VonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4624 posts, RR: 38 Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2108 times:
You know what, this might have not even happened if she and her partner were armed. Three things could have stopped it:
1. The suspect wouldn't have even chanced shooting at her in the first place for fear of getting in a shoot-out with well trained police. But knowing she's unarmed he took the chance because he knew she couldn't shoot back.
2. The officer managed to draw her weapon on the suspect before he had a chance to point his at hers.
3. She or her partner could have shot him in self defense if she felt her life was in danger.
Of course there's going to be lots of "coulda woulda shoulda" and the above scenarios might not have happened anyway, but IMO She would have had a few more options had she and her partner been armed.
If gun crime is on the rise in the UK, then there needs to be more armed officers. I can't believe with the level of crime in the UK (higher than Canada, and our police are armed) that unarmed officers are sent to burglary calls etc.
ANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2075 times:
Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 11): In fact she would have had more chance of being killed as the burglar would have shot to kill first time.
Hatter, that's not necessarily true . . . . an armed officer, approaching a subject, with a weapon already unholstered, present a lot less desireable target than one wearing only an apparently inadequate vest.
That said: I know this discussion on armed officers in the UK will go no where. You're absolutely right. That horse was killed dead over and over when the last young police officer was shot and killed in the UK several months ago . . .
The focus should be on hope this young woman pulls through and survives to continue to serve Nottinghamshire.
Miamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2069 times:
The saying is true, "When guns are outlawed, only the outlaws will have guns."
Knowing that the cops aren't armed is carte blanche for criminals who have the temperament to commit armed crimes to have a field day. Thsnk you very much, but I will keep my guns and my right to carry them (in my state, and others depending on the law).
In this day and age, with terrorism being a big thing, vigilance and a radio only goes so far. If my rear end is going into the line of fire, I want to be able to fire back.
WhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2065 times:
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13): That said: I know this discussion on armed officers in the UK will go no where. You're absolutely right. That horse was killed dead over and over when the last young police officer was shot and killed in the UK several months ago . . .
It's a valid duscussion point, but the British police are saying quite clearly that they don't want to carry guns for EXACTLY the reason I gave.
It is their opinion that more cops would die if they went about armed on a day-to-day basis. The British police have Armed Response Units available 24/7 which cover areas on a tactical basis, meaning ironmongery can be on site within minutes. But individual officers neither need nor want then hanging off their belts.
On this I am happy to go with their views. It has nothing to do with civilian gun ownership laws as the police are not covered by that. I'm also not going to hide behind posturing or anything like that, just defer to those who are in a better position to know about these things than I am.
We do have armed police. If they need shooters, they have access and training available to them. Some police officers walk round airports with Heckler and Koch submachine guns constantly, and have done for years. On the streets, they themselves have stated that they think guns create more of a problem than they solve.
WhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2045 times:
Nice the way in which you selectively quoted and missed this part
Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 15): On the streets, they themselves have stated that they think guns create more of a problem than they solve.
Laws of debate: You can argue from the general to the particular, but not from the particular to the general. Which means this is irrelevant
Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 16): You just have to wonder that if the particular officer who was shot could go back and change her choice.... would she?
But under the circumstances, she probably would not after thinking about it. As in the opinion of the police, she may have been shot fatally first time. That's what they believe, and I'll go with their informed opinion.
It is their opinion that more cops would die if they went about armed on a day-to-day basis.
I have to wonder if, given yesterday's events, their opinion might be changing. I don't mean that in a casual (ie: smart ass) manner either. I am just saying, how many officers have to be shot before they say enough is enough, we want to be able to protect ourselves when confronted with lethal weapons?
WhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2037 times:
Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 18): I have to wonder if, given yesterday's events, their opinion might be changing. I don't mean that in a casual (ie: smart ass) manner either. I am just saying, how many officers have to be shot before they say enough is enough, we want to be able to protect ourselves when confronted with lethal weapons?
When less police officers get killed in Britain than the USA on a per-officer ratio, then the answer is clearly no.
That is why they believe what they do. If they were armed, then more coppers would be killed. They can point to many years of statistics to back up that argument. Cold, hard statistics which they use to state that if they were armed then more coppers would today be dead.
It isn't my argument. It is the position of the police themselves. They have the experience of decades of real-life policing to put behind their position, and one isolated incident is not going to change that.
StuckinMAF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2035 times:
Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 17): Nice the way in which you selectively quoted and missed this part
It was not my intention to take anything out of context, here ya go....
Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 15): On the streets, they themselves have stated that they think guns create more of a problem than they solve.
Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 15): The British police have Armed Response Units available 24/7 which cover areas on a tactical basis, meaning ironmongery can be on site within minutes.
Which obviously was plenty quick in this case, right?
Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 17): But under the circumstances, she probably would not after thinking about it. As in the opinion of the police, she may have been shot fatally first time. That's what they believe, and I'll go with their informed opinion.
Making sure to get the full quote there and not just the pertinent portion.... Yes, it's obvious that the shooter in this case was going for a clearly non-lethal shot because it would not have been "fair" to kill a police officer that was not armed. But since she was not armed it was OK to seriously injure with a high probability of death.
You're right, I'm convinced and it can be plainly seen that it was much better that the officer did not have a firearm in this case. You win the debate.
Now, go explain that to her family if she doesn't make it. Make sure you take your White Hat.
Itsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2765 posts, RR: 10 Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2023 times:
Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 20): It isn't my argument. It is the position of the police themselves. They have the experience of decades of real-life policing to put behind their position, and one isolated incident is not going to change that.
And Hatter, I am not disputing that experience nor am I pretending to know better than those on the job there. I am obviously too Americanized but I cannot fathom being expected to encounter armed criminals without being armed myself, especially when these criminals have proven twice in a matter of months that they won't hesitate to shoot (and kill) a police officer whether he/she is armed or not. That being said, however, as you have pointed out, the officers themselves have said that being armed will only escalate the problem and I respect that.
I know it is - but we beat this horse up one side and down the other a couple months ago. I understand the UK police officers position . . . and I won't belabor it . . . . as far as I'm concerned the horse is still dead.
25 KaiGywer: OK. Before I get flamed, I'm originally from Norway (which is the only other country in Europe which is unarmed), so I have seen both styles of polici
26 WhiteHatter: The police here take the position they do not because of any outside pressure but from their experience. It's their argument that organised criminals
27 Banco: That's the key point though. The police would neither expect, nor be expected to confront armed criminals. The risk to police officers is much greate
28 Cornish: And if we put things into context, the number of officers shot in the UK is VERY small. We've had some terrible incidents like the current one and th
29 Thai747: Having lived for 2 years in the student area of Lenton in Nottingham where the shooting took place, I must say that I'm not very surprised given the r
30 StuckinMAF: But how can the criminals possibly be armed with the excellent firearms restrictions that the UK has in place? But how can the criminals possibly be
31 Banco: How can US police officers possibly get hurt when they carry guns? Knives as an offensive weapon are. Here's a question: Hoiw can someone with absolu
32 WhiteHatter: but how can someone with no experience of British policing presume to know their job better than they do? Grow up.
33 Cornish: And guns are still used in a tiny, tiny proportion of major crime in the UK. What are the proportion of gun crimes in the US and how many officers ar
34 StuckinMAF: Nobody EVER said they couldn't. At least they have the tools they need to defend themselves when confronted by potentially lethal force. So why are h
35 KaiGywer: Numbers are good, let's look at numbers: USA Since 1995 Officers killed by a firearm: 544 Total number of Law Enforcement Officers: 796,518 Ratio: 54.
36 Noelg: Moving out of that craphole is the best move we ever made. Nottingham is a dangerous place, no doubt about it. I don't like my wife going there alone
37 Gman94: How has the crime in Nottingham become that bad though, nowhere else in the UK seems to have the kind of problems that Nottingham is dealing with.
38 Noelg: Nottingham's gang culture takes a lot of the blame for this. There are 2 main gangs in Nottingham from where most of the gun crime comes. One thing j
39 Banco: With all due respect to the problems in Nottingham, Los Angeles it ain't.
40 Smokescreen: Many people think that "an offensive weapon" is all they are... These are interesting numbers. Does anyone know the number of police officers in the
41 L-188: And actually from a purely tactical perspective a pistol/handgun is a lousy offensive weapon. It is only good for close quarter-defensive operation.
42 GDB: As demonstrated, the numbers PROVE the unarmed UK police are much, much less likely to die from firearms. Even less likely to shoot themselves or each
43 Highpeaklad: I think Nottingham's just got a bad luck at the moment. As people have said most gun crime is gang related and usually these things run their course.
44 Jaspike: Saw this on the news a few weeks ago. Quite interesting: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/4604116.stm The number of shootings in Not
45 KaiGywer: From 1995-2004 Slain with own weapon, stolen by assailant: 36 (total deaths: 93) Slain with own weapon, not stolen by assailant: 18 (total deaths: 49
46 MDorBust: Shoot to injure? What, was he a physician and an expert marksman? What a load of BS. Only people who have never handled a weapon or watched too many m
47 777236ER: Regarding the Hungerford shooting, this should be sobering reading for those pro-gun people on here: Most of Ryan's weapons were not illegally owned,
48 MDorBust: There is of course one important thing you are missing here... If in a state such as, Texas, this were to happen... statistically speaking, more than
49 L-188: He used them I didn't-Why should I and every other gun owner be punished for his crime. The guns didn't do it, they are only object.
50 ANCFlyer: Same with Alaska . . . he'd have been swiss cheese before he could have reloaded . . . if he even got that far.
51 Scbriml: But in the UK the number of burglaries committed by armed criminals is, as a mathematician would say, a number close to zero. Why are just about all
52 StuckinMAF: And on that note, let me insert one of my VERY FAVORITE links! Here's the link to the "Smith and Wesson GUN-CAM". http://www.roughwheelers.com/monteg
53 StuckinMAF: I found several articles when I did a Google search for "UK armed home invasion". Here's a page with links to some of them: http://www.keepandbeararms
54 Searpqx: Before I start this - let me make it very clear - I am not a gun control proponent - I grew up around guns, I hunted and I don't have a problem with a
55 11Bravo: Looks like they caught the low-life who shot this PC. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/4726580.stm
56 GDB: Yes, some in the wanky, stupid, armchair expert press, claimed it was the Police being affected by the mythical 'PC' factor in not identifying the sus
57 Halls120: There is no doubt that the UK has been blessed with a low violent crime rate for a long time. But is that changing? According to Reason Magazine in 2
58 LTBEWR: First of all, lets hope this officer survives and recovers fully. There are many long and deeply historical reasons for our far more open attitude tow
59 Zarniwoop: I lived on Lenton Boulevard (the road where she was shot) when I was at uni in Nottingham. Quite a few houses near me got broken into but thankfully n
60 BMIFlyer: Good!! So, i guess he was trying to flee the country? Lee
61 GDB: LTBEWR has it right, the drug trade is largely to blame, but countering that is a whole different question. I would also question an article comparing