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French Rattle Nuclear Sabers-Iran Unimpressed?  
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1613 times:

Here's something from Der Spiegel that's interesting.

About time the French decided to kick ass and take names. It's easy when you get the hang of it.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,396191,00.html

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1577 times:

France did actually exert pressure on Iraq as well to keep the inspections going before the invasion. They were ready to send troops as well. It was not mentioned a lot in the US media at the time for some reason, however...!  crazy 

User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1565 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
France did actually exert pressure on Iraq as well to keep the inspections going before the invasion. They were ready to send troops as well. It was not mentioned a lot in the US media at the time for some reason, however...!

Ummmmmm....that's why I subscribe to Der Spiegel and listen to the BBC, m'good man. Too bad they moved As It Happens to a lousy time slot here-I must dust off my short wave receiver.

And the topic du jour is I-R-A-N and F-R-A-N-C-E not I-R-A-Q and B-U-S-H

To clarify-that was T-H-E-N. This is N-O-W.

Just want to make sure there isn't any subtle attempt to change the focus here even if ever so slightly.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1560 times:

You and others were already warming up your freedom fries again - prejudices die hard, but France has always been more complex than those stale taunts insinuate.

User currently offlineVanguard737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 682 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1485 times:

Good sign, but you'll have to forgive me for being weary about statement made by the French...they seem to enjoy talking the talk, but seldom walk the walk. Like Bush or not, at least you know he always says what he means, and stands by it. Chirac waves nukes today, and the peace pipe tomorrow.


320 717 722 732 733 735 737 738 744 752 753 763 772 DC9 DC10 MD80 B1900 S340 E120 ERJ CRJ CR7
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21558 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1474 times:

Quoting Vanguard737 (Reply 11):
Like Bush or not, at least you know he always says what he means

Oh really?

"It's in our country's interests to find those who would do harm to us and get them out of harm's way." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., April 28, 2005

"I repeat, personal accounts do not permanently fix the solution." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., March 16, 2005

"I have a record in office, as well. And all Americans have seen that record. September the 4th, 2001, I stood in the ruins of the Twin Towers. It's a day I will never forget." —George W. Bush, Marlton, New Jersey, Oct. 18, 2004

"Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB-GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country." —George W. Bush, Poplar Bluff, Mo., Sept. 6, 2004

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004

I doubt he meant what he said in those instances.  silly 

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFrequentflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 736 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1428 times:

A lot of stereotype specialists in here... I guess it is easier for some people to stick to fantasy than to reality. Well, that does not fly!

As much as I dislike Chirac and disagreed 110% with him on Irak -I support W for what has been done-, this latest move on nuclear use is a good one I think. Just need to be tough with hyper religious extremists.



Take off and live
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1422 times:
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Wow...this thread did not take long to head south, between the mockers of all things Froggish and their defenders, who seemingly all live in Germany.

I for one take the French threat seriously. You may take it to the bank that if they are attacked, by a weapon of mass destruction, then someone, somewhere is going to get it in the shorts. Just ask the Libyans whether the French should not be listened to when they actually get their dander up.

That said, the French are in a bad spot when it comes to acting militarily because of internal and external pressures and they have enemies who may underestimate the dangers of attacking the French, who have serious concerns about their internal stability (political, economic, etc) when it comes to keeping things flowing (read oil and money) and don't need anything getting out of hand.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1410 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
Just ask the Libyans whether the French should not be listened to when they actually get their dander up.

Thank you.

And here we all thought that Libya started to behave itself only after Dubya began to prance around in a tight flight suit.

I, for one, do believe that Iran will take the threat of French anger and distaste for its nuclear program seriously. For better or for worse, the Arab world believes that the French are the neutral arbiter in the West. When the French cock their weapons, its a sign that the obnoxious Iranian President ought to back down.

(Besides, if the French are pissed, where will the current crop of Iranian leaders go into exile when they're kicked out of power? For all their venom against the West, the Mullahs just love Paris. Ayatollah Khomeini went into exile in Paris, and I'm sure he had some lovely stories to tell his merry band of miserable mullahs about peaceful walks down the Avenue Foch at night, coffee at Montmartre and all that wonderful pastry at Fauchon.)


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3983 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1404 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
Just ask the Libyans whether the French should not be listened to when they actually get their dander up.

I honestly don't know what incident you are talking about, could you please enlighten me a bit? Is it Chad?

And it is true, this unfounded hatred of the French in a lot of sectors of the US society never ceases to amaze me...



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineFrequentflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 736 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1397 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 17):
this unfounded hatred of the French in a lot of sectors of the US society never ceases to amaze me...

Here's my read: French people have a tendency to do things their own way. Like it? Good. Don't like it? They don't care. At times they are aggressive (Ivory Coast, Chad, Iran), at times they are subdued (Irak) for a variety of reasons, good or bad.

In the US people are not used to having an ally -which France, when you look at history, remains- that acts independently. That leads to misundertandings, and the creation of stereotypes. These have more impact on the average Joe in the street in the US than in France. Again, they do not care.



Take off and live
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1374 times:
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Quoting Pyrex (Reply 17):
I honestly don't know what incident you are talking about, could you please enlighten me a bit? Is it Chad?

Yes..it's Chad.....



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13186 posts, RR: 77
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days ago) and read 1345 times:

Congrats to DL021 and Frequentflyer for stopping virtually every US response to this looking like the product of not very intelligent teenagers.
You moan at stereotypes of Americans being ignorant, self absorbed, childish, then produce responses like the above, don't bitch about stereotypes and then chuck your own around.

Like the UK, in truth like the US, the French nuclear force is very, very unlikely to be used against a rogue state.
It would be after a nuclear blast, or attempted one, on your territory level of incident, maybe.

However, Chirac must be under domestic pressure to justify to justify France's still substantial investment in their nuclear forces.

Chad is such a good point, that is what really stopped Libya in it's tracks in the 1980's, not so much that US bombing.
It was a skilful, appropriate use of military forces, diplomatic pressure and cultivating allies in the region.
France provided substantial forces in 1991, for Desert Storm.
The fast, mobile, ATGM armed forces, created havoc on Saddam's flanks.

France is still at heart, a US ally, but just not a vassal.
Previous US administrations might have rolled their eyes from time to time, but still got on with things, not the current vindictive lot.

France has a judge who was put away more Islamic terrorists than anyone, all within the law.
They foiled a proto Sept 11th in 1994, (the hijacked A310 needed a fuel stop, before hitting Paris, so French Commandos did the rest).
Since it soon emerged what the terrorists ultimate objective was, how was the events 7 years later so unpredictable? Granted it was started internally-the bad guys learnt lessons sadly, but it was not unimaginable.

In 2000, a plot to bomb the Strasbourg Christmas Markets was foiled, through good intel, good policework.
The DGSE know more about Islamists than anyone.
They looked askance as their advice was not taken seriously pre Sept 11th, by the UK intel services, as well as by the US.


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3983 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days ago) and read 1340 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 22):
The DGSE know more about Islamists than anyone.

That is a fact that might be hard to swallow by many. In fact, they are one of the best intel services in the world...

...despite the occasional cock-up, like the killing of a Greenpeace photographer.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days ago) and read 1325 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 22):
France is still at heart, a US ally, but just not a vassal.
Previous US administrations might have rolled their eyes from time to time, but still got on with things, not the current vindictive lot.

Amen.

Riled me to no end, when Dubya's endless minions were nattering on about how he brought Gaddafi to the table, ignoring fully the primary role the French played.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13186 posts, RR: 77
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1323 times:

So we know what forces we are talking about, as well as a potted history of them;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_de_frappe


User currently offlineUsnseallt82 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 4891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1318 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
Big words are easy, big acts are hard.

I agree, but I don't think they are going to beat around the bush with this. France may have dropped the ball in the past, but they have every reason to take a strong stance now and I think they will follow through.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
I for one take the French threat seriously.

 checkmark 



Crye me a river
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1293 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 21):
Either stick to the topic or shut up, Klaus.

Take your hardon for everything and everyone in this country somewhere else where they appreciate your whinging and sniveling.

You have no arguments, so you resort to insults?  Yeah sure

Not that anybody was surprised - but this thread is about arguments, so either bring some to the table or keep listening. Okay?


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1280 times:

Much of the French - as well as the European press - believes that Chirac's sabre rattling was intended for one primary audience: the French military. Chirac's ratings among the French are in the toilet, the French military is pissed off at France's expenditure on nuclear weapons at the expense of its conventional weapons force, and Chirac had to show that this lop-sided expenditure was relevant. Erego, saber rattle your nukes at a potential terrorist nation (are you listening, Mr. Loudmouth Bore of an Iranian Prez?). Both Le Figaro (more left leaning) and Le Monde (more right leaning), as well as Le Parisien have condemned his comments. One of the other major French dailies went so far as to call him an idiot. Another called him a fool with a Napoleon complex.

What say you?


User currently offlineFrequentflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 736 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1271 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 28):
the French military is pissed off at France's expenditure on nuclear weapons at the expense of its conventional weapons force

I agree here. Hum, as funny as it might seem, you may also consider that the French Military felt uncomfortable not being a part of the coalition of the willing to attack Iraq in 03. They had succesfully participated in the 1st gulf war and had developed a great deal of interoperability + cooperation with the US army amongst others, and not participating in the 2nd attack frustrated them. The military in France is quite pro-US/NATO. Esp. the Navy. At the time, the deployed rapid armored vehicles coupled with the Legion Etrangere did impress quite a bit their foreign counterparts. The Jaguar pilots were qualified as daredevils by their USAF colleagues. As stated earlier, those guys had no mercy towards Saddam's flanks in 91.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 28):
Both Le Figaro (more left leaning) and Le Monde (more right leaning), as well as Le Parisien have condemned his comments. One of the other major French dailies went so far as to call him an idiot. Another called him a fool with a Napoleon complex.

It is the opposite Jay, Le Monde is center left, Figaro is right wing. And a Belgian newspaper called him an idiot still thinking he is in a Napoleonic era...



Take off and live
User currently offlineTheSorcerer From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 1048 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1265 times:

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 2):
Hey, one more nation on the list to get this idiot in Iran to quit being retarded. France may not be the most intimidating country, but at least they're finally pulling their heads out of their asses and getting with the program.

Any country with nukes is quite intimidating.
Different countries have different political views, just because their view is (was) different doesn't mean they had their head up their asses.
Dominic



ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1252 times:

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 29):
It is the opposite Jay, Le Monde is center left, Figaro is right wing.

Thank you.

My French being rather lousy, I only read Le Parisien. And, of course, Têtu.  Smile

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 29):
As stated earlier, those guys had no mercy towards Saddam's flanks in 91.

True.
But then, neither did anyone else. Conservative, liberal, black, white, French, Chinese, etc.

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 29):
Hum, as funny as it might seem, you may also consider that the French Military felt uncomfortable not being a part of the coalition of the willing to attack Iraq in 03.

I don't really buy that. I'm sure that at some level, the excitement of being on the frontlines is something that most trained military professionals would want. However, even the Economist once reported that surveys showed that a majority in the military forces of most NATO countries (with the exception of the UK) did not approve of the 2003 US-led Iraqi war.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1231 times:
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Quoting Jaysit (Reply 16):
I, for one, do believe that Iran will take the threat of French anger and distaste for its nuclear program seriously.

If the French are too pissed at you to keep talking even though you owe them lots of money then you have real problems....because they won't sit on the railroad tracks for you anymore.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 20):
Yes..it's Chad.....

I was in a hurry, but it's Chad and other issues with the Libyans that do not get often discussed here. I was witness to the action in Chad, and I heard first hand about the recent negotiations....which were complemented very well by the realization of the Libyans that the French were not going to be able to stop the US from acting unilaterally if they did act reasonable and take a very good deal.....then they tried to screw the French over the reparations for the Dakar bombing.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13186 posts, RR: 77
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1218 times:

Consider also that France, with the UK and Germany, spent a lot of diplolmatic effort cultivating, encouraging, moderate forces in Iran over several years.
(For UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, Iran is his most visited country, outside of the EU/NATO bloc anyhow).

But the moderates were also thought, by those lower down the economic scale in Iran, as corrupt.
Hence the election of that Armadinnerjacket or whatever he's
called.
Though the interference of the mullahs was also a factor.

This clown has seriously pissed off nations doing their best to encourage Iran away from confrotation with them since his election, but Chirac will want to make clear that being keen to try diplomacy never meant he and others were a soft touch.

It is true that the history of French nuclear forces has impacted on the conventional military.

But that is true of the UK as well.
1957 White Paper scrapping most combat aircraft was a result of A and H bomb development, V-Bomber, abortive Blue Streak IRBM projects.
Polaris might have impacted on CVA-01 carrier cancellation in 1966, though the design had problems, the navy's role was changing, the RAF lobbied hard against it, even with no Polaris subs, manning more than one CVA-01 seemed very difficult.
Finally, the cost of Trident was behind the severe naval cuts of 1981, though this led to encourage the Argentines a year later, they should have waited another year! Anyhow, that war caused most of the planned cuts to be reversed.

Despite a generally well equipped military, France does have some surprising gaps.
No medium lift chopper, like CH-53/CH-47.
No proper replacement for Super Frelon choppers, (hey, why not take some EH-101s? Replace the anti sub Super Frelons, the assault version will at least provide more lift than NH-90 as well?)
The 1970's cancellation of PA-75, a nuclear powered helicopter carrier/LPH.
A very poor area defence for the navy, (old SM-1 Standard, the even older French system, the UK's old, though combat proven and upgraded Sea Dart, look ultra modern by comparison, though both Navies are replacing with the PAAMS system).
No doubt some in the French forces put the delays, number reductions, of Rafale, NH-90, Tiger down to nuclear force spending, though the Cold War ending was as much or more of a factor.
The long delay in complementing the CDG carrier, now it seems an adoption for CTOL ops, of the UK CVF is favorite, a decade hence.
Also selling one of the older French carriers to Brazil, so it was clearly good for years yet.

But French expenditure is on the rise, they seem to be copying the UK in focusing almost totally on out of area, I reckon once the new generation of French SLBM's are in service, nuclear spending will drop heavily.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1106 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Not that anybody was surprised - but this thread is about arguments, so either bring some to the table or keep listening. Okay?

So you say. But take a gander at the original post. Here it is

Quoting Dougloid (Thread starter):
French Rattle Nuclear Sabers-Iran Unimpressed?
USER PROFILESEND INSTANT MSGADD TO RESP USERSSUGGEST DELETIONQUOTE SELECTED TEXT

Dougloid From United States, joined Jul 2005, 978 posts, RR: 3
Posted Fri Jan 20 2006 01:54:23 UTC+1 and read 506 times:

Here's something from Der Spiegel that's interesting.

About time the French decided to kick ass and take names. It's easy when you get the hang of it.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/inte....html

That seems to suggest that you are wrong about what this thread is about.

Its not about arguments or any of the stuff you seem to get sidetracked in so often.

It's about French nukes and a piece in Der Spiegel. You have heard of Der Spiegel I suppose?

However, if, as I suspect, what you want is to steer the discussion in another direction I'll see you and raise you.


User currently offlineIceTitan447 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 25, posted (8 years 7 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1078 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Thread starter):
About time the French decided to kick ass and take names.

Israel will get em first, you'll see.


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