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US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree  
User currently offlineDragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3986 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1748 times:

Spain agreed to sell 12 military planes and 8 patrol boat to Venezuela, and the US threatened to block the deal

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americ...1/28/venezuela.spain.ap/index.html

Can someone explain to me why the US is sticking it's nose in this deal? According to the article these are cargo planes and patrol boats! Seems to me the US is trying to stir up trouble.


Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1744 times:

Quoting Dragon-wings (Thread starter):
Can someone explain to me why the US is sticking it's nose in this deal? According to the article these are cargo planes and patrol boats! Seems to me the US is trying to stir up trouble.

First paragraph....

"The State Department repeated reservations about the sale because the planes and boats carry U.S. parts and technology... "


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20647 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1741 times:

Quoting Dragon-wings (Thread starter):
Can someone explain to me why the US is sticking it's nose in this deal?

Did you even read the article you linked? The U.S. has the right to control where technology developed in this country is exported and licensed. It's all just politics aimed at the Castro clone. Big deal.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3986 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1729 times:

I did, but these are just cargo and patrol stuff. I can understand if it was tanks or a missle or something like that.


Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29800 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1729 times:

And I would remind you that Franco wanna-be Chavez has allready threatened to sell US military technology he already has to China and Cuba.

Don't you think if you where the US you would concerned too.

It is the electronics on the boats I am most worried about. As mentioned the CASA 295's are cargo birds but there are some C-235 patrol planes that might also pose export problems.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3986 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1721 times:

I see your points, but when it said cargo and patrol stuff I didn't think it was that big of a deal.


Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20647 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1717 times:

Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 5):
when it said cargo and patrol stuff I didn't think it was that big of a deal.

Ring up the Chinese Embassy--see if they'll sell one of these birds to you stock:

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/specialaircraft/y8mpa.asp

Remind them you're from the U.S. Don't cheat now.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8507 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1670 times:

We spend more on war than the next six nations combined. Our paranoid, dominatrix fedgov ought to look after the welfare and liberty of its own subjects before criticizing a country that sells a lot of oil to the US of A.

User currently offlineF9Widebody From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1604 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1665 times:

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 7):
before criticizing a country that sells a lot of oil to the US of A.

Are you familiar with what has been going on with Chavez lately?

This is about far more than oil.



YES URLS in signature!!!
User currently offlineKevinl1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 48
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1658 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
It is the electronics on the boats I am most worried about. As mentioned the CASA 295's are cargo birds but there are some C-235 patrol planes that might also pose export problems.

Remember when it was illegal to sell the Playstation II in some countries? Look for Venezuelan agents fighting for X-Box360's at Best Buy!

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
Ring up the Chinese Embassy--see if they'll sell one of these birds to you stock:

This is a good point! If Venezuela wants technology, the Chinese will gladly sell them missile guidance systems. The problem is...translating the instruction manuals from Chinese to Spanish. I purchased some video capture cards from a Chinese manufacturer and I can tell you that there is NO WAY to learn how to install and configure these video cards other than trial and error. This is not from one experience. I also purchased several video cameras from other vendors in China and unless you know what you're doing, forget it. Then what about spare parts?

If the U.S. Gov. didn't make an issue, they loose technological exclusivity in the eyes of the manufacturers. If my company manufactured a system being sold to Spain, then sold to Venezuela, I would need to consider how important are U.S. Gov. contracts to my business. It's kind of a shot across the bow.



474218, Carl, You will be missed.
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1635 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
Did you even read the article you linked? The U.S. has the right to control where technology developed in this country is exported and licensed..

Not once its out of their hands they dont. Its owned by someone else now, the US cant do anything about it except bitch and moan.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20647 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 10):
Its owned by someone else now, the US cant do anything about it except bitch and moan.

I believe you're incorrect on that point. When a sale is made on restricted items, the buyer certifies it won't resell it to a third party on the non-authorized list. My interpretation of the rules is open to discussion, however, since I'm not in the arms dealing business myself.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1617 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):

I believe you're incorrect on that point. When a sale is made on restricted items, the buyer certifies it won't resell it to a third party on the non-authorized list. My interpretation of the rules is open to discussion, however, since I'm not in the arms dealing business myself.

Such agreements only give an illusion of control since the items are still out of your ownership, and resale agreements can become essentially null and void with changes of government. How are you going to enforce such agreements besides not dealing with the respective countries again? Bitch and moan, as thats all they can do.

As I mentioned in my point, the US has no inherent *right* to control resales once its out of their ownership - want to retain the rights? Dont sell.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20647 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1614 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 12):
As I mentioned in my point, the US has no inherent *right* to control resales once its out of their ownership - want to retain the rights? Dont sell.

If it's part of the sales agreement, yes, the U.S. would have the ability to control resales. Just like any other country that sells arms, such as the U.K.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4022 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1610 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
As mentioned the CASA 295's are cargo birds but there are some C-235 patrol planes that might also pose export problems.

I believe you can buy CN235s as civilian planes so whatever technology there is there cannot possibly be sensitive (I am talking about the cargo version here, not the maritime patrol one).



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1610 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
If it's part of the sales agreement, yes, the U.S. would have the ability to control resales.

As I said, thats just the illusion of control not the ability. You still havent mentioned how these agreements are set in stone, unchanging and unable to be broken. The items dont cease to exist when the purchasing nation decides not to stick to the agreement anymore. They might be refused further sales, but it affects in no way the physical ability to sell the current items.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20647 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1608 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 15):
The items dont cease to exist when the purchasing nation decides not to stick to the agreement anymore.

As I said, I'm not an arms dealer, but what I stated is my understanding of how the sales agreements work. If you have issues with that, you may always bring up a copy of a typical sales agreement to challenge my beliefs. Have at it.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1602 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
As I said, I'm not an arms dealer, but what I stated is my understanding of how the sales agreements work. If you have issues with that, you may always bring up a copy of a typical sales agreement to challenge my beliefs. Have at it.

A sales agreement is some text on a bit of paper. Regardless of the wording of the document, how is it going to physically prevent me from selling something covered under that agreement? Such an action may jepordise my future purchases from you, but you could decide to do that anyway - agreement or not.

Agreements are only good as long as both parties abide by them.

Remember, there are no international courts where these agreements are valid so legal action would have to be taken in the country breaking the agreement. Or the US could just bomb Spain right now to destroy the items in question.

I agree with you entirely, there are probably clauses in a sales agreement that may forbid sales to certain countries. My point is that such clauses can easily be ignored.


User currently offlineKevinl1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 48
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1601 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 15):
The items dont cease to exist when the purchasing nation decides not to stick to the agreement anymore. They might be refused further sales, but it affects in no way the physical ability to sell the current items.



Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
When a sale is made on restricted items, the buyer certifies it won't resell it to a third party on the non-authorized list

You're both correct. The difference is the sales CONTRACT and with whom?



474218, Carl, You will be missed.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20647 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1594 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 17):
My point is that such clauses can easily be ignored.

Of course they can be ignored. That's what Spain is attempting to do right now, apparently, that prompted the protest from the U.S. the OP has an issue with.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1585 times:

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 9):
I purchased some video capture cards from a Chinese manufacturer and I can tell you that there is NO WAY to learn how to install and configure these video cards other than trial and error. This is not from one experience. I also purchased several video cameras from other vendors in China and unless you know what you're doing, forget it.

You can buy a dirt-cheap video capture card or a fancy brand name capture card and they'll both come from China. You can buy a dirt-cheap video camera or a fancy brand name video camera and they'll both come from China. You can even buy a dirt-cheap no-name mp3 player or you can buy an iPod and they'll both come from China. You only get to pick which Chinese product you want; there is rarely any non-Chinese option. If you don't believe me then maybe you should start reading the product stickers more closely.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 10):
Not once its out of their hands they dont. Its owned by someone else now, the US cant do anything about it except bitch and moan.

No problem. Bitching about the actions of others is what our government does best.  Big grin



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2571 posts, RR: 31
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1582 times:

The US is worried about Chavez's military shopping spree? I think it is too late to be worried...

Chavez has already wasted taxpayers money in Russia when he bought around 20 Mi-24 choppers and 100,000 AK-47 rifles. This patrol planes aren't a threat, compared with those rifles and choppers, especially the rifles that could EASILY fall into Colombia guerrillas hands just across the border.

Also, Venezuela complained to Spain when Colombia announced that they would buy second hand tanks from Spain. After the complaint, Spain announced the cancellation of the deal. Impressive, huh? I think Chavez is becoming a growing menace day by day...

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis


User currently offlineKevinl1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 48
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1577 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 20):
If you don't believe me then maybe you should start reading the product stickers more closely.

And your point is....?
I knew what I was purchasing and how to use it. What "product stickers" are you referring to? You obviously don't buy direct from the mfgr.



474218, Carl, You will be missed.
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1572 times:

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 22):
I knew what I was purchasing and how to use it. What "product stickers" are you referring to? You obviously don't buy direct from the mfgr.

Chances are neither do you, OEMs generally dont sell to the public or in quantities less than that required to fill shipping containers. OEMs also generally dont do the packaging or instructions, thats value added by the bulk reseller.

Even OEMs like LG that do sell direct to the consumer have their own internal reseller and purchasing department as a buffer between the manufacturing side and the retail side.


User currently offlineKevinl1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 48
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1564 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 23):
Chances are neither do you, OEMs generally dont sell to the public or in quantities less than that required to fill shipping containers.

Well, I got "Samples" and they avoid FTC scrutiny. I'm not exactly "the public".



474218, Carl, You will be missed.
25 SATX : You apparently scrapped the bottom of the barrel and ended up with crud. What exactly did you expect, and why do you think your experience has anythi
26 Kevinl1011 : I got what I expected and I knew what I was getting. My point is...Venezuela can get technology from China as well as Spain. The barrier is, Chinese
27 RichardPrice : Sony, Lenovo, Acer, Dell and lots and lots of others seem to have absolutely no problems understanding or implementing Chinese technology. Considerin
28 MD11Engineer : Concerning aircraft technology, about every aircraft (maybe with the exception of older Russian types) contains parts from all over the world, so thes
29 Kevinl1011 : Exactly. They know what they're getting and how to use it. China has missle technology. They got it from the Russians. North Korea has it too. China
30 Post contains links AeroWesty : Then there's always this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoCom I still flinch a bit when having to decide on a product and Toshiba is on the short list
31 DL021 : You are correct. The US government can exercise de jure as well as de facto control over exports that contain US tech and US exported goods. Look at
32 Derico : With all due respect, the US is the last country to be dictating who can sell what to who. The US certainly has the right not to sell to Venezuela, a
33 Post contains images Nordair : They are just concerned because they want the Venezuelan military to do all their shopping at Wal-Mart.
34 Post contains images Superfly : More power to Hugo Chavez! He has every right to protect his people and another U.S. supported coupe attempt. Bush can bicker all he wants but this is
35 L-188 : Agreed, I wasn't talking of the cargo versions, since you are correct everything on the flight deck is probably airline stock. However all the electr
36 Dragon-wings : Spain's Defense Minister said neither the boats nor transport planes were armed and that the patrol planes were only equipped for self-defense
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