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Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq  
User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4275 posts, RR: 52
Posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2685 times:

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Holy cow, vote is tonight


"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2677 times:

Brilliant political move by the GOP leadership.

Democrats will now have to be on the record stating their position either FOR or AGAINST pulling out troops. This is a vote meant solely to take the issue away from the democrats in the 2006 election. If they vote FOR they can't then criticize the White House during the 2006 election cycle lest the flip flop label come out again.

If they vote against it, the GOP will argue that the representatives are soft on terrorism and wanted to cut and run.

I'd love to know whose idea this was because it is brilliant. Best thing a democratic congressman can do is get on a plane to anywhere right now so that they can honestly say that they were out of town and didn't get to vote.


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6575 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2671 times:
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Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
I'd love to know whose idea this was because it is brilliant.

Im thinking Karl Rove. He is an genius evil like that.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineDan-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2665 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
Brilliant political move by the GOP leadership.

And quite apropos. A war started for political gain ('02 midterm and '04 presidential election), now the GOP is milking it for another round of elections. Good for them.

Any WMD found yet? Any links to Al-Qaeda? No? Never mind. Who cares what the half of this country and the entire rest of the world perceive the US invasion of Iraq. 2000 kids and $300 Billion? De nada! This is fuckin' politics, Texas-style.

M-fuckers.


User currently offlineDTWorBust From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2665 times:

Interesting though, Delay is not whipping right now b/c he's out on his keister - and there is a rumor on the hill that he is unofficially whipping for the "other side" so that they "need" him back as majority leader when he's done with his indictment. The dems won a budget bill last night and there is speculation that that is why...

(This is all hill gossip from people I know over there so take it with a grain of salt - just wonder if there might be a connection...same time that Murtha came out against the war - lots of momentum shifting)



"There's no traffic jam on the extra mile." - My Mom
User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2657 times:

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 3):
And quite apropos. A war started for political gain ('02 midterm and '04 presidential election), now the GOP is milking it for another round of elections. Good for them.

 checkmark 

The GOP have nothing to be proud of, so they answer for their actions by simply attacking those on the other side? Pure American 100% Grade-A Bullshit, plain and simple.



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21554 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2650 times:

Are abstentions allowed on stuff like this?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDTWorBust From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2648 times:

Interesting - apparently the vote that is up (the Hunter Resolution) is NOT the one proposed by Murtha (D) and is basically intended to put Dems in an uncomfortable position of having rallied behind Murtha and his position yesterday and then vote No on this (as it is not the original proposal).

Chances are most of the American public will not understand the switch-ero and it will be spinned as a classic "supported it before I voted against it" for the Republicans. Sneaky.



"There's no traffic jam on the extra mile." - My Mom
User currently offlineDTWorBust From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2637 times:

The Hunter Resolution is attached to the Murtha piece - so the Dems can't vote for Murtha piece without voting FOR the Hunger Resolution. Classic Washington.


"There's no traffic jam on the extra mile." - My Mom
User currently offlineDTWorBust From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2625 times:

Check out CSpan if you're near a tv - high drama!


"There's no traffic jam on the extra mile." - My Mom
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 2615 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Are abstentions allowed on stuff like this?

Technically yes but it would be political suicide to vote "present" instead of yea or nay. Your opponent would make you out to be a pussy. The best strategy is to head out of town and say that you had a pre-existing commitment and since the vote was scheduled at the last minute, you couldn't be there.


User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4275 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 2610 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 10):
Technically yes but it would be political suicide to vote "present" instead of yea or nay. Your opponent would make you out to be a pussy. The best strategy is to head out of town and say that you had a pre-existing commitment and since the vote was scheduled at the last minute, you couldn't be there.

There have been a couple instances on controversial subjects that passed with a very low amount of actual votes (two years ago there was a vote in the House that passed with something like 22 For and 6 Against, all the rest abstained). The problem is that it can be political suicide if you vote for it, against it, or if you abstain. Your choice of death, I guess...

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21554 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

Quoting DTWorBust (Reply 8):
The Hunter Resolution is attached to the Murtha piece

What does the Hunter Resolution state?

Quoting Pope (Reply 10):
it would be political suicide to vote "present" instead of yea or nay. Your opponent would make you out to be a pussy.

Why can't the democrats just say "we're not going to let you bully us into a bullshit vote between two equally unattractive options" and make the Republicans into the aggressors? It's obvious that the Republicans are trying to back the Democrats into a corner - the Dems don't have to let themselves be screwed over.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
Brilliant political move by the GOP leadership.

Just a pro-forma piece of show, Pope, nothing else. Most Americans don't back the war, and this is a clever way to try to show soemhow that the war is legitimate.

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
This is a vote meant solely to take the issue away from the democrats in the 2006 election. If

If most the nation was behind the war, Pope, I'd agree with you, but if Iraq continues to be a pain in the ass to the Administration, this could backfire terrible. If the pace of deaths among our troops increases-and let's hope it doesn't-than it could be turned around and put as "the GOP were the ones that kept our troops there to be killed." Is that likely, I doubt it, but neither is some big political advantage for the GOP doing this move.

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
If they vote against it, the GOP will argue that the representatives are soft on terrorism and wanted to cut and run

Again, one problem, Pope: most Americans don't believe that Iraq has a legit tie to the war on terror anymore. They see them as separate events. Again, that could backfire on the GOP.


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2576 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Most Americans don't back the war, and this is a clever way to try to show soemhow that the war is legitimate.

Tell me about it. I don't think anyone is more keenly aware of this fact than those serving in Iraq. Many soldiers feel as though it is only they who are making the sacrifices in this war. Look, for all practical purposes, life is put on hold when you go over there. Many of them are glad to do it, because it's the job they signed up for. But you go over there for a year (which is probably your 3rd or 4th time so far) and when you come home, you look around and say, "Hey, I'm over here in the suck, and people back home are going about their lives uninterrupted. I'm sacrificing a lot, and they're not."

-UH60


User currently offlineUsnseallt82 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 4891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2574 times:

Quoting Texan (Thread starter):
Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

All I can say is, I wouldn't hold your breath on any type of 'quick' withdrawl. It would be far more dangerous than helpful and wouldn't pass on the Hill. But, it will be interesting to see what happens.



Crye me a river
User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2574 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Again, one problem, Pope: most Americans don't believe that Iraq has a legit tie to the war on terror anymore. They see them as separate events. Again, that could backfire on the GOP.

I agree with Pope that this is a slick piece of political manuvering, but I think Falcon is closer to the real issue - this is actually a big risk for the Repubs. If the concerns about our involvement in Iraq continues to mount as they have this year, by fall of '06, being portrayed as having created a political game out of the vote will be a very hard to explain for the Republicans.

What's worse is that Iraq is being used in this manner. We deserve an honest debate about what we're doing and where we're going in Iraq. Both sides are guilty for not engaging in one. The Dems throw out the non-starter pull out now (disaster) and Repubs reply with stay the course (disaster). Nowhere is anyone talking about an actual plan to accomplish goals (which themselves aren't even established) and then withdraw.

It all just make me sick, and in the meantime more US men & women die.



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineItsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2768 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2573 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
Brilliant political move by the GOP leadership.

I disagree. Bad move by the GOP. They're in no position to be forcing anyone's hand right now. Their boy has an approval rating in the 30's and continues to fall and most Americans do not support the war. This is a big gamble that will blow up (no pun) in their faces.


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2545 times:

You guys are confusing two issues. One is the politics of the action and one is the substance of the action.

From a political perspective, the move forces the democrats to support a position that they don't. If they then take a position during the 2006 campaign that we should withdraw, the GOP will run all sorts of ads highlighting the flip-flop.

Regardless of what the correct policy choice is, this is a brilliant political move because it reduces the DNC's options. Furthermore I guarantee you that the spin on Sunday by the GOP will be that the House passed a bipartisan resolution supporting the administration's position on the war.


User currently offlineKC135R From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 725 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2542 times:

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 16):
We deserve an honest debate about what we're doing and where we're going in Iraq. Both sides are guilty for not engaging in one. The Dems throw out the non-starter pull out now (disaster) and Repubs reply with stay the course (disaster). Nowhere is anyone talking about an actual plan to accomplish goals (which themselves aren't even established) and then withdraw.

It all just make me sick, and in the meantime more US men & women die.

I agree 110% - could not have possibly said it better myself!

The two choices our so called political leaders keep throwing out are both bad ideas. What we need to do is finish the job in a timely and efficient manner and get the hell out of there! The real question should be - how do we accomplish that?


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2533 times:

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 16):
Both sides are guilty for not engaging in one. The Dems throw out the non-starter pull out now (disaster) and Repubs reply with stay the course (disaster). Nowhere is anyone talking about an actual plan to accomplish goals (which themselves aren't even established) and then withdraw.

Bingo . . . the epitomy of DC politics at it's finest. The Repubs and Dem have both made asses of themselves - like they do everytime they get within a grid square of each other. Typical DC ultra-partisan politics. Our elected leadership has lost sight of it's purpose - to care for this country. Instead, they worry constantly about the next election and the party.

The problem with the DoD from the start has been NO Plan after the initial assault. Yes, yes, I know - it's a fluid environment. That's why the military has Fragmentation Orders . . .known as Frag-Os. Problem is, they amend an original order - and from my perspective - there has been an Original Order for the Rejuvination of Iraq. After doing what the US does best - taking ground in a fast, efficient and devastating manner - there was no plan to put things back together. If there was it certainly escaped me.


User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2518 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 18):
You guys are confusing two issues.

Not at all, I completely understand what the Republican's are attempting. And if it works, I agree, it'll be a political master stroke. I just think that a war weary and concerned population is going to be much more open to a Democratic response that the the Republicans we're playing games with our soldiers' lives, and it will blow up in the Republican's face.



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2492 times:

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 16):
We deserve an honest debate about what we're doing and where we're going in Iraq. Both sides are guilty for not engaging in one. The Dems throw out the non-starter pull out now (disaster) and Repubs reply with stay the course (disaster). Nowhere is anyone talking about an actual plan to accomplish goals (which themselves aren't even established) and then withdraw.

Nice wish, but when's the last time the US Congress had an honest debate about anything? George Washington was right. The rise of factions (political parties) would lead to the destruction of our country.

One need look no further than the US Congress to see how right his statement was.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2477 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 18):
Regardless of what the correct policy choice is, this is a brilliant political move because it reduces the DNC's options.

How do you figure? I think it doesn't limit their options any which way, because a majority of Americans right now, in one form or another, are against this war, Pope, not for it.

If, like I said earlier, the country were still gung-ho for this conflict, then yes, the Dems would be painted in a big corner, but that's not the case. The Dems are seen right now, on this issue, as in line with the country, not the GOP.

It is a dicey move, I think, for the GOP, since they are on the wrong end of public opinion on this one. In fact, many Dems are not for withdrawl from Iraq, like myself, but were either against this war from the beginning, or can't stand the way it's been prosecuted by this administration. In either case, it's the GOP, not the Dems, who are behind the 8-ball on this one.

Quoting Pope (Reply 18):
Furthermore I guarantee you that the spin on Sunday by the GOP will be that the House passed a bipartisan resolution supporting the administration's position on the war.

And not a soul will believe it. Again, the GOP, in my view, is pinning themselves and their political lives on a war fewer and fewer think is worth the price. And trust me, if Iraq continues to flounder next fall, you can bet the Dems will use this vote as political fodder to lable the GOP as warhawks, at a time when the country is tiring of this conflict.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 21):
Quoting Pope (Reply 18):
You guys are confusing two issues.

Not at all, I completely understand what the Republican's are attempting. And if it works, I agree, it'll be a political master stroke. I just think that a war weary and concerned population is going to be much more open to a Democratic response that the the Republicans we're playing games with our soldiers' lives, and it will blow up in the Republican's face.

Agreed.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2466 times:

What happens if the US withdraws from Iraq.Would the UN take its place.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
25 ANCFlyer : Let's hope not . . . . Bang up job they've done in Africa . . . and there's no Oil for Food money in it for them any more . . .[Edited 2005-11-19 04:
26 Post contains links ANCFlyer : Result of the Vote: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/18/congress.iraq.ap/index.html ""The House voted 403-3 to reject a nonbinding resolution c
27 MidnightMike : Well then, we should have seen every Democrat vote for the immediate withdrawl of US troops from Iraq, since things are soooooo bad.
28 Falcon84 : With a vote like that, it does nothing to further any agenda by either Democrat or Republicans. So it wasn't a 'brilliant" move, as Pope suggested. It
29 MidnightMike : Falcon It was show Sen. Reid ordered the Senate into a closed session, it was a show when Rep Murtha spoke of how bad it was in Iraq and that we shou
30 Falcon84 : Again, it will mean nothing in swaying the public that the war is the right thing, Mike. Not in the least. It was a pro-forma vote, nothing more. If
31 Post contains links GuitrThree : I think it was a great move. Political or not, it was meant to shut down all those on the Democratic side, that just 3 years ago were making quote aft
32 Rjpieces : Did anyone watch CSPAN last night? It was honestly very moving. I spent like three hours on a Friday night glued to the TV. Earlier in the evening, I
33 LTBEWR : No one has a exit strategy and really the neo-cons/Bush really don't want one. While the occupation of our forces in Iraq is very messy and could end
34 MidnightMike : I never mentioned the general public, not once. This was something to quiet the internal bickering and the grandstanding of some of the Democrats. No
35 GuitrThree : LTBEW, seriously, are you Michael Moore or George Soros in disguise?
36 J_Hallgren : I thought it was pretty good move by Reps...the Dems essentially said "we want a vote on this"...Reps said: Ok let's vote...now the Dems call vote a p
37 Post contains images Falcon84 : Did you notice the vote? It didn't do anything. Nothing. Not a thing. It didn't accomplish anything, except to try and cover up the crybaby antics by
38 Post contains images UAcosCS : That is the sad part of Aviation. Most of you people are so liberal, and brainwashed. Lets vote for Hillary! She'll do just as good as her husband.
39 Falcon84 : Another well-spoken, well-educated, totally indoctrinated simp if the right. Congratulations. Incredible.
40 Post contains images Mir : It has been said that aviation attracts the more intelligent... -Mir
41 MidnightMike : Falcon The vote put the Democrats in a bind and it went as the Republicans wanted, it put on paper, the Democrats support for the war. It was a polit
42 GuitrThree : So let me get this straight.. So you, Falcon, say it's ok to politicize a war, make statements that hurt the troops, basically ignore all the good in
43 Falcon84 : Wrong. You'll read it like that because YOU support the war. The only thing the vote was about was on an immediate pullout. I do not support the war,
44 Post contains images UAcosCS : Show us how intelligent you are, you haven't proven it to us yet. This is coming from a guy who isn't even legally allowed to buy an alcoholic bevera
45 GuitrThree : AGREE. 100%.. But not one, I repeat, NOT ONE of the Democrats "changed their minds." They refuse to say they changed their mind. They continue to say
46 Falcon84 : Wrong. Congress authorized the President to use military force if it were proven Saddam had WMD. Congress DID NOT authorize to go to war to get rid o
47 Halls120 : I hope you are right. Unfortunately, finding civil, serious discussion on just about any facet of American politics has become much harder since the
48 Captoveur : It is a 2 way street. The Dems play the exact same games sometimes. I guess it is only wrong when the Republicans do it. The pointless political batt
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