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Danish Envoys To Be Recalled For Fear Of Violence  
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2915 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2500 times:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc.../02/11/cartoon.protests/index.html


and yet with every passing day the reputation of the Muslim world sinks ever lower.......


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
87 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2495 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
the reputation of the Muslim world

"concrete security threats" are of course to be taken seriously. But it in reality would be sufficient to relocate the ambassadors and their crews locally to private places should a bit outside potential trouble spots. And such "concrete security threats" have nothing to do with the reputation of the Muslim World, provided of course that there is such a "world". I think, it is something like a "Christian World".


User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2481 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
and yet with every passing day the reputation of the Muslim world sinks ever lower.......

As if the West's reputation is any better over here.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2475 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
As if the West's reputation is any better over here.

The West's reputation must be good.......Arabs continue to flock to the West as immigrants. And utilize Western inventions, such as the internet (just like you are, right now).

The Muslim world seems to want the best of both worlds....access to Western technology and high living standards, but without supporting the freedom of expression and democracy that goes along with it. This is not kosher.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2471 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 3):
The West's reputation must be good.......Arabs continue to flock to the West as immigrants. And utilize Western inventions, such as the internet (just like you are, right now).

Great, the West uses Algebra (something the Arabs spread to the world), so I guess that makes us equal. Plus, the Arab World can't be that bad either, hundreds of thousands of Western expats come to work in the Middle East.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 3):
The Muslim world seems to want the best of both worlds....access to Western technology and high living standards, but without supporting the freedom of expression and democracy that goes along with it. This is not kosher.

Yyz, you've never been able to understand Muslims (or any non-Whites for that matter) in the past, and I doubt you will start to now. Muslims want high living standards, respect from the West, and democracy.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2471 times:

"The muslim world" is not what the relatively few extremists try to tell the world it was. Buying into that bizarre caricature (ahem) is just as shortsighted as they are.

If we can't be bothered to differentiate between different groups of muslims, how can we demand them to view us as great role models?


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2467 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 4):
Muslims want high living standards, respect from the West, and democracy.

You can achieve the 1st and the 3rd on your own. But you can't, or won't.

Respect from the West exists....in the West's liberal immigration policies that lets Muslims enjoy full Western freedoms and incomes.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 4):
Yyz, you've never been able to understand Muslims

Oh, I bet I understand the Muslim world better than you.....I can view it from afar, without emotion and with a critical, unbiased eye.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2461 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 6):
You can achieve the 1st and the 3rd on your own. But you can't, or won't.

We'll worry about what we can or can't do, the West doesn't have to do it for us.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 6):
Respect from the West exists....in the West's liberal immigration policies that lets Muslims enjoy full Western freedoms and incomes.

Umm, it lets every members of every other nationality who are eligible for immigration to enjoy those freedoms and incomes as well. Also, like I said, Do you have any idea how many Westerners are enjoying incomes they wouldn't dream of back home here in the Middle East? Don't flatter yourself too much. I would love to see how many Westerners who own Hummers, Patrols and Land Cruisers here would be able to afford the same back home.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 6):
Oh, I bet I understand the Muslim world better than you.....I can view it from afar, without emotion and with a critical, unbiased eye.

You? Unbiased? Past experience with you proves otherwise. Also, you forgot two very important things: uninformed & not understanding. You do not understand Arab/Muslim culture because you have been brought up differently - our values, understandings, priorities - everything is different. What might be seen as stupid cartoons in the West is seen as very deeply insulting here.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2452 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 7):
What might be seen as stupid cartoons in the West is seen as very deeply insulting here.

One of Canada's national newspapers this week published cartoons from various Arab newspapers in the last year, all of which showed extremely insulting caricatures of Westerners, Christians and Jews, far worse than anything the Danish newspaper printed. Funny how there was no Muslim outcry against these............

And yet, in our true civilized fashion, there was no Western violence or demonstrations against these Arab cartoons or Arab governments.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2452 times:

Source? Provide a link, or something at least, even if it is just a description.

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2450 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 7):
Also, like I said, Do you have any idea how many Westerners are enjoying incomes they wouldn't dream of back home here in the Middle East? Don't flatter yourself too much. I would love to see how many Westerners who own Hummers, Patrols and Land Cruisers here would be able to afford the same back home.

It should be noted, however, that the incredible riches of some few regions among the islam-dominated countries have not been created out of their societies but were a result of basically winning the "oil lottery" of happening to sit on otherwise worthless land which just so happens to contain something others want to pay for, handsomely.

I'm aware that much of "western" wealth has historically been robbed or stolen as well, but actual internal productivity has become the real strength of western (and increasingly asian) economies nowadays. I do watch with interest the attempts in several oil-rich countries to build up structures for the post-oil era, but that's small consolation for those nations who just happen to have no oil...

It is an oversimplification if "westerners" can't recognize the specific differences among the various societies, but relying on the rather fleeting glory of some countries' oil exports won't get muslims in rather undeveloped democracies (or outright autocracies) anywhere either.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 7):
What might be seen as stupid cartoons in the West is seen as very deeply insulting here.

I might have believed that if the cartoons hadn't been met with bored shrugs both by the danish muslim public and by the egyptian one as well (see the other thread) when they were first published many months ago.

As things stand, it looks mostly like a carefully stoked orgy of extremism, with many people's indignation being more a mass phenomenon than actual immediate emotion.

The cartoons were rather disingenuous, apparently published with malicious intent and I can understand that they are perceived as offensive, but the current excitement appears to be linked much more to other circumstances (and to active interference) than to the actual cartoons themselves.


User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2442 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
It should be noted, however, that the incredible riches of some few regions among the islam-dominated countries have not been created out of their societies but were a result of basically winning the "oil lottery" of happening to sit on otherwise worthless land which just so happens to contain something others want to pay for, handsomely.

Countries such as the UAE and Qatar could have easily turned into Saudi Arabia by just sitting on the oil and staying the same as they were God knows how many hundred years ago, but obviously that is not the case.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
I'm aware that much of "western" wealth has historically been robbed or stolen as well, but actual internal productivity has become the real strength of western (and increasingly asian) economies nowadays. I do watch with interest the attempts in several oil-rich countries to build up structures for the post-oil era, but that's small consolation for those nations who just happen to have no oil...

The oil-rich countries are working very hard towards this, and at the same time, nations without oil are trying their best to develop their economies. Look at Jordan, which is trying to develop its tourism and bring investments into the country like crazy - Jordan is a country with hardly and natural resources and a large population for a country of its size, with a very large poverty rate. The country is trying to develop itself as much as possible, and similar initiatives have been taken by several other Middle Eastern countries.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
It is an oversimplification if "westerners" can't recognize the specific differences among the various societies, but relying on the rather fleeting glory of some countries' oil exports won't get muslims in rather undeveloped democracies (or outright autocracies) anywhere either.

I come from a completley oil-free country, Palestine, and am a citizen of another country with no oil, Jordan. I am not trying to paint the Arab world in the same light, I am trying to say that it is unfair to claim Muslims are getting the best of the Western world through immigration when hundreds of thousands of Western expats live in the Arab world.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
I might have believed that if the cartoons hadn't been met with bored shrugs both by the danish muslim public and by the egyptian one as well (see the other thread) when they were first published many months ago.

But don't forget that they did not have nearly as much exposure as now. The masses were not aware of them, and now that they are, the reaction is obvious. But, there is definatley a lot of fueling involved, as things would have never gotten this out of hand if it wasn't due to a number of governments.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
The cartoons were rather disingenuous, apparently published with malicious intent and I can understand that they are perceived as offensive, but the current excitement appears to be linked much more to other circumstances (and to active interference) than to the actual cartoons themselves.

And what do you suggest these circumstances are?


User currently offlineAgill From Sweden, joined Feb 2004, 1010 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2438 times:

Apparently they are trying to get Danish tourists out of parts of Indonesia now because of death threats from some muslim extremist group.

User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2438 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
and yet with every passing day the reputation of the Muslim world sinks ever lower.......

As if the West's reputation is any better over here.

If we're so bad, why do so many muslims emigrate here?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 4):
Muslims want high living standards, respect from the West, and democracy.

Just where does burning embassies fit in with these factors?


User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2420 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 13):
If we're so bad, why do so many muslims emigrate here?

Because not everyone shares the same views. Also, I will ask the exact same question: if our reputation so bad, why do so many Westerners continue to live and come to the Arab world?

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 13):
Just where does burning embassies fit in with these factors?

Around the same place where invading innocent countries fits in with democracy.


User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2915 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2420 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
As if the West's reputation is any better over here.

That is because the various arab goverments continue to badmouth it in order to draw their people's attention away from internal issues.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 3):
The West's reputation must be good.......Arabs continue to flock to the West as immigrants. And utilize Western inventions, such as the internet (just like you are, right now).

The Muslim world seems to want the best of both worlds....access to Western technology and high living standards, but without supporting the freedom of expression and democracy that goes along with it. This is not kosher.

Could not agree more..... welcome to my RU list



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2414 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 14):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 13):
Just where does burning embassies fit in with these factors?

Around the same place where invading innocent countries fits in with democracy.

Saddam was innocent? I'll bet the several hundred thousand Iraqis he murdered would disagree.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2414 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
The oil-rich countries are working very hard towards this, and at the same time, nations without oil are trying their best to develop their economies. Look at Jordan, which is trying to develop its tourism and bring investments into the country like crazy - Jordan is a country with hardly and natural resources and a large population for a country of its size, with a very large poverty rate. The country is trying to develop itself as much as possible, and similar initiatives have been taken by several other Middle Eastern countries.

Yes, I'm aware of the efforts that are being made; It is very, very hard to modernize an entire society and economy at the same time without a massive influx of material resources. Some people presume that all it took was just a bit of good will, but that would neglect the large number of other factors which had been present in Europe, in America and in Asia.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
I am trying to say that it is unfair to claim Muslims are getting the best of the Western world through immigration when hundreds of thousands of Western expats live in the Arab world.

Maybe not exactly unfair, but certainly a bit lopsided without mentioning both sides of the story.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
But don't forget that they did not have nearly as much exposure as now. The masses were not aware of them, and now that they are, the reaction is obvious. But, there is definatley a lot of fueling involved, as things would have never gotten this out of hand if it wasn't due to a number of governments.

I do have my doubts about just "exposure" playing a role here - it seems that ingrained authoritarian customs (letting tribal, religious or political figures set the course) have had a larger role, at least for the relatively small minority of violent protesters.

Unflattering displays of christian symbols have prompted demonstrations in our societies as well, so muslims demonstrating peacefully (like today in Berlin) would be neither surprising nor objectionable. Hatred and violence, on the other hand, remain completely unacceptable and inexcusable.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 8):
One of Canada's national newspapers this week published cartoons from various Arab newspapers in the last year, all of which showed extremely insulting caricatures of Westerners, Christians and Jews, far worse than anything the Danish newspaper printed. Funny how there was no Muslim outcry against these............

And yet, in our true civilized fashion, there was no Western violence or demonstrations against these Arab cartoons or Arab governments.

That is unfortunately a fact.

I've just watched a news segment with actual excerpts from one of the major islamist propaganda satellite channels, depicting jews as slaughtering children to use their blood for baking bread!

Another excerpt from an islamist children program had an interviewer ask a little girl of three years whether she knew anything about jews. She said "yes", and asked whether she'd hate them replied "yes, because they're swine!"

 Angry  yuck   hypnotized   banghead 

It's vile, repulsive, inexcusable and should in fact have severe repercussions for any government which lets this kind of blatant hate propaganda happen under their watch!

These stations are widely watched and apparently nobody finds anything strange about it.


I wouldn't want muslims to stay silent when they feel insulted; But allowing shit like that islamist propaganda ("the west" is also often targeted, not any more subtly) to go without anybody feeling the least bit responsible is a much worse blot on any muslim's honour than a few childish cartoons in a xenophobic danish newspaper could ever be.


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2401 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
Unflattering displays of christian symbols have prompted demonstrations in our societies as well, so muslims demonstrating peacefully (like today in Berlin) would be neither surprising nor objectionable. Hatred and violence, on the other hand, remain completely unacceptable and inexcusable.

One would hope that the thoughts of your last sentence would be so widely accepted as to be self-evident in every culture. Sadly, as we have been reminded this past week, that isn't the case.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
I've just watched a news segment with actual excerpts from one of the major islamist propaganda satellite channels, depicting jews as slaughtering children to use their blood for baking bread!

And muslims are angry because someone in Denmark drew cartoons depicting their prophet?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
I wouldn't want muslims to stay silent when they feel insulted; But allowing shit like that islamist propaganda ("the west" is also often targeted, not any more subtly) to go without anybody feeling the least bit responsible is a much worse blot on any muslim's honour than a few childish cartoons in a xenophobic danish newspaper could ever be.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 


User currently offlineFrequentflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 736 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2399 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 14):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 13):
Just where does burning embassies fit in with these factors?

Around the same place where invading innocent countries fits in with democracy.

Fair example of bad faith, Congrats. Innocence has low evaluation criteria in your book it seems.

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 15):
Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
As if the West's reputation is any better over here.

That is because the various arab goverments continue to badmouth it in order to draw their people's attention away from internal issues.

Sounds obvious does it not?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
Unflattering displays of christian symbols have prompted demonstrations in our societies as well,

However more civilized than burning Embassies to the ground with implicit -read explicit- clearance from local governments. Add associated violence threats.



Take off and live
User currently offlineDahlgardo From Denmark, joined Sep 2004, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2399 times:

Perhaps someone with an Arabic background can explain to me, why the Arabs find it necessary hold Denmark as a country responsible for these cartoons ? In my world it must be due to ignorance ? Would it be fair for the entire West to hold ALL Muslims accountable for 9-11 ?

I've almost had it with this "peaceful" religion, and I regret the fact, the West depends on the Middle Eastern oil. I'm proud of my country and culture and I will not let any mid-evil regimes or religious fanatics/ignorants make me feel otherwise.

I'm pretty sure Muslim emigrants in Denmark are treated better than any emigrant would be treated in any Arab country, and still we have to take this crap.

br
Jakob
in Copenhagen



Nothing to say
User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1718 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2390 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 9):
Source? Provide a link, or something at least, even if it is just a description.

Here's a nice collection from a variety of Arab newspapers:

http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/asam_july_dec_intro_2005.htm

While the violence associated with this whole thing has certainly caused further damage to the Muslim world's reputation in the West, I don't think that's the most important impact.

Sadly, we are used to the violence in the Middle East and we expect that sort of behavior. No one in the West is really surprised to see an embassy burn.

I think what's different about this cartoon situation is the sense of surrealism and absurdity that surrounds the whole thing. People in the West are stunned that adult human beings could actually react this way to a bunch of cartoons. On the one hand, they know it's really happening. On the other hand, it's really hard not to laugh your ass off because it's so preposterous.

It is that utter lack of seriousness that will result in problems, not the relatively minor instances of violence.



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2385 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2360 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 7):
Umm, it lets every members of every other nationality who are eligible for immigration to enjoy those freedoms and incomes as well. Also, like I said, Do you have any idea how many Westerners are enjoying incomes they wouldn't dream of back home here in the Middle East? Don't flatter yourself too much. I would love to see how many Westerners who own Hummers, Patrols and Land Cruisers here would be able to afford the same back home.

LOL that is NOTHING compared to how many muslims Europe, the US, Canada and Australia have helped getting a better life. I know for a fact that there are over 5 million turks in Germany alone. And thats just turks. So the few westerners "enjoying" the middle east can be counted on one hand lol. we have helped millions and millions of muslims getting a better life, muslims that had to leave their own arab country because they were afraid of their dictator, or because their own country was not able to give them educations, etc. And what do we get in return? A lot of muslims thinking they can control our own countries. They are never satisfied before they have control of everything and they want their own culture and rules to apply in the country that helped them survive and give them an education.
I mean, do we EVER hear about chinese refugees here making trouble or not trying to follow our rules? NO! We never have to hear about them destroying things, because they are nice people and they are grateful for what they got. It must be a part of the muslim culture to be violent and not trying to adapt at all. If you think you are better off without us, fine! We would love to send you all home where you belong again if you can't behave. We don't need you.

regds,

Frederik - Copenhagen

[Edited 2006-02-12 01:40:08]

User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2312 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 3):
The Muslim world seems to want the best of both worlds....access to Western technology and high living standards, but without supporting the freedom of expression and democracy that goes along with it. This is not kosher.

People in the so-called "Muslim World" just do what everybody does and that is to take the best from all over the world.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 6):
unbiased eye.


??? unbiased ???

Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
might have believed that if the cartoons hadn't been met with bored shrugs both by the danish muslim public and by the egyptian one as well (see the other thread) when they were first published many months ago.

the reaction in Egypt then was the normal one. What has happened in recent weeks is amazing .

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 19):
more civilized than burning Embassies to the ground

looks as Denmark never got confronted with "full scale" demonstrations like the anti-WEF/globalisation-demos during which dozens of shops got destroyed and dozens of cars badly demolished and even put aflame. Beside the point that you exaggerate by saying "burnt to the ground" .

Quoting Dahlgardo (Reply 20):
why the Arabs find it necessary hold Denmark as a country responsible for these cartoons ?

A) because you say that THE Arabs .......
B) because somebody simply needed a scapegoat (sorry)

Quoting Dahlgardo (Reply 20):
I've almost had it with this "peaceful" religion

why this outburst of hostility ? true, those who attacked the two embassies of your country were Muslims, but it was NOT "this religion" which did it


User currently offlineDahlgardo From Denmark, joined Sep 2004, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2302 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 23):
A) because you say that THE Arabs .......

That is NOT something I just said. It's a fact. Anything to do with Denmark is boycotted in all Muslim/Arab countries. This is not just on a governmental level, but very much so by the general (Muslim) public.

How intelligent is that ?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 23):
B) because somebody simply needed a scapegoat (sorry)

How intelligent is that ?



Nothing to say
25 ME AVN FAN : really ? prove your theory ! not possible as NOT the case NOT intelligent but stupid, just as most of all boycotts. You can boycott a company, IF the
26 QR332 : No, it is because of the actions of the US and other Western powers. Do you expect Arabs to love you when you have invaded a fellow Arab country (Ira
27 Post contains links Dahlgardo : I see you do not understand what a free press is. If the press (tv/newspaper radio whatever) prints or broadcasts racist content, this will be a matt
28 Frequentflyer : Just open your eyes for a second. Convoluted! So Muslims dit in but unrelated to a Muslim issue? Now that your eyes are open, take a step back and wa
29 11Bravo : I don't find any of them particularly offensive because they are cartoons. Like I said before, it is completely inappropriate to react the way severa
30 Post contains links Klaus : Absolutely. That's been my position all along. Didn't remember the name right away, but here it is: Al Manar TV Intelligence and Terrorism Informatio
31 AirPacific747 : If you read what I actually wrote, I wrote that if you can't behave = destroying things, etc, then we don't need you. All the muslims that are workin
32 Halls120 : If it wasn't "the religion" which prompted the crowds to burn Danish embassies, what was it? There are millions of muslims in the US. Most of them we
33 AirPacific747 : Also, when you never see any muslims standing up and demonstrating against all the muslims who are being violent and threatening with terrorist attack
34 ME AVN FAN : they were NOT burnt DOWN, whenever put into flames, which IS a difference related to a Muslim issue does NOT mean that it was/is the religion as such
35 ME AVN FAN : the tyrant got gone but the Bush regime supported fundamentalism and the actual US politics reduced personal freedom in Iraq, and reduced freedom and
36 ME AVN FAN : Your quote is NOT from me & NOT from post 25 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You quote from another post, and make it appear as being mine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - ********
37 ME AVN FAN : it was instigators who were interested to cause trouble. instigators who wanted to cause problems for the regime in Damascus who had organised the de
38 ME AVN FAN : Demonstrating is NOT something normal people in Arab countries can do and are to do.
39 AirPacific747 : what do you mean by that? that is a natural thing to do if there is something you are unsatisfied about. I am not talking about violent demonstration
40 11Bravo : Calm down. I don't know how that happened. I used the Quote Selected Text feature. Obviously the quote is from QR332 in #26. Sorry, I honestly didn't
41 Post contains images Frequentflyer : We're bordering the play on words here... does not add much to the debate I am afraid. What a brilliant historical comparison... Personal freedom was
42 QR332 : Of course I am relieved, but look at the state the country is in now! The fact that he is gone has not made things any better and does not change the
43 Halls120 : What drove the instigators to cause trouble? Poor quality art?
44 Dahlgardo : OK, don't forget all these terrorist attacks and other dreadful acts in Iraq are carried out by Islamic fanatics in the name of Allah and his Prophet
45 AirPacific747 : It has nothing to do with protesting for the West, but more like protesting against any kind of terrorism, no matter where it is and who is involved.
46 Klaus : You see my point? The only thing you're doing is to evade any kind of co-responsibility or any condemnation. How many death threats have emerged from
47 Frequentflyer : It is Islam's biggest burden I agree with you for once, however I do not want to forget individual's responsibility on this: Muslim people have also
48 ME AVN FAN : According to the BBC ( Thomas Buch-Andersen Copenhagen, Denmark ) "" Many moderate Muslims in Denmark have been shocked by the violence and deaths aro
49 AndersNilsson : And yet with every passing day the reputation of the Danish people sinks ever lower....... Anders
50 ME AVN FAN : it may be "natural" but in most Arab countries you will hardly get a permission for ANY demonstrations and the risks to be arrested for months if doi
51 AirPacific747 : well if they are allowed to burn down embassies, then I am sure they are allowed to make a peaceful demonstration aswell. Plus I am not only talking
52 AndersNilsson : "well if they are allowed to burn down embassies, then I am sure they are allowed to make a peaceful demonstration aswell." No. If you live in a dicta
53 AirPacific747 : well lets just agree on that not every muslim country is a dictatorship, ok?
54 QR332 : And even those which are monarchies/sheikdoms, etc are nothing like Anders described. This is what I see Middle Eastern countries as today: -Lebanon:
55 ME AVN FAN : Let's have a look at the Arab countries west of Suez: Morocco : monarchy, but with democratically elected parliament + - prime-minister elected by th
56 Halls120 : And religion had nothing to do with it?
57 AirPacific747 : Pakistan: democracy Indonesia: democracy Thailand: democracy
58 ME AVN FAN : NOT really "nothing to do with it", but NOT a central aspect. At least not as central as the whole commotion might suggest.
59 Himmelstormer : I would take Pakistan off the list. I believe that Pakistan is ruled by the military and general Musharaf was not put in power through democratic ele
60 AirPacific747 : thats actually why I thought of Pakistan. Also because the Pakistani government coorporates with the US government. I dont know if the US government
61 Himmelstormer : I dont know if the US government would coorporate with the Pakistani government if it wasn't a democratic government[/quote] Well, many Western countr
62 11Bravo : Absolutely no question. General Pervez Musharraf took power in a 1999 Coup. Pakistan has had elected governments in the past, but it is a military di
63 Post contains images Halls120 : You have got to be kidding me. If you really believe this, I have a bridge to sell you.
64 ME AVN FAN : to repeat it, is maybe "religion-related" BUT is primarily a political power play. Religion used for political purposes.
65 ME AVN FAN : And just to have it on the records, I do NOT make the Danish government responsible for the vandalizing of Muslim graves in Denmark
66 AirPacific747 : you shouldn't either
67 Frequentflyer : Well you are not doing any favor to anybody that way...
68 ME AVN FAN : either ? you mean, the Danish government SHOULD be made responsible for that ?
69 Frequentflyer : No. You are stating the obvious and making it look like an award. I am telling you: 1/ the Danish Govt cannot be held responsible (wow we agree on so
70 ME AVN FAN : well, I do NOT have any desire to make them a present ..........
71 Himmelstormer : However, it does seem like you want this to go on. If you have a problem with the Danish government why don't you just come out and say it. At least
72 ME AVN FAN : you MISinterpret my comment, I do NOT have any problem in this regard
73 Post contains images Alberchico : What I don't understand is why the hell are embassies being burned and there is no Arab protest against that. Although I concede that Muslims may have
74 ME AVN FAN : "all the acts of vandalism" ? First of all, both the governments of Syria and Lebanon have clearly apologized for what happened. Second, you write as
75 Himmelstormer : quote=ME AVN FAN,reply=74]First of all, both the governments of Syria and Lebanon have clearly apologized for what happened. They only apologized when
76 ME AVN FAN : No, the Lebanese government apologized absolutely immediately, even before order got restored. Both governments AFTER the riots took every possible s
77 ME AVN FAN : There were the Danish, Swedish and Norwegian embassies in Damascus and the Danish one in Beirut. There were some demonstrations, but NOTHING like "on
78 ME AVN FAN : when ... or rather IF ? if ever ?
79 Himmelstormer : Iran Pakistan Indonesia Gaza Afghanistan I'm sure there are more places. I'm not talking of 'just' burned down embassies, but general rioting and agg
80 Agill : Himmelstormer: The lebanese government seem to have been taken off guard, but they are not an extreme police state like Syria. That the embassy in Dam
81 ME AVN FAN : - I spoke/speak about the Arab World, and in the list above, only Gaza would be in that category. Gaza is, to put it most mildly indeed, a rather spe
82 ME AVN FAN : to "carry signs" is NOT vandalism
83 ME AVN FAN : NOT to downplay, just to put the records straight there were Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians, Saudi Arabians and others.
84 Agill : It was reported that a surprisingly big group of palestinians and syrians had been arrested in connection to the burning of the embassy and vandalisa
85 Himmelstormer : I suppose you are right when you say it is not vandalism, but it is not exactly an invitation to peaceful dialogue is it? It is definitely an attempt
86 ME AVN FAN : there WERE many Syrians and Palestinians among the arrested, but THAT was NOT surprising. Surprising WAS the considerable number of "Bedouins" which
87 ME AVN FAN : THIS also applies to Syria. To describe the Assad regime as "moderate" may not exactly be the right word, but Syria is a secularist country with a fa
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