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Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)  
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8702 posts, RR: 43
Posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1831 times:

With all the rah-rah going on about "the Danish disrespecting Islam" and "the Arab World being immature", I'd like to remind everyone we really need to differentiate (or keep doing so) between extremists and moderates, especially when Muslims are concerned.

There are some extremists who instigate flag burnings, boycotts and violent riots - but there are far more moderate Muslims who are playing the role of "silent majority", probably watching the rioting in disbelief just like most Europeans and Americans do. I guess they're silent because they are actually annoyed by the cartoons and don't see a reason to oppose protesters.

On the other hand, many people in Denmark, Europe and other nations have criticised the original cartoons for being an untimely and inadequate publication, myself included - but they were no more than 12 drawings in one newspaper. They do not represent Denmark, they do not represent all that people think about Islam and they certainly do not represent any government's stance.

So please: remember we're watching a battle fought by minorities, most Muslims are no flag-burners, most Danes have (probably) never even read Jylland's Posten.




Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1825 times:

Quoting Aloges (Thread starter):
we're watching a battle fought by minorities, most Muslims are no flag-burners,

Two things come to mind,

1. Look at the videos on CNN, sure looks like a lot of people are taking part.

2. Where are the moderates who will condem these action? Anyone? Anyone?


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1804 times:

No, the burning of the embassies was done by only a few hundred hooligans, not a lot of people.

The syrian police merely looking on and not doing anything - that is what makes this a diplomatic affront. "Even" democracies protect foreign embassies; It is inconceivable that an autocratic regime like the syrian one wouldn't be able to, especially with police in riot gear being present at the scene!

This should definitely have consequences - not just bilaterally, but also with the entire EU behind Denmark in this matter!


User currently offlineMr Spaceman From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 2787 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1799 times:

Hi guys.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
1. Look at the videos on CNN, sure looks like a lot of people are taking part.

Yeah, even the innocent little children are taking part! Some Muslims are making their very young kids burn Danish flags for the cameras. They're only about 5 years old without a clue!

It's to bad these Muslim Extremists ever became parents. They are nothing but "Extremely Pathetic!"


Chris  Smile



"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1772 times:

Quoting Mr Spaceman (Reply 3):
They are nothing but "Extremely Pathetic!"

I would agree 100%. There are ways to protest the cartoons if you feel the need, burning buildings and possibly killing people will do nothing but solidify the views of people that Muslims resort to this kind of violence. Personally I know many muslims, these extremeist groups are not representative, although they are the ones that are constantly reported and getting attention.

- Neil


User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3079 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1769 times:

Lately i am not sure there is much difference.....When they get fired up they seem to mob up and go crazy. How do we looking into the world tell the difference?

GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1760 times:

Quoting Mr Spaceman (Reply 3):
It's to bad these Muslim Extremists ever became parents. They are nothing but "Extremely Pathetic!"

 checkmark 


User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4870 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1755 times:

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 5):
Lately i am not sure there is much difference.....When they get fired up they seem to mob up and go crazy. How do we looking into the world tell the difference?

Since they are all so crazy, and so unreasonable and so wrong and we in the west are so right and so noble and gallant maybe we should stop taking their oil  Yeah sure Give me a break.


YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1742 times:
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The difference between a moderate and an extremist is probably not the most important thing. What's really troubling is that the majority of the muslim population seems to be cowed by the extremists and unwilling to take a stand against them. It appears that they feel it's easier to accomodate than it is to stamp out the extremist violence, because they don't want the attention to turn on them. An institutional lack of gumption is what I'm thinking is the problem. It's easy to demonstrate against far away people, not so easy to tell the nutcases next door that they are acting like psychos and that it won't be tolerated any more.

THe only other option is to believe that the "silent majority" support the actions of the terrorists and extremists.

Quoting Aloges (Thread starter):
I guess they're silent because they are actually annoyed by the cartoons and don't see a reason to oppose protesters.

And that supports the second option, which I'd rather not have to accept as truth. There is no excuse for allowing such actions.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
1. Look at the videos on CNN, sure looks like a lot of people are taking part.

2. Where are the moderates who will condem these action? Anyone? Anyone?

Damn good question.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
No, the burning of the embassies was done by only a few hundred hooligans, not a lot of people.

Actually reports indicate there were thousands of them, and I'm certain the government was complicit in the actions since they are under fire and looking to draw attention away from their own duplicitous actions that are causing the Syrian people trouble.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineLogan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1742 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 7):
maybe we should stop taking their oil

I'm all for that. Maybe we can have fair market trade in the west for innovative fuels. Then we won't have to read threads about Exxon making $10 Billion last quarter. Smart people who can innovate may actually get paid for something. What a concept!


User currently offlineNordair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1735 times:

I know many Muslims and although only one of them was not offended by the cartoons, all of them are revulsed by what happened in Syria.

The maniacal may or may not be in the majority worldwide, but they are the ones who get the attention. And that is what they want, of course. But, one cannot paint all Muslims with the same brush.


User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1732 times:

Maybe the majority is silent because the minority has the guns?

User currently offlineNordair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1729 times:

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 11):
Maybe the majority is silent because the minority has the guns?

Summed up quite nicely.
 thumbsup 


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1696 times:

What disturbs me most -

With the few exceptions I've seen on A-Net, I don't see any moderate Islamist groups/persons/organization condemning these extremist actions. That, in my view, makes the "moderates" just as extreme.

They are tacetly condoning this activity by their inaction.

Unacceptable.



User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4870 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1688 times:

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 9):
I'm all for that. Maybe we can have fair market trade in the west for innovative fuels. Then we won't have to read threads about Exxon making $10 Billion last quarter. Smart people who can innovate may actually get paid for something. What a concept!

Wow we agree on something. Good start.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineStuckinMAF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1677 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
That, in my view, makes the "moderates" just as extreme.

 checkmark 
"You're either with us, or you're against us".
And I haven't seen very many of them with us.


User currently offlineNordair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1672 times:

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 15):
"You're either with us, or you're against us".

How brilliant.
 Yeah sure


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1634 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
Actually reports indicate there were thousands of them,

Not according to the pictures I've seen. There was a crowd immediately around the embassies, but the streets behind them were empty.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
and I'm certain the government was complicit in the actions since they are under fire and looking to draw attention away from their own duplicitous actions that are causing the Syrian people trouble.

It was certainly obvious that the police didn't even try to protect the embassies.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8549 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1623 times:
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for goodness sakes , there are hundreds of millions of Muslims in the world , and we have seen the (over) reaction of several thousand on TV , that is not a basis on which to decide that 'all' muslims are extremists any more than we should assume that all of the hundreds of millions of Christians in the world are extremists based on the posts of some hard core lunatic Christians here on Anet .

While my own personal feeling is that I would prefer a world free from all religion I have to accept that the vast majority of participants in all religions are just getting on quietly with their lives and causing no harm to me or to anyone else .

The business with the cartoons was rather childish and irresponsible and the over reaction is equally immature ... but what is scarier is the way that many people on both 'sides' seem to actually want to escalate the tensions with wild claims about the 'other side' . It doesn't help anyone to whip up hysteria at either end .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineN229NW From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1945 posts, RR: 32
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1605 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
Where are the moderates who will condem these action? Anyone? Anyone?



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
With the few exceptions I've seen on A-Net, I don't see any moderate Islamist groups/persons/organization condemning these extremist actions. That, in my view, makes the "moderates" just as extreme.

How about EVERY major Muslim organization in the UK, for starters? (and I'm sure most other places too...why do people keep ignoring all thse condemnations?) Do they just not want to see them?

Again I say, we are angry at people for blaming a whole country/continent for the actions of one or a few newspapers. Don't make the same mistake in the other direction: don't demand an apology from people who have nothing to do with the crimes!

Finally, as for certain countries in the Middle East, there is some of the same mentality that bullies people into "supporting our president" here. You have the militant groups attacking moderates who speak out as divisive traitors showing weakness to the enemy. Sound familiar from the American right? Well, in dictatorships it works even better...



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1600 times:

Quoting N229NW (Reply 19):
How about EVERY major Muslim organization in the UK, for starters? (and I'm sure most other places too...why do people keep ignoring all thse condemnations?) Do they just not want to see them?

Agreed. And if you see them being interviewed about it, they are getting quite angry about the extremists. We MUST separate the reality from the perception, or it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1587 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 20):
Quoting N229NW (Reply 19):
How about EVERY major Muslim organization in the UK, for starters? (and I'm sure most other places too...why do people keep ignoring all thse condemnations?) Do they just not want to see them?

Agreed. And if you see them being interviewed about it, they are getting quite angry about the extremists. We MUST separate the reality from the perception, or it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Understood . . . and what are they doing about it? Interviews on the telly? Are they not policing their own? Condemnation is fine; it's necessary. It's not solving the problem . . . .


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1577 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Understood . . . and what are they doing about it? Interviews on the telly? Are they not policing their own? Condemnation is fine; it's necessary. It's not solving the problem . . . .

What would you suggest they do? It's not a discrete society, any more than the rest of the UK is. If a load of white kids go down the High Street smashing up shops does that mean I am not "policing my own"? It isn't a single ethnic or racial group in the UK, any more than the Christians are. The idea that "community leaders" (and what a daft expression that is) can do any more than go on to the media and plea for calm is absurd.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineMigfan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1577 times:

Go Denmark!



User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8549 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1576 times:
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Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Understood . . . and what are they doing about it? Interviews on the telly? Are they not policing their own? Condemnation is fine; it's necessary. It's not solving the problem . . . .

so please explain what else you want them to do about it


I am also confused what you mean about "Are they not policing their own?" - how are they responsible for the actions of other people ( actions they have already condemned ) . when extreme Christians firebomb abortion clinics and normal Christians condemn the actions would you then demand that the normal Christians then go out and do something about it rather than just issuing condemnations



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
25 N229NW : Yes...it is only sad that the people who have already decided they hate the whole religion will not register this. They will just keep screaming "whe
26 ANCFlyer : That's assinine . . . throwing gasoline on an out of control fire. But they expect him to apologize? Ridiculous. I can tell you the names of a few pe
27 Post contains images N229NW : Er...that was my point
28 AerorobNZ : as I know this is regarding me I will answer Rubbish. I would never do anything more than wear an 'offensive' T shirt just cos I felt like it - I am
29 QR332 : With us or against us.... America's solution to all the world's problems. Just because we aren't with you doesn't mean we aren't against "them". I am
30 AerorobNZ : provided they stay within the parameters of the law, or are prepared for prosecution because of their actions I agree absolutely. more Apathy towards
31 SATX : Unfortunately that often appears to be all too true. Many Americans do indeed see the world in black-and-white. We support those who look like us, ig
32 Legend500 : For anyone listening to Iran's latest sabre-rattling, they seem to be threatening to do just that... There are also a great many Americans who see th
33 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Not necessary . . . . just sneak into someplace and blow something up . . . . not necessary to invade an entire country . . . . just wait for the rig
34 Jacobin777 : couldn't agree with you more...... there's nothing confusing...its about as ignorant and crass of a comment as you can get...how are you going to rep
35 Kiwiandrew : I still dont see is what you mean by this ... a large number of muslim groups have publicly condemned the extremists (though of course the media dont
36 Post contains images ANCFlyer : I know that . . . . Isn't that the truth . . . no story in that is there. Let's just use Syria for an example . . . the Syrian police stood by while
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