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"Birthright Citizenship" Could Be Gone For Some!  
User currently offlineDeltaFFinDFW From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1439 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2020 times:

Another controversial topic for congress in 2006...

Article

[Edited 2005-12-27 05:18:53]

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2014 times:

I believe this is good. Illegals shouldn't be able to sneak across the river and squeeze one out in the desert, and then expect the US government to take care of it. This citizenship law has been taken advantage of enough, it is time to change it.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineZootrix From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2006 times:

Frankly, we should also erect a solid impenetrable wall along the Mexican border. ITS ONLY 1600 MILES LONG. Think about this, the US has built in excess of 55000 miles of interstate highways, that are basically rock solid concrete slabs stretching from coast to coast. So, don't tell me that building a 1600 mile long concrete wall along the border is impossible. Some of my friends actually have said that, but stop arguing when I cite the highway example.

Fact is, some industry lobbies don't want to see it happen, because of the cheap source of labor from south of the border. No benefits, low wages, long work hours, etc.


User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1999 times:

Just a funny side note about Mexican cheap labor:

The seniors in my old high school have developed a nifty little tactic to obtain alcohol. They drive over to the train station where the day workers hang out, pick up as many as they can in a pickup truck, and drive them over to the liquor store, give them money, and tell them to buy as much beer as they can. They then pay them $5 each and drive them back to the train station. What happens if they get carded, I have no idea, but it works somehow. Just wish I had thought of that in high school.  Smile

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21552 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 1936 times:

From the article:

Section 1 of that amendment, drafted with freed slaves in mind, says: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States."

Some conservatives in Congress, as well as advocacy groups seeking to crack down on illegal immigration, say the amendment has been misapplied over the years, that it was never intended to grant citizenship automatically to babies of illegal immigrants. Thus they contend that federal legislation, rather than a difficult-to-achieve constitutional amendment, would be sufficient to end birthright citizenship.


I don't see how a constitutional amendment isn't needed here - the children are born in the US, and they are certainly subject to US jurisdiction. The amendment may never have been intended to grant the citizenship of the children of illegal immigrants, but it's pretty clear to me that it does regardless.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26414 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 1929 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):

I don't see how a constitutional amendment isn't needed here

You don't see because it is most definately needed. Just like the people who think term limits are something that you can just pass into law, these people who think they can just dictate who is a citizen and who isn't seem to forget there is a constitution in this country.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 1924 times:

The problem is not the children of illegal immigrants being born in this country, which grants the child US citizenship. The problem is their illegal immigrated parents. Don't blame the children - they had nothing to do with it.

Stem the flow of the illegal immigrants and this problem (if that's what you want to call it) will solve itself.

Oh, an that wall thing:

Quoting Zootrix (Reply 2):
Frankly, we should also erect a solid impenetrable wall along the Mexican border.

a) Never gonna happen.
b) Won't work anyway.

As discussed here:

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border (by Slider Dec 22 2005 in Non Aviation)6/


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1879 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
don't see how a constitutional amendment isn't needed here - the children are born in the US, and they are certainly subject to US jurisdiction. The amendment may never have been intended to grant the citizenship of the children of illegal immigrants, but it's pretty clear to me that it does regardless.

And the same "literalists" who believe in reading the Constitution as its written as and when it suits them, suddenly run for cover.


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1871 times:

There is no question that there needs to be an amendment to the constitution, so that the appropriate passage reads: "All persons naturalized or born of parents lawfully in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States.", or something of the sort.

I'm no expert, but I know of no other country that grants citizenship to children born of illegal immigrants. In many countries, even legal immigrants can't get citizenship for their children for a long time.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1871 times:

Quoting Zootrix (Reply 2):
Frankly, we should also erect a solid impenetrable wall along the Mexican border. ITS ONLY 1600 MILES LONG.

20 years ago, Ronald Reagan told the Soviet Union to tear down a wall. Now, there are those who want to build a wall in the United States.

Strange, how we forget the past so fast.

We don't need a wall; we don't need to strip birthright citezinship. We need the goverment to fund the border patrol, so it can patrol the border effectively.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1855 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
I'm no expert, but I know of no other country that grants citizenship to children born of illegal immigrants. In many countries, even legal immigrants can't get citizenship for their children for a long time.

And what do the experiences or laws of other countries have to do with us in this context?

Birth on US soil conveying the birthright of US citizenship has served this country well for centuries.

Put in place tighter controls on the borders, slash benefits, but leave this basic birthright intact.


User currently offlineNancy From United States of America, joined May 2004, 467 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1855 times:

The law does not state that the parents can continue to live here after the birth of their child, and it is not illegal to deport them. If we enforce the law as it is written, the problem would go away with no changes needed to the constitution. I think that an amendment to the constitution should be the last resort after we've exhausted all other options.

User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2571 posts, RR: 31
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1837 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):

I'm no expert, but I know of no other country that grants citizenship to children born of illegal immigrants. In many countries, even legal immigrants can't get citizenship for their children for a long time.

I'll give you one, no wait I'll give a lot...

Venezuela: During the economic oil boom of the 70s, lots of illegal inmigrants came from Colombia, Peru, Ecuador and Dom. Republic and gave birth to children only to avoid being deported. All of their children are Venezuelans as much as I am.

Colombia

Ecuador

Peru

Brazil

Mexico

Spain

Portugal

And correct me if I'm wrong: Canada.

The list can go on and on...


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1833 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 10):
And what do the experiences or laws of other countries have to do with us in this context?

Nothing directly, other than most countries have recognized that without control over immigration, you have chaos, which has been proven in the U.S.

The US immigration problem should be so simple, compared to other countries. You only have 2 borders. Look at Europe, with lots of different borders, most of which are very open - you can cross from one country to another without showing any documents, for the most part. They can grant such liberty of movement because they know that it is quite difficult for people to work and live (and have kids) in a country where they did not immigrate into legally.

In Switzerland, for example, you cannot get a job unless you show your original proof of citizenship or work permit, and your original AVS card (our version of Social Security). We are surrounded on all sides by countries that have much higher unemployment rates and lower average salaries, and we still manage to keep illegal immigration to a small trickle, in spite of wide-open borders on all sides. The dream of many people is to work in Switzerland, because of the exchange rate. Someone working as a maid here can send home in eastern europe, africa or asia enough money for their family to live like kings. The few illegals I know here make close to $20 per hour, tax free, far more than in the US.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 10):
Put in place tighter controls on the borders, slash benefits, but leave this basic birthright intact.

I would agree with that only if immigration can be effectively slowed to a tiny trickle - say 10,000 per year or less.

Quoting Nancy (Reply 11):
The law does not state that the parents can continue to live here after the birth of their child, and it is not illegal to deport them.

But if the child is a citizen, he has the right to stay, and they can (and do) claim that seperating a child from his parents is cruel, so they all stay.

Can you give any examples of parents ever being deported while the minor child stayed in the US, or was also deported?


User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12241 posts, RR: 35
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1809 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 10):
Birth on US soil conveying the birthright of US citizenship has served this country well for centuries.

Put in place tighter controls on the borders, slash benefits, but leave this basic birthright intact.

And why do you feel so strongly about ILLEGAL immigrants? They come here, leech off the US government (and in turn tax payers), rather than taking steps to get here legally.



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2571 posts, RR: 31
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1800 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 14):

And why do you feel so strongly about ILLEGAL immigrants? They come here, leech off the US government (and in turn tax payers), rather than taking steps to get here legally.

You are so ignorant in this subject my friend....

Have you ever bothered to check how long are the waiting lists to get an appointment for US Visa interview in US Embassies around Latin America? In my case, Venezuela, you have to pay USD100 just to get an appointment date which is usually 6 months from the date you pay the USD 100. After paying those USD 100 (in some countries that amount is higher than the minimun monthly wage) and waiting 6 months, you go to the embassy to have a Consular officer deny your Inmigrant Visa in most the cases and tell you to move over so that the next person in line can get his/her chance to make the interview.

People do try to get their Visas legally, but it is simply impossible to get them. The only way to get an inmigrant or non-inmigrant visa is to prove that you have a high income, low debt and huge savings. Which my friend doesn't apply to the poor rural Mexican and Central American inmigrants that cross illegally into the USA.

I don't agree with illegal inmigration simply because it is against the law and law must be respected but I also don't tolerate discriminatory terms to those people whom the majority are good persons (not criminals) that only want to make a decent living. Those inmigrants work in adverse conditions with lower wages than the rest of the American workers. It is thanks to those people that the price of many agricultural products is low. Those hard working people shouldn't be discriminated on. What I also don't tolerate are the illegals that come to the US to live a life of crime... those motherfuckers should be rounded up and shot at.

Saludos desde Monterrey,
Luis


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26414 posts, RR: 76
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1793 times:

Quoting Nancy (Reply 11):
The law does not state that the parents can continue to live here after the birth of their child, and it is not illegal to deport them.

Actually, the law does currently state that they can stay, though that actually can be changed, unlike the birthright citizenship. Then again, there is a very strong argument to be made that children cannot execute their full constitutional rights without their parent, so that parent needs to be there.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
you have chaos, which has been proven in the U.S.

Proven by what?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):

I would agree with that only if immigration can be effectively slowed to a tiny trickle - say 10,000 per year or less.

If immigration went to 10,000 or less per year, the US would collapse

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 14):

And why do you feel so strongly about ILLEGAL immigrants? They come here, leech off the US government (and in turn tax payers), rather than taking steps to get here legally.

First, children born in this country are in no way, shape or for illegal. Second, people take steps all the time to come here legally, and are often denied no matter what skills they bring simply because of the country they come from. Finally, illegal immigrants contribute positively, not negatively to the US economy by providing cheap labor, spending money to live, eat, etc. in the US.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3079 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1786 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
We need the goverment to fund the border patrol, so it can patrol the border effectively.

They will not do anything because they need cheap(almost slave) labourers to work on the big fruit and veg. "plantations" of their friends..........I mean farms.....  wink 
GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently onlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6793 posts, RR: 34
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1780 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
Strange, how we forget the past so fast.

You cannot be serious in comparing the Berlin Wall to a proposed wall on the US/Mexico border, can you?

The Berlin Wall was an artificial construct that literally separated one city, tore families apart and was a divide based on Communist ideology.

This wall is proposed to save the sovereignty from a foreign invasion, help fortify national security from unwanted terrorists and help reweave the fabric of American culture that is being shredded daily.

Daisy-chain immigration is killing us, and it's generating more generations of dependent class and growing the class divide.

And since you brought it up, I'll throw it out there again (as discussed in the other wall thread)...human history would show you that building walls IS effective.


User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3079 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1777 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 18):
This wall is proposed to save the sovereignty from a foreign invasion, help fortify national security from unwanted terrorists and help reweave the fabric of American culture that is being shredded daily.

OK this is a good one.....If a terrorist wants in they will do it legally......There are plenty of terrorist bombers out there who can come in legally.....Besides why take the chance at coming in illegally and possibly getting caught and exposing the whole operation...

I have notced that a lot of terrorists have been caught coming into the USA illegally....Wait the last ones came in legally....

Re-weave he fabric of american culture? I have no idea how that will happen by a wall.

GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1777 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
The problem is not the children of illegal immigrants being born in this country, which grants the child US citizenship. The problem is their illegal immigrated parents. Don't blame the children - they had nothing to do with it.

Stem the flow of the illegal immigrants and this problem (if that's what you want to call it) will solve itself.

The most sense in the thread so far.

The way I see it is this, the conservatives want strict interpretation of the constitution as its written... EXCEPT when doing that doesn't serve its interests. Now I hear the same people saying that the 14th amendment needs to be changed or a new amendment introduced. So if the founding fathers wrote such a great document, and you want to be such "strict interpreters" of it, why the hypocrisy everytime when doing so doesn't suit your cause?

Can't have it both ways.



NO URLS in signature
User currently onlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6793 posts, RR: 34
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1767 times:

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 19):
I have notced that a lot of terrorists have been caught coming into the USA illegally....Wait the last ones came in legally....

Didn't you read about the 51 Middle Eastern detainees that came across the border?

You haven't heard about the suitcase nukes that may have possibly been smuggled across?

There's no ONE way for them to access the USA--they're using all possible avenues, studying, doing their research, and then acting on it. We need to make sure that all means of access--legal and illegal--is staunched off completely and as tightly as possible.

right now, we're doing none of it. But these are thoughts to expound on in another thread, really.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1757 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 18):
You cannot be serious in comparing the Berlin Wall to a proposed wall on the US/Mexico border, can you?

I'm dead serious my friend. Different reasons, yes, but a wall is a wall is a wall. What kind of country do we become if we just build walls, real or imagined, around us, to solve problems? We become no better than the Soviets were in that regard. A wall isn't the answer. That's just another form of paranoia speaking, imho.

Quoting Slider (Reply 18):
This wall is proposed to save the sovereignty from a foreign invasion, help fortify national security from unwanted terrorists and help reweave the fabric of American culture that is being shredded daily.

Puhleez! That's one of the most paranoid and idiotic things I've ever read on here. I almost fell off my chair, but stopped myself 'cause I didn't want my co-workers to stare at me. Unbelievable.


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1751 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
If immigration went to 10,000 or less per year, the US would collapse

Sorry, I meant ILLEGAL immigration.

If illegal immigration is stopped, the rules and paperwork for legal immigration can be loosened up. Right now it is very difficult to immigrate legally.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Proven by what?

Millions of people in the country not paying taxes, often working at less than minimum wage, driving without any insurance, not covered by work or home-related safety or health standards, does that seem like a well organized situation to you?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Second, people take steps all the time to come here legally, and are often denied no matter what skills they bring simply because of the country they come from.

My point exactly. Stop illegal immigration, and ease up on legal immigration.

I might also add that I have great doubts about the integrity of anyone who does not shutting down illegal immigration by any means possible. I feel that they have a vested interest in maintaining an economic/social subclass of the population, who do not have to be afforded the legal minimums in terms of pay and safety, for a variety of reasons (all bad).


User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12241 posts, RR: 35
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1746 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 15):
You are so ignorant in this subject my friend....

I haven't checked the embassies in Latin America, but I am an immigrant myself (from Norway). And yes I've paid my fees, and yes I spent an entire day at the lovely INS waiting for them to process me. So I know all about that. Can't get a Visa, well, I guess I'll just be selfish and say too bad. If living conditions are truely terrible where they come from, there are humanitarian ways of seeking asylum and the likes. Or move to another country with better living, but lesser requirements.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
First, children born in this country are in no way, shape or for illegal. Second, people take steps all the time to come here legally, and are often denied no matter what skills they bring simply because of the country they come from. Finally, illegal immigrants contribute positively, not negatively to the US economy by providing cheap labor, spending money to live, eat, etc. in the US.

The children are legal, but the parents aren't. I never said every illegal is a leech, but in the long run, they are still illegal. And they might contribute positively to the economy, but then again, so does every tourist. Difference is, these people get sick, and need hospital care, which then has to be paid for by the government. If there weren't illegals, cheap labor wouldn't be as cheap, and the US would have wages comparable to that of other countries. Yes, prices would increase, but so would wages. Many hospitals in Texas are suffering because they are required by law to provide help to anybody, but illegals usually will not have the ability to pay. Also, it is a known fact that people send money to their relatives in other countries, how does that improve the economy here?



911, where is your emergency?
25 Mir : I'd venture to say that immigrating from Norway is far easier than immigrating from most other non-European countries in the world. Don't assume that
26 EA CO AS : So? Where is it written that the U.S. has to make visas available in the first place?
27 KaiGywer : Did you read the rest of my post? I also said that if they can't get into the US legally, they might wanna look at other countries. The US has no res
28 ANCFlyer : Exactly. And again. Exactly.
29 LTBEWR : "Birthright citizenship" was, as noted above, was created due to the need for legalizing the citizenship of ex-slaves upon the conclusion of the Civil
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