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Continuation Of NW Gay Discrimination Thread  
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11345 posts, RR: 52
Posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1448 times:

In the aviation forum, we were talking about this article, when we veered into a legal argument.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/po/20060212/...hwestrefusesgaycouplesawardtickets

I promised Poitin and company that I would respond to their posts, so here we go. (Bear with me, this post is rather long, but I think it is worth reading.)

The original thread may be found here: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets (by ChiGB1973 Feb 12 2006 in Civil Aviation)#158


Last time on a.net, Poitin said:

Quote:


OH, what about the case I cited. In fact, it goes far beyond that, it says it's none of the government's GODDAMN business. Whether or not you agree with Lawence is besides the point. It is current US consititutional law. As for Scalia, he is my legal god, but not the law. What matters is FIVE (5).

As for Equal protection, I said it was CONSISTANT WITH equal protection. That was a statement that it would be hard to attack. If you can not read legal statements when you see them, then you will have a hard time at the bar examine. READ THE WORDS!

You're not a lawyer. For one, I didn't expect you to give a "legal statement", and second, I don't normally give credit to those who claim to write a "legal statement" when they consistently get the law wrong. Please accept my apologies.

In any event, what the hell does "consistent with" equal protection mean? Are you making an argument by analogy? If so, you should say so. But even if so, why use Lawrence, a case where they expressly denied the Equal Protection claim? Substantive due process is about fundamental rights. Equal protection is about equal protection. Unfortunate as it is, there is no equal protection based on sexual orientation in the United States under the 14th Amendment.

Quote:

Getting back to the point, you have not shown that NW has any claim in any court other than California's courts under California law. NW is in deep trouble.

Northwest isn't the party requiring the claim!! Simple first year civil procedure: NW is the defendant, Anders is the plaintiff. It is Anders' responsibility to find a claim, not NW's. This case would be dismissed under FRCP 12(b)(6), "Failure to state a claim upon which relief may be granted."

Quote:
There is no interstate commerce issue here. ...
The plane was not going. It was parked on the ground. They were refused entry onto the plane while is was still parked on the ground in California, against California law. Where is the interstate commerce issue? Boy, do you need to go back to law school if you ever were there. And no, I do not teach law. I am retired.

Sigh...

Insults aside, first off, it is clear that if you went to law school, which I doubt, you did not go in the US, and you have never practiced here. It is first year law school learning that Congress's control in interstate commerce reaches much futher than the actual flight. (Otherwise, the FAA would have almost no power, for example.)

Sample readings to help you understand constitutional commerce, and what Congress may regulate, and what states may not:

Philadelphia v. New Jersey, 437 U.S. 617 (1978) (Dormant commerce clause)
U.S. v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549 (1995) (Defining Interstate Commerce)
U.S. v. Morrison, 529 U.S. 598 (2000) (Defining Interstate Commerce)

When you read these cases, I would suggest reading not just the first and last paragraphs, but the middle as well.

Quote:

So what federal law was offended? You have never answered that issue.

I've mentioned previously, but I will say it again:
The power of Congress to regulate federal taxes and interstate commerce is plenary (look it up), and as such, if it is controlled and regulated by Congress (which it is via the NLRA, FAA and the DOT), then no state may control it. Do not make the mistake of looking to a single specific law. It is the power of congress that is offended. And since taxes are involved, you can point to the single tax statutes as well. (Namely, the ones concerning employer fringe benefits.)

Quote:

For those of you wondering about our next legal beagle D L X, I looked up his two US Supreme court cases. I am still laughing. I stopped what I was going to do to share them with you.

These are his GENDER discrimination cases

------------------------

Craig v. Boren (The Thirsty Boys Case): 429 U.S. 190 (1976)


CRAIG ET AL. v. BOREN, GOVERNOR OF OKLAHOMA, ET AL.
APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE
WESTERN DISTRICT OF OKLAHOMA
No. 75-628.

Appellant Craig, a male then between 18 and 21 years old, and appellant Whitener, a licensed vendor of 3.2% beer, brought this action for declaratory and injunctive relief, claiming that an Oklahoma statutory scheme prohibiting the sale of "nonintoxicating" 3.2% beer to males under the age of 21 and to females under the age of 18 constituted a gender-based discrimination that denied to males 18-20 years of age the equal protection of the laws.

We conclude that the gender-based differential contained in Okla. Stat., Tit. 37, 245 (1976 Supp.) constitutes a denial of the equal protection of the laws to males aged 18-20 23 and reverse the judgment of the District Court. 24


RIGHT! BOYS CAN GET AS DRUNK AS GIRLS!!!

-----------------------------
And this is his second. PLEASE NOTICE THAT IS A JUSTICE GINSBERG DECISON.


United States v. Virginia (The VMI Women Case): 518 U.S. 515 (1996)

Justice Ginsburg delivered the opinion of the Court.

Founded in 1839, VMI is today the sole single sex school among Virginia's 15 public institutions of higher learning. VMI's distinctive mission is to produce "citizen soldiers," men prepared for leadership in civilian life and in military service. VMI pursues this mission through pervasive training of a kind not available anywhere else in Virginia. Assigning prime place to character development, VMI uses an "adversative method" modeled on English public schools and once characteristic of military instruction. VMI constantly endeavors to instill physical and mental discipline in its cadets and impart to them a strong moral code. The school's graduates leave VMI with heightened comprehension of their capacity to deal with duress and stress, and a large sense of accomplishment for completing the hazardous course.


For the reasons stated, the initial judgment of the Court of Appeals, 976 F. 2d 890 (CA4 1992), is affirmed, the final judgment of the Court of Appeals, 44 F. 3d 1229 (CA4 1995), is reversed, and the case is remanded for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.

It is so ordered.




D L X, you are very lucky that you never showed up in my court. I suggest you read the bloody law. Maybe you can understand it if you do.

What getting drunk and playing soldiers has to do with discrimination of the sort that has happen with NW is beyond me.

Night All.

And Scalia is my legal god, but he is not the law. Remember that.

I quoted it in its entirety so you and the rest of the readers would see everything in context. But, what we see here is Poitin taking the two seminal cases in Equal Protection under the 14th Amendment, and laughing at them as unimportant. Four things are important here: 1) Poitan has cut and pasted the first and last paragraphs of the cases, both abour 20-some pages long. I have to wonder if he read the middle pages, because, 2) if Poitin were a lawyer, he would have known these were the two seminal cases, as he would have been tested on them in school and perhaps even in the courtroom. 3) If Poitin were a lawyer, he would have at least been able to determine that the cases were supremely important and contained deep reaching doctrine. 4) Poitin is clearly not a lawyer. As such, I am not terribly concerned about showing up in his court.

Poitin's basic problem is that he does not understand what Equal Protection is. That's COMPLETELY understandable, because in my opinion, it's all messed up from a century of litigation in the Anglo-American common law system. Currently, there are three categories for examining Equal Protection, and I'll try to explain real quick what it took almost 3 years to teach:

Top level - Strict Scrutiny. These are cases concerning race mostly, and under that, it's mostly about affirmative action. Voting rights also shows up here. Basically, if the government wants to discriminate based on race, the legal rule is that it has to have a DAMN good reason (called a "compelling state interest"), and the discrimination must be extremely closely tied to the interest. (This is called "narrow tailoring.") These cases are extremely hard to win.
Mid level - Intermediate Scrutiny. These are the cases involving gender, and maybe rights of religious groups. Here, if the government wants to discriminate based on gender, the legal rule is that it has to have a pretty good reason, and the discrimination has to be "substantially" related to the interest. These cases are not so hard to win, but aren't easy either.
Lowest level - Rational Basis. These are basically every other kind of case, and at least currently, includes gay rights. Here, if the government wants to discriminate, the legal rule is that it only has to come of with a rational reason to make that discrimination, and the only limit on what the government can do is based on making sure the government isn't doing it out of hatred. So, the government can deny gay marriage (under Equal Protection!!) if they come up with a reason that is something other than "because we hate gays." The usual reason is "because gays can't make a baby."

Oh and by the way, you can support Scalia if it pleases you, but don't think for a second that an opinion written by Ginsburg carries any less weight than an opinion written by your "legal god" (who happens to be Ginsburg's best friend).

In case anyone was wondering, I am a third year law student at a top 10 law school. I don't say this to brag, but although I am by no means perfect, I do know what I am talking about, and have been published for what I have thought. I hope you found this informative.


Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1443 times:

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
In case anyone was wondering, I am a third year law student at a top 10 law school. I don't say this to brag, but although I am by no means perfect, I do know what I am talking about, and have been published for what I have thought. I hope you found this informative.

Yeah... Another Lawyer. Peachie....  sarcastic 


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1437 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 1):
Yeah... Another Lawyer. Peachie....

There are two in every case. The one you hate, and the one you hope saves your A*s.


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11345 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1430 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 1):
Yeah... Another Lawyer. Peachie....

Everybody has a side - no matter what the issue, they're either for it or against it. You could make the argument yourself, or you could hire help. (Just like you could cure your own disease, or you could hire the help of a doctor.)

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 2):
There are two in every case. The one you hate, and the one you hope saves your A*s.

Yes.

(You just earned my a spot on my respect list.)



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User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1424 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I have seen Am trak trains that have jumped the track and traveled less off track then what this thread has done.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1406 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
Everybody has a side - no matter what the issue, they're either for it or against it. You could make the argument yourself, or you could hire help. (Just like you could cure your own disease, or you could hire the help of a doctor.)

Well, it's not your case so I guess you'll have to ride it out and see the results. No sense it putting out a dissertation.


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11345 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1400 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 5):
No sense it putting out a dissertation

Only responding to those I promised a response to.

Besides, this was only 1000 words barely. That's not even a final exam's worth. Most of my writing for school is on the order of 30,000 words.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1391 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 6):
Besides, this was only 1000 words barely. That's not even a final exam's worth. Most of my writing for school is on the order of 30,000 words.

You sound like a perfect lawyer.


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11345 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1363 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 7):
You sound like a perfect lawyer.

Thanks!

It's a shame I don't get paid by the word.

(That's a joke, folks!)



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User currently offlineGeorgetown From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 239 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1308 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I'm going to jump in on the side of DLX here. Your legal analysis is right on the money and indeed, pertains to case law that even most undergraduates whith an interest in law know well.

Poitin, I really don't mean to flame you, but have you really studied law in the US? There are some very basic and fundamental flaws in your understanding of both the function of US law, as well as your understanding of how the structure of US government relates to its function.

The commerce clause really is key here; and beyond that, it's painfully apparent that it is.

Specifically, the mere fact that you had to look up Craig v. Boren speaks volumes. Also, why would you laugh at Boren when it absolutly applies in this discussion?

If you want to create a somewhat well framed arguement about all this you might want to spend some time reading the Mass. Supreme Court's decision in Goodridge et al v Dept. of Public Health. I hope you realize, however that it has no effect on federal law as it was a state court decision.

As it stands now, the US Supreme Court has never extended the EPC of the 14th Amendment to gay marriage. Equally important in this case is the obvious supremacy of the Commerce clause in this situation.

This is a pretty clear cut case in favor of NW no matter what anyone's political leanings. It plays directly into elementary federal case law.

I understand why DLX is writing so much, as this is stuff you encounter all the time in law school. Careful though DLX...unwritten rule: never drop law school rankings, it can only make you look foolish. Other than that, your legal analysis is correct and I'm on your side.



Let's go Hoyas!
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11345 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1279 times:

Quoting Georgetown (Reply 9):
Careful though DLX...unwritten rule: never drop law school rankings

Yeah, I went back and forth about that. I really didn't want to be seen as bragging in any way, but thought it was important that the reader knows that I'm talking about stuff that I should be expected to know cold.



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User currently offlineFlyboyOz From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 1985 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1268 times:

Wow! what a great debate! You are gonna be the best lawyer in the world. Well done D L X.


The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
User currently offlineUSXguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1017 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1258 times:

I used to be a pass bureau manager, so I know *all* about prize letters.

Each airline dictates whether a domestic partner can fly on the other airline or not.... just because my domestic partner can fly anywhere ABCAirways flies, they are not allowed to fly on some airlines, but has unlimited pass benefits on United, Virgin, Jetblue, and a few others.

This is all total bullcrap and should have been handled with the airline instead of going public. A simple call to Patty Ruth, the NW Pass Bureau Manager, could have clarified this, heck she may have even just decided to write out the pass.

Some airlines are very liberal. My past employer, JetBlue, and Air Tran (I believe) only requires an airline ID at the counter to passride on them and pay $25.00. Some will even let you take a friend (as I have done on JetBlue numerous times).



xx
User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3084 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1251 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 6):
Besides, this was only 1000 words barely. That's not even a final exam's worth. Most of my writing for school is on the order of 30,000 words.

I lost interest at about the 14th word.....Plus I really do not pay attention to arrogant people to which you are supremely guilty of being...

GC



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11345 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1248 times:

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 13):
I lost interest at about the 14th word.....Plus I really do not pay attention to arrogant people to which you are supremely guilty of being...

Well, I'm not sure how you came to that unfortunate conclusion. Did you read the other thread?

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 11):
You are gonna be the best lawyer in the world.

Well... let's see if I pass the bar first.  Wink



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineFlyboy36y From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3039 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1214 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 5):
Well, it's not your case so I guess you'll have to ride it out and see the results. No sense it putting out a dissertation.

Ohhhh! Score one for ignorance. Tell 'ya what, if you ever have legal problems I reccomend you try looking up the term pro se. Have fun with that.

Quoting Georgetown (Reply 9):
Poitin, I really don't mean to flame you, but have you really studied law in the US? There are some very basic and fundamental flaws in your understanding of both the function of US law, as well as your understanding of how the structure of US government relates to its function.

Hmmm, two words may shed a light on this: Thomas Cooley

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
Well... let's see if I pass the bar first.

You'll pass or else U of M takes away your JD.


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