Brendan03 From Australia, joined Aug 2005, 951 posts, RR: 3 Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2482 times:
Rubbish, Okay so It's kinda average compared to New Zealand and all the many other nations with the Union Jack up in the top corner but I'm proud of my flag! I'd not have it any other way! - It's our identity... If the world doesn't like it they can go shove their heads somewhere dark...
Kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8442 posts, RR: 14 Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2480 times:
My thoughts ? I think you have broken the SMH website ... I cant bring the link up ... or their home page .
If it is an article about needing a new flag I wholeheartedly agree that it is about time Australia ( and New Zealand ) had proper flags of their own instead of 'made over' versions of the British Blue Ensign .... just ask the Canadians who made the change from a dull 'colonial' flag to one of the most instantly recognisable flags over 40 years ago .
edited to add : perhaps the article upset John Howard and he has had the SMH permanently shut down under his new anti-free speech ( ooops , I mean anti-terror ) laws ?
[Edited 2006-01-28 09:27:57]
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
Cosec59 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2462 times:
It seems to me that the unpopularity has to do with it's ties to the UK and Australian's wish to sever those ties.
I will be down there in a few weeks and hope to get the same warm welcome as I have on my past visits
QANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2445 times:
I'm worried some of you are missing the point. lol
The article is not about what other countries think of the Australian flag, it's what Australians think of it. The Australian flag is the most unpopular national flag within its own country. That's one of the article's main points.
Kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8442 posts, RR: 14 Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2442 times:
Thanks for posting the article .. I just could not get the damned thing open .
I think it has some very valid points ... most of which could equally be applied to my home , New Zealand , as well .
In both cases the flag excludes that increasingly large proportion of both countries populations who are of non-British descent - it may seem a small thing , but in times of tension anything that leads to a sizeable proportion of your citizens feeling somehow alienated is a dangerous thing.
In both case the flags are.... well, dull and anonymous... nobody in the rest of the world looks at an Aussie or Kiwi flag and immediately identifies it with the country in the way that people instantly think "Canada" on seeing the Maple Leaf or "South Africa" with their unique flag . How can our own citizens be expected to identify with something so lacking in Australian ( or in my case , New Zealand ) content .
I will probably be disowned by my father ( the proud owner of an NZ flag bumper sticker with the words "keep it this way" ) but the truth is that it is time for both countries to move on and create their own identities .
[Edited 2006-01-28 09:46:51]
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
I couldn't agree more. The issue isn't about liking the UK or not, it is whether it is appropriate for Australia's (and New Zealand's, where the same debate is going on) national flag to place another nation's flag in the 'pride of place' canton position.
I for one believe both countries should have new flags which reflect their staus as independent countries with their own unique identities. It has worked very well for Canada, which changed from a defaced Red Ensign to the Maple Leaf flag in the 1965 - there is no reason it shouldn't work well here.
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
WhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2409 times:
Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 9): I for one believe both countries should have new flags which reflect their staus as independent countries with their own unique identities. It has worked very well for Canada, which changed from a defaced Red Ensign to the Maple Leaf flag in the 1965 - there is no reason it shouldn't work well here.
a flag should reflect national identity, like the South African one does. That is a truly beautiful modern flag. Their previous one still harked back to Dutch Protestant origins and needed to be changed when South Africa changed.
ClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4579 posts, RR: 24 Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2381 times:
To throw a spanner in the works...
I have always been a person who has been content to keep the flag as it is. People fought in wars under that flag, and from a historical perspective I've always felt it would be "disrespect" to those who fought under that flag to change it. It's an incredibly big deal to change the flag of your nation. I see the flag in foreign countries and have a big grin on my face - "That's my country, and they have our flag here!" - it's a wonderful feeling.
The designs in the last flag competition were crap. I don't want a crap flag. I want a beautiful flag I can be proud of. I would like elements from our current flag and the aboriginal flag. How?
Perhaps black over red, with the Southern Cross and Federation Star (is that what it is?) in yellow. I'd accept that. The last flag competition with the mentions of green and gold (spew) or boxing kangaroos (hurl) in the flag, is just not going to get my vote.
P.S. QFF, why don't we get rid of Queen Liz and the GG, and have the spawn of Princess Mary become the Monarch of Australia in a purely ceremonial role? Countries with Monarchies are more well known in the International arena - good for tourism. Palace in Adelaide Maybe I'll save that for another topic.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
QANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2372 times:
Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 12): People fought in wars under that flag, and from a historical perspective I've always felt it would be "disrespect" to those who fought under that flag to change it.
Who fought in wars under that flag?
You do realise its only been our national flag since the 1950s. We had Korea - which was under the flag of the UN, Vietnam, East Timor, and the Gulf Wars. In none of those wars was the flag ever carried into battle - and nobody has ever "died" under the flag.
If the only reason why you're keeping the flag is out of respect to those who gave themselves in war, perhaps you should remember that the reason they were doing that (in some cases) was to give us the freedom to choose our nation's future. I also think it's highly disrespectful to suggest anyone fought for the flag. A flag is a piece of cloth, a symbolic representation of the country. Soldiers die for what their country represents, not for symbols. Let's at least treasure their contribution with that respect.
Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 12): Countries with Monarchies are more well known in the International arena - good for tourism.
Oh yeah. Of course who's ever heard of a little country called the United States of America, or even India, China, Germany, or France for that matter. I hear those places also suffer major problems getting tourists to visit - the French capital especially.
Nope, had no idea. What were we using before as our piece of cloth? Why was it changed in the 1950s? Give me some background. Says a lot for the teaching in Australian schools about Australia, doesn't it? We went from First Fleet and Eureka Stockade to international history and goodbye Australia.
Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 13): Boy, you've sure given the issue a lot of thought. Are you by any chance related to a prominent Sydney family with interests in aged care?
*laughs* No, I'm not. Nor have I given the issue a lot of thought. Why on earth would I? I'm an Australian, that's the flag, and that's it. If people such as yourself wish to change it, go ahead and build up the momentum to do so. I'll vote for whether to change it or not and vote on a design.
I commend you for your opinions, but it would be pleasing if you showed me some respect - in that I mean, you tore apart the things you didn't like and ignored the rest of my post. Not that I take it personally, I quite enjoy the occasional exchange with you!
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
Gman94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 1239 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2331 times:
Oh good it's the old Union Jack is racist symbol argument, it's not like we've had this from the politically correct idiots over here. A right wing group who uses the flag for their own means does not make the whole symbol of the flag racist, change your flag for the right reasons not because a PC idiot tries to make gains for his viewpoint by telling you it's racist.
Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 12): have always been a person who has been content to keep the flag as it is. People fought in wars under that flag, and from a historical perspective I've always felt it would be "disrespect" to those who fought under that flag to change it. It's an incredibly big deal to change the flag of your nation. I see the flag in foreign countries and have a big grin on my face - "That's my country, and they have our flag here!" - it's a wonderful feeling.
I think that argument is complete nonsense. If you look back at the history of the old British Empire then probably the most loyal to Britain country was Canada. The country was set up by people loyal to Britain after the American Revolution. Citizens from Canada fought in both world wars under the old ensign and they still remember their fallen under the Maple Leaf. Having been in Canada a number times during the Remembrance Sunday services they haven't diminished in relevance just because a different flag is flying on the pole.
I'm sure Anzac Day will still be remembered and the fallen honoured under a different flag. (Do Australians hold services on Remembrance Sunday as well or are your services held just on Anzac Day?)
ClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4579 posts, RR: 24 Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2318 times:
Quoting Gman94 (Reply 18): I'm sure Anzac Day will still be remembered and the fallen honoured under a different flag. (Do Australians hold services on Remembrance Sunday as well or are your services held just on Anzac Day?)
Just Anzac Day on 25 April.
My argument may have been pure nonsense, but that is in your opinion. It's how I've thought for most of my life. Anyone is welcome to give me information that may help change my point of view. That 1950s comment for starters got me thinking.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
VH-KCT* From Australia, joined May 2001, 479 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2309 times:
Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 13): Just as you wouldn't hear any arguments in favour of changing the flag from Alan Jones.
Don't use the Alan Jones example again. For the very last time - I'm from Melbourne, I've never listened to Alan Jones, and I know very little of him except that he has very hard-line views that would never be allowed to be broadcast in Melbourne - the aggressive parochial culture that exists in Sydney is not indicitive of the rest of the country (although Sydney-siders seem either reluctant or incapable of considering the existence of Australia outside it's own sprawling borders).
A flag can represent whatever you want it to. Here, in a publication that is dominated by the "shame, Australia culture" we have another elite preacher pushing the line that the Australian flag stands for racism and xenophobia. It's not as if this crap hasn't been published a million times before in this and The Age - just replace flag with John Howard, the Government, Phillip Ruddock, any other Liberal Politician you care, immigration policy, environmental policy, foreign policy etc.
The flag stands for all Australians, it carries the Federation Star - the seven points representing the colonies that came together to form the nation (for which we are told to be shameful), it carries the Southern Cross, which has come to represent Australia and it's neighbours, and yes, it carries the Union Jack (hang your heads in shame) for which we owe a great part of our (shameful) history. (No doubt you will tell me that the UK played a very minor part in our history, and that it's role is severly overstated by white supremisists who are bent on oppressing minorities and spreading hate) but I would think it would be very difficult for you to pass off the involvement of Britain as un-noteworthy.
Finally, I am sick to death of the Cronulla Riots being brought into every argument about racism. For goodness sake, this was an isolated incident. That's right - isolated. From a population of 20 million, just how many fools were involved in the riots? A couple of hundred? Maybe a thousand? And in how many cities and towns were these idiots? That's right - one! Not ten, not two, but one.
But the "shame, Australia culture" jumps all over it, because here is their proof, finally, that we're all racists. The kind of "thinkers" who write for publications such as The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age are those who have battled for years to prove to us all that we're racists, and they've sucked up every last remnant of that one isolated day and run with it for months because finally they can put into evidence the proof that every last one of us is of a racist mind and culture.
Banco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 54 Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2295 times:
Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 5): This has nothing to do with the UK - it's entirely a domestic issue.
Actually, although you are correct in that it shouldn't have anything to do with the UK, it does if people start to say that the flag has a racist element because of the Union Flag in the corner. Whether that's because of Australian history or otherwise, once the subject veers on to that, then it becomes an issue of importance to us, because we then can object to our flag appearing in yours.
You see, at that point, people aren't denigrating the Australian flag, they're denigrating the British one. At that point it does become our business, even though the whole question of what is the best flag for Australia shouldn't be - and needn't be.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
QANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2290 times:
Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 17): Why on earth would I? I'm an Australian, that's the flag, and that's it
Am I to assume that you've *never* questioned any of the symbols or institutions that constitute the Australian nation?
What on earth did they teach you in school?
Okay, here's our history lesson for the day.
After federation in January 1901, the Australian government went about organising a competition for a national flag (rules out the Boer War then Classiclover). Over 32,000 entires were received - and let me tell you, comparatively we got lucky. Five almost identical entries were chosen as the winning design, and their designers shared the 200 pounds prize money. They were: Ivor Evans, a fourteen-year-old schoolboy from Melbourne; Leslie John Hawkins, a teenager apprenticed to an optician from Sydney; Egbert John Nuttall, an architect from Melbourne; Annie Dorrington, an artist from Perth; and William Stevens, a ship’s officer from Auckland, New Zealand.
In 1901 in response to the result of the competition, the fiercely Republican newsletter The Bulletin (how times have changed) wrote:
...a staled réchauffé of the British flag, with no artistic virtue, no national significance... Minds move slowly: and Australia is still Britain's little boy. What more natural than that he should accept his father's cut-down garments, - lacking the power to protest, and only dimly realising his will. That bastard flag is a true symbol of the bastard state of Australian opinion.
Two versions were produced - a red ensign and a blue ensign. The blue was used for official government use, while the red was used by the general public and on merchant vessels.
In 1908 the British admiralty altered the flag, changing the layout of the stars in the southern cross. To settle the confusion caused by this alteration, the Australian government published a definitive layout of the flag in 1934 (that's the first world war gone, Classiclover).
Over the 1940's the Australian government encouraged use of the Blue ensign over the union flag and the red ensign as the national flag. It was not until the flags act of 1953 (the first piece of Australian legislation signed in Australia by the sovereign) that the Australian flag was officially recognised as the national flag (there goes WWII).
By the 1950s the era of soldiers riding into war, flag in tow was well and truly over. I daresay carrying a bloody great flag around the jungles of Vietnam and over the skies of North Korea would prove dangerous and inefficient.
So there you have it. The Australian national flag has been the national flag for only 53 years.
Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 17): If people such as yourself wish to change it, go ahead and build up the momentum to do so.
People such as myself? Australian people? We don't mind if we do. And I daresay it's looking more and more like the momentum is there.
QANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2283 times:
Quoting Banco (Reply 21): it does if people start to say that the flag has a racist element because of the Union Flag in the corner.
I agree to a point. I think most racist connotations have come about as a result of the behaviour of Australian white supermacists as opposed to anything the British ever did. That's essentially what that article has said - that aside from any historic meaning the Union flag has, it has been bastardised and hijacked by certain unsavoury characters. By all means object to your flag being a tool of racist forces in this country, but don't expect much sympathy if you get stuck into denying or downplaying atrocities committed by the British against indigenous people (to use one example).
YOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4830 posts, RR: 16 Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2275 times:
Quoting Brendan03 (Reply 1): Rubbish, Okay so It's kinda average compared to New Zealand and all the many other nations with the Union Jack up in the top corner but I'm proud of my flag! I'd not have it any other way! - It's our identity... If the world doesn't like it they can go shove their heads somewhere dark...
I was under the impression the survey was done per country, so it's Australians who like it less...
Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 6): Who cares? Everybody knows none of the countries in the world can top Libya's flag...nothing comes close.
Yeah it is quite the masterpiece. Guess Betsy Ross had that day off.
Canada's flag is not very old at all and has become very recognizeable. I think it would be nice for Australia, NZ, Fiji and all the other flags bearing the union jack to make new iconic pieces of their own. I'd imaine most people can't even tell the Aussie and Kiwi flags, apart.
I remember reading an interview with some smug POM aristrocrat and he was asked how he felt about Australia doing so well at the olympics. His reply was along the lines of "every time there flag goes up, our is right up there too." (relating to raising flags during anthems.)
I'd like to see Australia go with something in their green and gold, great colours. As for the kiwis well that's going to be black
All that said this may never happen. After all the province I live in here in Canada has a union jack on it
12A whenever possible.
25 VirginFlyer: Would that be the same Sydney Morning Herald that publishes Miranda Divine and Gerard Henderson, or are you thinking about a different one? Really, u
26 QANTASforever: I don't really agree with that analogy. The Christian cross is a symbol that has the support of the overwhealming majority of Christians and is a spi
27 VirginFlyer: And the argument of 'people fought under it' complements the case for keeping the flag. They are both distractions from the real issue of what makes
28 QANTASforever: I like the Turnbullian reference, but I think there's a greater possibility of the pro-change movement becoming split over a choice of two designs fo
29 Kiwiandrew: a few years ago a small rural post office in New Zealand created quite a stir when they flew an Australian flag by mistake ... though it did take a w