N506CR From Costa Rica, joined Nov 2004, 147 posts, RR: 2 Posted (8 years 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5021 times:
Ok I'm not an often-poster but I noticed no one had brought this thread for discussion yet... specially since most a.netter's just seem to enjoy it so much.
The wall is here... (and I am 101% agreeing with it... wrap the whole thing!)
The House of Representatives voted to build a wall along the US border with Mexico to stop illegal immigration.
The US border with Canada was not forgotten. The bill "includes a requirement for the Secretary of Homeland Security to conduct a study on the use of physical barriers along the Northern border."
The US-Mexico border is 3,200 kilometers long. (2000 miles)
"The government of Mexico ... believes that a reform which only considers security measures will not contribute to a better, more integral bilateral management of migration issues," the Foreign Relations department said in a statement.
which is, if you think about it, true. Immigration (illegal) is not going to stop, they will just keep looking for new places to cross the border (if there's any "new" place to discover yet...)...
Mexico argues existing barriers built along heavily crossed sections of the border have not stopped migrants from crossing, rather have pushed them through more desolate, dangerous areas.
Now I really wish this could be done...
House leaders wouldn't allow a vote on a volatile proposal to deny citizenship to babies born in the United States to illegal immigrants.
Why not??? I mean most countries have strict guidelines regarding acquisition of citizenship. The US shouldn't give it out so easily. I read in the local newspaper that this represents 10% of the babies born in the US every year, about 400,000 brand new could-be-President-runners whose parents ain't-even-driver's-license-holders. And then they want the goverment to pay them the living soul of their expenses. Wtf?? Plus, I've met a couple of kids like this, and although they enjoy so much the fact they didn't do sh** to be Americans and were one since their very first tear, and go around "laughing" on their all-visa-denied-relatives the fact that they just can't be denied entry or there ain't almost any possible way in this planet they were forced to leave what their relatives somehow see as 'paradise' that they ain't even allowed to enter, when these kids visit grandma back in Hidden Hole Town somewhere in the middle of a mountain (without their parents who ain't got a SSN yet after those 1X years, of course), 95% (okay maybe too much but that's what I've seen so far) of them spend their lifetime complaining that they don't like the US, they want to move, yada yada yada. I am able to point out names of kids like this, and they annoy the hell out of me . And as far as this policy goes, couples will try to have 'American' babies, well, they'd rather wait 18 years for their sons to 'claim' them or whatever that's called, than don't have the least chance to somehow become legal in their lifetime.
And I say all this mostly because the people who emigrate (let's stay on the un-educated, un-professional immigrants) to the United States ain't the best coins in our country's piggy bank, ok, this does not applies to everyone. In the time I have spent in the US, I have had to deal and get to know some of these illegals, and know who they are: lazy ones, high school (or even elementary) drop-outs, problematic people, people with 0 knowledge, barely speak any english, alcoholics (I was amazad to see the rate of alcoholic immigrants - well, yes, I know Americans do it too, but come on we're immigrants we've got to keep the low profile, the US ain't our "turf" - gotta stick to the "foreigner's rule"), people who ain't as honest as you wish, and BS like that. And if you ask me, I would say 9 out of 10 fall under the described category. And their sons are going to be just like them, in most cases of course. Also, intelligence, IQ, say it how you like it, relates in important proportion to the parents', and guess what, those high school drop-outs that put up the wall of the buildings and make your nice gardens in the US ain't no smarta$$es at all. So it ain't like the elite of the 'breed' is being taken to the US... sorry but... nope.
If it was my decision, I would bring back all those who are there, and send those who are here now, again, I know there are some good ones out there, and bad ones still here as well. Because those who were able to give a little more effort here are the ones who would really contribute to the United States, unlike those easy-way low-wage conformers (ok, low-wage for US standars, high for,in this case, Central American standards).
[after the speech]dude... wake up... he's done[/after the speech]
Well let's get this started. Here's the link to a Mexico+wall keyword search in Google where you might find other articles.
StuckinMAF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4981 times:
Actually, this is an issue near and dear to my heart. My wife is from Mexico and my daughter is a US citizen. My wife is a naturalized US citizen BECAUSE SHE GOT OFF HER DEAD ASS AND STUDIED AND TOOK THE TEST TO BECOME A CITIZEN!!!
Believe me, the wall would be a good thing. I say "would be" because I'll believe it when I see it. I'm sure some fanatical left-wing immigration-rights group will file suit in a federal court and it will be tied up until I'll never see it built in MY lifetime! Same kind of thing that is happening with "The Minutemen", a group that is just reporting what they see, not taking any direct action against these CRIMINALS that are crossing illegally (is there another word for those breaking federal laws?) LULAC and other left-wing organizations are strongly against people sitting legally at the border and reporting the activity they see. Is that right? I sure as hell don't think so!
ShyFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4974 times:
Quoting Venezuela747 (Reply 2): isn't it unconstitutional to deny him citizenship, doesn't the constitution say everyone born here is a citizen?
14th Amendment: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
It would have to be repealed by another amendment, which I don't think stands the slightest chance of being ratified.
Lnglive1011yyz From Canada, joined Oct 2003, 1590 posts, RR: 16 Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4974 times:
And someone asked the other day in another thread if there was Anti-US sentiment here in Canada.
For over 200 years we have had an undefended border between the US and Canada. Putting a wall up is a defence.
To those who will say "It's for homeland-security", you know what? It goes both ways. They can come from the US into Canada just as much as they can the other way. (I do REALIZE they're just studying the Canadian border option, so don't jump all over me haha)
And, for 9/11 preachers, remember.. when the terrorists entered the US prior to 9/11, it was American border guards who granted them access to the US.
I think this is a terrible decision, and I think that it will further hinder relations between Canada/Mexico and the US.
Sad.. this administration needs to go.
Supporters of Bush have *no* idea how quickly their rights are being taken away. My god we need to wake up.
Fumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4964 times:
Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 5): And someone asked the other day in another thread if there was Anti-US sentiment here in Canada.
For over 200 years we have had an undefended border between the US and Canada. Putting a wall up is a defense.
Are you comparing the Mexican border to the Canadian? Do you really need an explanation?
The wall is a nothing. It will not be effective and will be about as useful a barrier as a pair of panties on a prom date. The wall is about public perception. The wall is for the US populace away from the border who have no idea of the ineffectiveness of walls and fences to illegals. It might make the ignorant feel safe.
So what is the difference between the Canadian border and Mexico's? Illegals. While illegals do contribute large amounts of surplus money to social security (which will most likely be eradicated in 15 years) they use more tax funds in the infrastructure than they pay. The 2nd generation illegals put strains on education, hospitals, as well as the general infrastructure. It is also estimated that Mexican illegal aliens send back over $14 billion a year to Mexico. This is the 2nd largest source of income for Mexico only behind oil. Do you think that Mexico wants to stop illegal immigration? Of course not, this is why they have just recently started dual citizenship for Mexicans in America, to keep the funds flowing in. Some Mexican states produce pamphlets on how to cross the border as well as how to use the system to acquire an education illegally. Perhaps Mexico should turn the mirror on themselves and their own Southern border. They deport over 150,000 illegal Guatemalan every year with no remorse or hesitance.
On the other hand, this wall is ridiculous. A wall will do nothing to stop the flow and will only be a waste of tax payer money. The only pragmatic solution is to increase the amount of work visas for Mexican immigrants while severely punishing employers for hiring illegals. A $50,000 fine per instance of hiring each illegal will deter any kind of illegal employment. When there are no jobs, there will be no illegals. A negative side to this is the fact that prices on certain goods and services will increase, however so will the lower and medium end wages.
If you ask me, both the Mexican and American governments have been turning their heads to illegal immigration because it helps big business in the US and is a lot of money for Mexico. Its time to make things legit though, and start enforcing fines to those who hire illegals. This will also eradicate abuses to the illegals as those under work visas would be protected by the US Department of Labor.
We're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 21 Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4936 times:
Quoting N506CR (Thread starter): about 400,000 brand new could-be-President-runners whose parents ain't-even-driver's-license-holders.
I wouldn't worry about that, since you have to be very white in order to win. I think FOX has been doing background checks on every candidate's whiteness before the party picks a nominee for the last few elections.
Jwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 20 Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4917 times:
Sadly they didn't vote to "wall up the border", only to put up an easily penetrated fence.
A true wall is needed to keep the illegal immigrants and other criminals out of the country, preferably a wall with some minefields and alligator filled ditches to back it up.
L410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5533 posts, RR: 19 Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4896 times:
Quoting Jwenting (Reply 8): A true wall is needed to keep the illegal immigrants and other criminals out of the country, preferably a wall with some minefields and alligator filled ditches to back it up.
Yeah, why not just charge the barbed-wire fence with high-voltage, use
some minefields, attack dogs and shoot anyone in sight...
Cfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 days ago) and read 4861 times:
I find it utterly ridiculous that the U.S. government makes you fly through hoops to come into the country legally, but has an unsecured border to the south where millions cross unimpeded.
My mother (a Swiss citizen), was once held up in Europe for 4 months because of some expired card or other, in spite of having been married to an American for 40 years, having a home in the U.S., and having children who are U.S. citizens. In the end, it took a personal note from a Texas Senator to the state department to get her paperwork through.
I say eliminate the illegal immigration, and ease up on the restrictions on legal immigration.
Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 6): The wall is a nothing. It will not be effective and will be about as useful a barrier as a pair of panties on a prom date. The wall is about public perception. The wall is for the US populace away from the border who have no idea of the ineffectiveness of walls and fences to illegals. It might make the ignorant feel safe.
Then what do you suggest? Good intentions? A wall will at least make it harder.
I would also suggest a new policy that would replace bussing over captured illegals over the border. Put them on a plane for the capital city of their origin. If they have to start from Mexico City, they can't try so often.
ANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4840 times:
The wall might be a slight a deterrent but it won't solve the problem, or likely put a dent in the problem, of illegal immigration. Unless of course it's thirty feet high, electrified, and we maintain some sort of aggressive response to those crossing . . . which we absolutely cannot do.
The folks coming in from the southern borders in the US will find a way to breach the wall, and they will continue coming in to the US.
Increased patrols and electronic sensors and increased enforcement with a quicker ride home; that's a better prospect. That's the right answer.
Will we get every single illegal? Hell no. The sheer numbers of crossings every day will make that impossible. A concrete wall is not, however, the answer. That's like putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound - it might look clean, but it's not going to do the job.
. . . .
As for the northern border with our Canadian friends . . .
I'm torn about how to enforce illegals crossing there. As I'm familiar with the Alaska Canada border, I can tell you patrolling that with any human force is untenable. I have seen apprehended illegals at the Port of Entry at the Alaska Highway. It was fairly simple for them to cross - just exit a vehicle on the Canadian side two/three miles shy of the border. The vehicle with the legal driver makes the crossing and picked up his friends two miles inside Alaska. There is no fence, no electronic frontier, nothing. The remaining border with the US is similiarly easy to cross.
What to do about that? I don't see a thousands of miles long fence between us and our Canadian friends. It will require due diligence on the part of the Canadian and US border forces to reduce. But it will never stop.
Any increase in border protection on the part of the US alone will appear to be overly aggressive and unfriendly towards our Canadian friends, and I'm certainly not for that. What is the answer on the US/Canada border? I don't know.
ME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13877 posts, RR: 26 Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4817 times:
I am rather surprised that the USA has NOT taken decisive steps to secure its southern border in a serious way. A lot has been reported about people captured by US-authorities when trying to get across the Mexican-US border, but far less about the uncounted ones who succeeded and whom I guess that they were/are the majority. The new conditions may then force the Mexican leadership to press for REAL solutions, and the Mexican president will likely then be on less friendly terms with the leader in the White House. Somebody in Washington might even tell the Mexicans that a decent telephone-system (among other things) in Mexico might be wonderful for potential investments in that country.
ME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13877 posts, RR: 26 Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4816 times:
A strange aspect is that the USA criticizes Syria for not having its borderline with Iraq under control, but needs three decades to start to get its own southern border under control ! very very very strange !
Yeah, that's like saying Nazi concentration camps are the same thing as a county jail. You are being totally absurd and putting the issue into your own twisted context by showing the pictures you showed side-by-side. You know DAMNED WELL that the wall put up in Berlin and along the East-West German border, as well as the border between the Koreas is to keep people IN rather than legitimately protecting a soverign state from intruders.
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9): Yeah, why not just charge the barbed-wire fence with high-voltage, use
some minefields, attack dogs and shoot anyone in sight...
I TOTALLY AGREE!!! I also say that the US Border Patrol should be equipped with Cobras and Apaches to patrol the entire border with! Radical idea? Hardly! An invasion is in progress and it must be stopped!
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16564 posts, RR: 52 Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4804 times:
There's a big difference between building a Wall between the US and Mexico and the Berlin wall, people trying to cross into the US from Mexico will not be shot at from either side.
The Mexican Army is not shooting at folks trying to cross into the US, in fact the Mexican Government openly supports people subverting US laws by illegally crossing into the US. The money Illegal immigrants in the US sends back to Mexico is a staple to the Mexican economy to which the Mexican Government does not want to stop.
I am and my post was intended to be a bit of a hyperbole, however the symbolism of the fence is striking and only supporting whover said in the other thread that the US under Bush are becoming more and more 1984ish.
Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 15): You know DAMNED WELL that the wall put up in Berlin and along the East-West German border, as well as the border between the Koreas is to keep people IN rather than legitimately protecting a soverign state from intruders.
But the population behind the Iron Curtain / North Korea is fed with government propaganda that the fence is there to protect them from those "bad guys outside". Sort of like the hysteria you just demonstrated:
Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 15): also say that the US Border Patrol should be equipped with Cobras and Apaches
A country engaging so often in self-fooling chest-beating contests of how "free" they are, shooting people on their border. Wonderful!
Why don't you just change the ius soli concept of gaining US citizenship, which leads to a massive abuse, to a ius sanguini one?
You have got to be kidding me. That kind of statement kills any sort of credibility you may have in making an argument.
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16): Really, I've heard drag queens state it less dramatically.
Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 18): That's because the drag queens you hang out with aren't here on the front lines like I am.
As a native Californian who has known many Latin immigrants, with and without papers, th only "front line" I see is the one that is picking the strawberries you sliced over your Cheerios this morning. Perhaps you should think about that, and the celery you are having with dinner, the bok choy in your chinese food and countless other things before you start using terms of war.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
StuckinMAF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4735 times:
Quoting N1120A (Reply 21): th only "front line" I see is the one that is picking the strawberries you sliced over your Cheerios this morning. Perhaps you should think about that, and the celery you are having with dinner, the bok choy in your chinese food and countless other things before you start using terms of war.
It amuses me when people that don't have a legitimate point attempt to legitimize illegal activity.
Quoting N1120A (Reply 21): As a native Californian who has known many Latin immigrants, with and without papers,
I don't care. No one can be closer to the situation than I......
Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 3): Actually, this is an issue near and dear to my heart. My wife is from Mexico and my daughter is a US citizen. My wife is a naturalized US citizen BECAUSE SHE GOT OFF HER DEAD ASS AND STUDIED AND TOOK THE TEST TO BECOME A CITIZEN!!!
And with most of her family still in Mexico, they sometimes come here to visit LEGALLY. On the other hand, I also know a LOT of illegals and most of them want to be citizens. That still does not change the fact that they are here ILLEGALLY.
Now, back to the strawberries issue. This is also not a legitimate argument because this is a market-driven economy. If the illegals are not there to do the job, someone else will do it. Don't be ignorant enough to think that illegals are doing the jobs that Americans would not do. I'm SO sick of hearing that in the media and it's entirely NOT TRUE! Yes, prices might go up on some things because those who hire the illegal laborers would have to hire from a different labor market. But it WOULD work out! It does in other countries, it would here, too.
P.S., I don't eat strawberries, Cheerios, celery or Chinese food.
Searpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4343 posts, RR: 11 Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4721 times:
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12): The folks coming in from the southern borders in the US will find a way to breach the wall, and they will continue coming in to the US.
Increased patrols and electronic sensors and increased enforcement with a quicker ride home; that's a better prospect. That's the right answer.
Anybody who has actually spent time along the southern border knows this. Physical barriers do not stop the crossings, they barely delay them. I've seen a brand new fence w/ razor wire and concrete barriers subverted w/in 12 hours. The only thing that shifts the flow is actual presence of people, or knowledge of a quick response. I think that is the answer for the Canadian border as well. We don't need a fence or anthing else to the north, but well thought out and strategiclly placed electronic monitoring, with a coordinated response plan when there is an illegal crossing.
The hyperbole and hysteria on both sides of the issue is incredible. Those crossing illegaly are breaking the law, and thus are criminals. No amount of rationalizing will change that. At the same time, our economy is partially built on their presence. Eliminating them, while it won't cause the collapse of the western world, will change our way of life. Like any problem, treating the obvious symptoms, without treating the underlying cause, won't do anything but temporarily surpress the issue. As long as there is a significant chance that an illegal will be able to get across the border, make money, and send it home, they will continue to come. We have to eliminate what makes it profitable for them to take the risks (jobs) as well as make it ever more dificult to actually make the crossing.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
Fokker Lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4717 times:
Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 6): A wall will do nothing to stop the flow and will only be a waste of tax payer money.
Tax payer money is money that was forcibly removed from our economy. It doesn't do us any good unless it's being spent and put back into the economy.
I wouldn't care if they spent billions on building a wall, and then spent billions more ripping it down. The more tax payer money that is spent on American workers and companies, and removed from government control, the better off we are.
25 Fumanchewd: I have spoken to border patrol agents as well as illegals who laugh when people introduce the idea of the wall stopping people. All they do is dig un
26 Gilligan: Yeah, but who would want to unless there is a casino or a hockey game nearby? The next Presidential election is in 2008, just under 3 years from now.
27 Fumanchewd: A large majority of them use forged documentation or false social security numbers, meaning that pay is taken from their checks but never collected.
28 StuckinMAF: The way it works is that most of them are either paid straight cash under the table (day labor), or they are paid as contractors and none of the dedu
29 ME AVN FAN: To take the second question first, none. The Syria/Iraq border is more than 600 kms long and Syria is a small country of only 17 mio people. And such
30 ANCFlyer: Having spent a considerable amount of time at/near San Ysidro - the most heavily trafficked crossing in the US - I can tell you . . . I know Border P
31 Gilligan: It is the Armys job to defend the border. PC does not apply. Don't want to use the Army? Then use the Marines. Is it anymore ridiculous than expectin
32 N1120A: I made a completely legitimate point. The US economy, particularly the massive agricultural sector, benefits massively from the work of latin america
33 Gilligan: Spoken like a true Frenchman ready to cut off some more heads!! lol Why don't you worry about your own immigrant problem first? You know, the one tha
34 ANCFlyer: With this thought I will completely concur . . . . it's time to think out of the box where illegal immigration applies. Posse Comitatus would apply,
35 N1120A: Spoken like a truly short-sighted person who has not a clue about me. Seems you forget that we owe US independence largely to the French. If you patr