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Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score  
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4428 posts, RR: 6
Posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1692 times:
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As heard from a lieutenant, when you take the entrance test and your black you automatically get a 20% boost on your test score. They apparently want a "more diverse" fire department and "affirmative action." Opinions?

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKiwiinOz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1687 times:

I believe as thread starter it's only fair that you state your own opinion first

User currently offlineJake056 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1687 times:

I'd like to see some official confirmation from the Chicago FD or another verifiable source. Sorry, but "as heard from a Lieutenant" doesn't do it for me.

User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4428 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1684 times:
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Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 1):
I believe as thread starter it's only fair that you state your own opinion first

It's blantely racist and not right.


User currently offlineGo3Team From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3267 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1650 times:

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 3):
It's blantely racist and not right.

Sounds more like affirmative action to me. Oh wait, they are the same.

[Edited 2005-12-19 06:45:39]


Yay Pudding!
User currently offlineKiwiinOz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1648 times:

Quoting Jake056 (Reply 2):
I'd like to see some official confirmation from the Chicago FD or another verifiable source. Sorry, but "as heard from a Lieutenant" doesn't do it for me.

I agree. There will be plenty of spin on this, in particular the 20% figure.

Whether you think this is right or wrong depends a lot on whether you believe that a significant prejudice exists against black people. My expereince of racism in recruitment has been that it is very easy to legally deny employment on a range of criteria, without committing any breaches of the Equal Opportunity act. I have certainly seen people not hired based on race, even when presenting as an equal candidate. If this sort of thing is widespread in terms of black employment in the US, then I guess it's true to say that there is a natural dis-advantage for the black community, and this sort of affirmative action seeks to tip the balance back to an even footing.

The problem is that this sort of practice has been tried in many countries around the world, with mixed success. But for now, I can't think of a better way to compensate for prejudical hiring practices.


User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4428 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1647 times:
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Quoting Go3Team (Reply 4):

And your point is?


User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4428 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1637 times:
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Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 5):
Whether you think this is right or wrong depends a lot on whether you believe that a significant prejudice exists against black people. My expereince of racism in recruitment has been that it is very easy to legally deny employment on a range of criteria, without committing any breaches of the Equal Opportunity act. I have certainly seen people not hired based on race, even when presenting as an equal candidate. If this sort of thing is widespread in terms of black employment in the US, then I guess it's true to say that there is a natural dis-advantage for the black community, and this sort of affirmative action seeks to tip the balance back to an even footing.

The problem is that this sort of practice has been tried in many countries around the world, with mixed success. But for now, I can't think of a better way to compensate for prejudical hiring practices.

So, just because I'm black, I automatically get a boost in the test score? That's not right and it's racist.


User currently offlineGo3Team From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3267 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1630 times:

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 6):
And your point is?

Sounds like you have your panties in a bunch, maybe a little jealous that someone has priority over you in the hiring process. Get over it. Ever since laws were made requiring equal access, there have been adjustments made to comply. I guess this is one of them.



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User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4428 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1629 times:
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Quoting Go3Team (Reply 8):
Sounds like you have your panties in a bunch, maybe a little jealous that someone has priority over you in the hiring process. Get over it. Ever since laws were made requiring equal access, there have been adjustments made to comply. I guess this is one of them.

And a black person should have priority over anyone else because why???


User currently offlineKiwiinOz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1620 times:

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 7):
So, just because I'm black, I automatically get a boost in the test score? That's not right and it's racist.

Well it depends. Being black, do you feel you are disadvantaged in other ways by people's prejudices? That's racist too. Can you suggest another way to reduce the impact of that prejudice. In a sense, you are correct. This affirmitive action positively discriminates on the basis of race, so is in a way, racist. But it assumes that that black person would have stood a lesser chance of getting that job if they achieved the same score as a white guy/girl. I don't live in America but I'm sure you will have an opinion on whether that is reality. If it is then I have no problem with this

Unfortunately, this doesn't get to the root of the problem, which is correcting people's prejudices. In fact, from what I understand, it may even make it worse.


User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4428 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1615 times:
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Disadvantaged please, anyone who isn't white is a vicitim of racism by the Chicago FD.

User currently offlineGo3Team From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3267 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1614 times:

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 9):
And a black person should have priority over anyone else because why???

I don't know the answer. Maybe ask people who have been let go because that company has a quota to fill. I'm not saying there is any sense to the way people are hired. All I am saying is that the best person for job is who needs to be hired, I don't care if they are purple, have 2 heads, and don't tie their shoes. If they can do the job right, so be it. As for hiring, just by observation, it seems that government jobs always have there own wacky process, be it 20 points or a mandatory percentage.



Yay Pudding!
User currently offlineKiwiinOz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1607 times:

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 11):
Disadvantaged please, anyone who isn't white is a vicitim of racism by the Chicago FD.

OK you seem to be a bit narrow minded and unable to consider, or even understand the concept of the other viewpoints here, perhaps because this particular subject is striking a bit of an emotional chord. You seem to be following a very simplistic line or reasoning here for a topic that is in essence pretty complex.

Are you suggesting that black people are not disadvantaged by people's stereotypical views of them? If you are then I imagine a lot of your fellow countrymen would disagree. Having not lived in the States, I don't really know either way as I only have Hollywood and the media to guide me, (and we all know how reiable that can be!)


User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1591 times:

So they are saying blacks are too stupid to pass the test without the help. It sounds racist to me.

User currently offlineTexdravid From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1364 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1589 times:

Only 20% boost? Why not make it 50%? Why not 75%?

Hell, why not obviate the need for a test at all for blacks?

The slippery slope never ends, and the fallacy of reverse discrimation goes on.



Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
User currently offlineJake056 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1583 times:

And what exactly is this "test" testing?? The ability to do math? Number of push ups? How many angels on the head of a pin? How fast light travels?

Could the original poster please provide more information on this.

That is why I thought we need more info before we all get deep into other issues, which we ALL are eager to do.


User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4428 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1580 times:
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Quoting Jake056 (Reply 16):
And what exactly is this "test" testing?? The ability to do math? Number of push ups? How many angels on the head of a pin? How fast light travels?

Could the original poster please provide more information on this.

All I know is an entrance test, which is probably knowledge about fighting fires etc, however it's just a guess.


User currently offlineJake056 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1575 times:

I don't believe in any kind of automatic affirmative action (automatic points as in your example). However, I could see a situation whereby preference is given to one candidate over another for diversity purposes. Depends on the situation.

Private college, similar candiadates, want some more diversity on campus, then ok.

Public college, no exception. All are equal.

Governmental body, no exception.


User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1557 times:

If I'm not mistaken the courts have ruled such programs illegal. Does anybody have any facts, instead of posting by a HS student on second hard hearsay?


"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineUnited737522 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1537 times:

This is true to a point. They don't get a 'boost', they have a lower passing score. Example: Whites must score a 95 or above and blacks I think are a 90.

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40013 posts, RR: 74
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1523 times:

I did a search and couldn't find any links to back up Iowaman's story.  confused 


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User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1515 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 21):
I did a search and couldn't find any links to back up Iowaman's story

Thats because Iowaman "heard" this from someone else, and cannot confirm this to be actual fact. Instead its just hear say.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17777 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1511 times:

Quoting KROC (Reply 22):
Thats because Iowaman "heard" this from someone else, and cannot confirm this to be actual fact. Instead its just hear say.

I can't comment on the fire department but stuff like this happens every day in many other institutions--universities for starters...



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3705 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1505 times:
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Quoting Iowaman (Thread starter):
As heard from a lieutenant, when you take the entrance test and your black you automatically get a 20% boost on your test score. They apparently want a "more diverse" fire department and "affirmative action." Opinions?

It happens all the time with fire and police departments. I know a bunch of firefighters in Milwaukee and they will all say that if you are a young, in shape white guy, don't bother, you don't fit the criteria. Affirmative action is a bunch of bullshit, hire the best candidate, not the best candidate of a certain color. Fire fighters are getting killed because the standards have been lowered so much due to affirmative action, Milwaukee is up tow double digits in firefighter deaths this year for the first time in many years. The only police and fire department who doesn't hire based on affirmative action is the NYPD and NYFD, and every year they have to pay a fine to the EEOC for not hiring by their guidelines. New York understands that they want they want the best of the best, not the best of the rest.



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
25 IndianaPilot : I'll let you all know this spring when I take the test !! I hope to god it isn't true...I've been waiting a long time for Chicago FD to finally open u
26 StevenUhl777 : If I were a white man seeking a job there, I'd file a lawsuit claiming I was discriminated against. But, since I'm fighting an affirmative action sit
27 Post contains images Iowaman : Those are so true and my points exactly.
28 KiwiinOz : It has been mentioned that people have died as a result of afirmative action, due to substandard firefighters etc being hired. This may well be the ca
29 Mrocktor : My impression is that it is ultimately evil. It is trying to achieve a proportional distribution of race in all fields of endeavor - irrespective of
30 Superfly : Is a link to this 'story' too much to ask for?
31 Post contains images CaptOveur : There is no link, please read the full thread starter in the future. I did a brief search on Lexis-Nexis, which turned no articles on this particular
32 Superfly : Perhaps the thread starter should be aware that people aren't going to take him/her seriously unless they have some facts to back up there statement.
33 Jaysit : What if one guy has 90 points and the other has 88 points? The choices aren't usually between 0 and 100, but between 90 and 88. Its at that point whe
34 Omoo : I dont think these fire departments collect ethnic data before the person takes a test, common sense would say the data is collected after the test re
35 Post contains links Lentigomaligna : If I recall freshman Poli Sci correctly, SCotUS ruled that quotas that are illegal, but racially-based affirmative action is very much permissible. M
36 StevenUhl777 : The point I was trying to make is that everyone who takes the test start out with 0 points. No extra bonus, nothing. If there's 100 points possible,
37 Jaysit : I agree. And the Supreme Court has made it quite clear that this sort of nonsense is not to be allowed.
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