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DNA Test Proves A Guilty Man Was Executed  
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1715 times:

In news that will be surely ignored by all the anti-death penalty crowd, the Washington Post is reporting here

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2006/01/12/AR2006011201235.html

that convicted and executed murderer Roger Coleman was in fact responsible for the murder of his sister in law. Although Coleman went to his death proclaiming his innocence, Virginia Gov. Mark Warner announced that testing on DNA taken from sperm proved Coleman committed the 1981 rape and murder of his sister-in-law, Wanda McCoy.

Wow. He was in fact guilty, despite all his protestations to the contrary. Imagine that.

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTheCoz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1703 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
DNA Test Proves A Guilty Man Was Executed



ha ha


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1690 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
In news that will be surely ignored by all the anti-death penalty crowd

People are not just opposed to the death penalty because of the countless innocent that have been executed.

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
Virginia Gov. Mark Warner announced that testing on DNA taken from sperm proved Coleman committed the 1981 rape and murder of his sister-in-law, Wanda McCoy.

Wow. He was in fact guilty, despite all his protestations to the contrary. Imagine that.

Or did it just prove that he had sex with her?



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1680 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
People are not just opposed to the death penalty because of the countless innocent that have been executed.

Have they ever proved that anyone executed was innocent?


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1668 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 3):
Have they ever proved that anyone executed was innocent?

Yes, and that people on death row were innocent



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9304 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1658 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 3):

Have they ever proved that anyone executed was innocent?

"Missouri has an error rate of '30%' in death penalty cases."

Denise Lieberman, Missouri ACLU Director, fall 2003


The Rutherford Institute has established Virginia has 68% percent of death penalty rulings which are the result of 'misconduct and incomptetent counsel'

June, 2003



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineB707321C From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1629 times:

I find it very disturbing that one has to prove that a person was guilty after the execution. That means there was room for error and that the death penalty should never been applied. The verdict before execution should be conclusion, if that’s not the case you can never apply this type of punishment. This time you just got lucky.

User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1618 times:

The DNA test took longer to come back than his appeal? That's a serious problem.


Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1609 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
In news that will be surely ignored by all the anti-death penalty crowd

People are not just opposed to the death penalty because of the countless innocent that have been executed.

I understand that, and respect the opinions of those that oppose the death penalty. However, the Coleman case was going to be the watershed case that brought the death penalty to its knees. That scumbag convinced a lot of people he was innocent, and he's probably laughing his ass off wherever he is that he hoodwinked so many honest people.


User currently offlineBrokenrecord From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1592 times:

This may sound harsh, but frankly, we need some more criminals to die. There are too many as it is. I think if more people were executed Singapore style, then the US would have a lot less crime.

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21418 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1582 times:

Quoting Brokenrecord (Reply 9):
his may sound harsh, but frankly, we need some more criminals to die.

You might consider looking at the supply side... Simply killing some selected few offenders is not the way to go.

The death "penalty" is on its way out - no civilized society can afford something as barbaric as that.


User currently offlineB707321C From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1567 times:

Quoting Brokenrecord (Reply 9):
There are too many as it is. I think if more people were executed Singapore style, then the US would have a lot less crime.

Then, Why does the US have more crminals than a lot of countries without the "death-penalty" ?


User currently offlineTmatt95 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1559 times:

Hi,

Quoting Brokenrecord (Reply 9):
This may sound harsh, but frankly, we need some more criminals to die. There are too many as it is. I think if more people were executed Singapore style, then the US would have a lot less crime.

If you were someone waiting on death row for a crime that you did not commit (in the wrong place at the wrong time), do you think you would still agree with the death penalty..... I think it is good the person was at least not innocent but America should get rid of the death penalty completely. Just because a person has done something wrong does not mean they will continue to do that for the rest of their lives. A prop per system is one that, in my opinion allows the person to do good and help others in society.

Matt


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1559 times:

Quoting STLGph (Reply 5):
"Missouri has an error rate of '30%' in death penalty cases."

Denise Lieberman, Missouri ACLU Director, fall 2003


The Rutherford Institute has established Virginia has 68% percent of death penalty rulings which are the result of 'misconduct and incomptetent counsel'

June, 2003

This is misleading. A conviction being overturned on the grounds of inadequate counsel is not the same as someone being found innocent. I personally feel that there have been enough instances where DNA evidence has conclusively excluded a person who has been previously convicted and sentenced to death that the system needs to be re-examined.

Remember, DNA never can be used to conclusively to 100% certainty say that the person did it. DNA evidence can say that to a statistical certainty the samples match.

I think to execute anyone without having all possible DNA evidence tested PRIOR to their execution is simply a denial of substantive and procedural due process and therefore unconstitutional.

IMO the standard of proof for capital crimes needs to be much higher. I believe that you should need a confession, DNA evidence, forensic evidence or eye witnesses that can conclusively establish that the person committed the crime.


User currently offlineTmatt95 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1555 times:

Hi,

Quoting Pope (Reply 13):
eye witnesses

Eye witnesses are not very reliable. I remember watching a TV program where they showed a picture of a man running away from a shop on CCTV and then after the break asked the people who watched the clip to think of the colour trousers the man was wearing out of a number of choices. I got it wrong and they said a lot of others would have as well, as time goes by details can become blurred.

Matt


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1551 times:

Notice I said eye witnesses. If multiple people all recount the same story, then the probability of them all recounting the same story and all being wrong decreases.

Now if all of them say a different thing then those differences should be factored into the credibility and reliability of the evidence being presented.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1542 times:

This is misleading. A conviction being overturned on the grounds of inadequate counsel is not the same as someone being found innocent. I personally feel that there have been enough instances where DNA evidence has conclusively excluded a person who has been previously convicted and sentenced to death that the system needs to be re-examined.

Remember, DNA never can be used to conclusively to 100% certainty say that the person did it. DNA evidence can say that to a statistical certainty the samples match.

I think to execute anyone without having all possible DNA evidence tested PRIOR to their execution is simply a denial of substantive and procedural due process and therefore unconstitutional.

IMO the standard of proof for capital crimes needs to be much higher. I believe that you should need a confession, DNA evidence, forensic evidence or eye witnesses that can conclusively establish that the person committed the crime.[/quote]

Good work mistah Pope.

For the information of the general populace, it is only the uninformed who say "The US has the death penalty".

There are fifty states here as well as some territories and a commonwealth and a fair number do NOT have the death penalty.

I'm an attorney and a former prosecutor. I live in Iowa and I can tell you that every county attorney I've ever spoken to on the subject is eternally thankful that we do NOT have the death penalty and have NOT had it since 1964-which was well before most of Europe abolished it with the notable exception of Germany-take a bow, Klaus and Thorben, you're on the right side of THIS debate.

There are a number of states (12? 13?) that do not have the death penalty. If nothing else, not having it truncates the appeal process for criminals-they are not automatically guaranteed a trip thru the federal system as condemned men are.

Mister Pope, I do not agree with you about the utility of confessions. I suggest you study the Reed technique and your study of the work of Reed and Inbau in this context. I had the opportunity to ask Professor Scheck about this very subject and it wasn't even on the radar screen. Falso confessions are as common as bad eyewitness identification.

For those of you interested in more than a casual exercise in US bashing, I suggest the following topics.

The Innocence Project

Elizabeth Loftus



http://www.newsbatch.com/dp-international.html


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1534 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 16):
I'm an attorney and a former prosecutor.



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 16):
Mister Pope, I do not agree with you about the utility of confessions. I suggest you study the Reed technique and your study of the work of Reed and Inbau in this context. I had the opportunity to ask Professor Scheck about this very subject and it wasn't even on the radar screen. Falso confessions are as common as bad eyewitness identification

Obviously, you have an expertise on this issue that trumps anything I can add on the topic. As a arm chair political afficionado I try to stay up to speed on this sort of thing but it's impossible to read everything and be aware of all the different studies out there.

I'll look for that study.

For the record, I used to be very pro-death penalty and still believe that most of the people convicted and sentenced to death committed the crime they were found guilty of. However, the demonstrated error rate (i.e. convicted and sentenced but actually innocent - not just overturned because of legal technicalities) is simply unacceptably high for a sentence as severe as the death penalty.

As a matter of public policy, I believe that the Supreme Court should revisit the death penalty and dramatically reconfigure the evidentiary standards required for the imposition of that penalty. While I fully respect each state's right to set up its own criminal justice system, I believe that the 14th amendment makes it clear that whatever they do needs to pass federal constitutional muster.

Thanks for the info.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21418 posts, RR: 54
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1517 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 16):
I'm an attorney and a former prosecutor. I live in Iowa and I can tell you that every county attorney I've ever spoken to on the subject is eternally thankful that we do NOT have the death penalty and have NOT had it since 1964-which was well before most of Europe abolished it with the notable exception of Germany-take a bow, Klaus and Thorben, you're on the right side of THIS debate.

During the nazi years the killing both without and with judicial "help" had gotten so far out of hand that it just had to be stopped. And we're still happy with that.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19199 posts, RR: 52
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1515 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
A Guilty Man Was Executed

First time for everything, I suppose.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1510 times:

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 7):
The DNA test took longer to come back than his appeal? That's a serious problem.

Yeah, so if this test had come back and proven that he was innocent, that would have been kind of awkward, wouldn't it? How about finishing the testing before you kill the person? Just so you can cover your ass in case you get it wrong.

Quoting Pope (Reply 13):
I believe that you should need a confession, DNA evidence, forensic evidence or eye witnesses that can conclusively establish that the person committed the crime.

I don't think that eyewitnesses alone should be able to condemn a person to death. Humans make mistakes (and can be pressured, even unintentionally, into making incorrect decisions) and while you may never be able to prove to an absolute certainty with forensic science or DNA evidence that someone did a certain crime, I would think they're a lot more reliable.

I'd want conclusive scientific evidence to be automatically required before executing someone.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1480 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 16):
I had the opportunity to ask Professor Scheck about this very subject and it wasn't even on the radar screen. Falso confessions are as common as bad eyewitness identification.

Barry Scheck? Wow. There's an unbiased source for you.

Quoting Pope (Reply 17):
Obviously, you have an expertise on this issue that trumps anything I can add on the topic. As a arm chair political afficionado I try to stay up to speed on this sort of thing but it's impossible to read everything and be aware of all the different studies out there.

Don't be so fast to give up your position. I'm also an attorney, yet I don't think my opinion on a given legal issue automatically trumps a layman's opinion, unless we are talking about factual aspects of a given law. When it comes to informed discussions on public policy issues such as the death penalty, the WORST thing the general public can do is cede the debate to those of us in the legal profession. Just because we hold a law license doesn't mean we should control the debate. After all, neither prosecutors or defense counsel can claim to be unbiased when it comes to controversial issues like the death penalty.

Quoting Pope (Reply 17):
As a matter of public policy, I believe that the Supreme Court should revisit the death penalty and dramatically reconfigure the evidentiary standards required for the imposition of that penalty. While I fully respect each state's right to set up its own criminal justice system, I believe that the 14th amendment makes it clear that whatever they do needs to pass federal constitutional muster.

Assuming one could overcome the federalism concerns, the execution of this would be very easy. Just make the states follow the current federal model for capital cases.....


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1461 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 21):
Assuming one could overcome the federalism concerns, the execution of this would be very easy. Just make the states follow the current federal model for capital cases.....

Though I am not an attorney, I know enough about the evolution of federalism in the 20th century to know that it is hardly an obstacle to the application of the due process clause of the 14th amendment. Hell if federalism were a concern, 90% of what our government did won't be deemed constitutional.

As for me giving up my position, I'm not doing that at all. I'm just saying that I'm not up to speed on the technical merits of the evidence as presumably discussed in those studies. I think members of this forum often try to interject opinion into factual discussions and facts when the matter is one of opinion. Instead of expressing my opinion on something that is fact based (though I'm sure the statistical evidence present therein is skewed one way or the other), I just said, I've got nothing factual to add to address your point.


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1456 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
Or did it just prove that he had sex with her?

If that were the case, it would have been AFTER she had already been raped and murdered. Ewwwwww...  vomit  vomit  vomit 

He would deserve the death penalty just for that  Wink

Quoting STLGph (Reply 5):
"Missouri has an error rate of '30%' in death penalty cases."

Denise Lieberman, Missouri ACLU Director, fall 2003

Hardly an objective source.


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1454 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 17):
As a matter of public policy, I believe that the Supreme Court should revisit the death penalty and dramatically reconfigure the evidentiary standards required for the imposition of that penalty.

WTF??? What does the supreme court have to do with it? It's up to the legislatures to decide what punishments should be allowable and what proofs should be acquired to obtain it.


25 MDorBust : The inevitable counter to this claim. Name one person that has been shown to have been innocent, and executed, after the death penalty reform. There
26 STLGph : how so, oh brilliant one? how so, oh brilliant one?
27 Pope : I'm surprised that this comment would come from you given the understanding of our system you've previously demonstrated. Because of the supremacy cl
28 STLGph : gosh, maybe found guilty from incompetent counsel? *GASP*
29 Pope : Now be careful there. The constitutional protection is for substantive and procedural due process - not necessarily a favorable outcome. Indigent def
30 Cfalk : OK, stated like that it makes a little more sense. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that since the death penalty is a state issue, and t
31 Halls120 : You mean "truly innocent people" such as scum like Roger Coleman? In the cases you claim to be "indisputable" where innocent people were wrongly sent
32 Post contains images Pope : No. To me a truly innocent person would be someone convicted of rape that when the DNA is tested years later comes back as showing that it wasn't his
33 Post contains images LesMainwaring : There is no place for the government to kill ... stick them in prison for life, but it is not any person's place to take another's life. What is even
34 Post contains images ANCFlyer : That doesn't answer RJs question STL . . . it says there are errors, and I know that's possible . . . what it doesn't say is how many of those wrongl
35 Halls120 : But in all these cases where men on death row have been exonerated, that exoneration has taken place before they were executed. In other words, while
36 Go3Team : All this was, was an attempt by Warner to pull a George Ryan in his last days in office. It backfired. Now his assclown replacement Kaine will attempt
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