7 million barrels a day, most of it imported, and in a few years that's expected to double to 14 million. If we don't do something on our own, look out then.

There you have it.

I rest my case about people like GuitrThree: EVERYTHING IS THE FAULT OF THE LIBERALS in their minds. It's hogwash; it isn't the truth; it's a lie, in fact, but they can't think any other way.

One reason the prices are so high is the rapidly increasing demand from China and India, and the fact that the U.S. will not curb it's demand either. The pie is being eaten by more hungry mouths, to make an analogy, and there's simply not enough to satisfy everyone.

It isn't the fault of Liberals. That's so stupid that it really doesn't deserve serious consideration.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 12):
And yes, we are looking for alternatives.

No, we're not! Bush's energy plan was heavy on new oil exploration and nuclear energy. That isn't new-that's old, and it was weak, if non-existant on finding new sources of energy outside of those.

Again, another piece of conservative hogwash.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: SATX
Posted 2005-08-25 17:55:17 and read 2963 times.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 8):
Reply 7 and nobody has blamed Bush, and Bush alone.. I wonder how long that will last?

Hush, hush, little TROLL. Either that or find something relevant to post instead.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 16):
If I recall correctly Lexus brought out a new very fuel efficient and usable hybrid SUV not so long

You recall incorrectly. Independent testing shows that the vehicle brings no significant improvement in fuel economy during normal driving and in fact gets worse mileage in some cases. All of the 'hybrid' technology was diverted to help improve horsepower, but the extra weight of the hybrid components negated any practical improvement in acceleration as well. In other words... IT WAS JUST A PUBLICITY STUNT that was meant to appeal to both environmentalists and power enthusiasts, but ended up satisfying neither once the truth was out.

New York Times...

Quote:
AUTOMOBILES | July 31, 2005, Sunday

BEHIND THE WHEEL/2006 Lexus RX400h; The Hybrid Emperor's New Clothes

ONE question lingers after driving the 2006 Lexus RX400h: How did it come to this, that Toyota is now selling a hybrid gas-electric vehicle with no tangible fuel economy ... In my test-driving, the Lexus hybrid, which is based on the gasoline-only RX 330, did not achieve better mileage

---------------

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 16):
I heard they also are planning a 50-60 mpg serious sportscar (300BHP-range).

Have you ever been to an auto-show before? All car makers love to talk about making all kinds of revolutionairy vehicles that they know and we know will never even be attempted in the real world. My guess is that this is yet another example of that.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: TedTAce
Posted 2005-08-25 18:19:51 and read 2946 times.

Quoting SATX (Reply 22):
My guess is that this is yet another example of that.

You guessed wrong..

There was an article on Drudge where they were developing a car that has met targets as described

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: NUair
Posted 2005-08-25 18:22:39 and read 2944 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 20):
Source, please?

EIA Petroleum Supply Monthly report - table 29 (only through May is currently available)

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...ical/2005/2005_06/psm_2005_06.html

January 91.3%
February 90.63%
March 90.2%
April 92.6%
May 94.1%

You can blame environmentalists all you want but bottom line is nobody wants to build or invest in building a new refinery and over 55 major refineries are sitting around idle (EIA) and they have already passed all env. requirements. Bottom line is foreign products are still cheaper.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: FlyingTexan
Posted 2005-08-25 18:24:49 and read 2941 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 6):
drilling

Its exploration.  Wink

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: Cfalk
Posted 2005-08-25 18:33:10 and read 2940 times.

Quoting NUair (Reply 18):
Why would we build more refineries when the ones we have now are only running at 94%?

There are 2 bottlenecks. One is crude production, which is now running at some 95-96% capacity, and I assume your figure for refineries is correct.

One thing to understand about any mechanical process is that 100% capacity is not achievable. A refinery will always have some part of the machinery shut down for maintainance and repairs. Same goes for the oil extraction and transfer equipment out to ships. With high-speed industrial equipment, effective capacity might be only 70% of theoretical. For industries with slower, simpler machines, like the oil industry, it will be probably in the 90% range.

So 94% capacity is probably as much as you can do.

Charles

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2005-08-25 18:38:36 and read 2933 times.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 19):
Why don't you get the fact that if we were not sending jobs over there, they wouldn't have extra money to spend on gas??

Wow. I don't even know what to say to that. Just wow....

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: TedTAce
Posted 2005-08-25 18:39:06 and read 2933 times.

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 25):
Its exploration. Wink

I'd like to explore someone's niece... Big grin

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: SATX
Posted 2005-08-25 18:42:42 and read 2930 times.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 23):
There was an article on Drudge where they were developing a car that has met targets as described

When/if it's ever an actual production car out on the roads of America and I can go buy one at my local dealership, we'll talk. Until then...

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: NUair
Posted 2005-08-25 19:28:24 and read 2911 times.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 26):
So 94% capacity is probably as much as you can do.

Except that it was at 97.1% in August of 2004 and averaged 98% for 3rd quarter of 1998.

(EIA Petroleum Supply Annual)

1998 94.76%
1999 92.23%
2000 91.71%
2001 91.40%
2002 89.04%
2003 90.91%
2004 91.12%
1Q05 92.24%

But as I do work for the oil companies I like the idea of less environmental restrictions  Smile It means less costs and higher profits for my clients!

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: ArniePie
Posted 2005-08-25 19:43:10 and read 2903 times.

Quoting SATX (Reply 22):
You recall incorrectly. Independent testing shows that the vehicle brings no significant improvement in fuel economy during normal driving and in fact gets worse mileage in some cases. All of the 'hybrid' technology was diverted to help improve horsepower, but the extra weight of the hybrid components negated any practical improvement in acceleration as well. In other words... IT WAS JUST A PUBLICITY STUNT that was meant to appeal to both environmentalists and power enthusiasts, but ended up satisfying neither once the truth was out.

Well I'm no expert in the matter (hybrid) so I'll take your word for it.
How does the Prius compares with a comparable car (size,weight,performance) in its class?
I just ask because I'm genuinely interested

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: Cfalk
Posted 2005-08-25 20:01:04 and read 2899 times.

Quoting NUair (Reply 30):
Except that it was at 97.1% in August of 2004 and averaged 98% for 3rd quarter of 1998.

But is that sustainable over any period of time?

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: SATX
Posted 2005-08-25 20:12:58 and read 2894 times.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 32):
But is that sustainable over any period of time?

The explosions, fires, and shutdowns would tend to imply 'not very long'. Then again, who knows what the real story is with these oil companies? They don't exactly have the best records for responsible stewardship over their long and sordid histories.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: N1120A
Posted 2005-08-25 20:21:51 and read 2890 times.

Quoting KROC (Reply 1):
The real reason? The lack of any new refinery plants. Thanks to the tree huggers for that.

Actually, there are many refineries that have been approved for constructions. The oil companies have just seen fit not to build them

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 6):
1) Liberals and their whacko environmentalists not allowing drilling in the US and off the coast of the US

Excuse me? You ever look off Houma, LA or Santa Barbara, CA? There is lots of off shore drilling and it has actually ruined local economies (as in the case of the Houma Fisheries) and polluted the water and land (before greater environmental regulation, oil was constantly washing ashore in Santa Barbara). Drilling may produce short term gains in oil production but it actually ruins the economy in the long term

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 8):

Reply 7 and nobody has blamed Bush, and Bush alone.. I wonder how long that will last?

I am wondering how long it will be before you say it is due to someone's manner that they were beaten up by racist INS and DHS agents

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: NUair
Posted 2005-08-25 20:50:25 and read 2880 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
Actually, there are many refineries that have been approved for constructions. The oil companies have just seen fit not to build them

We have 55 operational refineries that are sitting idle in the US. Nobody needs or will build any new refining capacity here.

Quoting SATX (Reply 33):
The explosions, fires, and shutdowns would tend to imply 'not very long'. Then again, who knows what the real story is with these oil companies? They don't exactly have the best records for responsible stewardship over their long and sordid histories.

Even with the BP refinery explosion (which was just one smaller unit) gasoline production ran at its normal rate. The shutdowns are normal and the EIA utilization numbers are based on stream days (accounts for shut downs) not calender days.

Refineries are built to run at over 98% utilization. 1Q05 average is less than 93%.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: MrChips
Posted 2005-08-25 20:59:44 and read 2872 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 6):

1) Liberals and their whacko environmentalists not allowing drilling in the US and off the coast of the US (but complain when they say we go to war over oil).



Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
Excuse me? You ever look off Houma, LA or Santa Barbara, CA? There is lots of off shore drilling and it has actually ruined local economies (as in the case of the Houma Fisheries) and polluted the water and land (before greater environmental regulation, oil was constantly washing ashore in Santa Barbara). Drilling may produce short term gains in oil production but it actually ruins the economy in the long term

Hold on a second...its not that the "communist liberal enviro-whackos" (or whatever the hell you call them these days) are blocking exploration, the fact is this - In North America, there is simply very little left to explore. Reserves (not tanks full of the stuff, but that which is in the ground still) aren't growing at all, and conventional oil production has been falling for the past 10-15 years overall.

I can't speak of what role regulatory agencies play in US oil exploration, but here in Alberta, if what you described ever happened here, N1120A, the company would be forced to shut down production, clean up the mess, re-vitalize any of the damaged ecosystem, pay a huge fine, and then they get to restart production ONLY after they prove that they can prevent spills like that.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 6):

2) Liberals and their whacko environmentalists not allowing new refineries to be built and/or the combination of the over 60 different blends needed. Either build more or refine only three or four blends, such as Winter North, Winter South, and Summer All.
3) China's recently exploding Oil importation. Just a few short years ago, China was an EXPORTER of oil. Today, they consume over 7 million barrels a day, most of it imported, and in a few years that's expected to double to 14 million. If we don't do something on our own, look out then

2) Again, it's not the Reds' fault. Every oil company in the US has been closing old refineries in sagging markets simply to streamline operations. Now we are feeling the pinch from it. Do the oil companies care? No. If anything, the arrangement they have now is better for them.

3) Way to call the kettle black. I have a hard time believing that China ever exported a meaningful amount of oil, if any at all. And as for consumption, there are 1.3 billion people consuming 7 million barrels of oil a day, and that's a threat to US national security? When you have 280 million people consuming 15 million barrels of oil a day? Fully 9 TIMES as much per capita as China? When you consider that almost all of this oil is imported as well, you are your own biggest national security threat, if that logic is to be applied.

Furthermore, what do you propose you should do about China's "greedy" oil consumption?

[Edited 2005-08-25 21:02:59]

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: B744F
Posted 2005-08-26 00:32:48 and read 2829 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
(before greater environmental regulation, oil was constantly washing ashore in Santa Barbara).

I can assure you this is still taking place.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: B744F
Posted 2005-08-26 00:34:58 and read 2828 times.

Oh and if you want to know the real reasons why gas prices are so high, take a look at the oil companies profits. Theres your answer.

People can blame the left and the right all they want, but the bottom line is, these corporations have realized they can work with the powerful governments like the Saudis to keep prices high while pretending like drilling a few fields in Alaska or off the coast of California will actually do something for world-wide prices.

The right has been in bed with the Saudis and oil companies since WWII ended, the left and center have done little to change this problem, so in the end, it is our fault for not doing anything except acting like little children wanting to buy more toy cars.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: B727
Posted 2005-08-26 02:32:33 and read 2808 times.

The real reason is Corprate greed. As long as Bush is in office he will allow Exxon Mobile and other large oil companies to run it up our ass at the pump. This country needs a total 100% stand down for driving or actually doind anything for a week straight. Shut this place down and let Bush know we wont stand for it.


B727
Glenn

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: JeepBoy
Posted 2005-08-26 03:06:01 and read 2798 times.

Hhhhm..

Has anyone considered that perhaps demand v’s supply v’s plain old geology is the real cause for oil prices being so high?

Remember that oil is a finite resource that will (and is) suffer from the effects of resource depletion. Most experts believe we have consumed 50% of all easily recoverable oil and whats left is going to be considerably more expensive to extract, refine (sour crude) and deliver.

There is only so much that can be sucked out of the ground and delivered at any one time and once demand exceeds supply the remaining reserves are going to be expensive, what we are seeing now is still relatively cheap oil and as demand growth does not match supply expect bigger jumps in the price of a barrel for everyone.

PEAK OIL? Peak oil is when the world reaches the top of the production curve and plateua’s then slowly goes into decline year after year never again being able to supply us with enough oil to meet global demand. Many well known scientists, geologists, industry experts and financiers believe the world has probably reached ‘Peak oil’ right now.

Most people complain about the cost of a tank of gas with rising prices. But think about this fact – oil is used in the production process of just about everything we touch. From the production of food (farm machinery / pesticides / transport of food) through to phamaceuticals, plastics, rubber, cleaning products, body care products (shampoos etc etc) and more.

I could go into the implications of this for the industrialised world world but will rather direct those of you who would like to know to the following sites that can explain:

This is probably one of the better sites at giving an introduction about the peaking of oil production, it also contains many links to other sites:

http://www.energybulletin.net/primer.php

Also for those of you whould like a well known financiers perspective (and former energy advisor to Bush) go here:

http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/research.aspx?Type=msspeeches

Also you can just google ‘peak oil’..

Go ahead and educate yourself on one of the most pressing and important issues (besides climate change) that face mankind.

Cheers!

Jb

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: Seb146
Posted 2005-08-26 03:55:13 and read 2789 times.

I heard there were planned outages for refineries, planned for this year. Just because output from refineries is at 94% or whatever, how many gallons is that a day? Is the per gallon figure up or down from 5 years ago? 1 year ago? Is this the same number of refineries from 5 or 10 years ago?

Also, what has Bush done to help curb the use of petrolium? Spending on Amtrak is down. IIRC, most of the energy bill is centered around petrolium. What good will that do? Why not walk to the store. Or, better yet, contact your Congressperson and find out what alternatives they are planning on finding when the oil runs out. Bush will not look that far ahead.

GO CANUCKS!!

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: GuitrThree
Posted 2005-08-26 06:00:10 and read 2770 times.

Amazing. Totally amazing. Are you liberals so programmed to go into attack mode as soon as you see my name or anyone who is conservative? Case in point. I stated three reasons in reply #6, which, I repeat, were in no particular order: (1) No more drilling in the US/off its coast allowed, (2) Refineries, and their 60+ blends, and (3), China's big increase in demand.

I guess Falcon started foaming before he got to number three, because as he was going off my "liberal comments," he must have missed #3 as he said:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
One reason the prices are so high is the rapidly increasing demand from China and India, and the fact that the U.S. will not curb it's demand either. The pie is being eaten by more hungry mouths, to make an analogy, and there's simply not enough to satisfy everyone.

Umm, did I not basically say that in number three??


Now.. on to my comments and their replies:

Quoting MrChips (Reply 36):
3) Way to call the kettle black. I have a hard time believing that China ever exported a meaningful amount of oil, if any at all. And as for consumption, there are 1.3 billion people consuming 7 million barrels of oil a day, and that's a threat to US national security? When you have 280 million people consuming 15 million barrels of oil a day? Fully 9 TIMES as much per capita as China? When you consider that almost all of this oil is imported as well, you are your own biggest national security threat, if that logic is to be applied.

MrChips. I NEVER said that the people of China are using too much oil, and I never said the US citizens are free to use what they want while the people of China can't. And I never said that was a threat to national security. What I did say was that they were using more, thus, more demand and less supply. They are free to use as much as they want. And, no, China wasn't a big exporter. I never said that either. But, they did export some, and now they are importing a ton, pointing out the amount they were using compared to now, and once again creating more of a demand.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 36):
Hold on a second...its not that the "communist liberal enviro-whackos" (or whatever the hell you call them these days) are blocking exploration, the fact is this - In North America, there is simply very little left to explore. Reserves (not tanks full of the stuff, but that which is in the ground still) aren't growing at all, and conventional oil production has been falling for the past 10-15 years overall.

Fact is, there is plenty of off shore and oil in Alaska to last us for years. Remember ANWR a few months ago? Do I need to remind you of all the democrats crying over to the drilling that is now allowed?? Really? Do I, because I can, and it will really make you look foolish to sit here and tell us that Democrats don't mind us drilling on our own soil, but thats a waste of time because we've already drilled it all out. ANWR, what amounts to a fence post square on an acre lot, and the left has a fit over it. Yes, the left is stopping drilling in the USA.

Quoting NUair (Reply 18):
Why would we build more refineries when the ones we have now are only running at 94%?

Why would we build more refineries when we can import final products for cheaper than it costs to produce domestically? In which case building more refineries in the US would increase final costs.

Refining capacity has nothing to do with it! Product is available and as far as I know no shortages have been reported in the US since the late 70's.

NUair, as I stated, the problem is with the 60+ different types of Gas being needed in all of the US. Do any of you here realize that Gas sold in western states such as Nevada or Washington is different than California? Yes? No? Who cares you say? What difference does it make? Well, its simple, I guess too simple for some to see here. A refinery can't just "switch" over from one blend to the next. If California is running low in fuel in LA, they just can't go truck it or pump it in from Nevada. It HAS to come from the refinery with the CA blend. Same things happen every day across the country, causing more and more price hikes, as supply of some blends are lower than others at times.
So, like I said, instead of thinking, "hey, that makes a whole lot of sense," most of you lefties just blow it off to "another piece of conservative hogwash." It makes total sense to take the strictest standard, and make that the blend. Again, winter and summer blends are different, especially based on climate, so a Winter blend made for the cold Winters of the north should be one blend, and the Winter blend for the south more mild Winters could be another blend. During the summer, all of the country could use the same blend of gas. Now, how much sense does that make?? Three blends instead of 60+. Well, to those that actually read my posts, probably a lot. For those that don't get past my screen name, well, you've probably not read it because you went into instant attack mode.

Oh, and finally,

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 12):
And yes, we are looking for alternatives.

No, we're not! Bush's energy plan was heavy on new oil exploration and nuclear energy. That isn't new-that's old, and it was weak, if non-existant on finding new sources of energy outside of those.

Since when is it the Governments job to find alternative fuels? Here's a little quiz.

Henry Ford worked for which government agency when he discovered "mass production assembly lines?"

Alexander Graham Bell worked for which government agency when he discovered the telephone?

Thomas Edison worked for which government agency when he discovered the light bulb?

Bill Gates worked for which government agency when his company launched Windows, the operating system that lead to the world wide explosion of computer use?

Umm? You see, this points out that liberals on the left continue to think that government is the fix to all problems. And that is simply utter BS. If an alternative fuel comes into play that will work in cars, then it will be some inventor and or car company that discovers that, and not ANYONE in the US government.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: SATX
Posted 2005-08-26 06:15:35 and read 2755 times.

"Since when is it the Governments job to find alternative fuels? Here's a little quiz."

Since when is it the government's job to give away our tax money to oil companies already making record profits?

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 42):
Amazing. Totally amazing. Are you liberals so programmed to go into attack mode as soon as you see my name or anyone who is conservative?

I guess they just couldn't find a nice way to say 'WTF?' when they read your message made with 66% USDA Grade-A BS.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: GuitrThree
Posted 2005-08-26 06:28:20 and read 2751 times.

Quoting SATX (Reply 43):
I guess they just couldn't find a nice way to say 'WTF?' when they read your message made with 66% USDA Grade-A BS.

Let me remind you, once again, read slowly now, I stated three reasons in reply #6, which, I repeat, were in no particular order: (1) No more drilling in the US/off its coast allowed, (2) Refineries, and their 60+ blends, and (3), China's big increase in demand.

So, if you think my message was made with 66% USDA Grade-A BS, then you must be saying:

(1) Liberals would support more drilling. Ahh, yea.
(2) Changing the number of different types of gas blends from 60+ to 3 is BS, and makes no sense.
(3) China isn't importing more and more every day, so they have no factor in price increases of late.

BS you say? Well, to each their own I guess. You keep thinking it's Bush's fault.

Oh, by the way, as I was driving on I-65 just south of Nashville today, can anyone guess what I saw broken down on the side of the road??

Ahhh.. come one guy's, this ones easy! Even Superfly can get this one!


Yep.. you guessed it, a Toyota Primus!!! Yes!!! The very Hybrid that just stops running whenever it feels the need!!! Right there, on the side of the road! Guess that guy saved a lot of gas walking to the nearest exit!!!

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: MrChips
Posted 2005-08-26 06:47:33 and read 2737 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 42):
Are you liberals so programmed to go into attack mode as soon as you see my name or anyone who is conservative?

Put the blue spray paint down before you label us all.

I'm just as much of a conservative as any of you are, but I don't go around spouting off that every problem on this green Earth is the cause of the liberals.

This isn't a problem that just one ideology can solve...everyone needs to find a compromise to reduce wasteful consumption and promote exploration - I think both sides in the US agree that dependency on foreign oil is a threat to the security of the world.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: Aloha73G
Posted 2005-08-26 06:49:26 and read 2733 times.

After September 1, Hawai'i's high(er?) prices/shortages will be the result of the 1st gasoline price cap in the world.....we can thank our idiotic state legislature for this one.

Aloha!

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: B744F
Posted 2005-08-26 07:10:48 and read 2724 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 44):
(1) Liberals would support more drilling. Ahh, yea.

More drilling would do nothing for prices in the short or long run because they do not have the same effect that oil giants like OPEC have

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 44):
(2) Changing the number of different types of gas blends from 60+ to 3 is BS, and makes no sense.

I think this is ridiculous but this is a result of the federal legislation looking the other way at the evironmental issue causing the states themselves to all take different stances.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 44):
(3) China isn't importing more and more every day, so they have no factor in price increases of late.

China doesn't have control of OPEC like America does. China is a major problem, yes, but you can't keep pointing the finger like a child, you should take responsbility and take action

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 44):
Yep.. you guessed it, a Toyota Primus!!! Yes!!! The very Hybrid that just stops running whenever it feels the need!!! Right there, on the side of the road! Guess that guy saved a lot of gas walking to the nearest exit!!!

Enjoying the suffering of others, I would expect nothing less from a Conservative.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: GuitrThree
Posted 2005-08-26 07:15:33 and read 2724 times.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 45):
This isn't a problem that just one ideology can solve...everyone needs to find a compromise to reduce wasteful consumption and promote exploration - I think both sides in the US agree that dependency on foreign oil is a threat to the security of the world.

Promote exploration? Yes, this is a liberal blocking issues. Let me tell you the 5 words that Liberals use whenever the talk of exploration here in the states is brought up.

1) No
2) No
3) No
4) No
5) No

And to further this discussion, if you believe that the US dependency on oil is a threat to the security of the world, well then, China better look out, because soon they will be using more than us. Again, however, right now, this day, there are no alternative sources. So, the only way we will reduce our dependency on foreign oil is to use our own, and drill off shore and in Alaska, which, let me remind you, what the left says to that:

1) No
2) No
3) No
4) No
5) No

I also am in complete amazement that we yell and scream conserve, conserve, conserve.
Look just some of the things we are doing today to conserve:

LED and fluorescent lights used extensively now, and growing more and more every day
Flat screen technologies, in computers and TV's saves a ton
Energy efficient homes, AC/heaters, programmable thermostats
New stores, such as Wal*Marts skylights and other chains that use timers to cut energy use
Fourstroke technology in boats and PWC's

The list goes on and on and on. We are conserving more and more each day, in many ways we never think about. Its just simple fact that some people in this country hate SUV's, always will hate SUV's and continue to push that lie that they are destroying the planet single handedly.
Heres yet another, case-in-point. Lets go back to Energy efficient homes. Today, there is a company that is installing windows here in the Nashville area that guarantees that your Heat/AC bills will drop by 49% by installing their windows. You heard right, 49%! Now, my question is, where are all the environmentalists?? If you can save electric/gas/oil consumption by 49% by installing new windows, why haven't we heard for calls of banning old windows? Why hasn't there been a call for mandatory installation of these new windows??? Why? Because, again, that small but vocal minority of "whackos" that think SUV's suck the earth dry of its resources while polluting the air and killing everyone could care less about windows.

You see, it's all about the big picture. We are conserving where we can and its practical. You can bet, when the automakers sell an SUV that can haul a bunch of stuff or a boat, yet do it without gas they will sell like nothing else ever has. Until then, well, I guess go buy some new windows.

[Edited 2005-08-26 07:27:25]

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: GuitrThree
Posted 2005-08-26 07:25:12 and read 2714 times.

Quoting B744F (Reply 47):
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 44):
(3) China isn't importing more and more every day, so they have no factor in price increases of late.

China doesn't have control of OPEC like America does. China is a major problem, yes, but you can't keep pointing the finger like a child, you should take responsbility and take action

I am not finger pointing at China!!!! Why in the hell can't anyone see that?? If you can't drill more in your own country, and you have a huge big competitor also buying from the same place, prices will go up, worldwide. We still use more than China, I know that. But we both have a right to buy it in the open market, and we both are in record numbers. The question was asked, "What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?" And I simply answered a big part is the increased demand from China.

Take responsibility and take action??? HOW????? We can't explore. We can't drill. We can't pump. We can't Bomb em for their oil. We can't do anything except cut back. That's the only answer. Cut back??? China comes into play, and we need to cut back????

Maybe if we stop driving our SUV's, more crickets will live, and we all know you don't want that...

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: JeepBoy
Posted 2005-08-26 07:31:34 and read 2708 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 48):
LED and fluorescent lights used extensively now, and growing more and more every day
Flat screen technologies, in computers and TV's saves a ton
Energy efficient homes, AC/heaters, programmable thermostats
New stores, such as Wal*Marts skylights and other chains that use timers to cut energy use

What has this got to do with oil conservation?

ANWR may have quite a few barrels of oil up there but in the scheme of things is like a drop in the USA's yearly consumption. Offshore? Sure, but you better be prepared to pay even more for oil as the extraction costs for offshore are sky high.

Oil depletion is the problem, we are not discovering any near as many new reserves as we are depleting them. That is a well known fact and we have probably reached peak production now.

Most of the earth has been picked over for mega fields and what is left to find will be in difficult places like deep water or ice. The cost of extraction in these fields will probably be prohibitive.

Look up peak oil and you'll see that squabbling over who's at fault for the western worlds addiction to oil and you'll see it has nothing to do with Liberals or Democrats..

Enjoy the oil now while its still fairly cheap.

jb

clowns=fatwa

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: GuitrThree
Posted 2005-08-26 07:45:54 and read 2706 times.

Quoting JeepBoy (Reply 50):
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 48):
LED and fluorescent lights used extensively now, and growing more and more every day
Flat screen technologies, in computers and TV's saves a ton
Energy efficient homes, AC/heaters, programmable thermostats
New stores, such as Wal*Marts skylights and other chains that use timers to cut energy use

What has this got to do with oil conservation?

A lot. It shows how much we will use an item when it is proven that performs the same and/or better than what it replaces. LED lights are the best example. Not only do they save a lot on electricity use, but they last a lot longer, tens of thousands of hours longer, for not much more money than a regular light. Thats why you see them on so many trailers today, not just the new ones, because they last so long they have much less chance of burning out, and added benefit to energy savings. LED's have been around for years, but they didn't take off until recently when the production costs were finally dropped to an affordable level.
So, when the car companies start producing a car that can match the speeds of most cars today, do it in a reliable way, and save gas or not use it at all, we will jump all over it.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: MrChips
Posted 2005-08-26 08:10:16 and read 2699 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 44):
Yep.. you guessed it, a Toyota Primus!!! Yes!!! The very Hybrid that just stops running whenever it feels the need!!! Right there, on the side of the road! Guess that guy saved a lot of gas walking to the nearest exit!!!

Well, Ford Explorers will do the same thing too if you run them out of gas. You can't blame the car for operator stupidity.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 51):
So, when the car companies start producing a car that can match the speeds of most cars today, do it in a reliable way, and save gas or not use it at all, we will jump all over it.

There's never been any incentive to do that, until now. Consumers up until now have not demanded the automakers to make an efficient yet practical car. If consumers don't want it, then why build it?

I'm surprised you haven't grasped that yet - the egg indeed comes before the chicken.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: NUair
Posted 2005-08-26 14:50:40 and read 2684 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 48):
China better look out, because soon they will be using more than us

China isn't giving in that easy...

China readying new taxes on gas guzzlers

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/08/25/business/yuan.php

"HONG KONG Alarmed by high world oil prices and sporadic shortages of gasoline and diesel in big Chinese cities this summer, China's leaders are drafting plans to impose steep taxes on cars and sport utility vehicles with large, gas-guzzling engines."

The taxes will add as much as 27 percent to the price of vehicles with large engines, notably sports cars and large sport utility vehicles, auto industry officials and people advising the government on the plan said. At the same time, taxes may be cut slightly for models with the smallest, most efficient engines, although the details are still under discussion, they said,"

"The taxes follow China's adoption on July 1 of fuel-economy standards that are more stringent than those in force in the United States. The Bush administration announced plans on Tuesday for phasing in tougher fuel-economy rules with the 2008 through the 2011 automobile model years, but the Chinese government has already imposed even stiffer standards to take effect in 2008 and 2009"

So it looks like China is going to do something about it...

If you can't blame refining capacity and China is taking steps to reduce consumption and you can't do anything about the amount of product available to the world then I think you might have to start pointing the finger at yourself and think about demand.

If everyone in the US switched to a 60mpg hybrid engine our oil consumption would be cut by 2/3rds and we would actually be self suficient in crude production. The technology is already available, a tax incentive or break would make it economically viable so why not just do it?

Imagine if we put a 27-30% tax on all SUV's in the US and put that tax money straight in to university grants to develop new hybrid engine technology that could be passed on to GM and Ford so they could be competitive with Toyota and Honda!


I could care less if people want to drive SUV's but the SUV should at least be getting 60mpg. And I bet American engineers are up for the challenge, just give them some funding.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: GuitrThree
Posted 2005-08-26 15:30:42 and read 2676 times.

Quoting NUair (Reply 53):
Imagine if we put a 27-30% tax on all SUV's in the US and put that tax money straight in to university grants to develop new hybrid engine technology that could be passed on to GM and Ford so they could be competitive with Toyota and Honda!

Let me get this straight. You are saying, that TAXING the American Public is the right way to solve the problem. AHHH... how can I scream any louder? This is Liberalism at its best!!!

Taxing the American Public? Really? You really are saying, Tax the American public, so schools can invent a great new technology and give it to privately owned companies, so they can develop something before another company and profit from them. You really are suggesting that? Thats like saying we are going to add a 27-30% on all new Computers and give the money to MIT and when their students come up with great new languages, they have to give it to Microsoft so they can develop an operating system that runs as smoothly as Mac O.S. Again, that's what you are saying???



Quoting NUair (Reply 53):
If everyone in the US switched to a 60mpg hybrid engine our oil consumption would be cut by 2/3rds and we would actually be self sufficient in crude production. The technology is already available, a tax incentive or break would make it economically viable so why not just do it?

Impossible. This solution, is totally out of the realm of any chance of being realistic. First, there is no where close to the supply needed to even put 5% of the is country in a Hybrid today. Second, and more importantly, the financial aspect of destroying millions of cars, a lot of which people owe thousands of dollars on, would cripple this economy hundreds of times over problems of high gas cost is creating now. What your basically saying is buy a Hybrid to save a few dollars on gas a week, but that $30K loan you have on your SUV, well, you're out of luck. Crush the SUV and still make payments. And, again, for the 1000th time, please, name me a Hybrid that can pull a boat, or and RV, or more importantly, those that work out of them, that can pull a trailer full of mowers, or construction supplies, or any of the vans that are used by plumbers, electricians, and the like. I suppose you feel that taxing these people, usually small business men, 27-30% more to, again, fund GM and Ford research, is the way to go. Listen. I can't say it any more plainly. It's NOT the governments job to invent things. It's NOT the governments job to get involved in the invention of things. It's up to GM and FORD to produce their own engineers and researchers to develop their own products. If GM and Ford see that the high price of gas is going to "fuel" the sales of a new type of vehicle, trust me, they will find a way to "suddenly" find the new technology. But until now, the price of Gas didn't warrant such demand and now it is becoming an option. I've paid plenty of dollars out to GM, Ford, and Chrylser in my years in buying vehicles, and I really don't want my Taxes now going towards making them and their stock holders rich.

Why do I feel that the entire Airliners.Net crowd need to spend one semester in Economics????

Why??

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2005-08-26 15:36:38 and read 2672 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 42):
Amazing. Totally amazing. Are you liberals so programmed to go into attack mode as soon as you see my name or anyone who is conservative?

Us in attack mode? When you just blamed the whole energy crunch on "liberals"? I think you had best look in the mirror. You're the programmed one-the typicall un-thinking conservative, who, instaed of really looking at a problem, automatically blames "the liberals" for everything! It's such a knee-jerk reaction anymore with guys like you that you don't even realize it.

Again, the energy problem isn't a liberal one; it isn't a conservative one. It wasn't cause by Bush or Clinton, imho. It's being caused by a nation approaching 2 billion people who is finally catching up to the rest of the world, and now has an insatiable demand for fuel, just as the U.S. has an insatiable demand for it. And since production isn't going to increase greatly, something has to give, and that something is rising prices.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 42):
I stated three reasons in reply #6, which, I repeat, were in no particular order: (1) No more drilling in the US/off its coast allowed, (2) Refineries, and their 60+ blends, and (3), China's big increase in demand.

That's not what you said, Pat Robertson. You put in there it was the FAULT OF LIBERALS! Don't try to deny that now.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 42):
Since when is it the Governments job to find alternative fuels?

Maybe it goes under "Preserve, protect and defend". If we can find alternatives, and wean ourselves off of being dependent on other nations, it makes the U.S. more stable and more secure, GuitrThree. To me, it is the government's job, in conjunction with the private sector, to find alternatives. It doesn't fall strictly under the purview of one or the other.

But to me, energy survival is, in one sense, a national security issue, so it does fall under government purview.

Again, your constant statement on liberals is just a sign of buying blindly an ideology that doesn't have any answers itself. It's lame, it's dumb, and what you said was, basically, a falsehood.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: NUair
Posted 2005-08-26 15:56:01 and read 2667 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 54):
Let me get this straight. You are saying, that TAXING the American Public is the right way to solve the problem. AHHH... how can I scream any louder? This is Liberalism at its best!!!

Taxing the American Public? Really? You really are saying, Tax the American public, so schools can invent a great new technology and give it to privately owned companies, so they can develop something before another company and profit from them. You really are suggesting that? Thats like saying we are going to add a 27-30% on all new Computers and give the money to MIT and when their students come up with great new languages, they have to give it to Microsoft so they can develop an operating system that runs as smoothly as Mac O.S. Again, that's what you are saying???

Sounds about right. That's pretty much how it works now. My dad is a bio chemistry researcher at the University of Wisconsin and develops new patents all the time, funded through Federal grants. Once the patents are developed they turn around and sell it to private companys (with a 10% cut) who then employ people to produce, sell and distribute the product helping create new jobs. Europe and Asia do the exact same thing. Its kind of a standard gov't subsidation to protect local industry while helping the educational system. I can't think of one country where that doesn't happen...

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 54):
Impossible. This solution, is totally out of the realm of any chance of being realistic. First, there is no where close to the supply needed to even put 5% of the is country in a Hybrid today. Second, and more importantly, the financial aspect of destroying millions of cars, a lot of which people owe thousands of dollars on, would cripple this economy hundreds of times over problems of high gas cost is creating now. What your basically saying is buy a Hybrid to save a few dollars on gas a week, but that $30K loan you have on your SUV, well, you're out of luck. Crush the SUV and still make payments. And, again, for the 1000th time, please, name me a Hybrid that can pull a boat, or and RV, or more importantly, those that work out of them, that can pull a trailer full of mowers, or construction supplies, or any of the vans that are used by plumbers, electricians, and the like. I suppose you feel that taxing these people, usually small business men, 27-30% more to, again, fund GM and Ford research, is the way to go. Listen. I can't say it any more plainly. It's NOT the governments job to invent things. It's NOT the governments job to get involved in the invention of things. It's up to GM and FORD to produce their own engineers and researchers to develop their own products. If GM and Ford see that the high price of gas is going to "fuel" the sales of a new type of vehicle, trust me, they will find a way to "suddenly" find the new technology. But until now, the price of Gas didn't warrant such demand and now it is becoming an option. I've paid plenty of dollars out to GM, Ford, and Chrylser in my years in buying vehicles, and I really don't want my Taxes now going towards making them and their stock holders rich.

Calm down man.

First of all Ford and GM are both on the brink of bankruptcy so if the Japanese gov't is paying for university research that is then passed on to Toyota and Honda we need to do the same here before GM and Ford really do go under. Maybe it doesn't matter in your neck of the woods but where I'm from we have GM and Ford parts suppliers in almost every town. That's a lot of jobs that will go bye bye.

I'm not saying that we would do it tomorrow. I was thinking more on the lines of a 10-15 year timeline. I think we should give Detroit the time to implement new technologies that could possibly provide us with an SUV that gets 60mpg or maybe even expand hydrogen so we can all drive non-polluting Hummer's like Governor Arnold S. who has 2. And yes they can still tow your boat.

As far as a few dollars a week lets look at the economics of that statement...

20mpg SUV / 60mpg Prius
Miles driven per day 50 / 50
days of driving 6 / 6
Miles per week 300 / 300
Car fuel consumption (mpg) 20 / 60
Gallons consumed per week 15 / 5
Price for a gallon of gasoline $2.75 / $2.75
Total spending on gasoline $41.25 / $13.75
Weeks in the year 52 / 52
Total cost of gasoline $2,145.00 / $715.00


Savings per week $27.50
Savings per year $1,430.00

(Sorry about the format, Excel doesn't transfer well into these posts)

Now the topic of this forum is high gasoline prices not the price of a car or insurance or anything else.

My only arguement is that to reduce the price of gasoline we need to reduce the demand (supply / demand I'm sure you remember that from economics?) since supply is on a continual decline as oil is a non-renewable resource it makes sense to reduce demand.

I'm just saying that increasing fuel efficiency is one viable way of doing it.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 54):
Why do I feel that the entire Airliners.Net crowd need to spend one semester in Economics????

At least I was paying attention in class.

[Edited 2005-08-26 15:59:48]

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: GuitrThree
Posted 2005-08-26 16:13:01 and read 2656 times.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 55):
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 42):
I stated three reasons in reply #6, which, I repeat, were in no particular order: (1) No more drilling in the US/off its coast allowed, (2) Refineries, and their 60+ blends, and (3), China's big increase in demand.

That's not what you said, Pat Robertson. You put in there it was the FAULT OF LIBERALS! Don't try to deny that now.

I'm not denying that. I was making it a shorter version, my post was already long enough. Yes, I blame liberals for #1 and #2, but the point of that statement was NOT to point at #1 and 2, but to point out that #3 was China's increased demand, something that ISN'T a liberal problem at all.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 55):
Again, your constant statement on liberals is just a sign of buying blindly an ideology that doesn't have any answers itself. It's lame, it's dumb, and what you said was, basically, a falsehood.

No, it's not. And once again, a lot of people here aren't paying attention in class. Go re-read the thread again if it helps. The question was asked "What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?" I answered that. You might not like those answers, but thats why. Liberal bashing or not, the reason why gas prices are climbing is the decreasing supply and increasing demand. We have been blocked by the left from drilling our own, and there is nothing we can do about China. That, my friend, is NOT a falsehood. That is fact.

Now, you and others seem to be answering the question of "What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices" with the answer to "What can we do to lower gas prices." That question was NEVER asked.

So some of the answers we got to "What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices" are:

-Tax More
-It's National Security so the Government must invent something
-It's Bush's New Energy Plan
-Spending on Amtrak is down


- And this one:

So we need more cheap crude...

Well we blew up Iraq
we are botching relations with Venezuela
we are allowing Chevron to buy Unocal so they can keep on restricting production and keep prices and margins high
we concentrate on Alaska crude which is only enough to supply 33% of the US market for one year and it would be tapped

So we need to decrease demand

well we are buying SUV's
we are not increasing fuel efficiency standards until 2008
we are cutting back on public transportation funding



Again, if you go read the question, and look at my answers they are far from a FALSEHOOD. It's simple Supply and Demand. Thats it. Well, there is some "speculation" thrown in there that adds a few cents here and there, but basically, we can't drill any more and our supply has new big competitors. Like it or not, that's the answer to the question of this thread. What we do in the future has nothing to do with the price of gas today. Not Bush's energy plan, not Hybrids, not Amtrak, not National Security, not government research for privately owned companies, not anything. Read again Falcon, The price of gas today is the result of supply and demand. Now I'm off to work, probably going to burn 300 miles of fuel in the next few hours... there goes more of the supply...

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2005-08-26 16:21:12 and read 2653 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 57):
Yes, I blame liberals for #1 and #2

And that, as far as most people with any common sense, removes you as a serious player in this discussion. You're looking for fault where it doesn't lie-it lies with the rapid increase of Asia, mostly China, in the consumption of oil. #1 and #1 would amout to a molehill no matter how you slice it, dude.

It isn't the fault of "liberals". Amazing how you let one side slide on EVERYTHING, and lay the blame for everything at hte feet of others. It is the fault of the fact that a nation like ours, which has something like 5% of the worlds population, cannot expect to keep using 40% of the world's oil supply-not when almost a thrid of the worlds' population is located in the fastest-growing industrial nation in the world. THAT'S where the "fault" lies.

The fault also lies with the American habit of not wanting to conserve or give up anything. We build bigger and bigger gas guzzlers, even in the face of much higher fuel prices; and then we demand to pay nothing for the gas we use, and get pissed when gas goes to $2.50 a gallon at the pump. Simply because we're the U.S. doesn't mean we have the God-given right to use up the worlds resources. Well, now, the pendulum is swinging, and those nations like China and India, who have huge populations, are wanting more and more of the pie, and it's going to come out of our slice, GuitrThree.

Again, it isn't a liberal problem-it's an AMERICAN problem.

Again, I think you have zero credibility on this issue. You aren't looking for reasons, you look for scapegoats. I told you the reason-we can't keep taking the lions' share of the world's resources for ourselves, when we only make up 5% of the population of this planet. Others are wanting a place at the table, and it is we who must adjust to that, not visa-versa.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: NUair
Posted 2005-08-26 16:51:02 and read 2650 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 57):
Liberal bashing or not, the reason why gas prices are climbing is the decreasing supply and increasing demand.

So you agree with this post that gives reasons for decreasing supply and increasing demand?

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 57):
So we need more cheap crude...

Well we blew up Iraq
we are botching relations with Venezuela
we are allowing Chevron to buy Unocal so they can keep on restricting production and keep prices and margins high
we concentrate on Alaska crude which is only enough to supply 33% of the US market for one year and it would be tapped

So we need to decrease demand

well we are buying SUV's
we are not increasing fuel efficiency standards until 2008
we are cutting back on public transportation funding

Becasue that seems to address the issues of higher demand and lower supply.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 57):
Now, you and others seem to be answering the question of "What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices" with the answer to "What can we do to lower gas prices."

Someone presents a question we give an answer and now we are getting into possible solutions. That doesn't seem off topic at all.

If you think that 20mpg SUV's are the best we can do, that's great, that's your solution. But some of us think we can do a little better.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: B744F
Posted 2005-08-26 22:38:05 and read 2624 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 54):
Let me get this straight. You are saying, that TAXING the American Public is the right way to solve the problem. AHHH... how can I scream any louder? This is Liberalism at its best!!!

That's funny, the biggest tax increase in history was signed by the Reagan administration.

Taxing the people who use the most gas is the only logical choice to conservation. You are hurting those with enough money to go out and spend 50k on a new SUV. If they need it for work, they have tax deductions already. But this is to target the yuppies who do not need an SUV for anything but pleasure.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 54):
Taxing the American Public? Really? You really are saying, Tax the American public, so schools can invent a great new technology and give it to privately owned companies, so they can develop something before another company and profit from them. You really are suggesting that? Thats like saying we are going to add a 27-30% on all new Computers and give the money to MIT and when their students come up with great new languages, they have to give it to Microsoft so they can develop an operating system that runs as smoothly as Mac O.S. Again, that's what you are saying???

Apples and oranges, if a new OS was needed to save the planet from our incompetence, then maybe that comparison would be valid.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 54):
, please, name me a Hybrid that can pull a boat, or and RV, or more importantly, those that work out of them, that can pull a trailer full of mowers, or construction supplies, or any of the vans that are used by plumbers, electricians, and the like.

That's the problem, there isn't enough research by companies to take the chance and invest in finding a powerful yet good MPG SUV.

And you are pretending like the most SUV sales is businesses when not only is that completely false, a business can take deductions away to help with the cost, thus nullifying your big complaints.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 54):
I suppose you feel that taxing these people, usually small business men,

"usually"

You should be a politician with your grasp of emotional comments that have no valid backing. Taxing people who use SUVs for non-business reasons, and getting rid of the tax loophole allowing anyone to buy an SUV to get a deduction even if they really don't use it for work.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 54):
It's NOT the governments job to invent things. It's NOT the governments job to get involved in the invention of things. It's up to GM and FORD to produce their own engineers and researchers to develop their own products. If GM and Ford see that the high price of gas is going to "fuel" the sales of a new type of vehicle, trust me, they will find a way to "suddenly" find the new technology. But until now, the price of Gas didn't warrant such demand and now it is becoming an option. I've paid plenty of dollars out to GM, Ford, and Chrylser in my years in buying vehicles, and I really don't want my Taxes now going towards making them and their stock holders rich.

Yes it is the governments job because when it comes down to something extremely important, if there isn't a good chance of large profits appearing very quickly, you would be hard pressed to find a company willing to pay for the research. Imagine cancer research without government assistance.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 54):
Why do I feel that the entire Airliners.Net crowd need to spend one semester in Economics????

pot=kettle

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: GuitrThree
Posted 2005-08-27 01:36:29 and read 2609 times.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 58):
The fault also lies with the American habit of not wanting to conserve or give up anything. We build bigger and bigger gas guzzlers, even in the face of much higher fuel prices; and then we demand to pay nothing for the gas we use, and get pissed when gas goes to $2.50 a gallon at the pump. Simply because we're the U.S. doesn't mean we have the God-given right to use up the worlds resources. Well, now, the pendulum is swinging, and those nations like China and India, who have huge populations, are wanting more and more of the pie, and it's going to come out of our slice, GuitrThree.

Seems to me, what we don't want to give up is importing oil. We won't have worry about getting less of the "imported pie" if we bake our own. Again, drilling here. Again, something that the liberal side blocks every time... you keep saying I'm not grasping things, but you won't admit that adding more oil by drilling here will help the us and the world in its oil supplies. You apparently believe that its ok to destroy the earth else where, but not here, because our land, the land of the US, is better than the rest and it can't be destroyed by oil wells. That is exactly what you are saying.

Quoting B744F (Reply 60):
Yes it is the governments job because when it comes down to something extremely important, if there isn't a good chance of large profits appearing very quickly, you would be hard pressed to find a company willing to pay for the research. Imagine cancer research without government assistance.

NO it is not. It is NOT the governments job to invent things! And are you saying that if GM, Ford, Toyota, or whoever, came out within the next year and found an engine design that either ends fuel use or substantially reduced it, while maintaining todays performance, the US public wouldn't buy them up? You must be. The first automaker that comes up with this vehicle wins. And I mean wins. Why not take that risk?
By saying that a company won't be willing to pay for research if they don't get quick rewards and thus making the government do it simply means that they don't think it can be made, and if it can't, why should us taxpayers pay for years and years of research when the item can't be made in a reasonable amount of time? Again, letting the Government solve todays society is Liberalism 101.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: B744F
Posted 2005-08-27 02:45:26 and read 2595 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 61):
It is NOT the governments job to invent things!

No but it is the governments job to protect the health and welfare of its citizens, and funding research for making our planet better is what the government needs to do, because not enough people are doing it already.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 61):
Why not take that risk?

Because companies are the last people to go kicking and screaming towards change, without government internvention we would not have seat belts

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 61):
simply means that they don't think it can be made

No it means it cannot be made in a reasonable amount of time without government funding

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 61):
Again, letting the Government solve todays society is Liberalism 101.

And the government is involved in solving many of todays problems, ever heard of something called the Federal Reserve?

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2005-08-27 05:47:06 and read 2571 times.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 61):
Seems to me, what we don't want to give up is importing oil. We won't have worry about getting less of the "imported pie" if we bake our own.

Wrong. We don't have enough to bake our own, unless you want to put an off-shore drilling platform off every city on a coast, and even then, it's problematical the we'd find enough oil.

What is needed is serious R&D into alternative fuels, resuable fules-and anything that weans us off big oil. That's just common sense. Simply building more things for oil-an non-resuable resource, is just a waste ove the long haul.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: GuitrThree
Posted 2005-08-27 05:57:02 and read 2568 times.

Quoting B744F (Reply 62):
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 61):
Why not take that risk?

Because companies are the last people to go kicking and screaming towards change, without government internvention we would not have seat belts

OH, I seriously doubt that. Use the seat belt example? Ok. Sure.. look at cars today. Front airbags are standard. Thats a good thing, and the US laws make it a must have item on every new car built. Using your logic, all makers would stop right there. They hate change, and why should they do more? But they don't stop there, now do they? Look at how many automakers are now advertising SIDE airbags. Yes, SIDE airbags that aren't by law required at all. But so many high end and even low end cars like Hyundai even have them. Why? Because customers like safety and have asked for such things, which goes back to what I said. When customers get fed up with the high price of gas, they will demand other engines and it WON'T be the US government that invents it.
I was watching the Steelers-Skins game tonight on my 65" HD tonight. Yes, think of all the oil it took to produce that thing.. that's a lot of plastic... but thats another subject. I must have seen 5 or so GM commercials, they were mainly geared towards the end of the employee sale, but in every one they either mentioned or showed a Hydrogen car. Why??? Maybe their customers are now asking for them??? Maybe??? I bet they are. And I bet now that there is sufficient demand, you will see R&D not only kicked into high gear but you will see a lot more of this type of advertisement.

See??? Just what I've been saying here for two days... It's the CAR makers job to MAKE new engines. And when there is sufficient demand, you will see them. Until then, and that's a short then, you won't.

Topic: RE: What's The Real Reason Behind High Gas Prices?
Username: Theredbaron
Posted 2005-08-27 08:14:53 and read 2577 times.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 7):
How about dumbasses who like being the Saudi's bitches instead of finding an alternative?

 thumbsup 
Man its good to see you back...!

Quoting NUair (Reply 18):
Why would we build more refineries when the ones we have now are only running at 94%?

Why would we build more refineries when we can import final products for cheaper than it costs to produce domestically? In which case building more refineries in the US would increase final costs.

Refining capacity has nothing to do with it! Product is available and as far as I know no shortages have been reported in the US since the late 70's.

As was pointed out the cost of refinery input aka crude is increasing rapidly. How does increasing refining capacity help with that?

So we need more cheap crude...

Well we blew up Iraq
we are botching relations with Venezuela
we are allowing Chevron to buy Unocal so they can keep on restricting production and keep prices and margins high
we concentrate on Alaska crude which is only enough to supply 33% of the US market for one year and it would be tapped

So we need to decrease demand

well we are buying SUV's
we are not increasing fuel efficiency standards until 2008
we are cutting back on public transportation funding


 

I have trouble understanding why gas is only $3 per gallon.

Yeah at 3 a gallon you still have your gas CHEAP

Quoting B744F (Reply 38):
Oh and if you want to know the real reasons why gas prices are so high, take a look at the oil companies profits. Theres your answer.

People can blame the left and the right all they want, but the bottom line is, these corporations have realized they can work with the powerful governments like the Saudis to keep prices high while pretending like drilling a few fields in Alaska or off the coast of California will actually do something for world-wide prices.

The right has been in bed with the Saudis and oil companies since WWII ended, the left and center have done little to change this problem, so in the end, it is our fault for not doing anything except acting like little children wanting to buy more toy cars.

Dubyas family is part of the Carlyle Group, basically his family and Neo cons are th e ones to blame...

Now I think making big changes in transportation in the US will be necesary in the next 25 years if they are to survive or worse start a global wat for Oil... Iraq is just the beginning.

It seems to me that Mr. Roboto (Al Gore) was right after all in 1993 when he tried to ppush CAFE stardards very high and the lobyists and auto makers shot its program down...oh well too late...

For example in Mexico in 1984 deu to a huge economic crisis the Government OUTLAWED new cars with more than 6 cilinders, so Ford, Chrysler, GM withdraw large cars from the market, eventually in 1991 they came back, but on those years the public, discovered and learned that the 4 cilinder small cars were better for the city and nowadays we have more than 30 different subcompacts and 5 or six minicars and those are the biggest sellers, all this in an OIL PRODUCING country that has a higher price of gas than the US !!!

In Europe you can but like 10 diferent cars with 1.2 liter diesel engines that can give you 55 to 70 Mpg, heck even the VW beetle TDI has very good power and can give you up to 50 miles a galon of Diesel...

But keep buying gas for your Big SUV and youll only make the oil companies richer, dont complain, you are still buying cheap gas by world standards..

Best regards TRB


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/