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The Return Of (The Real) US Of A  
User currently offlineLutenist From Canada, joined May 2005, 280 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2947 times:

If America is to retain, or perhaps I should say resume (after having handed victory to oppression-loving terrorists these past 4 years), the name of Freedom's Champion, we'll need more good news like this:

From today's Globe & Mail:

Washington — The U.S. Senate on Friday rejected attempts to reauthorize several provisions of the USA Patriot Act as infringing too much on Americans' privacy, dealing a major defeat to U.S. President George W. Bush and Republican leaders.

In a crucial vote Friday morning as Congress raced toward adjournment, the bill's Senate supporters were not able to garner the 60 votes necessary to overcome a threatened filibuster by Senators Russ Feingold, a Wisconsin Democrat, and Larry Craig, an Idaho Republican, and their allies. The final vote was 52-47

Mr. Bush, Attorney-General Alberto Gonzales and Republican congressional leaders had lobbied fiercely to make most of the expiring Patriot Act provisions permanent, and add new safeguards and expiration dates to the two most controversial parts: roving wiretaps and secret warrants for books, records and other items from businesses, hospitals and organizations such as libraries.


I'm not being overly optimistic, am I?

72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStuckinMAF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2934 times:

Quoting Lutenist (Thread starter):

I think your username got misspelled somehow. Shouldn't it read "Leftist"? I'm just glad you don't have a United States flag next to it!


User currently offlineLutenist From Canada, joined May 2005, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2924 times:

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 1):
I think your username got misspelled somehow. Shouldn't it read "Leftist"?

And I always thought it was the rightists who were more eager to limit government intervention into thier private matters.

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 1):
I'm just glad you don't have a United States flag next to it!

You and me both, brother.


User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2924 times:

StuckinMAF:
I am a "leftist" with a United States flag next to my username.
Now what?  

By the way, StuckinMAF is a cool username.  

[Edited 2005-12-16 21:24:11]


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2921 times:

'Cause lord knows those lefties are tree-huggin,' democracy hatin' fascists, right?  Yeah sure

Good on the Senate for getting that one done. Now, if they could just repeal the whole bloody mess that is USA PATRIOT and actually come up with some coherent legislation instead of that massive kneejerk reaction of a bill..



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineDaedaeg From United States of America, joined Feb 2003, 656 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2905 times:

Quoting MattRB (Reply 4):
'Cause lord knows those lefties are tree-huggin,' democracy hatin' fascists, right?

Hey if the shoe fits.



Everyday you're alive is a good day.
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2898 times:

Quoting Daedaeg (Reply 5):
Hey if the shoe fits.

...but it doesn't.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineLogan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2895 times:

Quoting Lutenist (Reply 2):
And I always thought it was the rightists who were more eager to limit government intervention into thier private matters.

 checkmark  Only in this case they get to infringe on our rights in the name of freedom. Glad to see this shot down. {big thumbs up}

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
I am a "leftist" with a United States flag next to my username.

As am I. What about it?

Quoting MattRB (Reply 4):
coherent legislation

That's asking a bit much, don't you think?


User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2863 times:

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 7):
Quoting MattRB (Reply 4):
coherent legislation

That's asking a bit much, don't you think?

Yeah, true.. y'all would have to have legislators that care more about their country then their own image/political aspirations..

This is not to say that there are not those congresscritters and senators who do serve their country well, and do so out of a sense of duty and patriotism - but rather that they are overshadowed, IMO, by those seeking their positions for ulterior motives (power, greed, etc) rather than helping their country grow and prosper.



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2839 times:

I wouldn't get all too happy about it yet. On Wednesday the House voted 251-174 to renew 14 of the 16 expiring provisions in the Patriot Act, and it got hung up in the Senate on the compromise bill.

A victory for personal rights, for sure, but it wasn't an overwhelming victory.

[Edited 2005-12-16 22:07:17]


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineLutenist From Canada, joined May 2005, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2826 times:

I wonder why StuckinMAF and Daedaeg, bless their hearts, would accuse anyone who opposes the PATRIOT Act of being a leftist. Is it simply because we oppose a key Bush piece of legislation? That would be taking a rather narrow view of things--i.e., rightists side with Bush and Republicans in all matters, while leftists oppose Bush and Republicans in all matters.

In any case, I feel that what is at issue here is an unjustified intervention, through the PATRIOT Act, into personal liberties and private matters. The threats facing a society as secure and a nation as mighty as the USA don't justify such draconian legislation. Unjustified limits placed on personal liberties and privacy, two fundaments of American-style liberty, is handing victory to the terrorists and others who oppose America.

This is why I feel that a curtailment of the PATRIOT Act is a good thing.


User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2819 times:

One the most conservative members of the House, Ralph Hall (R-TX) is the most voacl oponenet of the Patriot Act.


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week ago) and read 2791 times:

So what exactly does the Patriot Act have to do with a canuck?

User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2770 times:

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 12):
So what exactly does the Patriot Act have to do with a canuck?

About as much as the US had to do with Iraq when it invaded it.


User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2730 times:

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 12):
So what exactly does the Patriot Act have to do with a canuck?

Other than the fact that any and all personal information housed on US servers/stored by US companies becomes fair game regardless of the country of residence of the person in question?

Nothing. Nothing at all.



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4265 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2721 times:

I have been happy all day because of this! Way to go Russ and Larry, et al!

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineSFOMEX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2721 times:

I find ironic that what really failed was the vote to invoke cloture and then getting a vote over the Patriot Act itself (the Dems are filibustering the bill). If they could vote, the senate would approve it even if by a slim majority.

Democracy in action folks...


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2708 times:

Thank god the left has some balls.

Majority rules sucks, that's why the filibuster has stood for generations.

N


User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2701 times:

The Patriot Act is bad legislation all around and I think it should be gotten rid of. It was something that was voted in during the aftermath of 9/11 where anyone who would have voted against it would have been chastised. In terms of limiting personal privacy to american citizens, this whole bill is BS. Dont bash Canadians or anyone for that matter for being against the patriot act. This is straight out of Nazi Germany...people must give up some of thier personal liberties for the war against (fill in whatever usergroup you like here i.e jews, terrorists, etc) but in reality is allows the government to spy on its own citizens for no real reason without the oversights of courts. The patriot act in terms of legislation is the biggest threat to American liberties and privacy.

User currently offlineLogan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2696 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
The Patriot Act is bad legislation all around and I think it should be gotten rid of. It was something that was voted in during the aftermath of 9/11 where anyone who would have voted against it would have been chastised.

 checkmark 

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
In terms of limiting personal privacy to american citizens, this whole bill is BS.

 checkmark 

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
The patriot act in terms of legislation is the biggest threat to American liberties and privacy.

 checkmark 


User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4343 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 16):
Democracy in action folks...

Yeah, just like this. . . Shocked Lawmakers Demand Spy Program Probe

Seems, if true, that even the Patriot Act wasn't enough for our Prez, so he authorized the NSA to eavesdrop without any warrents at all. Again, if these allegations prove true, I'd say that Sen. Feingold hit it on the head, "I don't want to hear again from the attorney general or anyone on this floor that this government has shown it can be trusted to use the power we give it with restraint and care,"



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2686 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
The patriot act in terms of legislation is the biggest threat to American liberties and privacy.

I would amplify this and say that in light of the current elections in Iraq, considering our participation to bring democracy there, we'd be literally shooting ourselves in the foot if we don't preserve basic civil liberties here.

And don't misunderstand, I realize there are bad people out there who need to be dealt with, but do it right. At the end of the day we're a nation of laws, and they must not be usurped.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineLutenist From Canada, joined May 2005, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2665 times:

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 12):
So what exactly does the Patriot Act have to do with a canuck?

The US is the country that exerts the greatest influence on political, cultural, and social currents in the Land of the Canuck. The current administration is the most paranoid, insular, arrogant, and chauvinistic administration the US has seen in a long time. Its world influence has been mostly negative these past four years. Perhaps today's defeat means that its overall influence, and, thus, its influence on Canada, is on the wane.


User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2649 times:

Quoting Lutenist (Reply 22):
Perhaps today's defeat means that its overall influence, and, thus, its influence on Canada, is on the wane.

Unfortunatly dont think this will be the case. I think other news coming out about the president allowing the NSA to spy on American citizens without court warrants is as big a problem as the patriot act.


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2646 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 17):
Majority rules sucks, that's why the filibuster has stood for generations.

Majority rules is the ONLY way things can be done. That's not to say that the rights of the minority are not protected, but to say 'majority rules sucks' makes you just as bad as the fascist ideologies people like you say you're against.

Being a left-wing liberal is about freedom of thought, ideas and speech and democracy. For all those things to exist, it has been shown repeatedly over thousands of years that a majority rules system is the only one that works.


25 RwSEA : You and your partisan politics and name-calling. Someone is against the patriot act (and rightly so!) and you immediately cry "Lefty!!". Why does it
26 Bushpilot : Not with this administration. This Orwellian straight out of 1984. The never ending war. In the weeks after 9-11 the Bush administration did thier ve
27 Logan22L : Some worthy young liberal guards. Remember to stay this way when you're 40, 50 & 60. I've actually grown more liberal with age. The idiots who say "i
28 ANCFlyer : Utter horseshit. Elected rightfully and honestly . . . .your opinion here is inflammatory and sets the tone for yet another thread that is instantly
29 FDXMECH : What he said.
30 Mham001 : You haven't answered the question. How does the Patriot Act affect you as a Canadian? It doesn't and your criticism of US internal politics is no bet
31 Tbar220 : Isn't that the beauty of the fillibuster, a right guaranteed in our consitution of our democratic government? Oh wait, you only approve if the Republ
32 Post contains images Mir : Remove the words "to use the power we give it with restraint and care" from that statement and what do you get? An even more true statement! To be fa
33 Cptkrell : Not to rekindle for a larger flame, but has ANYone here on this forum been PERSONALLY "ripped" by the USA Feds (or even really inconvenienced for that
34 AeroWesty : Me personally, no. But then, I've had a Secret Service file since I was 16, and an FBI file since my early 30s. Couldn't give a flip. At least if the
35 Lutenist : In no specific way as yet. However, because I greatly value the right to personal privacy, it worries me whenever there are signs that the light of f
36 Post contains images ANCFlyer : It's value is tainted instantly by the remarks in the thread opener . . . it's value is instantly slanted and biased making for an instantly slanted
37 Logan22L : Ever the Moderate, Pep? It's not about how it has or hasn't directly affected me. I don't think so much about myself as I do about society as a whole
38 ANCFlyer : I like to think I'm one of the good guys . . . . and I know there are plenty of bad apples in the bunch. Those are the ones we must weed out and be w
39 NonRevKing : Go in the photography forum and talk to all the photographers who have been taken into custody, asked to go downtown, asked to leave public property,
40 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Dangit, don't do that edit thing . . . If thats the perception, that's not the intent. Sorry 'bout that Chief . . . My concern is that we are bitchin
41 Post contains images Logan22L : I hope you're right. If only it stopped there. Talk about spin.
42 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Yeah, that was kind of a low bid shot are sarcasm I'll agree . . . But it just shows you form my perspective how much I think this is so much ado abo
43 Clipperhawaii : A perfect response! And it was the first post too! There is a reason Canadians are Canadians. LOL
44 Greasespot : I sort of agree...BUt at the same time the question needs to be asked...Could they have caught that asshole under the normal channels and tools avali
45 NonRevKing : Because they have common sense and don't worship themselves? B
46 ANCFlyer : You would be right, IF they (we? - since you are one too now) could catch the bad guy without the Patriot Act, what good is it. I mentioned I have ne
47 Greasespot : On a little different note: I wonder how many provisons in the patriot act are taken as normal up here in Canada as we do not have the same constituti
48 Clipperhawaii : No. Because they have common sense but don't know what to do with it. LOL
49 Post contains links StuckinMAF : Sorry, didn't want to quote all of what you guys have said. It's been very enjoyable to watch you two discuss this, truly one of the finer points of
50 Post contains images NonRevKing : Touche... I could make the argument that we don't have common sense and do things with it. B
51 CX747 : Thank God you don't live in my country. The Patriot Act is helping us maintain our #1 status. People are way to concerned about the Government being a
52 Mham001 : Fair enough Lutenist. My comments were not directed solely at you, but the vaious other Canadiens who so typically jumped on the bash-the-US bandwago
53 NonRevKing : And that is completely offset by our outsourcing to India and money borrowing from China. USA: Trying to be #3! B
54 Clipperhawaii : Stop being a whinny American.
55 Logan22L : Well, I live in "your" country, and I probably feel more strongly about this than does Lutenist. If you think this is about library books, then add n
56 NonRevKing : I'm not. We should all demand better from our gov't. B
57 Post contains images Logan22L : How eloquent. The loveable right-wing ignores a valid point by Non-Rev, and pulls the most tired, hackneyed, played, and spent cliche out in the open
58 Clipperhawaii : You forgot to add "appropriate". Let's not tear ourselves (Americans) apart over things that may or may not be valid. That seems to be the typical mo
59 Mham001 : Thats fine. Where have you been while we have been losing far more rights under the guise of a war-on-drugs. Search and siezure laws have been extend
60 Clipperhawaii : Answer? He did not. I am all fine with correcting things in our society, but to fire blame and whine about things? No, no. Not me. Fix them with your
61 NonRevKing : That's how I feel this administration has treated this country, with contempt and arrogance for our freedoms. We essentially agree on the first bit,
62 Cptkrell : As I personally concluded at the time I asked the question knowing, in advance of course, that many of the self-appointed Gran Pubbahs of A.net wouldn
63 NonRevKing : WTF are you talking about man? I answered your question. In case it wasn't clear, NO I PERSONALLY HAVE NOT...BUT, I don't get into these situations w
64 Logan22L : So, the two of you are in the CIA? How do you know what I did? I'll tell you what I did. I didn't even know. And yes, that may sound bad, but it's ho
65 AeroWesty : Be that as it may, I answered your question. I also told you why this issue is important to me. That's a complete answer. Deal with it.
66 Dougloid : You don't have any perspective. Back when i was a young pup if you took out three books from the library about communism you'd get your name turned i
67 Clipperhawaii : You don't even know? (giggles) That my friends is a brutally honest answer. LOL If only all liberals were that dumb. Wait! They are!
68 Logan22L : Honesty is something you might want to familiarize youself with. I have no issue with it. From what I've seen, you do. Not because you've lied, but b
69 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Holy Smokes, Logan! Not THE Grapefruit Spoon.
70 Clipperhawaii : If your post is any indication of the type of debate you wish to have you may be disappointed. One thing you also need to bring along besides your spo
71 Post contains images AeroWesty : May I quote you on that? There are a couple of folks around here who aren't exactly liberal who should hear that. Seriously.
72 Legend500 : These are routine arguments that fly in the face of many a basic conservative stance, and as a moderate conservative, I should know. I ask those post
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