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Baseball Out Of 2012 Olympics - Why?  
User currently offlinePbottenb From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 431 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3386 times:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...09/softball.baseball.ap/index.html

"TURIN, Italy (AP) -- Don't worry. Synchronized swimming, trampoline and rhythmic gymnastics are safe. Baseball and softball? Sorry, they're out for the 2012 Olympics.

Dropped from the London Games seven months ago, women's softball and baseball got a second chance Thursday to make a case for reinstatement. The result, though, was the same: The European-dominated International Olympic Committee rejected pleas from two very traditional American sports.

"I am shocked and deeply disappointed," said Dot Richardson, a two-time Olympic gold medalist in softball. "It's a shame that politics between nations will affect in a negative way the future dreams of young girls and young women."


OK - They claim that its anti-Americanism...Is it? Or is baseball really just a niche sport (more of a niche than trampoline jumping).

I wish the IOC would have reinstated both sports...

PB

89 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFutureUALpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3375 times:

Quoting Pbottenb (Thread starter):
I wish the IOC would have reinstated both sports...

 checkmark 


This is very disappointing, as I have always loved watching Olympic Baseball, it is a true World Series. I hope it will be brought back for the 2016 games.



Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3375 times:

Quoting Pbottenb (Thread starter):
rejected pleas from two very traditional American sports.

Precisely the point (although baseball is actually English  Wink ).

Quoting Pbottenb (Thread starter):
Or is baseball really just a niche sport

Not in the US. But everywhere else, yes.

The question of the number of daft sports in the Olympics is a valid one, but including baseball is insane. Why baseball ahead of vastly more inernational games like cricket and rugby? At least in those two sports it wouldn't be bleedin' obvious who the gold medal would go to.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4917 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3375 times:

Outside of the US and Latin America, there is very little interest in baseball anywhere.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3369 times:

Well, two things.

1. The Olympic Committee has been seen to be anti-American in several recent decisions.

2. Baseball is only played in a relatively few countries, as a matter of fact only 16 nations are sending teams to the World Baseball Classic this year.

It's something of a conundrum for international play. Every nation in Central America, North America, the Caribbean (technically North America) and a couple in Asia play baseball, but that's it. It's tough to justify that when most nations don't play.

I am wondering why the Italian team for the WBC has so many US natives onboard, but then I'm not that worried about it.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3363 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 4):
the Caribbean

I think you'll find cricket is absolutely miles ahead of baseball in the Caribbean.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3360 times:

Oh, one other thing:

When you don't get your own way on something, throwing your toys out of your pram, stamping your feet and shouting that everyone else is anti-American is really childish.

The fact that baseball somehow got in the Olympics in the first place, to the disbelief of virtually the whole world, should suggest the opposite.

Sometimes others disagree with you. Live with it.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3351 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 3):
Outside of the US and Latin America, there is very little interest in baseball anywhere.

Don't forget Japan.


User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5426 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3346 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 7):
Don't forget Japan.

And burgeoning interest in Australia (see the rise in Aussie players in the US minor leagues), Taiwan, and South Korea.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13200 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3343 times:

It is a shame that Men's Baseball has been dropped for 2012. While the game is practically non-existant in Europe, it is played at Professional levels not only in the USA and Canada, but also Japan, Korea, Venezula, Domnican Republic, Mexico, Cuba and others, all of which are substantial countries. This also ingnores that the largest chunk of the money to run the IOC comes from the USA's TV Networks (NBC for now). This sport is booted while ones favored by relatively small numbers of countries remain. Perhaps instead of booting Baseball, they should end any sport that involved a gun or rifle as they promote violence, military power and so on. That would be a statement of 'peace' that the Olympics should persue.

User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3334 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
it is played at Professional levels not only in the USA and Canada, but also Japan, Korea, Venezula, Domnican Republic, Mexico, Cuba and others

Cricket: Played at full international (i.e. not just one big country and few others tagging along) professional level in

England, India, Australia, Pakistan, New Zealand, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, South Africa, Zimbabwe, virtually all of the West Indies who perform as a unified team; plus numerous countries with affiliate status such as the USA (yes, shock horror, you even play it to the same degree as all those others play baseball).

Not in the Olympics.

Rugby:

England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France, Italy, Argentina, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Australia, Manu Samoa, plus USA, Canada, Romania, Georgia, Uruguay et al.

Not in the Olympics.

Stop whingeing.  Yeah sure



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineErikwilliam From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3332 times:

Quoting Pbottenb (Thread starter):
Baseball Out Of 2012 Olympics - Why?

Because it´s a boring sport.



Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
User currently offlineLewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3678 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3309 times:

Because its not very polular outside N.America and a few other countries. Plus, countries organising the Olympics can save money by not building venues for such sports. Softball and baseball venues built in Athens for the 2004 Olympics will never see any use and its a pitty that they might get torn down.

User currently offlineWellHung From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3295 times:

Because they had to make room for brilliant 'International' action such as...

Archery
Badminton
Flatwater Canoeing
Slalom Canoeing
Fencing
Rhythmic Gymnastics
Trampoline Gymnastics
Modern Pentathlon
Table Tennis (PING PONG!)

[Edited 2006-02-10 18:32:01]

User currently offlinePbottenb From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 431 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3285 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 6):
When you don't get your own way on something, throwing your toys out of your pram, stamping your feet and shouting that everyone else is anti-American is really childish.

The fact that baseball somehow got in the Olympics in the first place, to the disbelief of virtually the whole world, should suggest the opposite.

Sometimes others disagree with you. Live with it.

Wow - quite a post here...sounds like you have some anger...

Are you saying that the vote was not anti-American? Or are you saying that we deserve it?

One interesting note is that Softball was voted out on a TIE, with one abstention, I believe that the IOC could easily have considered this, approved softball at least and retained their credibility.

Anyway, I'll bet you that more people play and watch baseball and softball on a regular basis than cricket, rugby, synchronized gymnastics and trampoline COMBINED...Heck the LA Angels baseball team had over 3 MILLION people attend home games last year..and 3/4 of their team is made up of Latin Americans (Vlade Guerrero rocks!) That, my friend is THE definition of an international sport - So, in my opinion it should be an olympic sport...


User currently offlineCamAir From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3285 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 4):
1. The Olympic Committee has been seen to be anti-American in several recent decisions.

you think so? I mean you are right in your survey to say that only several countries actually play baseball. However, I think the IOC has rather been biased pro-West: Why not Cricket? Why not Bush sports to promote sports in developing countries and promote real development?

They are so much nonsense events that only earmark Gold Medals for the West. I think it is time to achieve an equilibrium and to promote the disciplines of "other countries".. hence, baseball should be replaced with cricket, and, as WellHung implies, PingPong with something which is in Western eyes "exotic and no real sport"  Smile


User currently offlinePbottenb From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 431 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3278 times:

Quoting Lewis (Reply 12):
Because its not very polular outside N.America and a few other countries. Plus, countries organising the Olympics can save money by not building venues for such sports. Softball and baseball venues built in Athens for the 2004 Olympics will never see any use and its a pitty that they might get torn down.

Yeah, baseball was the big problem with the athens olympics...NOT

Here in LA we still have the indoor bycycling venues that hardly ever get used...they werent cheap...using your logic we should ban any sport that requires its own specialized stadium.......good one...


User currently offlineCamAir From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3274 times:

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 14):
Are you saying that the vote was not anti-American? Or are you saying that we deserve it?

Banco is right. It has NOTHING to do with anti-American. to explain a personaö defeat with anti-Americanism and to distract from real reasons is inappropriate!

Tomorrow, if the UN votes against a US resolution, you will say that the International community is anit-American!

[Edited 2006-02-10 18:32:59]

User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3265 times:

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 14):
Wow - quite a post here...sounds like you have some anger...

The whole point of the complaint is ridiculous. There are no grounds for its inclusion in an international sporting festival because only about two countries play the game with any seriousness. How hard is that to grasp? What is the point of having it?

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 14):
Anyway, I'll bet you that more people play and watch baseball and softball on a regular basis than cricket, rugby, synchronized gymnastics and trampoline COMBINED...

That post is more stupid than I can believe. If you think that you really have no clue at all. Why don't you go to India and ask the 1 billion people, in a nation of cricket fanatics, what they think.

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 14):
Heck the LA Angels baseball team had over 3 MILLION people attend home games last year..and 3/4 of their team is made up of Latin Americans (Vlade Guerrero rocks!) That, my friend is THE definition of an international sport

ROTFL. you haven't a clue, have you? So because an American team consists of some Latin Americans, who are, presumably mostly still US citizens, that's international sport?  Yeah sure

My mistake. There was me thinking that international sport consisted of countries being able to play each other.  Yeah sure

Quoting CamAir (Reply 15):
, I think the IOC has rather been biased pro-West

Yep. I think that's true.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineCamAir From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3258 times:

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 14):
Heck the LA Angels baseball team had over 3 MILLION people attend home games last year..and 3/4 of their team is made up of Latin Americans (Vlade Guerrero rocks!) That, my friend is THE definition of an international

And more than a billion people followed the India-Pakistan Cricket Series  sarcastic 


User currently offlinePbottenb From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 431 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3252 times:

Quoting CamAir (Reply 19):
And more than a billion people followed the India-Pakistan Cricket Series

Same could be said for the US MLB World Series or the Super Bowl for that matter...your point?


User currently offlineCamAir From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3241 times:

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 20):
your point?

Point being: look beyond your borders and your personal world order  Wink - there are almost 200 other nations with their preferences.. and the omission of baseball does not stand for anti-Americanism but for a sport that does not really interest many people apart from a dozen of nations  Smile


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29836 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3241 times:

Quoting Pbottenb (Thread starter):
Or is baseball really just a niche sport (more of a niche than trampoline jumping).

I don't see it that way, but if I had my choice they would get rid of any event that requires a judge to score. To be a sport the winner needs to be decided by a tangable score, points total or time.

Also get rid of the equestrian events....unless you want to add dog mushing to the winter games, and get rid of the sailing events. Depends too much on the weather.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 4):
1. The Olympic Committee has been seen to be anti-American in several recent decisions.

It has been that way for a long time.....Look at the 1972 US mens basketball team.

The IOC still refuses to admit they screwed them over for the soviets.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlinePbottenb From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 431 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3241 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 18):
The whole point of the complaint is ridiculous. There are no grounds for its inclusion in an international sporting festival because only about two countries play the game with any seriousness. How hard is that to grasp? What is the point of having it?



Quoting Banco (Reply 18):
ROTFL. you haven't a clue, have you? So because an American team consists of some Latin Americans, who are, presumably mostly still US citizens, that's international sport?

My mistake. There was me thinking that international sport consisted of countries being able to play each other.

You my friend, are the one lacking a clue. Very few foriegn playes on MLB team have US citizenship. Many return home to Venezuela, Mexico, the Dominican, Colombia, Japan, Canada and Austrailia during the off season to play in their countries very good leagues.

As far as "rules" for a sport being international, then I'd like to see where the big international competitions are for curling, you know that major sport where they slide rocks on ice?


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3236 times:

Quoting CamAir (Reply 21):
apart from a dozen of nations

Or more specifically, about three or four - plus a few with a passing interest.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
25 L-188 : Well just off the top of my head United States Japan Cuba Dominican Republic Venzualia Panama Brazil Nicaragua Honduras Taiwan Puerto Rico (considere
26 Post contains images CamAir : Since when do you use "Communist Castro Cuba" to underline and support your opinion?
27 Banco : Genuine question here: In terms of counting sides playing internationally, I would say it's where the national sides can compete against each other w
28 Lewis : If you wanna change the subject then no that was not the problem, the problem was negative publicity for many years before the actual events. Lets no
29 L-188 : Will all of the countries that I have mentioned are usually very strong competitors in the Little League World Series, I would say yes. I would also
30 RootsAir : Venezuela Before Baseball makes it into the olympics...Rugby should make it in before !
31 Banco : "Little league"? Sorry, you'll need to explain the difference, I'm afraid - is it amateur or something? You see, I'm asking whether it would be a fai
32 Post contains images L-188 : Yeah I know..... Under 14 kids league. But those kids grow up to become MLB players. I thought that was where you where going, which is why I didn't
33 Post contains images ILOVEA340 : Even team handball is played professionaly in more countries than baseball! The fact remains that Baseball is not a sport of any significance in Europ
34 Pbottenb : I would say that Cuba would have better than a 50% chance on any given day
35 Pbottenb : I thought this discussion was about the Olympics - not politics...
36 LH477 : Coz no body cares about the Baseball and Softball outside of the Nortern America's ( US, Canada, Latin America, PR and DR) and maybe Japan. If Basebal
37 LH477 : I am also suprised that our American friends haven't brought up the fact that American Football is not included in the Olympics.
38 L-188 : I think that we are aware that other then the NFL and that weird 3 down thing you play, it isn't that popular in other countries. Baseball on the oth
39 LH477 : Frankly, I don't care much for Canadian Football, I'd much rather watch the NFL. Go niners........ As for baseball, it may be popular, but it's not r
40 FDXMECH : How about the Expos and Toronto Bluejay's? Hmmm, I guess you're right. Venue? All you need is a city street with parked cars for 1st and 3rd, a manho
41 Cwapilot : Well, i guess ice hockey is going to have to go, too. There is a large league in a couple of large countries, as in baseball, and the rest is just a b
42 LH477 : The combined population is closer to 1.2 billion actually, I imagine you are kidding about Laverne and Shirley. As for following of a sport, America'
43 Cwapilot : Ummm....due to the lack of interest in that French speaking region for baseball, the Montreal Expos were bought out by the rest of the Major League B
44 Post contains links L-188 : Sorry can't agree with that view. Here is a list of countries that will be sending teams to the 2006 world baseball championship. I see North America
45 LH477 : You right...the Arguement goes both ways....Ice Hockey is mostly European and North American. It doesn't have any following in Asia, South America, A
46 Banco : Do the US put out their strongest team for this competition?
47 LH477 : How many of these teams are actually competitive? US, DR, Cuba, PR, Japan. How many can win the Gold? US and Cuba. The rest of the teams may not even
48 Cwapilot : I agree...and I don't actually think hockey should go...just using it as an example. I just want to get at why baseball is always the favorite target
49 L-188 : Well lets look at the US roster. Player Michael Barrett Lance Berkman Craig Biggio Barry Bonds Eric Chavez Roger Clemens Chad Cordero Carl Crawford J
50 Cwapilot : Pretty impressive roster, but it doesn't say anything about how they will play together. There were also many players who opted out in order to conce
51 Post contains images Banco : You can look as much as you like, but I still won't have a clue!
52 Mir : Japan has some major interest (I think baseball is the biggest sport there, moreso than soccer (football), and so does South Korea. There are even a
53 PROSA : The minimum standards for international participation (the number of countries in which a sport is played) are lower for the Winter Games, for fairly
54 PPVRA : Nope, never met a sould that even watches the game down here. There is a small community of Japanese that does play it, but most of the immigrants do
55 Post contains images LH477 : Do the brazilians have anytime left between football( soccer) and sex.
56 Pbottenb : Here we can agree - you dont have a clue!
57 LOT767-300ER : Im glad its thrown out... Softball is even a bigger joke...Ever seen a softball/baseball diamond in Europe? South America? Africa? Asia (except for Ja
58 Cwapilot : Poor, ignorant sod. Where, then, are these mysterious 115 countries affiliated with the International Baseball Federation? Surely, some of them have
59 Post contains images RobertNL070 : But The Netherlands also fielded (!) a team for the ICC Cricket World Cup in South Africa in 2003 - and lost by 'only' 68 runs from cricketing giant
60 Arrow : I don't think you can call Russia, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Sweden, Finland a bunch of also-rans. They are all capable of winning a gold medal, and
61 Cwapilot : Arrow, please do read everything before responding...if you red further, you will see that I am using the same absurd arguments used against baseball,
62 Arrow : OK. Point taken. But you need to work on your sarcasm technique (and please don't use those ridiculous smiley faces). I thought you were taking a ser
63 Aeroflot777 : Both of those are true international sports, and therefore it is not surprising they are in the Olympics. But baseball is not too popular throughout
64 Post contains links and images WrenchBender : Considering the USA is hosting this year, I think your statement is just a little on the funny side. http://www.wcc2006.org/ Get the Olympics back to
65 Post contains links Andaman : Baseball was imported even to Finland from US in 1930s, but they changed the rules a bit, I think it's more like American softball here. We have the N
66 Post contains images YOWza : Sports like everything else today is run by greed and revolves around money. 12 teams playing Olympic hockey: Canada, US, Czech, Slovakia, Finland, Ru
67 Pbottenb : Rhythmic Gymnastics????you call that a sport? I call it a subjective popularity contest of a bunch of prepubescent children running around on a wrest
68 Garnetpalmetto : Try again - as Cwapilot points out... Even Russia is a member, via the Russian Baseball Federation which consists of 38 teams and over 2200 players.
69 Flyboy36y : Baseball is not a US sport it is an American. Since America includes 2 continents, and becuase several major asian nations play the sport, i think it
70 Kiwiandrew : if include a minority sport such as baseball then you also need to include other sports played in only a handful of countries such as cricket or rugby
71 WhiteHatter : Isn't there supposed to be something like that already? Personally I don't care. If there is enough support for a sport to be included then it should
72 A319XFW : The problem with baseball is that the so-called "World Series" is (correct me if I'm wrong) in 2 countries - the US and Canada... How can you call tha
73 Post contains links and images Gman94 : Baseball is such a great international sport, I mean just look at the rosters for the Italian and Dutch teams. http://www.worldbaseballclassic.com/200
74 Mir : Just to clear something up: the World Series is called the World Series because a newspaper called The World used to sponsor it (long, long time ago)
75 Highpeaklad : I've heard of baseball, but what is softball? Chris
76 Gman94 : It's similar to Baseball but played with a bigger ball.
77 PROSA : A variation of baseball which uses a larger (though not much softer) ball that is pitched underhand rather than overhand. Women generally play softba
78 Pbottenb : WhiteHatter - I think you are spot on. While I like American Football - I dont think that it should ever be considered and Olympic sport. Additionall
79 Pbottenb : Hey man, Since you consider Ice Dancing such a major international sport lets look at the nationality of origins for the American team: Tanith Belbin
80 L-188 : I can just see Jim McKay now, "We now take you over to the Funk venue"
81 Gman94 : Where did I say Ice Dancing is a sport? Also Your argument is useless as Ice Dancing is not a sport. Any sport that needs a panel of judges to decide
82 L-188 : My opinion also. That would get rid of gymnastics, figure skating, water ballet, and diving.
83 Post contains images Mdsh00 : Ok then how about Venezuela? I think that some of the British posters are right. Cricket and Rugby are by far more international sports than Baseball
84 Post contains images KaiGywer : Or know what 1B, 2B, SS etc means Oh, and I'm not grown up with baseball, I just learned it after I moved here. Ehm, if you read some of his other po
85 Sovietjet : Amen to that. Yea...I hate it when i ask people about that and people go and try to defend it by saying "O but the players are from different countri
86 Post contains images PurdueAv2003 : I'm getting my 20 game package for the Pirates this year and am flying back to KC to catch a few of my Royals games, so guess where I stand! Kansan b
87 Mir : Maybe it's just me, but I don't see why they had to devote another sport to rhythmic gymnastics. It's pretty much the same as gymnastics, and belongs
88 Post contains images FDXMECH : Yeah, I know. It was too good to leave out, though. But to cover my tracks I didn't actually say Montreal Expos.
89 Gman94 : If the winner is decided by a matter of opinion then no it is not a real sport. Take Ice Skating even though it's like watching paint dry, one guy do
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